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Tactics of a Madman

By Tony Marsh :  14/09/2009 :  Comments (190) :
I hate being right when I am predicting an Everton downfall and Sunday at Fulham, I called it spot on. My view was Hibbert and Osman would both start and once we went behind, subs would be made but all too late to save the game. It was so true it was scarey.

When a so-called negative moaner like myself can predict what Moyes will do with his players during a game, don't you think the opposing managers can suss him out?

The thing that worries me most of all is the response from some of our fans after this most predictable of defeats. Did you really expect anything else from Deadly Dave? I keep telling you what this man is all about but you just won't have it.

Did you really believe the new guys would come in for the gruesome twosome — Hibbert and Osman? Did you for a second think we would take the game to Fulham and try to out-football them?... I didn't.

Haven't any of you lot sussed out this joker Moyes yet? After all these years of boring negative dull unattractive shite his teams churn out, did you really think that he would change it around this season?

The trouble with Everton under Moyes is, no matter who we play, the performance is a carbon copy of all the others before. The only thing that changes is the results. We play the same way and nick a game or we play the same way and lose the game. It's a fucked up system to adopt and has no place in the modern game.

I bet any money you like, though, if we had of won yesterday's game with the exact same performance, hanging on to a 1-0 win, most of you would be happy with the shite. The difference is I wouldn't be.

I am sick to the pit of my fucking stomach watching an Everton team who have had the stability of the same manager for 8 years, playing like a shower of boozed up Sunday League players who have just climbed out of their pits. It's a fucking disgrace. Hoofball has never worked and never will. The only one who thinks it does work is Darling Dave.

Jo is now becoming the latest James Beattie, Andy Johnson and the Yak — last season, Moyes's dude striker. Playing with his back to goal all game and chasing mindless punts into the channels. IT'S A FUCKING JOKE! Where's the slide-rule pass? Where's the ball cut back to feet? There are none. No, it's all bomber command stuff coming on to the bonce from up above with ice on the ball.

Some of our fans have got a nerve being critical of Jo but he is only going through what all Moyes strikers go through, Despair... followed by desperation at the lack of goal-scoring opportunities being created.

Three weeks ago, I said we were already in a relegation battle and you all laughed. Are you still laughing now? Because I am not.

It's common knowledge that Moyes lost the dressing room in the summer over the pathetic way he treated Joleon Lescott and I don't think he will ever get it back. Not this time. Do any of you now still think Roger made a bad choice with his move to City? I bet he is laughing his bollocks off right now.

You can see the mismanagment and the dislike of the tactics out on the pitch. You can see the players don't want to know. The miserable dull souless persona that Moyes has is now filtering through to the players.

It must be horrible having to play these moronic systems when you know you are a half-decent footballer. Trying to carry out the orders of a man out of his depth with the basics of the game.

As far as I am concerned, the season as far as a decent League placing is over. It's all down to the cups again... HA HA HA. When you have a manager who puts saftey first above all else, you aint winning Jack Shit.

Moyes is going stale and so are the players. It's only because we have got so many clueless fans that he gets away with this nonsensical style of play. We need someone to freshen things up and bring a bit of cheer and a sense of fun to the club.

Davey Dark Clouds needs to seriously lighten up. All this dour back-to-the-walls crap is killing the passion and taking away what enjoyment is left when watching football. It's so hard for me to take to Moyes for the simple reson he is a dull PE tacher-type. And a coward as well.

I love football and love watching the game being played in the correct manner. I hate watching Everton these days as it's so embarrassing. I think it's sad that we are so far behind the big 5 — not only in a finacial sense but in a playing sense.

Love him or loathe him, you cannot deny David Moyes hasn't got a clue how to send a team out to play attacking exciting football. Moyes is a long-ball merchant and will never change. The problem is how much longer will fans stick around and pay to watch this shite??

Even more worrying is how much longer will the good players at the club want to be a part of misery-arse's gormless game plans.Something needs to give or this will be one hell of a long season.

Reader Comments

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George McKane
1   Posted 15/09/2009 at 07:51:48

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I agree Tony - the sad thing, apart from having to watch such dull, predictable football, is the total acceptance of it all, by the Club, Management and even sadder the fans. The moment I criticise Moyes, his tactics and his substitutions people do not argue back or defend him, they only ask "who would you have". Well right now I’d have almost anybody. Also, because, like you Tony, I do not accept mediocrity, I am told that I am not a true Evertonian, after almost 50 years of watching Everton.

I disagree vehemently, I am a tremendous Evertonian, go every game, support my team, but do not accept that every manager and every player is fantastic merely by being here. What does that make Walker and happy old Uncle Walter.I read on Toffeeweb that someone said Moyes was better than Catterick and Kendall. Eeeeaaargghhh. Come on.

Like you, after the Cup Final, again predictable hoofball, I thought we would finish bottom 10. People said it was miserable. I have seen nothing this season to change my mind.Everton fans are passionate, we need a manager with passion, excitement and some personality that can be reflected on the pitch.

Chris Perry
2   Posted 15/09/2009 at 08:13:02

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Tony, spot on with everything. The standard of football under Moyes is a joke, it is embarrassing watching the game on TV infront of family or friends because you just cannot defend the crap that everyone is watching. As for the two complete wastes of space, Osman and Hibbert, they would not get into any other Prem team. Why do so many Everton supporters settle for second best!?!
Henry Enzio
3   Posted 15/09/2009 at 08:19:32

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A fantastic post Tony reminiscent in tone to Corporal Jones in Dads Army!

Who is more dour: Marsh or Moyes?

Brian Noble
4   Posted 15/09/2009 at 08:13:46

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Just like yourself, Tony, I’ve never taken to Davey Moyes although there have been times when I have allowed myself to be seduced by his ability to seemingly get better results than the football his teams produce justify. His limitations have always been exposed in important one-off games and/or matches against the Big Four.

Tactically he is a dinosour and as you rightly state has ruined any decent striker who offers an iota of flare. His substitutions have been — and continue to be — a joke and any opposition manager must be able to read him like a book. All those Manager of the Year Awards are, to my mind, skewed by the refusal of any of the top men to give any votes to each other — "Davey’s never going to get my job so let’s give him the nod."

I guess that reads like a total assassination of a man who has, at least kept us ’up there’ nearer top than bottom but, be that as it may, his time is past. The problem is, his Buddy Bill won't see it that way and the ridiculous contract he gave him will ensure we have to suffer its full term.

God help us all!

Karl Parsons
5   Posted 15/09/2009 at 08:57:49

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Grow up Tony.

I bet this time last year you were mouthing off in the same panic stricken way. Didn’t hear you moaning when you were paying for your cup final ticket and planning where to get the money to travel aboard at the end of the season.

Call me a detective if you like but nobody knows better than DM the current state of affairs at my Club and although you may have called a couple of stats right that makes you no guru in my book.

What is that they say; "A wise man has something to say, a fool has to say something." Consider that before your next post mate.
Tony Williams
6   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:04:46

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Morning Marshy, surprised to see you posting after a terrible game. Where you on holiday for the last few weeks, I missed you after the Wigan game.

Yes we are shite, yes Moyes is a tactically clueless coward, yes our players are incapable of playing football on the ground. Why are you then so surprised and usually outraged when we we get beat then?

Your incessant posts always tell us how crap the manager/players are yet you seem to think we should be challenging the Top 4 teams... kind of inconsistent that.

Well done in predicting a defeat at a ground we have only won once in 40 odd years, the bookies must be shitting themselves, I was wondering why the odds had Fulham as favorites to win.
Gareth Humphreys
7   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:10:19

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Tony, defeat was hardly predictable at half-time when we were comfortably the better side.

WIth regards to Jo, you could play all the slide-rule passes in the world and it won’t make any difference to that clown — he’s shite. I dont remember Yakubu complaining about the lack of service when he was rattling in 20 goals.

Concerning Lescott, Moyes treated him in exactly the right way. Turning down bids and only when Lescott’s head went did he try and get the best deal for the club. BK was obviously delighted with the cash but Moyes could not have handled that better.

If you think that each season we are going to have a crack at the top four then you are mistaken. CIty have spent nearly £200m and it is still up in the air where they will finish. Get real. Cups are what we have.

I think sometimes you have good things to say but this is not one of them — nearly 100% utter shite fuelled by a defeat to a deflected goal.

Patty Beesley
8   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:17:11

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If you hate watching Everton so much then there is one simple solution... don’t watch them. Spend your time undertaking football management courses instead and then, one day, you might be good enough to manage Everton and we can all slag you off the way you slag off Davey Moyes in your disgusting fashion.
Tony Marsh
9   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:16:09

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Tony, what's Wembley got to do with anything? Wigan, West Brom, Wembley... I still go. As a matter of fact, I wish I hadn't bothered with the final last May as it was the biggest let down in all my years watching Everton. A typical Moyes day at the office.

You can bleat on all you like about 5th place finishes and cup final appearances but where has it taken us? Things are just the same as they where years ago. Nothing changes. We still play atrocious football and Moyes still makes terrible decisions with his team selections and tactics.

Please tell me Tony what did the mauling at Wembley by Chelsea tell you about Moyes and his team? I already knew before we kicked off what would happen.

I would sooner finish 8th every season and entertain the fans than put up with this shite season after season. In reality, we won't win anything so let's try and keep the fans happy.
Stefan Tosev
10   Posted 15/09/2009 at 08:48:05

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Wow, I havent been for while and nothing new here couple of bad results and Tony Marsh is already throwing the towel, carbon copy of his last years posts at same time. Pity we don't have his favourites at the club the likes of Barton, Nugent, Koumas, Coppel — what a great team that would be.

I find it amusing how people can be in agreement with a guy who cant comprehend the difficult question why it takes so long for Everton to conclude a transfer and it takes only a couple of hours for MU.

Moreover calling a manager pathetic for refusing £15M for a player and selling him for £24M and thus releasing himself an extra £9M in transfer funds on top of his 000 000 kitty is pathetic for sure but only in your own world where misery rules.

One more thing: two seasons ago a guy was here bleating about Man City and their marvellous new owner Thaksin Shinawatra and exiting new trainer SGE and 4 wins from the first 5 games, I said him then and I am saying it now — it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

Man City have invested more than £250M net in their team over the last two years — their results are one 8th place; Moyes's net spending for the last two years is a grand total of Zero, the guy is working with what he can generate — that is it — not one extra pound from outside, and you have the travesty of accusing him, for forking out extra £9M of Shitty, of being pathetic, buddy that can happen only in your mind?!?!?

For the last 3 years with this multi pound zero investment Moyes has achieved 6th, 5th, and 5th place finishes, one cup semi-final and one cup final, where he has eliminated the likes of Villa, MU and Liverpool.

Furthermore, your constant rumours "Moyes is giving J Vaughan the cold shoulder" where even a bloke with just two brain cells, one for breathing and one for thinking, can see that the guy is constantly injured... it's not even pathetic, it's plain dumb. The same goes with "Moyes lost the dressing room" — yeah right, in your head he is loosing it at least 2-3 times per year, had bust ups with Carsley, Cahill, Arteta...etc. The good thing is you will be again silenced for 4-5 months, you know that don’t you?
James Thomas
11   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:22:42

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Tony Marsh being Tony Marsh means that every post he makes will undoubtedly meet with fury from many a Toffeewebber who see his relentlessly downbeat attitude as harmful to the club. However, whilst I question his view on the Lescott saga and think that it’s not ALWAYS just Hibbert's and Osman’s fault, he makes a lot of sense today.

Moyes and the team do look stale. The attitude in the second half at Fulham was appalling and the tactics insane. When viewing a Marsh article, try to read it without looking at the name, because here he’s actually making a lot of sense for once...

Ella Thornton
12   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:26:37

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Patty’s right - I often wonder why Tony Marsh does continue to watch Everton. I’m not being sarcastic here, it very obviously makes him thoroughly angry and miserable. Why put yourself through it, Tony? It’s not compulsory. It’s bad for your health. Stay a blue, but watch something which makes you happier.
Mark Murphy
13   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:30:33

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Tony (Marsh), sadly, if you take out the vitriol, I agree with you.

Apart from the 2 obvious suspects, I wouldn't have swapped any of the rest for any of the Fulham players — so how come we were so far off them in the second half? Even with Hibbert and Osman we should have battered them and this isnt the first occasion our very decent team has failed to grab a game and dominate so I can only look at the manager. If we lose 2-1 to any of the top six away, I can handle that... but we play shite against the most abject teams that we should easilly hammer!

As for Jo, I disagree with Gareth. Slide-rule passes into the box are exactly the sort of ball he needs and he would thrive on — I’m sure of that. He’s a face-to-goal striker — therefore wasted in this team and is probably looking at Eastlands with regretful eyes at the moment!

On paper this squad excites me — other people have pointed out that it's the best looking team since the 80s and I agree — but I can't see it fulfilling its promise under Davey Moyes. We have the potential there to be top four if we are brave but he’s just too negative and one dimensional.

And it really saddens me to say that!

Ciarán McGlone
14   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:35:29

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...but he’s won the LMA award 3 times, therefore he’s above criticism....eh Suzy.

John Barnes
15   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:34:05

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Tony Marsh is right, we are pure crap to watch. Trying to talk Moyes up about where he has brought us to in 7 or 8 years is ok up to a point. With the players he has brought in we should be up around 5th, 6th every season. I don't buy this ’punching above our weight’ shite. You finish in a league exactly where you deserve to finish.

Moyes deserves credit for spotting a few bargains and I guess the truth is that results have come from the level of quality those players have (e.g. Cahill's goalscoring, Jagielka’s reliable defending, Yak’s, goal tally, even Howard finally saving penalties etc) rather than any tactical master plan of the manager.

Results tell you that we lack the quality of the big boys but have more quality than the promoted teams and the mid-table drifters. The problem is we are crap to watch. We could try to keep it on the deck, play a bit of attractive footy and still get the same level of results as we do with hoofball, and puddled substitutions. We ain’t going to break the mould at the top either way given the level of ability we have, or can afford. Which would you prefer?

Dick Fearon
16   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:40:17

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Moyes says it will be a few more weeks before our team is hitting its straps. Silly me for thinking we should have been ready and doing just that a month ago.

And another thing, now that Johnny and Bily have signed on the dotted line, we do not save any more on their wages. Get them out on the field and let them earn their keep.
Colin Potter
17   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:47:08

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Tony, wait for the "Well, who would you replace Moyes with?" brigade...
Dennis Stevens
18   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:39:08

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Despite the frothing-at-the-mouth responses Tony inevitably receives from those wearing their blue-tinted specs, there’s not a lot to really disagree with in his post this time.

In Moyes’s early days, people were quite happy with a "pragmatic" approach as it seemed to be lifting us from relegation candidates to a stable top-half team & since then Moyes has managed to regularly make us one of if not the "best of the rest" — a great achievement on such sparse resources.

And yet Tony is right to say the style of football has not progressed. Apart from a brief purple patch most seasons where we may see a handfull of decent displays, it is all, as Tony says, about safety first & trying to nick a result. Is this because the players are inhibited from expressing themselves on the pitch & if so, is it a lack of confidence or strict adherence to Moyes’s tactics?

I have to say in some ways Moyes does remind me of Gordon Lee — of whom George Orr says : "...Lee couldn’t understand that just being in second place didn’t mean a thing to an Evertonian unless the football was good. We are not Kopites who are happy to see anything as long as they win."

The point about Lescott is well made, Moyes seemed to be playing the age old Everton trick of setting up the player to be scapegoated by the fans for leaving, even though the club are desperate to get the cash in as we’re skint, as usual. Not impressive, imho.

I disagree somewhat re Hibbert & Osman. Hibbert was always a limited footballer but an effective full-back — what’s gone wrong there? Osman is no Arteta but he has some talent & I expected him to be used as Arteta’s replacement in the middle of the park where he’s most effective, instead he’s being wasted, striving to do the job he’s been asked to do despite clearly not being the right man for the role.

I’m not one for playing manager and it’s up to Moyes to pull this shit together again; I suspect he will, but in his usual style, of course — however, even though Moyes likes to have a squad of versatile players, maybe playing a few more of them in their natural positions might not be a bad start.

I suspect Tony, like myself, would like nothing better than to see Moyes prove us wrong and show that his Everton team can be successful playing football consistently — but, nearly 8 years in, I doubt if we’ll see Moyes have a sudden "Road to Damascus" moment.

Craig Wilson
19   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:00:50

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Tony (Marsh), I am pretty sure I once read a comment by you that if we ever moved to Kirkby you wouldn’t set foot in the place, I actually voted against the Kirkby move but am starting to warm to the idea if it keeps the likes of you away!!! Pretty sure you slated a 14-year-old lad off for having Barmby as his hero while he was at our club as well.

While no-one is happy with Sunday's second-half performance, it is still only a couple of games in and with new players still to settle and get to know each other, I still think it's a bit early for the panic button to be hit. I don’t think anyone really expected us to crash the big 4 party this season we are more than a couple of players away, just look at the amount of money Spurs have spent in the last 9 months and they still can't beat 10 men Man Utd with an ageing Giggs and Scholes in the side!!!

So let's presume you get your wish and we part with Moyes, who would replace him? Who would come to a club with no money and take the abuse people like you dish out when the going gets tough?

Steve Guy
20   Posted 15/09/2009 at 09:46:17

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I’m falling between two stools here. I think the players looking "stale" is more down to their need to re-group and focus after the Lescott saga and the lack of momentum this subsequently caused to the season’s start. Moyes hasn’t lost the dressing room, this is scaremongering at best and unfair to the players who hauled themselves over the finishing line playing some neat football.

We miss Arteta and that has been plain to see. Elsewhere someone has suggested Pienaar should be tried out in the centre and I agree with that. He has a great "engine" and should be given a freer role as our one truly creative player.

I do have to agree that our form is worrying and old fat chops Allardyce will be rubbing his hands in glee at the thought of taking us on at the moment. I am sure AEK Athens had us watched on Sunday and were not troubled by what they saw either.

Until Arteta and Jagielka return and in the absence of Phil Neville, I would move Rodwell into the holding role in front of the back four and take Osman and Hibbert out in favour of the new boys. Fellaini can take up the slack in midfield and I prefer Saha to Jo when fit (assuming the Yak isn’t as he would always be my first choice in a 4-5-1). I don’t think we will see the best of Jo unless he has someone playing closer to him in a 4-4-2 style formation.

We need to get back to grinding out results and I know it’s not pretty but we won’t run into form this season until we get the basics right again. I have to agree with those that believe this season we will do well to finish in a Europa position, but if we can get back playing with a fuller squad by Christmas I don’t see why another cup run isn’t possible; this squad and it’s manager have pleasantly surprised us all in recent years with what they have achieved despite the views of media and some Toffeewebbers.

I went to Wembley more in hope than expectation, but I am grateful for the chance to experience that kind of occasion again and to have shared it with my son. Moyes and the players gave me that chance. This doesn’t pardon some awful stuff this season (so far) but whilst it’s easy to say "yeah, but what have we won?", I think we should see the last couple of months in the context of the last few years; where we have consistently earned the respect of those who know their football up and down this country for how the Club has been turned around.

Tony, we all know what you think of Moyes and Kenwright, ad nauseam. How about starting a more constructive debate about what we can do with the resources we have available, instead of constantly be-moaning those things we can’t influence ?

Patty Beesley
21   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:22:33

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Good job we didn’t have Gareth Southgate for a Manager last season instead of him being at Middlesborough....my God, you really would have had a field day then Tony.
Jason Lam
22   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:22:22

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Let’s take it one game at a time, the Fulham game was absolutely shite. What’s up with all the hoofball in the second half? No excuses after 8 years at the helm.

Can we afford Gus Hiddink? He could turn South Korea, Australia, and Russia into decent, football playing sides.
David Ellis
23   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:08:57

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Another impressively delusional post by T. Marsh. And a few equally impressively delusional souls agreeing with it.

Where do we start....?

1. You were not the only one to predict that Osman and Hibbert would start. This is hardly shocking news to any informed supporter. Given the new lads have had the opportunity of one training session with the squad since they signed I don’t think this can go down as evidence of a bad decision by Moyes.

2. You say that no matter who we play the performance is the same. This is simply untrue. The performance at Craven Cottage at the end of last season with essentially the same team was completely different to Sunday’s debacle. The data does not support your views — and how others can agree with this viewpoint is beyond me.

3. You say that Jo is going the way of Beattie and AJ. You may be right — he shares with them an inability to control the ball with his first touch. No one likes hoofball — and I am quite sure that Moyes is also in this camp. Not because it is ugly to watch. It just doesn’t work. We win games when we play it on the ground. What evidence do you have that Moyes wants to play hoofball? The fact that the team resorts to this when confidence is low does not mean this comes from Moyes. I am not aware of hearing him quoted on style of play. Wanting to keep it tight at the back is not the same as wanting hoofball — which simply keeps the defence under constant pressure. This is the only point you make that I can understand people agreeing with — i.e. hoofball is a bad thing and Davey seems to encourage it — but even this lacks evidence to show that it is true. Sometimes the team plays that way — but it is doing so less and less (looking at seasons as a whole).

4. You say it is common knowledge that Moyes lost the dressing room over the Lescott incident. Says who? What is the evidence of this? No player has said anything in public. It certainly is not common knowledge and is highly unlikely to be true. How can anyone agree with your original statement?

5. You ask how long our top players will want to continue playing in Moyes’s gormless game plans? Well our turnover of players is very low. People rarely leave. The club is famous for its team spirit. The players get to play in Europe on a regular basis. We pay pretty competitive salaries. Small squad means lots of playing opportunities. Great fans. Grand old stadium. Playing under a manager where players tend to improve under his guidance (with a few exceptions such as Beattie and AJ — but far more have improved — Jags, Arteta, Pienaar, Lescott, Howard, Cahill to name a few). In short the evidence points to players liking playing under Moyes because his teams are the most successful outside the big spending 5.

Paul Joy
24   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:10:09

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Haha ha ha - "I hate being right"

You are taking the piss Tony.

Just like you hated being right about the Arsenal game - yeah right.

What you like to do Marshy is inflict your miserable diatribe on your fellow blues when they are feeling down enough after getting beat.

So what does that make you Tony? In my eyes it makes you worse than the RS "mates" who give us shit when we lose. It is all just so predictable.

However you seem to think you are the only fan who is dissatisfied with the football we play. You are not.

Some of what you say has merit and truth but only some of it.

I must take you to task over Jo — a high percentage of passes to Jo were to his feet on Sunday. But lets be honest the guy can trap it further than I could kick the ball. Brazilian touch? My arse.

When Jo plays in an away game it is a waste of a shirt - we played with 10 from the start. So on the issue of selection and substitutions David Moyes got it wrong and you were right Marshy!!

Now for your absolute beaut — Relegation battle — WTF are you taking for your misery? Time will obviously tell won’t it and your recent run of doom and gloom predictions will dribble away as they do every year.

I continually support your right to share your opinions with us - I just wish you would give it a break occasionally because you have become as boring as the RS fans who keep saying "This year, this year etc etc".
Alasdair Mackay
25   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:16:35

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The substitutions at the Fulham game were wrong. Moyes brought a midfielder on for a forward when we were chasing the game and a right back into central midfield when we needed another dimension.

The last time I felt that Moyes got it this wrong was Spurs at home a couple of seasons ago.

I felt that Fulham had recognised our main threat was coming from our left hand side. We had two defensive central midfielders and Osman was having a quiet game.

When Neville had to come off we could have brought Felli on through the middle or even Billy and moved Peanuts to the middle, where he is so effective for South Africa. Or Ossie to the middle and Peanuts to the right hand side. Had we still gone a goal down, Yak or Vaughan on up top, maybe both.

Having said all that, however, Moyes still gets it right far more often than he gets it wrong. His effect on the direction of the club over the last seven years has been phenominal and I find it amazing that anyone can think he is not worth sticking with.

Finally, Tony, I am not going to speculate about whether Moyes has lost the dressing room over the Lescott affair. I am confident, however, that if he got it back after the contract debacle last season, he can regain the players’ confidence this time. With Tottenham and City being so much stronger 5th is going to be difficult this season, but we have a genuine shot at the Europa Cup and I am sure all Evertonains would be happy with a top 6 finish and a run to at least the semis in Europe. Even you Tony?
Dennis Stevens
26   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:33:30

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David Ellis - I have to say, you must be the delusional one if you honestly believe our style of play has improved season on season.

I have no idea whether it’s due to Moyes specifying that he wants his team to play this way, or whether he is unable to get the team to perform as he wishes them to, but the evidence is there on the park week after week.

Apart from a handful of matches where we seem to get the ball down & show we have players capable of playing football properly, each season is largely made up of poor football. It’s only right to criticise Moyes for this as it’s his job to select the players & train them to play as he wishes them to. One way or another it doesn’t seem to be resulting in the quality of football we associate with Everton.

Tony Marsh
27   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:36:52

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Paul Joy most of the match-going Scouse Liverpool fans who I know dont even bother to have a pop at Evertonians any more. They just laugh at us when we are on TV and snigger when Kirkby is mentioned but don't think for a minute they take us serious as a football team.

You are giving us too much credit to think any of the top sides care about what goes on here at EFC. Get this, we are so far behind the likes of Liverpool, the Mancs and Chelsea, we don't even register on their radars.

You make yourself look foolish by making these comments.
Ciarán McGlone
28   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:40:16

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Moyes made some serious errors of judgement on Sunday... Errors of judgement that he’ll likely repeat again.

That’s the main problem... not the fact that he made mistakes, the fact that he’ll repeat them and not learn from them — like he’s been doing for several years...

Players like Rodwell will not learn anything playing alongside full backs in midfield... and players of Osman’s and Neville’s quality will not result in consistently good passing football...

My god, we don’t half need Arteta back... but then again we knew that central playmaker position was crucial in May... and did fuck all about it.
David Ellis
29   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:43:16

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In order to minimise hoofball, I hope that we bring in Osman as the creative central midfielder to hold the fort until Arteta is fit. This is the role he played so well a couple of seasons ago with Carsley in the DM position. In the absence of Neville then Heitinga or Rodwell will need to play the DM role.

The other alternative is to use Pienaar in the central creative midfield role. Either way the arrival of Bilyaletdinov to take one of the flanks means these are now options we did not have last season.

I do not think Fellaini or Cahill are the best options for the creative central midfield role — and I do hope we avoid a Rodwell/Heitinger pairing. This will mean that Hibbert stays in the team and also mean we may lack the creativity and control to play on the deck — although I have not really seen Heitinga play so may be doing him a disservice (but he is a defender by trade).
Dave Wilson
30   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:32:45

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Everytime we get beat, you're on blaming your favourite whipping boys.
In case it escaped your notice, once again, ONCE A-FUCKEN-GAIN, the goals we conceded came in from the left.

We have a goalie who doesn't seem capable of stopping anything from outside the box, a centre-half with the concentration of a goldfish, a left-back who can't stop a cross coming in, a midfield that cant string two passes together, and three permanently injured strikers.

The opposition team talk must go something like. "listen boys, it’s Everton today, nothing silly, keep a decent shape and the Cahill, Neville, Jo and the center backs will give you the ball all afternoon".

How the fuck can Hibbert be blamed and Baines get off scot free?Your obsession with the whipping boys is blinding you to the truth, trust me T Hibbert is the very least of our problems.

Jay Woods
31   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:48:30

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I agree with Tony on this as the facts are undeniable. Moyes’s hateful 4-5-1 setup is seriously old hat now and will get us nowhere near a trophy win any time soon (the FA Cup final was a supine and tactically insane display that I submit as proof of the point).

Also, what is it with this "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to signings? Can’t we at the very least have a proper central midfield playmaker and / or a dedicated right-sided midfielder? I’d rather have a formidable first 11 than a bland 22.
David Ellis
32   Posted 15/09/2009 at 10:49:16

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Dennis Stevens - I am looking at it over the course of the whole season.

Our style of play in 2004-05 when we finished 4th was very limited — especially once Gravesen left in January 05.

The following season, 05-06 we had a terrible start and ended up finishing 11th the football was no better, but probably no worse than the season before.

In 06-07 we finished in the top 8 — and things were definitely improving.

In 07-08 we had a very good purple patch in the autumn and played some very neat stuff — including putting 7 past Sunderland. Squad size and Euro campaign lead to exhaustion and tailing off at the end of the season.

In 08-09 we had a slow start but once we had Arteta in the middle we played decent stuff — and managed to continue doing so even without Arteta — right up to the end of the season.

I do not think it is delusional to say this is progress — it clearly is. The personnel in the team has also demonstrably improved over that period.

This season is not going well — but progress has to be measured over a longer period than 4/6 games.
Dennis Stevens
33   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:22:28

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David Ellis - we’re not talking about half a dozen games, but nearly 8 years. Your attempt to re-write history to make it look like progress really is delusional. Every season we seem to start slowly, gradually start to look like a team & start grinding out results, then hit an all too brief purple patch where we get the ball down & play football before a return to grinding out results leading into an end of season fade. Repeating pretty much the same pattern each season is not progress — no matter how you dress it up.
Antony Matthews
34   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:10:06

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The excuses are already starting to appear. Injuries, the Lescott saga, etc.... Total bollocks! The whole team should be ashamed of picking their wages up for that performance.

Even Howard couldnt kick the ball straight down the pitch. How many times did it go straight out for a throw in? As for Jo, he couldn't trap wind. Him and Cahill were offside more than onside. Do they practice this in training? Even the "goal" was offside ffs.

And why is it they try to get the ball forward quickly only when we are losing? We only seem to show urgency when we are losing and it's pissing me off that people say it's to do with Moyes. The players have to take responsibility. He doesnt instruct them to get offside or not to put tackles in.

Moyes comes up short in tactics if anything, ie, playing with one striker and his substitutions, but I'm sure if he could have substituted the lot of them he would have!

I don't think we will be near relegation but I also think we wont be near the top... unless we start playing football. Maybe sideways Neville getting injured could mean it will force him to change his tactics... but don't hold your breath.

John Burgess
35   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:26:27

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Your posts are so predictable after a defeat, it's embarrassing Tony. It was only a few months a go that Mr Moyes was doing a great job considering he was working under Kenwright! There's nothing worse than a fickle fan, Tony, and you take the biscuit, pal!!
Martin Mason
36   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:41:45

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Tony says that which nobody wants to hear but, in terms of strategy and the football that Everton serve up, it has been generally dreadful, even allowing for some good strong league positions. I also agree that it looks as though his good cheap buys and great motivation may now be lost as a result of the Lescott affair. I also believe that sides now know that if they go at us they’ll beat us.
David Ellis
37   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:38:51

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Dennis,
So you are seriously suggesting that there has been no progress under Moyes? Last season we got our highest ever points total in the PL. Nor did we fade at the end of the season which blows a hole in your "repeated pattern" theory. It is quite wrong to deduce that each season under Moyes has been the same. The evidence clearly shows that they have not and that we have improved. Theories really do need to fit the facts.

I can produce statistics that show that results have improved. As to views on style of play, this is harder to show... but you have to be looking through glass half empty specs to say our style has got worse over 8 years (considering how awful it was in the first place).
Ciarán McGlone
38   Posted 15/09/2009 at 11:59:59

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’Nor did we fade at the end of the season’

--------------

Ahem.... I think you’ll find the football we played at the end of last season was atrocious... some of the poorest stuff in years...

Same players now — same quality of football.
John Delahunt
39   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:16:41

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Tony - My brother & I were fortunate to see EFC in all their glory from 1960s onwards. My late father took me to Bolton away in 1960 aged five. My Brother has always been of the opinion from day one about David Moyes i.e. where is the football?

Some of the fans posting on here will not have seen the Alex Young era the Ball, Harvey, Kendall years. I did home & away most weeks & I feel now both my brother & I were spoilt with the game played in such away, it was a bonus if we won trophies as we did.

The Hoofball has been there for long periods under DM; my brother says he is a Champoinship manager at best! I agree with your post 100% as even at 1-0 at half-time my son stated, "Fulham are so poor, you will win easily!"

I stated, "No, watch us come out for the 2nd half & defend deep & if they score we will get beat 2-1!"

He asked afterwards, "Why did you not put a bet on, I was so annoyed that DM is so predictable that a poor side & they were playing so poor were able to beat us!"

If a top four side had played Fulham it woud have been 4-0 at half time. It is easy: pass & move keep the ball on the floor aprt from crossing it in the air from a wide position. Also play the players in the right positions — do not sign players for millions & leave them on the bench!

I feel DM now he has signed his £65k per week contract is too comfortable & his relationship with his Chairman far too cosy!
John Burgess
40   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:32:42

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Ciaran — "atrocious"!?!?! We won 3 of our last 4 prem games and drew with Spurs. Get real!!
Adam Bennett
41   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:39:00

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I can understand people who are pissed off with the quality of football under Moyes, after all we are supposed to be the School of Science.

However, how many other managers out there could get together a team on a net spending of ziltch, who would play wonderful attractive two-touch attacking football? Wenger for one (who for me is a fucking genius) and err…. I think that might be it.

So, for me, if you want to have a go at someone for the fact we don’t have many gifted ball players (Arteta & Pienaar excluded), or play wonderful football, have a go at the Board for not having the money to be able to buy truly gifted ball-players.
Ciarán McGlone
42   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:45:43

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"Ciaran — "atrocious"!?!?! We won 3 of our last 4 prem games and drew with Spurs. Get real!!!"


No we didn’t, we beat West Ham and Fulham - that’s 2 out of 4, not 3...
Why don’t you get real... or even get right.

The majority of our football at the end of last season was painful to watch... and we are continuning the trend with effectively the same players...
David Alexander
43   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:45:02

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Osman and Hibbert both played well last time out so why then drop them for Fulham — that sends the wrong message both to those two players and to the new guys who might think they have a guaranteed place in the team.

More of a concern for me is the continual playing of Neville and Rodwell in center midfield, they are both essentialy defensive choices and naturally sit back and so we don't pressure teams in the middle of the park enough. What's annoying is we had the same problem at the end of last season and we fixed it by playing Cahil and Neville together. Why we reverted to the two defensive players I don't know.
Johnny Hughes
44   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:44:33

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David Ellis: Delusional - (to be guilty of) false hope, or belief. Dream, fantasy, hallucination, illusion, mirage, misconception, mistake, self-deception.

I hardly think that Tony Marsh is guilty of any of the above David. If I was you I would be wondering if the cap fits a little nearer to home!

Tony Marsh: You are wasting your time mate, these guys just don’t get it and never will. Mediocrity reigns at GP these days and these chumps just lap it up. To think that Colin Harvey got fired for finishing 6th —something that we are now aspiring to; sums it up for me.

Ciarán McGlone
45   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:59:04

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Osman hasn’t played well sincelast season's Fulham game...and that was the only game he played well in that entire season...

Talk about revisionism!

He deserved to be dropped. I agree on Hibbert though... Bily, Fellaini and Gosling in for Thursday... Osman and Neville out...
Dennis Stevens
46   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:49:59

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David, I’m seriously suggesting the style of football we generally play under Moyes has not improved.

My description of a normal season under Moyes was obviously a generalisation — I’m not claiming that every season is quite identical! So of course you can find specific exceptions to my general points. Having a Cup Final place to play for was something of an exception for our players, for example.

But more than the statistics, what we’re really talking about here is the style of play & whether supporters are happy with Moyes's style and whether that style can ultimately be successful. I don’t think our style has deteriorated under Moyes, and haven’t suggested that, but it just isn’t progressing.

The most frustrating part is that for a few matches each season we get a glimpse of what might be, when it all seems to click and the team plays good football — so we know these players are capable of it. Why can that level of performance not be sustained? One can not really blame the players, as they are all Moyes’s players: it really is down to him to get it right and after all this time I’m starting to doubt he will, sadly.

Ian Edwards
47   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:07:34

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Well said Tony. I agree with everything you said except the comments about Jo.

He is a complete waste of space.
Dave Lynch
48   Posted 15/09/2009 at 12:57:33

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Patty and Ella.
Why is it you think Moyes is beyond reproach? All you seem to do is come on here and slag someone off for posting what they believe. Try being constructive for a change. Comments like. "Good job we don’t have Southgate" contribute nothing to the debate. I’ll start you off with this.

Moyes has been with us for 8 years. In all that time we have seen proper football played on a handfull of occasions at best. You know the type? Passing to a player in a shirt the same colour as you are wearing. The rest has been hoofball.

We have suffered our heaviest and most humiliating defeats under this manager. We now also hold the dubious record of heaviest opening day defeat in the history of the prem.

We have won nothing and have not even come close to it. Don’t count the cup final cos we where mullered and never in the game, even when we went one up.

Other achievements include: Lowest goals scored, Lowest points total for a team avoiding relegation......... The list goes on.

We are now stable, as every Moyes apologist will bleat on about. So job done, Davey boy. Now piss off and take your amateur football tactics to the lower leagues where they belong.

Ciarán McGlone
49   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:16:54

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Good luck with that one Dave....
Dave Thompson
50   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:14:52

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Ciaran, we also beat Sunderland away. A game I went to, and we were far from atrocious.

That’s 3 wins out of 4 prem games at the end of last season, but you state it was, ’some of the poorest stuff in years’.
Chris Perry
51   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:25:24

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I am absoloutey Gobsmacked how can anyone come on here and defend the shite that has been dished out for the last 4 prem games. The standard of football is non-existent. Too many people accept "not even mediocracy" with regard to Everton FC. We never learn from our mistakes as we did the same last year and the year before.
Gareth Atkinson
52   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:32:15

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Fuck me, predicting that Osman and Hibbert would play and if we were losing the subs would be made too late hardly makes you Derren Brown, seeing as that's what happens every game, Tony. Everyone knows things have gone stale and it needs freshening up, what we don’t need is you telling us what we already know but coming across like you're some master tactician when delivering these posts.

By the way, any chance of telling us this weeks lottery numbers?
John Delahunt
53   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:39:20

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Ian Edwards quote "Well said Tony. I agree with everything you said except the comments about Jo. He is a complete waste of space".

Ian, we could have Drogba up there on his own with that style of hoofball and he would be a waste of space!

What Tony has stated is spot on, there is no attempt to play through the midfield = HOOFBALL!

I have seen some great EFC sides and some poor ones, and at the moment we are poor, as a club in general on the field and off it & that's a fact we have to live with at the moment... sad, but true.

We may recover, but playing the game of football on the ground as to be the start of things to come! The Europa Leagues may be a chance to readress our footballing ways as teams may pass us off the park!
Barry Thompson
54   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:44:54

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Ciaran
Now you see why some of these people just won’t get it.
Dave Thompson
55   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:47:00

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Ah, threats of violence. No national stereotypes there...

How many of those games at the end of last season did you see? And when I say "see", I mean attend. Watching with one eye on a PC monitor whilst the other eye is engaged on typing a sardonic response for these pages doesn’t count.
Ciarán McGlone
56   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:58:49

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So...when you say ’see’...you don’t actually mean ’see’...

Oh I see...I mean, don’t see...

Colin Potter
57   Posted 15/09/2009 at 13:39:07

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100% right Dave Lynch
Dave Thompson
58   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:05:35

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So you see?

At the end of last season I was (insanely) confident that we would put up a good fight and maybe win the cup because of our form.

But now with no speakable form to speak of, I am (insanely) confident that we will get 3 wins and a draw out of our next 4 prem games.

It’s all about being positive! (and a bit insane)
Dave Lynch
59   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:16:36

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Ciaran.
Thanks for the sentiment mate.
But luck does not come into it when facts are involved.
Moyes is a one dimensional loser. FACT !
Ciarán McGlone
60   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:17:16

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Again, I’ll point you towards the not so subtle difference between winning matches and the quality of football on display...

There was very little quality on show in the last third of the season...providing your opinion on a single sunderland match does not disprove that opinion...
Tim Lloyd
61   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:22:33

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Regrettably, there is no reason for a Pro Moyes man to be happy with Sunday.

I have to confess there are times when I get so frustrated. I know that neither Bily nor Johnny got a game during the International break but, they are better players than those they would replace AND our regular players too are hardly covering themselves with glory.

AEK Athens means a real hotch potch of a team. We have NO right back, Heitinga can’t play, Hibbert suspended and Capt Phil now out of action for... how long?

Bearing in mind that Bainesy and Pienaar are neither of them shining brightly, I can see our losing streak continuing.

Tony, you moan when things are reasonable. You can surely let yourself go after Thursday. Start now and recommend our best team. That I would be interested to read
Neil Pearse
62   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:34:37

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I think by now we can all see the same thing: Moyes is what he is. He is defensively minded and ultra cautious. Another Allardyce. Everyone back for corners, no-one allowed who doesn’t put a defensive shift in, maintaining shape, no risky substitutions, slowly blooding newcomers, covering the back four etc. etc.. Only when he has nearly all the squad fit is he willing to play a little bit more expansively.

It would be surprising now if he really changed. I confess to being in two minds on this. On the one hand, it is extremely frustrating and often tedious to watch. On the other, there are the results. With a pretty average squad he has done better than average. It is naive to suppose that the results have nothing to do with the tactics - we have eaked out odd goal wins for years based on defensive solidity and team spirit.

Despite screaming frustrations (please no more two defensive midfielders!), I would stick with Moyes given our current squad. However, if we ever got the opportunity to spend some real money, I doubt he is the man for the job.
Ciarán McGlone
63   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:46:19

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My god..Neil...

Cathartic!

I agree with every word.
David Judic
64   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:24:24

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I laugh when I read comments about our style of football under Moyes, and even more when Moyes is accused of being crap. What bizarre memories some of you have.
With the resources we have, are we seriously going to be able to attract the quality of players i.e. pace, skill, passing, tackling, tracking etc... that fill the ranks of Barcelona, or Arsenal, or even Aston VIlla? No.
Is this Moyes fault? No. He actually has brought some wonderfully skillful players that are the envy of teams, for very little. He has moulded the characteristics of a long term winning team, mixing the required skills as best possible, as he can’t get every player to have every skill. He’s bought young to build for the future.
Is it Kenwright? No. Do I believe Kenwright has tried his best to secure investment? No. Would I want to be Man City? No.
So without resources we either play effective football and try to challenge - which Moyes has generally tried to do, or we play pretty football like West Brom or Newcastle and erm..... go down. Lots of the comments around style remind me of Newcastle’s deluded fans last year talking about how they’d rather lose 4-3 than win 1-0...
Have Everton got problems? Of course we have but we haven’t got the money to fix them so manage as best possible. Moyes knows about Hibbert - hence why he tried to sign a right-back. Heitinger for all we know will take a month to settle to the pace - Moyes would be foolish to put him straight in. Billy - again, will take time to adjust. Particularly with a creative player you can’t put him in and ruin his confidence - you need to build the lad. As for Jo. We all knew last season Jo was limited - hence why he was loaned again. Moyes clearly prefers Saha - who has looked fantastic in the opening games. The Yak fullly fit be preferred too.
So what would I like to see then???? Football played with style??? Dream on - I’d rather win than play nice.
Tactics? We all know he struggles to change a team mid way through a game.... but so does Benitez and Ferguson, in fact most managers - and they have players on the bench! Moyes sets a team up generally better than any Manager in the league - hence why we generally win. So is he above criticism? No. I don’t see why Hibbert wasn’t hauled off, or why Gosling not given a shot. I didn’t understand taking off the frankly pants Jo for Feleini. I don’t understand the 2 holding players. But.... in general I still stand behind the ethos of Moyes team. The season is long, so rather than castigate a Manager who has dragged us from the depths, and continues to gain us respect, points and push us into a position to challenge for cups, let’s support a good team that has made a poor start to the season.



We do not play hoofball.
We do not play total football.
We’re somewhere in between - its generally called effective football.
Neil Pearse
65   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:49:07

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My brother Ciaran! I’ve never seen Moyes any differently. I don’t generally waste my breathe on urging him to become different because leopards don’t usually change their spots. I also fear (this is where we may part compnay again...) that an attack-minded Moyes would really see us tumbling down the table in disarray. Best for him to stick at what he knows how to do. (Apart from the two defensive midfielders of course....) I’m hoping he’s spending all week drilling the defence again.

By the way, with a few days passing, Fulham was of course a pretty typical Moyes day. But for one defensive error (and Fellaini being a little unlucky up the other end), we would have got a typical Moyes draw or even a narrow and rather lucky win. He is nothing if not a percentages manager.
Dave Wilson
66   Posted 15/09/2009 at 14:48:59

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We were actually no better at the SOL last season, than we were at Fulham and we were playing against a team in free fall. also we couldnt string two passes together at wembley.
To say we finished the season strongly is just plain wrong, but it explains all that unrealistic early season optimism felt in some quarters
Dave Wilson
67   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:00:02

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David

You’re forgetting one important point, football, at least professional football is meant to be an entertainment, we all pays our money to see players do things with a ball that we cant.
Half the Young lads posting here could have played for Everton on Sunday and given a decent level of fitness, I’m not sure they would have looked out of place.

That is unacceptable
Patty Beesley
68   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:06:05

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DAVE LYNCH: I do not think that David Moyes is beyond reproach nor that the sun shines out of his backside, but I do think he is a stable, honest good Manager. who gives his all. Everyone, as you state, is entitled to their opinion and that is mine. However, it is the way that that opinion is stated, and put across to other Evertonians who frequent this web-site, that matters. Tony Marsh appears to have always have had a personal vendetta against David Moyes and is particularly insulting where he is concerned. Its a pity that Tony Marsh can’t say his bile to Davey’s face instead of behind his back.

DAVID TUDIC.... Well said. Someone one who speaks with a bit of common sense for a change.
Ciarán McGlone
69   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:34:24

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For those who think players cannot be played subsequent to a transfer...as they need time to adjust..

Can you please explain to me how these players acquire that adjustment?

Because ’common sense’ dictates they need to be played in order to 1) assess how far off the pace they are...and 2) to get up to that pace...
Neil Pearse
70   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:55:56

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Ah Ciaran, and we were doing so well!

I had less of a problem with Moyes not playing Heitinga and Bily from the off. The argument is that they need to get up to speed (if that is not the wrong word) with the ’Moyes style of play’. That take training, not just matches.

You could see it with Heitinga when he came on - the poor man looked absolutely lost, not sure where to go and what his colleagues expected of him. He will be better next time.

Of course, it partly comes down to the same points we have been discussing about Moyes. He does not play ten individuals in loose formation - he plays a very tight system indeed. Hence the difficulty introducing new players.
Dave Lynch
71   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:40:32

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Patty.
Stable honest and good does not cut it !
Succesfull does it for me.
If stable honest and good does it for you then i pity you to be honest, because you will always be happy with mediocrity.
But as Mr Judic stated. " He has bought some wonderfully skillfull players who are the envy of other teams."
Then why for christ sake doesn’t he give them the chance to display all those wonderfull skills.
The man is mediocre. Full stop ! Accept the fact that while he is at the club, we will remain static in terms of the style of football we play.
Because as you stated. Mr Judic speaks sense and as Mr Judic stated. He has bought some wondefully..........
So something is wrong somewhere.
I will be honest without trying to be insultive.
People who come on here and state that for all intent and purpose we should be happy, because of ? Well you know the reasons they spout.
Piss me off big time. If you want the best for the club, then you must want it to move forward. The tone of your posts indicate otherwise.
Again. Moyes is a one dimensional loser.
He has proven that over the last eight years by his style of play.
David Holroyd
72   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:46:26

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WOW thats stirred a few people up tony. We are in a much better position now then when Moyes came but as people have stated it is 8 years the football is still poor . Blame the board ? YES . For not backing the manager, the last 2 seasons we had a chance to break into the top 4 i dont think we will make the top 8 this season. The team just dont look up for it,nor the manager. The season starts in mid August not the start of October
David Judic
73   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:58:28

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Ciaran, if I change my job, whilst the expectation is high (hence why they recruited me), I’m not expected to perform at my peak until say 6 months into a role. Why? Because whilst I have skills, I need to time to adjust those skills to a different envirnoment. So a footballer needs to adjust his pace. Learn the capabilities and style of teammates. Change type of fitness. Learn to communicate. Without these adjustments the player will be a headless chicken, fans will quickly get on their back and they will lose confidence and never show their true capabilities. Some players adjust quicker than others, and this often depends on background hence Distan - same league, lots of experience of Everton, prob knows half the team from when living near Manchester, has settled far better than say Billy will.
David Judic
74   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:58:28

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Ciaran, if I change my job, whilst the expectation is high (hence why they recruited me), I’m not expected to perform at my peak until say 6 months into a role. Why? Because whilst I have skills, I need to time to adjust those skills to a different envirnoment. So a footballer needs to adjust his pace. Learn the capabilities and style of teammates. Change type of fitness. Learn to communicate. Without these adjustments the player will be a headless chicken, fans will quickly get on their back and they will lose confidence and never show their true capabilities. Some players adjust quicker than others, and this often depends on background hence Distan - same league, lots of experience of Everton, prob knows half the team from when living near Manchester, has settled far better than say Billy will.
Neil Pearse
75   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:59:56

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By the way, let me pile in on the side of those who said that Hibbert had a much better game then Baines on Sunday - both defensively and offensively. Doesn’t mean he is great, but in no way was he the worst on Sunday. Osman and Jo easily get a joint award of that honour.
David Hallwood
76   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:50:19

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To all of the posters that are arguing the toss about the end of last season, our last 10 games were:

Everton 3 – 1 Stoke City
Portsmouth 2 – 1 Everton
Everton 4 – 0 Wigan
Aston Villa 3 – 3 Everton
Chelsea 0 – 0 Everton
Everton 1 – 2 Manchester City
Sunderland 0-2 Everton
Everton 0 - 0Tottenham Hotspur
Everton 3 – 1 West Ham
Fulham 0 – 2 Everton
Not a bad return....
I usually don’t agree with our Tony TW’s answer to Leonard Cohen, but he’s spot on about Jo. We’ll never know if he’s good bad or shite the role DM asking him to play. He looks like a confidence player and having to farm 80yd hoofs out of the air, he must think he’s joined a basketball team. I know football fans are a fickle bunch, but really that must improve, you can understand why we are labled as boring; seriously if you wasn’t a blue how long would you have watched that shite for on Sunday
Ella Thornton
77   Posted 15/09/2009 at 15:54:24

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I don’t think DM is above criticism either. I was as mystified and dismayed by the substitutions on Sunday as everyone else. Hopefully he is rethinking his strategies and if all this anger is typical of the general Evertonian feeling, perhaps it will filter through and have some effect. I haven’t changed my opinion that he’s been great for us and will turn this around.

If not, I’m not going to get high blood pressure and an incipient heart attack because of it.

Ciarán McGlone
78   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:03:12

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Some strange analogies..but no convincing answers..

Firstly Heitinga’s a defender..not a midfielder - so he was out of position..

Secondly, if you change your job you may need time to adjust to that environment - but you don’t do that by sitting at home on your sofa...

So can anyone answer the question I actually asked...How do the players adjust to the game without playing?

..and a couple of hours pissing about with the yak on a weekday is NOT a sufficient answer...
Ciarán McGlone
79   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:08:57

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To all of the posters that are arguing the toss about the end of last season, our last 10 games were:
------------------------

We were discussing the performances..not the results. We rode our luck in lots of those games...

As for Jo....If a player cannot hit the target from six yards and constantly losses possession with the ball at his feet - I think it’s pretty nailed on that he’s not a good striker...

And I don’t include any analysis of what he does when the balls humped forward to him - only when he gets it at his feet...

He’s simply not a very good player.
Franny Porter
80   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:42:24

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I dont usually agree with everything Tony says, or the way he says it, and I WAS a Moyes fan.

Reading this though, I have to say, 100% on the money Tony. The way we destroy strikers is unbelievable, and so disheartening to watch.

I now think that the people coming out with comments such as "don't watch Everton, Tony" or "rantings of a madman", are really just embarassing themselves. This is the SKY generation rearing its ugly head methinks.

People have to accept, that sometimes, the truth fucking hurts....
Matthew Tait
81   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:32:01

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Ciaran - come on, be reasonable.

Heitinga has played at defensive midfield plenty of times before, and in fact he should have the skills to excel there. The modern holding midfield position is essentially an advanced, more skilled and mobile centre-back. This is hardly Steve Watson playing as a striker.

Also, I’m struggling to decide whether you’re actually serious in your comment about adjusting to the game without playing, or if you’re just trolling here. You do know that footballers spend a huge amount of time on and off the training field studying tactics? You’re seriously comparing 90 mins of football on Saturday vs weeks of intense drills and study, in terms of their value integrating into a side? Seriously?

These two guys arrived midweek, will be lucky to know their squadmates names and certainly won’t know Moyes’s systems (cue snarky jokes - "what systems? hoof the ball away every chance you get?" etc). I can’t believe anyone seriously expected Moyes to start either of them, yet on comes Tony Marsh trying to claim some sort of credit for predicting it! Hilarious.

The rest of Tony’s post as usual doesn’t really merit comment, but one question - to those who are now saying that Moyes is as a person and manager unable to put out a team that does anything but play defense-minded hoofball - what were we doing last year until Arteta got injured then? Granted Moyes can be faulted for building a side that was reliant on one player to play attractive football, but the short memories of some people are a bit hard to credit.
Rupert Sullivan
82   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:47:22

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David Judic - I agree that players need time to ’bed in’ as it were, but surely this is just another point against this situation since EFC - as usual - waited until the season was 2 matches old before bringing these people in!!!!
Brian Waring
83   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:35:40

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Tony, the problem is mate, that while we have fans who never take off their blue tinted specs, Moyes is always going to be beyond any criticism in their eyes.

I watched time of our lives last night on Sky, they had Andy Gray, Sheedy and Sharpy. It was great listening to them talk about the good times, good times that I will never see again in my lifetime under Moyes.
Ciarán McGlone
84   Posted 15/09/2009 at 17:01:37

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Mathew...

How do they adjust to the pace of the English game without playing?

You still haven’t attempted to answer...

And the contrary argument so far has been adjustment to the pace...not tactics, because quite frankly there are none - and you were right to expect sarcasm on that front.



P.S In regards to your justification of Heitinga being played out of position...as it is primarily a defensive position...are you suggesting that Hibbert could play defensive midfield?

Play people in their natural positions...it’s not rocket science!

Eugene Ruane
85   Posted 15/09/2009 at 16:46:27

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More or less agree with all of that Tony (Marsh).

As a team, we’ve absolutely no guile, inventiveness or imagination and that is down to one man.

I’m Just sick of the whole...... um...predictability of it all.

I mean if we’re at home, 2-0 up at half time, I expect (deffo!) for us to be pinned back in the second-half, to concede one, then at best be made to sweat until the 9th minute of injury (or ’added’) time for the result.




David Duffy
86   Posted 15/09/2009 at 01:01:40

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There's something I really can't seem to understand.

Our squad is thin, we spend £20M on players... and yet not use them? Need time to adjust? So why didn't we sign players earlier? Or do the scouting earlier? It seems like the first few games are not important to Moyes, but aren't the points important? If they are not, it means the season has not started.

We are always a few weeks late. This is so damn frustrating. We are not Chelsea, who have enough depth to let new players adapt. We are the Toffees, constantly and still looking for investors. We need to gamble sometimes, we need to force players to adapt. Placing Heitinga out of position can make him adapt? Playing and yet losing can gain confidence? Bily can gain confidence by sitting on the bench?

Bottomline, how important is the first 5 games of the season, which is equivalent to 15 points.

It doesn't make any damn sense. What's going on, Moyes...

Dennis Stevens
87   Posted 15/09/2009 at 17:12:55

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David Judic, you seem to think that unless we can afford to buy the quality of players found at "Barcelona, or Arsenal, or even Aston VIlla"(?) then it’s unreasonable for Evertonians to expect their team to play football. Apparently these clubs can afford players who actually posess these assets :"pace, skill, passing, tackling, tracking etc.." - all things I foolishly considered basics for a top-flight professional footballer.
You then contradict yourself somewhat by saying that, despite a lack of money & resorces Moyes has actually signed some wonderfully skilfull players - presumably we can’t actually afford to pay them well enough to display those skills consistently.
You then say there is a choice of effective football & pretty football, that we can either have victory or entertainment. You may prefer success at any price but then - why support Everton?
I think you’re wrong all ’round. It doesn’t cost the earth to sign competent footballers. We have already done so & every season we see the evidence of this - but for only a handful of matches. Not being displaying :"pace, skill, passing, tackling, tracking etc..." is NOT effective football, doing so is both effective and "pretty" - it doesn’t have to be at the expense of defensive solidity, so why don’t Moyes’ teams do this consistently, even though we lnow the ability is there? A lack of money is no excuse for playing such a limited style of football. Whilst you may consider it effective, I will be very pleasantly surprised if Moyes leads us to any silverware utilising this approach to the game.
Timmy Mongiat
88   Posted 15/09/2009 at 17:23:12

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Yet another pathetic post...
Firstly anyone who thinks we havent progressed under Moyes and who thinks Moyes isnt a good manager needs their head checking. When he took over we looked set for relegation with an awful squad, now we are a solid european team and have constantly finished above our rivals despite spending considerably less money. And for all the idiots that think we should get fourth. Wake up! We dont have the money! How we have finished as high up as we have the last few seasons is nothing short of a miracle.

Furthermore Moyes was hardly going to make big changes and bring heitinga and Billy in, considering theyve been on international duty and barely trained! Believe it or not, In premiership football, quite possibly the best league of football in the world, It’s not as easy as buying a player and expecting him to fit into a different system when theyve been in the country for less than a week.


Heitinga can play defensive midfield! he has for ajax and athletico! He was not played out of position! How can so many people not know that?!
Matthew Tait
89   Posted 15/09/2009 at 17:20:11

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Ciaran...

Facetious comments aside - whether they’re the right ones is open to debate, but the fact is we have tactics and the new boys don’t know them. Pace of the game is another legitimate reason, sure. Yes that comes through matchday experience, but what do you think they’re doing in training all week? Playing a bit of friendly five-a-side? You don’t think that Premier League training might be more intense, and focused on Premier League requirments (including speed on the ball etc), than traning in other leagues?

So as simply as possible - yes of course matchday experience is vital for a player to gell into a team, but it needs to be on a base of traning with the side. I really don’t think that’s controversial.

Re Heitinga as a defensive midfielder - no, Hibbert probably couldn’t play there. He’s a good tackler but he’s got no experience reading the game from the centre of the park, and he’s not nearly skilled enough with the ball to even do the relatively simple short distribution needed from that sort of player.

Obviously we haven’t seen enough of Heitinga yet to know how he might fit into that role in the Premier League, and we might never do - Neville, Rodwell and theoretically Fellaini play that role, and Heitinga will likely be needed at centreback anyway. All I’m saying is don’t write him off as playing ’out of position’ - based on his pedigree there’s every reason to think he could be a very good defensive midfielder.
Brian Waring
90   Posted 15/09/2009 at 18:21:21

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Timmy, I’m sure he has already stated that he can play at right back, but his prefered position is centre-half.So, if they are his prefered positions, he must be being played out of position as a midfielder.
Ryan Holroyd
91   Posted 15/09/2009 at 18:37:24

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I’d like to ask peoples opinions of Baines? For me, he’s a lot worse defender than HIbbert and has been worse than Hibbert this season. Baines’ tacking, crossing, corner kick taking, free kick taking is very suspect.

I’d get Osman out the side ASAP tho. He’s been rubbish for last season and this season. Been played out of position doesn’t help.... He’s too slow to be wide midfielder.

I think we need a whole change around in the club. Removing Moyes wouldn’t get rid of the biggest problem we have.

KENWRIGHT OUT.
Barry Bragg
92   Posted 15/09/2009 at 18:55:16

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Tony there are many things more predictable than Everton and you are firmly top of the list.

Maybe Moyes will start to change his spots when you do. Quite what Hibbert and Osman had to do with the defeat escapes me as there were many worse performances on display.

Methinks you are getting a little obsessed with this pair. Completely over the top response from you again but hey you make me laugh so much it’s worth reading tthrough all your drivel to get to the punchline.

Keep up the good work agent Marsh..
Martin Mason
93   Posted 15/09/2009 at 19:02:19

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Everybody has a valid opinion and some fair points have been raised on both side. I think one thing that we have to realise is that this isn’t 1960-1970 when we were the school of science and played football like nobody else. It isn’t 1986 when we had possibly the best Everton side ever with the world at our feet. This is 2009 and we are now a "small" club competing with the other 16 small clubs to survive in the Premiership. We don’t play good passing football not because of Moyes but because in general we don’t have players who can pass accurately over 5 meteres. We can’t buy good replacements because we can’t afford and they don’t want to come to a small club. If we tried to play football we would go down 4 or 5 nil to any top 4 side. If we got rid of Moyes I would bet on relegation, he is a good championship manager overperforming with a championship standard team (but wasn’t Kendall in the 80’s?). Who could step in and do better than Moyes with what is in reality a very, very weak squad? Maybe we just have to accept that as Benitez said we are a small club that can only get results by being negative in the extreme. don’t blame Moyes and don’t blame the players, I believe that they are doing as well as they can within their own limitations. The fault is 100% with successive boards for allowing Everton to fall from astride the footballing globe to the deserving butt of Kopite jokes. It is 100% the Board’s responsibility to ensure that we are financed to compete at the highest level and they have failed miserably. What team could be a better buy than Everton especially at a historical low but with such a great support base. I don’t want to see Everton as a foreign franchise club like the top three but the alternative is not to be competitive. the new rules on squad size could help Everton but it could destroy us. I see nothing positive on the horizon. In the worst case I see a string of bad results, a catastrophic January transfer window, Moyes walking and relegation this year.
One very depressing explanation for Moyes not playing Bily or Heitinga is that having seen them in hard training he has realised that he has bought two pups. I have heard such depressingly bad things about Heitinga.
Ged Dwyer
94   Posted 15/09/2009 at 19:42:37

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Tony - What I find totally amazing is that some of the clowns who reply to you think you are too radical and over the top. It just shows how our ambition has been lowered and lowered over the last 20 years, due to bad management. Twenty years ago nearly everyone would be calling for Moyes to go. Two bad pre seasons on the run when we were not ready for the season to start and yet another hammering.to get over. 6-1 for Christ sake, and at home (hardly a good advert for investors). I never thought I’d see this kind of shit happen at Goodison and there is hardly a murmur about the idiot who caused it. Instead you get the same old excuses, no money, Lescotts fault, we’re punching above our weight, who would you get. The whole thing is bizarre.
What I’d love these clowns to answer is when would they want Moyes to go. When we get beat 8-1, 9-1, 10-1. Relegated? Where is the line. Because for me it’s now well past the line!
Dave Wilson
95   Posted 15/09/2009 at 19:45:22

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so While Adebayor, Bent and Defoe are running riot, Our boys have to be bed in ?

I’ve heard it all now
Brendan McLaughlin
96   Posted 15/09/2009 at 20:05:18

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@ Ged Dwyer
For the past few seasons Tony has predicted either at best mid-table mediocrity or at worst, relegation. So the reason why most people treat his articles with less than the respect, you obviously believe he deserves, is because he was wrong last season, he was wrong the season before, he was wrong … you get my drift.

Lets face it he’s claiming – 3 games in – that we are in a relegation battle, Yeah exactly the same way Hull were battling to be Premiership Champions after the first couple of games of last season!!
Howard Don
97   Posted 15/09/2009 at 20:06:08

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Tony go to the dictionary and look up the meaning of perspective, you need to learn some mate.

Yes it was crap second half on Saturday, yes I hated the hoofball we descended into. But for goodness sake think where this man Moyes has brought us to from being perennial relegation battlers.

First half wasn’t pretty but it was a good solid away performance, that if the players, yes the players, not Moyes, had maintained instead of practically inviting Fulham on to them in the second half, would have seen us take all three points.

Be careful what you wish for, amongst the sides who came to GP last year West Brom played some of the best open football, but went down as no-hopers.
Matthew Tait
98   Posted 15/09/2009 at 20:10:35

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Dave - there’s a pretty significant difference between bringing players from Russia and Spain into your squad vs bringing in players with years of premiership experience.

Besides that, Adebayor and Bent were signed in preseason, so got the benefit of training with the squad for a decent amount of time before playing - which is exactly what we’re talking about!
James Boden
99   Posted 15/09/2009 at 20:46:15

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Tony are you actually committing that awful sin of questioning the God of all football managers? And get the hint he plays Hibbert and Osman because they love this club so much blah blah blah.
Ps we can’t play good attractive football because if we dare to we will be relegated with record points.
SARCASM OF COURSE!
Ray Robinson
100   Posted 15/09/2009 at 21:11:34

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I’m a Moyes admirer but even I have to question why:

1. we constantly struggle to pass to feet
2. we rely on second phase football - i.e. try to get the ball forward in the air and then win the knockdowns
3. we regularly play players out of position
4. we have to give all players a "bedding in period"
5. we constantly pick certain players - e.g. Hibbert always comes back into the side as soon as he’s over an injury - why? Osman, Neville etc
6. we constantly leave signings late in the transfer windows
7. we usually start the season poorly (pre-season is nearly always against substandard opposition, meaning we’re not mentally sharp enough for the first game)
8. we usually only really play for one half
9. we rarely kill a game
10. we rarely come from behind (yes, I know Wigan!)

I could go on. My conclusion is that the team plays with a lack of confidence and a negativity that comes across from the manager.

So maybe, Tony Marsh’s comments are not that far of the mark after all when you strip his over-the-top delivery down to the bare bones.

I believe that generally Moyes does a good job with limited finances but I couldn’t see him managing a top 4 side where flair and individuality play bigger part in the team make-up. Could any of you?
Dave Roberts
101   Posted 15/09/2009 at 21:45:20

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What I always fail to understand about "fans" (oh yeah) like Tony, is why they keep posting whinges. If it’s been that bad for that long why don’t you just give up and go elsewhere? Most of us understand the financial situation the club is in, accept the constraints and just want to support it and see things improve - which they have steadily during Moyes period in charge. Anyone who ever managed any team of individuals understands how difficult it can be. Yes, Moyes makes mistakes and they are cruelly exposed but he’s got more right than wrong - a lot more. Commentators with more nous than Tony, including other Premiership managers rate him and their opinions are generally unbiased so I’d suggest fans listen to them and don’t place any store in Tony’s moaning.
Why don’t you transfer to Man City?
John Martin
102   Posted 15/09/2009 at 21:51:24

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Nobody can defend the standard of football we play. In terms of playing it on the floor quite often we are no better than Stoke, Bolton & Blackburn. Teams who get crucified by our fans for their style of play. You only have to read what other fans think of our style of play its awful to watch at times but can be effective. But so were Wimbledon for a while and more recently Bolton. The problem is eventually you get found out and different tactics sometimes are needed and thats Moyes’ major failing. He knows 451 and thats it. Even when we finished 4th using that formation it was because our 3 centre midfielders were not good enough in any combination to play 442. 5 years laters we still have the same problem. Everybody knows how we play so its becomming easier to prepare against. Its why the top 4 sides generally brush us aside. i have no doubts we will climb the table and the results will come but unless we win the europa league i dont think we’ll get into a europe next year. Moyes is the manager he picks the team and tactics if the players are not doing what he asks he should drop them,but i think they are doing what they are told by Moyes whose fear of losing even to poorer teams is starting to cost us
Dennis Stevens
103   Posted 15/09/2009 at 22:22:10

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What a sorry state of affairs when supporters of the club who still hope to see some decent football being played on a regular basis are invited to go elsewhere by those who don’t seem to like to be confronted by the truth, finding it preferable to hide the inadequacies in the playing style under Moyes behind his lack of cash. Moyes is now the longest serving Everton manager to have not won a trophy & unless he can get his team to play football to a consistently higher standard it’s hard to see how he ever will.
Jamie Sweet
104   Posted 15/09/2009 at 22:54:02

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Tony - You should only be able to come on here with your smug "I told you so"..... if you strike some kind of balance and come on here and say "I admit I was wrong and was talking a complete load of shit" when you predict something that doesn’t happen (as has happened many, many times in the past).

Well done, yes you were right this week. Big pat on the back - I’m sure you’re feeling very pleased with yourself. But by portraying yourself as some sort of footballing guru on the back of a couple of your doom and gloom predictions coming to fruition is just making you look like a complete dick!

Having said this, I generally agree with the point you were making. Just had enough with all the "I was right" and "I’m so clever" bullshit... it doesn’t endear you to your readers!
Sean McKenna
105   Posted 15/09/2009 at 23:25:05

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Fuck me evertonians get a GRIP, hoofball is fucking shocking! I’m fucking sick of it, I bet the CIA watch everton and use our performances as a way of torture for there captives!!! It realli is that bad. And do u know what that’s what they are told to do by moyes FACT! Put it this way, if moyes dosnt want us to play hoofball why do the players do it?

Let’s say for instance yobo keeps twating the ball up the field, moyes should say, eh yobo u keep doing that your fucking comming off or your droped for next week? The players are doing what they are told end of! Someone Steve coppell, he’ll do nicely

Lee Jamieson
106   Posted 15/09/2009 at 19:58:23

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Tony “pessimistic” Marsh there is only one thing more predictable than an Everton defeat and that it is more verbal poison from you. Except this time it’s not just rubbish you are spouting it venomous and its offensive. The very thing Michael Kenrick has only just written an article about but of course you wouldn’t have read that article because it was about people like you.

So here we go then the Everton world according to “Marshy” So you predicted Everton would get beat at Fulham big wow! Everton are not in form and we are travelling to a ground where we have a horrible record, its hardly mystic Meg stuff is it “Marshy”.

What’s your next prediction, night will follow day?

Second prediction “Hibbert and Osman would both start, again” what a revelation. Hibbert has started more games for Everton than the rest of the Everton team and although you don’t say who you would have picked I presume you mean Billy and Heitinga. What a great move that would have been throw two lads in right at the deep end without any time to acclimatise or prove their fitness.

Third so called prediction “ Moyes would make substitutions when Everton went behind”. Well again “Marshy “ you do astound me with your wisdom. Name me one manager who has sat and not made one single substitution when they are chasing a game after 58 minutes?

As for “other managers being able to predict what Moyes would do with his players” what does that mean “Marshy” Does that mean you second guessed Moyes again. What was it this time by predicting that he would turn out a team that wore short sleeved shirts with Chang on the front!

It’s not just the fact that you slag off the team you claim to love it’s the fact that you have a go at us real Everton fans. Your comment “The thing that worries me most of all is the response from some of our fans after this most predictable of defeats. Did you really expect anything else from Deadly Dave? “How dare you attack us fans for believing in our team and wanting something better than the abject performance we all witnessed.

Your comment “Haven’t any of you lot sussed out this joker Moyes yet? After all these years of boring negative dull unattractive shite his teams churn out, did you really think that he would change it around this season?”

What team have you been watching “Marshy” because I have seen a side constantly proving the pundits wrong season after season. I remember a side destroying Sunderland, smashing Liverpool three nil, coming within an inch of beating an Italian side that are now in the Champions league and last season against all odds making it to the FA cup final. You were never around then though were you; you were probably at Anfield with the team you really support because you are not a real blue!

I think you summed yourself up with this comment ” I bet any money you like, though, if we had of won yesterday’s game with the exact same performance, hanging on to a 1-0 win, most of you would be happy with the shite. The difference is I wouldn’t be. “Yes Tony I bet you would have been gutted if we had got three points at Craven Cottage but the rest of us real Everton supporters would have been made up. That’s because unlike you we want our team to win and be successful.

As for “ Hoofball” being a Moyes invention well I seem to remember the ball being knocked up to the big man when we bought Mike Newell and I am sure Moyes was still practicing Footy Manager on his ZX Spectrum then.

I also think we Everton fans have a right to criticize Jo as every “ slide rule pass to feet” as you call them went astray as Jo couldn’t trap a bag of cement last Sunday. I lost count of the times a ball was passed through to him and he lost control of it.

So “Jo is just like Andy Johnson and James Beattie” is he? At last something we agree on, that is if you mean overpriced and underperforming. City wouldn’t let us have Jo on loan if he was any good and look at AJ since he left us he hasn’t done squat!

So what did you mean by this comment “It’s common knowledge that Moyes lost the dressing room in the summer over the pathetic way he treated Joleon Lescott and I don’t think he will ever get it back. Not this time. Do any of you now still think Roger made a bad choice with his move to City? I bet he is laughing his bollocks off right now. “

What kind of an Everton supporter are you? Do you think Lescott was right to demand a move after signing a contract with us? Do you think Moyes should have accepted city’s first offer of £15 million and presumably thrown in Hibbert and Osman to sweeten the deal!

“You can see the mismanagment and the dislike of the tactics out on the pitch. You can see the players don’t want to know. The miserable dull souless persona that Moyes has is now filtering through to the players.” Yes Tony we can see the players don’t want to know but since when do they decide team tactics. As for dull and soulless persona, is Fergie like a conversational wizard, Wenger a hit on the stand up comedy circuit and Capello hosting his own chat show! Maybe Moyes could spice it up a bit for you with a couple of jokes in his report after a defeat or some juggling before kickoff. Give me a break lad I couldn’t care less if Moyes is the most boring guy in the world its his football knowledge I am interested in not his chat up lines.

I have got an idea for you “ Marshy “ why don’t you follow your buddy up the East Lancs and go and support City and leave us real Everton fans to try and sort out what’s gone wrong. I bet you’re great in a crisis, instead of manning the life boats I bet you just winge the boat is sinking. Well we do things different at Everton we stand and fight and don’t turn our backs. As for Moyes being a coward I hope he doesn’t know here you live as your comments are way over the top.
Oh and before I sign off its not big and its not clever to swear in an article my nine year old son reads this site and I don’t want him to have to read the obscenities you litter your articles with.
Brendan O'Doherty
107   Posted 15/09/2009 at 23:57:25

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The lunatic is on the grass

The lunatics are on the grass

Rememembering games and daisy chains and laughs

Got to keep the loonies on the path

"Tactics of a Madman".........???
Timmy Mongiat
108   Posted 16/09/2009 at 00:14:25

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Great reply Lee, spot on. I wish Tony would take note but unfortunately, like so many of the ’fans’ on here, I expect he will ignore it and be back posting after the next result that goes wrong.


Ged, the point is that we are not the everton of 20 years ago! Past means nothing in football! Look at our forest/wednesday/leeds etc have fallen away. We are an everton which Moyes saved from relegation and transformed into a top six team, we are an everton who out perform our rivals with considerably less spending power and we are an everton which will have to do things slowly to achieve long term. If we were the everton of 20 years ago, if Moyes could go out and buy the best of the best, then im sure we would be at the top of the league, because make no mistake, Moyes is a great manager and I’m sure that with the spending power of spurs over the past few seasons, or villa or city, we’d be in that top four by now. And when Moyes leaves to Old trafford, which I see as inevitability unless we get a big investor, then all the negative ones among you will realise how great a job he has done for us.

And Brian!!!!!!!!! Heitinga has played and can play defensive midfield! If you dont want to take my word and the word of many others, them maybe Heitinga’s words will work for you (although im starting to think some on here would even ignore those)

“My best position is ahead of the defence as a holding midfielder. But I’ve also played a lot of games for the national team on the right side.”



- http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport-news/everton-fc/2009/09/12/everton-fc-new-boy-john-heitinga-ready-for-the-premier-league-55578-24669393/
Gavin Ramejkis
109   Posted 16/09/2009 at 00:57:45

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David Ellis with regards your point 3 and the team play hoofball less and thats not DM’s fault can you tell me if it’s not his fault they still play it then who the fuck’s fault it is if he’s the manager?

Timmy Mongiat - "Furthermore Moyes was hardly going to make big changes and bring heitinga and Billy in, considering theyve been on international duty and barely trained!" can you tell me what exactly they have been doing and just ask where Tim Cahill the goalscorer had been before the Fulham game; international duty by any chance?
Dan Brierley
110   Posted 16/09/2009 at 01:47:46

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Gavin, you are talking shite. I think you will find Tim Cahill was rested for the friendly against South Korea. He did not even travel.

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/cahill-stay-boosts-blues.html

And I am not sure of your point anyway to be honest. Cahill’s performance was utter garbage again, and scored a goal should have been disallowed for offside.

People seem to be missing something in this discussion. Heitinga came on, and looked completely terrified, and was well off the pace. His first touch made Jo look like Maradona. He CLEARLY was not ready. I cannot believe that people are questioning Moyes, when it was clear in Heitinga’s performance he was not ready to link up with his team mates, because in all fairness he probably didn’t even know all their fucking names yet.

Both of these players will be on the pitch, when they can prove they are ready. But another thing that is overlooked, is the player responsible seems to not even get mentioned. Yes, Leighton Baines is getting fucking mauled lately as a left back. I have seen him get skinned more times than I have Hibbert this season. Yet very little gets mentioned about this lad. Any particular reason why?
Dave Wilson
111   Posted 16/09/2009 at 06:26:45

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Mathew

The two you mention will both tell you they were hounded out of their previous clubs, they were hardly fans favourites.
Anyway Billy has more experience than all of them. I may have some sympathy with your point if things were going well, but we were stinking the cottage out and if DM doesnt think Billy can improve on that, I am very worried.
The only reason the players I mention are doing the business is because they are being given the opportunity.

If we had signed Xavi and Messi would you have wanted to give them a month to "bed in" because they have no PL experience ? . . . although knowing Moysee
Alan Rycroft
112   Posted 16/09/2009 at 07:00:40

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Dear All,
A lot of sound and fury indeed! Understandable considering our very poor start. I think some are being overly negative though. Everton did’;t play badly first 45 against Fulham. I was just shocked at the subsequent capitulation - why wasn’t Duff covered and allowed so much room? It seemed like he had an ocean to shoot in. Fulham had a lot of luck - a deflection. Jo wasn’t in the game because he was the only attacker and Fulham defence had him tightly marked and no space at all. I thought losing Neville was a turning point of the game - after that we really lost it. I think the team should be given time we are often slow starters - last season anyone? Premature to be calling in a relegation scrap to say the least! I do however criticize Dave’s tactics along wth many of you, Fellaini should be on from the start he has presence, Cahill should be pulled off after goal and Bilye or Baxter should be given a chance. Yakubu should have been on earlier. Worrying thing is the thinness of the squad ;we really needed two or three more players than we got for the heavy season ahead. Let’s forget Lescott - been and gone looking after number one, you can call it greed and it proabably is but I guess he wanted a fresh start too and saw the writing on the wall at Everton . Hopefully the writing can be erased and this team can still gel and form a basis for fresh arrivals in Jan. meanwhile let’s beat Athens and the burn the Blackboys! Miracles happen, don’t write the lads or manager off after just 4 games!
Ciarán McGlone
113   Posted 16/09/2009 at 08:55:10

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You got to really question the ’understanding’ of those people who tell Evertonians to go support another club..

Ciarán McGlone
114   Posted 16/09/2009 at 08:56:36

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Oh right, because Heitinga says his best position is defensive midfield - that of course makes it a fact...

Didn’t Fellaini say that as well?

Having seen him play there...I can categorically state that he’s no better in that position than Neville.

Maybe you should try watching him instead of reading articles in which he bigs himself up.

Right back is the only position I’d trust him in...and only then because I think our centre halves can cover for the mistakes he inevitably make..
Dennis Stevens
115   Posted 16/09/2009 at 09:58:21

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Ciarán McGlone - "You got to really question the ’understanding’ of those people who tell Evertonians to go support another club"

But, Ciarán, these are the "real fans" who are happy that we don’t play football for most of the season, just as long as we are the "best of the rest" or thereabouts.
Those of us who want to see some decent football for more than a handfull of matches each season are just being "negative"!
Who’d have thought that Evertonians wanting to see thier team play football as well as we know they can would be called "negative" by their fellow "fans" & invited to go & support another team or accused of being Kopites?
Farewell, School of Science!
Ciarán McGlone
116   Posted 16/09/2009 at 10:27:23

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Indeed Dennis,

’Real fans’ my arse.
Timmy Mongiat
117   Posted 16/09/2009 at 10:17:44

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Ciaran your comments are so amusing! you do know that he has played in defensive midfield for long periods of his carear dont you? Actually I dont know why I say that, you clearly havent as youve stated that defensive midfield is not one of his natural positions! And fellaini at leige, was never a holding midfielder in a ’carsley’ water carrier mold. He was a box to box midfielder. Again though, considering your complete lack of knowledge of anything football, I excuse you.


Gavin, You are even more amusing and clearly have even less grasp of football than Ciaran. Two things - Firstly) Cahill wasnt on international duty. Hence his comments regarding his two weeks rest.
Second) That’s not the point! The point is that Cahill has trained with us before and knows our system. Billy and Heitinga have not! Billy came to us just before the fulham game to literally say hello before going on international duty with Russia. Heitinga signed and then went on international duty with Holland. Theyve not even had a week in the country before the game! Do you think that Premiership football is so easy, that a player can move from a different country into a completely different culture and pace and play away from the home in the premiership without a week’s training? Because some of the best players to grace the field’s of the premiership(and the world) have taken months to get going in the premiership. Think about it!
Ciarán McGlone
118   Posted 16/09/2009 at 10:44:31

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Timmy,

Name these ’long periods’ Heitinga played defensive midfield...???

Lets see who know fuck all about football...

So, fire away..
Dave Wilson
119   Posted 16/09/2009 at 10:55:59

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Timmy
when you come on to tell people they know nothing about football you really do have to get your facts right.
Billy did not come to us just before the Fulham game, he actually got on the pitch for the Wigan game . . . that was before the international break.
Being unaware that Cahill didnt play for Australia doesnt mean Gavin doesnt know anything about the game, it just means he missed
that particular piece of news, or maybe doesnt care about Australia

As for not knowing our system, these are seasoned internationals, I think they may be able to grasp our primative way of getting behind the ball and booting it as far as you can
Timmy Mongiat
120   Posted 16/09/2009 at 11:06:35

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Yes Dave I meant just before the wigan game, it was a slip. Hence why I said he went on international duty after the game. So therefore just before the wigan game - straight off to internation duty - back just before the fulham game. It’s hardly enough preparation is it? and despite your constant negative comments regarding our play, we played some very good football in the last two seasons.



Ciaran, he has played it for ajax. He also played it for athletico madrid (not a great deal, because he also played centre back(not really after the infamous foul against real madrid)
and right back, but there were several games when Perea played at right back and Heitinga played as an anchorman in front of Ibanez and Ujfalusi.
keith barrett
121   Posted 16/09/2009 at 11:14:56

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tony,havet to agree with everything you sayi cant really add much more.Its absolutely disheartening to watch this football week in week out.His management is kindergarden stuff and if people cant see this,ye really need to be worried about yourselfs.An interesting comment from our esteemed manager after the fulham game’the players need time to gel together’.Sums him up really.I remember a couple of year back,lescott had a bad game at bolton,dropped for the next game with moyes making an issue of it even though lescott wasnt long at the club.Now osman literally cant kick a ball,yet is in the team week in week out.Absolutely battling.
Ciarán McGlone
122   Posted 16/09/2009 at 11:26:29

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So ’long periods of Heitinga’s career’ -actually only amounts to a few games?

’Amusing’ u-turn.

Timmy Mongiat
123   Posted 16/09/2009 at 11:47:12

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Why Can’t you get it! He has played it for Ajax! He has played it for athletico! Ajax and Athletico are part of his carear! Or do you assume that playing a position for long periods means he has to play it for 50 games in a row? So by that token any versatile player has no position?
Or do you still maintain, despite Heitinga stating that he is best in the defensive midfield position, despite Moyes saying last week that he believes Heitinga will play in front of the back four long term, despite the fact that he has played defensive midfield for athletico and ajax, that defensive midfield is not one of his natural positions?
Ciarán McGlone
124   Posted 16/09/2009 at 11:57:15

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I do get it...you accuse others of not knowing what they’re talking about...yet have done a complete U-Turn and proven that you actually don’t know what you’re talking about - let alone have little apprecuiation for the connatations of the words you use to attempt and rebuke others...’long periods of his career’ does not in anyway correlate with a few games...by any stretch of teh imagination.

By the way...if he did indeed play midfield for Ajax for any significant length of time, I have yet to hear about it - and it’s especially questionable considering the Ajax team he grew up in was replete with talented midfielders....

As for my analysis of where he should play - I’m not going to repeat myself. The answer to that was spelt out above...feel free to read it - and I’ll give you a clue..it’s not based on either what he says or what Moyes says.
Timmy Mongiat
125   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:06:46

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Oo youve yet to hear about it! Well then he clearly cant have played there then if Ajax havent informed Ciaran. And apart from that your basing your argument on that Ajax have had alot of good midfielders so he couldnt have possibly have played in the defensive midfield position for them? superb work...
But you are obviously right, Moyes doesnt know what he is talking about, Heitinga doesnt know what he is talking about, all the articles referring to his ability and performances in defensive midfield are wrong and all the games in which he played defensive midfield are clearly mirages.

Superb work yet again from the resident toffeeweb genius Ciaran McGlone.
Ciarán McGlone
126   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:15:21

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And still you fail to answer the question....
Martin Mason
127   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:06:01

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Dave wilson, I have it on good authority that Xavi and Messi are coming to Everton in the January window. After a few months familiarisation, Messi will be played at right back or lone forward in a 1-8-1 formation. Xavi will stay on the bench until Davy boy’s eleven favourites are all injured. God, it is so depressing. Did I really watch Ball, Harvey, Kendall and other Everton players actually play football? I have experienced periods of despondency over the Blues but there was allways a light somewhere at the end of the dark tunnel. Even that has gone out for me now. Remember those wonderful, wonderful days when we won the league, Forest and Derby came up and dazzled the crowds, when Villa came along and won the European Cup, when Ipswich played some lovely football and won a European championship, when we could periodically expect Everton to rise like a Phoenix and give us a couple of good years. All gone.
Tony Marsh
128   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:26:20

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Just for the record I wasnt actually predicting Sundays outcome it was more like my own views on the outcome.Then when the game went the way I thought it would it became clear we are so easy to figure out.

I am under no illusions concerning the finacial state the club is in and I have to admit Moyes has stabilised the club to an extent were we are no longer fighting relegation.Having said that it doesnt mean we should put up with and be thankfull for the horrible style of play we now embrace.

Playing balls to feet and keeping possesion are the basic tools for any footballer to possess at what ever level they play at.We have thrown the rule book out of the window and Moyes allows or instructs his players to play in a manner no fit for an Everton side.

We can and have played some decent stuff over the years only to return to the long ball in the next game.Every time the team gets crucified after a poor game you know its on the back of a hoof ball performance.I think most odf us could take getting beat if at least we where trying to play properly.

Thats was my point anyhow.
Chris Perry
129   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:48:04

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Ciarán McGlone

what drugs are you on?

You have seen JH play defensive midfield and he is no better than neville!!

Apart from 30 mins in an everton shirt, where exactly have you SEEN him play defensive midfield.


Ciarán McGlone
130   Posted 16/09/2009 at 12:53:17

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Twice in Spain...

You?
Dan Brierley
131   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:18:22

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Fucking twice? All your opinion is based on seeing a player play twice in a different league, in a different team?

Ha ha Ciaran, thats a fucking classic. Thats even funnier than it only taking 25 minutes to walk from Liverpool Central to Goodison...
Ciarán McGlone
132   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:21:09

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How long does it take you to waddle to goodison dan?
Ciarán McGlone
133   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:23:04

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’Fucking twice? All your opinion is based on seeing a player play twice in a different league, in a different team?’
-----------------

A classic case of not reading what’s in front of you....
Kevy Quinn
134   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:22:38

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I cant believe yous have got into an arguement with Ciaran McGlone. He would argue black was white and still think he was right. To suggest Neville is of the same standard of Heitinga in centre Mid is plain stupid. Id sooner play Osman in the centre than Neville. Nevilles best position is right back and his best performances for us come here. Neville only looks decent in midfield when Arteta is beside him because he passes the ball to him as soon as he gets it.
Dave Wilson
135   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:29:04

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Dan

I was brought up on Scotland Rd, 10 minutes from town - at the most - and 15 minutes from GP - at the most

25 minutes is pretty accurate mate
Dan Brierley
136   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:23:02

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A lot longer than 25 minutes Paula Radcliffe. But then again, I do tend to stay around town for 2 hours before I even head to Goodison....
Ciarán McGlone
137   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:30:22

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Centre midfield?

Oh, a new argument!
Ciarán McGlone
138   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:34:53

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Dan,

Drinking 10 pints of bathwater in wetherspoons and walking around in circles is not gonna give you an accurate reading..
Dan Brierley
139   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:57:59

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And watching a player twice, playing in a different country is the basis for an accurate assessment of his strengths and weaknesses?
James Marshall
140   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:58:50

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Tony - I dont like to have a go at you, because as I always say, I admire your passion & spirit for sitcking to your guns. However, on this occasion I have to pull you up on a couple of points.

David moyes has been voted the LMA Manager of the Year, 3 times in his time at Everton - do you know who votes for that award?

Secondly, you state you’d rather us finish 8th and play good football - well thats a slightly weird thing to say, when you consider that football is a ’results business’ and nothing more - you dont get points for playing fancy football.

If you would prefer to follow a team that plays good football, thats fair enough (we all would), but surely looking at the bigger picture, in that I mean that Everton don’t have alot of money, and with the resources available we do really rather well - isn’t that better than coming 8th and playing nice football?

You talk about people ’settling for 5th’ as though its the worst thing in the World, yet you would prefer us to finish 8th and make pretty patterns doing it......that doesn’t make much sense does it?
Ciarán McGlone
141   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:00:17

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Considering he was rarely played in midfield by Athletico...I think it’s a reasonable number of games to assess his midfield suitability..in fact it’s probably a high percentage of the games he actually played there...

Now, if you want to talk about the other positions he’s played in - then that’s an entirely different matter...



Ciarán McGlone
142   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:07:07

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David moyes has been voted the LMA Manager of the Year, 3 times in his time at Everton - do you know who votes for that award?
----------------------------

People who don’t watch our games in their entirety?
Dan Brierley
143   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:13:30

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So how many times did you actually see him play in Midfield then Ciaran to formulate the opinion of him not being able to play there?

I prefer to reserve judgment until I have seen him play a few games for our club before I write him off if thats ok with you...
James Marshall
144   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:32:25

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Ciaran - I don’t want to pick a fight with you (you’d do that yourself alone in an empty room!), but why are you always so inflammatory? Your posts are all too often full of smugness, and an ’I know better’ attitude - its not very flattering and really does nothing to endear you to people.

You’re clearly an educated bloke, but please, try and be a little bit more humble and you might get your point across with more success.

No offence mate, I think you make alot of sense alot of the time, but the way you go about it just gets people’s backs up.
Dave Wilson
145   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:18:26

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Timmy

I dont think I do constant negative comments about our style of play, I’m pretty easily pleased, a decent performance and a victory does me all day long.
We have probably played decent football on half a dozen occasions over the past coupkle of seasons, this "very good football" you’ve seen us play must have been played when the rest of us were’nt watching.
95% of the time we play ugly hoofball. the longer you accept it, the longer it will continue.
I would love everyone at GP to shout HOOOOOOOOOOOF next time one of our players put his foot through the ball.
They may be used to it away, but if the home fans started doing it, it would stop after one match
Matthew Mackey
146   Posted 16/09/2009 at 13:56:27

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Too many comments to read here and someone may have already mentioned this, but in the game on Sunday against Fulham I thought Tony Hibbert was one of our better players!
I don’t normally credit Hibbert and Osman as I agree with TM that the pair together are a liability, but on Sunday because the rest of the team played so poorly, Hibbert was made to actually look like one of our better players!

Hietega looked a bit rusty and will need some more games to get the pace. I long for the day when Arteta and Jags return because then our season might just begin in the way we all hoped it would.
Couldn’t agree more about the subs. We do seem to be rather predictable and negative at times, especially away from home. Where was the £10m new boy? Surely if you buy a new car you wanna drive it !!!
Ciarán McGlone
147   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:48:33

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Dan,

How many times do you want me to answer the same question?

And stop putting words in my mouth....I didn’t say Heitinga couldn’t play there..I simply said on the performances I’d seen him give in that position - that he wasn’t exactly so good that you’d move him from the back line to that position..

You can reserve your judgement all you want...I already know that putting players in different positions week in, week out - is a pretty daft tactic..

I happen to think that Moyes see’s Heitinga as teh ’Banega’ he failed to get....If that is indeed the case - then he’s on a hiding to nothing..
James Marshall
148   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:56:39

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"I happen to think that Moyes see’s Heitinga as teh ’Banega’ he failed to get....If that is indeed the case - then he’s on a hiding to nothing.. "

And you’re basing this on what? Heitinga has only played for 15 minutes and in midfield cos Neville was injured.
Ray Burn
149   Posted 16/09/2009 at 14:50:25

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Is it too late to join the fun?

"Having seen him play there...I can categorically state that he’s no better in that position than Neville."

I agree with that 100%...and I only needed 10 minutes against Fulham to make that assessment. The full 30 simply provided conclusive proof.

I strongly suspect that Johnny H will join Nev, Jags and Yobo as a defender who can play defensive midfield but who really rather shouldn’t.

Tony Marsh
150   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:10:54

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James Marshall,When I say I would settle for 8th over 5th spot In the league I mean if we where improving
our football season by season.Lets say we had to suffer a few more defeats to get the message across to the players that football is the way forward.

In the long run it would be benefical for all concerned including the fans.I mean we have finished 5th twice now but where has it got us?We are as bad as ever to watch and there is no blue print for the future.Any players or kids who come in will have to adapt to hoofball and that cant be right.

What I meant was a little sacrifice by doing away with saftey first and trying to expand our game might result in a lower place finish for now but a whole lot better feel good factor for fans and players alike.

Once bedded in football would I hope prevail and we could kick on.Does that explain my comments for you?
Ciarán McGlone
151   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:14:56

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’And you’re basing this on what?’
-------------------

The fact that he tried to sign several playmakers...There were bids for dufour, Banega, Delph and god Knows who else....

Yet the closest we actually got to buying anyone for that most urgent of positions - was a centre half/right back...who has played a handful of games in midfield...

Moyes clearly wanted someone for that position....and he failed miserably. That’s what I base it on.
Peter McHugh
152   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:13:34

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i think when arteta has been playing we’ve played some attactive football last two seasons actually. But it took Moyes an age to figure putting arteta in the middle and it’s because arteta is class not anything to do with moyes. It’s sad that Moyes hasn’t even tried to replace arteta or supplement him by bringing piennar or dare I say it osman in the middle to have some creativity. How he can expect to play quality football with Phil Neville in midfield is beyond me. Even stick with Fellani in there. I think moyes has failed to strengthen the fulls backs and yes I include baines in this who now has no competition. Baines has about a dozen decent games last year and all of a sudden he’s great, I just don’t see it. What you can’t argue over moyes reign is his results in the league - extraordinary in my view. However, this is different to quality football and one up front, unadventurous full backs, no substitutions, 11 players defending corners and not being able to retain possession from a throw in is not quality football. We have stability now and it’s about time our manager produced entertaining winning football , with or without arteta.
James Marshall
153   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:28:17

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Too much blame at the Managers door for my money, Ciaran - you fail to realise its not as simple as playing computer games where you can just pick & choose who you want. Everton are not an attractive propsition to alot of players, and thats not the managers fault; thats just a fact.

Heitinga isn’t a midfielder by any stretch of the imagination, but to say that DM bought him to play there is just fantasy. I dont agree with you on this one.

Tony - I understand your point, mate, but I would also say that the football we play now is better than its been in recent years, and that at times we play some nice stuff. Agreed our defenders do tend to hoof it (Yobo being the worst but Lescott was also at fault for that), but Pienaar, Baines, Arteta, Yak all try & play it on the deck so we’re not totally hoofball.

We have progressed in my opinion, its just that we haven’t managed to take it on further since we moved up the table.

I would agree though that we’re not exactly Holland circa 78!
Ciarán McGlone
154   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:56:01

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’Heitinga isn’t a midfielder by any stretch of the imagination, but to say that DM bought him to play there is just fantasy.’
-------------------------

I must have imagined him playing there on Sunday then....Or Moyes suggesting he sees him playing there in future must have similarly been a trick of the eyes.


Dave Lynch
155   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:58:03

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Peter Mc.
The words Osman and creativity Go together like.

Hitler and human rights.
Kippers and custard
Moyes and passing football.
James Marshall
156   Posted 16/09/2009 at 15:59:41

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Ciaran - this just highlights my earlier post about you not having the ability to have normal, balanced conversations with people. All you do is spoil for a fight all the time.

If you read back you’ll see that what I actually said was that Heitinga only played there because Neville had gone off injured, and it was only for the last 15 minutes or so.

Do you not understand the difference between bringing on a player as a direct replacement, or bringing one on when an injured player has to come off? Heitinga was the best man for the job on the day, thats all.

I’m not going to comment further, because I’m being dragged into another ’Ciaran McGlone fights for power’ thread and I’m not here to try & make myself look like the smartest kid in the class.

Good luck and enjoy the rest of the season. No hard feelings.
Barry Thompson
157   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:03:43

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Hey, as long as we can attain best of the rest status and get to a cup final (that we get battered in) who cares. NSNO - what does that stand for again ?
Peter McHugh
158   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:06:26

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Dave - I tend to agree - but point I was making was try and be creative. Personally I would put Piennar there. Points I was making is that I would still have Osman more creative than Neville and thus stick him in there. Difficult choice and to use one of your analogies perhaps like trying to choose between Hitler and Stalin
James Marshall
159   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:11:27

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Nil Satis Nisi Opitmum

It basically means, best of the rest ;-)
Ciarán McGlone
160   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:10:16

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James,

If your willing to refer to people playing computer games - then you’re fair game.
James Marshall
161   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:12:17

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The prosecution rests.
Ciarán McGlone
162   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:12:18

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’Heitinga was the best man for the job on the day, thats all.’
----------------------------

This is simply your opinion.

One that I don’t agree with in the slightest...or one that’s backed up by the outcome of the game - or the performance for that matter.
Barry Thompson
163   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:15:46

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Thanks for the reminder James
James Marshall
164   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:16:58

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OK then Ciaran, so tell me, on Sunday who would you have brought on to replace the injured Phil Neville?
Peter McHugh
165   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:19:06

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James, I would bring bily on and have piennar in middle with rodwell.
Ciarán McGlone
166   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:22:53

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Fellaini....swifty followed by billy to replace Osman - with Pienaar coming in from the right...

It’s about as obvious as it could’ve been. There was already a defensive midfielder on the pitch..
James Marshall
167   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:28:13

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So why couldnt you just say that in the first place? Its alot more constructive to give your own opinion (which makes sense I might add) than it is to just criticise other peoples - d’you see the difference now?

Saying that I’m ’fair game’ just makes you look like an argumentative moron - something which I know you’re not.
Ciarán McGlone
168   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:32:23

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You didn’t ask me who I would’ve played...

If you play nice, I play nice back....If you don’t, I don’t..simple really.

Your reference to computer games was condescending clap trap.
James Marshall
169   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:34:34

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Mate, you’re the King of condescending!

I wasn’t saying you’re a computer game playing nerd - it was relevant to the point that people like to pick & choose who we should buy, without ever considering the human element.
Ciarán McGlone
170   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:40:29

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When did I mention who we should buy?

Anyway, before this goes off course and Michael explodes - I’ll leave this thread alone..

...and go pray for a decent line up and performance tommorow

elloi, elloi...
James Marshall
171   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:46:54

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I quote "There were bids for dufour, Banega, Delph and god Knows who else...."

All the best Ciaran, and seriously, no hard feelings about any of this.
Dennis Stevens
172   Posted 16/09/2009 at 16:54:08

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Perhaps it’s time NSNO was dropped in favour of SNAFU!
Chris Perry
173   Posted 16/09/2009 at 19:20:15

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Ciarán McGlone

are either

1) a child
2) Playing truant
3) unemployed
4) a skiver
5) Sad

to argue as you have, to be so self conflicting.

Grow up and contribute rather than argue and whinge at others, how many articles have you submitted.
Sean McKenna
174   Posted 16/09/2009 at 10:35:59

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I'm not a great fan of Tony Marsh, but if you take out some of the rubbish he spouts (Moyes is a coward etc), he actually tells the truth. For example: our style of football is just as bad as it was 8 years ago, negative tactics, playing players out of position etc. how some people come onto this site and tell another Evertonian to go support another team is shocking. Remember, folks, Evertonians are born not breed!!
Jim Hillier
175   Posted 16/09/2009 at 21:58:54

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Probably entering this debate too late to make any difference, but for what it is worth, two things stand out for me:

1. Moyes has taken Everton from mostly bottom half of the table, to best of the rest. That is an achievement. No-one wants to go back to the Walter Smith era.

2. There is precious little sign that Moyes is the man to take us to the next stage.

Would I prefer to finish just behind the Sky 4, or just above the bottom 3? If those are the only options, then fine. 5th again, please.

But that is just one aspect of the question. Am I happy to accept 5th as the best we can ever achieve? Am I happy to contemplate us never, ever winning the Premiership? Or only winning any silverware at all if the Sky 4 can’t be bothered?

Sorry, but if the best that is ever going to be on offer is a once-in-a-blue-moon FA Cup a la Portsmouth, then frankly - no, it is not good enough.

But then again, what I want is hardly relevant here. Football as we knew it is gone, probably for me the real nail in the coffin was the Rooney saga. It was maybe all over by then anyway, but it emphasised the stark Sky/Premiership reality.

The rich get richer, and playing for your boyhood club no longer seemed even a romantic option. English football has become like Scottish football - except we have four teams who win everything the vast majority of the time, rather than two.

Maybe Man City’s millions will make that five. Maybe they won’t. Not sure it matters much either way. One thing is for sure, we don’t have the money to buy our way in to having a shout of a long term breakthrough into the top 4, and with Moyes at the helm we certainly don’t have the nous to do it on spirit and skill.

English football has become a cartel. If our club had been better run at the start of the new era, we might have been one of the Sky 4. But we weren’t, and so we aren’t, and never will be at this rate.

The real choice is this: playing shit football and fighting our way to 5th, or 6th, or 7th, or whatever. No class, no flair, plenty of hoofball and no silverware to compensate for the pain involved in watching. Or at least trying to play the game the way it was meant to be, the way the great Everton teams of the past did.

We have won sod all playing the way we do, and we will continue to win sod all if we stay playing like this. So, if we ain’t going to win anything anyway, I’d rather we played football instead of hoofball.

Or, a big cash injection and Gus Hiddinck. But that is another question altogether.

Dominic Bobadilla
176   Posted 16/09/2009 at 23:13:51

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"If God had wanted us to play football in the sky, He’d have put grass up there." (Brian Clough)

One thing that pisses me off is the bloody favouritism that Moyes shows towards certain players. If I’m gonna single out one player in terms of explaining so many of our calamities, it has to be Phil Neville. What on earth is this man doing in the midfield? I’m sure he can be one hell of nuisance to our opponents, running around as does like a headless chicken - but a liability he remains.

As someone here pointed out, how awful it must be for a young and promising lad like Rodwell to have Neville alongside him.
It may sound brutal, but I think that Neville’s injury may well turn out be a blessing in disguise.
Brendan O'Doherty
177   Posted 17/09/2009 at 00:04:13

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Is that it over now? That was worst bit of hair-splitting,nit-picking,whinging,pedantic nonsense I have ever heard.

The defeat and the manner of it was bad enough,but this thread was enough to make any Evertonian top him/herself. C Mc G - grow up FFS! We have a game tomorrow....Bilya starting.....COYB!
Martin Mason
178   Posted 17/09/2009 at 06:32:55

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Brendan, et al. You have to accept that people have the right to express their own opinion of events. If that is critical or you just don’t happen to agree with it then it doesn’t make it whingeing, pedantic nonsense. It’s easy to say that posts like yours are also nonsense because of a head in the sand, everything is OK attitude. Both sides are extremist views and the truth is somewhere in the middle ground that most of us occupy. No Evertonian can be happy about current Everton performances or the performance of the coaching staff and Directors. No evertonian can deny the gross underperformance of many players. Surely nobody can deny that the football we turn out is excrutiatingly naive and boring. We can only hope that Everton, as they always seem to do, can pull the iron out of the fire. That isn’t guaranteed though
Ciarán McGlone
179   Posted 17/09/2009 at 10:02:36

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You’re wasting your time Martin.
Brendan O'Doherty
180   Posted 17/09/2009 at 12:47:11

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Martin, I don’t have a "head in the sand,everthing is OK attitude". I agreed with a lot of the points made in this thread about the state of affairs at EFC. But a a lot of it degenerated into personal hair-splitting "did you read what I actually said" nonsense, like 2 schoolchildren arguing in the playground.

Tony Williams
181   Posted 17/09/2009 at 13:18:37

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Well said Brendan, unfortunately most threads/posts end up that way of late
Tony Williams
182   Posted 17/09/2009 at 13:19:43

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This picture, always reminds me of this site.........and if I am being honest, of me.

http://blogs.technet.com/photos/gray_knowlton/images/2998979/original.aspx
Martin Mason
183   Posted 17/09/2009 at 14:45:17

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Brendan, no offence was meant mate, perhaps my analogy was unfair. My point was just that on a forum like this we have to accept that others can have different opinions and far better that than an echo chamber like many forums are. At the moment I have never been as despondent over EFC as I am now. Others like yourself may see things in a much more positive light and I hope that you are right rather than me. Hopefully we have the same end goal to see the good days return or at least days where we can be proud rather than bitter Blues. I’m working abroad just now and have also moved darn Sarf so I don’t get to many games. I’m glad to have found this site and the variety of educated opinion raised here.
Craig Walker
184   Posted 17/09/2009 at 16:38:14

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I completely agree Tony.

I love Everton to pieces but I just don’t find it entertaining anymore. Fed up of having my weekends ruined by a bunch of overpaid prima donnas.

We have too many players who are average but about 1 in 4 games can play half decent. I don’t listen to people like Richard Keys and the Sky media cronies. There are no bad players on planet Sky. I judge a player by what he can do with a ball and how good he is against the big teams. I was brought up with Sheedy, Reid, Steven, Heath etc. Brazil in ’82. That’s what I want to see. Arteta and Piennaar apart, I don’t see any ability which you don’t see in amateur leagues. It’s just a matter of fitness, worth ethic and playing to a rigid structure. I don’t care about 4-4-2 or the lone striker or whatever. People bleat on about this but they make an easy game more complicated that it needs to be. Keep the ball and you stand a better chance of winning. Sure the teams at the top are the money bags but they also happen to be the teams which play the best stuff. Do you really have to be a 20 million pound player to have instilled into you to keep the ball on the deck and get in space? I play every week and our team plays in that way and we win more than we lose. Anyone who constantly gives possession away is dropped.

I want to watch footballers playing the game the way it should be played and thought that’s what our club stood for.

Lucas Neill is Moyes personified. No risk. Good worth ethic. Dedicated pro. No skill. Just like Neville.

Seriously disillusioned with Everton and football in general.
Jeff Spiers
185   Posted 17/09/2009 at 18:37:52

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Tony, spot on. One question though. Please tell me YOUR perfect Everton manager?
Stian Skaar
186   Posted 18/09/2009 at 11:07:59

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Tony, I have to laugh :)

This negative tripe is really unbelievable. Certainly after the AEK game, but even before.

I trust you will churn out the same rubbish when we next lose a game or play disappointingly.

Unbelievable!
Ciarán McGlone
187   Posted 18/09/2009 at 11:40:23

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Stian,

Sunday was negative..last night was positive..

Can you not grasp the idea of calling things how they are?
Stian Skaar
188   Posted 18/09/2009 at 11:46:43

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Ciarán - I can grasp that idea.

What I cannot grasp, is the Moyes bashing four league games into the new season and with group stage in the Europa League achieved. It’s about the level of criticism, the language used and the I told you so-attitude.

I quote:

"The trouble with Everton under Moyes is, no matter who we play, the performance is a carbon copy of all the others before. The only thing that changes is the results. We play the same way and nick a game or we play the same way and lose the game. It’s a fucked up system to adopt and has no place in the modern game.

(...)

Where’s the slide-rule pass? Where’s the ball cut back to feet? There are none. No, it’s all bomber command stuff coming on to the bonce from up above with ice on the ball.

(...)

You can see the mismanagment and the dislike of the tactics out on the pitch. You can see the players don’t want to know. The miserable dull souless persona that Moyes has is now filtering through to the players.

It must be horrible having to play these moronic systems when you know you are a half-decent footballer. Trying to carry out the orders of a man out of his depth with the basics of the game."

Throw in the kitchen sink stuff. There’s a time and place for everything, Ciarán.
Martin Mason
189   Posted 18/09/2009 at 16:52:37

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What was the difference last night? Team, tactics, individuals or just a weak Athens side?

I didn’t see the game but would be interested in opinions on this.
Dennis Stevens
190   Posted 18/09/2009 at 22:09:15

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A combination of factors, I think, Martin. The team Moyes put out had a nice balance, the opponents were not the greatest (but maybe we made them look worse than they are?), & I wonder whether Moyes feels different tactics apply to european games. By which I mean, does Moyes feel that keeping posession, playing football on the floor & passing to your own team-mate are more important in european games ? Does he feel that "good football" is a luxury in domestic football?

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