His falling out with numerous players, inability to clinch signings, wasting millions on certain players, awful substitutions and overall tactics, numerous humiliations on the pitch have left me in no doubt he is not up to the job as Everton manager, despite finishing high in the league table on several occasions.
A couple of times we have been close to having a decent team but Moyes has shown he has had no clue how to make the final adjustment to push us on and we have then slid backwards.
Apart from a couple of purple patches, the standard of football played during his reign has been the worst I have witnessed in 40 years of watching Everton, and at times has been absolutely appalling.
But last Tuesday night was beyond the pale. For an Everton manager to put out a weakened team in a Derby was totally unforgivable and surely now only the ultra deluded can want him to remain as manager of our great club.
His logic is and was all wrong. Anyone who has watched the game for any reasonable length of time knows there are certain fundamentals you don't mess with. An unchanged team breeds understanding, continuity and confidence. Moyes doesn't know this.
One change in a defence means there will be a disruption of understanding in the defence. Two changes means there will be probably be too much disruption, especially in a Derby, and when a solid performer like Distin starts to struggle you know this must be the case. Moyes doesn't know this.
Bringing in two players with little match practice is a recipe for disaster in a Derby as they will struggle with the pace of the game and it is unfair on them. Moyes doesn't understand this.
Two or three changes for any game is risky but for a Derby it is a real gamble but six changes is suicide. Moyes doesn't know this.
If we had played our strongest team, given Liverpool a game, maybe even won a point or three, we could have dented their confidence further, instead of boosting it, and the outcome of their cup tie may well have been different as the pressure on Dalglish was growing a pace. This was far too much for Moyes to work out.
And, after 10 years, Moyes didn't know or didn't care that a Derby is too big a game to mess about with. His plan was doomed to fail, didn?t work, and all he managed to do was generate an extra game for the team, with cup progress even more uncertain.
Moyes likes to harp on about how he looks after his younger players.
His management of Rodwell has been awful. Putting earlier seasons to one side, and with the scapegoat for many fans last season transferred to Arsenal, Rodwell was pitched into the fray and almost immediately he too suffered harsh criticism from a certain section of our supporters but, to his enormous credit, he played through this (despite a ridiculous sending off), kept his head down, worked hard and after several excellent performances, notably City away and Utd at home, got himself into the England team on merit, and won over the boo boys.
Unfortunately an injury stopped his progress and then Moyes did what only he can do. He didn't just play Rodwell once when not fully fit, away to West Brom when he had to go off, he brought him on again in the very next game causing Rodwell to be sidelined for weeks.
Not content with that he then brings him back for the derby when he?d had little match practice and the critics have returned leaving Rodwell with the task of re-establishing himself again and winning over certain out-of-order supporters again. It?s just poor management of a player.
Rodwell will leave at the first opportunity, just like Arteta and the Evertonians who have given him stick will then deny they were ever on his back, just the same as with Arteta.
Ross Barkley could have been a sensation for us this season in midfield. But, while our centre midfield has struggled on the creative side all season, and again on Saturday against Sunderland, he is nowhere to be seen.
I'll throw in the handling of Anichebe too, whose confidence has been destroyed by Moyes, who has incessantly played him out of position.
And of course playing people out of position is one of Moyes?s favourite tricks... and he seems to have no idea that this can hamper a young player's development. Even though Barkley handled it well, he was played out of position on his debut for the club.
At the start of last season Rodwell had just had a great pre-season, Moyes could have started with an excellent centre midfield trio of Rodwell, Arteta and Pienaar, which would have had some pace, a ballwinner and plenty of creativity. But instead he chose to ignore it, instead playing someone who wasn?t match fit who had no pre-season, and supporters were left scratching their heads as to why we had yet another poor start, and that chance is now long gone. We are now left with a ponderous centre midfield which lacks creativity, creates no space for the two wide players, and is unable to win a midfield battle with any team including Blackpool and Tamworth and we have to endure the team holding on to slender leads like grim death, relying on a stretched but solid defence.
Each substitution he made in the Spurs game made the team worse, he took off the three players who had been the biggest threat, and not for the first time it was like the Alamo in our penalty area for the last fifteen minutes of the game.
There has also been a bandwagon this season for Moyes to play two strikers. When will the penny drop that we don't have the quality in midfield to do this and Moyes doesn?t have the tactical know how to play this way? Remember the Bolton home game fiasco?
No doubt the usual suspects will have a go at me for saying this but the game is up for Moyes. He is not a good manager for Everton, he does not know the Everton way ? even after 10 years ? and I hope and pray Spurs offer him their manager's job when Redknapp leaves... although I think they will have too much sense.
As for getting to and getting past the FA Cup Semi-Final, I have no confidence in Moyes managing this and we will see the team chop and change more and more over the next few weeks as the wheels fall off again. And although Pienaar can't play in the cup, he'll play more games than Drenthe who needs games to become more of a consistent performer.
With or without money, the last 10 years could have been so much better with the right person in charge. This club has more than money can buy (as 1984-85 showed), a great history, great support, great facilities, good youngsters coming through the ranks, and it did have an ambition few other clubs had, but Moyes has talked us down for years, and diminished our standing almost single handedly.
Please, no more nonsense, no more "In Moyes We Trust". The game is truly up. He doesn't care or know what it means to be an Evertonian. Last Tuesday proved that. When the Everton manager becomes Liverpool?s best weapon, something is very, very wrong.
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575 Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:31:26
I think the cold harsh truth is he's just not good enough. For a big strong lad, he goes to ground far too easily, and even the manager doesn't know what his best position is. To me, he's not a striker because he doesn't get enough goals, and he's certainly no wide player because he can't beat a man and can't cross a ball.
But you're right about Moyes though. I think the night he made all them changes in the derby is the night our season went tits up. We will still go through against Sunderland but a semi-final against THEM? I'm not so sure... and they're no great shakes but it's like you said: he's their biggest weapon.
Dont bank on anyone coming in for him at the end of the season; it's not going to happen... He's here for the long haul ? the very long haul!
577 Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:40:24
This is a universal truth, as consistent as the fact that Phil Jagielka will say "Obviously" at least six times in a post-match interview and no-one on an internet forum ever changes their mind.
578 Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:47:32
579 Posted 21/03/2012 at 09:14:00
There must be something wrong with the coaching set up if adult professionals need endless instructions.
When attacks peter out as they usually do he wears the look of a stunned mullet.
This is not surprising because he and his fellow coaches have not an ounce of attacking experience.
An example was the second half of the Sunderland game. Our wide men under no pressure sent over a string of totally useless balls that sailed way over the heads of attackers and defenders.
Not one of our coaches has a career background that would enable them to deal with such a problem.
Case in point is Arteta who since going to Arsenal. has rediscovered his dead ball skills
It is probably a bit soon for Moyes to influence Jelavic who looks to have the makings of a decent centre forward. It won't be long before the system grinds him down.
583 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:03:38
584 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:18:10
585 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:22:01
586 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:20:23
587 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:18:53
Change always brings risk. Sometimes in football things just fit and there's no guarantee Martinez, Holloway or anybody else would do for us what they've done elsewhere.
I can understand the fear that most people have towards a change. I can understand those who say look at resources and where we have finished in the league. What I can't get my head around is the people who defend this style of football we play and the attitude we carry on to the pitch with us.
It makes me sick at times.
588 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:39:18
590 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:34:26
I understand that our average position under the Moyestro is 8.3.Do you truly believe that we have consistently had the eighth best set of players in the Prem? Of course not. He has had to micro-manage, drill, persuade and chivy a very average bunch to reach levels of achievement way beyond most of their individual abilities.
Let's at least be realistic. Only when he has the luxury to sign class players can his true worth be judged. When will that come about? Never. So we just have to hope that his talent with pigs` ears will endure.
591 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:55:15
But, for all the reasons outlined in Ged`s post,I`m totally pissed off with him.
I no longer feel any urge to pay to watch the shit he offers us-and if that`s the best this useless Board can provide him with,it`s time they pissed off as well!
Like many others,I shall not be renewing my ST and if that means I am no longer a true Evertonian,I`ve been driven to it by the most incompetent bunch of con merchants since Portsmouth`s owners set the mould.
592 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:51:57
Last Tuesday was rubbish and I do think Moyes got that particular decison wrong but it certainly doesn't mean that now he is no longer the right man for the job. Maybe he knew that Sunderland with players like O'Shea, and especially Bardsley are a team likely to try and kick you off the park and didn't think some players could cope with the intensity of a derby and then the kicking that Sunderland were going to hand out.
Players like Phil Neville, Cahill and Heitinga are not the type to hold anything back and it may've been too much. Apparently because the media want to suck Martin O'Neill off, their bully-boy tactics go unnoticed, unlike say Stoke.
593 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:05:45
595 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:02:18
I'm not in anyway condoning our abysmal derby performance but it shows Moyes isn't some sort of special failure case. Alongside these humiliations (some people on here would have you believe that any away draw is a humiliation) there've been some great wins. The last two results have suddenly coloured everyone's retrospective view of the City, Chelsea and Tottenham games: opinion has gone from "what great strong wins" to "well we just nicked a goal and hung on, negative Moyes got lucky on the football lottery for once".
Everyone on here knows Moyes's failings as a manager, but this post is just beating him in every direction. He gets blamed for playing the same team over and over, getting called tactically inept; when he does rotate he gets blamed for changing the team. I couldn't believe some of the posts after the derby with people slating him for leaving out Neville, Cahill and Osman! These players ? "Moyes's favourties" ? have been on the end of abuse all season and so has Moyes for picking them. Showed their value on Tuesday night in their absence though, didn't they. Yet, because we didn't beat Sunderland, it was back to kicking Osman and wanting him out of the team.
These posts are just far too knee-jerk and one-sided, like the majority of this post is. Arteta didn't leave us at the first opportunity, he stayed for about 6 years! LIkewise Rodwell was not playing that well at the start of the season, hence why we were losing most games. No coincidence that when Gibson came we started playing well.
You're also advocating leaving out Pienaar, one of our best players, in favour of Drenthe, who needs games yet is playing most of them in this mad period. It would be crazy not to bring Pienaar in for the league games in the midst of injuries.
596 Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:53:44
597 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:11:40
He is too defensive, he has too many favourites and his substitutions are infuriating; however, when you look at what he has to work with and when you realise that we are not actually that good, you will find your blood pressure will come down and you won't have this ridiculous expectation of winning every game hanging around your neck. The disappointments seem less devastating.
I don't get that worked up anymore since realising we are nowhere as good as I liked to think we were. We are a midtable boring side with one or two good players.
No doubt after we get beat by Arsenal - 1-0 or 2-1 tonight, someone will come on and slag off Moyes (ignoring the usual poor performance from some players) and state that they were there for the taking... ffs.
599 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:03:30
Nope, investment has curtailed that. If we'd have had £30 million to spend in the 09/10 close season (after finishing 8th) and Moyes was still finishing 8th/9th/10th that is when enough is enough and we need a change.
As it is we got Jan Mucha, Joao Silva and Magaye Gueye. Hardly groundbreaking signings.
"Anyone who has watched the game for any reasonable length of time knows there are certain fundamentals you don't mess with. An unchanged team breeds understanding, continuity and confidence. Moyes doesn't know this".
I'd suggest he probably does. How about having a word with that useless manger along the road, Alex Ferguson. In his 20+ years at Man United, I don't recall him changing his starting 11 once to prioritise one competition over the other. Clearly it never happens if you are a great manager.
Last week against Liverpool was a bad judgement call, but move on, stop moaning and get behind the team. We haven't turned bad overnight.
600 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:16:37
I've outstayed my welcome on the Toffeeweb. Reading all the negativity and poor threads that has come along over the past weeks, I won't be logging on again.
602 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:25:39
604 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:20:47
I feel that Moyes is inherently cautious and doesn't have the faith in the players (or the coaching ability) to let them off the leash ? we've all seen the odd mad moments when the team has played freely, without fear of losing; these occasions justify, for me anyway, what I'm trying to say.
It's a shame because I think he's got so many attributes. Yes, I know he "sees them in training" and he's a lovely man, but so were Johnny Carey and Gordon Lee.
606 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:39:08
Did you go to the FA Cup semi final in 2009?
607 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:31:35
Steve Smith, I'm sorry, but you can't use the 2009-10 close season's lack of funds as a defence for Moyes. His claims to having the best squad he'd ever had put end to anyone saying he couldn't do better with that squad. It'd be different if he didn't come out with those quotes, but he did, so you can't.
608 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:45:48
611 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:41:46
But, why is it that so many Evertonians feel this way? Well numerous reasons actually. But, something which sticks with me, in Moyes's earlier years, he would never admit that we had no chance of winning the league until we couldn't get the points to do so, that was the level of ambition of the man. Now, however, is a different story. We have to hear 'how tough it will be to make the top half', how most of the bottom half have spent more than us, how much of a struggle it will be, this is all before the season has actually kicked off.
For the first time in 16 years, I'm actually unsure whether to renew my season ticket; before now, it has always been a given that I would renew!
My point is, and I assure you there is one: How can Evertonians possibly be positive, when the people running the club arent?? (Not just Moyes, by the way.)
613 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:39:32
614 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:25:58
Finally people are waking up, how long will it take before there will be a Moyes out chant?
What Moyes did when he sold Yakubu for 1.25million was plain stupid, it was clear that after selling Vaughan and Beckford that we were too short up front.
Now we suck even more then before Moyes took the reign.
I wish Moyes will leave come summer, I am sick of his tactics and his crap handling of Barkley and Vellios.
Moyes is the prime example of a manager who has outstayed his welcome, and I hope more Everton fans can finally wake up to the fact that Moyes has done all he can, but that he can never get us back to where we were!!
We need a NEW manager with some attacking DNA.
615 Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:58:42
Moyes is also a victiim of the Board he works with
Trouble is, as I'm sure you know, many of us have seen the good times and great teams
cue: different world, uneven playing field, obscene money, Clough couldn't do it now, times have changed, you need a billionaire backer to be able to pass and run....
624 Posted 21/03/2012 at 13:50:24
The comment was completely meant in jest, my interpretation of the point through the keyboard was not particularly well construed.
627 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:23:19
He wasn't doing it for us so he was dumped, get over it.
628 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:20:23
There is always the excuse of lack of money - well Brendan Rodgers at Swansea hasn't exactly been given shed loads of money to spend on his squad has he ? And look what he has done and the quality of the football that they play.
I can understand playing a lone striker in certain matches - but Moyes does that in about 95% of our games. Is it any wonder that Saha has been playing well for Spurs when he has been - mostly - playing alongside another striker?
The view of the media seems to be that we should think ourselves lucky that we have Moyes as our manager. That he has saved us. That without him we would be in The Championship or even lower.The "cult of the Moyesiah" it would seem. That we should be careful what we wish for as Mark Lawrenson would say !!!
Well here's what I wish for in terms of a manager - a manager who will play attractive, attacking football in the traditions of Everton. I hope I really do that Moyes is the man - but for the last 2 or 3 seasons I have my doubts. Not a Moyes hater - I don't like the word hate - more a "Frustrated With Moyes" Evertonian. It's like Gordon Lee and how he got rid of Duncan McKenzie nad changed us from being great to watch to dull and predictable.
632 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:36:29
People always mention Holloway, Rodgers, Lambert etc. but why not? They all got underdogs out of the Championship into the Premier League; Moyes nearly did. We should have known what we were getting then.
Holloway: 1 game at Anfield, 1 win!!! Yes, Blackpool went down, but that was because they had League 1 and 2 defenders. Had he have had Hibbert, Distin, Heitinga and Baines, they wouldn't have gone down.
What I'm saying is we can't let fear of going back to the 90s stop us from dreaming of more with what little we have. Moyes is showing less and less enthusiasm each season; something has to give. Keeping us in the Premier League is not a success, as every Everton manager since the year dot has managed that (or former Division 1).
633 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:49:36
There won't be a Moyes out chant.
Even members of the MOB have got a modicum of respect left for the man, even after the derby.
634 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:58:55
635 Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:54:27
The simple fact is that we've always had inferior talent. How many of our current players would even get a look in for the RS, let alone any of the teams above them? Maybe Baines, maybe Fellaini, but nobody else. Compare Arsenal's lineup tonight with ours, position by position, and you see superior talent at almost every spot on the field. Yet we regularly beat the top sides, at least at home, and I think Moyes deserves great credit for that, Tuesday's disaster notwithstanding.
636 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:04:20
637 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:13:41
638 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:22:27
640 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:23:12
Secondly, however I think knee-jerk reactions are not what is required right now. To say "Get rid of Moyes" at this moment in time would be wrong as we are still in the FA Cup and there is every chance we could go through to the Semi-Final, especially with a chance of revenge... what more incentive would the players require?
I think what we as Evertonians need is a sense of positivity and get behind the team. COYB.
641 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:45:17
You can't just say 'so what if he bought those players' then list 2 or 3 debatable bad buys and a few that didn't work out. If we're compiling a list of Moyes' good buys v his bad buys then one is going to be considerably longer than the other. If there's a good squad of players here at Everton at the moment then that is down to Moyes. You can argue that someone else could take things in a different direction but you can't criticise Moyes for betraying this good group of players without acknowledging that it was him who put them together.
643 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:55:17
I also think its a bit unfair to blame Moyes for Yakubus form after coming back from a terrible injury.
You still haven't answered my question from post 593.
645 Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:03:06
For the past 2 years I've wanted a change and thought thanks For everything Mr Moyes but now time to move on with all our best wishes......... after the derby the fucker has lost all respect from me and he should be fucked off sooner rather than later.
647 Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:30:42
649 Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:03:27
I didnt mean it to sound like I had quoted Moyes saying 'I dont care'. It was his attitude afterwards, the 'no regrets whatsoever' talk or the fact that he would have been happy to take 2 points from spurs and liverpool, but got 3. The irony being that the fans would have probably been much happier had we drawn both games.
James, there is a good squad of players here, but Moyes cant get them playing to their potential when the shackles of defensive responsibilty first is on each and every one of them. The right wing was not Artetas position, just as it isnt Coleman's, or Anichebe's, or Osman's, but you could probably pick a few games where they have done alright playing there. Also, Cahill can go 13 months without scoring, and barely contributing to each game, and still be the first name on the team sheet, yet Barkley or Drenthe only need to give the ball away once or twice and its back to the U18's or the bench. We need a new man in charge, someone who can gee the players up, from august to may, not january to march.
653 Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:33:51
This limited left back actually received his call up for England when playing at left back for us.
Arteta won Everton player of the season the two years he was on the right wing....must have done something right
656 Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:56:02
Lescott was a good defender, and scored a few goals from corners, but couldnt overlap nearly as good as Baines, or ever get a cross in. A left back he was not.
660 Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:14:34
And as regards Baines have you forgotten that Moyes actually said one of the reasons he wasn't in the team when he first came was that he wasn't a tall player ?!! So presumably when he signed for Everton - he lied about his height did he ?!!!
I could mention playing Cahill as a lone striker - but don't get me started on that one!!!! He has potentially ruined a good midfield player.
663 Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:08:28
665 Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:38:40
Michael, I do remember he went for height, and he also questioned Baines defending, so was basically saying that he paid 6 million for a short arse left back that couldn't defend.
668 Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:09:01
Rooney played on the left for United, Gerrard did it for Liverpool on the right. Essien has played RB for Chelsea, Mascherano plays CB for Barcelona. Most managers do it occasionally, its not just a failing specific to Moyes. Yes i can't understand why Osman gets a game out wide when he should be in the middle. When Pienaar is cup tied and Drenthe is on the other flank what option apart from Coleman do we have out wide? The Derby game aside, who has been playign out of position recently? We've had Drenthe Piennar and Coleman on the wings. Fellaini, Osman or Rodwell in the middle, and Cahill behind Jelavic.
669 Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:13:03
But who could do better? He has won 3 LMA awards! Zzzz save it.
People in football are too scared of change. Some people in will point to the longevity of SAF, and I can understand why, but he recycles his teams and staff when necessary to keep things fresh. I think Moyes' time has come to seek pastures new.
671 Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:57:09
675 Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:01:58
677 Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:39:40
678 Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:33:57
Over the months, in some cases years, I have named the players and their faults so I won't bother repeating them.
Anyone with half a brain can do the same but can anyone tell me a single case where there's been signs of improvement.
In most cases they have got worse if anything. I would love to have a web cam at Finch Farm so I could see what the hell kind of coaching if any takes place there.
680 Posted 21/03/2012 at 22:07:16
He made a decision to play Lescott at left-back.
687 Posted 21/03/2012 at 22:36:42
Arteta ? made his name at Everton with very little before;
Cahill ? decent at Millwall but became a good top level player with us;
Lescott ? again became a fine player with us;
Jagielka ? great until recent poor form;
Baines ? come on a treat since he's been here.
Gravesen ? I'll be careful with this cos it took a while coming, but he was completely dominant in the period before he went to Madrid, there was no-one to touch him... short-lived but what a star;
Pienaar ? apparently can only be a decent player in a blue shirt;
Carsley ? limited but did a great job.
...and there are others, I'm sure. Okay, there are players who haven't done it, that's true for every manager, but he has without question got more bang for his buck than most.
689 Posted 21/03/2012 at 23:01:54
Arteta had a decent stab at quality at PSG where he outshone Ronaldinho and then a decent career at Rangers before getting homesick
Cahill was just as good at Millwall they just werent a top side
Lescott kneecapped to miss his first chance at top flight but again just as good in a poorer side
Jagielka a stalwart at Sheff Utd
Baines a decent player for Wigan but in a poorer side
Graveson hit and miss everywhere including us but the season he got sold
Pienaar a decent player at Ajax who lost his way when he left them for Dortmund
Carsley just was Carsley
All in all did Moyes improve them or just bring them to a club with better players?
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