Column Moving ground is not the answer Everyone is making out that moving or improving the ground will take us back on track to the top. Then you're wrong. It is major investment that takes you to the top and the ground will be brought on after the investment in our club. Gordon Soames 02/08/2007 65comments | Jump to last I am probably not the only one but I am sick and tired of the ground debate. What people need to realise is that the ground should be second on the agenda. First on the agenda should be major investment into the club. It is obvious Bill Kenwright either doesn't want major investment for whatever reason or he and his board cannot talk anyone into investing into Everton FC. How many times have we missed out on major investment? I am 99.9% sure that if we want to match the top Premiership sides then you need major investment. Not move ground! Look at what the likes of West Ham, Wigan, Fulham, Sunderland and Portsmouth are now doing. All clubs finishing below us, or just promoted, who have a board with money to back the manager and have the finances to develop there ground or move ground. There is no point in moving ground if we have nothing to back us up after that. Everyone is making out that moving or improving the ground will take us back on track to the top. Then you're wrong. It is major investment that takes you to the top and the ground will be brought on after the investment in our club. Liverpool, Man utd, Chelsea and even West Ham to a certain degree are now proving that major investment is the way forward. There is no proof we will bring in much more income if we move to Kirkby and we certainly dont have the backing to put 40, 50, 60 million pounds towards a stadium in Liverpool, which is what everyone wants, including me. Arsenal are a perfect example of that. Bigger club than us at the present moment but not very well backed. They moved to a new ground and are now in massive debt, struggling to match the top 4 clubs around them in the transfer market (man utd,chelsea,spurs,liverpol). They were ready to move onto the next level after building a tremendous team of young talent and without the backing to build on that they have put the money into moving to there new ground leaving the doors open for people like Henry to move on. Which brings me back to our situation. We're ready to move onto the next level in terms of reguarly finishing in the top 6. WE need major investment to do this in terms of matching the above teams in the transfer market, or at least increasing the numbers of our squad with decent players to keep us fighting in and for European cups. Only then can we look at moving ground. The KEIOC have proved that the supporters do have a say and will be listened to. The board would have agreed to move to Kirkby by now if the KEIOC hadn't have formed. I agree to a point where I want our club to stay in Liverpool, but I am only willing to back the KEIOC if our loyal support are willing to be heard once again! I want us to stand up and force the board to get major investment into our club. I don't believe for one second that investors from USA and Europe are looking at clubs like Birmingham, Portsmouth West Ham and even lower league sides, yet they wont look at us. EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB. We are ready to make a big step forward and that step requires major investment. We the Everton support are the only ones who can force us back to the top again by forcing are issues onto the Everton board and making them listen. Reader Comments Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Nick Toye 1 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:15:16 Report abuse Ok, the reason we are lacking in investment is because the club are not an attractive proposition and the stadium doesn’t generate enough money.That really should be the end of your argument to be honest.Who in their right mind is going to want to invest into Everton when they have a decrepid stadium that doesn’t make any money. An investment is made to increase revenue for all parties, it isn’t a donation.KEIOC should never be heard because they are a disgraceful excuse for an organisation. Who shows their own fans misbehaving as a way to stop Kirkby backing the project? Do they think that will help the club? Idiots, each and everyone.As for your last paragraph, West Ham got investment, Birmingham are getting it and Pompey got it last year. Why? Because they are thinking forward and remembering the past which is obviously what you are doing. Nick Toye 2 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:23:09 Report abuse *EDIT*and remembering the past which is obviously what you are doing. should sayand not thinking about the past which is obviously what you are doing. John Charles 3 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:34:52 Report abuse Agreed with first reply:Moving to Kirkby makes Everton a much stronger business acquisition. Its black and white. Investors want ROI, if they have to build a new stadium and repay the debt themselves there is not ROI. A ’free’ish stadium at Kirkby puts us probably the most attractive club to invest in in the country that hasnt already been taken. Art Greeth 4 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:30:18 Report abuse Hmmm... scratching my head in bewilderment at your perverse logic, Gordon.There’s me thinking the tri-party deal between the club, Tesco and Knowsley Council neatly takes care of a pressing need for the club and as such can be considered a badly needed investment which helps secure the club’s future in the short and long term.Or do you prefer your investment money to come in the form of used fivers...? Nick Toye 5 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:53:16 Report abuse Clearly a KEIOC member. No substantial logic anywhere in sight.It has to be a realistic option for moving the club forward, nothing apart from Kirkby makes any sense.KEIOC are just an amateurish group with no agenda other than to disrupt the progress of this club. Nick 6 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:00:28 Report abuse a bit weak there I’m afraid. Of the clubs you listed: - West Ham - looking to get a stadium via the olympic games - Wigan - new stadium.- fulham - have been quoted as wanting a new stadium but are a bit screwed for cash (sounds familar?)- Sunderland - stadium of light?- Portsmouth - looking to move.Sorry but what you have proven is that we need to move to just keep up with those clubs below us. I really don’t want us to move from Goodison I’ve never forgiven the board for the FU over the Kings Dock debacle but if there are no real concrete alternative offers on the table what can we do? Paul 7 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:49:37 Report abuse Before I get to the stadium issue - since when have West Ham, Portsmouth and Sunderland been shining examples of the way forward?! Both Portsmouth and Sunderland where miles behind us in terms of quality and they have both spent massive money on dross (5.5M on Richardson case in point). It’s not ambition, it’s stupidity. I don’t think I have time to talk about the mess West Ham are going to be in very soon. The only team moving away from us is Tottenham. They have a top class stadium, an excellent footballing structure and infrastructure in place and they are based in London. The money they now have to spend is largely down to the excellent management of their previous administration. A new modern and exciting stadium coupled with the new training facilities will give the team an excellent infrastructure, be an attactive prospect for potential signings and provide a greater potential for increased revenue which will show a potential investor that Everton have a good business in place.At some point in the near future, we will need to rennovate or build a new stadium. Doing it now gives us a major retail partner and the full backing of a local council. Why wait? The only question that needs to be answered is if Kirkby is the right place for it. Dave Scott 8 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:13:50 Report abuse Does the current ground not deter investors and it’s all part of the jigsaw? Barry Lightfoot 9 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:30:21 Report abuse I have to say that’s the biggest load of tosh I’ve heard so far. "Gee Whizz fellas I’ve got a great idea lets pump a load of cash into that there Goodison Park so It can be frittered away on players wages, transfer fees and rust prevention and the bonus is..er Oh damn there isn’t one".If I was in the anti Kirkby mob I’d get this deleted ASAP. toffee rapper 10 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:31:23 Report abuse just sick of all this. vote yes, itd be worth it just shut the KEIOC up. Gareth Humphreys 11 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:35:24 Report abuse Lets just see what the outcome of tomorrows presentation is at St Georges Hall. I don’t feel anyone can vote without knowing what they are voting for or against. I urge everyone who can get there tomorrow to do so. John 12 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:17:29 Report abuse I have to agree with the post by Paul to a degree. Upton Park/Boleyn Ground call it what you will does not hold nearly as many as Goodison and is certainly no example of a good ground.I do believe there is some truth in Gordons opinion. Is St. Andrews a ground to die for ? Not as far as I am concerned and yet they are also being looked at in terms of investment. It seems very strange, to me at least, that nobody, but nobody, has apparently earmarked Everton as a possible target for investment.I am not a member of KEIOC and have no alliance/allegiance to them whatsoever. However I do believe that the move to Kirkby has not been thought out at all well. To have the CEO of a large company admit to not having a Plan B is tantamount to dereliction of duty. Even if the alternative is equally abhorrent to the fans there has to be a Plan B !Just my two bobs worth. toffee rapper 13 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:38:26 Report abuse sorry gareth but someone at KEIOC shot his load too early and sent pics of the redesigned goodison to the echo. If the rest of the presentation is as pathetic as these pics here I wouldnt waste my time hearing the shite that goes with it. Betty Dungeon 14 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:12:48 Report abuse yes. I am sick of the stadium debate. i have had to endure more stadium debates than a salford whore has had ceilings. i dont want to sound like the needles stuck but staying with the old lady is incomprehensible. Not will a move to Kirkby (if that is our intended move) be a much better option and a future if not long term solutuion for the side and club as a whole. I have been a supporter since around 1989. (only 30 years old) I have been to Goodison on about 17 occasions and to be quite frank after about the first two times the magic or any superior feeling i might have had was quickly vanquished. (the wimbledon 94 being a notable exception). I was there in person for the Portsmouth game this year and whilst waiting outside (toilet) dodging excrement and urine for the aforementioned toilet and once inside , well it was not a pleasnt experience. Of course if you want to be sentimental or nostalgic lets stay where we are, and watch as my (our, your) beloved team falls into a state of disrepair and stands more than ever in liverpools shadow. (which could be quite literally incidentally) If one trophy in 20 years is all we have to show for with in current state of affairs then just think what will happen with both schools of thought for both staying where we are and for a move with investment to a new stadium. I am going to stop there as I could sit here an comment on this until the titanic reaches new york. I just hope we dont go down as fast as the ill fated liner if things turn out for the worst or if someone does not get their way. Strewth 15 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:02:59 Report abuse I don’t know if BK and EFC are chasing away an orderly queue of investors clamouring to put money into EFC. Thing is Gordon nor do you or anyone else for that matter. So we have to go on what we know which is we have no money for investment, a crumbling stadium and fragile operating finances. We’re skint. Something not likely to change anytime soon. With Tesco and KBC we could be in a modern 50,000/60,000 seater stadium by as soon as 2010/11. No its not a world beater - but beggars can’t be choosers and it actually looks good and would provide a sound enough new home on which to move things forward on the park. We get to this position without incurring anything like the additional debt incurred by other you mention. Now ask yourself Gordon if we go with this are we likely to be a more attractive proposition to investors than if we stay as we are? steve w 16 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:35:48 Report abuse ok lets move to kirkby then,evrything will be great , we will get loads of investors fawning all over us, every player will want to come to us and we will win loads of trpohies!!!! why do people auotmatically think ground move = sucess? as kw stated after 3 years of the new ground money will have to come from generated success on the pitch and not necessarly the ground! magicjuan 17 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:47:28 Report abuse obviously I’m missing the point on kirby because we’re going to get an extra 10 million after all this hassle, I’d be extremely happy if we had 10 million now. So ’extra’ ? I can’t understand why some here are so anti KEIOC, that to most blues would be an heroic thing to promote, but instead it shows that some are all too willing to swallow BK & KW utterances and misrepresentations and inaccuracies without question. The blind leading the blindly nodding. All you have to do is have a look, try bluekipper they have a better image if shiny is what you want!! We’re talking about a football ground not a pizzaria with a bowling alley where you can sip chilled wine! Sneaker 18 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:46:57 Report abuse Dear fellow blues supporters,Having read lots of mis-spelt and incoherent rants from Everton supporters I make a few simple, yet in my humble opinion salient, points :- 1.History and tradition wins nothing. See Burnley, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forrest et al. 2.Liverpool supporters will not stop the rivalry banter just because we stay in ?Liverpool? (whatever that means??) See ? ?. Erm shit Macca, I wuz gonna take de piss outta dem blue nozez, bur eeeemm, now they?re staying in Liverpool I can?t think of any suitable cadish jibes to tease them with ?. Eeeerrmm ?. Aww fuck???? 3.Everton are, to put it frankly ???.. potless ?.. Ergo, even if we find an alternative site to Kirkby, we have to find an alternative partner. I can?t wait to see the blues running out at the ALDI stadium. 4.Having read a fair amount of ?Let?s not give in to the redshite by being booted out of the city, it?s our city and we were here first!!!? This is surely a kick-back to the days of my dad?s bigger than yours isn?t it ??? ?Ey Thommo, I caught your little Johnny playin? on the Goodison Park slums the other day ? he could ?ave been killed ??. ? ?Yerr, burr at least he would ?ave been killed within the Liverpool boundaries eh ?..!? 5. Although I have no concrete statistics, I suspect that no more than 50 or 60% of the crowd at every home game actually live within the city boundaries. 6. Imagine the glee that all the whinging, moaning, negativity and bickering is giving to our dear friends across Stanley Park, who have coincidentally just unveiled a 300 million pound airport terminal, sorry, I mean stadium. 7. Please guys, lets all play nicely together like big boys should do eh ??.. 8.NOW CAN WE PLEASE ALL GROW UP AND STOP BEHAVING LIKE A COMPLETE LOAD OF FUCKIN? CHILDREN !!!!!!!?? and let?s all stand on a cliff top, hand in hand, looking out to sea and holding a bottle of coke teaching the world to sing the Z-cars theme ??. walton lad 19 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:55:39 Report abuse Agree totally with Gordon Soames. Just heard on Sky Sports that Alan Smith hopes to complete move to Newcastle in next 24 hours. If that doesn’t convince some of you that we are rapidly losing the chance to consolidate our top 6 place in order to pay back Kenwright and save money for the ground move. The team comes first and the move second. Sneaker 20 Posted 02/08/2007 at 18:48:42 Report abuse I too am saddened by the fact that we?ll probably miss out on the signature of Alan Smith, but I don?t think it so much the actual transfer fee that?s the problem as much as the 60k per week that Newcastle have offered him. And until our revenue streams increase so that we can afford to pay those kind of wages then this situation will keep happening ad infinitum.Having said that, personally I don?t think Smith?s contribution would warrant 60k a week when you?ve got Mikkel Arteta on 35k per week ? Rupert Sullivan 21 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:04:59 Report abuse Gordon, I agree with your article whole heartedly. The team needs to be successful before moving, the move per se will not bring success. Paul M 22 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:41:49 Report abuse Its case proved then Walton Lad. Alan Smith is going to Newcastle so EFC dont need a new stadium. Where did you develop that gem of a theory, in a KEIOC think tank ! Steve 23 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:57:32 Report abuse As a few have already pointed out we havn’t got a pot to piss in. Why are we trying to cut our own throats, the kirby move is a gift horse, we would be mad to turn it down. EL TEL from Tesco (Terry Lehay) is not only a lifelong Blue, but one of the most astute business guys in the UK. Joing forces with one of the UK’s most prominent business’s has a better feel than Bestway. As for the loop site, what a loopy idea for a stadium site, may as well sit in the middle of switch island.A True Blue would follow his team anywhere, Kirby here we come. Big Bill 24 Posted 02/08/2007 at 20:39:32 Report abuse Toffee Rapper, I would love you to come to St Georges Hall and introduce yourself to KEIOC.Then you would realise what and who the group consists of instead of listening to the shite Wyness has been coming out with. Please Please come tommorrow, as I am the group would like to meet you. Dan Masters 25 Posted 02/08/2007 at 20:51:01 Report abuse To all you cloud cuckoo people who keep saying we need a new stadium to get investment... and particularly Nick Toye who describes Goodison as decrepit and cites Portsmouth in his claims:If Goodison is decrepit, what exactly does that make Fratton Park?!!!Portsmouth are spending big NOW and now planning a fantastic new stadium. The investment has come FIRST and the stadium will be city centre and mainly funded by an enabling scheme of 600 apartments.Good argument, Gordon. Thank you.Kenwright has to go OR bring in investment... he is pauper amongst princes financially. Vote No and bring the buffoon to his senses. I’m sick of the way he is setting us at each others throats. Wake up, fellow Evertonians! Andy L 26 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:15:53 Report abuse I applaud the idea of free and open debate on all issues facing EFC. But how come we have so many armchair analyses going round at the mo? Surely, it’s just too simple to separate the ground move and investment and pretend life would be easy if we just had one of those (but not the other). What is moving to a new ground (irrespective of location) and yet (if you accept the official line) not having to pay more than 10m, if not MAJOR investment? Whatever the merits of EFC-Kirkby, surely they include a step towards bringing in investment (more seats/exec bozes, blah blah)? Not all investment has to be fat blokes writing fat cheques. walton lad 27 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:13:41 Report abuse Paul M obviously reads what he wants to see. I said strengthening the team (to a sensible degree) comes before a move. Alan Smith would have been a good buy andapparently the club -if you believe their bid of 2 years ago was genuinely meant - once thought that. If you’re saying we can go in to a new season with the current squad your obviously in the pay of Bill Kenwright! Nick Toye 28 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:28:27 Report abuse Dan Masters, Goodison Park is decrepid, its falling down and is costing us money to maintain each year. It is a sieve and gate receipts are just absorbed by the running costs of an old and dated stadium.Portsmouth get investment because a) they are on the south coast and are more attractive than most, and b) they are the only team in their city and are not fighting with rivals like we are.They obviously see potential in Portsmouth, potential that is not apparant with Everton.For the record I don’t want to go to Kirkby I want to stay at Goodison, but I also want us to have a stadium that is going to generate money.The Kirkby Project is going to give us that and at very little cost to ourselves. In comparison to Arsenal who have had to sell Henry to finance new signings.Also Dan, if Kenwright goes what will that do? Will that open the door for a rich American to invest? Why would he invest in a club that does not make money without selling players? So I ask you where do you think the money is going to come from? Nick Toye 29 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:37:04 Report abuse Ok, do we all think that if we make this move to Kirkby we won’t be able to spend on players? So we should save up our money? Put in a high interest account? Is that how it works?Bottom line is we need to attract investment, and its not going to happen in the current stadium. walton lad 30 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:37:21 Report abuse There was a rumour that the club would announce the signing of Alan Smith just before we voted on the move in order to create a feelgood factor - as if anyone at EFC would know how to do that! Anyway if there was any thought of creating a feelgood that intention is rapidly falling by the wayside with every day that goes by without a signing. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how the club fails to appreciate the massive lift good new players give to the club and how they can provide an impetus for the new season. It is also clear that many of our players (judging by their public comments) felt the same. Of couse, sensibly - or under instructions - seeing the almost complete lack of transfer activity they have all gone quiet on this subject! Dan Masters 31 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:47:33 Report abuse Nick Toye: ’ Portsmouth are on the South Coast and therefore more attractive’ What, like Bournemouth? They have crowds barely more than half ours and believe me, although Pompey are in sunny Hampshire, Portsmouth is very similar to Liverpool with big Navy and Port traditions and plenty of run down areas.They have potential though and so do we. In fact, we have much more! Stop selling us short. We need to generate cash, you are right. But, you just assume that Kirkby will solve everything. It won’t. I don’t blame you for falling for the glossy hype and low down tactics ( using Arteta is as bad as hooligan images portrayed by KEIOC ) but the simple truth is that even if KW is right and we have an extra £10m a year, it won’t be enough.We have entered a new era where local Factory owners or even Theatre impressarios don’t have the financial muscle. Kenwright is a goldfish in a pond of piranhas and he needs to see that and get some help. He’ll have to give up his absolute power, but that’s the way it is. Kirkby is flawed and so is BK. Sad, but true. gj 32 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:09:42 Report abuse If we leave for Kirkby then Everton FC in the long run will die.If you don’t get it then we are all in trouble. It’s us fans that make the club and there won’t be many to go around when all future scousers will be supporting LFC.So get real and stop thinking short term. We so need a new stadium. There is no doubting that, but we also NEED to stay in Liverpool. Art Greeth 33 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:22:08 Report abuse Dan Masters: "using Arteta is as bad as hooligan images portrayed by KEIOC".Well, that’s a winning argument, isn’t it? Masterful, Dan, masterful... Mike 34 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:24:13 Report abuse I don’t see Kenwright as Satan or Kirkby as his Satanic Hall. I’m not especially fond of Walton either, to be honest.However, no real case has been made to move anywhere larger other than the wishful thinking of those desperate to escape the red shadow. A kind of ’Things can only get better’ dream of thousands of extra fans, filled corporate boxes and endless media shots of smiling new arrivals on the playing staff. ’No’ voters are often urged to get real. May I suggest the same procedure to yes voters? Steve Corley 35 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:08:34 Report abuse To be honest I think the current KEIOC plans to develop Goodison/the ’Loop’ are somewhat ?pie in the Sky? as Everton’s current finances certainly don’t allow for a redeveloped Goodison (and the thought of the incorporation of hotels in to the scheme to help finance it somewhat fanciful in deed) - that being said, I will be at St George’s Hall tomorrow to see the plans in more detail, as the future of this great club is too important to ignore other options to the current and must say flawed one in Kirkby. I have real reservations concerning the earning potential, as we would have to near enough double our Goodison match day income to make £10million available for transfers each summer (and that?s a pretty modest total). This during a time when attendances for established Premiership clubs outside the top 4 are falling as fans become ever more disgruntled with the modern game, I fear that Everton?s attendance projections are overstated and that a move to Kirby could see a haemorrhaging of our support to levels lower than currently seen at Goodison. toffee rapper 36 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:27:13 Report abuse big bill will there be a buffet or is it strictly byo butties n crisps like?I just heard a rumour that bestway arent gonna be there, sending a PR firm instead! sounds like there is no buffet after all...Is tom gonna unveil the real mock-ups for the new stadium hes gonna build for us like? I saw one in the paper but that wasnt it surely! Cos its pants actually.KEIOC keep sayin wait n see, you’ll all change your minds when you all see how great our plan is for the new stadium, so this must be good ole Tom building up to the real unveiling! what a showman! Can’t wait!!! ROBBO 37 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:34:46 Report abuse I agree with you Gordon!! to me this ground move vote /debate has been a great PR exercise for billy and baldy!! hiding from the fact that we have not improved our squad as such! 8 player 1st team/ players gone since last summer!! 2in!!?? we were told and i quote that we will be actively taking part in the transfer window with players finding everton an attractive place to go with european football on offer, with baldy quoting we will back our manager in bringing player in!! when??? were a laughing stock in the transfer market always offering less than what clubs have accepted/want!! so Bill do us all a favour and go and do what you do best a panelist on a talentless show!ps i agree we need a new ground but also a new board!!! jim mcmahon 38 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:08:19 Report abuse I dont see a queue of investors forming now or anytime soon. An investor is more likely to appear when we have a new stadium. Nick Toye 39 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:24:05 Report abuse Well I will support the club to the hilt and that means everyone at the club. BK is not there to grind us into the ground, have some intelligence please.I’m also proud at the fact that under our board and management we have managed two European Qualification without having Newcastle’s money, Man U’s money or Chelsea’s money. The players we let go were simply not good enough, and for the record we have brought in 4 players this summer if you include Howard’s move going permanent. Why do people comment without knowing the facts, its speculative bull that makes me take your posts and sprinkle it on my chips.Has it ever occurred to people that Earl coming on board as a so-called advisor is the springboard to investment? He has come in as an advisor to help us market the club better. He’s taken one look at Goodison and thought you need to move forward, and it may well not be hear.From a business standpoint, KIrkby is a great opportunity, and at the moment is the only opportunity. Its not eBay, we don’t list the club and wait for the offers.Its also the same as you don’t sell a battered old fridge and hope to make the same money as a next to new fridge. Nick Toye 40 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:30:40 Report abuse @Steve CorleyThe stadium will make more money than just gate receipts. There will be low maintenance costs, well lower than what we are paying now, and that is one reason why we need to move, our ground costs us.The stadium will generate receipts from other games such as U21 matches, etc....also non-sporting events. Corporate functions, etc....Better advertising too. At the moment who want’s to advertise in a battered old ground? nobody does, also why don’t we get those fancy adverising hoardings that are computer generated? because we are not attractive to the advertiser. A new plush ground will bring with it better advertising.Do we need anymore reasons? What if this Kirkby project was in Liverpool? Would that make a difference? If its the fact that we are leaving Liverpool to go to Baines and Stubbs’s neck of the woods, that is so hard to swallow? Sneaker 41 Posted 03/08/2007 at 00:48:01 Report abuse Fellas,Is all this bitching and whinging actually achieving anything?. Until the vote is cast everything we say is pure speculation and is merely filling up Toffeeweb’s server space... robert carney 42 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:06:32 Report abuse I have read some shite hear tonight. Wake up empty heads from both sides. The real issue is who takes us forward and what are the rewards for the people involed.BK sells at a huge profit. Fat arse gets a huge bonus. The fans are treated like shit. Lots of people omitted from interest because of an exclusive deal for Tesco. One last point Tesko in polish means litter, aka SHITE. Jay 43 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:19:38 Report abuse I fuckin hate this website, theres too much negativity. Sooner you toffeeplebs face up to the fact that we neeed a new ground a the better, wherever it maybe . Walton is a fuckin shithole comapared to kirkby if you are a evertoinain an its in ur blood who gives a fuck born a blue live a blue die a blue get fuckin grip everton is movin on its about time this website did aswel and no its not a personal attack. arseholes Phill 44 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:24:29 Report abuse yer here here jay !!!!!!!!! Gary Hughes 45 Posted 03/08/2007 at 03:13:30 Report abuse When Kenwright tells us that Kirkby is the only option, what he actually means is that Kirkby is the only option while he is in charge. There is something distinctly fishy about this Kirkby business and I for one don’t trust anything from Kenwright or Wyness. I have always defended Kenwright because I always felt that despite his many flaws he always had the best interest of the club at heart. Unfortunately I no longer think this is true.While lesser clubs are reaping the rewards of foreign investors and improved TV money we are supposed to accept that (despite still being the 4th most successful club in the country) nobody is remotely interested in investing in our club. Across the park David Moores, who I imagine is as fanatical about his club as Kenwright is about Everton, realised that the clubs future was more important than his desire to remain in control. Well I for one am convinced that Kenwright is actively discouraging potential investment because he simply won’t give up HIS club to anyone regardless of what is best for Everton.I urge all Evertonians to say no to Kirkby as this ill thought out venture benefits nobody but Kenwright and Wyness. Mike Dolan 46 Posted 03/08/2007 at 03:03:07 Report abuse Lets imagine you are fifteen years old and your Mum and Dad love you very very much but are skint and can’t afford to buy you the quality dresses that all your friends Mum and Dads can afford for there less attractive daughters.The main rival a young lady called Rouge de Merde who’s father is building a Mac-Mansion so out of proportion to anything in the neighborhood that you’ll be able to see it from outer space. I’m sorry if I oversimplify things but it seems to me that Rouge de Merde is effectively being mortgaged into penury by the smiling American investors. We for now do not have good investors in the business of Everton but for Uncle Terry, if the club continues with its current business plan we will continue to edge ahead. I have to say that our club borrowed to make last years signings against this years earnings. I might be alone on this but I think Everton is brilliantly run. Far better now than at anytime in the past or in the future. Goodison is dead it died when the Premier League was formed,LoveThe Blue Pimpernel John 47 Posted 03/08/2007 at 06:57:54 Report abuse I repeat. If a new ground is so essential to getting investment how come West Ham, Birmingham and Portsmouth all managed to get new money in with their fairly mediocre grounds ?On a completely different tack where has all the money gone ? We should have a bagful of money and yet we appear to be skint again. Could somebody please enlighten me as to where the money has gone. Dave Moore 48 Posted 03/08/2007 at 06:59:27 Report abuse I thought the article by Gordon was excellent, why, because for once I could read responses by people which actually made sense, people who think with their heads. So whilst I thought it was an excellent article to post, I think most of the points put forward in it were complete ?tosh? (for want of a better word). BK & KW may not be the best at their jobs because they haven?t yet given us what we want, but are we not in a more stable position financially now then before they were in charge? Is the team not now achieving more under Moyes than it did under Walter Smith? I agree its not achieving what we want it to achieve but with our squad quality it is a bit of an achievement. Gordon, why are you comparing us to Portsmouth, Fulham, Birmingham etc, we are Everton football club, 100 years plus in top flight football, that can?t be bad. All the other clubs you mention as being heavily in debt have massive assets in the quality players they have and their stadia, unlike us.I admire people who stand up and be counted, the KEIOC group have obviously worked hard for something they believe in, however I don?t think everyone has to feel the same way. I?m not too convinced by the tactic of showing video clips of violence around GP was a good idea though. To me it says ?hey this is what you?ll get, so vote NO, we?ll put up with it instead?. Reality is starting to bite with most supporters and my feeling is people are starting to look at Kirkby as the only option that makes sense. Evertonian?s want to stay in the city but the city didn?t want the supporters until it looked too late.My biggest worry is that the vote for Kirkby will be a NO and then LCC will not deliver or will only partly deliver. In my mind the Kings Dock was dragged on purposely so as costs would spiral thus fucking up the dream move. Would LFC and LCC allowed us to have the Kings Dock stadium or am I just being paranoid? aigburthblue 49 Posted 03/08/2007 at 08:34:06 Report abuse No dave you are not paranoid, i believe your on the money. I’ve thought the same, and if you follow it a bit further, now LCC are coming up with a last-minute’ alternative to fuck up the vote (ie try to create enough doubt to get a no vote), i believe LCC want us to stay at goodison bringing money into a rundown part of l’pool, so will many reds too cos that way we are no real threat to them financially, especially once the superbowl is built right next door. The whole ’leaving the city’ thing is really LCC shitting itself cos walton is gonna be something they have to deal with once everton have moved on taking their fanbase and money to kirkby.Vote YES for a future in the EPL! Steve Corley 50 Posted 03/08/2007 at 09:38:08 Report abuse Nick - I accept what your saying with regard to non match day income and to a lesser extent the maintence issue. Not sure about the advertising, I would have thought the driver for advertising would be the numbers of people who see it both in the ground and on the box coupled with the relative success of the team. And if the stadium is a contributory factor then why wouldn?t a company wish to advertise in one of the most iconic stadiums of English football? Anyway, my main point is for Kirby to work then everyone has to be on board and excited by the concept (ala Kings Dock) this needs to be coupled with an extra 7-10,000 who don’t currently visit Goodison often, to swell the average crowd. It pretty obvious that the vote for Kirby will be no landslide, and a sizable amount of the no camp are vehemently apposed to the move. In terms of the extra supporters, well Everton in the unique position of proposing a move to a larger stadium when they don?t currently fill their existing one. What are these fans currently doing when we play at goodison that they will suddenly stop and come down on a regular basis to watch us at Kirkby? (or any other new site for that matter). I must be missing something! sonofa binman 51 Posted 03/08/2007 at 12:28:38 Report abuse In the pursuit of fairness and openess, ensuring I have on board all the information/views from the different parties,before making a decision on a major issue affecting our club. I ventured down to St Georges Hall this morning, before I could even get in the presentation room, I had a sticker planted on me by a young lad who I seem to remember paying to ’mind me car’. The sticker read ’say no to Kirkby’ it was all downhill from there really. What does sadden me is that the amateurish actions of this group are mirrored by those of the club, and the city council, and it is left to those in the middle ground to decide. For what it’s worth this mornings trip has probably swayed me to vote ’Kirkby’. Bayne 52 Posted 03/08/2007 at 13:02:57 Report abuse an extra 10 million a year would be great (although as already mentioned it is a modest figure compared to the money floating around in football today, we could probably buy one or two quality players with it). everton could generate 3 times as much as that figure by winning trophies, don’t you think? lets spend the money we have on a squad that can challenge for honours, once we do that, a new stadium (wherever that maybe)will come much easier D 53 Posted 03/08/2007 at 15:39:38 Report abuse If BK was turning major investment down all the time don’t you think we would have heard something in the press? Surely one of the dozens of disgruntled billionaires turned away from investing in EFC by BK would have voiced his displeasure at being denied pumping millions of £ of his hard earned cash our way would have had a pop at Bill, I’m sure most of them didn’t get to where they are by being nice guys. Or maybe we arn’t worth investing in due to our financial situation, and perhaps this gives us a good indication of the real state of GP. dave scott 54 Posted 03/08/2007 at 16:10:57 Report abuse This is a great post as it has brought out some intelligent —most of the time— debate about the merits of "should I stay or should I go". Can I ask a couple of questions to all to 1— Is Everton's History more important than it's future? 2— Can we afford to stay at Goodison or develop inside Liverpool's boundary? 3— Do we want to stay still for another 5 years whilst we let another Kings Dock slip through our fingers? I think if we all look at the facts we have been given and at ourselves the answer to the above is a resounding "no". For me that is why i will be voting yes — i dont want my club to die — and I dont want it be swallowed by a pit of debt created by the enormous investment required to build inside the city boundary —i.e. we dont have £50m of assistance offered inside the boundary. I respect all the views from fellow supporters and i understand frustrations with the inability of the board to attract big investors. Fact is we havent got a sugar daddy and we dont seem to have anyone interested. I for one am not prepared to wait for an investor. My heart says "stay at goodison" and "stay in the city" but my mind says this should strictly be a business decision and that means the most financially sound, lowest long and short term risk should be taken. "Emotions make people stupid" —someone of note once said—- use the facts we do have to make your "business decision": - we are SKINT- we are offered a new stadium at a discount that we can realistically afford without inward investment from a mystery sugar daddy —who never appears—- goodison needs replacing- we cant afford to renovate- we cant afford to buy land in liverpool and none has been offered to us for freep.s. Nick Toye you have spoken such sense as you have removed emotion from your argument Nick Toye 55 Posted 03/08/2007 at 20:22:35 Report abuse Well emotion doesn’t come into it. I heard someone say that they would rather watch Everton in the Championship at Goodison rather than go to Kirkby.So by removing emotion from the argument, where does it leave us? Well the bottom line remains that we need a new ground. Either by improving our own ground or moving to a new site.If we also take the "Moving out of Liverpool" out of the equation, then does that change things? On the face of it, is the Kirkby Project a bad idea? Will crowds dwindle? Not likely, I remember being at Goodison with 50,000+. However, I do feel we need to balance out the stadium issue with the constant improvement of the squad. And I do concede that at the moment, we seem to be deflecting away from the more important issue of improving the squad. Daniel Howard 56 Posted 03/08/2007 at 20:23:15 Report abuse It is very unlikely we will get anybody to invest whilst we remain at Goodison. To make the investment worthwhile, an investor would need to build a new ground for the club which would add another 100,000,000 to the price he has already paid for buying the club. The investor could recoup some of the outlay early on by selling Goodison Park but not nearly enough to meet the stadium building costs. Therefore, Gordon Soames’ argument is flawed. Daniel Howard 57 Posted 03/08/2007 at 22:32:28 Report abuse In response to John, there could be a million reasons why Portsmouth, West Ham and Birmingham have investors whilst remaining in their older stadia. Most likley is that these clubs’ finances were healthy at the time and it wouldn’t need 100,000,000 from the investor when the time came to build a new ground. The difference with Everton being, we’re penniless, and so the investor would be forced to foot the bill. steve jones 58 Posted 03/08/2007 at 23:06:12 Report abuse its really simple - no one would invest in everton at the moment as they would have to pay for a new ground.When we have a new ground, just watch the investors lining up.Essentially thats the master plan from Blue Bill - the club is sorted and he gets a few bob back - happy days ! patazzuri 59 Posted 04/08/2007 at 07:17:57 Report abuse On the Alan Smith front in my opinion he would only get on the bench anyway,Which he knows he will be doing at Newcastle but for 60k a week.Also in my opinion the only teams to have bought in quality players are the so called elite. The top four. ron.leith 60 Posted 04/08/2007 at 09:23:07 Report abuse The problem with EFC is that they are in the shadow of LFC. When I was in my teens we would finish in the Euro places but there was a rule that only one club from a city could take part. We all know what happened in 1985. If an investor is looking at EFC they want to see a return. A new stadium well away from the massive new Anfield in place and deliverable is the way to show that a return is likely. It is central to getting new investment not an alternative. I can not see that we will get investment with an ageing ground, the label as the Cities second team and a clearly biased Council bending over backwards to acconmmodate LFC. Will the new planning application for LFC sail through-yes. Will EFC abandon Kirby and then suddenly find the alternative sites are actually not that easy to develop-yes. The prosposals that have been shown for redesigning Goodison forget about the time taken for compulsory purchase. This can be 10 years. Unfortunately, decision time is now. Kirby or bust. Bob 61 Posted 04/08/2007 at 10:22:15 Report abuse I’m a little tired of this subject as well, I’m in the USA ans not as directly involved with the grounds as most of you are, however, when I find myself in England during the season, I try to go to as many matches as possible.I have not read all the details and I’m not sure if this hasn’t already been discussed, but is this a good plan:- 1. Stay at the Goodison location;2. Work out a temporary ground share agreement with LFC;3. Knock Goodison;4. If necessary acquire additional land;5. Build the new facility on the existing site.Too simple?Too difficult?Infor me. istanbul3305@blueyonder.co.uk 62 Posted 04/08/2007 at 11:04:13 Report abuse i cant understand selfish blues fans wanting to stay in liverpool what about the rest of us ? keith wyness has told you that it will put an end to global warming and the arms race plus it will only cost the club a hundred grand as he dreamed up the idea before decimalisation, how can you stay at goodison when no one can improve or enlarge it because of famous footprint, cofusius say wellie leave same sized footprint as slipper. Bentley 63 Posted 04/08/2007 at 11:32:48 Report abuse I’m with Bob.I’m getting piss bored of this debate and am rapidly approaching the don’t care any more point.Am also with Bob in that I’m not able to get to Goodison as often as I’d like as Im not from Liverpool, but can completely appreciate both sides of the argument.Aside from the necessity of finding a commercial partner to help fund it (read: almost entire bankroll it), would the Bellefield training ground be big enough for a stadium?Strikes me its much closer than Kirkby judging by streetmap, is Everton through-and-through, and relocating training facilities wouldn’t be anywhere near as thorny an issue and nor would it be as challenging.There are probably a host of reasons why its a non-starter, but as a non-scouser (though a proud blue) I’m just curious.Anyone know? Barbara "Barnstormer" Fletcher 64 Posted 04/08/2007 at 16:07:17 Report abuse Blow this stadium deabte. I just wanted to express my relief at getting rid of beattie. 4 million is not a bad return from the 6 we paid for him in the first place. lets continue to get rid of the dead wood. Any more "Claus thomsens" in the squad that need to be put out of their misery? I am going to the Wigan game where the no doubt the stadium issue will raise its ugly head again. Whatever happens I want it to be the right choice. Be it at Goodison(?) or at kirky if that is the intended move. I feel like sitting here longer but its a lovely day outside and i am going down to the beach here in Bournemouth. Dont expect to see many fellow blues though. I will get back when a different (and more interestering but not relevant topic) comes to the fore. And as for the Alan Smith transfer than never happened. I wont be losing any sleep over him not coming. I expect he will do well at Newcastle. i mean there a huge club arent they. Last time they won any trophy the beatles had their last number one. How times change. Steve Brown 65 Posted 04/08/2007 at 18:21:30 Report abuse The KEOIC designs should equally have been done in crayons, or lego for that matter, that’s how realistic they are. If Everton fans turn down the opportunity to get major financial backing from Tesco for the new stadium, we should all shot. There is no other funding available from any other commercial source - and funding will only come from a commercial source despite what Liverpool Council say. Bayne 66 Posted 06/08/2007 at 13:41:12 Report abuse @ Steve BrownSo you think the ’designs’ released by everton where betterAll they did was copy and paste Cologne’s stagium onto powerpoint and paint it blue. at ;least KEIOC actually DESIGNED something!Also, no good business goes out without a plan B. Monkeys would have run this stadium isse better! © ToffeeWeb