Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Jagielka ? Will we get it right?
99 Comments: It seems Arsenal are not giving up just yet on their pursuit of Phil Jagielka. My own opinion is that he will sign for Arsenal towards the end of August, he may even appear this season first.
I thought that Everton really messed up the Lescott deal; and both Moyes and Kenwright made errors. Firstly, he started against Arsenal on the first day of the season, which gave the whole game an unsavoury subcontext. The season started under a cloud. This was pure "nose off, face spited" behaviour from Moyes.
Secondly, it became an rather unseemly affair with Moyes digging those famously stubborn heels in. Moyes should have done business briskly and got the player out and the money in before a ball was ever kicked. Instead, a war of words commenced and Lescott played when he should not have.
And going back earlier, Rooney was allowed to leave, but only at the end of August, and the club could not reinvest that money in a timely and appropriate fashion for the beginning of that season. Kenwright was insistent that that he got the best deal; but I always think the best deals are done cleanly and early. Everton drag the thing out until it affects the players, the stands and everything else.
We know the club is completely inept (or many of us think that, not all) at bringing in players; I also however, think we are not particularly smart at doing business the other way.
If Jagielka goes, can we trust Everton to do the business, or will he hang around until late August, creating yet another difficult season start?
Mark Tanton, Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:39:19
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
So Kenwright /Moyes everyone has their price, Tell Arsenal to Put up £17m plus addons within the next 48 hrs or do one.
Leak it to the press that we will sell for £17m and leave it.
If they don't bite then deal over.
Cannot anyone at Everton negotiate and play hardball?
We should have got £7m for Piennar last summer.
I will be sad to see him go, but we really need to do something to get a winger and a front man.
I
ts not as if Jags is making waves to go to them.
Also who do you replace him with? Yobo is not up to the job and Mad Jonnie isn't either. The only option might be Rodwell but the speculation over him going to Man Utd has turned him into a bumbling wreck.
Alright N'Zogbia would be a great buy but at what cost? I wouldn't want him over Jags.
From a personal point of view, I'd be happy to take 18M for him. Scott Dann for 6-8M and enough for another couple of players who could improve the team.
What we don't have are pacy wingers or cash.
Take the money, have a last minute crack at N'Zogbia and if it fails try one of the other names linked (even a loan for Adam Johnson would be a good move for me).
Would you rather have accepted £15mill for Lescott at the start of the transfer window, or as Moyes did hold out for £24mill and put transfers in place ie Distin, Heitiga, Bily.
I would be happy to sell Jags for £18mill as long as we brought in players with that money. I do think we play better football with Heitinga at the back, although Jags is a better defender, it's a bit like Hibbert is a better defender than Baines but Baines is FAR more important to us than Hibbert.
Always look at the bigger picture.
I'd take a hammering off anyone in one game for the extra £8M. My worry is that £16M for Jags will result in only £10M for Moyes. With the rest disappearing into that black hole hovering over GP.
Mark, regarding Rooney. United only put an official offer in the day before transfer deadline. Putting us in a crap position to negotiate -plus BK needed the money to pay off loans.
So our hand was forced.
I imagine £14m will be enough to set things going.
Going back to my original concern, I simply lack faith that the club can do business in a timely or appropropriate fashion.
Point about Man Utd bid accepted, but I still think that has a lot to with our reputation as bumblers. They knew they could get away with it.
We can't choose when we sell if the other team don't offer the right money at the right time. Are you saying you'd sell a player for around 60-70% of what you want just to get rid early?
The only thing we got wrong with Lescott was how we spent the money.
A, to risk injury to an expensive player on the verge of leaving a skint club
B, risk a positive start to the season just to keep up appearances of being in control of events.
We arsed it up.
But I would say only getting £2Om + add-ons for Rooney on the last day of the window was.
Regarding Jagielka, we shouldn't do anything until they offer ridiculous money, i.e.£20m.
Not in a million seasons will Arsenal pay more than £14-15m. If we try and exploit them, they'll go elsewhere and buy Samba and/or Cahill. Let's not insult them, it's not Man City and it's not silly money anymore.
With the benefit of hindsight it would have been better not to play him in that game against Arsenal, but IMO it was his unprofessional attitude to the whole issue that contributed to that defeat. What DM tried to do was not give in to the scandalous way he was tapped up by Hughes. Perhaps it was a bit naive to expect it to go away, but you can't blame him for his stance, especially as it contributed towards getting the huge fee for him.
Jagielka's head does not appear to have been turned, and if it has looks like he is going to be more professional about it than Lescott was. As Mike Allison says above, the club can't and shouldn't do anything until a bid is received which matches the value that they put on him. Don't forget he will have to be replaced as well, as Yobo will be gone before the end of the window.
Other clubs know the financial mess we are in, but we don't need to hold up the begging bowl.
For me, I'd offer Rodders or/and Jags to the highest buyer (nb: Man City look to have spent up now with Aguero) and I'd be looking at maybe recruiting a Ryan Shawcross to replace Jags, and why not try for a wildcard in Taarabt from QPR? He'd offer something different, is very skillful and may be persuaded to put a shift in by Moyesy.
Add to that Shane Long and Aiden McGeady, Adam Johnson or Shaun Wright-Phillips on the wing and we're starting to get cooking.
I might add that each of these players also has a decent injury-free record, essential to a club like Everton, and they provide experience. What a lift a bit of wheeler dealing like this would provide at the moment...
We need a wide player and a striker more than we need a CB. We have Distin, Johnny, Yobo, Rodwell and Duffy. It's a piss-poor situation but no-one seems to be bidding on Rodwell or Fellaini so we've no choice.
I also think getting Hitlzberger on free would be shrewd piece of business.
I just hope Heitinga can step up and get some sort of pairing going with Distin ? or are we looking at Rodwell or even Yobo as a replacement?
On another note, is Scott Parker not interested in coming to us on loan for a season? I'd like to see that happen, what with Felli not being 100% and news of Arteta brusing bones (WTF!) in the US.
I would imagine Jags is jumping for joy and checking estate agents in Herts as we speak.
We're at the end of our rope with this squad. Keep everyone. We're in desperate straights. Does anyone here think the players don't know what we know?
All we want lads is get out the gate fast.
I also recollect that the majority of posters around that time accepted that Lescotts loyalty was to himself and his family, fuck if i got offered double for the same job i'd go. He was / is a Wolves fan.
If Jags put in a transfer request last month, you'd all be calling him a mercenary twat and all sorts. Now you want shut of him. Ridiculous.
If it does get Dann and N'Zogbia BOTH then I say go for it. However, who says we're getting either of those two anyway? Selling Rodwell, Bily, Yak and Yobo should be where we're looking in terms of raising funds, not important, quality players like Jags.
Now that an attractive bid may be on the offer, just note the number (and the names) of those willing to flock Jags off to the Emirates.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/8669393/Arsenal-closing-in-on-Phil-Jagielka-after-submitting-new-bid-for-Everton-defender.html
Get a £5m replacement from the Championship and the rest on Donovan, who 'gets it' like Jags. We'll need someone to replace the brotherly love in the dressing room.
Get the best winger or striker you can with the cash and use what we have to fill in. Without attrition like thise the likes of Duffy would struggle to get a chance - not that I'm saying he is my first choice. Steven Defour anyone?
We need pace on the wing and we need striker cover - apart from our other SPoFs (Single Points of Failure)
Gavin - point exactly.
Scott Dann is a really good player, not yet at Jags level, and the £12 mil brum want is ridiculous considering he was out injured all of last season! Another player worth looking at is James Tomkins from West Ham. We wouldnt need them to slot straight in because we have Heitinga, Yobo etc. I have said before though, with the financial state we are in and the fact we need to sell to buy, we have to look at the likes of Jags, Arteta going, late 20's still worth considerable cash, and not the Rodwells and Felliani's who we need to be building a team around for the future.
My worry is we will sell close to the deadline and only manage at best to get a loan in with the promise of a transfer come January. Then come Jan.... O well you know the rest!!!!
Wegner is not an idiot and sees the value in Jags, can't believe some of the quotes on this thread.
He is good at man-to-man marking but much of his games leave much to be desired, his distribution being the worst facet of his game. He is great at throwing in last-ditch tackles, I grant you... but I don't think his positional play is up to that much either.
It is a position where we do have some cover and some potential coming through and I am afraid, if Arsenal bid £15M, it would be an act of madness for Everton to turn it down, even if Moyes only gets £10M to spend of it.
Football is about opinions, Liam, so those of us who don't rate Jagielka are entitled to ours too ? especially if you are forking out for our season tickets year after year.
We need to sell to buy and whilst we'd obviously prefer to sell Yak, Yobo, Bily, Johnny or even Rodwell, there clearly hasn't been interest in those players at a sufficient level to make it worthwhile (and/or our board have been unable to finalise the deals), the players in demand are Baines (too valuable to our attacking play) and Jags (first-teamer but more replaceable). Against that logic and assuming these figures of £12-18M are real then I don't really see that there's much choice.
Also if we're going to do it, we need to do it now whilst we still have a couple of weeks before the season starts to get players used to life without Jags and new players in, not at the end of August when disruption will be intensified.
(As an aside, talking about the Lescott situation, I have to say that aside from the Arsenal match that really didn't work out too badly did it? Big wodge of dosh for new players and an even better left-back emerges).
I think he'd be happy to stay, he's a future captain but he can't ignore £100k per week wages at his age.
Let's have an amicable spilt and use the money to strengthen some of the obvious deficiencies in our squad.
The sale of Jagielka could take a while as no one is going to sell on the first bid, not when we all know higher bids will be tabled. The question is all about timing, getting the best deal that allows us as a club to get other players in as either direct replacements or strengthen other areas.
Given the opportunity I think Heitinga will shock the neysayers on this board and will be amongst the best players we have whilst playing at centreback.
Personally, if Jags is happy to stay, I say keep hold of him. He reminds me a lot of John Terry when he was younger.
I reckon Samba will end up at the Emirates and if Jags goes anywhere it will be to the RS or Chelski for over 20 mil..
Sorry, I didn?t mean to sound obtuse, you are of course entitled to their opinion.
To me, player like Jags, Cahill and Baines are the reason I still support this club; players who wear the shirt with the pride it deserves and IMO we are lucky to have them and as regards Jags and possibly Baines, it looks like Arsne agrees.
Tricky one this as we would be losing one of our best players and for once he is in no way agitating for the move.
The good news is that Heitinga is pretty strong direct replacement and with Yobo back i'd say we have some decent depth at CB. However Jags when fit and firing is probably in our top 3 players.
For me it all depends on who else is lined up. Assuming Jags went for £16m if Moyes then managed to bring in Nzogbia and maybe Adam Johnson and Sturridge on loan then i would say go right ahead. If Jags left and we end up splashing £10m on Shane Long then i will not be best pleased....
In any case if Phil Jones, not yet a full international is worth close to £19mill, Jags shouldn't be allowed to go for less.
But I'd rather he stayed. I simply don't trust Heitinga to put his body on the line like Jags does and I know someone will say Johnny's anticipation and reading of the game means he doesn't have to, but at centre half you'll always need to tackle and head the ball - two things at which JH is patently weak.
I still say, Rodwell should be the one to be sacrificed if anyone.
Phil Jones' fee is all on his potential; he is only very young and Man Utd are making a long term investment. They may get ten years' service from him.
Jagielka is getting closer to 30, and is the finished article to an extent. There will be no increase in value from here, and only 3 or 4 years at his best from here.
Hence Jones is worth more than Jagielka.
By the time the bank takes their cut any fee of say £15 million would mean £10 million for Moyes to spend.
£10 million doesn't get get you much these days. Look at Henderson and Carroll for example.
I agree Jags distruibution is poor but his primary job is to defend. And he does that well.
Personally I don't think Heitinga (an absolute fanny ,not a hard man at all) or Yobo (error prone) are at the same level of Jagielka.
Rodwell looked poor at centre half a few years ago in a pre season at Coventry, Duffy and Mustafi wont 'make' it at Everton.
Still, I can't see Moyes selling for less than £18 million and Wenger wont pay that much.
I still wouldn't sell Jags for less though.
Then again, if Ferdinand stubbs his toe, or does his back in through picking up his wallet again then Jones may be called up.
TAKE THE MONEY!!
Distin is good for another season at least and we can get another defender in as cover, Brum are up the creek at the moment cash wise etc.
I see DJ Campbell is off to QPR, shamre, think he would have been a great addition, bags of pace and knowe where the goal is - and cheap!
Come on Everton, do the deal now and dont wait until the end of August to sign players just so you can save one months worth of wages!
Can't agree with that Denis.
The worry is is that if he IS sold then Kenwright will not give Moyes all, or any, of the money or he'll be sold too late to invest any money in this window and January will see the money has disappeared down the back of Kenwrights sofa. Again.
Some good shouts on here though. But Dann? For how much??? Fuck me gently....
We have a player in N'Zogbia ? not everyone's cup of tea... but without a doubt he's been hankering for a move to us... yet it looks like he'll be going Villa because we haven't got a pot to piss in.
It's not just us fans who want signings either. Sylvain is meant to have been quoted in the Echo as saying we need two more players because everyone else is buying around us.
The board need to put up or fuck off before we end up in deep shit with all our best players wanting away and we end up in Championship.
I know he has made some high-profile errors in the past but a record clean sheet run in Turkey might suggest that he has improved his concentration in his old age... I say old age but he is 30. Peak time for a CB in my opinion.
Yobo was apparently still the quickest member of the first team in training this summer (according to someone's Twitter) and at 6'-2" is more dominant in the air than most. His distribution is not great but then Jags is no Baresi.
I can't imagine any CF would relish playing against Yobo and Distin, two large, strong players and comfortably the quickest CB pairing in the Premier League by my reckoning. If they could keep their concentration (and that is admittedly a big 'IF') they could be quite formidable.
So how about we sell Jags, buy N'Zogbia and go with the 4-2-3-1 formation that was so popular at the last World Cup with the following team:
Howard
Neville Yobo Distin Baines
Rodwell Fellaini
N'Zogbia Osman Arteta
Beckford
Subs:Mucha, Coleman, Heitinga, Barkley, Bilyaletdinov, Cahill, Saha.
I reckon that team could do pretty damn well. Anyone with me? I'm pretty sure Moyes isn't.
Then Moyes after a poor run will blame the catastrophic loss of Jagielka. Then in November we'll have loads of articles on here saying that Moyes hasn't had any money to spend and thats' why we're playing poorly. Our season will effectively end half-way through December.
If you had to bet on any team's fortunes it would be Everton's, the amount of money I've made through the years betting on Everton matches is astonishing.
I am sorry to pick on you again but are players like Cahill and Jags really the reason you support Everton?
They without doubt are grafters if a bit limited in ability and erm they get paid very well for for working hard. They both seem like decent enough blokes (although I don't know them)
I suspect (I could be wrong! and don't intend to patronise you) but we probably started watching Everton at different times so, if I am rubbishing your heroes, I apologise. Kevin Sheedy sometimes looked like the laziest player to grace a football pitch but was a wonderful footballer. Too many Evertonians of certain age confuse workrate and passion with ability and effectiveness. Any new player at Goodison who from their debut does not careen around the pitch at 100 miles an hour is considered to be lacking in passion for the club; it's misguided and says a lot re how limited our view of what makes a good player has become.
It is a good question though, Liam: Why do people support Everton? Because of the passion of certain players?? Or other more complex reasons???
Now cast your mind back to the beginning of June when Barcelona started their pursuit of Fabregas and City started their pursuit of Nasri through the press, the Wenger boy (sorry, I'll stop the crap jokes now!) was all over the media, bleating about how unfair life was and how those naughty clubs were poaching his players by using the press to unsettle his boys... Sound familiar now, does it Arsene, you cheeky French rascal!?
But hang on a minute chaps ? didn't those two aforementioned players both publicly state they wanted out? And correct me if I'm wrong, our Jags has only just scribbled his autograph on a new 5-year deal?
Still, that has stopped the old rogue from threatening to sue every man and his dog for undervaluing his boys with insultingly low offers! £10 million for Jags! Honestly mate, which boot would you like? People in glass houses...
Firstly, I don't think he's doing it "through the press", as you state. Everton received and rejected a bid. If anything, Everton are now doing their bit "through the press" with that questionable piece by Greg O'Keefe ? could it be seen as begging for a much improved offer?
And has Arsene really threatened to sue clubs undervaluing his players??? Sorry but I think you're making stuff up again...
Also, he did threaten to report to Uefa, they would look into legal action unless the clubs went through the proper chanels etc.
As for Everton "playing the game" well about frigging time, we've bent over and taken it for far too long.
Sorry but I'm not making stuff up all my other posts are just my opinion; sorry if they're the opposite to yours but that's life.
Will I miss Jags? Yes;luckily we've got a ready made replacement: step forward Mr Heitinga!
If like Michael states it's all Everton's doing then how do they know about another bid??? Have Arsenal told Everton they are going to bid higher and for them to leak it to the media. Some strange logic on here??? I'm confused...
I began supporting Everton in the 70's and have seen countelss side built and rebuilt over the years and I would admit that each era has had it's own attractions, Bob Latchford, Andy King, Mick Lyons, The Rat, Steven, Reidy, Bracewell and Sheedy,... fucking brilliant and I enjoyed the good and the bad times...
Unfortunately those were era's when we could compete, and the trophies weren't distributed each year to the same 4 sides.
Now I live in Ireland, I never miss a game on Sky and travel to Goodison, 3 or 4 times a season. I know the side isn't likely to be winning the league any time soon because cash has changed the game beyond compare, but the players who have worn the shirt with pride over the years, the ones that would bleed blue for the club, well that's why I support this club.
As a supporter and regular at Goodison from 1971 onwards, I think we have always appreciated hard working players in spite of their lack of jaw dropping skill. The players mentioned by Liam above, Latchford, Lyons and even Reidy were not the most skillful players ever to wear the jersey but heroes all the same, it's great to have classy players in the side {my personal hero is still Duncan McKenzie} but those players always have to be balanced out with workhorses, unless we're talking about Gordon Lee picking the team!! Imagine having him here today... No 2: T Hibbert... No 3: someone like T Hibbert... No 4: Someone Like T Hibbert... etc etc.
Cash the cheque before they cop it. On another note, Arsenal are a passing side, not Jags strength.....
They're not one of lifes big spenders and will always try and get a player on the cheap, plus Jags is English and Wenger very rarely buys English prefering cheap unknown imports he can mould, whereas Jags is practically the finished article, seasoned pro and international to boot.
They've tried unsettling him through the press, then with a ridiculously low bid and from what I can see it hasn't worked, so maybe leak a possible second bid to the press and see what happens again by the look of it Jags being the pro he is just smiles shrugs and gets on with it, so no matter what the outcome Jags my old mucker you have my admiration for that alone ? unlike that prick Lescott.
I actually agree with you! How's about that?
I was gonna post something similar about them being done. Hopefully not just wishful thinking...
"Cue talk of an acceptable offer of £18m. That is from Everton not Aresnal!"
Don't remember seeing that on the OS mate or Moyes or Kenwright or Elstone saying that, the more accurate statement would be... "That is from the papers {depending on which one you read} and most of the time they spout shite."
That is a very fair point you make about competition although if we accept that we will never be able to compete at the top level again that is both depressing and something I somehow can't accept.
Steve it is one thing to say we appreciate hard working players but to claim to support the club because of them is a different matter entirely in my book. As for defining what would constitute an Everton great I would say there has to be some criteria people should have to fill
1. To have sublime talent and be able to produce it when it matters
2. To be recognised beyond Goodison as outstanding in their position.
3. To have won something or made a huge contribution like scoring pots full of goals like Latchford did
Players to fit the great category since I started watching Everton would include such players as Alan Ball, Neville Southall, Brian Labone, Howard Kendall, Trevor Steven etc
Players like Duncan McKenzie, Ferguson (Duncan not Mike) are obviously icons well for many people.
I have not mentioned people like Alex Young because I although I saw them I cant really remember them too well. But when you have a documentary made about you called the Golden Vision I think your status is pretty much confirmed.
Here is the contentious bit without doubt the most talented player I have ever seen wear Blue shirt sadly now wears the Red of United. Whatever we think of him it was a tragedy that we had to let him go and in a different era we would not have sold him and could have gone to the be the greatest Everton player of them all. Discuss!
What is so sad about our plight is that we are not far away from having a squad capable of consistently challenging the best,
Maybe if Alex Young had had the same TV exposure that Rooney etc. have had then you might be in a position to see Young as the genius he was. These days there is so much saturation coverage of football from every angle that we can appreciate- or not- the ability of the likes of Rooney etc. so it's a shame that yourself and younger Blues can't drool over our heroes from the past to the same extent.
The same can be said for the likes of Best, the main footage we see of him is where he lobs the Spurs goalie.
Yet we can almost see Rooney going for a dump. Or shagging a granny.
As for people claiming we were in a bad position for selling Rooney why wasn't a 30m price tag put on his head earlier without bullshit addons, we might then of had time to sign a replacement for the little rat.
Ed@86 Rooney probably would of been a Everton great but i dont buy the line "he had to move" No kid born in Croxteth or anywhere in Liverpool should ever want to play for any club other than Everton or the RS. Its a dream to play for the club you support not to win things which is a nice bonus or to have pots of money. In any case he could have given another 3 years at his age if Moyes failed to build a good side around him then play elsewhere. What he gave us was no loyalty, no time to sign a replacement and never a good word about the club until recently.
So why Jagielka is any better than him I don't know. I never blamed Lescott, he never put us in this mess - in fact he did more to get us out of it than most at the club. Massive profit and a great couple of years out of him.
Lets face it - we were always going to sell Lescott. We just wanted to look like we were prepared to play hard with Citeh. We'll do the same with Jags but what choice do we really have if Arsenal genuinely want to pay mega money? The only question here is how much do Arsenal want him - they've been quite happy to walk away from deals in the past.
And of course, no blame to Jags if he goes. Great opportunity for a bloke who has given his all while in blue.
The speculation had been there in the January window but he still signed a contract in the March taking him upto around £50k a week. He also went on holidy to Dubai and stayed in the same hotel as Mark Hughes and John Terry, who Sitteh were also chasing heavily at the time.
I don't really blame Lescott for going and I think we did well to hold out for double what he was actally worth; however, I think the way Mark Hughes and City went about things (threatening to go above Moyes's head and talk to the 'money men'), was the thing that really pissed everyone off.
For me though selling Jags would be a mistake. He is one of our best players and I don't see the point in selling to buy. Would much rather see the back of players like Bily who are less important to our cause.
Fair points mate, although ironic that you mention Alan Ball in your list, if memory serves me right, he was sold against his wishes because Arsenal made an offer we couldn't refuse, a bit like the Rooney situation in my opinion, so maybe we wouldn't have kept Rooney in another era ?
It's also ironic that all of us now wring our hands and get so frustrated at clubs poaching our players, knowing that if they make the right offer. we'll sell. The very thing that we used to do to other clubs during the sixties and seventies.
As it turns out, the better of the two players stayed.
Totally agree.
Part of me can't wait until Moyes leaves then the people on here who call him every name under the sun will soon disappear when we get relegated.
And if Arsenal can be persuaded to pay £16/£17M for Jags then I would expect Moyes to reluctantly take it. He should be working on Yobo's confidence as, if Jags does go, Yobo will be back in the squad.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
Top of the Page
1 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:10:50
Report abuse
People will argue both ways. With Rooney, the money was paid over two tranches of £10m in 2 seasons, the remaining £7m cap was based on club achievements and Rooney signing a new contract. I believe that cap of £7m was eventually reached.
Lescott was brinksmanship, and I can see it from both sides. I lost what little respect I had for Hughes after his press talk to unsettle the player, however nouveaux riche clubs like City will pay up front, not on the drip, and if an early deal could've been done, it should've been.
Wenger / Arsenal seem to be having similar problems with transfers to us, albeit from a much better starting position!