Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

The morning after...

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A bad week for Everton and a very depressing week for supporters. I would like a new board and a new coach but that isn't happening any time soon. So what next? What straws are to be clutched at? Is there a silver lining?

When David Moyes took over, he stated that he wanted to remove the label "crisis club" from Everton. To his credit, he achieved this. The label is back but bigger. It's got to be dealt with. We need to be looked at differently.

Maybe we can re-brand ourselves as the first club to embrace reality. At present it looks like Jagielka is our most likely saleable asset. Of course I'd like to keep him but £17 million is good business and we can cope without him. That money should go straight to the bank reducing our debt substantially and make us look less cash-strapped and more, err, prudent. Offloading the Yak and Yobo will cut the wage bill again. (I'd keep the Yak but that's unlikely.)

As for silver linings... well, by all accounts Ross Barkley is it. Plus a pal who was at the match, who is admittedly a staunch Moyes supporter, is adamant we didn't deserve to lose.

I have stated on other threads just how disgusted I was yesterday but this is where we are and life must go on.

Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 21/08/2011 at 11:24:52

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Sam Hoare
1   Posted 21/08/2011 at 13:15:50

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We were pretty abysmal by what we were capable off but i'm pretty sure we didn;t deserve to lose. They had one maybe 2 chances and we had 5 or 6. We weren't clinical and they were.

I would like to see some of young guns given a chance vs Sheff Utd and the following team:

Howard
Neville Duffy Distin Baines
Rodwell Fella
Arteta Barkley Mcaleny
Vellios

For me that team has strength and heigh at the back, steel in midefield and some spark and creativity up front. If Vellios is ready then start Saha. Beckford is not a lone striker.
Andy Peers
2   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:05:31

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Sam, you are as bad as Moyes. One striker against Sheffield United!!!
Michael Mcloughlin
3   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:24:24

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There are 2 strikers there in Velios and Mcaleny
Rob Murphy
4   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:27:31

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Might have seemed like a springboard on paper but after all the goings on during the week the whole club from top to bottom had 2 choices-roll up the sleeves & come out fighting backs to the wall which we'v been quite good at past few seasons or simply feel sorry for ourselves & not show up.Unfortunately and most worryingly we chose the latter.We've lacked ideas and creative spark now since Arteta did his knee in 2009 but we've always had spirit.I know it's a term overused by the media to describe Everton under Moyes,but it was true.Yesterday was a chance for the club to make a statement-WE'RE EVERTON-one of the most successful clubs in English football,spent more time in the top tier than any other club.

Sadly,yesterday's performance proved to me that we are EVERTON-the next Leeds Utd-a once great club ruined by mismanagement from top to bottom.
Andy Peers
5   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:31:57

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Michael, I know Mcaleny is supposed to be a striker but Sam has him in a behind the lone striker. I guess you would call this a 4-2-3-1 formation. Sam clearly implies 1 up front as he states when mentioning Beckford is not a lone striker.
Brendan O'Doherty
6   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:48:21

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Had a horrible dream last night about going down a spiral staircase......

Still stung and smarting today from that apocalypse. Made much worse because the hope was of course that we would put the off-the-field stuff behind us, and get a lift from matters on the pitch .

It was and will remain an unmitigated disaster, for which board, manager and players all share responsibility. For the first time for many years I genuinely fear for our future.




Gary Heywood
7   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:34:28

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It gets even worse, Neville has just signed a 2 year contract. He is well past it already. He is a comlplete liability. He and Hibbert should be sold to a Championship club.
The other players that should be sold are Distin,Rodwell,Cahill,Saha,Yobo. This money must be spent on improving the team.
Fellaini's best position is just in front of the back 4.
Barkley is not yet good enough for the Premiership.
Jagielka must not be sold. He would be a terrible miss.
Yakubu must be played all the time to get his match fitness back.
Billy should be given an extended run to get his confisence back.
We had a bad miss and hit the cross bar against QPR and that was about it. Our general play was negative and unproductive. When QPR began to realise what a poor team they were playing their confidence grew and in a few spells we couldn't get the ball off them and they showed superior technical ability. This is very worrying because QPR will definetly end up in the bottom 6.
Richard Dodd
8   Posted 21/08/2011 at 14:57:56

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Andy,you may have something there! One of the` Freshy Mob`-an economics lecturer-suggests that Kenwright`s smartest move would be to see through the sale of Jagielka and Baines and use the cash (£35M?) to pay off the banks.That would free up the lines of credit and allow Moyes to cover the gaps with loan signings.The thinking goes that our vastly improved financial position could make us a much more attractive proposition to a prospective buyer.........always providing we didn`t get relegated in the process,of course!
Chris Bannantyne
9   Posted 21/08/2011 at 15:16:03

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Gary #7

Barkley not yet good enough for premiership? He probably has many things to learn and improve on, but he was the best player yesterday (some might say Distin, and baines is never crap)

But if Barkley isn't good enough then who is??? The rest of the team stank out the place yesterday.
Michael Brien
10   Posted 21/08/2011 at 15:55:33

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The blame is with Moyes - he decided on the tactics in yesterday's game. He is only to ready to accept the priase when the results are good - when they are bad he blames the players.


1.Rodwell - played out of position
2. Fellaini on for Beckford leaving us with no recognised strikers on the pitch and 3 on the bench.

Moyes thinks that he is untouchable, above any criticism. " In Moyes We Trust" - a foolish and misplaced trust in my opinion.He is without doubt the most over rated manager in the Premier League.

Could another manager get more out of the squad of players that we have ? Absolutely - I think that there are 19 other managers in the Premier league who could have picked a better line up than Moyes did yesterday. He thinks that he is above any criticism and for far too long too many Evertonians have acted as if he is beyond any criticism. Harry S Truman the US President of the 1940's and 50's had a plaque on his desk with the legend - " The Buck Stops Here". Take note Mr Moyes and all you Davey Lovers out there - the responsibility is with Moyes - he picks the team - he decides on the tactics. In my opinion he has become Gordon Lee with a better PR machine nehind him. But he would do well to remember that you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Gavin Ramejkis
11   Posted 21/08/2011 at 16:18:43

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Doddy cant see the logic of this cleaing the credit lines to get loans onboard and their wages would do what? Three guesses take on more debt that we cant pay at the moment. Loans cost money too in wages and possibly a loan fee
Sam Hoare
12   Posted 21/08/2011 at 17:48:35

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Andy, fair point. I think Mcaleny or Barkley could both play as forwards. Sadly we don't have any good 'strikers' at the moment so am doing the best with what we have...
Steve Woods
13   Posted 21/08/2011 at 18:23:18

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Doddy of all the players we can not afford to offload it's Baines.
Steve Woods
14   Posted 21/08/2011 at 18:23:18

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Doddy of all the players we can not afford to offload it's Baines.
John Barnes
15   Posted 21/08/2011 at 18:47:07

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Gary #7, Jagielka would be a terrible miss if he was sold? Selling would be the best business we could ever do in my view, especially at 10 -15 mill. watch how many things he did wrong for the QPR goal. i just cant believe Heitinga or Duffy are so bad that we have to hang on grimly to a Championship player. He's just no good. I agree with others here that Baines would be a huge loss because we would struggle to replace him. Agree that Yakubu should be used whilst he's picking up wages - and we are desparate for goals. We are so well off that we can afford not to use players on the books? Others on here have listed the wrongs of Moyes' puddled thinking, selections, blind loyalty etc etc. and .... ah fuck it. Whats the use? Why should we expect anything different? what have we seen season after season, game after game? I get the choice of watching every PL game where I live and watch most of them live and recorded. So I think I can rate us against the rest of the league. I'm afraid we will struggle badly this season and Moyes wild expectation of 10th I would take right now.
Michael Kelly
16   Posted 21/08/2011 at 19:36:55

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I wouldn't give Moyes 35 pence, he is a big part of the reason we're in this mess. Dithering Dave needs to go.
Terry Downes
17   Posted 21/08/2011 at 19:44:59

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£15 mill for Jags? If that's so, I'll drive him to The Emirates myself.

We should have sold him months ago and bought Scot Dann in and still have £6 mill over.

Poor management.... piss-poor board.
Andy Crooks
18   Posted 21/08/2011 at 20:00:55

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I think that Jagielka is the only player who will attract a substantial fee that we can afford to lose. Certainly not Baines. In the absence of a new Everton we need to fix the old Everton as best we can.
Tommy Coleman
19   Posted 21/08/2011 at 20:47:17

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Dodd, i actually agree with you here.

For me, clearing the debt is the most important thing the club can do to start to move forward.

Remember, a £45m debt costs you £90m by the end of the loan.

Tommy Coleman
20   Posted 21/08/2011 at 20:52:05

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Plus, the modern player has no loyalty towards his club, therefore i see no reason why a club should not see players as assets.

Develop the players, sell them at profits. Keep this system until we are in a position not to be a selling club.
Brendan McLaughlin
21   Posted 21/08/2011 at 21:09:06

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Andy Crooks sounding positive and supportive. I didn't realise things were actually this bad!
Gavin Ramejkis
22   Posted 21/08/2011 at 21:33:49

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Tommy the way BK does business the £45m debt keeps getting consolidated, it'll never get paid off whilst he's still here.
Gary Heywood
23   Posted 21/08/2011 at 21:30:18

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I think Barkley was played because for some reason we didn't start with Arteta and Fellaini. Also with Coleman and Billy unavailable I suppose Moyes had to play Barkley. Barkley is a maturing player who is not ready to start games and help to win matches. It's totally unfair to expect him to do this.
I don't think any Everton player gave a man of the match performance against QPR.
Jagielka alongside Baines is our best defender. He has become an international player and played exceptionally well for Everton on many occasions. I would say he is not as focused as much as he should be at the moment because of the transfer speculation. It's very similar to Lescott's situation. You just cannot replace players like Jagielka with short term knee jerk signings. Just like Distin is not a satisfactory replacement for Lescott. A team with a weak defence will not last very long in the Premiership.
The main player we should be selling is Rodwell. There was a lot of hype last season about how good he is but this is starting to die away. We really should have cashed in on him by now. The longer we keep him the the harder it will be to get a good transfer fee for him because he is not developing into anything special.
Anthony Lamb
24   Posted 22/08/2011 at 00:17:18

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Gary,
I do have to take issue with your lauding of jagielka. A remendous recovering, dogged tackler of a centre back but you will go a long way to see a poorer distributer of a football. I would disagree with part of your statement that "you just cannot replace players like Jagielka with knee jerk signings". I agree that knee jerk signings may not be a sound policy but I feel he certainly can be replaced. I am NO great fan of Heitinga. But the Dutch national coach selected him at centre back in a World Cup tournament, indeed for a final. Leaving aside any outcomes of that for a moment, can you ever envisage Jagielka being chosen for a World Cup final? Perhaps Heitinga MAY be worth turning to if Jagielka's transfer could raise much needed and substantial funds. Perhaps only a coaching set-up such as Mr Wenger's could improve Jagielka's current dreadful inability regarding the passing of a football?
Jamie Sweet
25   Posted 22/08/2011 at 05:22:46

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I think there is becoming an increasing acceptance with the fact we have to sell some of our assets to balance the books.

It is a disgrace that we are in this position, but the first step in solving a crisis is to first accept that you are indeed in a crisis.

The only way forward for me from this point of despair would be to sell players around the age of 30 (Jags, Arteta, Cahill, Yak, Yobo) while they still have value in the market - plus one of our younger stars (Rodwell, Fellaini) if absolutely necessary. We then should bring in younger, cheaper prospects from the lower divisions or abroad, on lower wages, who will have re-saleable value in the future.

Start from there - pray to God it works and we stay up. The club clears most of it's debt, becomes a far more attractive investment, and Uncle Bill can then fuck off before he completely destroys the club we love - if he hasn't done so already.
Michael Brien
26   Posted 22/08/2011 at 06:40:38

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It seems to me that Moyes comes out of this very well. Rodwell didn't have a good game on Saturday - but that was hardly unexpected - is he a right sided midfielder ? Is going down the wing/flank cutting in for a shot/or getting to the bye line his main strength ? Clearly it isn't - then why was he played in that position when Osman could have played as the right side midfielder.

Moyes seems to be basking in the knowledge that he is apparently " untouchable". Well if Wenger who is a far better manager than he is can be criticised then so can Moyes. Face the facts people - he got the tactics completly wrong and his substitions were almost beyond belief. A manager is supposed to give the team leadership and direction - we got very little of that from Moyes on Saturday.
Joey Brown
27   Posted 22/08/2011 at 07:19:30

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I've been leaning to selling the lot since last season, even when were playing well it just seems to have gone stale. I'd really like to sell Jags, Rodwell (if anyone still wants for £10+mill) Heitinga, Bily, Yobo, Yak, Arteta, and probably Felli just for the sake of funds.

That could earn us £60-70 million I'd imagine. With that we could clear out the debt and still buy a few more Vellios and Gueye type signings who are at least good enough.

I'd be shocked if we didn't still stay up with:

Nev Hibbo or Duffy Distin Baines
Coleman Osman Cahill Gueye
Beckford Saha or Vellios
... and then 3-4 young replacement types.

I'd be a gamble, but paying all of these huge wages for a team that at this point doesn't seem to have much to play for would at least be exciting. We'd also have the hope of a future with the reduced wages and the opportunity for at least a £10 million of so transfer kitty every season.

It's time that Pride no longer becomes a factor in this club and common sense does. Sell the lot, battle to stay up, make profit instead of debt.

Gary Heywood
28   Posted 22/08/2011 at 08:44:16

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Joey #26 we would be relegated before 2012 with that team.
Gary Heywood
29   Posted 22/08/2011 at 08:52:10

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The teaem that we must keep together for this season is:

Howard,
Coleman, Heitinga, Jagielka, Baines
Osman, Arteta, Fellaini, Bilyaletdinov
Yakubu, Beckford

Ciaran Duff
30   Posted 22/08/2011 at 12:10:02

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Hey guys,

I think I have sussed out what Moyesie is up to. He's trying to hang on to all his best players until the transfer window is shut. He sent everyone out either under prepared or in the wrong position, so nobody would buy them! Cunning bastard.
Wenger to buy Jags after that goal - no way. Rodwell out on the right - good one. Fellaini up top to frighten off Chelsea - classic. Obviously forgot to tell Barkley the plan though!
It also explains why he didn't play Yobo or the Yak - he actually does want to sell them but knew their value would drop if they were associated with our crap performances. Obvious, when you think about it ;-)
Ciaran Duff
31   Posted 22/08/2011 at 12:16:47

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How about this song for the next game (to the tune of "Where's your Mama gone" :-

"Where's Yakubu gone, where's Yakubu Gone.
Where's Yakubu gone, where's Yakubu Gone.
He's not far away,
He scored the other day.
Can we afford his pay.

Where's Yakubu gone, where's Yakubu Gone.
Where's Yakubu gone, where's Yakubu Gone."


Ya gorra laff.
David Thomas
32   Posted 22/08/2011 at 12:20:21

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Anthony,

"I am NO great fan of Heitinga. But the Dutch national coach selected him at centre back in a World Cup tournament, indeed for a final. Leaving aside any outcomes of that for a moment, can you ever envisage Jagielka being chosen for a World Cup final?"

Yes i can, if he was in a national squad competing with the central defenders that Heitinga was up against.

Could you see Heitinga getting a game i a world cup final if he was competing against John Terry or Rio F?
Dave Wilson
33   Posted 22/08/2011 at 13:49:15

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"I had a horrible dream last night about going down a spiral staircase"

Relax Bendan lad, defeatism isnt a jailing offence.

should be though
Brendan O'Doherty
34   Posted 22/08/2011 at 14:30:59

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Defeatist Dave ?

How is it defeatist to be shell-shocked at losing at home to a newly-promoted club on the first day of the season ?

How is it defeatist to genuinely fear for our future after the recent events both on and off the pitch ?

I have applauded you for your support for the team when the chips have been down and the brickbats have been flying. But you cannot bury your head in the sand forever Dave. The selection of a 4-4-1-1 line-up in this game was inexcusable. As was sending out a team which looked unprepared for the new season. I was at the game against Bohemians and saw the signs there. I chose to ignore them, thinking that it will be different come Saturday. Well it wasn't, and my support for Moyes is now hanging by a slender thread.

Like I said in another thread, we can't go on like this.


Anthony Hughes
35   Posted 22/08/2011 at 14:47:25

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Your right Dave defeatism isn't a jailing offence but 1 up front at home to a newly promoted team with injury problems and who got walloped at home last week should be a life term.
Des Kenny
36   Posted 22/08/2011 at 15:20:37

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They can take away anything, but they can't take away your dreams. That used to be a very true saying until a certain BK got his teeth into Everton. Now he has burst every bubble going and it really is `DOOM AND GLOOM`, with absolutely nothing to look forward to.

I'm old enough to remember when we did have something to look forward to, when we had a chance. Oh for the olden days.

Andy Crooks
37   Posted 22/08/2011 at 17:44:17

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Brendan, I never thought you would be tipped over. Welcome to reality.
Brendan O'Doherty
38   Posted 22/08/2011 at 18:12:49

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Andy, I haven't been tipped over just yet. But I'm standing on the precipice....

Patience can only last for so long, and I've reached breaking point.





Andy Crooks
39   Posted 22/08/2011 at 19:13:38

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Dave, realist doesn't equal defeatist. Realists see the problem and advocate change. Defeatists think the battle is lost. It isn't and I don't think many on this site think it is.
Robbie Shields
40   Posted 23/08/2011 at 11:16:28

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Vive la revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moyes out !!!! (Possibly even sooner than November Dave, still laughing??????? Penny for your thoughts when thousands of fellow Blues roundly boo'd when he took off our only striker for a midfielder when we were 0-1 down at home to the mighty QPR)

Kenwright out !!!!

Well done the Blue Union 3 !!!!!!

The revolution is under way.....

... And we'll fight fight fight with all our might for the boys in the Royal Blue Jersey.........
Dave Wilson
41   Posted 23/08/2011 at 20:13:42

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Robbie sorry to disappoint you, but youre wrong again, dont mistake one little attention seaker playing up to the camera as thousands of boos, it wasnt. The boos came at the end.

Actually everyone around me had been screaming for Beckford to be dragged off long before he was - I think everyone of them could have controlled the balls that were bouncing off him. Saha is obviously not fit, so it was a bit obvious.

Am I still laughing at Moyes gone by November ? Well I`ve suspected he was on the brink of walking for some time, I thought he would taken the Villa job. but I`m pissing myself at your suggestion that he`ll be sacked.

Shows you how out of touch you are.

When you say "fight, fight, fight." is that the bit where you stay up till one oclock then whine like fuck about it ?


Andy

Realist ? only if realism is to expect the worst possible scenario and claim every minor setback is the end
Robbie Shields
42   Posted 23/08/2011 at 21:48:56

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Dave, I really do admire your unwavering support of DM, I really do. It sounded like there was a lot more than one person booing the substitution of Beckford with a midfielder on the Telly in Australia, perhaps someone impartial might offer their thoughts on how many it was.

Beckford did have a poor game, the reason my friend is that our master tactician played an out and out striker as a target man on his own again. An accusation leveled at Moyes time and time and time and time again, God this is getting repetitive. Beckford did EXACTLY as he was told...... Play with your back to goal, run after every lost ball and hoof like a headless chicken and if you can, create your own chances. His touch got a lot worse the longer the game went on, notice that? It's called fatigue, you mind knows what to do but your body is so shagged it can't work at your normal pace.

Unless Moyes changes his game plan and philosophy PDQ or has an awful lot of luck, his time is up.

I says it as I sees it, when what I see changes, I change what I says, that's why I am not a mad man.

Moyes out, Kenwright out!
Dave Wilson
43   Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:48:00

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Robbie

dont delude yourself Mate, Beckford had a poor game because he is shite. I mean proper, proper shite. He wasnt up front on his own, he had the equaly useless Cahill along side him - in advance of him most of the time.

I dont want much, a few bevs with my lad and his mates before the game, a few with my old school mates afterwards. and in between I want to watch Everton players do something with a football that I couldnt.

I was ok at footy, not professional standard, but both Cahill and Beckford failed to do a single thing between them that I couldnt have done. . .thousands must have felt like me.

Both have a goal in them but Beckford was gutless and Cahill was clueless on Saturday. their inability to control the ball shamed EFC and embarressed many fans.

Attack Moyes all you want but if we had a half decent striker, who didnt miss the sitters Cahill did-, or didnt stand gormlessly watching crosses fly across the goal - like Beckford - we`d have beaten QPR in a canter.

And that allowing for Captain Hoofballs nightmare.

Moyes out ? Only when he`s good and ready. Too many other people getting money for old rope
Dave Wilson
44   Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:34:24

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Oh and Robbie

Doesnt matter where you play or what formation the manager uses, if you control a ball like Cahill and Beckford, you will kill the team you are playing for stone dead.
Robbie Shields
45   Posted 24/08/2011 at 08:18:41

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Fair points Dave, can't argue with any of them. I don't think Beckford is as bad as some are making out though, for me he's an out and out striker. Linekers first touch, control and passing was terrible, but he scored 40 goals playing with a Centre Forward in the form of Sharpie up front. If you'd put Lineker in our team now on his own I don't think he'd score 40 goals somehow, he'd struggle to score 10, just like Beattie, Johnson, etc. Etc.

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