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“The Everton Way”

By Jay Harris :  01/09/2009 :  Comments (123) :
The Everton Way is killing us.

I am sure the majority of Evertonians have hogged their PCs all summer and scrambled through newspapers to find a shred of hope to hang onto that we were at last exploting the opportunity to build on our achievements.

Even now, as I type this article, we're all clinging to the hope that we sign a player (I think most of us have given up on two being possible) that a lot of us may not even know much about but has to be an improvement to an already paper-thin squad.

I know certain posters (Doddy in particular) have come on praising "The Everton Way", but I know that if many supporters feel like I do, they will feel utterly let down by a club that promises so much and disappoints so often. Every year we have to sell to buy and always leave it to the last minute.

I know Moyes says he only wants to bring players that will improve the quality of the squad but surely somebody like Tuncay for less than £5 million gives us an option to give Ossie a rest. And Krancjar at £2.5 million has been available all summer.

I am sure it makes many of us want to turn our backs on a club that constantly gives out a message saying "Screw the supporters" but the problem is they are in your blood and it's like some "Junkie" fix that we keep putting ourselves through in the vain hope that our day will come again.

But I am afraid it will never come while Kenwright remains at the helm and continues the culture of "kidding" us that he only has our interests at heart while he is selling our birthright behind our backs and more funds disappear down the blackhole.

I still often think to myself, "I wonder what happened to the £12 million for Manny 'He will be signing in the morning' Fernandes? Or the funds that were there at the start of the summer enough to get Phil Carter 'excited' at the prospect of players we were going to bring in early?"

The truth of the matter is we got £24 million for Lescott and spent £14 million on inadequate replacements similar to last year when we got £18 million for Johnson and McFadden and got Felli for a reputed £3.5 million down-payment and the rest over the next 250 years... (OK, that was a BK-type porky but you get the point).

"The Everton Way" is the other side of the black hole. The paralell world where Bill and his buddies can all pat themselves on the back over a glass od Dom Perignon and say, "Didn't we do well?"

While back in the real world, thousands of True Blues are getting disillusioned at best and suicidal at worst. The banks of the Royal Blue Mersey may see more than Kopites hanging from it this year...

Reader Comments

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David O'Keefe
1   Posted 01/09/2009 at 21:36:56

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I agree, except on one small point; the title — "The Kenwright Way" is more appropriate.
John Roberts
2   Posted 01/09/2009 at 21:37:27

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As soon we may all realise that the Board are a bunch lying two-faced muppets led by the biggest bullshitter known!!! Who's next to go next summer or god forbid in January! Rodwell/Arteta? Well, I see Bill rubbing his hands at the thought! And then Elstone can ask us to renew our season tickets in February! With more bullshit promises!
Stian Skaar
3   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:16:35

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We’ve bought Distin, Billy and Heitinga for maybe £20m. These look like the right players, wth the right track records, in the right positions. Obviously our hands were tied until we got the Lescott sale done and dusted — that’s why Moyes was moaning about how late that deal was concluded.

And with huge debts, loans etc., it makes sense — and is perhaps inevitable — to have som spare money to service them and downpay on them.

We have done well in this transfer window!
Rob Hollis
4   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:30:07

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Everton Way is the name of a new cul-de-sac in Kirkby.
Gerry Western
5   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:50:47

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Jay a good post. Like you I’m hugely disappointed with our transfer dealings and the way these have been conducted. However, I do have some sympathies with Moyes. I’ve had it with the BK is a blue notion. He’s either a guy who refuses to give up his trainset or else he’s out to make a killing at the expense of the club.

At this point I can’t make up my mind but either way he’s doing irreparable damage to the club in serving his own interests.I note you make reference to Kranjcar. I too felt we should have gone after his signature and was foolishly optimistic having read the report in the Mirror that we’d entered the race to sign him. However, I’ve since read Kranjcar’s response to our interest.

To cut a long story short he pretty much says he chose Spurs as he believed they are a club with ambition and were going in the right direction. I’m not silly enough to think that the salary on offer wasn’t a major factor for the player.

The truth is though that year on year we’re going to loose out to other clubs in terms of the quality of players we can expect to attract. The saddest thing of all is that we really had a chance to build on our relative success from last year but once again we’ve missed the boat and I don’t think it’s going to be sailing again any time soon.

Kevin Hudson
6   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:17:48

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Absolutely abysmal, hysterical article. We’ve signed two internationals and a seasoned pro. What did you fucking expect? Riquelme,Eto’ and Franck Ribery? No you want sulking, greasy twat Tuncay,and "couldn’t- hit-a-pig-in-an-entry," Krancjar!!

Can you imagine these two fat mercenaries on a wet Tuesday night in Hull? These players are inexpensive for a reason, I’ll give you that. Their respective clubs want rid to raise capital, but they aren’t that great and I doubt they would even bust a gut to compensate!

I really can’t believe that anyone can actually be THAT negative. Think about it: Jacobsen — replaced by Heitinga (Dutch former player of the year, 50 caps, Ajax educated); Shandy & Castillo —replaced by Bilyaletdinov (Russian international, ex-Young Player of the Year) with Rodwell stepping up, and like for like with Lescott/Distin — while the club makes a profit. What’s the problem?

It’s good business, it isn’t reckless, and the squad is demonstrably stronger. Your attitude is whinging, and irresponsible. You don’t have to spend every penny, every time you pass the tuck-shop, Jay. Or were you bitching when we broke our transfer record 3 or 4 times in consecutive seasons ?

On to the best bit: "... utterly let down," is laughably melodramatic: "I’m sure it makes many of us want to turn our backs on the club," — Do It Then!!

The Pulitzer prize runner up, though, was your harrowing sign-off line: "While back in the real world (?!) thousands of true Blues are getting disillusioned at best, and suicidal at worst. The banks etc..." Risible !!

Please, put down the crack pipe Jay.. It’s actually been a good week!! Don’t piss over it with scholastically redundant polemic.

John Parker
7   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:13:51

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Pleased with our bit of business overall but just watching La Liga highlights and seems we missed a real gem in Banega looks real class act. Hopefully we may go back in Jan window but alas think we may have alerted BIG 4 and Shitey to his ability and no doubt will be out of our budget by then.
Mike Cloherty
8   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:39:34

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Jesus Christ, can we stop feeling so sorry for ourselves on here. Get over the self pitying will you. If you don’t like it, and are so disillusioned, then go get some therapy.

It’s not just the ‘Everton Way’, it’s the way of all football teams bar the lucky few teams who have chanced upon sound minded and stupidly rich backers. We all know we want someone different than Kenwright, we all know we would like top signings at the beginning of the transfer window, but we also know that we don’t want one of the many corrupt, flawed, crazy rich backers who have come/stayed/screwed up/gone from English clubs recently. I’m getting pretty bored of the boo hoo brigade of Everton fans who feel that we have the god given right for self pity in football.

Take a look below at the current league table below, minus Everton and see how many other teams you would genuinely like to be in the position of, or who have a perfectly smooth ride.

In most, I see some similar problems, some different problems, some far more serious problems and all but one of two who have reasons to moan, but non who do it so persistently or tediously as we often do.


Chelsea — One of the lucky few

Spurs — Backed well financially. Happy Harry always starts well, but drifts off as the season goes on.

Man Utd — Spent less than Everton despite need for creative midfielder and 80 million in bank/large debts, but still a huge and successful club

Man City — Time will only tell but being backed significantly at moment

Stoke — Struggle to get any real quality in and meet wages/ unfashionable club

Arsenal — Despite big success, still cannot compete with the big boys on transfers — big players becoming restless with no success- starting to leave

Liverpool — Have backing and CL money but large debts and sold most creative midfielder without recruiting anyone new

Aston Villa — Sound backing and spent a fair bit, but is Downng, Collins and Dunne any better than our three signings?

Sunderland — Despite large amounts spent, I don’t look at anyone they with bought with envy and an unfashionable club to. Even Bent tried his best to find someone else before deciding that Sunderland was his only real option

Burnley — Have just signed Nugent as their main attacking threat. Enough said. Every year there is a plucky team who start well. Just think about Hull last year.

West Ham — In real difficulty following their iclandic buyout a few years ago. A selling club now

Birmingham — Just been bought by a dubious backer who does not look like someone who is in it for the long hall or with any significant funds to challenge. Struggle to attract players

Wolves — No significant funds. Struggle to attract players

Hull — Selling best players. No one wants to go there

Fulham — Injured players, owner who is no longer willing to back them significantly, but does not want to sell. Cannot afford new ground that they hoped to build

Wigan — Committed and hard working owner, but does not have funds to compete-unfashionable club

Blackburn — Will never have the money to buy significantly unless new owner is found

Bolton — No money spent and owner in no mood to sell

Portsmouth — Huge changes/ panic buys/lost key players — in trouble
Kevin Mitchell
9   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:23:17

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Totally agree Jay, although I’m happy with the three new players which can only strenghthen the team I feel It’s not enough for the season ahead.

Reading DM in one of the sunday papers saying he wants more than just the Lescott money after the teams achievements in the last couple of years and Bill Kenwright is trying to provide it just confirms what we already know, that BK (all his own fault by the way) hasn’t got any say about club affairs regarding transfers or Kirkby. By his own admission he’s only a supporter.

It’s all very sad that our destiny is being decided by Earl and Green.
Jay Harris
10   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:32:47

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Kevin Hudson it’s you who must be smoking a crack pipe if you are happy with the way we’ve conducted business over the summer.

We have let Jacobsen, Valente, VdM, Castillo and Lescott go and replaced an already threadbare squad with three players, one of whom most of us have never heard of but may prove to be an outstanding buy but where is the backup to take on a European campaign and cover for the Afcon which happens this season.

What do we do when Yobo, Yak, Pienaar and Anchebe go missing for 6 weeks particularly if we get injuries?

What’s the certainty that Arteta, Jags and/or the Yak will be the same players and hit the ground running?

I would also not get too excited by Heitinga just yet because by all accounts he’s had a real loss of form this past 2 years and was turned inside out by Milner recently.

Personally I think he will be marginally better than Jacobsen but more versatile.

Bily will be more available than VDM and hopefully as good a quality.

Distin is marginally worse than Lescott and obviously much older and can not contribute those all important goals from set pieces.

So that leaves us with no replacement for Valente i.e. no cover for LB and no replacement for Castillo although Rodwell seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds.

Moyes was expecting 4 not 2 so I guess he must have been smoking a crack pipe too.

My biggest beef is not the signings or lack of — it’s the lateness, causing a poor start to the season once again.

And the two fat mercenaries you mentioned would have been welcome additions to the squad, in most evertonians eyes, just ask Moyes who tried to sign Krancjar just before he chose Spurs.
Mark Pierpoint
11   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:01:55

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I take a middle-of-the-road view on all of this. The pessimist tells me we are worse off.

1) Distin was quite pricey for a 31-year-old. Solid and dependable I am sure but unremarkable.

2) Valente, one of our most experienced players, and only genuine LB cover, has left. Will the lack of cover lull Baines into complacency?

3) We haven’t addressed the chronic lack of creativity in midfield. Whilst I have high hopes for Bilyaletdinov, we surely don’t want to lay all our hopes on a Russian who is going to have to adapt to a totally new culture, both footballing and in a wider sense.

4) We can only imagine what would have happened had we not sold Lescott. Would we be here as the club who spent the least money?

The Optimist in me tells another story:

1 ) At RB we now have someone of true International pedigree.

2) On the Flanks we now have options with Bilyaletdinov and Pienaar which allow Arteta to play his best role without compromising the team.

3) The defence looks solid.
4) In Yak, Saha, Jo and Cahill I believe we have options in attack.

5) Of the players we have lost, it is only Lescott who we will miss. VdM was not a First Team member, ditto (sadly) was Nuno. Castillo and Jacobsen also played peripheral roles, They probably turned out for the Reserves more than the First Team

6) Rodwell.........

It's up to all Everton fans to make their own minds up. The Jury is definitely still out on this summer. Whilst I don’t think it has been disastrous, I for one am still left thinking we have once again come up that little bit short.

Jay Harris
12   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:50:44

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Mike Cloherty
I wish you’d get your facts straight before coming on here to criticise others.

"Liverpool — Have backing and CL money but large debts and sold most creative midfielder without recruiting anyone new"

They only spent £36 million on Johnson and Aquilana!!!

"Arsenal — Despite big success, still cannot compete with the big boys on transfers 1 big players becoming restless with no success — starting to leave" thats why they spent £12 million on Vermaelen and are struggling near the top of the league!!

"Stoke — Struggle to get any real quality in and meet wages/ unfashionable club"

Have signed Huth, Tuncay, Whitehead, Arismendi!!

"Aston Villa — Sound backing and spent a fair bit, but is Downng, Collins and Dunne any better than our three signings?"

Not to mention
H Beye (Newcastle United, £3m), C Cameron (Northampton Town, undisc), F Delph (Leeds United, £6.5m rising to £8m), S Downing (Middlesbrough, £12m), R Dunne (Manchester City, £6m), A Marshall (Coventry City, free), S Warnock (Blackburn Rovers, £6m), J Collins (West Ham United, £5m).
I make that £40 million and a much beefier squad.

"Fulham — Injured players, owner who is no longer willing to back them significantly, but does not want to sell. Cannot afford new ground that they hoped to build"

Only signed Duff, Greening, Elm, Dikgacoi and Kelly!!

I could go on but if you’re happy with the lateness and substance of our transfer dealings you must be really easily pleased.
Chad Schofield
13   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:24:06

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Jay I agreed with your post... but I applaud you for your responses on the whole, though I feel that you may be a little over critical towards our new signings. I hope they turn out to be good, and I’m sorry we’ve missed out on Benega — but fundamentally you’re right, why the fuck did we wait until yesterday to try and wrap up these deals.

It’s a complete shambles and to point at City for only paying what we expected towards the window closing is like blaming VDM for the crack down on binge drinking... there’s an element of truth but it’s not all down to that. Why would you leave this all until the last minute? It’s not saved us money — in fact it’s cost us more in terms of Heitinga!!! And in terms of time and energy couldn’t we have put more elsewhere is we’d have sorted the potential deals pre-September?

I'm not sucicidal by any means, but I fully agree that the "Everton Way" is fucking us up badly.

John Maxwell
14   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:51:24

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Jay, quote: "So that leaves us with no replacement for Valente i.e. no cover for LB"

Cover for Valente? Are you unwell... get some help!! How can we take you seriously with comments like that... if we wanted cover for Valente then maybe the groundsman should let the grass grow longer down the left side... That would be more contribution then he made to our squad last year.
Jay Harris
15   Posted 02/09/2009 at 01:21:53

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John it seems as if a few people want to get me help!!

Now that Lescott and Valente have gone who would you suggest as cover if Baines gets injured or loses form??

Maybe it’s not only me that needs help!!
David Ellis
16   Posted 02/09/2009 at 03:06:00

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Sorry Jay I am going to have to weigh in on the side of those who think you need help.

Yes its frustrating - we do not have the big backer we need to compete in the Champions League. The chances of us breaking in on our own are practically nil.

If this is "not good enough" for some of our supporters then so be it.

Over borrowing (which I think we are dangerously close to doing) is the worst course of action. There is no correlation between transfer money spent and success on the pitch. This is not a matter of opinion, independent studies confirm this. There is a correlation between wages and success. We need to keep our best players and renew their contracts by paying decent wages. We are doing this. However if you get a silly offer for a player you should take it. We have also done this (although perhaps not intentionally).

The squad is stronger in all departments than a year ago. Yes we lack some cover at left back but Neville can play left back (and has done so regularly for us, Man U and England) and the Irish boy Collins can also play in that position (but of course no first team experience yet - but this is 3rd level cover we will need to live with for now).

Net net we have filled in two pieces of the jig saw for zero outlay on transfers (but big investment in wages). If the new signings perform as hoped we will be a much stronger side.

Now what more can you reasonably expect? Yes it would be better if we had done this all in July, but this is not within Moyes or BK’s control. We are going for higher quality players and this takes more patience than buying make weights. Quality not quantity is what matters. Although are squad is small it is flexible and it also helps the band of brother mentality. It also gives chances to youth at times. This is all positive stuff.
David Ellis
17   Posted 02/09/2009 at 03:15:10

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Jay
I do agree with you that Tuncay and Krancjar look like bargains. However we have sufficient forwards so maybe there was no real need for Tuncay . He can play wide right but this is not really his best position (I think we have heard that before).

Krancjar is a different matter. He would give some cover for Arteta in the middle and is probably a better option than Osman on the right.
But we don’t really know the story. Maybe the price was too high earlier in the window or we were hoping for other signings that did not come off. Perhaps we could have bidded up the price as he obviously preferred Spurs because of the Croatian/Harry link. However we will surely survivie without him.
Kirk McArdle
18   Posted 02/09/2009 at 05:07:48

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The Everton Way. Whilst I would love to have seen Banega, Defour, Moutinho, Veloso and Van der Vaart grace the pitch at Goodison this season I fall into the "realistic fan" category. This close season has seen Man Utd collect £80M with less than £20M spent.

Chelsea have reigned in their spending as opposed to all previous seasons under Abramovich.

Liverpool have severe money problems. They sold Alonso on the back of a excellent season. I am convinced that if they had signed Barry last year and sold Alonso then, that they would have got half of the £32M Real have paid. Johnson was bought for £7M with the remainder of Crouch debt wiped clean and Aquiliani was £17M.

There is a trend starting to come into the world of football (Man City and Real Madrid exempt) that all clubs are having to tighten the purse strings. I do believe that it is time for a change at board level as Kenwright has obviously taken as far as he can. He has his critics but with him at the helm we have become a team that is respected for the way a club is run.

The time has eventually come that clubs are being told "No more money. In fact, we want some of the hundreds of millions of pounds we have lent you back. NOW" As I said a couple of weeks ago all clubs now have to be run in debt. But it is the level of debt that is important now. We are still in a position to service our debt but other clubs will not be.

Some posts on here are asking why we did not follow up our enquiries for TuncAy and make a move for Kranjcar earlier? I make the statement that neither of these players would be a step in right direction whilst still costing us another £7-8M in fees not including wages.

I am happy with the purchases this close season (although I would have liked them for pre-season if there was one, but defo for the Arsenal game). Not saying the outcome of the game would have been different but players should be bought for the start of the season.

(On a side note. Why does Fifa not say window closes on August 1st or that no league starts before 1st September?) I feel as though I am starting to ramble so......... I believe that "The Everton Way" might be the way forward for many clubs in future. Might be nice to know that we could become trend setters!!!!

Derek Thomas
19   Posted 02/09/2009 at 06:39:52

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Jay, the Tuncays and Krancjars would be fine fee-wise and not bad players but while we can sometimes do the fee and sometimes not. It’s the wages that add up.

There isn’t a glass ceiling that stops us jumping up but the sticky floor of no investment. Paper the floor with money and see how high we could go.
Neil Pearse
20   Posted 02/09/2009 at 07:48:38

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Jay, I think you do need help (!). I also think you defeated your own point by going through who others signed.

The easy one is Villa. No-one could seriously prefer Collins and Dunne to Distin and Heitinga. And on Downing and Bily - well, we’ll see, but I’m glad we’ve got Bily. Delph may turn out to be an inspired purchase, but he’s young and probably not going to be as good as Rodwell this year.

Kirk is right. A new wind is blowing and there is a less money around apart from the crazies at Man City and Real Madrid. And Platini is on their case now, hopefully.

True, we got quality rather than quantity this time, and it may come back to bite us. We really need a strong defensive midfielder in my opinion. I guess that’s now going to be Rodwell. But clearly the policy now is to go for who we really want and, if we don’t get them, don’t buy makeweights instead. I think that makes sense.

By the way, would everyone stop worrying about LB! Distin has played there, and Neville has played there for his bloody country.
Dan Brierley
21   Posted 02/09/2009 at 08:32:44

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Krancjar turned us down due to demanding too much wages for what is essentially a squad player for us, and Tuncay has ended up at that hugely attractive team called Stoke. Such a big loss? I don’t think so. I don’t see the point in signing players to warm the bench. If you can justify having these two sitting on the bench for most of the season and pocketing over 2 million quid per year in wages each, then I’d love to hear your justification for that Jay.

I just cannot understand why some of our fans want to get us more and more in debt, when its clear there is no money to spend. They demand that chairman put their own money in, but should take nothing out. Apparently, this is called being ’ambitious’. However in the real world away from FM, it's called fucking ridiculous.
Neil Pearse
22   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:13:17

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The only clubs who did better than us in the transfer window were Man City and Spurs. Where are the senior Dutch and Russian internationals signed by the rest?

If that’s being unambitious, fine. I think it’s being relatively poor but able to attract much higher quality players than nearly all our competitors. (And pay their wages.)
Ciarán McGlone
23   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:23:47

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’We’ve bought Distin, Bily and Heitinga for maybe £20m. These look like the right players, wth the right track records, in the right positions.’
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We’ve not spent anywhere near £20mill, and perhaps you can tell me, which one of those players is a playmaker and which one is a right winger?

Right positions my arse! Soon we’ll have a team of ultility players... jack of all trades, masters of feckin none.
Will Green
24   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:16:44

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I agree with Jay, Tuncay would have been a great move 6ft, adaptable (up front, right side), hard working, and a national hero in Turkey so re-selling on not a problem. And please please do not tell me the only money we have to spend is the Lescott money. Unless Moyes changes his cautious stance we will be stuck with Osman on the right.

In my opinion we have been far more negitive in the last 2 weeks than we ever have, at least in the old days we only had one defensive midfielder in Carsley now we have two in Rodwell and Pip.

Neil Pearse
25   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:29:47

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Ciaran, you probably disagree with this, but it’s pretty clear that tactically Moyes does not do out and out wingers (he probably learnt his lesson with VdM). He doesn’t buy Lennons or SWPs, because he doesn’t set the team out like that.

You are disagreeing with his tactics, fine. But we didn’t get an out and out right winger because Moyes didn’t want one.

I agree with you I would have liked a Banega/Defour playmaker. That’s I assume why we tried to get one.
Terry Maddock
26   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:36:28

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Can we have a headline permanently placed on the homepage for the fools who can't comprehend that South Africa did not qualify for the African Nations Cup... STEPHEN PIENAAR will be here!!!!

And we have replaced!!! 4 players who played a total of 6 games between them... with a centre half who has missed 8 games in 3 seasons, last year's Dutch Player of the Year... and a Russian international who Andrei Kanchelskis says will be a huge player for Everton....

I really am at my wits end..

Mike Cloherty
27   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:41:33

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Jay,

Please tell me where my facts are not straight?

"Liverpool- I said they have backing and CL money but large debts and sold most creative midfielder. Now that is pretty factual to me. I then referred to them not recruiting anyone new. Here I maybe should have stated that I meant someone in Alonso’s role. Aquilana may be that person, but by the time he is fit and accustomed to the Premier league, will Liverpool be in with a shot at the title?

Arsenal: I said they cannot compete with the big boys in transfers. What is not true about that? You mention 12 million for Vermaelen. For Christ sake, we spent 15 million on Fellaini! Does that make us the next Chelsea. When it comes to the money that United, Chelsea and to a certain extent Liverpool offer, Arsenal cannot compete. They are a great footballing side and have started well, but do you think they will be winning the league come May 2010?? And like I said, with Adebayor already lured by wages that Arsenal cannot compete with, and Fabregas looking to Spain, their (top) players will become resteless the longer they miss out on league titles


Stoke: I said that they Struggle to get any real quality in and meet wages and are an unfashionable club. You come Back with “Huth,Tuncay,Whitehead,Arismendi!!” Well blow me, why did we not go for that donkey Huth or the mighty Dean Whitehead! And the effervescent Tuncay who was part of a relegated team! Jay, at a push, Tuncay may have been a descent squad player, but for 6 million???!!!

Aston Villa- I said they had “sound backing and spent a fair bit, but is Downng, Collins and Dunne any better than our three signings?" you then went on to list the other players they bought, including the ones I already mentioned as some sort of point about a large squad. Please tell me, Delph aside maybe (although he has only played Division 1 football) who would you buy out of that crock you mentioned beyond the three players I did.

Fulham- I said they have problems with injured players-fact. I said their owner is no longer willing to back them SIGNIFICANTLY, but does not want to sell. Tell me where that is untrue? And they cannot afford the new ground that they hoped to build. Again, Jay, I’m trying to find the lie here?? You mention Duff, Greening, Elm, Dikgacoi and Kelly. I say washed up, mediocre, wrong Elm, who? and would you want him?


You then say, “I could go on but if you’re happy with the lateness and substance of our transfer dealings you must be really easily pleased.”

Well like I said in my initial post Jay “We all know we want someone different than Kenwright, we all know we would like top signings at the BEGINNING of the transfer window”.

Get a grip on reality Jay. Go have a cup of tea, maybe book a table for a meal with your missus, and get some perspective on reality before talking continuing to talk tosh.
Ciarán McGlone
28   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:45:32

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"You are disagreeing with his tactics, fine. But we didn’t get an out and out right winger because Moyes didn’t want one."
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Preposterous supposition.
Ciarán McGlone
29   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:46:12

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"No you want sulking, greasy twat Tuncay, and "couldn’t- hit-a-pig-in-an-entry," Krancjar!!

Can you imagine these two fat mercenaries on a wet Tuesday night in Hull? These players are inexpensive for a reason, I’ll give you that. Their respective clubs want rid to raise capital, but they aren’t that great and I doubt they would even bust a gut to compensate!"

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Kevin, that’s utter tripe.

Tuncay is well know for his committed displays and Krancjar would improve most teams in the Premier League — and he plays the central playmaker role we were screaming out for!
Neil Pearse
30   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:42:22

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And to pile on about Villa. Imagine what the caterwauling on this site would be if we’d sold Arteta to Man City and replaced him with... Delph. That’s what they just did by selling Barry.

And under that wonderful owner Mr Lerner too. Wish we had him, then we too might get players like Richard Dunne and Stephen Warnock. Toffeeweb mailbag would have positively gone up in flames if we’d bought those two!

Lighten up Jay. Get some context and perspective. We don’t have the money of Man City or Spurs, but things are really not that bad.
Neil Pearse
31   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:50:29

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Thanks for the very unhelpful and uninformative response Ciaran. You might like to enlighten me as to what’s "preoposterous" about pointing out that Moyes does not want to buy the kind of players that you would like to buy?
Ciarán McGlone
32   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:52:26

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It’s preposterous because you are suggesting you know what Moyes wants.

That’s Walter Mitty territory.

And by the way...going by early viewings of Delph...Villa have improved on the sluggish and one-dimensional Barry.
Neil Pearse
33   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:52:09

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In case you didn’t get it Ciaran: what’s obvious is that Moyes uses players like Pienaar, Osman, Gosling, Arteta and now Bily in ’wide’ positions. He doesn’t buy wingers like Young, Lennon, SWP. That’s not how we play. Your problem?
Neil Pearse
34   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:56:00

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I judge what Moyes wants by what he’s done for over seven years. No mind reading required Ciaran!
Stian Skaar
35   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:54:27

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Jay Harris - left backs available are Distin and Neville.
Dave Wilson
36   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:57:52

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"Moyes does not do wingers, he just doesnt set his team out that way"

You're wrong, Neil, he does, but he still insists on apllying his square peg round hole mentality to the role

That's why: Radzinsky, Johnson, Arteta, Pienaar, Osman, Anichebe, Beatty, Jo and even the Yak have all been ask to play out there. Moyes lines up 4-5-1 99.9% of the time, are you really suggesting he does that without wide men???
Kevin Hudson
37   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:56:44

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To be fair, Jay, you do raise an interesting point regarding the future paucity of the squad regarding Afcon, (is it this year?) and left back cover. God knows I don’t want to see Neville deployed there, I still get cold sweats thinking about his Euro2004 "contribution" in that role !!

As others have mentioned ,youth may get a chance;but quite possibly,these were the areas Moyes may have been looking at with his "4 or 5 more players," comment. But to be fair,I’m not too worried. I think we’ll be fine..

Oh and Ciaran... Tuncay — 7 goals last season. Kranjcar — 9 goals in 80 appearances for Pompey. That my friend, is tripe... (Again... Too easy.)
Brian Lawlor
38   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:02:38

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Tuncay and Krancjar are both good players and available for good money. Particurlarly Krancjar who us an excellent playmaker.

Moyes made several enquiries over Krancjar including yesterday morning.
Spurs got a real steal with him.
Stian Skaar
39   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:04:41

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Dave Wilson - Being an out and out winger is not the same as being a wide midfielder. I see that Neil Pearse has stated the same thing, so I’ll stop there.
Ciarán McGlone
40   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:07:16

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I judge what Moyes wants by what he’s done for over seven years. No mind reading required Ciaran!
-----------------

Yes, that’s what known as guesswork.

The fact that he commonly employs attacking midfielders in traditional wing positions would go someway to dismissing if not completely contradicting your reading of Moyes mind.
Dave Wilson
41   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:04:26

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Jay Harris

Sorry to forgot to say, you are pissing into the wind mate, your points are absolutely spot on. But while we have so many people not only prepared to accept the lies, but who will do their level best to justify them, you will never ever get the honesty you crave from the Everton board.
Dave Wilson
42   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:11:03

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Stian

Enlighten me, what's the difference between a wide midfielder and a winger — apart from terminology?
Ciarán McGlone
43   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:15:16

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"Oh and Ciaran... Tuncay —7 goals last season. Kranjcar — 9 goals in 80 appearances for Pompey. That, my friend, is tripe... ( Again... Too easy)"
-----------------------------

Number of goals is the only definitive indicator of a good midfielder ..eh Kevin!

Try watching them.
Neil Pearse
44   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:12:48

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Disagree Ciaran and Dave W. Moyes plays attacking midfielders in ’wide’ positions (rather than out and out wingers) for reasons we all know.

Moyes values a ’high pressing game’, in which all players are required to tackle back, to come inside to cover etc. etc.. That’s also of course why he generally prefers 4-5-1: two out and out attackers are too much of a luxury for our Davey. At times he (in my opnion) takes this to ridiculous extremes and plays TWO holding midfielders (those sorry days of Carsley and Neville).

Watching Villa the other night I saw Ashley Young hugging the flank and doing a pretty non-existent job of covering back or inside. Just not how Moyes plays!

As I say, totally fair to criticize Moyes’s defence first tactics. But a bit hard blaming him for not buying players he doesn’t want. VdM was an obvious mistake for Moyes because he did not do the defensive bit. This also explains of course why he has persisted with Osman.
Stian Skaar
45   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:21:55

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Dave Wilson - see post from Neil Pearse.
Ciarán McGlone
46   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:27:54

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Neil,

Stop making a distinction that doesn’t exist. A false dichotomy will not convince anyone with a bit of footballing nous.

Moyes buys utility players — that doesn’t mean he doesn’t play them in a certain position... we play wingers, wide players, line huggers — call them whatever you want... in a 4-5-1. That’s a fact.
Phil Martin
47   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:20:42

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First things first -Heitinga, Distin and Bily are good signings. But we’ve only spent what city gave us for Lescott. We haven’t spent a penny more and I can’t believe some of the responses I’m reading here. If we hadn't have sold Lescott, we would have no money to spend. Thanks to the board we would’ve gone into the new season weaker than the season previous.

Don’t people understand that this lack of ambition (and limited commerical nouse) means that our best players realise to play with genuine top players and earn top money, they have to go elsewhere?

Forget comparing this summer’s spending to United. Compare our spending to theirs over the last 3 years, we dont even hit 20% of their net spend. Likewise Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Villa, Newcastle etc etc...

Ask yourselves why we have no money, is because: crap ground? no new investment? limited marketing and PR operations? — who is responsible for overseeing all this?

Who was supposed to find us a new home 9 years ago when it first became obvious that GP wasnt big/modern enough to take us forward?

Who had had 9 years to attract major investors (like every other PL club has had)?

Who lied to its fans about DK — about its capacity, quality and cost?

Who cancelled the AGMs (for the first time ever in the club’s history)?

Who promised they are looking for investment but in the planning permision for Kirkby stated had no intention of selling?

Who has failed to deliver adaquate funds to its manager for the n-th consecutive summer — despite high finishes and European football being achieved on the pitch?

David Ellis
48   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:30:13

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Genuine wingers are rare - Stanley Matthews retired some time ago. The reason is the modern game has moved on. We need players that are more versatile. They need to cover back, head the ball, tackle etc as well as being good at crossing. The ability to go past a man one on one is now less important because a second defender is often there to fill the gap. Its more about off the ball movement and passing/crossing.

Now this may be semantics - those who use the term winger may be referreing to the wide player in a 4-5-1 - so be it.

However we needed two new wide players and got one. That is one more than nothing. And one less than two. My glass is half full. For Jay, Ciaran and others it is totally empty. Come on guys - its no more than half empty.
Mike Allison
49   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:36:58

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Ciaran you obviously did well in your AS Critical Thinking exam but I’m afraid that’s not really a ’false dichotomy’ that Neil’s making, you are in fact guilty of ’conflation’ (that’s treating two different things as if they were the same).

Differences between wingers and wide midfielders are many and various, some of which you have already read but ignored. I would say the two crucial ones are these though:

1) Wingers play wider, hugging the touchline and stretching the opposition defence out, thus creating gaps inside. Wide midfielders play narrower and are expected to help the central midfielders out more.

2) The qualities expected of the two players are different. Wingers are expected to be pacy, run with the ball, attacking their full back and beating a man or two, think Nevin, or early Giggs (or Beagrie). Wide midfielders are better passers and crossers of the ball, think Sheedy or Beckham, and could comfortably play in the centre of the park if need be.

What is ’false’ about this DISTINCTION is that any given player doesn’t necessarily fit into one or the other categories in terms of qualities, and the formations or roles managers ask their players to play don’t necessarily match up with one or the other roles I’ve listed.

You should see them as two ends of a scale, rather than a one or the other choice.
Dave Wilson
50   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:48:33

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Neil/ Stian, sorry guys thats just gibberish, Pienaar and Osman have less license to come inside than SWP and Lennon, the players you actually call wingers, even Moyes knows if you play 5 across the middle you have to cover the width of the pitch.

Just admit it, they do the same job but Moyes employs central midfielders or strikers to do the job for us; you can't have it both ways, if you want to be happy with utility players — and you clearly are — then you have to recognise the positions they are being asked to play.

Stian Skaar
51   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:47:54

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Phil Martin - I’m not a financial expert, but I understand this: teams that play every year in the Champions League are guaranteed probably £15-20m just for reaching the group stages and getting a couple of wins there, and loads more for further progress. This is set to rise this season as well.

The Champions League money train explains why Liverpool, United, Arsenal and Chelsea are way ahead of the pack. Also important regarding commercial issues, sponsors etc.

I’m sorry, but Europa League and FA Cup Final doesn’t measure up in the slightest.

When or if we break into the Champions League, it will be a whole new ballground. But it’s also important we don’t break our necks getting there, like Leeds.
Dave Wilson
52   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:59:31

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"Wide players play narrower" Lol
Dave Wilson
53   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:02:14

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Mike, it is you who is guilty of "conflation". The particular merits/skills of an individual has absolutely nothing to do with the role his manager asked him to perform.
Phil Martin
54   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:03:25

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Stian Skaar,

You ignored 99% of my post. So Spurs/ Villa/ Newcastle/Sunderland who all outspend us, achieve regular Champs League football do they?

Again ask yourself why this year Stoke’s net spend was greater than ours? Then read my post again and answer the questions I raised.
Kevin Hudson
55   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:56:16

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Expanding the definition of a good midfielder then Ciaran-surely we can agree that neither of these players are in the Lee Carsley mode,right?

So,having already factually pointed out their limitations in front of goal,lets see what they do offer:

Tuncay (club & country) 2007-08: 3 goal assists in 28 starts. 2008-09; 9 goal assists in 53 starts.

On to Krancjar (club & country) 2007-08: 6 goal assists in 38 starts. 2008-09: 5 goals assists in 38 starts

We already have players who weigh in which similar statistics-this wouldn’t be a step forward ! Arguing for argument’s sake,Ciaran, so stick to upsetting grandmothers in future, leaving the proper stuff to those who know what they’re talking about..

For example, yesterday's pearl: £6million spent on cover!!
(Iterum quoque facilis)
Ciarán McGlone
56   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:13:40

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Mike, Conflation?

Perhaps, you should explain that one to Moyes.... because were he employs his ’wide players’ and what he expects them to do — is exactly the same as the winger you’ve just described.

Oh and I don’t think definitions are really necessary everytime you use a new word... You can assume that most on here probably know what it means.
Ciarán McGlone
57   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:25:05

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Kevin, that was poor.

As I said. Try watching them play football matches mate... Leave pointless stats to Garth Crooks.

Oh, and please don’t make yourself look stupid by declaring yourself more ’knowledgeable’... that’s not your call — and you’ve only just recovered from the last time.
Stian Skaar
58   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:20:32

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Phil - it’s not a spending competition. It’s about bringing in quality players in the positions where we need more competition for places. It sounds as if you would be happy if Moyes had just spent £10m more on any players.

It’s also about wages, and a wage structure. This makes it difficult to suddenly bring in a star player on high wages, because other players will want higher wages as a result. This makes it more complicated.

To really make a judgement or assessment on these issues, we need facts:

- how much has clubs in the PL spent this window, and the last three years?

- how much debt have the clubs got?

- how much income have they got?

- how much of the income goes to servicing the debt?

- how much of income is spent on wages (should be around 50 percent)

Anybody got a link to these kinds of facts?
Mike Allison
59   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:37:13

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Dave Wilson, oh dear;

(1) I didn’t say that, I said wide midfielders play narrower, and I stand by that. (Wingers are on the wing, wide MIDfielders are nearer the middle, so you can laugh at the language in a ridiculous way all you want, but even in your childish terms, it still makes sense).

(2) "The particular merits/skills of an individual has absolutely nothing to do with the role his manager asked him to perform"

What? Surely they have absolutely everything to do with the role managers ask their players to perform...

(3) What two things am I ’conflating’ into one?

And Ciaran, I’m afraid I won’t necessarily assume people know what words mean, as I’ve seen people slagged off on here before for using ’fancy’ words by the people that didn’t understand them.
Ciarán McGlone
60   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:49:49

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’Conflation’ is hardly a fancy word.

And Dave is right. You are conflating a players natural position with the actual position they are instructed to play.

We play a 4-5-1 with wide player — who for all intents and purposes perform the role of a winger — whether that is their natural position or not.
Mike Allison
61   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:55:42

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"’Conflation’ is hardly a fancy word." — In that case dichotomy isn’t either but you still got that wrong.

"And Dave is right. You are conflating a players natural position with the actual position they are instructed to play."

No I’m not. Are you in the team talks? How do you know what they are instructed to do?

"We play a 4-5-2 with wide player — who for all intents and purposes perform the role of a winger — whether that is their natural position or not."

No we don’t. Our wide players are Osman and Pienaar, both of whom look to come inside, and neither of whom hug the touchline. As was mentioned above, the likes of Ashley Young, waiting out wide, play as wingers, Osman certainly doesn’t, and Pienaar only pulls that far wide from time to time if he sees it as necessary.
Dave Wilson
62   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:45:58

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So Mike when Moyes asked people like Beatty, AJ, Osman etc to play out on the right it, It’s because of their ability to protect the full back, or to skip past a player and whip a cross in?

If a players particular skills had EVERYTHING to do with the role a manager has asked him to perform, No player would ever play out of position would we ?

Understand? confusing an individuals skills with the postion the manager asked him to play = conflation.

Trying to claim there is a difference between two players performing the same role by using different terminology is idiotic. do you think SAF says to giggs before a match "Right Giggsy your not playing wide midfield today your playing on the wing" Lol.

Stop trying to complicate a simple game, mate.

Ciarán McGlone
63   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:03:59

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"No I’m not. Are you in the team talks? How do you know what they are instructed to do?"
---------------------------

No, I watch the games. Its obvious. To me anyway.

Osman comes inside because he’s crap and can’t keep his positioning... hence the Hibbert connundrum.

I didn’t get it wrong... distinguishing between wide players and wingers — in our case — is most certainly a false dichotomy.
Stian Skaar
64   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:01:57

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Ciarán - conflation sounds fancy to me. And I’ve been to university and all. Explanations are appreciated.

And historically and in the game today, a winger is not the same as a wide midfielder. Of course, today not many teams afford themselves whingers :)
Paul Lenehan
65   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:57:27

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I'm not going to criticize the caliber of the signings we have made, as I think all three will add to the team and certainly give us more options.

However I share the same frustrations as what seems like most Evertonians at the way this and last summer was handled. It is simply not good enough. This summer was identical to last summer. It has cost us points and yet nobody from the club can explain why lessons weren’t learned from last year.

The extra games of the Europa League will put a significant burden on our playing resources. What concerns me most is that our squad was threadbare come the end of last season, yet we are down on numbers again.

Nobody on any of the sites is saying that we should have spent a fortune, but surely some money was available to spend before Lescott went. Its not good enough that a club of our stature, for the past two seasons, has had to sell in order to do any business. I mean stoke can go out a spend £18 million. It begs the question what would be have done if AJ and Lescott weren’t sold or refused to go? Shambles doesn’t describe it.
David Ellis
66   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:02:09

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Phil Martin

Stoke may have outspent us on a net basis this year - recently promoted clubs generally have a lot of spare cash. Why? because a lot of their players are still on Championship wages. When they get promoted their top line revenue goes up and as their cost base takes a bit of time to increase the initial impact is a dramatic increase in profits. Its the reverse of the Leeds Utd, Southampton, Leicester effect.

Within a couple of seasons the promoted teams increase their cost base as they buy new players and renew old contracts at Premier League rates. They then have no spare cash to spend on new players.

In any event there is no correlation between transfer spending and results. The correlation is between wages and results. As others have pointed out it is not a spending competition. The important thing is to spend wisely. Sometimes that means spending less or indeed nothing on a net basis. The powder will be kept dry for other uses - unless you think the board is milking the club - but there is no evidence of that. Where the money goes is in the audited accounts - more than half of it goes on wages.

For really detailed information on the comparative finances of football clubs there is a detailed report prepared by Deloittes every year. I would love to read it but it costs GBP350+ - anyone got a copy they could lend me????
Mike Allison
67   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:29:28

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"So Mike when Moyes asked people like Beatty, AJ, Osman etc to play out on the right it, It’s because of their ability to protect the full back, or to skip past a player and whip a cross in ?"

I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here. When Moyes asks people to play out of position like this its because he doesn’t have endless players each with the particular nuance he wants for the particular opposition or situation. He seems happy with the way Osman interprets that position as he keeps picking him, AJ had the pace if not the close control to worry the opposition full back and I can’t remember when Beattie played wide, that was either desperate or an outright mistake.

"If a players particular skills had EVERYTHING to do with the role a manager has asked him to perform, No player would ever play out of position would we ?"

I don’t know if you’re doing this on purpose, but obviously players need to be adapted into different roles at different times, however my basic sentiment is correct though. This is why Yobo doesn’t
play left wing and Yakubu doesn’t play centre back.

"Understand ? confusing an individuals skills with the postion the manager asked him to play = conflation."

To be honest, no, not really. A player’s individual skills massively affect how they play the ’position’ the manager has asked him to play. I can’t be conflating these two things because they’re not even the same type of thing.

"Trying to claim there is a difference between two players performing the same role by using different terminology is idiotic. do you think SAF says to giggs before a match "Right Giggsy your not playing wide midfield today your playing on the wing" Lol."

That’s the point though, there is a difference, they’re not performing exactly the same role. You might write them down on a piece of paper in the same place, but what they actually do on the pitch isn’t necessarily the same. As for your ’LOL’ (are you a 13 year old girl?) about Giggs, well, actually, managers do exactly that. I’m sure they don’t say ’winger’ or ’wide midfielder’ but they will ask the player to do different things depending on whether they’re home or away, winning or losing, on top and dominating possession or under the cosh and so on.
Dan Brierley
68   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:51:14

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Phil Martin,

"You ignored 99% of my post. So Spurs/ Villa/ Newcastle/Sunderland who all outspend us, achieve regular Champs League football do they?"

---------------------------------------------------------
No, they do not.

Spurs make profit, as they have a season ticket waiting list, and Season ticket prices can command more than double our average prices. They also have excellent corporate packages.

Villa average 4,000 each home game more than us in attendance, also with higher ticket prices due to less obstructed views. They also happen to have a billionaire chairman.

Newcastle average 13,000 more for each home game than us, also in a superior stadium with better corporate facilities.

Sunderland average home gates are 4,500 more than us, in a superior stadium without obstructed views. They also have good returns on corporate clients.

I hope this answers your question, about why other teams can spend more than us. Put simply, it is because they earn a lot more through tickets, and merchandising. An extra £3-4 million per year can service around £20-25 million worth more of debt.

Feel free to have a look at Everton’s accounts, which are published annually. Just like all other Premier League teams.
Steve Pugh
69   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:02:50

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How many times do people come on here and complain that Osman and Pienaar spend too much time coming inside and don’t act like proper wingers? So are they acting like wide midfielders under instruction from Moyes, or do they get a bollocking at the end of every game but ignore the gaffer cos they are more important than the club and can do what they want.

Secondly, we haven’t bought a RW or creative midfielder, instead we bought a left sided attacking midfielder. Thus freeing up Pienaar to play on the right, not perfect but better than Ossie, or maybe keep Ossie on the right and Pienaar can play as a creative central midfielder, a role a lot of you have been wanting him to occupy. So we have filled one of the two positions, just in a subtler way than some people can appreciate.
Ciarán McGlone
70   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:27:27

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In a subtler way than some people can appreciate?

Good one Steve.

As for your Osman comment - You are of course right...I can just imagine it now....FA cup final dressing room..Moyes tells Osman that he doesn’t want him sticking to the wide role he’s been assigned in the 5 man midfield - he wants him to drift inside, clutter our midfield and leave Hibbert mercilessly exposed.

Certainly makes sense.

Dave Wilson
71   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:23:37

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Mike that is the root of the problem, you dont get it, your basic sentiment is not correct, if a manager - Moyes asks a player - Osman to play wide right, it does not mean Osman is equipped to do the job, it does not make him a wide right player, because Moyes believes he can play there doesnt make it so, its only an opinion, apparently not one shared by the overwhelming majority of Evertonians, You throw in a flipant remark about Yobo playing wide but I’d wager a large section of our support would prefer Yobo out there to Osman . . . . Opinion

Ask 50 spurs supporters whether Lennon plays wide midfield or on the wing and you’ll get a healthy split in their answers, but it wont change the way Lennon plays, its terminology a wide midfield player is a winger, an outside left/right, a flanker.
Lennon, Giggs, SWP, will still perform the same function whatever the new Malcolm Allisons want to call them

And since when did LOL become the exclusive right of the 13 year old girl ?
if you have another, more acceptable way you would like people to use when they are actually Lol then tell me, I’m more than happy to use it.
Jay Harris
72   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:42:26

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Paul Lenehan and Phil Martin

At least you both understood the point I was trying to make.

The WAY we go about business is a shambles.

I am overall happy with the players we have brought in but there is nowhere near enogh of them to cover a season where we are supposed to be "GOING TO A HIGHER LEVEL" and we have Europe and the Afcon to deal with.

As Phil said if we hadnt sold Lescott,particularly for 24 million what the hell would we have done.

It is OK for people to come on and say we are in debt etc. but why lie and put bids in for Naughton and Delph and tell supporters "WE HAVE THE FUNDS AND WE ARE GOING TO BRING PLAYERS IN EARLY SO THEY GET A GOOD PRESEASON"

I know most supporters are relieved that we got 3 players for 1 but what about the departures of Lescott,VDM,Valente,Jacobsen and Castillo from a squad that nobody can deny struggled in the latter part of last season.

As I said EFC promise so much and then disappoint by not building on achievement and I know many Evertonians feel the same way irrespective of who we sign or dont sign.
Mike Allison
73   Posted 02/09/2009 at 14:52:00

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Again Dave, none of us know what Moyes tells Osman to do, all we can say is that he doesn’t seem to mind what he does too much as he keeps picking him. The Yobo remark wasn’t flippant, you were claiming that a player’s natural abilities bear no relation to the position they’re asked to play in, but they do. Would the majority of Evertonians really prefer to see Yobo wide right?

I wouldn’t like to talk to 50 Spurs supporters, let alone pay attention to what any of them say, but anyway you’re the one being hung up on terminology, I simply used it to make a distinction between two quite distinct roles within a football team.

At the start of a tight game, Harry Redknapp might tell Lennon to tuck inside, stay close to his central midfielder and not let the opposing full back go past him, also not to take risks with the ball and look to maintain possession. If Tottenham go behind, or are at home and want to press for the win, he might tell Lennon to pull right out wide and offer an outlet, not worry about the opposing full back going past as that’ll leave Lennon himself unmarked if the LB risks it, and to run at pace with the ball when he gets it, look to take a man on and get the ball in the box. This is the same player, in what you’re calling the same position/role, doing totally different things. Actually, Lennon is well suited to the second bit, whereas david Beckham or someone like Jermaine Jenas (or most central midfield players for that matter) are more suited to the first one. Managers often change their team selection based on this, SAF does it himself, playing Anderson ’on the left’ knowing full well he’ll stay tucked inside and help control the middle of the park but without giving much width or running at the opposition right back. Don’t call it ’winger’ and ’wide midfielder’ if you don’t want to, as that seems to be a problem for you, but don’t pretend the distinction doesn’t exist when it obviously does.
Mike Allison
74   Posted 02/09/2009 at 15:02:37

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Sorry Jay I meant to point out to you that Van Der Meyde, Jacobsen, Valente and even Castillo didn’t really feature much last season, so not replacing them doesn’t necessarily leave us much weaker, but it does represent a failure to significantly strengthen. I remember writing at the start of the summer that if we just replaced those four like for like with good players who were actually going to make significant and sustained contributions we’d be in a lot better shape than we were last season. Unfortunately even that didn’t happen. However, I would still argue that after Tuesday we are slightly stronger, and certainly aren’t carrying any dead wood like we were before. The dreaded ’like new signings’ phrase will also pop up when three of our best players return and hit their stride.
Ciarán McGlone
75   Posted 02/09/2009 at 15:39:43

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Mike, are youy seriously suggesting that because you’re a winger...you can only do one thing on a football pitch?

’Winger’ refers to the general position and role on the pitch..i.e working on the wing!

limiting your definition to one particular mode of play within that role is just plain daft.
Mike Allison
76   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:00:01

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No I’m not saying that, in fact I don’t really understand how you’ve taken that from what I’ve said. Again, you seem hung up on the terminology. As I said way back at the start, there are these two different roles (and in fact, all the combinations and subtle variations in between) that can be played by the man-whose-name-is-written-at-the-side-of-the-midfield. However, different players are better at doing different things. How would you describe Aaron Lennon’s position and how would you describe David Beckham’s? Surely you wouldn’t expect the same things of these two players, yet both would compete for the same ’position’ in a football team. I would say Lennon was a ’winger’ whereas Beckham is a ’wide midfielder’, it just seems to be a useful way of distinguishing between the type of player they are and the role they tend to play on the pitch.

A good way of thinking about it is considering what secondary position the player would play in, for example, David Beckham suits a central midfield role, whereas Lennon doesn’t, but Lennon would be a useful striker, whereas Beckham wouldn’t.

Another example would be to invite you to consider the difference between a ’central midfielder’ and a ’playmaker’. Both would play in the middle and be expected to do certain similar things, but a playmaker (eg Xavi, Arteta, Carrick) would be receiving and giving short passes regularly, looking to ’make play’ and control the ball, whereas a different type of central midfielder (eg Gerrard, Nolan, Cahill,) would look to make forward runs and get on the end of things, not come short to take responsibility for setting them up. Someone like Frank Lampard would represent a middle point between these two, as at different times he looks to do different things, whereas a lot of players much prefer one or the other role.

I don’t really see where I’m being ’plain daft’ in recognising obvious differences between roles footballers are expected to play.
Neil Pearse
77   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:09:48

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Ciaran and Dave: if you think David Beckham and Ryan Giggs (early version) are the same kind of player. fulfilling the same function - well, there is nothing I can certainly do to convince you otherwise. (Perhaps you also think that Mascherano and Gerrard are basically the same because they both play in central midfield?)

In over seven years Moyes has probably brought in 30 plus players into our club. How many of these have been line hugging wingers? One. (AvdM.)

Why do you think this is? (Hint: it may have something to do with the tactics he plays and what he demands of wide players.)

The bigger issue is this. Why do you guys spend all your time having a pop at the club, and never ever have a positive word to say? It doesn’t look much like fun to me.

Before you ask, I have PLENTY of negative things to say, and have said many of them over and again here. We should definitely have got a new central midfielder. Moyes is frequently way too defensive for my tastes. Kenwright says stupid luvvie things and doesn’t have enough money. The commercial side of our business has been shite. Etc. etc..

But we also just bought three very good players in the transfer window who will improve our team. Why do you find that SO hard to admit?
Ciarán McGlone
78   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:34:17

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Giggs and Beckham both played on the wing...early version or not. Going into the merits of both players talents is a completely different argument altogether...Please stick to the point in hand.
--------------------

"In over seven years Moyes has probably brought in 30 plus players into our club. How many of these have been line hugging wingers? One. (AvdM.)

Why do you think this is? (Hint: it may have something to do with the tactics he plays and what he demands of wide players.)"
------------------
Wrong. It may have something to do with the indisputable fact that Moyes has a hard on for utility players!


The fact that you suggest I have nothing ’positive to say about everton’ simply lumps you in with the other children on here Neil...When you’ve got no sensible argument as a counter, then you’ll simply stoop to the ’you lot are just negative everton haters’. It’s petulant and banal bullshit. It also proves you haven’t actually read what I’ve posted - as I’ve already quite clearly stated that I’m happy with the players brought in - it’s the ones who haven’t been brought in that is the problem.

Tell me this...If David Moyes is ’disappointed’ - what exactly gives you the right to tell me, or anybody else that they should not be disappointed as well?
Neil Pearse
79   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:46:32

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Don’t be an idiot Ciaran. I and others on this thread have been arguing with you hammer and tongues on this winger issue, and provided reason after reason why and how a winger is different from a wide player, and why Moyes prefers the latter over the former.

Your arguments on this are frankly just ridiculous (e.g. Ferguson doesn’t tell Giggs to either ’hug the flank’ or ’play more inside’ - OF COURSE HE DOES!! That’s precisely what managers are paid for!!).

We could have a good debate about whether Moyes’ consistent tactics of playing narrower and defensive, without traditional wingers, is a good thing or not. I can see pros and cons. But this argument about why he doesn’t buy the type of player he has never ever bought - it’s just silly.

Ciarán McGlone
80   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:56:57

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Jesus christ Neil...less of the idiot.

Here’s a little advice -you can take it or leave it...just because someone agrees with you, doesn’t make you right.

Oh and by the way...calling my arguments ’ridiculous’ - then producing something which you have merely appropriated as ’my argument’ is another silly tactic. I never mentioned Ferguson or what he says to Giggs..My argument is this If you play a 5 man midfield and there are two wide players generally playing on the wings..then they are fucking wingers. End of discussion.

Jay Harris
81   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:05:04

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Ciaran

Tell me this...If David Moyes is ’disappointed’ - what exactly gives you the right to tell me, or anybody else that they should not be disappointed as well?

Couldnt agree more but you will never persuade Neil.

Nice guy that he is he remains joint king of the apologists along with Doddy.
Ciarán McGlone
82   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:12:00

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I didn’t expect that one to be answered Jay..

It was loaded like an AK47.
Neil Pearse
83   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:12:24

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Ciaran - wide players and wingers are different. We’ve all explained why over and over. If you think they are the same, try watching some football this weekend. Shame Spurs aren’t playing Chelsea - you might have been able to spot that Deco and Lennon aren’t the same kind of players when they play ’wide’.

Jay - actually, I’m disappointed too. As I’ve said repeatedly, I think we needed the Banega type midfielder we didn’t get. But I think we are definitely stronger than last year, so I am pleased with that (I think Villa and notably Liverpool are weaker). And so I don’t use words like "farce" and "disgrace" and all the rest. I think we did okay given our known financial circumstances.

If not agreeing that a dreadful outrage has been committed is being an ’apologist’ - fine by me.
Ciarán McGlone
84   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:30:05

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Here’s another piece of advice Neil...repeating your point until your blue in the face doesn’t make you right either...

And neither does not knowing the position Deco plays, and including your mistake in your argument..Deco plays in the hole. NEXT.
Neil Pearse
85   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:52:45

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Ciaran, don’t be a pedantic ass. You know as well as I do that Deco has been deployed in a number of positions by Chelsea, including wide.

Try the difference between Joe Cole and SWP if you it helps you get your head around it. Think they are the same type of wide player? Think a manager might just as well play one or the other? Think Moyes would just as likely buy SWP as Cole if they were the same price?
Kevin Hudson
86   Posted 02/09/2009 at 18:30:24

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Aww Ciaran — here’s me thinking you were Mr Nice-guy. Thought we were friends now!!

"Knowledgeable," IS my call if I provide you with facts you overlook, and won’t consider; it certainly isn’t yours to make... Arteta’s the playmaker, Pienaar does it for Bfana Bfana, Bilyaletdinov craves that very same position, to say nothing of Cahill, Fellaini & Osman. You wanna overload that area with two more misfits? Too many cooks...

I’m steering clear of the conspicuously pleonastic tangent this thread has now gone down, but will remind you that your "knowledge" of Heitinga (£6M worth of: "cover"... Hilarious!) is well "wide" of the mark, and yes I am "recovering" from your refusal to repudiate my previous demolition of you.

You’re on a "wing" and a prayer, son. Although granted, you may have more expertise than me in "Antrim Hurling," which sounds fascinating... Take it easy, pest.
Dave Wilson
87   Posted 02/09/2009 at 18:32:34

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FFS Neil, just admit you're wrong.

The primary function of a winger is to hurt the opposition by delivering crosses from wide areas. Beckham, the guy you say didn’t play as a winger, did this on a regular basis. Lennon and Giggs, the guys you say ARE wingers, didn't/don't. You seem to be confusing the ability of a player to beat a man with his ability to play on the wing.

One of the finest wingers this country ever produced — Dave Thomas — wouldn't dream of even taking a man on if he could get his cross in without risking it.

And what has Gerrard or Mascherano got to do with the argument? Are you really suggesting two players of completely contrasting styles can play in the same position? Try Hibbert and Glen Johnson, both right-backs, or Big Dunc and Cottee, both strikers; your argument isn't just flawed, it's idiotic.

Mike, please don't fall into the trap of replying to what you think you read, try to stick to what was actually posted. I didn’t say the majority of Evertonian’s would prefer Yobo out wide to Ossie, I said a large section would and speaking as someone who travels around the country listening to the abuse Osman takes from our fans, I wasn’t offering an opinion, I was stating a fact.

David Chait
88   Posted 02/09/2009 at 20:24:00

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Geez how this broke down from a good debate into one of semantics none of us really care about (if we’re honest) I don’t know.... but in any event... the point of using other teams as benchmarks to how rubbish we were has been proved clearly wrong. And it is only stubborness that allows the argument to continue...
Hardly any clubs actually spent more than the transfer cash they got in.... if I were Villa I would be pissed off!!! Sold star player and leader for 12m to the richest team in the world.. and replaced with noone proven to take the mantle (and have a billionaire owner).... We sold our second best defender for 20m (net), who was really only worth 15m imo and have got potentially 3 first 11 starting players!!! Wow!!
Yes we need to see what Bily can do, but he has a sweet left foot, tricks and pace... Pienaar can do even better on the right.. so what is the big deal?!?

The other favourite argument being losing Castillo et al..... but lets then neglect to mention we bought in Peterlin, Mustafa.. that Rodwell is now 18 and maturing into a first team regular.... why bring up players that never playerd but neglect to mention new players that are on the fringes like they don’t count....
Groaners .. I’m afraid you are using only portions of the bigger picture to make your argument.... take into account all the facts.... it doesn’t work!
Mike Allison
89   Posted 02/09/2009 at 20:56:11

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"Mike

please dont fall into the trap of replying to what you think you read, try to stick to what was actually posted." I ’laughed out loud’ at that Dave, as that’s what you and Ciaran have done all day throughout this argument.

"I didn’t say the Majority of Evertonian’s would prefer Yobo out wide to Ossie, I said a large section would"

I re-checked your post and your use of the word ’majority’ was actually just before this, however I still doubt that any significant number of Evertonians would prefer Yobo to play wide right of the midfield instead of Osman. And if they do, I would quite happily dismiss all of them and their opinion as obviously wrong.

"and speaking as someone who travels around the country listening to the abuse Osman takes from our fans, I wasn’t offering an opinion, I was stating a fact "

No, you weren’t. To claim that you’d have to define what you meant by ’large section’.

Neil won’t admit he’s wrong because he isn’t. He and I can both see a distinction that you and Ciaran obviously can’t. And as for "And what has Gerrard or Mascherano got to do with the argument ? are you really suggesting two players of completely contrasting styles can play in the same position ? try Hibbert and Glen johnson, both rightbacks or Big Dunc and Cottee, both strikers, your argument isnt just flawed, its idiotic" I don’t understand what exactly you’re trying to say here, or what is idiotic, but Neil’s example is a good one, in fact if you include Xavi Alonso from last year’s Liverpool midfield, you’ve got three examples of players in the same ’position’ who have totally different roles based on their natural abilities. I don’t understand why you don’t understand that. As for Big Dunc and Tony Cottee, one of the most commonly used distinctions is that between a ’centre forward’ and a ’striker’. Duncan was a ’centre forward’ while Cottee was a ’striker’. You can choose to ignore these things if you like, but don’t tell us the distinctions don’t exist, because they do.


Ciaran:

"Here’s another piece of advice Neil...repeating your point until your blue in the face doesn’t make you right either..."

Take your own advice brother! And while you’re at it don’t get touchy about the word idiot when you’ve used ridiculous, daft and the like- take what you’re dishing out. Also, saying ’end of discussion’ is as ridiculous a thing to post at the end of a point as I can think of. Why don’t you just shout louder or write in all capitals?

Oh, hang on, you did when you wrote "NEXT"
Kevin Hudson
90   Posted 02/09/2009 at 21:42:45

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Hilarious that Mike, he says "end of dicussion," and 30 minues later pops up to discuss it some more !!!

Doubtless the pest will resume hostilities at 9am...
David Ellis
91   Posted 03/09/2009 at 02:37:50

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And at the final whistle it's Mike and Neil 2; Dave and Ciaran 0 (two o.g.)

Uh oh looks like some are demanding some extra time....... Dave is going to bring on his winger, Joseph Yobo.
Dave Wilson
92   Posted 03/09/2009 at 07:48:17

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HA Ha
So now a center forward is not a striker ?
You really dont understand the game do you Mike ?
stop subscribing to Shoot magazine mate, its confusing you. A wide player is a winger, a Center forward is a striker, a central defender is a center half and a keeper is still a Goalie call them what you want but it doesnt change their function.
No offence but I think I’ll stick to debating with people who actually understand the gamel

David Ellis
It was actually Mike who mentioned Yobo out wide first.
Many Evertonians would prefer the arse end of a pantomime horse to Ossie - you dont even have to leave this site to know that - so trust me they would have Yobo out there like a shot if it would get rid of Ossie.
Because Mike - and you -were unaware of the fact, dosnt make it any less of a fact
If we’re keeping scores mate your 1-0 down . . and your playing with yourself.
Dave Wilson
93   Posted 03/09/2009 at 08:12:53

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let me refrase that, your 1-0 down without an opponent
David Ellis
94   Posted 03/09/2009 at 08:28:19

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Dave Wilson
Lets call it a draw and move on!
Ciarán McGlone
95   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:02:56

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"Knowledgeable," IS my call if I provide you with facts you overlook,and won’t consider; it certainly isn’t yours to make.. "
----------------------

I didn’t say it was mine to make. I said it wasn’t yours to make.
Ciarán McGlone
96   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:03:35

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"I am "recovering," from your refusal to repudiate my previous demolition of you."
-------------------

Yes, your complete contradiction of yourself over the Lescott saga was most enlightening. By the way — your need to slip in unecessary words is becoming quite embarassing.

’Conspicuously pleonastic tangent’

Dear god.
Ciarán McGlone
97   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:06:28

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’Take your own advice brother! And while you’re at it don’t get touchy about the word idiot when you’ve used ridiculous, daft and the like- take what you’re dishing out.’
-------------------------

I would’ve thought the difference between attacking an argument getting personal would’ve been obvious.

Obviously not.
Ciarán McGlone
98   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:09:51

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’Doubtless the pest will resume hostilities at 9am... ’
-------------------

Ah Kev, I’m disappointed.

Surely you could’ve put that entire sentence through a thesaurus.

It should be end of discussion whenever a fact is offered. Some people fail to accept facts.

But then again...some people are so arrogant they also declare themselves the winner......er.....then come back to argue some more..deja vu?
Dave Wilson
99   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:12:35

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Ciaran, You're out of order, In his recent article about penalties, this wise old sage alerted us to the cheating that has "recently" crept into the game.
A shrewd shrewd observation... in any language, show a bit of respect, please.
Ciarán McGlone
100   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:52:07

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I couldn’t even read that one...was like a Woody Allen short story.
Kevin Hudson
101   Posted 03/09/2009 at 10:44:18

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Hooray for the Tag-Team!! Morning gents..

Wide midfielders & wingers ARE pleonastic concepts fellas, regardless of style. Have a good day!!
Ciarán McGlone
102   Posted 03/09/2009 at 10:51:48

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I knew that wit was in there somewhere Kevin...
Mike Allison
103   Posted 03/09/2009 at 11:34:36

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Yes Dave Wilson, a centre forward can be distinguished from a striker. You seem to be hung up on the language and terms used but I’m afraid there are plenty of people who understand the game pretty well who make distinctions between players who ostensibly play the same ’position’ but who actually perform different roles.

I’ll try to explain this one for you, although when I’ve done this for the other positions you’ve ignored it but never mind.

A ’centre forward’ tends to be a big strong physical presence, used as a ’target man’ and expected to win headers and hold up the ball in order to give his midfielders time to join the attack, think Duncan Ferguson or Mark Hughes. A striker tends to be smaller, quicker and looks to run round the back of the defence onto through balls, think Jermaine Defoe or Michael Owen. Again, players don’t necessarily fit precisely into these categories, they’re just archetypes that many football people find useful when discussing football players and their uses within a tactical set-up.

Do you honestly see my ability to make these distinctions as a failure to understand football? Because it seems like its you that isn’t understanding things at the moment.

Also, I mentioned Yobo out wide because you claimed that where managers ask players to play has nothing to do with their abilities, when it clearly does.

And Ciaran, no not really, the way you attack an argument is usually unnecessarily personal. To describe someone’s perfectly reasonable argument as ’ridiculous’ or ’plain daft’ has pretty strong implications about the person making the argument. Its not that a big a step from there for someone to actually say you’re an idiot. It just seems bizarre that of all the people on here you’re the one that gets precious about an innocuous little word like that.
Ciarán McGlone
104   Posted 03/09/2009 at 12:07:39

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Mike,

It’s strange that you can’t see the difference between calling a person an ’idiot’ and labelling an argument as ’ridiculous’...yet you can see the distinction between a winger and a wide player - where none exists.
Mike Allison
105   Posted 03/09/2009 at 12:30:47

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I can see the difference Ciaran. I think you’ll find, if you read my post, that I say its ’not that big a step’ from one to the other.

I also make a distinction between a winger and wide midfielder, which does exist, even if only in the minds of the people who think it exists. I’ll spare you the philosophy lesson, but that’s enough of an existence for anything I’m afraid, including the terms themselves. What we’d need to do is find out how many people accept and understand the distinction, I already know there’s at least three on this thread, and my experience of watching football and listening to people talk about it for 20-odd years leads me to accept that there are plenty of people out there who accept and understand it. If you don’t want to use it or recognise then don’t, but you simply cannot, logically, tell anyone that it doesn’t exist. Its a subjective construct used as a tool of communication between people who understand it. That IS an existence.

(Phew, nearly slipped into a philosophy lesson there...)

Anyway, I’m off to bang my head against a brick wall to see how it reacts.
Dave Wilson
106   Posted 03/09/2009 at 12:41:49

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Sorry Mike, I like a debate, but I like the guy I’m debating with to have half an idea what he’s talking about.

I’ve been involved in the game for nearly 50 years as a player, manager and fan and trust me there are no circumstances where a manager would say to a player "I’m switching you from center forward to striker today". I’m actually pissing myself at the thought of a strikers face. Imagine saying that to Andy Cole ?

I wonder what Pienaar would say if Moyes pulls him to one side and say "Listen Stevie, I’m moving you from playing wide left to to the left wing?"

Sorry mate I can no longer take your argument seriously. Good luck at the wall... Just pull your head back and head-butt it, nothing complicated.
Ciarán McGlone
107   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:12:31

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"I can see the difference Ciaran. I think you’ll find, if you read my post, that I say its ’not that big a step’ from one to the other.."

----------------------

Not that big a step? How wonderfully abstract! Much like your regression to solipsism.

If could find you three people who think the world is flat - would you consider that a priori proof of the argument?

Behave.
Mike Allison
108   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:14:47

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"I’m switching you from center forward to striker today" One for Ciaran here, that’s called a Straw Man - setting up your opponents argument in a deliberately weak version so that you can defeat it.

I’m sure no-one does say that, whether a player plays the ’centre forward’ role or the ’striker’ role would usually depend on the abilities (and often in that case, body shape) they already have.

Let me ask you this; do you think a manager might ask a player in one game to offer a target, look to win headers and hold the ball up with his back to goal, and then on another day (say if he had a big bloke alongside him who was good at doing all that) say to him, don’t worry about competing for the first ball or offering a target, look to get in behind the defence and run onto through balls or read the flicks from the big man?

Or to Steven Pienaar (pretty sure I’ve already said this one actually...

There, copied and pasted from earlier in the thread:

"At the start of a tight game, Harry Redknapp might tell Lennon to tuck inside, stay close to his central midfielder and not let the opposing full back go past him, also not to take risks with the ball and look to maintain possession. If Tottenham go behind, or are at home and want to press for the win, he might tell Lennon to pull right out wide and offer an outlet, not worry about the opposing full back going past as that’ll leave Lennon himself unmarked if the LB risks it, and to run at pace with the ball when he gets it, look to take a man on and get the ball in the box. This is the same player, in what you’re calling the same position/role, doing totally different things"


Are you telling me managers don’t do that?

I reckon they do, and you might not like to use the words ’striker’ and ’centre forward’ or ’winger’ and ’wide midfielder’ to refer to these differences, but I, and many others, find them a convenient shorthand. As I’ve said a number of times, you may not like the fact that other people have specific terms to make these distinctions (although I can’t for the life of me think why you care) but people do, and when they talk about and analyse football matches, from time to time they see it as useful to make the distinction when making a point.

I don’t understand your problem with it, or why you’re so convinced I don’t understand football and can’t be taken seriously.
Ciarán McGlone
109   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:34:48

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"I’m switching you from center forward to striker today" One for Ciaran here, that’s called a Straw Man - setting up your opponents argument in a deliberately weak version so that you can defeat it."
-------------------------

If you read the argument from the top Mike - it’s simply one of terminology versus actuality...Not a discussion of differing talents, attributes or skills of players - it’s a discussion about the redundancy of such terminology whenever it comes to a manager telling a player which position he will be playing on the pitch.

Neil and your positions are simply pedantry. We play with wide players/wingers - whether the players employed in those positions are actually wingers or have the necessary skills that a winger requires or approach that role in a myriad of different ways - is irrelevant.

That’s the point being made...We play with wingers who’s natural position is not winger.
Dave Wilson
110   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:27:31

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Mike

Dont ever try football management, half the players heads would be wrecked befroe you finished your team talk . . .the other half would be in a coma
Mike Allison
111   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:40:31

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"If could find you three people who think the world is flat - would you consider that a priori proof of the argument?

Behave."

Oh dear. The flatness of the world, or otherwise, is a totally different type of thing to the subjectively constructed concepts we’re talking about here. Have you missed that point on purpose because you like an argument so much? We can use empirical evidence to discover whether or not the world is flat, it is an a posteriori concept. Defining terms in football is something that is entirely created by us, the users of language. The meanings and ’existence’ of certain terms are a priori, and people’s uses of them and acceptance of those meanings IS a priori proof. You’ve got to admit, you either did that on purpose or you’re an idiot, which is it?

The difference between a ’striker’ and a ’centre forward’ or a ’winger’ and a ’wide midfielder’ is as real as the terms themselves. I might as well tell you there’s no such thing as a striker, that’s equivalent to the argument that you’re making. "You can’t say striker, he’s the guy-who-stands-nearest-to-the-opposition-goal-and-tries-to-score-goals." We agree to use ’striker’ as a shorthand for that, that’s what words are.

The only problem here seems to be that many of us agree to use a distinction that you and Dave don’t like and seem keen not to let us use. Again, I can’t for the life of me think why. Instead of ’wide midfielder’ you and Dave can say winger-who-stays-tucked-inside-and-is-more-suited-to-passing-than-dribbling-often-because-he-lacks-pace if you like. I reckon the rest of us will stick with ’wide midfielder’.
Ciarán McGlone
112   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:57:59

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Mike, Missing the point I see again... You cannot use numbers to satisfy your position as the correct one.

The fact that you are facing a contrary argument negates your referal to the ’a priori’ argument.
Dave Wilson
113   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:11:46

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Lol Mike

You are the Roy Cropper of Toffeeweb, but you have really made me smile today, you are tenacious, you make Neil Pierce look like a quitter - that’ll come back to haunt me

Go on, make my day, admit all your players are deaf
Kevin Hudson
114   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:04:37

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Wrong Dave, my article's complaint was about the frequency of which "soft," penalties are awarded nowadays. I didn’t claim that cheating was a modern phenomenon, I simply bemoaned cheating, period. Presumably with your, ahem "managerial" experience this annoys you too... Oh hang on a minute yes, apparently it does! It "sickens" you according to your reponse to my article!! Arguing for argument's sake.

Now to the other one: "Thesaurus," Ciaran?? I looked up "dichotomy" "pedantry" and "solipsism" and guess what I found?

"Hypocrisy" — Done you again! NEXT?
Ciarán McGlone
115   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:28:36

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Kevin,

You should apply for 2012....you could just jump up onto the podium and declare yourself the winner in every event.

I use words as required...I don’t squeeze as many into one sentence as I can...
Dave Wilson
116   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:21:56

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Ciaráns Stalker

Sorry son I have no time for obnoxious little brats who have no contribution to make to the debate.
Run along now theres a good lad

Kevin Hudson
117   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:31:53

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Bronze medal Ciaran.. ( just for trying )

" I use words as required,"----If that were the case then,you would have referred to Mike as simply a "know-it-all," rather than calling him solipsistic.. Come now..."Yer can’t kid a kidda !!!! "

That dumbed-down enough ??
Kevin Hudson
118   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:49:45

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Ciaran’s Boyfriend,

Go back and find that "yer man," came after me in this thread. Not t’other way round ! Apologies if I touched a nerve there Dave,but know that you TOO also came after me with the equally unneccesary contribution: "wise old sage."

What did you expect--flowers and chocolates ?? You both need a serious half-time teamtalk. Do the honours,"Gaffer...."
Dave Wilson
119   Posted 03/09/2009 at 15:19:14

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See your stalker's still here Ciaran, it's a bit worrying how he hardly ever talks about Everton — it being an Everton site like -
But every time you post he’s on like a shot.

an unhealthy fixation he has with you there fella . . .very unhealthy
Mike Allison
120   Posted 03/09/2009 at 15:27:11

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That’ll do me, I think you guys’ responses speak for themselves.

Ciaran, you’d have to have a point for me to miss it. I don’t see where I’m using numbers to be the ’correct one’. Actually, on that, for me an argument isn’t a competition, and there is no winner. I think that’s where at least two of you are going wrong.

I’ve said everything I could possibly say on this thread already, I’ve already had to repeat myself.
Ciarán McGlone
121   Posted 03/09/2009 at 15:42:30

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" I use words as required,"----If that were the case then,you would have referred to Mike as simply a "know-it-all," rather than calling him solipsistic.. Come now..."Yer can’t kid a kidda !!!! "
--------------------

Because I wasn’t accusing him of being a know-it-all...I was refering to the specific philosophical theory HE was using...
Ciarán McGlone
122   Posted 03/09/2009 at 15:43:50

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Mike, So if you think there’s no winner in this debate why wait till now before stating it? Curious...
Michael Kenrick
123   Posted 03/09/2009 at 15:58:02

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Okay, children. Enough already.

No more of this stupid personal point-scoring please. Everton topics ONLY!

Thread closed.

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