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FAN ARTICLES

A Constant Issue

By Chris Butler :  06/04/2010 :  Comments (93) :
Apologies to supporters who disliked previous articles about standing and atmosphere at Everton matches but I’ve tried to ignore constant complaints and requests for me to inform other supporters about an issue that is affecting a large but oppressed minority in our large support.

After hearing that Everton have denied our request for a standing/singing area, I felt that something had to be done unofficially to inform supporters about the issue. As the club do not allow supporters to put things in the programme (and believe me, many have tried), I feel compelled to write about this issue here on ToffeeWeb.

After the awful atmosphere in Everton’s recent games, I feel Everton’s vocal support has come to an all-time low. At Wembley last season, I was (like many supporters) delighted with the way our supporters behaved and the way the supported the team in both games. The papers quite rightly praised Everton’s deafening support both inside and outside the stadium.

But this season, with a few exceptions, the atmosphere has been frankly awful in the majority of fixtures, both home and away. There have been a few incidents that I believe have emphasised this point.

At Bolton, there a man who was in his late 50s with his friends who had similar opinions to me but expressed them differently. He basically just started shouting obscenities about how poor our support was and what were they doing going to the games if they don’t bother to support the team away from home?

It almost brings a tear to my eye (as it does for many other Blues) to be out-sung home and away most games. Away from home, I believe I’ve lost my battle and our away support will remain muted for a long time to come with the way things are going. But at home, I believe it’s a lot easier to sort out.

For years in our awful period, Everton’s support was terrific — I can remember the atmosphere being terrific against Sunderland when we came from a goal behind to win 2-1; as I was relatively young then, I couldn’t see much of the game as I didn’t want to risk standing on my seat and going flying. I thought one thing as I left the ground that day — why supporters who wanted to stand the whole game h couldn’t ave their own area of the ground so everybody could be happy?

I’ve always found there is a better atmosphere when supporters stand... and anyone who disagrees should go in an area where supporters stand for 90 minutes — you’ll find the atmosphere is far better than when people are seated. The problem is, whereas many clubs listen to their supporters and allow standing/singing areas, Everton have been reluctant to listen to us.

West Ham, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United, Manchester City, and Arsenal all have designated singing/standing areas. If other clubs can do this — why can’t Everton?

As Everton rarely sell out at home, why can’t the club allow an area of Goodison Park to become a standing/singing area where like-minded supporters can get together without fear of being ejected or attacked by other supporters?

I still can’t understand why supporters aren’t allowed to get together around similar people to themselves and create an atmosphere without affecting other supporters. The problem in the Gwladys Street is that many areas are diluted with non-singers who previously would have moved seats when attendances were far smaller. This means that many supporters cannot stand and sing comfortably and they have families and elderly people around them.

It has been talked about that either Block 4 of the Gwladys Street end will be made into a singing area or vocal supporters will move to Block 8 as this is usually the least popular part of the Gwladys Street. But it’s very hard to discuss this issue when the club and other supporters do not back you.

Many supporters back this but cannot get together. All I ask is that supporters will back us as the club have no intention of listening to us. It actually benefits the club and the fans so I only ask that you and they listen to us.

Reader Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
1   Posted 06/04/2010 at 17:12:31

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Much better article than some of your earlier stuff on this subject, Chris. Personally, I have always believed that the atmosphere in the crowd is a direct result of what is happening on the field... and if the last game is anything to go by........ well, enuff said!

So you asked to be listened to... but forgive me if it seems that, in itself, is not actually achieving anything. It seems the club has rejected the latest request — perhaps it would be helpful to provide a narrative on what was done, how it was packaged, who was approached, where any meetings held, who made the final decision...etc. Then people would have something more tangible to consider.

I also think you need a plan of continued action if you are really going to secure a change. It's not easy, and we will provide web airtime for you, as long as the campaign is done sensibly.

Good luck!
Nick Armitage
2   Posted 06/04/2010 at 19:02:58

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Hi Chris, some valid points about the overall atmosphere but I agree with Micheal that the atmosphere in the crowd is a direct result of what is happening on the field. We get animated when there is something at stake and that sadly isn't the case as this season draws to a close.

I think this obsession with singing is typical of the new breed of Sky fan and I am sorry but I don't subscribe to it. What next? The next step is some knobhead with a bass drum to whip us all into a 'frenzy'.

I go to Goodison Park to watch Everton. If I wanted to sing I would join a choir.
David S Shaw
3   Posted 06/04/2010 at 19:20:55

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Further proof that Everton don't care about our support only our money.

The atmosphere is being stifled because of Everton failing to address this issue after reserved seating came in.

If anyone thinks that an atmosphere can only be produced when the action on the pitch is good is talking rubbish.

We used to always start off each game with an atmosphere starting before we kicked off so that kills that point doesn't it? The worst games the atmosphere would always live on for at least 20 minutes into the match minimum.

A good performance does help, of course it does, but it is far far from being the exclusive criteria.

Everton need to get their finger out.


Andy Morden
4   Posted 06/04/2010 at 19:47:17

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Chris, I think you raise an interesting point. I recently went to the away game at Wolves with my Dad who is a Wolves fan. We got tickets in what is known as the 'South Bank', or the Jack Harris Stand behind the goal nearest the town centre.

I have to admit I was impressed by the ferocity of the Wolves Support. They really got behind their team and cheered anything and everything Wolves did and jeered anything and everything we did.

Now, what I found interesting how bits of play that would have got a jeer or a derisory comment (a block following a crap pass, or a half baked punt forward that put Doyle in with a run down the channel) if it were carried out by Everton at Goodison were applauded and lauded. Perhaps it has something to do with relative expectations of the fans, but it certainly gave the Wolves players impetus and encouragement.

Now, back to your point Chris - every single Wolves fan was stood up in the South Bank (well, apart from the disabled fans at the front). They all had seats, but they all stood up all game. Not a single steward told any of them off. I do not know if this is a formal or informal arrangement, but truly it was a good home atmosphere.

So, sorry Michael, not entirely sure if it is to do with what goes on the pitch, but fan vociferousness is perhaps also is influenced by what is at stake and the willingness of fans to get behind the team?

David S Shaw
5   Posted 06/04/2010 at 19:52:20

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Nick, singing at Everton dates back to before the war mate. Hardly a Sky invention!

And secondly "if I wanted to sing I'd join a choir"? Seriously, did you expect everyone to be laughing at that one?

So what is it, you have a problem with fans wanting to sing at the match do you? Football is a leisure activity.

People enjoy a good atmosphere, if football is solely about what is on the pitch then why not all watch it on tele? Why does it matter if it is Everton we watch? It's about support as well.

Phil Bellis
6   Posted 06/04/2010 at 20:11:53

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David
Even in the 60s, it wasn't all singing and swaying
It depended on the importance of the game, the opposition or even a particular incident - bad tackle, poor refereeing etc

You tend to remember more vividly the games like Milan, the Leeds everybody match, the cup game in `67 etc but there were times when the Street was quite and just observing
I grew up with a gang of lads who congregated around the 2nd barrier behind the Gwladys St goal - the banter, one-off chants, witticisms were memorable
We are now all over the stadium; we never had the foresight -- or the cash -- to block book the seats (was that even possible, then?)
My dad always said the greatest noises he'd heard at Goodison were Dixies 60th, the "What's Our Name?" in `67 and "We Shall Not Be Moved"
Phil Bellis
7   Posted 06/04/2010 at 20:28:33

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"Leeds everybody off" - sorry
David S Shaw
8   Posted 06/04/2010 at 20:35:14

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Phil, there were quiet moments, but 90 minutes worth in every match?

There were were also many average games where there was non-stop singing by the back middle. How can they do that now when they're all spread out?

They need Everton's help but Everton do not care about their, and therefore our support.

They try and sweet talk us saying how they appreciate our support but when it comes down to action and help is asked for they show their true colours. They're simply not interested.
David S Shaw
9   Posted 06/04/2010 at 20:54:29

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Phil, your second point got me thinking, what was that one off chant, hey get of the pitch or something? Stones maybe?
Chris Butler
10   Posted 06/04/2010 at 21:52:00

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Apoligies for the typos as I was trying to send an e.mail at the same time. I'm also sorry I had to put this on ToffeeWeb as i'm sure many of you are not intrested but I have tried other ways but this is the only place I can voice my opinion.
Chris Butler
11   Posted 06/04/2010 at 21:56:01

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Totally agree there, Andy. Wolves are terrific supporters and I have often seen them on TV standing up every match whereas the Everton supporters sat.

Michael to be honest I was reluctant as well to do the piece but I'm frankly sick of having other supporters moan at me to submit an article. Supporters have tryed to enter a dialogue with the club but the club don't seem to listen. Maybe if more fans backed us then the club might be more inclined to listen.

Nick, I'm certainly not a Sky fan, quite the opposite. The AEK fans were terrifc at GP so clearly gettign behind your team is very important in other countries not just England.

John Littler
12   Posted 06/04/2010 at 22:01:22

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Chris, I seem to remember you were trying to arrange a trial or something for the Hull game where season ticket holders in the Gwladys were reseated elsewhere to allow a group of singers / standers to get together. Did you manage to get this to go ahead or is that what Everton refused to do for you?
David S Shaw
13   Posted 06/04/2010 at 22:00:39

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Don't apologise Chris.

I believe that fans are important at a match and that we are more than just cash through the turnstyle.

Obviously Everton and even some fans believe we are a waste of time.

I wonder what the players, managers and sport psychologists think? I must admit I don't ever recall them asking for silence....
David Thomas
14   Posted 06/04/2010 at 22:05:30

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Chris,

whilst i agree with you that getting behind the team and creating a good atmosphere can help the team and whilst, i would also say that i am a fan who has attended every everton first team game home and away for the last 10 years and a lot of the fans who are in the away end with everton who try to get others to sing i would personally cross the road to avoid. For example 2 lads sat behind me at sunderland were arguing with everton supporters to get behind the team and sing and then the next chant out their mouths was "Get your tits out for the lads" to two young girls selling programmes who were about 16 at a push. Also, i think i know the man at Bolton you are talking about sat on the back row of the upper tier. This is more than likely the same man who was swearing at a 60 year old woman a couple of rows in front because she was not singing, then turned to my father and me and was telling us to fuck off.
David S Shaw
15   Posted 06/04/2010 at 22:45:04

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Way to stereotype David Thomas. I'm aware of Everton fans punching fans for standing and singing, City last year springs to mind.

So what point are you trying to make? That you can define a character by whether or not they like to sing?
David Thomas
16   Posted 06/04/2010 at 22:56:13

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No David,

The only point i was trying to make was that based on my experience of watching everton matches live that the majority of the people who have been asking us people to sing are the same people who are normally half pissed.

A further two examples would be Nuremburg away when a fan was shouting abuse at fellow fans for not singing and this was the same man who ended up throwing up on his seat at half time. Also away at lisbon we had someone on our coach telling us we had to sing because the club needed us and this was the same guy who was asleep in his seat the whole second half because he was so pissed.

However, this is only my experiences and so i am sure there is a lot of fans who are not like this i am simply stating what i have seen.

The main thing that bugs me is when people suggest that i am not supporting the club because i am not singing at games. I think my bank account statements and mileage on my car over the last 10 years would suggest i am more a supporter than a lot of the idiots who attend matches and start abusing other fans because they can't attend matches without having a drink. I don't know if you attend away games, but if you did you could not help bu have noticed that the majority of the fans who are singing downstairs before the game are the same fans who are leaving their seats 10 minutes before half time to get the ale in and then coming up 5-10 mminutes into the second half having missed approx 20 minutes of a 90 minute match
David S Shaw
17   Posted 06/04/2010 at 23:19:24

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The majority of people asking you to sing? I could tell you about the countless people with the "shut up knobheads we're not geordies" again I see those disappearing for ages.

You talking as though people who don't sing are a 'better classed citizen'!

People who shout things stand out. You cannot judge their character as a representation of people who also share their interest.
David Thomas
18   Posted 06/04/2010 at 23:30:35

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David,

I have no problem with anyone singing at matches they have paid there money like everyone else. All i am saying is i would personally never tell someone to shut up if they were singing a song to support the team and vice versa i don't expect to be told by other fans that i should be singing
Tom Neeson
19   Posted 06/04/2010 at 23:35:13

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Chris, you make a passionate argument and I respect your viewpoint. I simply believe that standing at a football match is a dangerous part of the past that has been rightly left behind.
David S Shaw
20   Posted 06/04/2010 at 23:37:06

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So we're actually in agreement after all!
Dick Fearon
21   Posted 06/04/2010 at 23:34:11

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What gets my goat is an over-hyped announcer desperately cajoling fans to join in the singing.

I like a good sing along and will join in with the best of em' but not at the beck and call of a pathetic choir master. The whole shebang is embarrassing and cringeworthy, especially when the game itself is boring.

One of my best memories 10 years ago on a trip back home I was at the Anfield for our 1-0 victory. One of my best memories of that trip was thousands of Evertonians without any prompting roaring out 'Super, Super Kev' and at the final whistle taking the mickey out of the kopites with a totally impromtu mass rendering of, 'Always Look On The Bright Side'.

Martin Mason
22   Posted 07/04/2010 at 00:44:07

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The people who want to stand and sing are a minority which doesn't include me. They have no right to do so, the club don't want them to and at the moment they deny me of the right to sit down and watch from the seat that I've paid good money to sit in by sheep like standing when the ball comes over the half way line. I like to sit and watch football. I'd pay more for better facilities rather than less to stand up like we used to in the bad old days.
Dennis Stevens
23   Posted 07/04/2010 at 00:42:18

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Well done, for your efforts, Chris. Although I tend to prefer the Top Balcony on my occasional trips to Goodison Park, I do enjoy standing through the match on occasion & agree that there should be an introduction of standing areas. Obviously the vast banks of terracing of yesteryear will never return, & quite rightly too.

But standing is not in itself dangerous — I manage to achieve this feat every day quite safely — the circumstances in which a reasonable number of people are allowed to stand need to be adequately planned & managed. It seems to me Everton are yet a gain showing themselves to be a club that follows rather than leads, as once used to be the case.

John Maxwell
24   Posted 07/04/2010 at 01:13:01

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This issue isn’t just specific to Everton and Goodison Park... They have the same problems at Old Trafford and The Emirates... So Michael that can't be a direct result of what’s happening on the pitch? Even when I started going to Goodison in the late 80s I found the atmosphere quite dull and we were champions at the time !

The days of the terraces created a better atmosphere at games so I would blame all seater stadia for one of the main reasons... Now everyone is separated around the ground rather than being able to congregate in one area of a terrace.

A dedicated area in any ground is the answer.

I’ve always found the away supporters always sing louder as they are in the minority and it’s a lot more fun giving it to the home supporters.

A good day out at the football for me usually involves a few beers, sometimes quite a few!... singing your heart out and being passionate about your team... Don’t see the point of going there, sitting in silence, moaning all game and being miserable.
Gareth Humphreys
25   Posted 07/04/2010 at 08:34:44

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Chris, it has been pointed out to you in previous posts that the sole influence on the atmosphere is what is happening on the pitch. That is probably true at most grounds but having been a season ticket holder at Goodison for nearly a quarter of a century I know it is true at Everon.

You said it yourself — "The papers quite rightly praised Everton’s deafening support both inside and outside the stadium." — about last season's Cup Semi-Final. This was in an all-seater ground with no designated "singing" areas.

Wimbledon in 94 was the most intimidating atmosphere I have felt at any ground and it only had 3 sides — why? Because everyone knew it was important and as such were up for it.

Wigan at home on a Monday night with nothing riding on it will not create an atmosphere, even if you have free ale and song sheets in a standing/singing area.

Derek Turnbull
26   Posted 07/04/2010 at 08:56:52

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Atmosphere can help fans attach themselves to a stadium. Something that younger fans who have rarely seen anything of note have struggled to do.

I wonder if Everton's attempts to stifle the atmosphere are to stop the younger fans attaching themselves to Goodison?
Derek Turnbull
27   Posted 07/04/2010 at 09:00:27

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Martin Mason - the singing area has not been introduced though? So your complaints negate your own argument for not having such an area introduced. So a designated area for like minded fans to stand up in would actually improve your enjoyment of the game. If only Everton cared about what fans want though, eh!
David S Shaw
28   Posted 07/04/2010 at 12:36:11

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What happens on the pitch is NOT the sole influence on an atmosphere. If that was the case then it would be impossible to have an atmosphere when the ball was not in play. eg before a match.

Also, are we trying to say that there was absolutely no atmosphere when we were rubbish in the 50s, 70s, early 80s...etc??

A nothing game (not that I know what a nothing game is, preseason?) may not be much to some people in the Main Stand who have seen it all, but it is a big game especially to some of the younger ones in their teens and 20s who have yet to have their spirits crushed after years false dawns!

Every match was more special when you were younger due factors like atmosphere, so let them be passionate, they can't be as passionate when their surrounded by well us despirited moaners!

They need to congregate, they want to sing, they're not asking for much are they??



Rob Young
29   Posted 07/04/2010 at 12:34:45

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Davis Shaw already mentioned games used to start off with an atmosphere.
Nowadays they have music playing over the tannoy system at such ruduculous volume that it has become impossible to generate any atmosphere before the game.
Last season Stoke City tried it at Goodison and something you could overhear their chants over the music and it sounded great.

Maybe the club should just stop playing any music from the moment the teams go back in from their warming-up and let the fans create an atmosphere right untill the start of Z-cars
Martin Mason
30   Posted 07/04/2010 at 13:29:02

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Derek, I'm not sure what you are saying because it has no link to my post. I don't want to see a standing or singing area if there's any chance that it could spoil my view of the game wherever I buy a ticket. If it's to sing the type of songs thet many fans want to sing then I wouldn't want to see one at all.

I do recognise that the wants of younger people are different to mine as I head toward 60 but I get pissed off now because I can't watch from lower Gwladys street because people in the middle stand up.

Surely though there is no link between standing and being able to generate an atmosphere though? Goodison is a very poor ground accoustically though and nothing like grounds with large covered areas like the large banks at Wolves used to be. We have always been much better at atmosphere at away games during bour infrequent good spells.

Sorry anyway, I don't want to sound like a killjoy but I like all seater stadiums and believe anybody standing throughout the game spoiling the view of even one person wanting to sit in his purchased seat should be thrown out and even prosecuted. All seated stadiums were introduced because the game couldn't manage large standing areas without people getting killed periodically.

If my concerns can be addressed then brilliant, I'd support it
Derek Turnbull
31   Posted 07/04/2010 at 14:23:51

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Martin, yes generally same view as mine only I'd want to be in it, you wouldn't. This would benefit people like yourself just as much as it would benefit the singing fan. Fans like different things about the match so there should be choice. The current format isn't working as we have both mentioned.

Fans will stand in front of their seat, they have done since 1991 and they will in the next 20 and more years too. A common sense solution is to have an unofficially tolerated area. It will vastly cut down fans standing in front of you.

Again, you are spot on about the acoustics too, however Everton cannot be bothered to improve that either.

NB, by standing area, we're talking in front of your seat — not terracing.
Chris Butler
32   Posted 07/04/2010 at 14:29:23

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Gareth, you've pointed something I agree with, mate, but when we're a few up, supporters stand up, therefore making it easier to create an atmosphere. I agree with what you say to an extent but I believe that atmosphere has benefited many clubs such as Liverpool. Celtic are a prime example of how an a great atmosphere can create terrific results. Look at the Fiorentina game, Bayern Munich, Liverpool... in all three games the atmosphere was terrific; and fine, we lost on penalties... but the players repsonded to our backing.
Chris Butler
33   Posted 07/04/2010 at 14:36:26

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David Thomas, for your benefit and others such as you, a designated area would stop confrontations between different supporters. It's very uncomfortable for the more passionate fan to be surrounded by supporters who do not wish to sing or stand... which means that they don't feel comfortable getting a song going. If vocal supporters were together then more people would feel confident enough to sing. There are bad people on both sides but a designated area would improve things for both sides.
Chris Butler
34   Posted 07/04/2010 at 14:41:32

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Martin, this is the whole point of a designated area. If the area was designated then you would know not to purchase tickets there, meaning you benefit and the singers benefit. This is the exact problem, Martin — you can't have everything your own way. There are plently of other parts of the ground where you can sit yet at the moment there is nowhere for those who wish to stand.

Standing does the improve atmosphere as that's why teams such as Wolves have terrific fans — they stand home and away. I miss being able to celebrate a goal properly and bounce around like you could do. Martin, I feel you are defeating the whole purpose of my article for the benefit of supporters as it's currently not working — meaning many supporters are forced to be sat or stood around supporters they do not wish to be near.

Spencer Ramsay
35   Posted 07/04/2010 at 14:10:01

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I can't sing for toffee but I always want to sing for 'The Toffees' whenever I go to games. I live in the South and have to travel 240 miles for a home game. I always have a buzz when going to the game but sometimes I've found myself in the 'Old Lady' feeling a little short-changed when the atmosphere is non-existant.

I'm not saying that that is all I go for, of course it is not... but a great atmosphere definitely heightens the game experience. I would still watch my beloved team even if I have to sit in silence (and I've done that a few times in the home end of a London away game).

Away games usually seem to generate a better atmosphere in my experience, perhaps because there are a more hard core group of supporters located in a more concentrated area of the ground. Supporters who wish to go and watch the game but don't wish to participate in the singing are completely entitled to do so as far as I am concerned and without any abuse from some unsavoury characters in the crowd (a few of which I've witnessed also)... but equally those who wish to sing should also be entitled to do so.

I don't feel that you actually support your team more just because you want to lift them with songs... nor do I feel that all singers are ill-educated morons (I'm a solicitor — make your own jokes about that!!). It's all about your own personal choice at the end of the day.

I totally support the need for an area at Goodison for singing supporters. I have always felt that all seater stadiums took the edge off the atmosphere at games and would readily encourage properly managed terraced areas at football matches for this purpose. Who can it harm? Surely everyone wins?

Larry Boner
36   Posted 07/04/2010 at 16:39:46

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If you think singing makes the slightest difference to how the team performs, just have a look at the theatrical antics of the gobshites across the park.

Everthing is stage managed, Sky, BBC, or ESPN ready for the pre kick off rendering of YNWA, all swaying back and forth with their flags and scarves, the cameras all focussed on the beaming faces, mouthing words.
Then the game kicks off and silence, until they kick in with FoAR.

Then if they manage to score it starts all over,"magical, nothing like, Anfield is like no where else " etc... and the media lap it up, but many of those spectators are only there for a one off "pilgrimage" buy all the memorabilia they can, get their phots to prove they have been there and then piss off home.

The team on the pitch should instigate the participation of the crowd and standing to sing does not have the slightest effect on the team.

Wolves, when we played them at home they were still singing songs about signing on, etc, Man Utd supporters the same, dont sing about the team, just insult the home fans.

My Dad is 90, season ticket holder all his life, he cant stand for 90 mins, so how would he fare in the current stupidity of people standing in seated areas, grow up and sit down !

Chris Butler
37   Posted 07/04/2010 at 17:12:26

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Larry, I expected somebody to make a comment like yours but, if an area was formed, there would be no need for him to have to stand. if a designated area was formed before the season, then people such as your dad would not have to miss parts of the match.
Larry Boner
38   Posted 07/04/2010 at 17:16:12

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Chris, there are no designated standing areas now and I see thousands of people standing at every game, most disgustingly at Anfield Road, so what do you think will happen if we have a 6,000 capacity area for standing? Are all of the people who now stand going to sit in the rest of the ground? Of course not.

I don't stand in seated areas, I did not do it at Wembley in 1966 or 2009, nor at any away game I went to for all those years, when I had a seat ticket. Are you telling me that Evertonians can't support their team unless they stand?

Until the law changes sit down, because you are not helping your cause by willfully remaining standing in seated areas.

Derek Turnbull
39   Posted 07/04/2010 at 17:31:05

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What laws are that Larry?

I'm only aware of laws against terracing, but no-one's talking about that.

You say that you sat in 1966, aren't you glad you had the choice? We don't.

Why is one person's preference over sitting or standing right or wrong.

Standing up is a normal human action, like scratching your head, lying down, stretching, so don't be taking the moral high ground over your preference.
Chris Butler
40   Posted 07/04/2010 at 17:57:11

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It has changed, Larry... a bit like saying murder is illegal then being allowed to shoot people outside police stations.

Thousands of supporters stand without them getting punished, or the club — which is the rules. As not one club has been punished for persistent standing the FA and other organizations clearly do not care about people such as your dad.

I'm fine if nobody's allowed to stand but I disagree with Evertonians getting told to sit down while Spurs fans stand yards away. Fine... if they take it seriously, make the law transparent as the rule currently has too many inconsistencies.

Manchester City have even dared to openly advertise it in media outlets that the south stand is a standing area and they haven't been punished. Take a look at West Ham, Wolves, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Sunderland they all have standing areas and not one of them have been punished by anybody.

Brian Wilson
41   Posted 07/04/2010 at 17:47:48

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Still regret the imposition of all seater grounds. There are surely many on here who must also have been at GP when we had massive crowds of 50-60+k which generated an atmosphere we never get now. German grounds still have standing areas which work well enough. Still I guess any formal relaxation over standing areas here isn't likely any time soon if ever.

However, under the all-seater regime, the relationship between fans and what happens on the park is more than just sitting prawn sandwich-like waiting to be entertained. Support must also include provision for the chanters and singers. When the crowd spontaneously gets going it can lift the team.
So have much sympathy with Chris about providing opportunities for like-minded supporters to be able to congregate and help spark the influence a crowd can exert. Those who simply want to watch and knit or whatever can still do so.

Larry Boner
42   Posted 07/04/2010 at 19:31:47

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Mr Turnbull and Mr Butler, I have no idea what you are on about, I have not murdered anybody, although I did see murder committed at Heysel and Hillsborough, one by fans and the other by the authorities. If, Mr Turnbull, you can bother yourself, go on to the FLA website and read what the law says regarding standing in seated areas.
If Heysel and Hillsborough had been all-seated then those disasters would not have happened, 135 people would not have lost their lives. Until there is a clear case that standing is better than seating, then shut up and just let people go to the game and be safe.

You have MPs who can carry this forward for you and make a case, change the law and I will be right there with you. When you have done that, come back on to this site and tell everyone things are going to change.

Watching football has changed completely from those years when you were in fear for your life, I have taken my son since he was one year old, he has a seat, which is his own, not standing on tip-toe to see the game; same with my Dad and me.

This is the way I want to watch football in the future; you have a different agenda... pursue it if you will, but do it the right way — don't fuck everyone else up by standing where you shouldn't. Wait till you change the rules... you may get more respect and support.

Derek Turnbull
43   Posted 07/04/2010 at 21:57:40

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The FLA only make recommendation that ground regulations do not allow fans to persitently stand in front of their seat.

That is akin to my wife recommending that visitors take their shoes off before entering our living room.

There are no laws against standing. There are only laws against terracing, which is a completely different subject, so why you are bringing terracing up I haven't a clue.
Chris Butler
44   Posted 07/04/2010 at 22:10:58

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The standing rule hasn't been enforced at many grounds so therfore cannot be taken seriously. They have even admitted standing isn't unsafe. Brian Barwick didn't mention anything about it being unsafe just that what happened if supporters stood in seated areas. So a Liverpool supporter who also happpened to be head of FA doesn't believe standing is unsafe.

Not one person has died from standing in front of their seat and Hillsbrough was a caused by overcrowding not standing. The clubs and the FA are just too lazy to bother to be interested in this issue. If you find any injuries caused by standing that happens nowadays, fine... but don't presume its unsafe because of endless lies you hear.

Chris Butler
45   Posted 07/04/2010 at 22:19:38

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Gareth I remember the Werder Bremen pre-season game a few years ago. There wasn't nothing riding on the game and I think the attendance was about 12,000. Due to this, those who wished to stand and sing could get together without affecting supporters who did not wish to stand. This was what happened in our awful period that supporters stood but supporters who did not wish to stand moved elsewhere as attendances were far lower.

Unfortunately due to season tickets and reserved seating, it's very hard for supporters to get together. in the days on the terracing you could choose where you wanted to go, meaning that supporters that wished to sing always congregated in the centre. There are people around me that wish to stand but are unable to and those who wish to sit.

Martin Mason
46   Posted 08/04/2010 at 01:22:27

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Chris, I disagree. There are large areas of the ground where I can't have my cake at all never mind eat it. I can't see because of people standing up in front of their seats depriving me of the rights I gained in purchasing a seat. I blame EFC 100% for not controlling these people and if necessary banning them from the ground. In some ways I find the singing and standing togetherness a bit animal and tribal like and would enjoy the game as much in silence.

If there is going to be an allocated area then it shouldn't be seated but standing so the more gay fans and those with an operatic leaning can get together and sing. In the Navy and YMCA would be great songs:-) For me, it would be better about 10 miles from the ground in front of a large screen.
John Maxwell
47   Posted 08/04/2010 at 03:47:32

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Martin, you sound like a closet singer... come and join in its great fun and I know you want to.

I personally couldnt sit in silence at a game, nothing better than a bit of banter, camaraderie and a sing song at the end of a dull week at work. Why don't you go to a library instead ? Surely you enjoy an atmosphere, so why not add to it?

Who knows, a bit of vocal support might inspire the team!
Martin Mason
48   Posted 08/04/2010 at 07:16:01

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John, I'm a bit of a closet but I don't know about closet singer. I like library atmosphere too and the odd trip down to the undertakers.

I just thought that, as Evertonians have become bigger complainers than even Citeh fans, I'd complain about something too. Jags out, Moyes out, standers and singers, out, out, out!!
Mike McLean
49   Posted 08/04/2010 at 07:59:51

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Should there be an area for singing, standing etc? Yes, of course. Younger fans especially, but not exclusively, like to get involved vocally.

Perhaps a "Golden Sunset Years" enclosure for the likes of the 90-year-old dad, and a "Waldorf and Stadtler - Bah Humbag" section for Martin might also be appropriate.

Apart from the accoustics of the place, which are ghastly, there has been remarkably little to cheer about over the last 40 years (yes, yes, I know, our glorious period of 3 years aside). Perhaps this has also had an impact on vocal efforts. Not to mention the increasing sense of weariness at the Club's inablity not to BS its fans.
Dave Wilson
50   Posted 08/04/2010 at 10:07:31

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John Maxell, Fair play to you lad, nothing wrong with wanting to to really enjoy your matchday and good luck to you with your campaign, Chris. I`m not a singer or a stander myself (not for the past 25 years anyway) but I love a good atmosphere and I`m sure if the desire is there the club can accomodate everyone.

Perhaps people like David and Martin might like to consider the theatre as their means of entertainment... on second thoughts some of them opera going arl girls can get a little excited (especially after their G+T during the break) so it may get a little rowdy for them.
Chris Butler
51   Posted 08/04/2010 at 10:13:33

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Martin, I yet again disagree with your comments, this whole "join a choir", while it was funny the first time, is wearing thin. Martin, move somewhere else — it's not hard, supporters are allowed to stand so therefore Everton can't deal with them. So therefore you're in the wrong.

I doubt you would have found it so gay when supporters were singing "ten past nine, stabbing time". Singing has always been part of many people's lives — just look at the civil rights movement, the Republican movement and WW2 — do you need any other examples of how singing was used to get people's spirits up?

Martin, hardly anybody stands up in the Gwladys Street... you can choose to go in the more subdued areas, such as near the front of Block 1, 2, 5, 6 or 7. Martin, that's why on average teams win more home games than they do away — because of the extra supporters cheering them on. Look at Celtic, Liverpool, and the Greeks side's record at home — it's fantastic as the supporters are so loud.

As much as it hurts me to say it, when I was listening to the derby on the radio, listening to how loud the RS fans were, I thought about how hard it must be to play in an atmosphere like that.

Martin, all I want to do is support my team without have to fear arrest or face getting into a fight like many supporters have to do each game. This means at away games and home games many supporters give up trying to start an atmosphere as supporters around them shout at them. I miss being able to get a coach with my mates to away games singing and drinking the whole way there and then singing through the whole match.

I would personally prefer that the whole of GS stand up and it was full of passionate supporters and the same with our away support but that's unlikely to happen so I'm trying to change thigns on a much smaller scale.

John Littler
52   Posted 08/04/2010 at 11:20:28

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Chris, I remember you were trying to arrange a trial or something for the Hull game where season ticket holders in the Gwladys were reseated elsewhere to allow a group of singers / standers to get together. Did you manage to get this to go ahead or is that what Everton refused to do for you?
Derek Turnbull
53   Posted 08/04/2010 at 11:46:11

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John Littler, it was that only they went for the game v Fulham.

A couple of fans asked permission from Everton for thirty fans to congregate in a block in an unoccupied obstructed view area for a low key match. The area was at the back and out of the way of anyone wanting to sit.

All Everton had to do was to make 7 tickets on the last row directly behind them not available for sale. This for a match that we will not sell out for.

Also to tell stewards to show those 30 fans the same tolerances to them standing that they give to thousands of away fans every week for the last 15 years.

Everton said No.
Martin Mason
54   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:03:20

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Chris, I stopped going in GS because everybody stands (well that and the foul-mouthed Neanderthals who make it so I can't take my family in there).

Hope you don't mind but I also absolutely disagree that singing is necessary to raise an atmosphere at a sporting event. In rugby it's hardly known, baseball, basketball, American football, football pre 1960s, athletics. They rely on the roar of the crowd to give the performers adrenaline and if professional sportsmen nowadays need singing to get them to perform then they really are in a bad way.

I have read that sportsmen do respond to atmosphere but I have never heard of one that says he responds to singing and singing doesn't equal atmosphere.

As I have said several times you don't have to stand to sing. When I first went to Everton in the 50s there was no singing but the atmosphere was electric with the roar of 60 thousand voices and the stamping in the stands.

For you, it's a big single issue; for me and most others, it's a tolerable irrelevancy. I believe that when I buy a seat at GP that I enter into a contract with EFC to be able to sit down to watch, otherwise I should get a discount for restricted view? Would it be tolerated in the theatre? No it bleeding well wouldn't... so why at a soccer match?

The biggest tingle I ever got from a crowd at a football match was walking into Maine Road in the 1970 season over the top of the banking. I heard the sound go from silence to a crescendo and then a massive roar that could be heard back in Goodison as Everton broke out and Royle scored. Blankness in the Kippax Stand and total mayhem in the Everton fans behind the goal that Everton scored into. 3-0 if I remember right and I can't remember if anybody but the Fat Lady sang.

Don't get too serious about it. In the overall scheme of things it doesn't register.

John Littler
55   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:24:02

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Derek, cheers for the reply. Did they give any reason why?
Derek Turnbull
56   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:21:48

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Martin Mason, I spoke to Dave Hickson once and he said that when the Gwladys sang his song, King of the Transfer List/Teddy Boys, it used used to make him feel 10 feet tall. Confidence is important to a player — do you not agree?

Atmosphere can be roaring on a team, but if everyone around you is quiet then you are less likely to open your mouth and roar aren't you? If there is noise around you then that passion can spread and fans feel shy about opening their mouths and roaring.
Martin Mason
57   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:32:55

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Derek, I've got a mouth like the Mersey tunnel so have no problem in that direction :-) Crowd roar is infectious and is an interaction between the play and the crowd, That is genuine atmosphere though — not singing dirges like "Ev-Ur-Ton", clap, clap, clap... or "You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in".

Don't get me wrong, I have been really moved and inspired by the truly great soccer singing like the Kop singing You'll Never Walk Alone and some very funny ditties 40 years ago when the city was vibrant... The Geordies singing Blaydon Races and West Ham's forever blowing bubbles. All sung beautifully in unison rather than a race to get to the end.

Derek Turnbull
58   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:40:08

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There are good songs and bad songs; some work and some take off; some don't. This and what makes a good song and personal favourites is a different subject though... (and I am tempted to let our conversation drift towards the funny ditties you remember from the 60s!)

However, the spontaneity, the songs that fans have come up with, are being suppressed by Everton preventing like-minded fans to be able to congregate and enjoy themselves.

I even know of fans being kicked out for trying to lead the singing in the Gwladys St! These are normal people who just want to get behind the team they love in their own way and cannot do that because of Everton.
Derek Turnbull
59   Posted 08/04/2010 at 12:53:28

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John, apparently their reasons were flippant, they didn't even properly read the request.

For example, they said that to give them an area it would mean displacing season ticket holders but the area they asked for didn't have any season ticket holders in!

Also, the fans asked if they could not make the 7 seats on the last row available for sale. As the match v Fulham will not sell out, it's not as though Everton lose 7 ticket sales as fans will just buy a seat elsewhere. Everton replied saying that they've sold out the last row so many times a season so can't do that!

The fans mentioned that as standing has happened, does happen, and will happen... at the very least then, would it not be better customer service to control it so that there is no knock-on effect to this?
Chris Butler
60   Posted 08/04/2010 at 13:27:05

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You are right about songs — "It's a Grand Old Team" really does my head in... why we have to sing it, I don't know.

"We shall not be moved" was terrific at Wembley yet I didn't really hear the usual Everton song when the teams came out. The problem is due to the fact neither our away support nor our home support is very good at the moment, so it takes a hell of a lot of bottle to get a song going — never mind a new one.

Another thing which doesn't help the atmosphere is the fact some people arrive right at 3 o'clock, meaning that it's very hard to get songs going before the game.

Martin Mason
61   Posted 08/04/2010 at 13:54:21

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Yes, Chris and it is because the vast majority aren't interested. Soccer now isn't the upwelling of working class togetherness with loyalty of fans, players and club as it once was. It is a leisure activity competing with many other leisure activities and it is as superficial as BB. Have you ever heard such a dreadful moral sapping dirge as "We'll support you ever mooooooooore". Fans should be mown down for singing this.

One thing that is funny is that Everton have never had a song that will always be Everton as "You'll never walk alone", will always be Liverpool or Bubbles will always be West Ham.
Derek Turnbull
62   Posted 08/04/2010 at 15:06:04

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It isn't the upwelling of togetherness but in essence isn't that what some of these fans are trying to do?

Re signature tunes, bit of a tangent subject but no we haven't really. Some would argue "We shall not be moved" or "When you're smiling" in the 70s but does it matter whether it's a signature tune? Fans will feel obliged to sing that song at the end of a great match perhaps? Thus making it a bit cliched?

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that we haven't. Different songs for different occasions is fine by me.
Martin Mason
63   Posted 09/04/2010 at 00:34:02

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What about having recorded songs played through loud speakers at the GS end. The songs are recorded by large groups of fans mid week in a town hall or similar. One person switches songs to suit the situation, also recorded are crowd roars. The person doing the selection is changed every week by ballot. Everybody else just sits down and enjoys the game.

How about cheerleaders to add to the atmosphere?

Btw, above I say that the fans stand in GS, I'm refering to standing to get a better view when the ball comes near, not standing through the match.

"When you're smiling" was probably the worst football dirge ever adopted by a group of fans. I'd love to have seen us adopt something Liverpool and Iconic like a Beatles song such as Penny Lane. Perhaps Helter Skelter would have been more appropriate?
Chris Butler
64   Posted 09/04/2010 at 14:41:59

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It's simple, Martin, that children should not be sold tickets in standing areas, to benefit them and the standers. If there is enough interest and we can get the money together, I think Derek and anyobdy else, we should pass them round at the game. I don't think there's any other way of informing fans as, with there being so many different websites, handing them to Street-enders directly would be the best idea.
John Lloyd
65   Posted 09/04/2010 at 14:46:17

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Martin, its obvious that we have very different opinions.

Chris suggested an area for people to sing if they so wanted to stand there... it's not obligatory. You can sit in one of the other 20,000 seats at the game?? But, as you have already said, you don't go any more because of 'neanderthals' (nice generlisation by the way).

I sit by kids, women, older fellas, lads. We have a laugh, I do think the atmosphere has been down this year & would be totally behind the Gwladys having a dedicated area... it sort of already is for the more vociferous fans. AnD fair play to 'em!

Derek Turnbull
66   Posted 09/04/2010 at 16:21:47

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Chris, did you get an e.mail asking about where you would have one if it took place?
Chris Butler
67   Posted 09/04/2010 at 22:11:16

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Yes, but I feel that the amount of seats isn't enough as the petition shows that there was about 300 or 400 people that signed it and that's not including supporters who wish to stand but do not know about the petition for whatever reason. I feel that people in GT8 wouldn't be too pleased about it as most of the people that choose to go in that area choose it because it's more subdued than the centre blocks.

If we could get about 500 leaflets, Derek, or if anyone has any printing connections, it would be the best way to organise things to inform the most people. As supporters can change their season tickets because Everton won't sell out, a straight swap would be in order. That those situated in the standing area would move into current standers' seats with standers moving in the opposite direction would be the only way.

As GT3 GT4 and GT5, from about row CC back, tend to be the people who stay on their feet the longest and the ones that start all the songs, naturally these areas contain the highest numbers of supporters sympathetic to our cause. I am still unsure which block but I feel the first step is informing supporters, Derek.

I've only stood for the whole game at home once this season, at the derby, where about 300 to 400 supporters stood for the whole match. At the Man United game, about 90 supporters stood the whole game — unfortunately, I was unable to stand with them. Also at the Manchester City game there was a group of about 30 supporters standing on the borders of GT4 and GT5; as we play brilliantly, most people stood anyway.

But last season at the FA cup derby, Derek, if you were there, I was quite near the front so didn't expect to stand for the whole match... but thankfully we did. In that game, there was about 3000 supporters standing so that shows that a hell of a lot of supporters like standing. If we can get a group of 300 or 400 each game standing — wherever that may be — the standing area will grow.

Derek Turnbull
68   Posted 09/04/2010 at 23:54:41

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So you reckon we best go for bulking up the number of singers in GT4?
Chris Butler
69   Posted 10/04/2010 at 09:38:06

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Yes, GT4 is probably the best option, I think.
Derek Turnbull
70   Posted 10/04/2010 at 15:31:20

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Try this link, Chris — it shows that there are 15 non-obstructed-view seats available at the back of GT4. You could bulk up the singers there by asking people move into those seats

http://eticketing.evertonfc.com/PagesPublic/ProductBrowse/seatSelection.aspx?product=ST1011&stand=GT&area=GT4&stadium=&an=a31&campaign=EB&type=S

Plus from 10 May, more seats come available from those who haven't renewed.
Andy Crooks
71   Posted 10/04/2010 at 19:02:32

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Standing at football matches should be consigned to the dark ages where it belongs.
Derek Turnbull
72   Posted 10/04/2010 at 20:06:58

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But it isn't though is it? I can't think of a single match where there has been no standing whatsoever can you?

Do you think we'll ever go to a match where there is no standing in a game? No, I don't either.

So either the club puts seat belts in the seats or fans will stand.

So if they care about your and my Goodison experience, as they call it, they should make provisions for standers.
Martin Mason
73   Posted 11/04/2010 at 03:35:47

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I didn't say that all people in the Gwladys Steet were Neanderthals — only those who can't string a sentence together without 4 or 5 foul mouthed outbursts when there are kids around or even adults who can speak without swearing.

As I have said many times now, you do not need to stand to sing... so why does anybody need a standing area?

I completely agree with Andy, standing at football matches is absolutely dark ages. Seated stadiums are for sitting down and watching the game as the vast majority want to do.

I sincerely believe that anybody who stands and blocks the view of somebody sitting is guilty of the ultimate in bad manners and outright selfishness. And no, it isn't up to me to go and find a better seat. It is absolutely on those who are standing not to obstruct anybody else's view and honour the ground rules.

Any solution that involves blocking the view of or the relocation of anybody who has purchased a seat I would oppose. Any solution that had zero effect on others I'd support but never understand.
John Lloyd
74   Posted 11/04/2010 at 13:05:11

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Martin, you say that "I sincerely believe that anybody who stands and blocks the view of somebody sitting is guilty of the ultimate in bad manners and outright selfishness" — which is why this thread is all about having a dedicated area for people who want to stand without being selfish or showing bad manners to fellow match goers around them.........

But you then go on and basically say you are opposed to this proposal as it is not up to you to go find a better seat???

Now who's being selfish? You can't have your cake and eat it.
Chris Butler
75   Posted 11/04/2010 at 13:09:54

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Martin, you clearly haven't read anything anybody has said to you as, if there is a designated area, then you would not be affected. Nobody is forcing you to stand up.

My argument beats you as I'm asking for supporters to be made aware of this so non-standers are aware of the standing area. In every other country there are standing areas and seated areas so why not here?

The reason standing is outlawed is to basically stop the more passionate fan and replace them with supporters who won't complain about anything.

Andy Crooks
76   Posted 11/04/2010 at 16:54:50

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Chris, I must challenge your last comment. I am utterly opposed to standing at football matches. I believe that it is dangerous and reminds of the days when supporters were treated like animals.

I was involved in a terrifying situation as a kid at an international match and, frankly, think that grown men should be able to sit and support their team. Because I choose to sit and watch Everton makes me less passionate? It means I won't complain about anything?

Yes, Chris, real men must stand and sing.

Derek Turnbull
77   Posted 11/04/2010 at 19:17:04

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Andy, we're talking about standing in front of your allocated seat, not terracing. Different subjects mate.
Chris Butler
78   Posted 11/04/2010 at 22:26:10

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Andy, you have no evidence to prove standing in front of your seat in unsafe. Standing like this happens every week with the authorities condoning it. Brian Barwrick the head of the FA didn't believe it was unsafe either, just that it was logistically hard to put in place. He accepted that standing was part of football but his only argument against it was that if supporters stood in seated areas due to the standing area being sold out.
Chris Butler
79   Posted 11/04/2010 at 22:34:01

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Derek, I feel we won't be able to get the standing area up and running until at least the season after next. In the meantime, I think it essential we go down a few routes. Try and inform the largest amount of supporters, even getting a meeting sorted out in a pub, maybe at earliest the Pompey game or whichever's easiest for the vast majority of supporters.

I think that if we chose a pre-season freindly or another game where the attendance will be low and season ticket holders aren't in attendance, that will be the best option for the first game when supporters can get together. If we can also get this up and running for Carling Cup games and other games with small attendances, supporters will know about the standing area meaning that by the end of 2010-11 season supporters will be aware of the standing area and we get it up a running for all games.

Derek Turnbull
80   Posted 11/04/2010 at 22:46:21

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Yes, it is a good idea to do it as a trial for each Cup game. The word could spread so that fans wil quickly learn that if we're in the Cup at home then get your tickets in Block such a such. At first we may get 20, then 30 and so on til we get the maximum we can in that designated area.

Over the season then, by the time next March comes around, fans will know to then renew their season tickets in that said area.

I think if the designated area was to be away from GT4 then it would be best to trial it out. In the meantime we could just tell everyone who is still to renew to take up the spare spaces in the GT4. That way, there's more singers in there so it will be an improvement on what we have now.
Martin Mason
81   Posted 12/04/2010 at 06:12:43

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And you guys clearly haven't read or understood a word that I said. If it affects nobody but the standers (as standing does at the moment) then I have no problem. That is as long as the standing in front of seats area is designated as such so that people can avoid it if they wish then that's fine. You are consenting adults.

"The reason standing is outlawed is to basically stop the more passionate fan and replace them with supporters who won't complain about anything.?" Never in my reading and posting on this board (no sorry, any board) have I heard such unadulterated drivel. Remember the saying never explain anything by conspiracy which can be explained by pure stupidity.

Just start appreciating that others are perfectly entitled to opinions that are opposite to yours. I don't like standing when I can sit and can't think of anything nore inherently loopy. If I could pay extra for in-seat service I'd do it. Standing and singing is so old fashioned now.
Derek Turnbull
82   Posted 12/04/2010 at 13:09:56

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Martin, we're half way there; you're happy for us to have a seperate area even if you don't appreciate why anyone would want to go in it.

We'll have you leading the singing in there before you know it! hee hee! Been nice chatting with you anyway mate! Cheers!
Martin Mason
83   Posted 13/04/2010 at 14:36:17

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Oh that's OK then. As long as I can lead the singing. Can I have a big box to stand on? Best wishes guys :-)
Matthew Mackey
84   Posted 14/04/2010 at 08:54:25

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I think in this SKY era, you tend to find at many PL matches it's the away supporters that are far more up for it in the noise department than home supporters. An example of this was clearly demonstrated to me in two matches I have attended this season: (1) FA Cup home to Birmingham City; and (2) away to Birmingham City.

In the home cup match, we Everton fans were so lifeless it was embarrassing, whereas the away Brummies were really giving it loud and proud (probably something to do with the way we played that day). In fact, the only time we came to life was when Mickey Arteta came on as as sub (first game back).

But it was the complete opposite at St Andrews. For that game, I was not in with our fans; I was in the family stand where you could have heard a pin drop whilst our fans were deafening at times — again, probably because of the way we played that day, especially in the first half.

So I think the very basic conclusion here is this:

1) Crowd atmosphere/noise levels/participation are directly linked to what you are watching (performance on the pitch);
2) Away fans are always louder, noisier and more up for it — probably because they are on someone else's patch and they want to let them know.

Let's see if my theory is correct at Villa park tonight!

David S Shaw
85   Posted 14/04/2010 at 12:52:09

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Matthew, the reason home fans are quiet is to do with congregation. An away end, the more vocal fans are going to be closer spread than at a home game. These measures requested will allow for that congregation to re-occur.
Martin Mason
86   Posted 14/04/2010 at 13:56:13

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David, correct... but standing doesn't come into the equation anywhere. Singing, atmosphere, congregation can all be done seated.
David S Shaw
87   Posted 14/04/2010 at 16:20:06

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Martin, you may be interested to hear that I often used to start off the songs at the match, and I recognise a couple of names on here and they do/have likewise.

What gets my goat is that we have people trying to tell us how it happens without ever so much as started a song off in their life. Things like standing and congregation are very important to generating an atmosphere.

Yet again Everton ignore the fans who like to give their vocal support to the club. Is it any wonder we have a reputation for being quiet? How many fans have lost to Liverpool because they hear about their atmosphere?
Dave Wilson
88   Posted 15/04/2010 at 13:10:22

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Chris

I was thinking of your campaigne last night, I wondered Did you manage to get to Villa ?

The Evertonians in the upper DE stand sorted themselves out very quickly, there was a group of lads in front of us who wanted to stand, we had a couple of kids with us, so we didnt, so they suggested we swap, simple.

By the time the match was underway, all the people at the back were standing and the people at the front were sitting.

Just goes to show what can be achieved without the "assistance" of over zealous stewarts.

A cracking atmosphere without the usual three way battle between the standers the sitters and the "organisers"
Derek Turnbull
89   Posted 15/04/2010 at 14:14:57

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Dave Wilson - That's perfect!



I was interested to read today that Sheffield United said yes to a home singing section and they had a successful trial for 80 fans. Interestingly the CEO there who agreed to this was Trevor Birch!
Matthew Mackey
90   Posted 16/04/2010 at 08:49:33

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If you have a home singing section and you don't sing or sing out of tune, will the over zealous stewards throw you out?
Derek Turnbull
91   Posted 16/04/2010 at 10:25:58

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Yes Matthew they will throw you out if you're out of tune and don't sing.

I know you're only making a light hearted mate, so apologies for giving you the rant, but you hear the same sarcastic comments all the time, if you want to sing join a choir, if I wanted to hear a song I'll put a record on zzzzz

If Sheffield United amongst others can do something similar like this for their fans then why can't Everton?

Because Everton do not care?

There is a bigger picture than it jst being a case of Everton don't want a singing section.

It says to me that they only value our money and not our support.
Derek Turnbull
92   Posted 16/04/2010 at 10:25:58

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Yes Matthew they will throw you out if you're out of tune and don't sing.

I know you're only making a light hearted mate, so apologies for giving you the rant, but you hear the same sarcastic comments all the time, if you want to sing join a choir, if I wanted to hear a song I'll put a record on zzzzz

If Sheffield United amongst others can do something similar like this for their fans then why can't Everton?

Because Everton do not care?

There is a bigger picture than it jst being a case of Everton don't want a singing section.

It says to me that they only value our money and not our support.
Chris Butler
93   Posted 16/04/2010 at 17:44:31

Report abuse

Very intresting Dave I couldn't attend the Villa game but its incidents like that give me hope that there are more supporters like this who cooperate with other supporters becuase it benefits all concerned.

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