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Blue Bill

By Peter Laing :  22/02/2010 :  Comments (113) :
It may be the euphoria following the results against Manchester United and Chelsea, the upturn in form, the return to fitness of key player's such as Mikel Arteta and the realisation that David Moyes has built a squad of both considerable talent and tangible asset that being an Evertonian the glass finally seems to be more half-full than half-empty these days.

Add into the mix the ongoing financial soap opera and laughable spirit of Shankly Shenanigans across the park, the perilous situation at Portsmouth, and the discontent of Manchester United fans and their Newton Heath protest against the Glazers... all of this has resulted in me questionnng my long-held stance and opposition to Bill Kenwright's running of Everton.

In terms of a timeline, the putting to bed of the Destination Kirkby issue in November possibly coincided with Bill Kenwright's renaissance as Everton Chairman. His post-DK statement that the deal was now off, regardless of the appeal process, and a commitment to considering other options in terms of redevelopment of Goodison Park, or working with the City Council to find a new home within the city boundary, may prove to be the turning point in his tenure.

Have my opinions of Bill Kenwright changed upon the evidence now presented in terms of shadowy overseas investors and the damage that their interest can inflict upon a football club? Well... yes; I have to admit they have. With the harsh realisation that football is having to take stock of its finances and that 'white-knights' willing to pump in money for the novelty factor seem to be a thing of the past, living with Kenwright and within our means is becoming more palatable.

The issue concerning Goodison Park remains a thorny one and is obviously crucial to how Everton move forward as a business model. However, the wage bill would appear to be comparatively modest compared to many Premier League clubs and we have a wealth of assets currently on the playing staff.

Should fans now bury the hatchet in terms of the Kings Dock fiasco, Rooney sale, DK, "24/7" searches for investment, the fictious Christopher Samuelson and Fortress Sports Fund, dictatorial policies concerning shareholder meetings... and finally back Kenwright — with the realisation that, although he loves Everton as his train-set, at present there is possibly no safer hands for the Club to be in when there is little or no alternative?

Reader Comments

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Eric Myles
1   Posted 23/02/2010 at 06:04:58

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Let’s see him do something first before considreing burying the hatchet.
Dave Wilson
2   Posted 23/02/2010 at 06:55:14

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The death of DK was announced the night of the Hull game; but for two nightmares against the Shite, we have arguably been the form team in the country since.

BK didn't lift the cloud that has hung over Evertonia, he put it there in the first place! We maybe should forgive, but let's not forget, if it was up to him, we’d still be on the road to oblivion.
Chris Matheson
3   Posted 23/02/2010 at 08:22:42

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Peter, I remain anti-BK. Perhaps one reason you are mellowing is because we haven’t been subjected to any luvvy-isms recently!

On other threads I have been critical of our negative style of play, but make no mistake: for me we are where we are because of David Moyes, and despite BK, who has failed to take the management of the club forward and has sold off most of our fixed assets, borrowing to the max and apparently putting very little of his own wealth into the club.
Phil Bellis
4   Posted 23/02/2010 at 09:42:59

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For me, the binning of the divisive, straw-clutching Kirkby move was a godsend for Bill; I think he was praying for this knock-back to let him off the hook

Suddenly the deal of the century, the only "deliverable" option was, with a haste that said everything, not worth fighting for!

He appears to have grabbed the daft idea in the first place like a poor sod who takes up one of these ’put all your debts in one place’ deals.

Recent crowd atmosphere, albeit in response to intense performances, show what we’d miss leaving Goodison — where there’s a will etc!
Alan Kirwin
5   Posted 23/02/2010 at 09:39:57

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I take a more detached view.

Firstly, we could be Liverpool, or Pompey, or ManU, or Leeds, or Newcastle, or Notts County, or West Ham. I name those clubs for the simple reason tha they have ALL been held up here on TW by anti-Kenwright posters as examples of what’s possible. Yeah, right.

Secondly, it is, is it not, rather bizarre that Kenwright is regularly acclaimed from so many quarters. And let’s be clear, these quarters include David Moyes, a number of our first team squad, other EPL chairmen, other EPL managers, countless pundits in the the print and broadcast media. The notion that every one of these people (most of whom are closer & more informed than most of us) are all wrong and that a recalcitrant band of rabid Evertonians are right is fatuous.

I have participated on & off in this tedious and often nasty debate for about 3 years. Apparently anti-Kenwright posters are "true Evertonians" with only the club’s best interests at heart, whilst those that seek to balance the argument, or just weigh up the pros & cons (nevermind those that actualy support Kenwright) are held up as apologists (Michael Kenrick's favourite word of all time) or accolytes.

So Kenwright has made mistakes. Unlike...? He has never taken a penny out of the club. He brought in Moyes when few (no, let’s not mince words, almost nobody) would have taken the risk. He has backed the manager in every way he can given the limit of his resources. The fact that he has leveraged his friendships with wealthy guys like Sir Philip Green has been to Everton’s benefit, and yet he gets only venom from many supporters.

Too many Evertonians are naive dreamers. Wanting & expecting the very best in every way. Why exactly? Why should a team with average gates half-way down the league and 1 trophy in 22 years expect the best? Such nonsensical ranting contributes nothing to the debate.

The notion that Kenwright has contributed nothing to our relative success in the last 7 years is as amusing as it is ridiculous. Who says so? Well, David Moyes says so frequently. Many players have also spoken about the benign influence of the chairman. Tell me, how many clubs does that happen at?

In my many previous contributions to the issue of EFC ownership, I have often suggested that things could always be much worse. It doesn’t always follow that change for change sake is good. "Be careful what you wish" for is very apt. I know Michael Kenrick hates the phrase (whilst loving the word "apologist") so I’ll use it. I have NEVER wished for a billionaire. If I could change one thing I would introduce the German system of at least 50% fan ownership. That aside, I believe ALL clubs should exist on commercial lines in the real world. No free money (City, Chelsea) should be allowed.

I want this because it’s fair and reasonable. But I also want it because it is good for the game. The current financial constraints (thank god, I love them!) is making for the most unpredictable Premier League for years. THAT, I suggest, is what we’d all l like to see. It would be nice to start a season thinking we really did have a chance of winning the league.

A chairman should be a figurehead, not a sugar daddy. He should help or guide the club with advice and leadership where possible, or with his/her network. He/she should not be expected to fund a club that has income approaching £100m pa... It’s absurd. EFC should be run as a company should and, ideally, strive to make a profit. Please god that players wages will start to come down now. That will get football back on the road to recovery.

Many fans equate size, income etc to performance. Money = success etc. Well, our size and financial performance suggests we should expect to finish around half-way up the league. But we don’t do we? We are usually nearer the top than the middle. That has all happened on Kenwright’s watch. He has had both direct and indirect influence on the club’s fortunes in the last decade and the vast majority of it has been benign.

Looking at Everton FC as an outsider would, it is very easy to see why not only Moyes, but Kenwright too is held up as shining examples of their role. It is good that previous dissenters like Peter are softening their stance. I believe history will show Kenwright in a broadly positive light. We don’t deserve the very best, that is frankly ridiculous. But we are fortunate to have someone at the helm who always has the club’s interests at heart. Given the examples quoted above, I suggest that fact alone is increasingly relevant.

Kenwright’s OK. And I suspect the next 5 years (with UEFA changes on debt, players etc) will only serve to amplify that statement.
Matthew Mackey
6   Posted 23/02/2010 at 10:03:20

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Phil, I think your summing up of BK and the DK project are spot on. I have thought for a long time that secretly, deep down, BK was hoping to get himself off the hook by the DK project being blocked. (I could almost hear his sigh of relief when the announcement was made.)

In my opinion (and it is only my opinion, so others may or may not shoot me down here), but if BK now put his full support behind a possible upgrade of Goodison Park as our number one priority off the field then I would forgive him and eventually forget that in biblical terms he once tried to sell our history for 30 pieces of silver.
Ciarán McGlone
7   Posted 23/02/2010 at 11:08:22

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Let's just wait and see what his next move is... it’ll have to be something special to top Kirkby...

Moyes is keeping the focus off him... conveniently.
Derek Turnbull
8   Posted 23/02/2010 at 11:34:57

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The word ’fickle’ springs to mind.

We win a couple of games and everyything is wonderful in our blue world.

If we lose a few, it’s the end of the world.
Stephen Ryan
9   Posted 23/02/2010 at 11:32:50

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"The putting to bed of the Destination Kirkby issue in November possibly coincided with Bill Kenwright’s renaissance as Everton chairman" ranks as possibly the most ridiculously naive comment ever to be made in the history of football websites and doesn’t warrant a response. What a gullable, gullable man you are.
Alan Kirwin
10   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:03:16

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Matthew - He did not try to sell our history for 30 pieces of silver, as you so lyrically put it. He was trying to square an almost impossible circle. He was seeking a way to improve EFC’s financial muscle whilst acknowledging that we have no cash, only assets to trade with (Bellefield & Goodison). I think most of us concur that Kirkby was wrong eventually, but the reasons behind the plan were noble enough.

Goodison can only be improved with more borrowing, or if new shares are issued to a new investor in return for a cash injection, thus diluting all current shareholdings. Right now I can’t really see either of those things being remotely viable.

It seems there are still some who find it hard to view the bigger picture and the invidious position Kenwright finds himself in. C’est la vie I guess. Clearly it’s only naiive if one either supports Kenwright or takes a balanced view. Only outright despising of the guy implies true perspicacity.

Amusing, sad.
Gavin Ramejkis
11   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:11:01

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I’m not tempted to do a "Kirwin" and waffle for paragraphs to say my piece. BK had nothing to do with what happened on the pitch; the players and DM did that as he isn’t the manager, isn’t a coach and isn’t a physio or doctor. He’s a liar and his redemption in my eyes would only come by leaving the club.
John Maxwell
12   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:20:01

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Very true Derek, win a couple and it’s the 80s again, lose at Hull and it’s sack the board, Moyes, Osman, Hibbert the list could go on and on..

Bi-pola FC for sure.

Big test away at sporting on Thursday, now that would be a real test for this team... Beating Chelsea and Man Utd is nothing compared to where we should be.

Get behind the team, back Moyes and Kenwright things really aren’t that bad..
Ciarán McGlone
13   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:22:37

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Alan,

Your view is not ’balanced’ by any stretch...In fact your main premise is based upon a populist head count of affability....you failed to balance your effusive ’backing patting’ with one single mention of his failings..

Balanced? Behave....

I’m afraid the plaudits of the likes of Mike Parry, or anyone else for that matter - mean little to those who are capable of making their own minds up ....
Dave Randles
14   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:37:11

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Alan Kirwin,

Are you taking the piss???

’He brought in Moyes when few (no, let’s not mince words, almost nobody) would have taken the risk....’

I would have replaced ’disappointing’ Walter Smith with anybody (even Mike Walker!) around the time he was sacked. How on earth can you suggest his sacking was a risk? The risk was not sacking him!
Phil Bellis
15   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:42:23

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Alan
I’d be happy to give (not lend) the club some cash to help rebuild Goodison and not dilute anybody’s shareholding. All I’d want is a brick, plaque or similar bearing my Dad/Grandad’s/ name in memoriam at the ground.

Now, my donation on its own is unlikely to do much but... others may similarly donate for their living or deceased loved ones (or even to see their own name immortalised). Who knows? We’ve never been asked...

And you’re right about not trying to sell our history for 30 pieces of silver — he was banking on the Clubcard points as well!

Gareth Humphreys
16   Posted 23/02/2010 at 12:39:01

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Alan, I also take a detached view.

Mine revolves around one simple premise and that is that Bill Kenwright lied to the fans of the club to which he is chairman. You may find that acceptable. I Don’t.

Secondly, I don’t think David Moyes would be in a job for much longer if he came out and called BK a lying prick would he?

Thirdly, he hasn’t taken a penny out of the club because there isn’t a penny in the club - under his stewardship.

Fourthly, we may become more competitive with the financial situation other clubs find themselves in. This is only because Kenwright has nothing left as security to raise money against. If he could, we would be in the same boat as them.

If the proposed rules are brought in about debt levels resulting in clubs being barred from Euopean competition then rest assured that Everton will be affected and that the cause if it will lay at the door of the one man who has sanctoined that debt.

You don’t need mental perception to work that out — you just need to look at the Uefa proposals and the balance sheet of our chairman's toy.

If you are talking about a bigger picture, I suggest you take a look at it yourself.

Peter Warren
17   Posted 23/02/2010 at 13:32:33

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Alan Kirwin, have to disagree, DK fails and somehow, Blue Bill is to be commended. I don’t get that logic, he failed with a project yet again, like he fails with kings dock, samuelson, chief execs leaving after 2 mins at club.

I don’t have a hatred of Kenright I just think he’s completely inept. If I see anything tangible he does well then I may reconsider my opinion, but not at present
Ste Traverse
18   Posted 23/02/2010 at 13:42:53

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A couple of wins against the big boys DOESN’T suddenly wipe out out a decade of off the field ineptitude by this ’Blue Bill’ bloke.
David Booth
19   Posted 23/02/2010 at 13:40:19

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Alan Kirwin: a very broad and fair assessment of your feelings - which I happen to wholeheartedly agree with.

What is it with this culture of always finding something wrong that so many people on here have.

I’d much prefer to reflect favourably on what he’s done right: in short, to control a club and a team we can all be proud of.

Yes. more money would be wonderful, but not at the expense of what its headless pursuit has done to so many of our rivals, big and small.
Ciarán McGlone
20   Posted 23/02/2010 at 13:53:47

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It’s amazing how people find opinions they agree with as ’fair’...
Brian Waring
21   Posted 23/02/2010 at 14:08:24

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Here’s a thought, if deep down BK was hoping Kirkby would get knocked back, why did he go for the idea in the first place? Also Stephen, spot on mate.
Richard Pagel
22   Posted 23/02/2010 at 14:16:25

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One thing I feel that Bill has brought to Everton is managerial stability. In the 10 or so years he has been at the helm, we have had two managers: Moyes and Smith.

Part of the reason we fell from grace so dramatically in the nineties was down to the fact we had so many managers: Harvey, Kendall, Walker, Royle, Kendall again and Smith... plus the various caretaker managers meant that the team had to go through so many unstable changes, different training methods, tactics, different ideas on what players were needed etc. Whilst teams were evolving around us, we kept going back to square one time and time again.

Whilst I credit Moyes totally for the improvement in Everton over the last few years, I acknowledge that Kenwright helped steady the ship. He was reluctant to sack Smith and has backed Davey through bad seasons.

Whether you are a Kenwright fan or not, you have to accept that aspect of his reign has proved valuable. Just a pity he's as broke as me!

Phil Bellis
23   Posted 23/02/2010 at 14:20:46

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Brian
Perhaps initially, like others, he was led to believe DK was salvation and the ’only deliverable’ and, again like others, as more and more of the promises were exposed as lies and fantasies, he revised his views and hopes.

Just another thought...

Brian Wilson
24   Posted 23/02/2010 at 14:48:01

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Brave move to retest this potentially incendiary subject with DK so recent and divisive. BK rehabilitated any time soon? Unlikely, too many long and deep rooted memories. I still think he did us a service getting Johnson away from the controls and narrowly avoiding catastrophe. Those whose memories aren’t selective will recall the relief and gratitude when he succeeded in ousting the hamper man. But since then, like most of history, its been one bloody thing after another.

We may never fully know what went on behind the scenes to divvy up culpability. Nobody has any special insight to his motives but for me, unless he’s been a subject of conspiracy by the gods, I think there’s still much to forgive and forget from the recent past. Still, trying to run a club (let alone a website) like ours with all the expectations can’t be easy — just look at the mess some are in.

Christine Foster
25   Posted 23/02/2010 at 15:09:08

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Amazing the smug complacency that exudes when we win well, all things are in the past and all is forgotten and forgiven.

Too much water went under the bridge to ever make what Bill did for many to forget and forgive. I have said repeatedly that he is deserved of all credits when the team plays well as he deserves the brickbats when the club flounders. Except he never has regretted a single thing, admitted fault because he took gambles and they didn’t come off (thankfully)... Does anyone really believe that, if it wasn’t for the GFC, he would have been lobbying for an appeal over Kirkby?

So in a nutshell, the GFC meant that those with the most to lose in terms of debts are most at risk, those with less debt have less to lose, so suddenly we are touted as being the best way to run a football club?? Heaven help us.

So, whilst many will point to the "relative" success then please also look at the "relative" failure on the other side of the ledger. Has it balanced out in favour of Bill? Not from where I sit, but that's just my opinion.

Jay Harris
26   Posted 23/02/2010 at 15:07:46

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Alan, you should have been a politician.

How you can defend a man who has consistently and persistently:

1. Lied to the fans.

2. Treated shareholders with contempt

3.Tried to sell the soul of the club for 30 pieces of silver

4.Disrupted the advance of progress on the pitch with the last two pre-seasons' claim that there were funds available for players while selling players off at the last minute to fund any incoming players.

5. Gone through CEOs.

6. Taken the club from £5 million debt to a reputed £80 million while selling off all assets and enjoying the benefits of the Rooney and Lescott money — without which I am sure we WOULD be joining the ranks of Portsmouth, West Ham, Notts County et al.

7. Totally mismanaged (at best) 2 ground moves.

8. Been looking for investment 24/7..... What? for 10 years?......Yeah right.

His only positive (if you call it that) trait is his charm.

If you want to know the true character of the man, try making an enquiry into buying EFC or better still just ask Paul Gregg, his best friend and funder until he asked Bill to step down as chairman because of his incompetence. Then he was depicted as the devil incarnate.
Mark Reid
27   Posted 23/02/2010 at 15:41:33

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Alan Kirwin: "Too many Evertonians are naive dreamers. Wanting & expecting the very best in every way"

You’re right Alan. In reality it has taken (without huge resources) years to turn the supertanker, from collision course to — the open sea of being genuine competitors, year-in, year-out.

The summer and up to November 2009 was not ideal. However, you never get an easy ride in life.

However, I always look back to what we had in 2001, and yes they were good lads then — Duncan Ferguson gave us pride, but not like our current lot.

I’ve said before, my proudest moment since 2004 when we defied the odds, or last year at the Semi Final at Wembley... was Saturday: Seeing my favourite player give the ball to Rodwell in the middle, kind of like "go on son"... to then see him score was brilliant.

What I mean regarding the pride, is — we’re not wholly dependent on Mikel Arteta. It would be unfair on him. The fact Moyes has now put quality players around Mikel and we have a genuine XI is what I get the biggest buzz from.

Mikel’s coming back from injury, but seeing the photo of him, Gosling and Ossie at the end on Saturday and his huge smile is just brilliant, especially for a player out for 10 months so tragically. He’s got genuine team mates around him.

No wonder Mikel’s said how much he loves the club.
Kevin Gillen
28   Posted 23/02/2010 at 15:31:12

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Evertonians will always find something to fight about, it’s worse than the Labour Party but credit to Peter Laing. I always say to people who moan too much, "Take a look outside of yourself". In other words we could have done a lot worse than Blue Bill.

As for liars Milton Friedman said that the social responsibility of firms is to be as profitable as possible. Blue Bill has at various times and for various reasons been economical with the truth and at other times been remarkably frank and honest, e.g. I don’t have the money to take this club forward. I find the Blue Bill is a liar scripts distasteful. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The King’s Dock opportunity was a lost opportunity but I for one could never foresee how the fans could have got to and from the match. Also we did not post -Johnson have the unity or financial muscle to deliver the project. Blue Bill must take his share of the blame but others also have their share of the responsibility. As for the Fortress Sports Fund we aren’t the first and won’t be the last club to be led up the garden path by dodgy offshore investors (Leeds for example). I am very glad sense prevailed with Chris Samuelson and his equity company, my view of that is well done Blue Bill!

I am also really pleased DK is off the agenda. The tone of the blogs on this site has visibly been more harmonious since we have had that monkey off our back.

I have never liked the location of Goodison and the stadium is in desperate need of a facelift but I do think it could be redeveloped and retain its best features and I hope that is where Liverpool City Council and Blue Bill head for next. Could we also have some decent parking nearby as well and an upgrade to the Ring Road.

Mark Reid
29   Posted 23/02/2010 at 15:52:59

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I’ll just add.

The supertanker — being Everton —was going to run aground. The playing staff was aged... never mind aging in 2001. The club was literally nowhere.

Now we’re bringing through quality youngsters. Finch Farm is literally truly excellent as a training facility. Generations better for the club than the historic Bellefield.

We all know that to truly improve the club’s finances (increase turnover) the stadium needs to be addressed. I’d say that because the DK projects now accepted as gone, EFC have commissioned a different consultant, and arguably LCC have been forced into a situation (of giving the club genuine support because of their disproportionate support of the struggling reds)... things are different now for our club.

We have a debt. Higher than ideal. But its a managable one. Plus we have the opportunity of increasing turnover, coupled with on the pitch performances......

So, whilst the neighbours are struggling with an unmanagable debt burden... we have our window of opportunity.

Let's hope Kenwright seizes it in the next 12 months. For me that is key to him as Chariman.
Phil Bellis
30   Posted 23/02/2010 at 16:02:58

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Pity Kevin... would Sunningdale have been a nicer location for you? What do you expect from a late-Victorian, village football ground, set up when the mode of transport for the great unwashed was Shanks’ pony? Not much call for car parking space in the 1890s, was there?

Should have moved on, you reply? Agreed... could it have been the fault of successive Board’s that we haven’t since 1987?

As for the..."could have done a lot worse", how about the opposite"? Credit the man for his successes, but don’t nominate him for canonisation. Not in this post code

Kevin Gillen
31   Posted 23/02/2010 at 16:29:27

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Phil, my article hardly amounts to a canonization. I simply call for a sense of perspective. I wonder, would we swap our owners for the Glazers or for Gillett and Hicks? Possibly but overall maybe not. Blue Bill over his tenure has delivered us from the obscurity of the post-John Moores era and the Johnson Hamper debacle. We have had incremental progress and some semblance of stability and we’ve avoided Ken Bates. As for the ground, come on, I love it but it’s a toilet and no, don’t be cheeky, I don’t even know where Sunningdale is and shame on you for knowing where it is.
Dan Brierley
32   Posted 23/02/2010 at 16:40:36

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Some people are just like that. They will always see the the shite side of things, regardless of what the triumphs were.

Why is he still chairman? Quite simply, because the fans, board and manager are still happy to have him there. And when I say fans, I mean the majority of fans. We have seen some ’demonstrations’ against BK over the years, with the numbers being in the tens outside the ground, not even hundreds. Fans vote with their feet, and by organising protests (a la United fans with the scarfs). Why don’t we protest? Well, because the vast majority are happy with the club's progress. I for one, am happy with the current state of the club both on and off the field. David Moyes is given a free reign to run the football side of things in the way he sees fit, without interference. I feel proud to be an Evertonian today.

I am more of a football man, than having an active interest of what happens in the boardroom. The same people above foresaw years ago that this club will be going downhill under ’Black Bill’s’ reign. Well, since then we have the best squad for a long time, got to a cup final, unearthed some more gems, and currently the top form team in the toughest league in the world.

I am not saying BK has made mistakes, he certainly has, and I am sure he would admit to it. But as I am nowhere near close enough to the running of the club to have an educated view of the inside, I prefer to focus on what BK supplies David Moyes with.

Like the above, I could say what I THINK about BK, and how he should run the club. But the reality is, I don't know the man from Adam, and I haven’t got a clue what it takes to run a football club. It's quite easy to write bullet points of his mistakes, I could do it myself.

But one thing I do KNOW though, is that he has stayed supportive of DM, when some of those posting above were calling for his head, and we are seeing the benefits of that loyalty throughout the club. The players are happy, the manager still has the fire in his belly and passion for the club, and the majority of fans are smiling, and enjoying the last few months of being an Everton fan. Even my derby pain has been washed away with a new wave of optimism, and confidence.

Now should our position change, and we stop improving, and progress reverses, my view will undoubtedly change. BK has the toughest task of his reign now, and that is to take us to the next level, or put us in the hands of someone who can. Everybody who works at EFC currently has my full support, and I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that. I really am genuinely happy to be a Blue.

Phil Bellis
33   Posted 23/02/2010 at 17:03:04

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Sorry Kevin... didn’t mean to pick on you - mis-spent youth (in part) in Sunningdale and Windsor! A Scouse accent opened lots of things in those days. I just get really annoyed at the wasted opportunities and seeming lack of a business plan.

It ’s strange that, with everything we’ve got going for us, we can’t attract funds. (Cue ground, millstone. 15,000 obstructed views, warm Chang...) And, like you, I love the ground but it’s not our fault it’s run-down; we wouldn’t let our own homes go to rot, would we? It’’s shameful

How much, I wonder, has been wasted by this Board in balmy schemes and lost opportunities that could’ve been spent on home improvements? Remember Bob and the crumbling concrete step? — don’t tell us about it and take photos you daft beggar — just get it fixed!

Kevin Gillen
34   Posted 23/02/2010 at 17:38:18

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Fair play Phil.
Kevin Spencer
35   Posted 23/02/2010 at 18:04:00

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Speaking of Bill Kenwright. His right hand, Mr. Jon Woods (Picture below)

http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/sp/empics/20091220/21/3688679835-soccer-barclays-premier-league-everton-v-birmingham-city-goodison-park.jpg

Isn’t he the one, playing the evil Professor Nimnul in the "Rescue Rangers"? (Picture below)

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/images/a-c/cdrrv2-23.jpg

If Woods is just half that evil in real life, he could well get us more cash in one way or another.
Alan Kirwin
36   Posted 23/02/2010 at 19:47:02

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Dave Randles - what on earth are you on about? The point is about taking a punt on an unproven manager from a league below. Sacking Walter Smith (a decision taken by Kenwright if I recall) is a side issue. Replacing him with Moyes from Preston is the point.

Anybody with half a brain can see that. Even, I imagine, those who have nothing better to do than despise a man they’ve never met. Pity you miss the whole fucking point. Try reading it twice next time.
Alan Kirwin
37   Posted 23/02/2010 at 19:51:59

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1. Christine - the "smug complacency", to give it a ridiculously derisory and misleading term, has been there for several years through thick & thin. Check the posts & don’t make such ridiculously sweeping statements.

2. Ciaran - funny how views you disagree with can never be viewed as fair. Is there actually a limit to your pedantic petiness? It seems not. And what in the name of fuck is backing patting?

3. Kevin Gillen - top post. Balanced, fair, mature.

I can’t even imagine how those that despise Kenwright would have reacted if the ex billionaire Mike Ashley had bought us (no doubt unbridled joy to start) and then overseen our total disintegration & relegation (hmm, slight rethink on that billionaire thing).

Hate is a bizarre notion. To hate someone you’ve never met takes some doing. Especially when that someone has so many supporters amongst those that do know him. Even if he’s made mistakes, tell me,who are you comparing him to? I’d liek to know this because we never really discover who or what the ideal solution is.

What I like to do very early on Sunday mornings is nip down the beach and bury a load of metal plates with "Get a life" stamped on them. I suggest all those with over-flowing anti-Kenwright bile visit the beach sometime with your metal detectors. Far better use of your time.

Calm down & carry on.
Gareth Humphreys
38   Posted 23/02/2010 at 20:48:19

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Not care to answer any of my points Alan?
Oh yes sorry, you can’t.
See you at the beach.
Francis Milner
39   Posted 23/02/2010 at 20:35:42

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Alan
I totally agree with you.
It’s a free country (actually not 100% sure about that) and I respect opposing views but what I can’t understand is the bile, vitriol and sheer hatred which a tiny minority direct towards BK. I know many fellow Blues who react violently at the very mention of Toffeeweb which is seen as a bastion of prejudice and negativity.
I guess the few minutes spent typing this has been a waste of time. The editorial board believe in free speech, providing it doesn’t criticise them.
Brian Wilson
40   Posted 23/02/2010 at 20:45:59

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Its all getting rather Harry Enfield again. All heat no light then Lyndon calls time. What’s next the ground staff - yes you know those vicious bastards who can’t paint a white line to save their lives.
John Jennings
41   Posted 23/02/2010 at 20:46:41

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Peter - good thoughtful article. Alan Kirwin - some great points but I dont think BK should escape some criticism, particularly over the Fortress fiasco and DK.

Living away from Merseyside, I talk mainly to non-blues who, almost to a man (and woman), are amazed to hear of the criticism and vitriol that are aimed at our chairman and manager. We are viewed by the majority as a progressive club, consistently over-performing and graduallly becoming stronger, without selling our souls to the devil (Scum/RS/Chelski/Citteh come to mind), and without taking the game away from the real fans.

Someone has posted on here that we really do like to beat ourselves up and perhaps need to take a step back, and see the club through other’s eyes. I couldn’t agree more.

I chatted to an old Gooner mate on Saturday and he said what a fantastic example Everton had set having two young english lads coming off the bench to score against the champions. He also echoed his managers comments about the passion that good old GP could generate on such occassions and commented that if Platini has his way, we will be Champions of Europe in 5 years.

Now there’s a thought... COYB !!!
Derek Thomas
42   Posted 23/02/2010 at 20:48:33

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I;m with Gareth H, Christine F, Jay H and others.

Moyes and BK;s Good points got us where we are today (shades of CJ) But thier bad points seem to stop us going on, though fair play to Moyes he seems to be improving.

But Bill can’t, it;s in his nature, it’s what he is, which is....

His main job is to bullshit people into investing in his productions, called Angels, for a share in the glory and if it breaks evenl eg more than 60% bums on seats for the run maybe some cash back.

So no change there then.

What you see is what you get, smoke and mirrors.
Martin Mason
43   Posted 23/02/2010 at 23:39:19

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There comes a point when the fortunes of a club change. Kendal was for a time the most incompetent manager I had ever seen at Everton with a fixation for buying second division players. And then came Oxford and the rest is history. It may be that Everton have turned a similar corner now and that this is our time and if so BK can share the praise just as much as the players and manager whatever he has done before. I have nothing against BK and I believe that simple theories such as incompetence always trump convoluted conspiracy theories such as those typically aimed at BK.
Alan Kirwin
44   Posted 24/02/2010 at 00:04:18

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Sorry Gareth, looked again a your post but didn’t see one. Point, that is.
Alan Kirwin
45   Posted 24/02/2010 at 00:07:18

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John Jennings, your Gooner pal reflects the views of many. I have friends following Newcastle, Chelsea, Leeds, West Ham, Liverpool (yes, Liverpool) and even Man City who are effusive in their praise or jealousy of Everton. Moyes is the most common reason, but Kenwriight gets plenty of mention in despatches.

He may not be Croesus, or Richard Branson, and he may use throw away remarks that some latch on to with almost autistic pursuit (e.g. 24/7), but he’s also no Ken Bates, or Mike Ashley, or Suliman Al Fahim, or Peter Ridsdale, or Roley Gudjohnssen, or Statler & Waldorf, or a Glazier.

So, to repeat it once again for the avoidance of doubt; Yes, it could possibly be better. But it could just as well be worse, as the above list proves. Until the Kenwright despisers accept that simple notion their views are those of blinkered fools.

And if you do reply :) stick to the point, there’s a good chap.
Phil Bellis
46   Posted 24/02/2010 at 00:49:02

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"Sacking Walter Smith (a decision taken by Kenwright if I recall)"
If you remember, Alan, the fans made that decision...enough was enough
Bill simply served up Walter’s noggin
Roy Coyne
47   Posted 24/02/2010 at 02:31:03

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First like most so called anti-Kenwright fans I don’t hate him I do feel let down though,, I can understand the lack of investment if he has not got the cash,Ican also understand his reluctance to sell the club,but his lies and misleading statements I am sorry I cant forget if Bill is one of us why not tell us the truth.
Christine Foster
48   Posted 24/02/2010 at 05:48:54

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Alan, my term regarding smug complacency is not an individual attack on your comments, I know your views are long stated and in the main we disagree about a number of things such is opinion. The term reffered to the fact that we have / are in the middle of a good run, have beaten Man U and Chelsea and all of a sudden all that was wrong with the club is forgotten or suddenly seen as just a blip.
We are now back to comments such as "He has made a few mistakes.." No, actually some weren’t mistakes they were calculated gambles that didn’t pay off.
Funny that they should be seen as mistakes rather than lies or gagging now..
As for ridiculously sweeping statements it cuts both ways depending on your perspecitive.

If you read what I said carefully, you will see I have not said that BK doesn’t deserve credit, I never have said that. What I also said was that he never accepted the brickbats when he stuffed up or misled. He is not stupid, not gullable as some make out by saying he has made a few mistakes, I think BK has known what he has been doing all along and yes DM has fashioned a team that sometimes can play brilliantly and sometimes painfully badly and so takes ther plaudits when given but please don’t be so ridiculous to try to gloss over the "mistakes" because of the relative success.
For me I would have more respect ( not much more but) if BK stood up and said "I f***d up, sorry guys." but I won’t hold my breath
Chad Schofield
49   Posted 24/02/2010 at 06:43:14

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Absolutely ridiculous.
I’ll give Kenwright credit for the end of DK when he takes full responsibility for "The Big Freeze" or comes out and categorically admits that he is to blame for Toyota’s problems. He had as much to do with those problems as he has had to the wonderful solution we have found ourselves in after the death of the supposedly sole egg in the basket that those with vision berated others about when they dared to question - because it was our only option.

So here we sit having picked up a few points and on the cusp of fourth place (!), surging out of recession(!), with all those who are that much more informed than us mere luddites congratulating a man who’s lied to us all (but only for our own good) having the foresight to see the minor fiscal blip that was the Credit Crunch, tieing us up in a exclusivity deal and inquiry just long enough to see us through. He has obviously and rightly remained tight lipped after DK’s planned collapse, not wanting to rub our unwashed noses in the dirt. But should we get just a few more results our way, Blue Bill will surely be ready to come out to his adoring fans emblazoned in the blue Liverbird to enchant us all with a few more well chosen words.
Chad Schofield
50   Posted 24/02/2010 at 06:43:14

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Absolutely ridiculous.
I’ll give Kenwright credit for the end of DK when he takes full responsibility for "The Big Freeze" or comes out and categorically admits that he is to blame for Toyota’s problems. He had as much to do with those problems as he has had to the wonderful solution we have found ourselves in after the death of the supposedly sole egg in the basket that those with vision berated others about when they dared to question - because it was our only option.

So here we sit having picked up a few points and on the cusp of fourth place (!), surging out of recession(!), with all those who are that much more informed than us mere luddites congratulating a man who’s lied to us all (but only for our own good) having the foresight to see the minor fiscal blip that was the Credit Crunch, tieing us up in a exclusivity deal and inquiry just long enough to see us through. He has obviously and rightly remained tight lipped after DK’s planned collapse, not wanting to rub our unwashed noses in the dirt. But should we get just a few more results our way, Blue Bill will surely be ready to come out to his adoring fans emblazoned in the blue Liverbird to enchant us all with a few more well chosen words.
Ciarán McGlone
51   Posted 24/02/2010 at 10:21:34

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"2. Ciaran - funny how views you disagree with can never be viewed as fair. Is there actually a limit to your pedantic petiness? It seems not. And what in the name of fuck is backing patting?"

-------------------------------

Of course views I disagree with can be fair....Of all the things I wrote you choose this to respond to!

Back Patting: The action of metaphorically patting someone on the back. An effusive act of obsequious sycophancy. i.e a pat on the back.

If you need to know the meaning of any other common expressions Alan, don’t hesitate to ask.
Ciarán McGlone
52   Posted 24/02/2010 at 10:25:27

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Haha....Alan...the sheer audacity of you telling anyone to ’stick to the point’ -

Your argument is premised on 3 arguments, which do not address one single facet of Bill’s tenure...

1) ’Be careful what you wish for’ - a cogent argument when trying to convince a five year old that they’re asking santa for too much..

2) ’A luvvy popularity contest’

3) ’What your Arsenal mates think’


Well, who the fuck can argue with that reasoning...get the bunting and champagne out..

Mike Parry say’s Bill’s great, some other teams fans who have no considered interest in his actions have given him passing praise....and he’s not Joseph Stalin....

Praise the Lord!
John Jennings
53   Posted 24/02/2010 at 12:37:38

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Alan - I thought I had stuck to your original point. That being that things could have been much worse without BK (could have been a Ridsdale or Storrie) and that we may find ourselves ultimately stronger as a result of not spending gazillions on foreign mercenaries.

Appreciate no more condescending remarks - thanks.
John Jennings
54   Posted 24/02/2010 at 12:47:10

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Ciaran - have a look back at what I said about my Gooner mate. Nowt to do with BK, DM, Bully Beef, The Toffee Lady or anyone else. Just the fact that he admired (and envied) our pool of home-grown players compared to his own team.

I was probably not sticking to the point :)
Dave Randles
55   Posted 24/02/2010 at 12:21:57

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Alan Kirwin.

I struggled to read your post once mate, never mind twice - why use two paragraphs when twelve will do?

And talking of missing points - I’m not sure that accusation can be levelled at me, I got your point entirely and just thought you were talking nonsense - your point was that Kenwright took a gamble by replacing ‘Disappointing Walter’ with David Moyes. Can you explain to me exactly what element of that constituted a gamble? We were embroiled in a relegation battle (again!) anyway so his decision to bring in the most highly regarded young manager in the game hardly ranks as ’make or break’ does it?

Oh, and for the record, I don’t despise Kenwright, not at all, I just struggle to relate to liars.
Ciarán McGlone
56   Posted 24/02/2010 at 12:59:23

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"Oh, and for the record, I don’t despise Kenwright, not at all, I just struggle to relate to liars."

----

I’ll subscribe to this as well. There seems to be a lot of emotive reference to fans who ’hate a man they’ve never met’...

Another red Herring in my opinion.
Duncan McDine
57   Posted 24/02/2010 at 13:25:28

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Can anyone remember a topic that has divided Evertonians this much in our history? Whatever side of the fence you sit on, there are two important facts.

Regardless of if you love him or hate him (or somewhere inbetween like me), Everton FC have:

1. Become much better on the pitch.
2. Seen little improvement off it.

Whichever fact is more important to you, will probably determine your feelings about BK.
Gavin Ramejkis
58   Posted 24/02/2010 at 13:54:17

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Interesting verbosity relating to not being able to hate people you have never met. History is littered with heroes, villains and religeous deities that the majority of people have never met, would you belittle their chosen view of those be it love or hate or worship?
Phil Bellis
59   Posted 24/02/2010 at 14:10:22

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True Gavin

Bill Kenwright has previous
I mistrust him
My privilege
I hate Pol Pot and Pot Noodles
Eugene Ruane
60   Posted 24/02/2010 at 12:14:10

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It’s a funny thing with Bill.

We all (or many of us) have expressed our feelings on BK over the years.

It seems to come down to "he’s alright" or "he’s a bullshitter".

As someone in the "he’s a bullshitter" camp, I started to think about how and why we reach the decisions we do.

More or less the same ’evidence’ for all of us, yet polar-opposite opinions on the man.

How can that be?

Well...um...Just humans being humans is the best I can come up with.

During the 1930’s, Winston ’Vin viz Vinnie!’ Churchill was consistently, by all sides, denounced as a dangerous war-monger, because he pointed out that Germany was breaking the terms of the treaty of Versailles and re-arming.

Eventually of course (ie: 1939) they believed him.

"SO YOU’RE COMPARING HITLER BLAH......"

Save your outrage.

(cue music from Kung Fu monastery scene)

No I’m not grasshopper, I’m merely pointing out that everything is fine......... until it’s not. And everyone is right.... until they’re wrong

For instance, things are fine for most blues on Wed 24th Feb, because we’ve recently beaten Chelsea and Utd.

If we get beat by Sporting on Thurs 25th however, things won’t be fine.

They’ll be very UN-fine and there’ll be angry rants about how Moyes got his tactics/substitutions/selection etc wrong.

It’s proof that our species has a built-in, ’pain blocker-outer’.

As long as things are going well THIS minute, we have the ability to block out past pain and not to dwell on what horribleness might lie ahead.

It’s a good thing. It means individuals can basically function without negative past experiences affecting today’s performance (in work, in relationships, on holidays, etc)

We can also concentrate on what needs doing now without worrying about what MIGHT go wrong in the future.

As I say, for the individual, this is a terrific asset.

However, for organisations (governments, banks, football clubs) not only is it not an asset, it’s suicide.

And that’s my problem with Bill.

He’s the head of an organisation yet behaves as if he isn’t

He treats Everton the way I treat my body.

I know in the past ciggies have contributed to the death of loved ones.

I know in the future they’ve a real good chance of killing me.

But right this minute?

I feel great, so.....CLICK! "Aaaaahhhhh!!"

Now IF I’m right about my future (or lack of it) fine.

There might be a few tears at my funeral ("sniff - he owed me 70 nicker, I’ll never see that again!") but as I don’t have children or a wife, my smoking/health is more-or-less my business.

Bill’s business on the other hand is ALSO my business and yours.

Thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) around the world are affected by what he does and doesn’t do.

And what he does is talk bullshit, spoof, grin and, put off and/or wave away anything ’nasty’.

All acceptable behaviour....if you’re a 15 year-old, fantasist, Tom Pepper who hasn’t done his homework but...

As for those who sing his praises, ignore his lies, turn a blind eye to his bullshit?

I can only guess

Possibly cut from the same cloth, or just naive, or people who only see ’the good’ in people.

I know nothing I say will convince them I’m right, just as I know my ears are deaf to their claims that Bill is a decent, misunderstood, great Evertonian.

I don’t KNOW and can’t say for sure that it’ll eventually end in tears with Bill, but based on the past and the present, that’s what I believe.

I think Popeye summed it up for all of us.

"I yam what I yam"
Phil Bellis
61   Posted 24/02/2010 at 15:11:40

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Fair comment, EJ

I think Jim and Hilda Bloggs would’ve believed and trusted in Bill, wholeheartedly
Max Main
62   Posted 24/02/2010 at 15:11:33

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That’s some liberal use of the return key right there.

Personally I don’t see what all the fuss is about. He’s poor, sure, but he’s alright. I’d much rather have an Everton fan in charge than some foreign jester. And he leaves the football to Moyes. Seems to give Moyes whatever money’s there. Could be a lot worse.

I think y’all need to calm down.
Ciarán McGlone
63   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:02:06

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EJ,

Take a bow. Simply superb. Wit of the highest order.
Ste Traverse
64   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:30:12

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I'll second Ciaran’s comments.
Alan Kirwin
65   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:19:56

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Apologies Christine. Well said & almost always respect your input, however opposed we are occasionally. Fair dinkum.

Aah Ciaran; here we are AGAIN; so we have now established that your original jibe about fairness was indeed bollocks. Contrary views can indeed be fair, particularly when argued fairly and offering both pros and cons. Some of us do that.

It’s also apparent that you have zero regard for anybody else’s opinion if it contradicts yours. Mike Parry? the relevance of which is? I am talking about widely respected print & broadcast journalists in the Independent, Guardian, Times, Telegraph, BBC. Some of the most exprienced and inisghtful people in & around the game. But you mention Mike fucking Parry. Do you actually intend to be so cretinous?

Says everything about you old boy. You don’t even begin to try to understand why so many successful people who actually KNOW Kenwright, and football, and business, speak out in his favour. The fact you you are singularly incapable of stretching your mind to inform your arguments is a pity. It would make your input so much more valuable than the pompous pseudo-literary riddles that usually populate your posts.

Dave Randles -You make no no sense & life’s too short. Stick to the boy’s pen.
Alan Kirwin
66   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:39:55

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Wise words Max Main.

I wonder who turned the heating up?

Take a bow Ramejkis & Randles. Two posts, plenty of emotives, zero points. Seems to have become a free for all from thereon in. Just for a change :)
Alan Kirwin
67   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:45:18

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I think we all know what back-patting is. Not sure any of us have come across backing patting though. Sorry Ciaran, I’m trying not to laugh writing this. I mean, you have to laugh don’t you?
Ciarán McGlone
68   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:48:16

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Yes Alan....of course we have to laugh.

Especially whenever I see you are still promoting yourself as the king of fairness...



In the interest of fairness, of course Alan...

Can you explain to me - why the words of a journalist..any journalist you like...should be more valuable than my own opinion?

And indeed why you find it...more valuable than your own opinion...

If you could do it in less than 20,00 words - that would be great - wouldn’t want to unleash one of my ’pompous pseudo-literary riddles’...
Pete Gunby
69   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:44:17

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Alan, Dave Randles made perfect sense. Removing Smith was an easy decision. The ire directed at BK has nothing to do with that and everything to do with all that has happened since.
BK gets credit for hiring Moyes and for sticking with Moyes. He is despised for the steady stream of misinformation and misleading wordplay. That you can ignore those character flaws and support him is up to you. For those of us who see him as an obstacle to Everton’s progress, the story is different.
Brian Wilson
70   Posted 24/02/2010 at 16:56:01

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Nice try Max but I think this site somehow attracts posters too used to playing footy without the ball.
Lyndon I guess you’re playing extra time?
Richard Dodd
71   Posted 24/02/2010 at 17:13:17

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Blue Bill-simply the best. Always was and always will be! Long,long may he rign.
David Thomas
72   Posted 24/02/2010 at 17:11:53

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Pete Gunby

How exactly is Bill Kenwright stopping our progress?
Gareth Humphreys
73   Posted 24/02/2010 at 17:14:15

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Alan Kirwin, he is a proven Liar and has riddled the club with debt.

Are these things ok with you?

Your Mrs must have a great life on your credit card.

"Just off out with the girls Al"

"OK love - have a good night"
Pete Gunby
74   Posted 24/02/2010 at 17:18:07

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Dave Thomas
Maybe too slow a progress would have been more accurate a statement from me. The answer would be ...no new investment, no Kings Dock, no GP renovations, no stadium site in the city, inability to buy needed players each season, shoddy marketing of the team. How is he stopping progress? - he is the boss, he is responsible!
David Hallwood
75   Posted 24/02/2010 at 18:22:26

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Gareth Humphreys states that kenwright has "riddled the club with debt" have a look at this website:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/23/premier-league-clubs-europe-debt

And premier league owe more than all Europes teams combined, despite having higher revenues, so Kenwright isn’t the only one
Dan Brierley
76   Posted 24/02/2010 at 18:12:16

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Gareth, would you prefer the club did not spend any money in the last ten years?

’Hey Gareth, why do you still support Everton even though they are in the Conference?’

’Doesn’t matter mate, your club is in debt, at least we aren’t’

That might be your cup of tea Gareth, but I personally prefer the team as we are now.
Dan Brierley
77   Posted 24/02/2010 at 18:39:41

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Okay, I think the battle lines are quite clear. Its futile to believe that any of us will change our positions. But I would like to ask a question to those who think BK is a terrible chairman:

Which chairman would you prefer at Everton and why?

We had a similar exercise with the ’Moyes out’ crowd, who ironically seem to be in full show on this thread also. The suggestions that most frequently came out were Mark Hughes and Martinez. So I am looking forward to some more ’who would be better’.
Gareth Humphreys
78   Posted 24/02/2010 at 18:59:08

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David , the thing that report fails to say is that Chelsea & Man CIty’s debt is now Zilch, Nada, nothing as the respective owners have turned their debt into equity. The reason ? Because these clubs would have been kicked out of european competition when the EUFA rules are brought in about debt
Guess which club are in danger of being hampered by that rule? Well here is a clue - they play their home games at L4.

This brings me on to Dan Brierly’s point. I haven’t got a problem with BK being skint. No problem whatsoever. I do have a problem with him stating he can’t find a buyer, despite searching "24-7" for investment when the planning report for proves that to be an outright falsehood.

This club is moving forward on the pitch due to David Moyes’s astute management. How ironic that things off the pitch are going the other way due to his boss.
James I'Anson
79   Posted 24/02/2010 at 19:31:39

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Dan
How about Randy Lerner.
Successful businessman.
Looks at Villa as a long term investment.
Has experience running sporting institutions.
Wanted Everton but Bill felt he was not worthy.
Dan Brierley
80   Posted 24/02/2010 at 19:23:27

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Gareth, how wrong can you be?

David Moyes gives his Chairman a wish list, and it is the chairmans job to bring the players in. This has been done, by increasing the debt proportionately to the clubs increasing turnover. Its also the Chairman who has tied in some of our best players on long term contracts, not David Moyes.

The final point I would like to make, is to those who say that the success is only down to Moyes, and not the board. Moyes HIMSELF has continually praised the support he has from the board. What makes you think you know more about Everton than the manager himself? Just how many clubs have you run exactly?
Dan Brierley
81   Posted 24/02/2010 at 19:43:32

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James, what makes Lerner any better than Kenwright? Villas debt is higher than ours, and their wage to turnover ratio is higher than ours. They make more of a loss each season than we do.

And as for your last comment, why make up lies?
David Thomas
82   Posted 24/02/2010 at 20:50:06

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Dan,

You took the words right out of my mouth.
What exactly has Mr Lerner done at Villa that seems to make him this great chairman that everyone should aspire to.
Dave Randles
83   Posted 24/02/2010 at 20:50:45

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Pete Gunby,

Thank you, most of my point - but I wouldn’t necessarily say BK is an obstacle to our progress, but his perpetual bullshit I cannot bear, and yes, in my view, this makes him easily dislikeable.

Alan Kirwin,

You know what really pisses me off about you and you Daily Mail reading ilk?

The fact that there is no middle ground - I am anti-Kirkby so in your distorted view I am a luddite. I don’t fall over swooning at the very mention of BK’s name - so in your distorted view I despise him.

For god’s sake man, cut the condescending, patronising piffle and read what people actually write.
Gareth Humphreys
84   Posted 24/02/2010 at 21:46:24

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Dan, I think you are giving lessons on being wrong there kiddo.

The debt as a relation to the turnover? You’ll have to talk me through that one as generally what lenders want to secure their money against is not fluctuating turnover figures. This isn’t Ocean Finance.

Secondly are you honestly saying that the players contracts are down to BK and not David Moyes? Wake up kiddo. As you will recall from the Lescott Saga, David Moyes famously said that he made the decision round here, no-one else.

Finally, your last little nugget about Moyes praising his boss. He’s not going to be in a job much longer coming out and slagging old short arms, deep pockets... now is he?

David Ellis
85   Posted 25/02/2010 at 02:16:00

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Some random points/answers

1. Gareth H - debt in relation to turnover. An example. You have a debt of GBP 10,000 with interest payments (at 5%)of GBP 500 per year. If your total revenue (tunover) is only GBP 1,500 per year then that amount of debt is going to be a big problem as one third of your income is needed to service it. If your revenue is GBP 1million a year then its not going to be a problem. Of course even at higher revenue levels you can still lose money, but you will be losing money for reasons other than a crippling debt burden. So in deciding whether to criticise BK on debt levels you should look at the debt to revenue ratio - not just the total amount of debt.

2. Opinions of others - even journalists or fans of other clubs. If you want to have fair and accurate view of the world you should take into account the views of others. Not necessarily agree with them, after all they are often as equally ill informed as we are. However they will have different perspectives and different bits of information on which to base their views - like actual knowledge of working with BK or DM. So collectively these views should be taken into account. To ignore all other opinions (as some on this site appear to argue for) is dangerous and reduces the quality of decision making.

3. Ground move - has this issue magicaly gone away? No. Was it created by BK? No. This remains a real problem. What do the BK bashers think our options are? 30,000 all seater stadium on Goodison footprint; playing to a ground with only 3 stands? I love the Old Lady but something has to give. Kirkby was not ideal but the alternatives look pretty unideal as well. This divisive issue is not going away.

4. BK has failed to sell the club. And when new investors were falling over themselves to come into football it looked to me like BK was simply not really trying to sell. And this was hugely frustrating as I thought this was holding the club back. However as the poor quality and dangerous nature of the new owners at other clubs has been exposed I think we are lucky that BK has held on to his train set and not sold out when he could have made a lot of money. The value of football clubs has now dropped a lot so he has missed his chance -but I don’t think it was ever his intention to sell.

5. BK’s competence as a leader/manager. Well he does say a lot of daft things. I suspect he needs to rely heavily on a good CEO, and may not have had that with Wyness. But if he can keep DM happy and motivated without taking on a dangerous level of debt then that is something. Personally I would prefer a more professional type with a clearer vision and more consistent level of communciation etc. But BK is on balance an above average chairman.

Gareth Humphreys
86   Posted 25/02/2010 at 07:29:05

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David, my point was that Dan was stating we had borrowed against an increase in turnover. We hadn’t - this simply allowed us to service that debt.
James I'Anson
87   Posted 25/02/2010 at 08:07:46

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Dan
Randy Lerner was quoted as saying that he enquired about the availability of Everton.
Bill has frequently been quoted as saying the right Investor hasn’t came along.
Putting 2 and 2 together, either Lerner wasn’t suitable or we’re not for sale hence "INVESTOR"

Also Aston Villa don’t sell thier best players.
Ciarán McGlone
88   Posted 25/02/2010 at 10:01:45

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"2. Opinions of others - even journalists or fans of other clubs. If you want to have fair and accurate view of the world you should take into account the views of others. Not necessarily agree with them, after all they are often as equally ill informed as we are. However they will have different perspectives and different bits of information on which to base their views - like actual knowledge of working with BK or DM. So collectively these views should be taken into account. To ignore all other opinions (as some on this site appear to argue for) is dangerous and reduces the quality of decision making."
-----------------------

What I actually asked....was why I should consider a journalists opinion any more valid than my own..

I didn’t ask for the process of forming an opinion.
Dan Brierley
89   Posted 25/02/2010 at 10:50:16

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Gareth, you do make things really easy for me.

1.) I used the term increasing turnover, you used ’fluctuating’. Let me put it into perspective for you.
EFC Turnover 2002: 38.2 million
EFC Turnover 2009: 79.7 million
I hope this is understandable, it cant be much simpler to be honest. There is no fluctuation, our turnover has more than doubled since the earliest financial report I can find.

2) David Moyes is responsible for the identification of which players should be bought, and which should be sold and when. This has nothing to do with the negotiation of player contract salaries, and prices paid and recieved for players. This is the job of the chairman, not David Moyes.

If you need anything else explaining, feel free to comment.
Dan Brierley
90   Posted 25/02/2010 at 11:09:27

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James, ’was quoted’ by who exactly? News of the World?

’Villa don’t sell their best players’ - Gareth Barry

You still havent explained why he is a better chairman James. All you have done, is that Aston Villa also sold one of their best players.

And not only James, but all the other posters seem pretty quiet also.

’David Moyes/Bill Kenwright is shite, spineless, dithering, lying.. blah blah’

’So who else would you have?’

’erm........’
David O'Keefe
91   Posted 25/02/2010 at 12:31:28

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Its easy to crow about turnover and debt ratios after a couple of wins; lets do that again in the summer when Bill has to sell an important player to keep the banks happy because the club has suffered a credit crunch for the past two seasons that has only been alleviated by doing just that.

How about telling us the positives of BK’s reign, I’ll give you David Moyes for a start. How about giving that a go Dan?

To answer your question, Dan I say Keioc.
David Booth
92   Posted 25/02/2010 at 12:49:19

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Dan: precisely!

As ever, the one, fundamental question the ’Moyes and/or Kenwright out’ brigade cannot provide a definitive answer to is: who would you have in his/their place?

Randy Lerner is oft-quoted, but it’s not the end of the season yet and we’ll reel Villa in before then. And please remind me anyone, when have Villa finished above Everton while he’s been in charge?

As for the likes of Martinez and Hughes... would someone care to nominate them again today?

It’s so, so easy to denigrate and criticise - but all just the usual hot air without a viable alternative.

Sure, neither are perfect - and they’d be ther first to admit it - but they’re Evertonians and are doing a better job than the vast majority of their counterparts.

So oughtn’t we to be proud of their achievements - chief amongst which (in today’s insane football climate), are that we’re not about to go into administration and have a team that’s more than capable of beating anyone they play right now?

As always, it all comes down to who sees the positives and who sees the negatives. Glass more than half-full here...
Alan Kirwin
93   Posted 25/02/2010 at 13:03:26

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Given that some people are either pro, or at worst accepting of Kenwright compared to the alternatives (whatever the are?)... how about the anti Kenwright brigade stop telling us as ad nauseam what they think of Kenwright (we know) and rather than telling us ad nauseam what they don’t want, tell us what they DO want. What exactly is it that they want or wish for?

What would make them stop the incessant slagging off of Kenwright and anyone who even remotely defends him?

Go on chaps, give us something positive to work with. Put something up for debate rather than regurgitating your favourite pejorative words. Make a welcome change.
Gareth Humphreys
94   Posted 25/02/2010 at 13:05:30

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Dan, 2 questions :

(1) Are you on crack?

(2) What is the turnover going to be next year?
David O'Keefe
95   Posted 25/02/2010 at 13:12:59

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Alan, if you're defending the man it is up to you to make a positive case for him. The anti-Kenwrights only have to make a case against him. Simple really. So your resorting to a red herring to shut down any relevant criticism of him.

What I do want Alan is a stadium solution and an improvement in the clubs finances so we don’t have to sell a player to keep the banks off our backs. He has had ten years to solve the clubs stadium/financial problems and failed to do so, Alan, that is why the anti-Kenwrights are on his case 24/7.
Gareth Humphreys
96   Posted 25/02/2010 at 13:19:35

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I’ll go first Alan.
Just a chairman who doesn’t lie and does what he says he will do.
Not a big ask is it?
Phil Bellis
97   Posted 25/02/2010 at 13:28:19

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I am a true Blue
I’m lucky enough to be able to go to the match
I have sat on the bar of the Dublin packet and had my hair ruffled by the Great Man, an army pal of my Dad’s
I have been out drinking (in moderation) with Bally, Jimmy H, Moggsy, Shirley etc
I am a personal friend of Ramon Wilson (get better soon, Ray) and was proud to have Alex Parker as a buddy
Mrs J Gabriel sat on my lap when we shared her seat at the Southampton 2 Everton 5 game
I’ve still got my ’66 songsheet signed by the players
I have showbiz friends and have shared initimacies with ladies as equally talented, intelligent and beautiful as Anouska, Virginia and Jenny
I stand my round
I don’t have sufficient spare money to give to the club what it needs
I think Ian Ross is posting as several persona here
I would be a wonderful Chairman of Everton Football Club - trust me
Dan Brierley
98   Posted 25/02/2010 at 16:00:15

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Gareth, yet another clinical and decisive answer. Bury your head back in the sand buddy. It must be quite a nasty feeling when you get into a discussion and realise that your views are as flimsy as your knowledge about the subject. Then again, when all else fails you can use the ’are you on crack’ line.

So up to now we have had Lerner and KEIOC as suitable replacements for BK. And Gareth has dismissed pretty much every chairman in the world on the basis that lies are unacceptable.
Gareth Humphreys
99   Posted 25/02/2010 at 16:41:07

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Dan, look fluctuating up in the dictionary and come back to me.

When you do, answer the question about what next years turnover will be.

When you do that ask yourself how you can lend against a fluctuating figue.
After you have done that please don’t reply as I don’t want to have to explain it again.
Dan Brierley
100   Posted 25/02/2010 at 17:01:30

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There is no lending against a fluctuating figure. The banks wouldn’t entertain it. The clubs lending is only secured against fixed revenues. Such as a portion of season ticket sales, or TV broadcasting.

I dont get your point about how ’fluctuation’ demonstrates that BK is a bad chairman Gareth. You’ve lost me completely.
James I'Anson
101   Posted 25/02/2010 at 17:50:42

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There’s another contenter Dan.
It seems Phil Bellis is just as qualified as Bill to be our chairman.If Phil has a tendency to tell the truth then that’s a massive bonus.

Also the fact that our turnover has almost doubled is down to the extra revenue we and everyone else receives from Sky.

Finally, Gareth Barry is shit anyway.
Peter Lee
102   Posted 25/02/2010 at 18:22:08

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What does "Ciaran McGlone" translate as in English?
Dan Brierley
103   Posted 25/02/2010 at 19:21:57

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Yes of course James, Gareth Barry was not considered an important part of Aston Villa by the fans. And he certainly wasn’t the player who sold the most shirts with his name on it.

Lets say he was shit, to suit your view eh? And not say ’fair enough, its a good point. Villa also sell their best players’.
James I'Anson
104   Posted 25/02/2010 at 22:03:42

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Danny boy

Who (not necessarily Bill) do you blame for THAT?
James I'Anson
105   Posted 25/02/2010 at 22:09:49

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Also Dan

Who the fuck is your beloved chairman going to sell in order to fix it.

Rodwell, pienaar,Fellaini or maybe we can sell Rooney again?
Phil Bellis
106   Posted 25/02/2010 at 23:44:18

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James, thank you...I was brought up (like, I suspect, was EJ) by Jesuits, and had veracity, compassion, humanity and gentleness unto others beat into me on a daily basis

I know not how to lie (cf Neil Pierce/that Ratner fella)

I am confident I could do a better job as Chairman of Everton Football Club than Bill or Dan (Ian Ross) Brierley.I have vision and a track record in delivering projects
(if you want to to argue, Dan, name your debating venue; anywhere but Lisbon, ta!)

I might also add, as credentials, that, besides the sublime Kate, I am also very chummy with with Luan Peters (Fawlty Towers/ 5000 Volts, Toni Basil, Pattie Boyd and Joanna Lumley
I thank you
James I'Anson
107   Posted 26/02/2010 at 00:35:17

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I agree Phil.
Something about Dan has been niggling me though.
The way Dan defends Bill is like i would defend my family.
Whether they are in the right or not does not matter.
Phil Bellis for chairman.
David Cornmell
108   Posted 26/02/2010 at 01:01:33

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"Living away from Merseyside, I talk mainly to non-blues who, almost to a man (and woman), are amazed to hear of the criticism and vitriol that are aimed at our chairman and manager. We are viewed by the majority as a progressive club, consistently over-performing and graduallly becoming stronger..."

That's because these people believe football started with the Premier League, pal. For them we were crap; now slowly coming good... whereas, for those who know their history, it’s a little bit different.

By any objective measure, Kenwright has been awful. During his tenure, we’re trophyless, with no new ground and an ever expanding debt. "Mike Ashley / Glazers / me grandma would have done worse!" is the cry. Aren’t things bad enough?
Ste Traverse
109   Posted 26/02/2010 at 03:14:58

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Nothing will ever change off the pitch as Bill has no intention of giving up ’living the dream’. You can bet in 5 years time we’ll still be talking about the stadium situation and us always being skint while he continues to attend games as ’chairman’ and does,er,not much else.
Gareth Humphreys
110   Posted 26/02/2010 at 08:02:53

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Dan Quote 1 "This has been done, by increasing the debt proportionately to the clubs increasing turnover"

Dan quote2 "There is no lending against a fluctuating figure. The banks wouldn’t entertain it".

Just proving a point Dan that, like Blue Bill you are talking bollocks.
Gavin Ramejkis
111   Posted 26/02/2010 at 10:04:12

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Kirwin surprised you didn’t feel the need to patronise me with an "old boy". You deem the posting as pointless but with all respect you claimed it impossible to hate someone you have never met, my response being that the panet is full of people of all creeds who hate, love and worship characters they have or never will meet so your claim is wrong.

Maybe you can’t respond as I haven’t taken ten paragraphs to make the point or maybe you have no response, but don’t claim there is no point as I responded to your concept of being unable to hate without having met someone.
Tom Martin
112   Posted 26/02/2010 at 15:26:17

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"We are where we are because of David Moyes, and despite BK, who has failed to take the management of the club forward"

I’m sure there are many PL Chairmen who would have sacked Moyes long ago during one of the terrible runs of form that we’ve had a few of over the years. How many times have the fans been calling for Moyes’ head and Kenwright’s stuck with him, and so far each decision to do so has been vindicated. So to say that we are where we are is due to Moyes and despite Kenwright is wide of the mark.
Christine Foster
113   Posted 27/02/2010 at 22:00:08

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Bill Kenwright was in the right place at the right time for Everton football club. A blue with hope and passion and some influential friends. For that I am thankful and I do realise that at the time it was what we needed. So was David Moyes.

But football, like life, doesn’t stand still and yesterdays achievements are just that. Progression means change, we had fallen well below what I and many others would have loved to see from our players as the standing of the club fell in the eyes of the world. Some of that was presided over during and before BK reign but in the past few years Moyes has fashioned a team capable of inconsistently producing brilliant football that warns my heart and drives me mad at the same time.

In that time too we have seen BK blunder his way through one new business venture to the next, watched as he aligned our future with Tesco and sought to silence or put down any dissent, comment or criticism in any that became distasteful, culminating in a split in the fanbase of the club.

That was a failure of leadership, poor communication and error of judgement. Yet the team continued to grow despite the growing dissent amongst the fan base.

Today we are thankful for where we are and how we got there and the importance played by David Moyes and yes, Bill Kenwright.

But progression dictates change, what got us to this level may not be what gets us to the next. Nothing is forever. Managers pull apart teams to rebuild, players move on. We recognise that the players we had did a good job but to improve we have to move them on.

With Bill Kenwright the same may be said. He was a man for the time. He has his shortcomings which have been exposed in these forums all too often. His actions and comments have undermined his credibility to take this club forward.

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