Hitting the proverbial ceiling

Phil

"How long before Moyes and our top players (Arteta, Lescott, Yakubu etc) realise that the Board don?t share the same ambition as themselves and the fans?"

Not very long IMO.

Jay, Phil, "IMO" they have a bit more positivity, motivation, and grasp on reality than the likes of you and the rest of the whining, libelous, bunch of your ilk that infest this site, and bring it down to the level where, unfortunately, players and others "in the know" would not bother to view its contents. Pity, really, as there are some good aspects to the site.

Andy McFarlane you are quite entitled to your opinion of me and others in the same way that I am entitled to mine regarding Bill Kenwright and the rest of the board.

My opinion is that Bill Kenwright and his sidekick Keith Wyness have been caught in numerous lies and that is something I cannot stand.

I also happen to believe (although there is not much evidence yet) that Moyes is also starting to see through some false promises.

Far be it from me to speculate but I think it took more than Fiorentina knocking us out of the UEFA cup to cause the downturn in form and the constant disappearance of Mikel Arteta to Spain "to get his stomach fixed" and then the statement from Moyes that he "found it strange" that the board had not even discussed his contract nor how much would be available for players and yet Wyness stated that they had been discussing it for months.

Now if you read my postings there?s next to no negativity about Moyes and the players.

My only complaint is I do not trust this board and I do not feel the move to Kirkby is the right one for Everton.

No dont you tell me what I am saying is libellous because I will defy anybody to contradict what I have outlined as blatant lies by this board and if you are Keith Wyness in disguise threaten to sue me as well as the Japanese Dentist. (Oh Sorry that wasn't incompetence either was it?)

Phil

"our on the pitch revival hides and (distracts from ) the real issue of investment and financial stability"

How depressingly accurate

The sad irony of Kirkby is that it was conceived to help everton compete financially, however as the dust settles the club are realising that the cost to them will be far more than they first thought. If even the club are quoting £78m you can bet your bottom dollar that it will end up being in excess of £100m, such is the nature of the building industry and feasibility cost studies. so the fact is that the club?s current precarious financial position due to the dark mega-millions cloud of Kirkby that hovers above us is meaning that the board are being non-commital as to the money available to moyes this summer. We had an opportunity in 2005 to build on the champions league qualifying season and the board failed spectacularly to back the manager and build on the momentum. we have another opportunity this summer to do the same, the board MUSTN?T fail again in this respect. The club must forget the potentail disaster that is Kirkby and put the money into the football team... we might not get another chance to narrow the gap again.

Andy

What leads you to the conclusion that the players are in the know about investment et al. What knowledge do you have that players and club officals don’t access thIs site?

Read most of the articles written about Everton in the guardian, independent etc etc over the past few months they all arrive at the same conclusion. We need massive inward investment. BK is the issue if we want to progress we need money to invest in players. The current issue over the ground move issue is actually going to damage any chance of real success i.e. winning trophies. The way to achieve our goal of a new ground that is both fit for purpose and keeps us in the city is to be successful on the pitch. Investment will then follow if BK is prepared to step down? Moving ground now will simply restrict transfer funds when we need it most. For the first time in nearly thirty years we have a realisitic chance of winning trophies if we can add maybe three TOP quality players. BK find the money for players or find someone who can!

Andy MacFarlane,


Your personal insults bring nothing to this debate and its the likes of YOU that infest this site. I dont actually believe you read or understood my argument. You question my ambitions for this club yet this is what my article basically targets. Everton FC are not ambitious enough to achieve any lasting level of success

Exactly why do you visit this site if you find the harsh facts of our situation too hard to accept?
Why dont you stick to your rose tinted view of the world and never leave your house again.
Our current situation is not sustainable. We cannot chase the top 4 on a budget of £10-15M a year for much longer. Sooner or later the manager and/or top players will leave for bigger spending more ambiitous clubs.

Exactly who are the people in the know? AND please do tell - what exactly do they know?

Andy -tell me where I have lost grip on reality?

Has our board not failed to bring in appropiate investment?

Have our board not promised a top stadium for nothing? Only then to say it will cost £80M and it will be of mid-range standard!

How many fake transfer bids have they made in the last few years? (Owen and Alan Smith for starters).
Hey this article is just my opninion - but i feel BK and KW dont get even close to matching Moyes (and the players) in terms of ambition and competence

Phil,
I think you are the one who needs a reality check.
Its very easy to blame BK, KW or the Board for all our ills and the fact that we aren?t in the top 4 etc. Firstly, you need to consider where we have come from football wise and financially. On both counts, we were in dire straits a few years ago. I don?t think its an exaggeration to say that we flirted very closely with relegation and insolvency. I?m not saying BK is perfect but he has been a large part of dragging us out of that mess. You want to go back to thos days? Sure, Moyesy can take a lot of credit for the football side but BK should get credit for bringing him in.
Secondly, Moyes has always made it clear that he and BK act as a team. BK has shown patience when things haven?t always gone to plan and Moyes has lived and worked with the budget provided. Moyes seems to me to be a direct and honest person (sometimes too direct & honest) and if he felt that BK & co were not fair dinkum then he would have walked by now.
Thirdly, there are a few of these myths which are perpetually recycled - one is that BK is stopping investment in the club. However, these claims are never backed up by any evidence. Surely, if a Russian billionaire or ex-Thai dictator wanted to buy the club we?d hear about it? They would go public themselves. We did hear that the Thai guy was initially interested in the RS for example.
The other myth is that BK wants to move the move to Kirkby so that he can sell out and take the money & run. This contradicts the "stopping investment" myth and if it were true would seem to back the idea that moving to Kirkby would indeed increase our value and attractiveness.
In terms of the move itself, the club is getting a £130M stadium for £78M. Off that amount you need to take naming rights, sale of Goodison and sale of Bellefield. Whatever the final figure is, it will still be a very good deal financially. It will cost a lot less and take less time than any of the alternatives. Hopefully it will provide the club with a better income stream in the future to help break that proverbial ceiling.
I don?t know what motivation you think that BK, the board, Moyes etc would have for the Kirkby move if it were not in the best interests of the club.

I voted "Yes" for the Kirkby move, as I believed what was on offer was the best move for the club... however, over the past few months, events and revelations have started to worry me ever so slightly, and my patience and faith in Bill Kenwright and Keith Wyness is significantly losing substance.

Firstly, the cost of the ground move for Everton. What was the figure that was originally banded about? £25m? Now fair enough if that was all we had to contribute. But, why now - and also how - has the value dramatically risen over 200% to nearly £80m? Questions certainly need to be asked of Kenwright and Wyness here, as the 59% of us who voted "Yes" to the ground move have put an awful lot of faith in them coming up with the goods, and for them to be dis-honest and lacking in detail is nothing short of disgraceful. Firstly Kirkby golf course, secondly King’s Dock and now this - I honestly did not think Everton could make an embarrassment out of us all YET AGAIN, considering them two past supposed ground move schemes.

Secondly, Moyes. Now I know he does people’s heads in with some of his tactics, but IMO he’s fucking class, and without a doubt one of the top managers in the Premiership, if not Europe (what would the likes of Newcastle do to have him as manager?). I also think he is spot on for standing up and stating to BK and KW that if the Champions League is what they require, then £40m this summer should do it. Now what alarms me is the feedback from all this - why hasn’t he been told what he’s getting to spend in the summer? Why hasn’t his contract been sorted? If these two luvvy duvvy tits really want what’s best for Everton, then they need to get Moyes happy ASAP.

Thirdly, why the fuck in 7 - 8 years at the club hasn’t Kenwright attracted any sort of real investment??? What’s the score in these shitty Vhinese / Thai sponsorship deals - which have brought us buttons by the way - if we aren’t going to market ourselves properly in the Far East? What was that "Sportress Fund" about? What’s Robert Earl doing at the club? Kenwright claims he’s a mad Evertonian who will keep us informed every step of the way, when in fact he is nothing but a penniless twat who seriously lacks in detail and facts.

Again, I’ll reiterate that I am all for the ground move to Kirkby, but unfortunately - yet again - it looks like to be a load of old bollocks from "Blue Bill", and no doubt another embarrassment to everyone involded with the club. If he and Wyness do not satisfy Moyes i.e. contract and transfer funds and the fans i.e. definate ground move, then it’s time for them to move on.

Last sentence meant to say...

I don?t know what motivation you think that BK, the board, Moyes etc would have for the Kirkby move if it were not in the best interests of the club.

Fruedian slip perhaps!

John Nelson how on earth can you list the catalogue of lies told by Kenwright and Co in the past and then admit to voting yes for Kirkby based on promises made by him and Wyness? I?m sorry mate but its too little too late. Most of the concerns which you now raise were highlighted by the no voters on this and other sites before the actual vote took place and yet you still chose to believe the bullshitter.

I dont actually remember Moyes stating categorically that he was behind the Kirkby move. He has stated getting a bigger stadium as key but always evaded the use of the K word -especially in recent interviews.
As soon as EFC get a new stadium the club will instantly be worth a lot more. Therefore any share values in the club will also increase. KW and BK would become alot richer?
IMO if they then both sold out they would stand to make a lot of money and be able to move on having "delivered Everton a new home"

Is that grounds for motivation?
Why did Birch last literally a matter of weeks as CEO? He said on his first day, we need investment and we need a bigger stadium. Yet he left saying this it was an impossible job citing the board as the problem. Why was that -Considering the similar work he did for other clubs?

Please dont tell me that I have lost my grip on reality. Take your head out of your arse and look around. Things are not alright. Or perhaps just wait 5 more years and if things at the top havent changed -I?m sure it will be blantanly obvious then.

’As soon as EFC get a new stadium the club will instantly be worth a lot more’
Why? I thought it was going to leave us in huge debt? I thought half of the fans won’t turn up? I thought it was a crap stadium?
If you believe that the club will be worth more then surely you’re arguing in favour of the Kirkby move?

Where do you get your evidence that BK & KW will sell out. How many shares does KW have anyway? Why haven’t they sold out to some invester already - one of those ones who you claim they’ve been knocking back in the past?

Have a look at the latest news on the RS stadium move:-
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=535376&cc=3436

Would you rather Hicks (or similar) running the club or BK?

Steve Ryan, I think you have mis-interpreted my article.

I am not for one instance retracting my view that the club should move ground - what was promised was, in my opinion, spot on for all parties. I still believe this is what they are aiming for... however, it is becoming more and more apparant that it is going to cost more than what was first envisaged, which ? although mightily excessive ? seems to be the norm with stadium building in the UK.

My piece was a criticism of Bill Kenwright and Keith Wyness, for not keeping the fans informed every step of the way (as Kenwright promised when he took over) and also not tieing Moyes down to a new deal, and giving him sufficient transfer funds ? not the ground move. And the reason why I put so much faith in them for it was because I liked the idea of the ground move, and given past actions, surely Everton cannot fuck up yet again?

Ciaran,

Through a relative who speaks to him daily, I happen to know a great deal about Hicks and what he has planned at Anfield.

Hicks or Kenwright running everton?

Hicks every day and twice on Sunday.

The day he gets control over at Anfield is the day to start worrying, trust me.

Also, you supposed "fans" who allegadly won’t turn up at the new ground - if completed, of course - need GET A FUCKING GRIP. This is beyond a joke now. How can you really expect people to take you seriously when you are coming out with such negative, tarty, childish, PATHETIC shite like that?

I am all for differing opinions when it comes to the ground move, but this is taking it a bit too far, don’t ya think?

Ciaran Duff,



"Why? I thought it was going to leave us in huge debt? I thought half of the fans won?t turn up?"

I wont argue Finance with you - but it will count as an asset of the club. Since it’s newer and with a greater capacity than Goodison currently has. It will increase the value of the club. The £80M is still a secured debt however the stadium move will provide an artificial increase in the value of the club.


"I thought it was a crap stadium?
If you believe that the club will be worth more then surely you?re arguing in favour of the Kirkby move?"


No its still a mid-range/basic stadum. Read the offical report if you dont beleive me. And No I’m not in favour for the reason above. It will create an artificial increase in the value of the club.
Kirkby stadium will be worth more than Goodison on a spreadsheet but are those current plans really up to Everton’s standards as a new home for the next 50 years?



Where do you get your evidence that BK & KW will sell out. How many shares does KW have anyway?"

(banging my head against a wall)... Just wait and see Ciaran. True blue holdings (i.e. Kenwrights company) are the majortity share holders.
Why haven?t they sold out to some invester already - one of those ones who you claim they?ve been knocking back in the past?

(still banging my head against a wall)... That is my question!!! Why does every other club (big, small or avareage) get linked with a takeover. But we dont. We were told its because we need a new stadium which requires investment. Yet Portsmouth, Liverpool, Birminham City were either taken over or targeted. Oh and by the way check out Portsmouth’s new stadium plans on google...then compare to ours...you see what I mean by ambition?


"Would you rather Hicks (or similar) running the club or BK? "

If your asking if I’d rather have someone with a track record of failing to deliver big investment and new deals OR someone with an international reputation for business acumen who has plans to build a 60,000 seater stadium (incorporating features from the old ground), yards away from the old ground..who also allowed the manager enoughs funds to smash (almost double) their previous transfer record -but all be it from USA then I’d take the latter

John: How are we going to get to Kirkby? Think about that before abusing fans who will not go to Kirkby.

Stop kidding yourself, John, its embarrassing. Kenwrights reign has been a disaster and Kirkby should be the final nail in his coffin.

I guess that its not just Hicks, its the whole RS setup. How much debt are Liverpool in now? Add another £350M to that if they ever get to build that stadium.
Compared to that, our plans may be modest but realistic and at a fraction of the costs. So, IMO, our board is being far more realistic and prudent. Don’t knock them for that.

David O’Keefe

Like I said mate, if the Kirkby move fails or does not meet initial expectations, then of course Kenwright has got to go. After all these promises of a new ground, if we weren’t to get it - coupled with the King’s Dock episode - then Kenwright would and should definately walk then.

Ciaran,

Our plans are a fraction of the cost as you say. But surely there?s better ways of spending £80M. Why was there no proper appriasal of redeveloping Goodison Park? Architects have produced plans and budgets that prove it is viable. Yet the board dismiss it!.

The Loop was dismissed as insufficient yet HOK (world renowned) clearly state otherwise. Walton Hall Park ? why wasn't this explored if Sainsburys (as they admit themselves) were interested in a partnership? Why weren?t we as supporters given an option?

As I?ve said many times before ? this isn't an attack on Kirkby more an attack on the logic behind it. Everton FC the city?s first football club is moving out, the year Liverpool becomes European Capital of Culture! Liverpool City is going through a big transition and lots of money is coming into the city. Yet EFC, a great Liverpool institution, moves out. Just Brilliant!

John Nelson.

I’m sorry, I’m genuinely baffled.

You voted for the move - fine.

But then say...

"I liked the idea of a ground move and given past actions, surely Everton cannot fuck up yet again"

THIS....is a reason?

If your car breaks down and you take it to a garage and they fuck it up and lie to you, would you take it there again?

Well actually, if they were REALLY persuasive and really good liars, and apologized for the first time and seemed genuinely apologetic...maybe you would (maybe I would).

But a THIRD time?

I don’t bleedin’ well think so (nor a fourth...fifth...sixth..).

The fact is, when someone fucks up something and continues to fuck it up, they become MORE likely to continue fucking it up.....NOT more likely to suddenly get it right.

That’s just...um...how it is.

Jay, Ed, Phil, I note your comments. I apologise for the vitriol that I allowed to enter my e_mail. That is what I normally despise the most about some of the postings on this site. I just SO WISH that the presumptions, that I can only describe as "arrogant and ignorant" that run through all the attacks on Kenwright and Wyness, could be sensitised with a little caveat that "we do not know everything, financially and otherwise, that goes on within Our Club, so we can only comment on results,(including financial performances) and not speak with any authority as to the motives of the Board, or individual members of it". Unfortunately, my experience of reading many contributers on this site leads me to believe we can expect no such humility or integrity. Please prove me wrong, and I will aplologise again. NSNO

Bill Kenwright is in the Last Chance Saloon over Kirkby even with the well meaning, but gullible like John Nelson.

Sad thing is that when he’s run out of town, we’ll be running him out of a small one with Iceland as its stand out shop in the Centre, rather than a City having new life breathed back into it through massive investment.

Kirkby fills me with dread. As time goes on the reality of it is sinking in, but instead of getting my head round it, I am just getting angry.

If we had no choice ( relegated to Div 2, no hope on the pitch and bankrupt ) but to leave Goodison for anywhere that would have us that would be one thing, but to be doing it of our own free will while Moyesie and the Boys are doing such a grand job on the pitch? It’s fucking unbelievable!!

Deal of the Century? Heavily in debt ( £78m -£150m on top of existing debt ) and in a backwater ( sorry Kirkby residents ) playing in a stadium with abysmal transport links. Wyness won’t be around to clear up that mess I bet. Maybe he will pay us a visit every now and then - perhaps one of the 1000 people who will CYCLE to the match!!!

( Maybe on a unicycle juggling oranges with a red nose on? )

We can spend that sort of money in rebuilding Goodison over a period of time with less risk.

Is this site changing its name to http://www.stadiumdebate x5000 with the same points raised every time?