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FAN ARTICLES

The Team to Take Us to 4th?

By Fran Mitchell :  01/09/2009 :  Comments (75) :
The transfer window has finally came to its underwhelming conclusion. A left-sided midfielder and two defenders are the fruits of 3 months of tough negotiating. This has undoubtedly improved our team. Heitinga, we would assume, will play right-back and Bilyaletdinov will play on the wing, allowing for Pienaar or Arteta to play on the right.

But we could have improved much more. Heitinga is not exactly Glenn Johnson and ain't gonna provide much attacking guile down the right-hand side. Ideally he would have been signed as the long-term Lescott replacement.

I know nothing of Bily, and it is not guaranteed he will adapt. But I remain positive and think he will be an impressive signing. Distin is Distin, reliable and adequate replacement of Lescott.

< Rather than discuss who we should have signed — that is meaningless, pointless and been said a million times before... What is our best team, and can it take us to 4th place in the league? Defence picks itself: Baines, Heitinga, Yobo and Distin (with Jags to return it will depend on who's in form).

Midfield... now we have to think, its basically the same but with Bily. Bily will thus have a lot of pressure on his shoulders. Personally I think there are 3 options: the tried and tested if not boring 4-4-1-1, then there is the option of 4-4-2 and then the modern 4-3-3. What I think is a great relief is that we have the capability to play all 3 formations, unlike 3 years ago when it was 4-4-1-1 or nothing.

4-4-1-1 would see Neville and Rodders/Cahill/Fellaini in the middle, with Arteta, Bily and Pienaar to battle it out for 2 positions out wide. With Cahill or Fellaini playing behind one of Jo/Yak/Saha. This is the most undesirable of all the options in my opinion, and would see the continuation of our current style of football.

4-4-2, would give our strikers much more support, Saha and Yakubu could become a deadly partnership. Personally, this is the best option, with a midfield of Fellaini and Rodwell with one of the 3 wide players on the bench. This would see a much improved style of football, and competition for places, keeping players on their toes. However, Neville will demand a place in the team, but I think he just may lose out to Rodders long-term. But Rodders will not be able to play 40 games this season.

So Neville/Rodwell and Fellaini, with Arteta, Pienaar and Bily battling for the wide spots. Another option would be Neville/Rodwell with all of Bily, Arteta and Pienaar offering options of switching positions between them during the game, but I do feel Fellaini will grow to be a key player in the team, so long as he is played central midfield and not treated like a 6'-4" centre-forward.

The other option is the modern 4-3-3, this would see Neville/Rodwell, Fellaini and Arteta with Bily and Pienaar playing as wide forwards. This formation also has its merits, and thus allows us to play all of our best midfielders, but against the big teams could see the striker becoming isolated and it soon reverts to being 4-4-1-1.

In these notes I have not included Cahill; it is my prediction that he will become more of a impact sub as the team progresses. This I feel could be an excellent option. Cahill is generally at his best when the opposition defence is tired and they do not pick up his runs. Cahill could be the super-sub that we require in many a game.

So, for me, the team to take us 4th:

Howard
Heitinga, Baines, Jagielka (when fit), Distin/Yobo
Arteta, Bily/Pienaar, Fellaini, Rodwell
Yakubu, Saha/Jo

Subs: Nash, Hibbert, Distin/Yobo, Osman, Cahill, Bily/Pienaar, Saha/Jo

That to me is a strong line up, both on the bench and starting. Plus having Anichebe, Vaughan, Baxter, Wallace, Coleman, Agard, Peterlin in the reserves.

4th... well that's a different issue, but it is possible.

Reader Comments

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Dennis Stevens
1   Posted 01/09/2009 at 20:54:00

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All speculation, of course, but I wonder whether Moyes may consider using Heitinga as a defensive midfielder & so free Neville to revert to the right-back slot. As always, Moyes does like to buy players who give him options as regards playing them in a variety of positions & a variety of formations.
Kunal Desai
2   Posted 01/09/2009 at 20:54:33

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I think the squad as it now stands is at best going to challenge 6th place now. In my opinion, I think we’ll finish around 7th or 8th. I don’t feel the squad has been bolstered enough to cope with Cup competitions/Europe and the League. We needed another quality defensive midfielder along with perhaps another 2 or 3 squad players (loanees/Championship) players.

Sorry you can forget 4th there are other teams strong enough, with great depth and quality to challenge the current top 4. I feel Moyes is never going to get another opportunity to have a crack at the top 4 again because Blue Bill can’t give him the necessary funds to push us on. The poor bloke just about got all the Lescott money. So where has any additional funding gone??

Oh sorry, I forgot, Kenwright was on the phone for the last 40 mins before the deadline, surpassed telling SSN he was busy tying up other deals......hahaha another smokescreen. He sure is an entertainer, that Kenwright.

Dick Anderson
3   Posted 01/09/2009 at 21:25:19

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It makes me laugh that you have both Diniyar Bilyaletdinov and Johnny Heitinga in the team to take Everton 4th. The truth is we have absolutely no idea how Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga will adapt to the Premier League. They could be another Per Kroldrup and Andy van der Meyde for all we know.

Let's hope both players adapt quickly and become good players but I’ll reserve judgement until I see them play a few times.
Martin Cutler
4   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:07:40

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I honestly don’t think this team (with the new additions) will break us into the top four....hopefully it will be good enough to finish 5th, however, with City and Spurs improving dramatically I’m not so sure.

If we’d have added Defour that would changed things quite a bit.

Any formation we have must not rely on Osman or Hibbert ... they both have their moments but we need to be consistently better so need more consistent performances from every player.
Andy Burke
5   Posted 01/09/2009 at 21:49:20

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Good topic to take my mine off the bloody transfer window Fran. I am still fuming. I accept that we have more than likely improved our squad but we needed more players.

Anyway, in response to your post, I can never ever see Moyes playing 4-3-3 for long enough to bother commenting on that one.

However, for 4-4-2 and 4-5-1, defence would be Hibbert (I think Heitinga will not be good enough), Jags (of course), Distin and Baines. Sorry Yobo, but Distin is left footed and nobody could replace Jags for me.

Arteta always has to be first choice for the centre of Midfield. Although he does a great job for us on the wing, too long has he been wasted out there.

Bily on the left (assuming he takes to the Premier league as quickly as Arshavin — how good is he?!)

Pienaar on the right (I love Pienaar), then probably Neville holding midfield (joy) with the hope that Rodwell eventually learns to tackle consistetnly (I love Rodwell but I can’t agree one bit when people say he is the new Ferdinand).

The front can then be between the Yak, Jo ( who for me was great against a very Physical Wigan and I think will show more this season), Saha, Cahill and Fellaini — You takes your pick there depending on how you want to play it 4-4-2 or 4-5-1.

Thanks for helping to take my mind off the summer.
Steven Jones
6   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:11:09

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Fran - great article....

The options and quality much higher and because of a fit Saha and a pre-seasoned Jo with the Yak back the striking dept is much better than last year....
Also the kids growing up gives us better quality ... Rodders enough said.
Gosling et al are a better bet IMHO than the squad filling loans like Castillo... and promise to create more value for us in the transfer market with time on their side.

Dick — take your point on uncdertain bedding but i do feel that Moyes has gone for two proven international for two top class sides in Holland and Russia — both have captains heritage and both have been named player of the year in their respective countries.

Leadership and strong mental attitude and that goes for Distin whose presence and organisation and mouthing will surpass Lescott's.

So, all in all, not quite what we wanted or the management team worked towards today but much better than last year's squad.

With money to go and relationships and targets warmed up there should be 1 or 2 in January too.
Stian Skaar
7   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:22:33

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Steven Jones — spot on.

"I do feel that Moyes has gone for two proven international for two top class sides in Holland and Russia — both have captains heritage and both have been named player of the year in their respective countries.

Leadership and strong mental attitude and that goes for Distin whose presence and organisation and mouthing will surpass Lescotts."
Iain Love
8   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:15:11

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FFS we have just got 3 first team players and some for the future. Sure I would have preferred more and better quality but I would also like a lot of things I can't afford.

Anyway our main problem was the right and hopefully that is sorted, Lescott replaced with an equal quality centre back, all we need now is our injured players back and we’re sorted.

My team would be
Howard
Johnny, ,Jags, Distin, Baines
Pienaar, Rodwell, Arteta, Bily
Fellaini / Timmy
Yak
COYB

Stian Skaar
9   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:30:19

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As for formation - I’ll opt for a 4-2-3-1:

Howard
Heitinga, Yobo/Jags, Distin, Baines
Rodwell, Arteta
Pienaar, Cahill, Billy
Saha

Tony Marsh
10   Posted 01/09/2009 at 22:51:01

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Fran if you think this squad is big enough and skillful enough to grab 4th place then you are seriously deluded mate. We are already 9 points behind Spurs and already chasing Man City both of these clubs don't have to play in the Europa Cup either. Villa are hitting form and they to decided to chuck the towel in when it came to the Jokeropa Cup.

I know you mean well mate but come on, let's not play silly buggers, 8th would be a good finish this season after the terrible start we had. The squad will be burnt out by Chrimbo if we stay in the League Cup as well.

Face it Fran we have no chance of getting in to the CL berths so why fret over it?

Chris Ashton
11   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:18:17

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So all the pessimists are coming out of the woodwork now eh? The way I see the coming season now is that we have added two international players to the squad to replace two players who could not make the first team anyway. This means there are more players than there is places in the team, competition leads to players hitting top form.

I’m disappointed in Everton not signing anyone else, I even said today I didn’t think we would sign anybody. But whether or not they adapt is not the issue right now, it is that we have three quality players in the team picture now.

And for anybody saying we will not finish fourth, last time we did it we had Marcus Bent up front for us. May I ask where is he now? He was not exactly pushing the England squad. So a team with an American international, 2 England internationals, Australian, Dutch, Nigerian, French, Russian and South African players is good enough to achieve 4th.

We still have a game in hand which would leave us 6 behind City, 3 if we double them. And win that and Spurs home and away and we catch them. The season is only 3 games in and you talk as if we cannot catch teams now. We win every game and we win the league! Whether or not we will is another story, but it is possible. So lighten up, I for one am really looking forward to seeing the line-up against Fulham next week!

Julian Wait
12   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:31:24

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Basically Moyes has built a flexible squad with 2 or even 3 senior players capable of playing each position and then youngsters as a fall back / development option.

It’s as good as we could expect quality wise ... given capital available for transfer fees and revenue available for wages (and the existing wage structure that fits that revenue).

We all want to have 11 World Class players take the field each week with same on bench, but its not going to happen.

If Moyes can field his first choice team with 11 Internationals and a mix of internationals and prospects in reserve, with some "squad" and promising development players, isn’t he doing quite well under the circumstances?

Do you want to hand these three new players back and get Lescott back from City now?

I doubt anyone wants that.
Julian Wait
13   Posted 01/09/2009 at 23:36:12

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@Chris - sorry I just saw your comment. I think I said the same thing in a different way. ;-)
Fran Mitchell
14   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:12:34

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Tony: I wasn’t necesserily saying the team WILL take us to 4th. Basically my point was that, given that 4th is what all Everton fans/players/management are aiming towards what team is best suited for that battle.

What formation, tactics and players will give us a good shot?

Yes Man City have started well, but what about when they lose, will the confidence sap away, does Hughes have the ability to galvanise these stars when they have an off-day/month.

Yes we lost 2 games on the trot, but I am willing to bet that Spurs will lose 2 games on the trot at some point this season.

4th is a struggle, 5th will be a struggle, 6th and heck 7th is a battle as lots of clubs are fighting and spending to improve.

But we are fans, and to give up hope before the season has started is pathetic.

It's now September, lets forget who we didn't sign and look at the players we have. If our team plays to its potential we have a chance, I gave my opinion on Everton's best formation and line-up, but what are your opinions Tony apart from Shitty and Spurs being great?

What team should Moyes pick? Fellaini, is he a dud or the star man? Do we go with the tried and tested hoof-ball and packed midfield? Is Cahill a super-sub or just plain super? 2 strikers or 1? These are the question that me should muse for the next 9 months, not whether Banega/Defour would have been great, or whether the club dithered too much. The only board related issues that should be discussed til January at the earliest is Kirkby, anything else is irrelavant.
Timmy Mongiat
15   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:13:56

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The formation in my eyes has to be the 4-5-1, whenever if we opt for the 4-4-2 we look weak and we now have three attacking mids in Fellaini, Cahill and Bily and a 4-4-2 would be detrimental to all three’s performances/success.

Howard would obviously start in goal, Baines at left back, Yobo and Distin in the centre (Jags for yobo when he is fit) and Neville at right. Heitinga middle with Cahill. Pienaar left, Arteta right and Bily as the attacking midfielder with Aaha as the lone striker.

I would also look at Rodwell in the centre of midfield and Cahill attacking mid and a swap of positions for Heitinga/Neville. With everyone fit we also have a very impressive looking bench whichever formation we opt for. Although I think it is being assumed on here that Bilyaletdinov will play left mid, do not be surprised if he plays as an attacking mid behind the striker as he has excelled in this position for Russia.

With respect to the usual comments about our funds (Kunal and all others), I don't know how many times I have to say it on here, but we are in a recession!!!! Our debts went up considerably in the last financial year and it hasn't been easy to refinance. It should also be noted that Manchester United have recouped more than they brought, Arsenal have recouped more than they brought, and Liverpool’s net spend has been minimal.

I understand you guys are not economists, but it’s getting really frustrating to come on here everyday and see people moaning about our lack of spending. We are a business, we are affected by the economic situation, the weak pound and problems caused by our increased debts and it is not logical for us all to assume that we are going to have millions to spend during this period.

But we have improved our squad; Lescott is a big loss no doubt, but Distin is a superb replacement, Heitinga’s versatility and experience is a massive plus (although I have some concerns over his pace), Jo is a great acquisition and Bily could be fantastic for us. We also had a budget of around £8million anyway for the summer so we should have money to spend in January.

John Lloyd
16   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:39:19

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Just like to say that when fit Arteta should be returned to central midfield and nowhere else. Whilst he is in that position we look like a side that can actually play football. Aston Villa in the FA Cup last season was an absolute masterclass by Mikel.

I know he ’can’ do a job down either flank down to his talent as a player but with him in a central role he suddenly makes the whole team seem more balanced and comfortable in possesion.

Fran Mitchell
17   Posted 02/09/2009 at 00:42:36

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Arteta is also an issue. While in the middle last season he looked absolutely brilliant. However I feel for the best team out wide in a 4-4-2 is required.

However he wont play as a traditional winger, and we dont necesserily need him to.

Yakubu, Saha and Jo are all player who prefer to have the ball played to their feet, rather than constant crosses in the box. Fact is we dont have wuick wingers, we wont be able to break quickly and turn defence into attack in 2 passes and 3 seconds. But Arteta can still move around, move central and create from the right side. Fellaini in the middle, with other technically gifted players like Rodwell, Bily, Pienaar and Arteta around him will see a great improvement.

A midfield like this I believe have the potential to be pleasing on the eye too.

Fact is Arteta is a great player, and will play brilliantly wherever he plays. Zidane was a central midfielder who excelled playing on the left side of midfield. It actually gave him more space and time to create than in a packed midfield. Arteta is our Zidane.
Stian Skaar
18   Posted 01/09/2009 at 19:33:09

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In my opinion, this has been a good transfer window for Everton. Lescott is the only one of consequence to leave Goodison — and he really did have to leave; two proven internationals and one proven Premier League player coming in.

The players coming in are all leaders, having had captain duties before. Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga play for two of the best national teams in the world, even though only Heitinga looks a regular now. Billy has tough competition from Zhirkov of Chelsea.

I think we now have a good squad and good cover in all outfield positions:

Right back: Heitinga will probably replace Hibbert, but Phil Neville is another alternative.

Central defence: Yobo and Distin now, Distin a left footer. Jags should have a place when injury free, Heitinga was earlier mainly a central defender. Neville did the job against Sigma (last option). Rodwell? Should stay in midfield.

Left back: Baines did well against Wigan. Distin can also play left back.

Defensive central midfielders: Neville, Rodwell, Heitinga, Cahill (last option).

Attacking central midfielders: Arteta, Cahill, Bily, Fellaini, Osman.

Right/left midfield: Pienaar, Bily, Osman. Gosling?

Strikers: Saha, Jo, Yak, Anichebe, Vaughan.

Others youngsters: Duffy, Baxter, Agard, Wallace.

A couple of additions in the winter window, and not another injury hell like last season, and we should challenge teams like City, Spurs and Villa for 5th.

Stewart Littler
19   Posted 02/09/2009 at 03:15:28

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Just to point out, although I’m sure it’s not the first time, at this stage last season, we had 3 points and were out of Europe. We had conceded 7 goals in the league and scored 3.

Fast forward 12 months and we’ve also got 3 points, having conceded 8 and scored 3. Pretty similar there. We’re not out of Europe. And I think even the most negative of Evertonians would agree we have a stronger squad, unless you count Lescott, Jacobsen, Valente, Castillo and Van der Meyde as better than Heitinga, Distin, Bilyaletdinov and Jo?

So why is the season being written off already? I can understand some of the disappointment - I share it with regards to us only spending the Lescott money, leaving it so late, etc, etc. But we’ve played 3 GAMES!!! Spurs had 2 points after 8 last season and still finished in the top half. Hell, we only had 8, and we’ll have more than that after Blackburn at home.

But then, I suppose there’s always gonna be some people who go the match hoping to get beat so it will prove them right...

My team for Fulham:
Howard
Hibbert Yobo Distin Neville
Pienaar Rodwell Fellaini Bilyaletdinov
Jo Saha

Subs: Nash, Heitinga, Baines, Osman, Cahill, Jo, Yakubu.
David Ellis
20   Posted 02/09/2009 at 04:32:30

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Fran, Apologies in advance — my posts tend to be long. I think there is useful discussion to be had here about formations. I think the 3 line way of looking at teams is now an oversimplification (i.e. 4-5-1; 4-4-2 etc).

It is easier to discuss in more details if we use the 5 line view. There are several types of 4-5-1 that are now available to us - it really depends on the number of truely defensive midfielders we play with.

A couple of years ago we had Carsley in front of the back four, and Cahill playing just off the striker and Osman as centre midfield with Arteta and Piennaar on the flanks. This is a formation that is actually very attacking. This was a 4-1-3-1-1.

With Carsley gone we tried to have two defensive central midfielders, often Neville with one of Rodwell, Jags or Fellaini or Castillo. It did n’t really work at all. This was a 4-2-2-1-1. It was defensive, boring and awful, and the personnel were not suited to their allotted tasks — leading to hoofball and constant loss of possession.

Arteta then came into the centre of the park and played further forward than Neville. Essentially playing the role Osman had the previous season. The 4-1-3-1-1 was back - anad even with midfielders filling in as the single forward it worked and we climbed up the table.

Cahill to his great credit was able to take on Arteta’s role after Arteta’s injury. He does not have the skills to do it half as well but he prevented us from playing too much hoof ball and we still climbed the table.

Now we have options. The arrival of Bily on one of the flanks will allow Osman to return to his centre midfield role of two years ago, as cover for Arteta. Heitinga could take on the Carsley role instead of Neville (with Neville moving to right back) — Heitinga could go to right back to replace HIbbert. This would be a more creative version of the 4-1-3-1-1 than we can currently play because OSman is more creative than Cahill in that position.

Alternatively we could go use a more defensive 4-2-2-1-1 with the two defensive midfielders being two of Rodwell, Neville and Heitinga — with Pienaar and Bily out wide and Cahill or Fellaini playing off the striker. Assuming that Heitinger has better ball skills than Neville a 4-2-2-1-1 with him and Rodwell as the defensive midfield pairing would work better than Rodwell and Neville — again less hoofball and better retention of possession.

Personally I prefer the 4-1-3-1-1 with just one holding midfielder — sadly this where Banega would have fitted in — but we can use Heitinga, Neville, Rodwell or Arteta in this role depending on how expansive we want to be.

Playing with two out and out strikers is for me a strategy in the last quarter of a game when there is more space. A late arriving midfielder in the various versons of 4-5-1 is more effective in the modern game than a second dedicated striker.
Jamie Crowley
21   Posted 02/09/2009 at 04:56:44

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Does anyone out there think we should play a 4-3-2-1? With the depth of squad and what we currently have player-wise, I think we could really excel in this formation.

Cahill, Jo, and Fell rotating in the top 2 forward positions with Yak and Saha up front.... Arteta healthy distributing wide and up the middle playing in the CM position.... Bily, Pienaar wide... 5 to 6 solid options across the back line....

I defer to those who so far out-weigh me tactically. What do you think of this formation for us?
Kirk McArdle
22   Posted 02/09/2009 at 05:41:55

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Howard
Neville - Yobo (Jags) - Distin - Baines
Arteta - Heitinga
Pienaar - Fellaini - Bily
Yakubu

Nash, Yobo, Hibbert, Gosling, Osman, Cahill, Jo

My only problem with this is hoofball to Fellaini. But solid at the back, creativity and strength in def mid, pace on the wings and fingers crossed Yak back to his deadly best. With Fellaini dropping back to cover and supporting Yak so he is not isolated. For me Yak struggles in the lone striker role but Fellaini then becomes the box -2- box midfielder he was bought as?
Howard Don
23   Posted 02/09/2009 at 07:40:45

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Interesting article Fran. However I’m not keen on your tendancy to shove Arteta out wide again. For me a fit, in form Mikel goes centre mid every time, then you decide where everyone else plays.
David Ellis
24   Posted 02/09/2009 at 07:41:25

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Jamie
Your 4-3-2-1 might find it difficult to (a) avoid getting overrun in midfield or (b) avoid being very narrow in forward positions.

The wide players (Pienaar and Bily) would need to go deep to help Arteta control midfield. This would mean we would be very narrow when attacking. If the wide players play in an advanced position we would get swamped in midfield.

I do like the idea of Arteta sitting in front of the back four in the Carsley role but we need another mobile central midfielder who can distirbute to play in front of him — and this is neither Cahill or Fellaini.
Ciarán McGlone
25   Posted 02/09/2009 at 08:52:34

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It’s interesting that there’s a lot of people happy at yesterday's farce...

For a team that ’allegedly’ has ambitions of challenging for fourth... we are now as far away as ever... simply because we have not addressed the problem areas and Man City... and those other perenial under-achievers Spurs — have leap-frogged us...

We started the transfer window needing a midfield playmaker and a a right winger — as well as cover for centre-half. After Lescott left we also needed a quality centre-half.

So how have we fared? We’ve brought in an ageing centre-half, a utility defender (who many people are praising but have clearly never seen) and a left footed attacking midfielder.

So, without moving players around and playing them out of position we’ve actually ticked one of those boxes and signed cover at centre-half (and before the numbskulls start — Heitinga is a defensive utility player who WILL BE COVER for the centre-half)...

So we’ve spent less than we brought in from the £24mill of Lescott money — and significantly less if you consider our legendary way of structuring deals.

I’m happy that the players we’ve secured actually improve the team/squad (apart from Distin who is not better than Lescott)... But I’m far from happy with the extent of the improvement, because the two major positions were not directly addressed.

Come Fulham we will still have Neville and Cahill in centre midfield — and I have no doubt that Osman will also still play on the right.

Yet again, the board at Everton Football Club have reneged on their duty of providing funds for Moyes... and in that very action show not only their lack of ambition but their lack of ability to be in control of this club.

Fourth spot? My fuckin arse.

Shaun Brennan
26   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:24:01

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I’m sorry, we sign three new players. Two of whom I suspect you have no idea about and you expect us to take the 4th spot? If only it was so easy.

It simply won’t happen. Again a bit of business late in the transfer window. The season began early august whilst we started last sunday? are we some sort of handicap and give the other teams a headstart? Maybe if we built on our finishes of previous seasons. But I don’t even think we built on the finish we had last season.

Kirk McArdle
27   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:26:06

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Ciaran, for as much as I said that I would love to see the players I mentioned, if the club were to place even more pressure on the growing debt then there would be only one outcome. And that would be an even bigger firesale than just having to sell Rooney one season and Lescott 3 years later. We have no other sources of revenue. Corporate sponsorship at the club is far from the best, and we all know about looking for 24/7 investment.

Look at Pompey. Only have funds to buy a championship striker in Tommy Smith and loaned out Nugent (who was bought for £7M and Moyes was widely critisised at the time for not buying him!!!). The players that they have been forced to sell to keep the club going reads like an endless list.

Oh yeah didn’t they win the FA Cup a couple of years back? If that kind of success leads to a team that seems to be destined to be relegated this season then you can keep a cup run to glory. Keep the faith Ciaran. The times, they are a changin’!!!!!

Stian Skaar
28   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:35:04

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Ciarán - "as far away as ever" and "not adressed problem areas" is both being too negative and factually wrong.

"We started the transfer window needing a midfield playmaker and a right winger — as well as cover for centre half. After Lescott left we also needed a quality centre half."


Distin is Lescott replacement.
Heitinga is centre half cover.
Bily is left winger, but Pienaar can be moved to the right.

You also forget right back as a position that needed adressing. Heitinga has played as a right back for both Netherlands and Atletico Madrid the last year. That is: right back for maybe the best national team in the world at the moment, and right back for one of the best teams in Spain. For those of you who claim us positive souls haven’t even seen the new boys play — I’ve seen Heitinga in three matches in the last few months, and he’s been good quality in important matches. (Netherlands v Norway, Atletico v Panathinaikos (qualifiers Champions League).

And why does nobody of the downbeat brigade mention this when you moan abot the signings:

1. They’re fluent English speakers, making it both easier to fit into the team tactically and socially.
2. They’re experienced players.
3. They all have captain experience, and have been leaders in previous clubs.

These are key elements, and possibly elements that for example Ever Banega didn’t offer.
Stian Skaar
29   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:48:04

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Kirk - I agree wholeheartedly, and some of the moaners definitely should wake up to reality, instead of imagining we’re Mersey millionaires at this point in the club’s history.

And as for a sheik buying the club - I prefer local ownership most days. It’s not all about the money - identity and tradition is also an element.

4-3-2-1:
I think it’s not the best way of playing. With the progress of Rodwell botth offensively and defensively, I think he should partner Arteta in central midfield. That offers us both hustling, tackling and covering, as well as goals from distance and assists.

Cahill fits well as the withdrawn striker.
Ciarán McGlone
30   Posted 02/09/2009 at 09:57:03

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’Ciaran, for as much as I said that I would love to see the players I mentioned, if the club were to place even more pressure on the growing debt then there would be only one outcome. And that would be an even bigger firesale than just having to sell Rooney one season and lescott 3 years later’
-----------------------------

So where did the money from bids made before the Lescott sale go to? And where’s the rest of the Lescott money? But I would bet top dollar we’ve put no more than £10 mill down for the players we’ve brought in.

Has it just vanished? Did it exist? Derren Brown? Mass hullucination?

This is simple economics... the team doing well CREATES REVENUE!
Stian Skaar
31   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:00:06

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In a 4-2-3-1 formation, of course.

And Cahill fits as withdrawn striker because he offers goals and he offers great defense.
Ciarán McGlone
32   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:00:19

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They’re English speakers? SO is half the bloody planet! Talk about scarping the bottom of the barrel.

And by the way...maybe you misunderstood my post - although thats strange because it was quite clear..I am NOT complainign about the players brought in..I am complaining about the players who we clearly needed as a priority but WERE NOT brought in.

Oh and by the way...Do you think Moyes is happy that he’s hasn’t achieved his targets?

And if he’s not happy - why should I be happy?
Stian Skaar
33   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:07:59

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Ciarán - I think you’re only happy when you have something to moan about.
Ciarán McGlone
34   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:13:55

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Stian,

I think that kind of response is a shortcut past thinking.
Stian Skaar
35   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:12:27

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And Ciarán - I think Arteta fits the bill as a playmaker, with Rodwell and Bily as possible covers.

In other words — to make it perfectly clear — I think Moyes has succeeded in strengthening all positions in need of strenghtening. Of course it would have been even better to have signed one or two more, but is the cup half-full or half-empty?
Ciarán McGlone
36   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:26:42

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Either you think he what was required..or you don’t - make your mind up!

Moyes certainly doesn’t think he did what was required.
Kirk McArdle
37   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:20:11

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"So where did the money from bids made before the Lescott sale go to? And where’s the rest of the Lescott money? But would I bet top dollar we’ve put no more than £10 mill down for the players we’ve brought in..."

Ciaran
I will agree we seem to be a few million down on the sums we would have received since the end of last season.
1. SKY money for this years t.v.
2. 5th place should equate to £12.5M.
3. £19M from Lescott less Wolves sell-on clause.
4. £2-2.5M from FA Cup run.

Do you know what the down payments for the Delph and Naughton/Walker deals was because we all know the full amount was not going to be paid? Same as the 3 players we have brought in will be staggered deals.

I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. What I am saying which I am sure you will agree with me (I know you are not stupid. From your posts I surmise you are an intelligent person) is that it is better to have money left over to service interest payments instead of blowing the lot we have got on players that Moyes doesn’t really want. The players he knows that will take us to the next level are unreachable in terms of both transfer fees and wage costs.

As for your last comment about a team doing well creates revenue. Look at our record for the last 4 years. What part of that is not doing well on the revenue steams available to the manager?

We are all after the same thing. A successful club. We seem to have different ideas on how to achieve that goal.

Ciarán McGlone
38   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:52:17

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"The players he knows that will take us to the next level are unreachable in terms of both transfer fees and wage costs."
-----------------

I would disagree with this... As already mentioned Moyes was wanting 4 or more players in by yesterday — so we would have to surmise that he thought there was wriggle room in wages and fees for at least two more players... Krancjar is one player that was unbelievably cheap — I have no doubt if we’d went for him before Modric got crocked we’d have got him.

As for the club doing well... for me — it is nailed on that we will go backward this season... that’s not progressive, it's regressive...

However, I hope to budhah, yahweh, the flying spaghetti monster and Joe Smith, that I am as wrong as I can be.
Stan Sheppard
39   Posted 02/09/2009 at 10:51:06

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If Modric hadn’t of got injured we would have probably got Kranjar. Having said that, what were we doing waiting until deadline day to bid for him in the first place? £2.5m!

Yes we have strengthened the team and I am delighted with the standard of player we have brought in.

However, take yourself 3 months back to the final whistle at the cup final. If you had been told this was how things would end up you would not have believed it. We thought there would be signings and investment, we were told we were more attractive now. Anyone who says this is how they wanted things to turn out has had their head turned and ambitions lowered by another mediocre transfer window.

I know I expected more.
Ben Howard
40   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:01:34

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Thank you David Ellis, I really enjoyed your post and love discussing formations! I agree that the formations used by modern teams cannot really be simplified to three lines.

My preferred formation is also 4-1-3-1-1, and I feel our ability to use it depends on the continued progression of Rodwell or Heitinga’s inclusion in the lone defensive midfield position.

A nice post too, Fran.
Fran Mitchell
41   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:24:38

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Yes Ciarán we could have done better in the transfer market, we are all dissapointed and angry at Bill Kenwright, but i’ve heard it all before.

Every one of your posts has been posted before on different subjects, I no longer want to discuss these subjects.

Krancjar is a Spurs player, why are we discussing him?

I want to discuss Everton players, and how THIS Everton team will fare and whats best for THIS Everton team, the REAL ACTUAL Everton team rather than the one you picture in your mind.

We have discussed our summer activity or lack of in 1 million posts already, are you not glad we can talk of something else.

What do you think is the best option for Everton in terms of style of play, achieveing our best results and reaching our potential?

I never said it will definately take us to fourth, but that is what the Club is aiming for so why give up now?

Did Man U fans think, shit we lost to Burnley, were never gonna win the league now might as well give up?

Winning menatality is required, both from players, staff and FANS.

Stop moaning about the transfer window, it's finished. In January you can talk about it all you want, but for now it's over, finished, so rather than talk about Spurs and Valencia players, why not talk about Everton for a change?
Ciarán McGlone
42   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:33:49

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Fran,

It’s the day after - suggesting we automatically switch off and forget it...is a bit optimistic.

Football fans are not programmed that way - in fact no-one is.

However, I’ll humour the initial premise of your article..


For me...

The back line remains the same - until Hibbert has a stinker - so far (contrary to those who can’t get over Hibbert’s 45 injured minutes in the cup final) the biy has acquitted himself well this season..

so a back line of
.......................Howard
Hibbert....Yobo..Distin....Baines..

Now for midfield:

Difficult call this, Players are simply going to be played out of position. Therefore we have to go with a 5 man midfield..to make up for quality in natural positions. Osman gets automatically dropped - like he should have been last season. Arteta sits in the middle in front of rodwell. Cahill gets his natural position back, and the russian leftie starts out of position as left winger. If we’d bought a right winger I’d have Cahill on the bench and Pienaar as attacking midfield.

So a midfield of:
..................Arteta......Rodwell
Pienaar...................................Billy
..................Cahill

Now to our position with most options..For me, if he’s fit...it’s Saha everytime. Closely followed by the Yak..If we’re trailing I’d throw on the yak and take rodwell off. I don’t rate Jo one bit..so he’d be back up at all times...

Bench:
Fellaini
Jo
Yak
Osman
Heitinga
Wallace
Gosling


Stian Skaar
43   Posted 02/09/2009 at 11:56:54

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Ciarán - I agree with your best team, with two possible changes:

1) Jagielka perhaps ahead of Yobo when back? However Yobo had a good match v. Wigan, I thought.

2) Heitinga should replace Hibbert. However Hibbert has improved offensively, and his defensive troubles can probably be blamed on Osman, at least partially.
Ciarán McGlone
44   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:01:28

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Stian...

I’m with you on Jags... completely forgot about him... Have him in for Yobo, and retain Distin on the premise that he’s a left footer.
Anthony Hawkins
45   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:16:12

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I’m with Stian:

Howard
Heitinga, Yobo/Jags, Distin, Baines
Rodwell, Arteta
Pienaar, Cahill, Bily
Saha

although Fellaini should feature in there somewhere...
Giles Larkman
46   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:14:46

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Thank you Fran for good article and everyone else for the input. A good article on football and not fucking politics.

I agree with a lot that has been said and there has been a lot of food for thought, especially about possible formations.

Probable best summed up by Julian:

"Do you want to hand these three new players back and get Lescott back from City now?

I doubt anyone wants that."

We’ve worked within x number of constraints and now we kick on with the season. Amen to that!
Andy Macrae
47   Posted 02/09/2009 at 12:52:51

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Home/ Away to Hull etc
Howard
Heitinga, Jags, Distin, Baines
Pienaar, Arteta, Neville, Bily
Saha, Yakubu

Away/ Home to top teams
Howard
Heitinga, Jags, Distin, Baines
Pienaar, Arteta, Neville, Rodwell, Bily
Saha

Arteta MUST play in centre mid. He showed last season how good he is in there & we need someone who can turn & pass the ball in centre mid.

I think 4-4-2 would be great at home, with 3 players who are comfortable on the ball giving us a more composed & creative feel on the pitch. When Man U & Chelsea come to town, 4-5-1 would have to be played though.

Away from home I feel the 4-5-1 would work better for us also, with both Rodwell & Neville protecting the back four. this still keeps our 3 composed attacking midfielders in the team, plus the class of rodwell.

I agree with the comments of Cahill being used as an impact sub. I know the games about scoring goals which Cahill is great at. But being a midfielder is more than about scoring.

Bench: Nash, Yobo, Hibbert, Cahill, Fellaini, Rodwell/Yakubu, Jo.
Mike Green
48   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:26:50

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First - Richard Sayers - come back. I nearly threw the towel in for the same reasons as you two weeks ago but have taken a chill pill and concentrate on the comments I see as valuable and ignore the rest.

Second - great article Fran becuase it’s about football and addresses the major tactical decision we have now which essentially is how we organise the midfield. And for those who are always for baying for more players more players more players cover cover cover I’d reckon that its the midfield where we have the most players and now the biggest dilemma?

Thirdly - Dennis Stevens - I too have a sneaky feeling that Heit could have been brought in for that role. Could be interesting.

Fourthly - thank you to everyone who’s put forward their interpretations on where we go from here, some great angles on the team moving forward.

Fifthly - we wont finish 4th, we’ll finish 5th.

Finally - my team for what it’s worth (assuming no injuries).

Howard
Neville / Jags / Distin / Baines
Pienaar / Arteta / Heitinger / Bily
Cahill
Saha

Thanks again for a top topic, Fran.
Suzy Whitehead
49   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:39:27

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Firstly we are not going to finish in the top four.
Secondly we are not goin gto finish in the top 5.
Thirdly we are not going to finish in the top 6.

You can accuse me of being negative but you would be wrong. The above is fact - simple as. Spurs and City will be far stronger than last year and will both finish above an Everton squad which is simply too small to complete in Europe and PL successfully.

I think the additions will prove to be very good business - Heitinga and Billy anyway.
Fran, Johnson cost three times what we paid for Heitinga who is more experienced and technically better. Johnson is good going forward but vunerable defending i feel.

It is what it is gentlemen. Try not to get unrealistically ambitious.

Suzy
Mike Green
50   Posted 02/09/2009 at 13:57:30

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Suzy - you’re right, I believe we’re in a mini league of 4 with Man City, Spurs and Villa.

I think we’ll do better than Villa.

Spurs always flatter to decieve and my only concern with them is with Droopy at the helm for once they might mean they actually achieve something this year but I think it’ll the toss of a coin where we end up compared to them. They’ll hit a bad patch and boy will it be a bad patch.

City - who knows. Given the money they should nail 5th or higher no bother but as we know money isn;t everything. They could be looking for a new manager come Xmas.

So - I think we’re 7th at worst, toss of a coin for 6th and could get 5th if things go a bit pearshaped at Eastlands.

4th? No chance.
Suzy Whitehead
51   Posted 02/09/2009 at 14:35:38

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Mike,

I hope you are right but I don’t think you will be. I can not see us finishing in the top 6 this year.

Spurs have enough depth now to control the bad patch. Three homegrown and consistent strikers will see to that. Their back up defence is the weak link. City will finish in the top 6 but will not set the world alight — I guess it depends on who Bellamy decks at training.
Mike Green
52   Posted 02/09/2009 at 14:39:14

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Ha ha - nice one Suzy - something tells me it’ll be Adebayor!

Sean Keigher
53   Posted 02/09/2009 at 14:38:28

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Good article but let’s take it step by step. If we are 4th or thereabouts at Xmas (No more than 3 or 4 points off the pace), then we will have a real chance of having a crack at 4th spot post Xmas.

Moyes will add to the squad in Jan, I reckon 2 more to come in, another defender and midfielder so I think it will be interesting if this question is put to the floor post Jan transfer window again.

Also don’t think anyone has mentioned who will drop out of the Top 4, for me my money in on Liverpool and not just cos I’m a Blue. Take Torres, Gerrard & Kuyt out of that team and they are very ordinary, not to mention the loss of Alonso and a shaky start to the season.

For the record best XI for me as 2 Sept 09 is
Howard
Baines, Distin, Yobo (Jags when back) Heitinga
Bily, Rodwell, Neville (Arteta when back), Pienaar
Cahill (Yak when back)
Saha
4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2

Subs
Nash
Hibbert
Felliani
Gosling
Jo
Osman

Oh yeah, here’s to Ossie getting another 2 against Fulham next week.
See ye in the Putney End

Mike Green
54   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:33:50

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Sean - like the team but only problem I have is dropping the captain once Arteta fit. Would be a big decision.
Ciarán McGlone
55   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:43:49

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Dropping the captain would be a big decision..and one that should be made on footballing merit.

Lets face it. Neville’s shit in midfield.


I doubt Moyes will make that call. In fact I’d almost guarantee he won’t.

Steve Pugh
56   Posted 02/09/2009 at 16:56:53

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"I think that kind of response is a shortcut past thinking. "

fantastic
Ajay Gopal
57   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:24:42

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Some nice insights on this thread - wonderful stuff (our in-house "mid-field analyser" Connor Roehrer has been missing for some time, hope everything is all right. So is Santosh Benjamin - our "TV match reviewer").

Right, my thoughts on the team as it is now:

The transfer window would have been absolutely great with just 1 more signing - Banega/Defour/some creative midfielder. But overall, for me, not bad, considering how bad it was looking last week.
I worry about injuries to Baines & Howard, because the cover we have there is absolutely non-existent.

Other than that, we now have actually 19 decent out-field players:

Forwards: Yak, Saha, Jo, Vaughan, Anichebe
Midfielders: Cahill, Fellaini, Arteta, Pienaar, Bilya, Osman, Rodwell, Gosling, Neville
Defence: Jags, Hibbert, Distin, Yobo, Heitinga, Baines

For once, it gives Moyes a lot of options and cover in times of injury. A bit "top heavy" especially considering that we tend to play most of the time with the lone striker.

But we have enough games for everybody to get a chance to show their stuff.

My teams:

For mid-low level Premiership sides:

Howard
Neville Yobo Jagielka Distin
Pienaar Osman Fellaini Bilya
Yakubu Saha

For Top 6 teams:

Howard
Heitinga Jagielka Distin Baines
Pienaar Arteta Fellaini Rodwell
Cahill Saha

For Europe:

Howard
Heitinga Jagielka Yobo Baines
Pieaar Arteta Rodwell Billy
Cahill Saha

For Carling Cup/ Initial FA Cup rounds

Howard
Hibbert Heitinga Neville Distin
Gosling Rodwell Fellaini Osman
Anichebe Vaughan

I am not naive to think that Moyes will rotate his squad as much as I suggest above, but I certainly do hope that Moyes pursues a more "proactive" rotation policy this year, rather than the "reactive" changes that he has tended to make in the past (injuries, suspensions, AFCON, etc). This will give more chances for players to be on their toes, lesser fatigue & injuries, and more opportunities for youngsters.
Timmy Mongiat
58   Posted 02/09/2009 at 17:26:10

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Ciaran, you used the expression ’numbskull’ in your post. Well, you are evidently among the biggest numbskulls on this form and im going to address one specific comment - ’So where did the money from bids made before teh Lescott sale go to? And where’s the rest of the Lescott money? But I would bet top dollar we’ve put no more than 10 mill down for the players we’ve brought in.

Has it just vanished? did it exist? Derren Brown? Mass hullucination?

This is simple economics....the team doing well CREATES REVENUE! ’

A little breakdown of finances for you. At the end of the 2008 financial year we had a debt percentage as value of 30%. At the end of the 2009 financial year whilst our income increased and our value increased, so did our debt at a greater level with our debt totalling 49% of a value as of this april. Now a football club isnt easy to make money from, it’s also a business like any other and affected by the recession accordingly. It’s not been easy to refinance our increased debts and as a result we have not had alot of money to spend. Three other of the most indebted in the premiership are Manchester united, Arsenal and Liverpool. Manchester united recouped approaching 90mil this summer (exact payment plans are not clear), however their outlay totalled less than 25million. Arsenal recouped more than they brought in and Liverpool’s net spend was very very minimal. Now you are clearly a bit of a numbskull but let me break this down for you.... MORE DEBT plus RECESSION plus WEAK POUND = MINIMAL TRANSFER FUNDS. It’s not just us, the actual net spend of clubs will be lower than all recent summer transfer windows. I would recommend that you do not insult, show yourself to be a hypocrite in the same thread and also illustrate your stupidity so superbly for us all.

With respect to our team situation. Despite your comments, I’m sure people are aware of Heitinga and ’Billy’. Spanish/dutch football is/has been easily accessible and I’m sure we’ve all seen Billy play during the russian qualifiers and summer European championships and in some club games. As with any player whether it be an under 18 international or a world beater, there is a possibility they won’t adapt to the premiership. However both have been tracked for a while, both have experience at the highest level of play and it is acceptable to predict that they will bring something to our squad and first team. If we didn’t make some assumptions then basically every possible transfer could be pulled apart and criticised.

With respect to the continued criticism of our club and the ongoing sensationalism. These players got us to an FA cup final last season, they also got us to fifth in the hardest league in the world, despite the fact that we had terrible injury problems and got off to an awful start. Our form from November onwards was on a par with a top four team. So it might be an idea to consider the possibility that our players are not quite as poor as some are suggesting on here. It would also be prudent to not pay too much attention to the premiership table until chrismas, team’s can start well, it is not a guarantee of final success (Look at Hull last season and Manchester united’s first few months). We have improved our squad, that is a fact, and equally importantly we have improved it without putting our financial future at risk and we should also have a few million to spend in January. But please please please stop overreacting so much to the first three games of the season.
Mark Pierpoint
59   Posted 02/09/2009 at 18:01:09

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This is the way i would see the team providing everyone is fit (I admit this is a big ask for any club)

GK.
..............Howard.........................................

need anyone say more, Nash knows his role. No competition

Def

Neville........Jags.......Distin.........Baines

WHEN we have a (near) full strentgth midfield to choose from Neville has to go in at right back. He is going to play. All of the posters leaving him out are being unrealistic. If he merits a place on footballing grounds is a separate debate, but as a leader i think we need him.

Midfield

.......................Felliani.........Arteta..............
Bilyaletdinov................................Pienaar
........................Cahill...................................

This will change i imagine depending on the oppostion. I am trying to think like Moyes here. Though it produces some shit football he likes it and it does work. Felliani plays his best games with Arteta and gives us another dimension. In the trickier games think you would have to go with one of Heitinga, Neville or Rodwell for denfensive cover. Against the weaker opposition though i feel having Felliani is more of a statement of intent.

Striker
.....................Saha.......................................

Plays well on his own. Though i am a big fan of the Yak he isn’t going to be rushed back. By the time he is ready to play, i would hope it is Saha’s to lose.

Bench

Rodwell- Still learning. Will play games but not lets put too much pressure his way

Heitinga- Good buy, but can’t say i have seen him play. Versatile, at 6m suggests jack of all trades, master of none to me. Neville-esque. Would be first choice RB if Neville slots into midfield though.

Yak

Nash

Yobo

Anichebe

Osman.
Mike Green
60   Posted 02/09/2009 at 18:15:17

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Tim - or as Richard Slater put it - ’bellends’, ’anti-everton’ and ’Kopites’?
Ben Jones
61   Posted 03/09/2009 at 01:03:30

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Ciaran, Neville shit in midfield? A bit harsh, isnt it? He used to be shit there when Carsley was there, but now he’s gone, he’s consistent, solid and does his job, which is required in his position.

With the team to Fulham, it’s difficult to call. I can’t see Billy playing as he is still adapting to life in the EPL, looking forward to seeing him play for Russia though. Heitinga won’t play either because of the same reason, and the fact, Hibbert has not done much this season.

On paper though, this I reckon is our strongest team

Howard
Heitinga, Baines, Distin, Jagielka
Pienaar, Rodwell/Neville, Arteta, Billy
Cahill
Yakubu

I say this thing with Rodwell and Neville because for one, Neville is our captain, and second even though ability wise Rodwell is better than Neville, he’s too young to play 60 odd games this season, so those two shold no doubt rotate.

Disagree with some people saying Saha’s our best striker, Yakubu’s goal record speaks for itself, and when he’s fit, he scores for fun. Jo and Saha though are definitely not far behind and we look good on that front.

With options like Yobo, Hibbert, Osman, Fellaini, Gosling, Jo and Saha though, we actually have options on the bench. On paper, we do have a strong squad.

But with Ciaran’s frustrations, I agree with him wholeheartedly, because we could and should have done with a couple more players. The players we have got in do look good, in my opinion, and will excel in the EPL, but leaving to do business at the last week of the transfer window, it could have been done better.

And with Suzy, to come up with statements that we will finish below Spurs and City is ridiculous. They do both look good at the moment, but we have an equal chance, because we have kept the same players, so we play more of a team. On paper, our squad would finish 7th or 8th, but this team have shown in the past couple of seasons, that in REALITY, we have finished above them. It’ll be tough, but I think another fifth finish is definitely acheivable... dunno about 4th though, but it is definitely what we should be aiming as a realistic aim.
Pete Gunby
62   Posted 03/09/2009 at 05:09:35

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Timmy Mongiat, I find your name calling of Ciaran, or any Evertonian, off putting. We, here on the TW, try to maintain superior standards-another way to distinguish us from the riffraff.
Your labeling Ciaran as "a numbskull" , " a hypocrite" and "stupid" is childish and ,more importantly, is incorrect. In the future please try to conduct yourself in a mature intelligent manner, refrain from the derogatory invective, and try to elevate yourself. We look forward to your improved future efforts,
Pete
p.s. Your idiotic economics lesson was an absolute steaming pile of s$#t. Hypocritical numbskulls like you should stick to crayons, finger paints
and see saws.
Ciarán McGlone
63   Posted 03/09/2009 at 09:23:14

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Timmy Mongiat.

That was a superb piece of whataboutery....Nevermind hypocrisy.

All the while castigating me for using the word ’numbskull’ - you continued to use it several times while adding other little insults of your own in.

A fantastic post that sought to ’address one specific comment’ - yet rambled on about other clubs without ever actually managing to get anywhere near the questions posed...

Classic. There was evidently money available before Lescott went..so where is that money?

Do you fancy actually answering the question...without engaging in politically inspired dodgeball?
Timmy Mongiat
64   Posted 03/09/2009 at 10:47:58

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Pete if you would have bothered to read the post, you would have noted that Ciaran labelled certain members as numbskulls. I was addressing his insults. Also idiotic economic lesson? Clearly you’ve no grasp of business whatsoever or of Everton’s financial position, however if you know how (which I very much doubt considering the way you’ve completely misconstrued what I was saying) it might be an idea to research it and then reconsider the generalised comments regarding our spending in this thread. It was simplistic, but simplicity was needed as many seemed to ignore our finances when attacking the club’s spending, foremost among those was Ciaran. I’ll ignore your condescending tone, and look forward to an improved attempt at a response in the future

Politically inspired dodgeball? You are aware that these are real figures yes? Financial disclosures that all clubs make? However as you have clearly have trouble reading, I will break it down again for you. You’ve questioned why we haven’t spent this summer to a larger degree. You used the basis for this argument on the fact that our performance last season must have increased revenue. I answered this by stating that our debts have increased by a large degree between our last financial years. I also explained that we are in an economic recession, which has all manner of knock on effects. We also have a very weak pound, so any imports will cost considerably more than they would have a year ago. A 50% Tax rate is also being introduced which makes England a less lucrative climate. I also used the examples of other clubs spending to illustrate the problems of all clubs during this economic period (net spending for the summer transfer window was below 100million)

Furthermore with respect to money available before the Lescott deal. The most valued and transparent deal on the table was that of Naughton and Walker, a deal which would have seen a max of 5million up front and less wages paid in view of the player’s age and walker’s loan back to Sheffield united. Elm was talked about, but Kalmar denied receiving any offer and we never disclosed that we made one. Now whilst money was available, it should be noted that we brought in four experienced players, each with large wage demands (Especially heitinga). It should also be noted that the whole of the Lescott deal will not have paid in full whilst a 15% of the profit made on Lescott went to Wolves (So around 2.5million will be lost). In view of compensation paid for youngsters, signing on fee’s of the American minnow’s and a loan fee of Jo, as well as the approximate 9million deal for Billy, 5million up front for Distin and 6 million for Heitinga (both Distin and Heitinga rising depending on clauses) we have made a net spend in this transfer window. We may have had a couple of million to spend but no more, that is clear from our finances, from the economic position, from Comments from Moyes whereby he was expressing a desire to spend ‘more’ than just the Lescott monies whilst also stating that Bill was doing all he could because of our financial position, that we did not have much more. Now you can continue to ignore our finances, to come up with empty contrived answers to my explanations but our position is there for all to see. We have large debts and we don’t have big financial backers and the only real spenders this year were those clubs with the large financial backers.
Ciarán McGlone
65   Posted 03/09/2009 at 11:39:11

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Timmy,

I refered to those ’numbskulls’ who personally attacked me on another thread for suggesting that Heitinga would be cover for centre half...so it wasn’t a matter of popping up and throwing insults around for no reason - Like you did.


Now on to your thoroughly laughable post.

Starting with this bit...

"You used the basis for this argument on the fact that our performance last season must have increased revenue."

I did nothing of the sort. You are presenting a straw argument here. I never once refered to increased reveubne for last season. Read my posts.

As for your supposition filled response on the money available before Lescott. I would have hoped you could’ve have responded to this question without refering to the Lescott cash itself..and certainly without presenting your own supposition as fact...your suggestion that we paid for our players this summer up front is at best a guess on your behalf..and at worst - an ill-informed barrel scraping exercise - especially considering our form for structuring deals over many years.

Other things that are merely supposition in your post: that Wolves get 15%; that our incoming players wages are anymore than our outgoing players; that college players get a signing on fee; that we paid a loan fee for Jo; - all pieces of guesswork on your behalf..

And after all that, you fail to actually answer the question you set out to specifically answer several posts ago...

Where did the pre-lescott money go?
This includes part of the bids we made for Naughton, senderos and Dufour...? and where’s the balance of the Lescott money? (as it’s highly unlikely we paid for the three players up front)

And if you could please do it this time without resorting to strawman arguments and supposition.. that would be great.
Timmy Mongiat
66   Posted 03/09/2009 at 12:20:49

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Your quote - ’This is simple economics....the team doing well CREATES REVENUE!’ You are discussing the matter in the context of this transfer window, so how exactly have you not referred to our revenue from last season? I would suggest you check your own quotes before denying them.

With respect to a loan fee for Jo. Are you actually stating that we wouldn’t have paid a Loan fee? do you have any idea as to how loan deal’s work?

You state that I state that we paid for all our transfers in full this summer. If you read my quote I clearly refer to an upfront fee for Distin ’£5million up front for Distin’ as it is my understanding and the general acceptance that we did pay a £5million fee up front for Distin, not in installments, as an upfront fee was required by Portsmouth to finance other dealings.

You talk about supposition yet you assume we made a bid for Defour due to media/agent speculation, despite Everton never confirming this. The bid for Senderos came after Naughton dealings and we do not know the monetary amounts involved or whether it was a loan bid. It’s hilarious that you talk about strawman arguments and supposition yet you make uneducated assumptions throughout your thread and assume we have made monetary bids for players without club confirmation.

I’ve made educated guesses. If you research the american players involved and their contract situation you will note their age and therefore recognise a fee will have to be involved. You will also note that the players are listed as undisclosed transfers(if you are unfamiliar with FA regulation and need further confirmation). If you know anything about loan dealings, you know that a fee will be involved. With respect to the wolves sell on, I have made an assumption that it is 15% that is correct, the existence of a sell on is not in doubt. The guesswork is the figure, which has not been confirmed from wolves. And you assume that we recieve the lescott money up front ’where’s the balance of the lescott money (As it’s highly unlikely we paid for the three players up front).

Now please explain to me, without resorting to strawman arguments and supposition, where everton have stated that we have recieved the Lescott fee in full, How Everton have signed a 22-year-old American and 21-year-old American without paying a fee and how It’s so wrong for me to assume that our wages have increased (Distin’s high wages and that are of Heitinga at pompey and athletico are not speculation as well as Jo’s) yet it is acceptable for you to assume that we made a multi-million pound bid for Defour and a monetary bid for Senderos (as Senderos has a buyout clause of £6million and we stated on numerous occasions that we were signing him as backup (Lescott wasn’t leaving at this time) I find it highly unlikely that we would pay a meaningful figure and that a loan was the more likely scenario). Thanks for your further reply though, was a good laugh.
Ciarán McGlone
67   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:21:45

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Timmy,

Do you often fill in the blanks in othre people's arguments to suit your own response? I read the first paragraph and you repeated the straw argument... so, no point reading any further.

I’ll merely assume your response is peppered with further guesswork and argument against a position that doesn’t exist.

I would avoid calling anyone a ’numbskull’ in future if I was you.

Good day.
Timmy Mongiat
68   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:27:18

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I assumed you wouldnt bother with a proper response after your last reply in which you managed to forget a comment you made and then went onto show a complete ignorance of how football deals work, attack me for supposition and then make numerous unfounded and laughable assumptions. Glad to see I wasn’t mistaken. And after your continued amusing attempts at trying to set out a psuedo-intellectual argument (with your hypocrisy never far away) I think the term 'numbskull' was rather lenient.
Ciarán McGlone
69   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:47:16

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The comment I made has absolutely no relation to the position you invented for me.

I’ll explain it slowly for you Tim...Me stating that a team doing well creates revenue..is not the same, not even close...not even similar in any way whatsoever....to me saying...’our revenue increased last year - where is that money’.

If you can’t see that obvious fact, then I can offer you no more help.

..and your continued use of insults to compensate for a lack of coherent argument, really has no place in intelligent or civilised debate.
Tim Lloyd
70   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:20:16

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Hm! This forum I thought was to post opinions about the various movements involving our club. Everton. Too often, in my opinion, it seems to be a vehicle for one poster to slang another.

Have to tell you guys, such slanging matches are rarely informative to the other Joe’s who primarily read this forum for news of the club and its players.

Do you get such a kick out of showing your vocabulary skills?
Timmy Mongiat
71   Posted 03/09/2009 at 13:52:25

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You are right Tim, this matter has gone on far to long and it is not correct use of this forum. However, on here as of yet, I have not come across a member as stupid and incoherent as Ciaran. He seems to think, on this thread and others (among his other laughable theories), that Bill Kenwright is sitting on a pot of gold.

I’ve tried to illustrate that our debts have increased to a large (and worryingly) degree, that there are all manner of economic problems which affect our spending but over and over again he seems to completely ignore and miss the obvious. Upon reading another thread, however, whereby he again managed to upset a lot of members with his comments and naivety, I came across a wonderful comment from a fellow member.

"Ciaran,

"You are now my choice for the most incoherent Everton fan. You frequently miss the point that people are making. Your defensive mechanism (have you been hurt in the past?) rapidly comes up and you chose to use come-backs weaker than a Phil Neville strike at goal.

"I look forward to meeting you one day — and I will know you when I see you — there will be hundreds of suspended pennies hovering around you waiting to drop. Your disjointed understandings border on humourous and unfortunately are becoming quite predictable. I sometimes feel sorry for very naive little boys and will always be here for you if you ever need to talk about things"

Thank you, Suzy.

Ciarán McGlone
72   Posted 03/09/2009 at 14:13:20

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"However, on here as of yet, I have not come across a member as stupid and incoherent as Ciaran. He seems to think, on this thread and others (among his other laughable theories), that Bill Kenwright is sitting on a pot of gold."
---------------------------------

Yet more personal insults - and strawman arguments.... please stop, this is far too easy....

I haven’t any laughable theories - You made them all up in my name...
Pete Gunby
73   Posted 04/09/2009 at 04:53:26

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Tim, Proclaiming yourself an expert and all who see things differently to you to be "numbskulls and Idiots" is an interesting technique, but a flawed technique. Going over your posts, I put it to you that oftentimes less is more.
Timmy Mongiat
74   Posted 04/09/2009 at 14:25:26

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Pete, do you have trouble reading? I have at no point proclaimed myself as an expert and called those who see things differently to be ’numbskulls and idiots’. I’ve been referring to Ciaran throughout (as I started last season) after getting feed up with his niave comments and insults throughout this thread and other threads. (You will see he doesn't have many fans for a reason.) Although I may have to extend my numbskull count if you prove unable to read correctly for a third time in this thread.

With respect to being an expert (where youve got this from I don’t know), it doesn't take much to look up our financial position and debt as value (I used a Forbes source) and it doesn't take much to work out that every club not backed by a billionaire has had problems in this transfer window (hence the lowest net spend for seasons). We are not as big as some other clubs in the Premier League, clubs that we aspire to be like, and therefore do not have the capacity to spend millions every summer, especially during a summer during the worst economic recession for some time.

Timmy Mongiat
75   Posted 04/09/2009 at 14:33:33

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