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Knowsley Everton

By EJ Ruane :  08/10/2009 :  Comments (72) :
In the early 90s a mate in London suggested a driving holiday in the US of America. So we booked tickets from London to Nashville and off we went.

On arrival, we booked a couple of rooms in a motel and headed to Tootsie's Orchid lounge (where Hank Williams Sr used to bevvy). In there, after a few beers, we got talking to a couple of local fellers ("Y'all from Englan?") one of whom asked "Y'all wanna go to a tiddy bar?"...

Erm... yes, we did.

Before we went to the Pink Pussycat (or whatever) one of these fellers said we need to get some 'liquor' first. When we asked why we couldn't just get bevvy in the 'tiddy bar', he said "Well they're only allowed to sell ice. Tennessee State law says they cain't sell liquor..." etc blah.

When we arrived at the place it was HUUUUUUGE (like the size of a French supermarket). However, to get in, you bought your ticket from a feller sitting in a pick-up truck outside the entrance (not at the front door). When I asked what was going on, one of our new mates said "Tennessee State law says you can't sell a ticket on the premises if there is alcohol being imbaaahbed, on a Wednesday...." etc... more blah.

Once inside, I remember saying to these lads "Tennessee seems to have a lot of State laws". What they said stuck with me:

"If you took awwwl the legislation that has been introduced slowly over the last 10 years, and introduced it awl on one day - this country would just be one smoking hole. The military and the national guard wouldn't be able to do a god-dammned thang."

He continued "But those fucks are sneaky motherfuckers, they change everything so you don't notice, then by the taahm you do, it's too late.......Hey, y'all like Kristofferson?"

This has (as you can see) stayed with me and it's something I've thought of a lot re Kirkby...

In the past, arguing against the move, I've suggested worst case scenarios (coz... that's the best way to argue). I remember saying was that it was possible (didn't say probable — just possible) that five or ten years after being in Kirkby, a Knowsley counciller (trying to look busy) might say... "Name change - 'The Everton K Blues'....let's see a show of hands". Many told me this was ludicrous scaremongering and could never happen

When I replied "Yeah well tell that to Wimbledon", the response was that comparing the two moves/name-changes was unfair, as the distances of the moves were not comparable.

Well, I still think this distances thing is bollocks and think that although Everton are/were not daft enough to have said, all on the same day, "We're going to move out of the city, sell Wayne Rooney, have an away shirt with a pink badge and call ourselves Knowsley Everton", believing it's not possible is naive in the extreme.

The fact is, the longer 'Everton FC' are in Kirkby, the easier it'll become for them to end up called... something else. Fortunately for me, I'm a fat 50-year-old smoker... so with any luck, I'll be dead.

However, it's the living Evertonians I worry about.

Reader Comments

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Derek Turnbull
1   Posted 08/10/2009 at 17:21:19

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It’s the next generation of Evertonians that I worry about. They’re the ones who will have to put up with the consequences.

That’s why I think we owe it to them, to make sure that if we do fail to prevent Everton moving, then at least we can try and give them a better stadium. (And no, a good stadium does not have to be costly.)

I thought I had it bad as a kid in the 70s, well imagine how bad it will be for those little buggers currently too young to understand this move?

So come on, let’s all put a bit of pressure on Everton to give us a better stadium.
Keith Glazzard
2   Posted 08/10/2009 at 18:00:08

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I guess the good ol’ boys in Tennessee had no access to the democtatic system. You know, having the vote and turning up to use it at the frequently organised local, state and national elections. That’s the land of the free for you.

Luckily, that doesn’t apply here where, for example, we have a health care system which provides an excellent service for more people than there are without any health insurance in the USA. That’s because we have the vote and use it.

Similarly, if Knowsley council ever, for reasons best known to its electors, became a major shareholder in the private company that is Everton FC, some official or other might write a memo about a name change to the effect that you are suggesting. Can’t, and never will, happen.

Oh - and pink badges. For chrissakes, the’ll have players with long hair next.
Colin Potter
3   Posted 08/10/2009 at 18:10:40

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You’ve every right to be worried EJ. The consequences could be diabolical.
Robert Daniels
4   Posted 08/10/2009 at 18:45:58

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If our trusted leader says it won't happen, it won't.
Because he would never lie to us... would he?
Ciarán McGlone
5   Posted 08/10/2009 at 18:57:03

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That’s why I found the soundbite that the move would improve the team so despicable... because it was clearly aimed at the naive and more impressionable of our supporters — namely the next generation.

What you describe is legislative creep... and goes on all the time. The powers that be will only attempt to get away with what they think they can get away with.

Everton have been given a mandate for the most controversial of changes... anything else they want to do will be small change...
Dennis Stevens
6   Posted 08/10/2009 at 19:35:44

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I wouldn’t be surprised if a name change did occur a few years after relocating to Kirkby. It would probably be a desperate attempt at rebranding the club in an effort to restore attendances to something like sustainable levels. Everton will, in effect, have been destroyed — so I’ll be passed caring.
David Hallwood
7   Posted 08/10/2009 at 20:59:02

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Way t’go, EJ (that’s a good deep south moniker if I ever heard one), and what would you say if the proposed boundary changes that is meant to be implemented day soon, that would incorporate Kirkby into Liverpool.

The proposed name is Greater Liverpool, would that mean that DK would then be in ’our city’? Or what do you define as ’our city’ — if you’re born within earshot of St Nicks?? As I’ve stated before on TW, Kirkby is historically, culturally & spiritually Liverpool — you should take a look for yourself, the place is overrun with scousers.

Dick Fearon
8   Posted 08/10/2009 at 21:49:29

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Indulging in a drop of the o’l moonshine eh, Ed? I guess anything will do to keep the pot boiling. Or as your new found hillbilly mates would say, this one is from way out of left field.
Dennis Stevens
9   Posted 08/10/2009 at 21:56:57

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Good suggestion, David. RS couldn’t call themselves Everton & so they settled on Liverpool — we go & trump that by calling ourselves "Greater Liverpool"!
Jay Harris
10   Posted 08/10/2009 at 23:01:45

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Or Liverpool 2, Dennis!!
Jay Harris
11   Posted 08/10/2009 at 23:05:52

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David Hallwood, slightly off the spirit of the post but Kirkby is NOT Liverpool.

It may be full of scousers but was a new town created for 40,000 residents and is over 8 miles out of the City and very difficult to get to except by car (or bike!!).

By comparison, Liverpool has an infrastructure to support the movement and/or entertainment of over a million people. How the hell can you possibly compare Kirkby with that — scousers or no scousers?!?
William Fletcher
12   Posted 09/10/2009 at 00:04:29

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Jay Harris, Kirkby is not 8 miles from the city. It is easy to get to by several buses and by train and is in fact older than Liverpool as it is mentioned in the Domesday book. Check your facts.
Jay Harris
13   Posted 09/10/2009 at 03:22:24

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William Fletcher, On checking my facts, some people say it's over 10 miles (and one of them is a taxi driver). I suppose it depends where you come from and which route you take. I would certainly say it’s at least 8 miles from Lime Street. If you know better, please tell us what the distance is and the 2 points you are using.

If it was easy to get to, EFC wouldn't be having such problems with their transport plan. So you think it would be easy for 40,000 people to get to every matchday do you?

I really don't see the relevance of the Domesday book!!
Neil Adderley
14   Posted 09/10/2009 at 07:37:22

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David Hallwood:

You are confusing the notion of a ’Liverpool City Region.’

There are no proposed ’boundary changes.’ And Kirkby will not be ’incorporated’ into Liverpool.
Dick Fearon
15   Posted 09/10/2009 at 07:56:38

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Has there been a survey that shows how many fans live North or South of Lime St and how many do not live within the city boundary?
Ciarán McGlone
16   Posted 09/10/2009 at 09:15:00

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I think most people are missing EJ’s point...

I for one don’t give a hoot about location because I’m not a local (EJ might — but that’s a different matter).

My concern is the way in which the whole process has been conducted, the people involved and the shenanigans involved in securing the move. In light of this, the main premise of the article is the potential for future liberties to be taken...

Personally I think it’s done and dusted.
Eugene Ruane
17   Posted 09/10/2009 at 09:45:31

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Keith Glazzard - HAVE to tell you this.

One of these fellers we met had the same surname as you.

However he had it as his Christian name!

(or to be completely accurate, his right-wing fundamentalist Christian name).
Jamie Rowland
18   Posted 09/10/2009 at 10:11:46

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’David Hallwood, slightly off the spirit of the post but Kirkby is NOT Liverpool.

It may be full of scousers but was a new town created for 40,000 residents and is over 8 miles out of the City and very difficult to get to except by car (or bike!!).

By comparison, Liverpool has an infrastructure to support the movement and/or entertainment of over a million people. How the hell can you possibly compare Kirkby with that — scousers or no scousers?!? ’

Jay, I have driven to the site (in fact, look it up on Google maps — it's actually called ’Kirkby Stadium’ — if that's not an indication of a done deal... then nothing is! ha!).

It is difficult to get too. East Lancs... past Car Craft, then left on M57 one junction... Valley Road... stadium built here.

Valley Road is a dual carriage way with a small housing estate and several sets of traffic lights. It can't handle traffic any more than County Road can (and we all know what that is like on match day).

Sure, buses go to Kirkby... but so what? Buses go to Goodison and its still grid-locked.

The new site is a bit disastrous and is in need of a severe project plan if it is to go ahead because — and I say this with baited breath — if we are to miraculously increase our gate receipts by 10,000, then that's a further 10,000 that those routes to Kirkby have to cater for.

My opinion is that its going to be very difficult and it's also going to put the ’occasionals’ off from coming. Let's face it, who wants to come and watch Everton vs Fulham on a Sunday (at the best of times) and be faced with a journey to Kirkby?

I have a season ritual of first home game... straight out into town with the lads. Last home game — straight out into town with the lads. Derby days... straight out into town with the lads (you get the picture). This is going to be increasingly difficult too.

I just hope we don't end up like Boro — expansive, lovely, comfortable stadium — no-one willing to fill it.
Colin Potter
19   Posted 09/10/2009 at 10:12:07

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David Hallwood, Runcorn is full of scousers as well. Would it be alright with you if Everton layed there?

To be pedantic, if you haven’t been born within the boundaries of Liverpool, technically you are not a scouser.

ps: I mean played, sorry.

Jamie Rowland
20   Posted 09/10/2009 at 10:19:04

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Ciarán McGlone — hurrah! I agree with you (just this once though!).

My concern is also the way in which the move to Kirkby has been conducted. It's all very underhand and hush hush. The willingness (or lack of) to look at alternatives makes a mockery of the fans who are generally desperate to find a fresh option.

Legislative creep (you really do have a name for everything) or Everton ’we’ll do what we want’ creep is unavoidable. The board will slowly but surely add in all the little extras to make that move happen.

Last Shareholders Forum, BK wouldn’t even entertain a conversation regarding alternatives — just wanted to express his views on the ’only’ option.

Seems we, at Everton, are always limited in our options... investors, stadiums, funds, etc.

By the way — Google maps, search for ’Everton Kirkby project’ — brilliant!
Colin Fitzpatrick
21   Posted 09/10/2009 at 12:11:26

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It’s interesting that, after all this time, some people still hold onto their personal beliefs on the proposed relocation, which is good, as it keeps the debate going... from which we all eventually learn something.

Objective and subjective information has produced a rich, if perhaps unwelcome and unwanted dichotomy amongst the fanbase. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I think we’d all admit it would take a brave man or woman to attempt to give the definitive answer but some things are indisputable; like using the recognised method of measuring from Liverpool’s town hall to Kirkby’s equivalent in their town centre, the distance is, as confirmed by the RAC, 8.9 miles.

Kirkby isn’t, has never been and will never be in the City of Liverpool. My own view, for what it’s worth, is that it doesn’t matter one iota if it’s inside, outside, above or beneath the city boundary because at 9 miles from the city, the location simply isn’t designed to handle the controlled movement of the expected mass of fans and this glaring fault in the planning application was exposed to such an extent at the public inquiry that the applicants expert was sent away to recalculate his figures and returned only to be ridiculed again when they were exposed for what they were again.

You simply can’t get a quart into a pint pot and promises of jam tomorrow and “works in progress” are not given any weight by the planning inspectors, they examine what is in the application, nothing more, nothing less.

It’s a given that Everton need to increase their revenue streams, nobody can argue against this, but Kirkby was pursued because it was the Deal of the Century, it was effectively free and we were to receive £50m from our partners towards the cost of building the stadium.

Well here we are, years later and about to hear the decision from the Secretary of State and what do we know? We know it isn’t effectively free, we know there isn’t a £50m contribution towards the stadium and we know that we haven’t got a single penny from the proposed plan to raise our contribution (also known as the total cost of the stadium) despite there now being a condition attached which stipulates that Everton must demonstrate that they have the funding in place before any construction can begin.

We also know that all the clubs we compete with in the Premier League already have or have plans to build city based super stadia.

Thanks Bill; your dream is slowly becoming our nightmare.

Dave Moore
22   Posted 09/10/2009 at 13:46:58

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Oh Shit!! If we stay at Goodison another couple of years, maybe we’ll have to change our name to Walton Wallies.
Tony Williams
23   Posted 09/10/2009 at 13:41:46

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Jay, can you advise on what boundary are you using for the City of Liverpool.

You state that Kirkby is 8 miles outside of Liverpool, yet on the RAC website when you got from Lime Street station, L1 1JD to Kirkby (ironically enough I typed in Kirkby, Liverpool and it worked fine) is states a total travelling distance (not as the crow flies so the mileage would be reduced) is 9.12 miles, so for it to be 8 miles outside of the city it would mean that after a mile radius outside of the city centre Liverpool, as a city, ends.

That would then mean that Goodison would be 1.84 miles outside of Liverpool (2.84 from Lime Street) and I am a whopping 3.63 miles out of Liverpool, even though I live in Walton.

Using the figures above and actually going on the assumption that Walton is still actually part of Liverpool, even if the boundary ended at Walton Vale....which it doesn’t, Kirkby would be no more than 4.49 miles outside of Liverpool, however we do know that the city boundary extends way past Walton Vale and past Fazerkerley, which is just down the road from Kirkby.

Pedantic and nit picking, you betcha but I feel it needed to be pointed out.
Matthew Tait
24   Posted 09/10/2009 at 16:04:50

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I really think this whole question of whether Kirkby is in the CIty of Liverpool is a massive red herring.

Would we really be bothered if the new stadium were outside the City of Liverpool (however defined) if it were going to be an affordable, well situated, attractive, accessible stadium with good transport links, and likely to generate very significant additional revenue?

Would we really be happy with a stadium that was inside the City of Liverpool (however defined) but unaffordable, poorly situated, unattractive, stadium with bad transprt links, that was not likely to generate additional revenue?

The answers to those questions indicate me that the key issue is not the boundaries of the City of Liverpool. Obviously ideally any new stadium would be as central as possible, but many teams have to move outside the central city and flourish. The key stuff is all about accessibility and income. Location is only a part of accessibility — the less central you are, the better the transport infrastructure has to be.

And by those measures of accessibility and income, from what I can see Kirkby is a massive disaster waiting to happen, whether it’s in Liverpool or not.
John Beesley
25   Posted 09/10/2009 at 16:12:34

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I live by The Alt in Maghull, which will be a mere 4.45 miles from the proposed new ground. With present transport arrangements and parking restrictions, I would be able to drive 2.45 miles and walk the last 2 miles or get the train to Kirkdale and another to Kirkby and then walk from the station.

I don’t think I’ll be bothering.

Jay Harris
26   Posted 09/10/2009 at 16:37:00

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Tony (Williams).

I think most people got that I meant from the City centre which I feel is most relevant because a lot of our fans either walk or get cabs or trains from around the Lime Street Station area to the ground which as you rightly point out is less than 3 miles whereas Kirkby is over 8 miles.

City boundaries may change at any time but the distance from Lime Street will remain constant and to me seems a fair comparison.
Mike Green
27   Posted 09/10/2009 at 16:52:01

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"My concern is the way in which the whole process has been conducted."

------------------------------------------------

Would you have preffered season ticket holders / members etc not to have been balloted?
Ciarán McGlone
28   Posted 09/10/2009 at 17:41:50

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I would have preferred that those being balloted were actually given the correct information on what they were being balloted on...

As it stood the ballot was void in my opinion.
Karl Masters
29   Posted 09/10/2009 at 17:50:07

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Just in case anybody is in any doubt about why many of us are very concerned about the location -

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOUNDARIES FOR COUNCILS OR THE COLOURS OF YOUR WHEELIE BIN

It is because it is in a small town with inadequate roads, rail links and that town is to the Northern extreme of Merseyside meaning nearly all fans will have to approach in basically the same way from the South. It is 9 miles from the City CENTRE and no other major Club in any large UK city is that far from the city centre.

The links are inadequate and the Club have been so unable to prove otherwise that as it stands the capacity will have to be restricted to 40,000 — ie 200 less than Goodison!

Can’t see much financial gain in that.

This is all before we get down to the crap design, who will rake off what by moving, loss of tradition et, etc

I just hope that is clear for anybody who is unsure.
Eugene Ruane
30   Posted 09/10/2009 at 17:33:25

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For me, the city/boundaries/4.2 miles/ arguments are very logical, but ultimately (maybe therefore) pointless.

Aaaaages ago, Christine Foster wrote..

"...Great Homer Street, Scotland Road, Kirkdale, the Valley — all linked to the tribal district of our club. So to me it's more personal than even just being in Liverpool. It’s a part of Liverpool that belongs to Everton, and Everton belong to that area".

In supporting the idea of Keeping EIOC, that’s as specific as I feel I need to be and I don’t give a flip if that’s all emotion and no logic. (It helps knowing that as soon as they have to discuss the Kirkby travel ’plan’, the Mr Logics, who attempt to justify the move, immediately come across as flakes, prone to wild, insane flights-of-fancy.)
Dave Wilson
31   Posted 09/10/2009 at 18:55:26

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So many people have different reasons for being against this nightmare. I didn't see the Christine Foster post Eugene has just recalled, but for me she absolutely nails it.
Keith Glazzard
32   Posted 09/10/2009 at 21:00:22

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Eugene Ruane -

the name of Glazzard is an ancient and honourable one. It came to the place we now call England about 900 years ago, from Normandy. Jimmy Glazzard, signed from Huddersfield, as the leading goal scorer in the first division, in 1956 could have been an Everton legend but for a broken leg after three games.

If your redneck pals have taken my family’s name for their own purposes that is beyond my control. Britney Spears claims to be a descendent of William Shakesperare. And she does have a case.

But back to the point - the naming of Everton Football Club has got nothing to do with anyone except the owners of EFC. They never, ever, had to ask anybody about where they conducted their business. And the only thing we can be sure about is that they will never do it again.
Kevin Mitchell
33   Posted 09/10/2009 at 21:33:32

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So here we are, on the eve of hearing our fate knowing It’s already a done deal.

It’s all very clear now, after all the facts that have come out, we are being dragged by our heels to form a new shopping centre in Kirkby. All for the benefit of Earl, Green and Leahy. Well It’s certainly not for our benefit is it?

Yet there’s still people on here who try to justify it. God help us.

Tommy Gibbons
34   Posted 10/10/2009 at 00:39:24

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The worst thing the club did was to give fans the vote... I mean it got a lot of people thinking their opinions actually counted for something! Someone even redesigned Goodison for us! (but forgot to actually find a financial backer for the scheme)...

The owners of the club want to move; if you don’t like it — tough. All this crap about thousands staying away makes me laugh — you support an insitution, a football club, not a stadium.

The support for the club will at the least remain stable and most probably grow because of the better facilities. The only reason it will fall is if the on-field performances drop (and that goes for any club).

Just a couple of points to ponder on: Transport, do you really think that Tesco are going to build one of their biggest stores in the world expecting thousands of shoppers a day and not actually do anything about the local infrastructure?

And those who can design stadiums, now’s your chance to do something useful because there’s a stadium about to built which is actually funded. You won’t be able to influence the core build but the chances are that the inside of the stadium/fitting out will be subject to changes so, if I was you, I’d put my efforts into designing the inside of the stadium and forwarding your plans to the club. My guess is that you’ll find the club will be receptive to design ideas once the planning permission is in order. If your that good at it, maybe you’ll earn a few bob out of it!!

Christine Foster
35   Posted 10/10/2009 at 01:11:13

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Keith I actually disagree with your comments regarding the naming of Everton FC — it is not just the name of the club, it's the name the club took after a part of Liverpool, so association to that area is defined and set in concrete, literally.

The club is seekng to remove the link without any respect to the tradition, culture, roots or responsibility to that link. They have sought to do it for commercial reasons, all of which have been questioned and ridiculed for what they are. So much has been said, so little has been done by the club.

I hope without much conviction that the decision is against the club. I am not a luddite nor do I have any finincial reason for being against it. But, just as Everton is physical area of Liverpool, I was born in Everton, literally, so it's not just tradition, not just concrete, not just a name — it's literally in my blood.

It is tribal, and you're taking something from my village. Would you not expect me to fight? For all those gone before me; for all those that shall come.

Everton FC is NOT just a name irrespective of location, it is a home. It is a place. It is the very foundation of a city. It is me.

Gavin Ramejkis
36   Posted 10/10/2009 at 16:17:39

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Tommy Gibbons, sorry to point out an absolute blatant hole in one of your arguments about transport to Tesco’s store, shoppers will have the right to park there, with an exclusion zone of at least 30 mins around the stadium the access to the retail element isn’t pertinent to your argument. The club won’t even respond to how disabled supporters get there or where they are supposed to park.

Your final argument about funding is another grey area, as has been blown clean out of the water during the hearings, no-one — and I repeat ad nauseum — NO-ONE is funding the new stadium beside Everton FC. And as such, how does that borrowed money differ from borrowing equal or lesser amounts to spend on an existing stadium the club already owns to provide greater capacity and better facilities with proven access and transport links?

The surrounding retail will provide the club not one penny of extra income as it doesn’t belong to the club; the promised concert venue is/was a lie; any off field activities will be curtailed as KMBC are claiming a substantial amount of free usage.

The arguments don’t stack up, Tommy; the "institution" of Everton FC has fucked me and my family off enough to mean a positive decision on Kirkby will lose the club six season tickets. It won’t stop me supporting Everton but my support will be at selected away games, paying on the gate if I have to, as not one other stadium would exclude me parking nearby with disabled passengers to go and watch the match... but Kirkby won’t get a penny off me or my family members who are season ticket holders at present.

David Hallwood
37   Posted 10/10/2009 at 16:31:29

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Maybe it’s cos I’m from Dingle that I haven’t got the attachment to Everton eh Christine — I thought I was only joking when I said you had to be born within earshot of St Nicks.

Put simply, we’ve got to leave GP — or GP has got to be substantially re-developed. At this point, I would like to make it clear that I do not want to leave GP, but I live in the real world and realise that a decision about GP must be taken sooner rather than later.

Redevelopment of GP would be possible only if there was a substantial amount of houses cleared, probably all the streets that run down to County Road. This would cost millions and would take years and years of objections and counter-objections. If one family said no (like the old dears in Kemlyn Road), it could hold up the project for a decade.

Like a lot of posters on this website, a shared ground is a no-brainer, but it’s those emotions getting in the way of hard-headed business decisions. All other sites have pros & cons and to my mind DK is the only alternative.

I’m not singing and dancing about it, but I find some of the hostility towards it defies logic for a ground that is being moved 4.4 miles away and according to Google maps the new ground would be 7.6 miles away from Lime St Station, so when the move is sometimes compared to Wimbledon’s relocation to Milton Keynes is frankly LOL stupidity.

And as for infrastructure, that would come with the development, as it does with all new developments; and, even if there is no new infrastructure built, what there is at the moment would still compare favourably with getting in & out of GP.

Colin Potter
38   Posted 10/10/2009 at 17:22:33

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David, have you seen Tom Hughes’s plans? I don’t think you have. There would be a few houses to come down on Bullens Rd; if any had to come down on Goodison Rd, it would only be a few at the top nearest to the ground.

To say that all the houses right down to County Rd would have to go is just plain scaremongering. Just how much room do you think we need to add 15,000 to the capacity?

Keith Glazzard
39   Posted 10/10/2009 at 17:00:08

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Christine, I wasn’t talking about your, mine or every other Evertonian’s commitment to our club and its name. And there can’t be many (any?) who didn’t wish that GP was a 21stC stadium ready for another 50 years.

The simple truth, under the law of the land, is that the owners of this private company can do whatever they want with it. They can relocate to Milton Keynes and rename their business MK Blues should they wish. I doubt that this will happen.

But if anyone thinks they have a right to determine what does happen to this club of ’ours’ without a substantial shareholding in it, they are quite simply wrong.

We can, and do, vote to get a health system free to us when we need it. But we don’t get to vote for the football club that we want.
Dennis Stevens
40   Posted 10/10/2009 at 20:41:39

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Tommy Gibbons, I agree that the club should not have had the vote — it’s the job of the Board to run the club, make these decisions & take the responsibility that goes with it. However, that’s about all I agree with in your post.

Tesco will make some minor adjustments to the local infrastructure, but as they won’t have 50,000 people all turning up at their store at the same time & then all wanting to leave 2 hours later, their needs are substantially different to Everton’s. Therefore, the transport plan will never have the investment necessary to make it adequate for our needs.

Supporters will soon realise that the lack of obscured views means there is no need to invest in a season ticket & the appalling transport situation will mean that people will start to cherry-pick games & so average attendances will fall.

Lastly, who do you think is funding this stadium? It’s not Tesco or the Board — the cost will be borne by the club through additional debt that they’ll struggle to pay off as the necessary average attendances are not met & so, inevitably, players will have to be sold to make up the shortfall.

Life at the Kirkby white elephant will be more Championship than Champions League.

Chris Butler
41   Posted 10/10/2009 at 22:18:26

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Fact, Kirkby was a great place when first made... full of optimism, no cars, nice place, nice people...

But now Kirkby is not comparable with Liverpool. It has become a haven for scroungers, unemployment... plus nobody has mentioned it would mean 31,000 fans traveling north with Fazakerley and Crocky being the main exits.

Another problem is it would all but end Everton's support in the south of the city. But another reason: there are no safe pubs for non-locals visitors, no shops (except Tesco) — it would destroy Kirkby, Walton and our club... but most importantly our support.

Stephen Baines
42   Posted 10/10/2009 at 23:24:12

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This reminds me of when we were kids, and one kid would say if you don't play what I want, I'm taking my ball home.
Well we used to say bye then. I love it when people say all kinds of shit they don't stick to, ie: Wait till the Bulger killers get out — they're dead.

And this is exactly the same, wherever Everton play you will go and watch them, and if you don't, someone else will get your seat.

I live in Fazakerley and was born in Fazak Hozy so I'm a scouser and if Everton played in Runcorn, I'd go to watch them there.

I think it's amazing how you all think you have a say... newsflash — you don't... you're nothing; just a fan like the fans from the 1900s and the fans that will be around when you're dead.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
43   Posted 11/10/2009 at 05:50:28

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Stephen, the point you seem to be conveniently missing is that the fans (or a portion thereof) were indeed given the opportunity to pitch in. So it is not unreasonable for Evertonians to assume that they do have a say in this.
Ray Said
44   Posted 11/10/2009 at 10:18:05

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Regarding developing Goodison, there is no need to buy a large number of homes in the area. The natual extension is to shift the ground's footprint towards Stanley Park/Walton Lane by rerouting Walton Lane, the road running between the ground and the park, 30 yards into the park (the other lot seemed to have no problem getting permission to build on the park ). This is something the council could assist with and would not cost the club huge sums.

The council leader has already stated that the council would assist the club in getting the land around the club by Bullens Rd and the council has a large sum of money from central government under Building Schools for the Future grant so it could also resite the school.

Anyone viewing the site using this link will see that the ground's new footprint would be large enough for a 65,000-seater stadium.

Stephen Baines
45   Posted 11/10/2009 at 11:32:50

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Michael, I'm not missing that a portion of fans got a vote, which no other club gives fans. And because of this, all fans think they have a say.

The vote was a Yes for Kirkby, and before we start going into all the lies again, I bet who you vote for for government lies but you still vote the same crap in.
It was good of Everton to give people a vote, some people lost, get over it. I'm sure they wont ever give us a vote again, and they didn't have to.

I don't like Kirkby, it's true there's no safe pubs to drink in and I would love for them to redevelop Goodison. But I will support Everton wherever they play because my couple of grand a season doesn't even pay a reserve team player's wages so I don't get a say.

Stephen Baines
46   Posted 11/10/2009 at 12:03:43

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Ray, if your nan lived in one of those houses around Goodison and had lived there for 30 years next to people she’s known half her life who are good neighbours, would you like her to be turfed out of her house to live somewhere else next to people she didn't know, who could be the neighbours from hell?

It's okay moving people you don't know, would you like to be turfed out of your house just to redevelop a football stadium? I don't think so.

Think of other people for a change, because that is one of the main gripes about Bill Kenwright on here.

David Hallwood
47   Posted 11/10/2009 at 13:23:24

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Well said, Ray (pardon the obvious pun) if we were to stay at GP re-routing Walton Lane would be a better option, and then there wouldn’t be the need to buy up so many houses and perhaps (and only perhaps) with all investment that has gone into the city centre, the council will be a bit more ‘can do’ than what they’ve been in the past when it comes to helping the club.

Colin Potter accused me of scaremongering, and I confess I know nothing about engineering, but one of my mates when he was growing up lived by Old Trafford and according to him they bulldozed the surrounding area to redevelop the ground, apparently it’s because of the stanchions needed for the cantilever stands.

Keith Glazzard
48   Posted 11/10/2009 at 16:15:35

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Stephen - I guess that Michael means that the season ticket holders were given the opportunity to vote on the possible move to Kirkby. This was an unprecendented move for a private company such as EFC as far as I know.

And the vote was ’yes’. You might be surprised to either learn or be reminded of this. So, as Michael points out, the fans did pitch in, and they approved of the possible move. Perhaps those ’Yes’ voters were saying what you are — Walton, Kirkby, Runcorn — it doesn’t matter. I’ll be there.

Runcorn? Now there’s an intriguing possibility, having been born in Cheshire — as the Wirral was in those days. Boundaries change, you know.
Dennis Stevens
49   Posted 11/10/2009 at 19:53:01

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Keith, you’re right, a majority of those who voted were in favour. But it should be remembered that of those who the club offered a vote to, quite a few abstained & so this "majority" was actually only the largest minority group of the electorate — overwhelming support for the proposal, it wasn’t.
Keith Glazzard
50   Posted 11/10/2009 at 20:21:50

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Dennis - quite right, I never said ’ovewhelming support’. Margaret Thatcher was voted into government in 1979 by less than 42% of those that turned out to vote. She still screwed the working class and lined the pockets of the rich for years to come. That’s what we call democracy.

EFC is not a democracy. Never was, never will be. The fact - and it is a fact - that the owners consulted the fans - season ticket holders - is remarkable. And those that turned up to vote said yes. In a very imperfect system, that has to count for something. Decisions are made by those that turn up.
Dennis Stevens
51   Posted 11/10/2009 at 21:34:50

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Keith, I didn’t claim you had used the term "overwhelming support". I was pointing out that DK didn’t have it. Contrast with the enthusiasm most Evertonians had for KD, wasn’t that vote in the region of about 80% in favour?

The comparison with a General Election is erroneous as in that poll you have a variety of candidates to choose from & so votes are spread amongst the various candidates — you also don’t have to be invited to have a vote. The vote on DK was by an electorate selected by the club, thereby excluding many Evertonians. It was also a single candidate election, for or against — generally not an electoral format that’s considered to be particularly democratic.

The point I was making is that, even under these circumstances & in spite of a concerted campaign to highlight the positives of the scheme, it still wasn’t possible to engender enough enthusiasm to gain support from even half of that selected electorate.

You’re quite right EFC is not a democracy, although "never was" is open to some debate, it is a business & any business that wants to make a dramatic change to what it will be offering its customers, consults with a large proportion of them & can’t get more than half of them to support the change... but presses ahead anyway, is taking an unnecessary risk, to say the least.

Eugene Ruane
52   Posted 12/10/2009 at 10:38:05

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Stephen Baines, are you related to Big Ron Atko by any chance?

Or maybe someone from a 1974 ITV World Cup ’panel’

"Join us on Toffeeweb with guest Big Stevo Baines - he never pulls his punches".

I ask because you don’t actually seem to think anything through, preferring instead to just spout with the conviction of someone who is 100% right because....um..they think are.

You say...

"This reminds me of when we were kids, and one kid would say if you don’t play what I want, I’m taking my ball home. Well we used to say bye then"

Er no you didn’t, not if he DID take his ball.

You used to say ’bye then’ then..go home - game and fun over.

There’s a difference.

(plus you should keep in mind it’s a piece-of-piss to apply the ’my ball’ analogy, to a Chairman who says "It’s Kirkby and there’s no plan B")

You continue..

"I love it when people say all kinds of shit they don’t stick to, ie: Wait till the Bulger killers get out — they’re dead"

WT....Is there a point to this..um..point?

Well obviously you are, at ALL times, cool and rational - I imagine a lot like Roger Moore as James Bond.

Fact is though, many less-gifted humans, sometimes react emotionally to situations (eg: the Bulger murder), by saying things in the heat of the moment that even THEY know is hot air. It’s just venting and you really shouldn’t take them at their word (even for the sake of making a ’point’)

By the way, you don’t say how do you feel when people say ’all kinds of shit’ they DO stick to?

You continue...

"And this is exactly the same, wherever Everton play you will go and watch them, and if you don’t, someone else will get your seat"

Fact: No I won’t, nor will a lot of others. And if it’s in Kirkby, someone else can HAVE ’my’ seat.

And (c’mere) there’s more..

"I live in Fazakerley and was born in Fazak Hozy so I’m a scouser and if Everton played in Runcorn, I’d go to watch them there".

Really?

I wouldn’t, coz they wouldn’t be Everton anymore.

NOT - TO - ME.

They might (until the name was changed to Runcorn Blues) still be CALLED ’Everton’ but that for many of us wouldnt be (isn’t!) enough.

Would they still be ’Everton’ if they moved to Crewe?

Stafford?

Where (for you) would they have to move, for them NOT to be ’Everton?

Genuinely curious

I’m not asking you to agree with me or anyone else, just suggesting you try to get your napper round the notion that everyone doesn’t just say ’shit’ and go back on it.

A comment like that really does say more about you.

For many of us, it’s not enough to call something Everton, it has to BE Everton.

And if Everton move to Kirkby, for many of us, they won’t be.

Plus as my original post suggests, in time, it’s possible (NB: POSSIBLE!) they might not even be called Everton_.

If that DID happen, I would certainly NOT want to be a supporter of the team, formerly known as Everton, who play their home games in Kirkby.

Sigh - you go on.

"I think it’s amazing how you all think you have a say... newsflash — you don’t... you’re nothing; just a fan like the fans from the 1900s and the fans that will be around when you’re dead"

Wrong again (you’re fucking consistent, I’ll say that for you)

We/I/you DO have a say.

Remember Gordon Lee?

I recall screaming "Lee OUT!" and out he went.

Walter Smith? The same

Remember when Z-Car was replaced by some shite?

I remember booing and screaming "FUCK OFF WITH THAT SHITE" and that shite was fucked off.

When I voted No, I was having my say.

You may not consider yourself to have a ’say’, I DEFINITELY HAVE.

Also your ’arguments’ about grannies getting ’turfed’ out of their homes - truly laughable.

I mean is that what you’re saying would happen?

They would get ’TURFED’ out?

This honestly DID make me laugh, truly DESPERATE stuff!

Cut to ten shaven-headed loons giving it "C’mon grandma, MOVE!" as they smash a picture of her late husband on the cobbles

Sounds like granny better do as she’s told or she’ll end up in.... HOZZY!
Ray Said
53   Posted 12/10/2009 at 16:23:47

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To Stephen Baines, do me a favour and actually read my post. I start by stating there is NO need to buy a large number of homes. My post was about rerouting Walton Lane into Stanley Park and shifting the club's footprint towatds the park, which is still a viable idea.

To Eugene, well answered matey!

Alan Williams
54   Posted 13/10/2009 at 07:41:16

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Eugene, Knowsley Everton....

Well, your certainly scratching the bottom of the barrel now. Seems the answer will be with us soon so we can all move on and live with whatever it turns out to be.

No matter how many scare tactics you wish to print in these loose posts, Everton will continue and the name will stay as it is — after all, have we been called Liverpool Everton for the past 130 years? It's 3 miles down the road for god's sake, live with it!!!

I grew up next to GP and lived there until I was 19, it was a great place to live and play as a child; these days I’m afraid its not so nice and a bit of a shithole. My mother lives in fear most days and will not go out when it’s dark, she lives just streets away, ask the long-term locals how they feel about the whole area!! Only a couple of weeks ago stabbings and a local lad killed just off County Road.

The point I’m trying to make is things change; Walton has... and EFC need too... and a sterile environment is the what football has turned into. EFC are just trying to improve within their means, the only problem is their means are not that great so they have to lower ones expectations — it's not personal, it's just a matter of simple mathematics. Let's all go to Portugal and enjoy being an Evertonian!! COYB

Robert James
55   Posted 13/10/2009 at 09:45:59

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Eugene Ruane, Why do you only support Everton because they are from Liverpool. There are thousands of fans that live abroad, that support Everton because its Everton, not where the ground is situated. If you can only support your local club when Everton moves you’ve always got Liverpool.
Robert James
56   Posted 13/10/2009 at 09:50:44

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Eugene Ruane, You're wrong, you didn't get rid of the song and you didn't get rid of the previous manager, a lot of fans coming together did. Just like a lot of fans voted Yes to Kirkby.

If you never ever put another penny into Everton, Bill Kenwright wouldn't care, he doesn't know who you are and doesn't care.

Eugene Ruane
57   Posted 13/10/2009 at 09:56:00

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Alan Williams - I’M scratching the bottom of the barrel?

So let me get this straight - Walton is rough and there was a murder there so, let’s move to.....KIRKBY!!?

I’ll leave that to just sit there (the gags are too easy so I’ll skip them).

nb: I have ALWAYS emphasised (read back what I have written) that any name-change is ’possible’ (WHICH IT IS!) NOT probable, NOT definite, NOT a certainty. (Anyone who says it is NOT possible, is full of shite or works for Bill)

Robert James - two things.

1) I live in Dublin

2) It is not about where Evertonians are from; it is about where EVERTON are from.
Robert James
58   Posted 13/10/2009 at 11:07:55

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Eugene Ruane, so when you started supporting Everton, it was because they were from Walton or Liverpool, is that what your trying to say? If you're from Dublin, does it really matter where they play as it's the same distance for you?
Robert James
59   Posted 13/10/2009 at 11:13:09

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You'd better be careful, our next new owner might call us Walton Blues.
Eugene Ruane
60   Posted 13/10/2009 at 11:16:54

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Robert James - do you read every fifth word?

Seriously, Is that why you can’t actually understand what is being said?

I’ll give you an example.

In my response (above) I said "I live in Dublin".

Your response?

"If your from Dublin...."

Well (apart from the fact that should be "you’re") I didn’t say I’m FROM Dublin.

I said I LIVE in Dublin.

There’s a difference.

Also, AFTER I’d posted this...

"2) It is not about where Evertonians are from, it is about where EVERTON are from". You ask me "does it matter as it’s the same distance for you".

FFS, there are Goldfish with more... SIGH! etc
Robert James
61   Posted 13/10/2009 at 11:49:17

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Eugene Ruane, And you only read certain things, you did not get rid of anything from Everton ie, songs or managers.
And Bill does not give a shit if you support someone else, you are just a number on a ticket.
So the sooner we move the better so the people who are not going to support Everton anymore can go away and support their local teams.
COYB (wherever you play).
Eugene Ruane
62   Posted 13/10/2009 at 13:14:08

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You know what Robert - I’m actually going to call you the winner on this. ROBERT IS THE WINNER - HURRAH!!



(I suddenly feel rotten, something tells me I might have been sarcastic to a lad who is... um... how do I put this... erm... ’very familiar with wax crayons’)
Dennis Stevens
63   Posted 13/10/2009 at 17:02:45

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Interesting idea of improvement, Alan: move your business (a spectator sport, let it be noted) to a location that’s very unsatisfactory from the perspective of the supporters you need to come to your new stadium in even larger numbers than now. I’d say somebody needs a new mathematician!
Barry Mason
64   Posted 14/10/2009 at 14:03:11

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The time to protest and shout is when the go-ahead is given the green light.

I can't see it happening; like any businessman in it for himself, we will see BK cut his losses and step aside (to whom I don't know).

If it does go through, it's time for protest and the only way that will work is don't renew your season tickets... hence drop out of the Premier League and then work our way back up. Tough times for us blues but we will survive.

Dennis Stevens
65   Posted 14/10/2009 at 17:14:02

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BK cut his losses? I thought the share value was now 2 or 3 times higher than when he took over from Johnson.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
66   Posted 15/10/2009 at 04:29:37

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Dennis, I don't know about the "share value" increasing 2 0r 3 times since Blue Bill took over from Agent Johnson but the going price has been £1,400± for almost as long as I can remember. I’ve tried to track the share price here but to be honest, it doesn’t make much sense.

The strangest thing is, they didn’t go down in price when Bill took over and bought his shares at the incredibly low price of £857. And they haven’t risen in recent years, despite the booming cachet of the Premier League. How do you explain that, then?
Dennis Stevens
67   Posted 15/10/2009 at 11:35:24

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My apologies if my recollection is inaccurate. However, just using the figure you quote, Michael, Kenwright could hope for return on his investment of approximately 50% or so — not too shoddy I suppose.

As for the relatively static share value, I can only wonder whether the steady growth in our debt & the sale of club assets has effectively counterbalanced positive factors that may otherwise have driven the share value up.

Colin Potter
68   Posted 15/10/2009 at 16:08:06

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Robert James, Kenwright doesn’t give a shit about you either, because, when kirkby goes tits up, he will say it’s not his fault because he was given a mandate by the Yes voters. That is exactly why we got a vote in the first place. Try and see further than jam today, because there will be fuck all tomorrow!!
Robert James
69   Posted 15/10/2009 at 20:25:11

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Colin, I know he doesn’t give a shit about me, I never said he did. Are all the Yes voters wrong, just because you say so. How much do you charge to rub that crystal ball for people, because I can't say what's going to happen in the future?
Tom Hughes
70   Posted 16/10/2009 at 20:10:50

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Robert,
Just as we didn’t need a crystal ball to predict that what you voted for didn’t exist, we certainly don’t need one now to foresee the multiple pitfalls of the Kirkby debacle after it has been repeatedly exposed for what it is: Not a world class stadium, not a stadium for nothing, not even the most accessible stadium in Merseyside nevermind the UK..... A lie from start to finish!
Ray Said
71   Posted 16/10/2009 at 20:53:30

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To Tom Hughes
Tom can you scroll up to have a look at my comments on rerouting Walton Lane to shift the GP footprint towards Stanley Park and offer a comment? I think is a cheap, viable option (that would be supported by the council) to allow enough room to redevelop GP into a 65, 000 stadium and undercuts the arguement that GP is landlocked. What is your view?
Tom Hughes
72   Posted 16/10/2009 at 22:49:37

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Ray,
I think the club made enquiries to the council about similar when Johnson was in charge. Not sure if that was to increase parking rather than actual stadium extension. I think the issue with this end of the park is that it is considered the more important or historic part with more interesting features, not least the lake and the well established tree-lined periphery, which makes it a completely different proposition to the mainly featureless Anfield end, so think there would still be issues.

It is true however that the site can yield at least the same capacity as Kirkby with little loss of houses, and in any,case people should remember that DK threatens many more houses, a retirement home and a school. None of which have ever had a stadium on their doorstep before now.

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