Toffeeweb again goes into over drive on Moyes yesterday following defeat to the Oilmen of Manchester.

Plenty of moaning - but I have never seen one decent credible alternative put up by anybody. I have seen plenty of names put up on managers who have since been sacked or foreign managers who are unlikely to leave clubs who are in and around champs league with prospects and cash to spend. So gone then - give me your best.

Vellios? Give me a break. One goal against the mighty Wigan (fuck all else the rest of that game). Nothing else since.

The lad was on the pitch for 1/4 of the game and scored a goal -- there wasn't much of a "rest of the game" to judge him on, FFS.

He comes on against City and creates the best chance we made all game with what was his second real touch of the ball. He's a natural striker, at least, and has demonstrated he's up for it and is therefore worth giving more playing time to.

Ok Ian @ 1, as you have probably not tuned in to what a lot of people have said in various posts. I have seen a lot of fans posting various options but I guess you haven't read them eh.

I think Lyndon has made a case for Vellios and I agree. Saha as he must be fit and maybe look at Gueye and Drenthe. Oh and lets not forget Straq.

So that gives us some attacking options or don't the players above play a) in goal or b) in defence?

We could always ask the coach driver to play next week as I am sure he has more experience at parking a bus if thats the type of football you want to watch every week.

I gather by your post that you wouldn't consider the options above and believe that defence is the best form of defence. Are you David Moyes or what?

Mike, I understand that you are trying to be realistic / pragmatic, but using Vellios and Drenthe as examples is way off the mark; we have looked much better as an attacking force with these two on the field (and old Dracularsi as well).

For me the fundamental here is that there is a negative mentality at the Club at the moment. Off the field this has been covered in great depth and has divided the fans and alieneated many from the Club's management. On the field, Moyes admitted he set the team up to stop City playing; on MotD last night this was made very clear, we had all our 11 men in our penalty on many occasions and the fact that with a bit more luck we could have got a point does not justify the tactics (NSNO anyone?).

Moyes can get the team playing half-decent football, as we have seen over the last few years; indeed last year his success against the "big" clubs (having a go) made up for the many poor performances against the rest. Yesterday, though, he chose the tactics and they were wholly negative. "What can he do about it?" ? you ask; how about giving the other team something to think about (other than how to break us down)... play a recognised striker instead of the increasingly injury-prone and out-of-form Cahill.

We have a few difficult games coming up and the attitude and associated tactics need to change if we are to get anything from these games. Much as Kompany's tackle was a nasty one and he should have been sent off, he may have done us a favour if Cahill is now injured, as it will hopefully force Moyes away from this 4-6-0 crap.

Cannot believe that my fellow fans support such mediocrity. Is there no chance of Moyes being positive for once?

The football served up this season home and away except for Villa has been abysmal. I know we have no money, the board etc etc but any chance we could go out and try to be positive?

Moyes had lost us the match yesterday before the game with his comments ? and this feeds to the players. IMWT ? in mediocrity we trust.

"I think most people need to get real because this is how it is"

This might be "how it is" but, 'hey' it doesn't mean it's right or that people have to be in fucking agreement with it"

"Yeah, the mighty Spurs tried that one and got well turfed over."

Guess someone forgot to tell Fulham that it's futile to resist, 'hey' ?



"Hey, I cannot take much more of the shit turfed up at GP or at away games myself, but, what else can Moyes do?"

Well, 'hey', maybe he could, erm...try something different. Perhaps name a more attacking line up instead of being overly cautious every single game. Every time the team news filters through before the game the audible groans and utterances of "for fucks sake" fill the air. People are entering the ground thinking 'here we go again, same old shite' before the game's even started. No wonder the crowd at Goodison has been about as enthusiastic as a vibrating blow up doll with real bush but no batteries for the last 10 months.

"It's going to be 4-6-0 all the way, keep EFC in the EPL and take it from there"

I'm so glad I renewed my season ticket

John6#
Without moyes we wouldn't be in the perm.
Oh yeah we could play and put a formation out like Blackpool did or try and play like martinez does at Wigan and we would be fighting delegation every season and eventually go down..great

Vellios done fuck all else against Wigan? He set the third goal up too. Since then there has only been one game before Man City which when we brought him on at 1-0 down he helped us turn it round to win 2-1. Cahill was played upfront but can't hold the ball up, which meant they continually retained possession. Surely Vellios would have been a better option?

You would have thought Moyes would have learned from the West Brom game that Cahill should not be used upfront on his own because he can't hold the ball up when we play this long ball approach! If you're going to play these negative tactics you need someone upfront who's either quick and can catch them on the break or is big and can help retain possession, Cahill is neither (through no fault of his own).

Chris 7

Absolutely agree, easy to say play an attacking formation as you point out Blackpool last year and Wigan are playing in that style. Even Man Utd play with Rooney behind a lone striker, so even they don't go gung ho.

I thought Joe Royle made some good points when he said that the trouble with playing Saha is he is injured more than he is fit so you get no consistency. Also, it is all very well bringing on Velios for the last 20 minutes, it is a lot to ask the lad to play the full 90 being so inexperienced.

Strange how the pundits were saying that many other teams who go to the Etihad may use the same ploy as Davie Moyes and employ a marker for David Silva. They rely very heavily on Silva creating things for them. But not many on here will say how tactically aware Moyes was to use this tactic, a ploy that almost worked till Ballotelli's deflected goal.

Mike do you actually watch Everton or did you just feel like having a go at Velios?
Against Wigan he played roughly 15 minutes and turned in a good performance.
Same again against WBA in Carling Cup.
Yesterday he chased down several lost causes creating our best chance in the process, and I was just coming round in Arowe Park hospital after an op.
Next time you submit an article please get it right!
You're probably a decent bloke but came across as a complete tit because of this article.

For all the posters who support Moyes and his 'park the bus' tactics, I hope you renew your season tickets so you can talk to each other at opposite sides of the ground! We have some decent players, it's the manager that's the problem with his negative formations and talk!

4-6-0 would have been nice to watch Mike.

Instead we were treated to 10-0-0

We played 4-5-1. Cahill is a striker, stop saying he isn't. People on this fucking website have been saying for 2 years that Cahill should not be in the midfield, Moyes agrees and has said he views him as a striker. So he is now using him as a striker. Why? Because he works hard and has throughout his time here gotten goals. Saha? He loses the ball constantly and is unwilling to work as hard as Cahill. Vellios? He's scored one fucking goal in his career. The Argentinian? Really???? We had a strategy to contain an attack minded City and it was going well until a deflected goal.

David # 12, Cahill is an attacking midfielder not a recognised striker. Moyes uses him as a centre forward because he knows Tim also puts in more tackles than the rest of our mid field put together.
Just another example of Moyes not committing to all out attack.

Mike - there have been several comments about Vellios. I will only add this - he is a specialist striker get it a SPECIALIST STRIKER. In the same way so is Saha and so is Strac - but Moyes would rather play an experienced player out of position than a specialist striker.

You may be happy with Moyes negative tactics Mike - but I am not. The object of the game is to score more goals than the opposing team - do you think David Moyes realises that?

Vellios and Strac may be the real deal - they may not - but there is only one way to find out and it's NOT by just giving them the odd 10 minutes game time is it ?

I have to laugh when I read in the press or see somebody on TV saying that Moyes gives young players a chance!!!! Really in the last 4 games Vellios has probably been on the pitch for about 40 minutes - I think he has posed more of a threat than Cahill in that game time. And that's not having a dig at Tim - Cahill has done very well - but he has been battling against the odds because he is NOT a striker.By playing him out of position it means we are not getting the best out of one of our main players.

And David - face the facts Cahill is not a striker, holding the ball up to lay off for others, playing as a target man isn't his game. Did you see the Wigan match ? Things started to happen when Moyes brought strikers on. The Man City game - we had 2 strikers on for about 10 minutes and in that time we looked more threatening than in the previous 80 minutes.

Well, I had an "enjoyable" evening debating this in some of the hostelries in Manc. My considered view, after considerable beers, was that this Man City team was a very different animal from that we'd played against, and beaten, previously. Mancini has built from the midfield - two ostensibly defensive midfielders, but surrounded by quality, pacy, creative players.

Yes, we got what we deserved, Man City dominated from start to finish and it felt like it was just a matter of time before they broke through - deflected goal or not.

Whilst it was great to have 3 strikers in the squad, it is something of an indictment that none started. Our "attacking intent" was evident by the fact that on the rare occasions we got a corner, we'd often have 4 in the box, with 7 defenders.

I can just about stomach that approach away at a team like City, but as others have pointed out, starting like that at home against QPR is hardly going to have the crowds returning. It's still early days of course, but I don't see many other top flight clubs being about 3k down on last seasons average gate. Why is that?

Any argument which includes the drivel such as "we would be relegated without Moyes" etc is laughable and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Moronic statement with absolutely no foundation.

Mike OP, I applaud you for being able to put up with watching the sporting equivalent of bending over, waving the white flag with one hand and handing over the lubricant with the other.

Have you ever seen a boxer win a fight without throwing a punch?

I cannot believe Vellios is getting slated! He is only 19 and has made 6 substitue appearances for us!

Nevermind who you think should or shouldn't be playing upfront, to slag this guy off is ridiculous.

"one goal against wigan then fuck all else". Not only is the statement false, but if it wasn't what more do you want from the lad? He came on and scored the goal that put us back in the lead.

I've had enough of these clowns - give the lad a break! He has probably looked our most effective striker in the limited time we have watched him this season. And that probably says everything you need to know about the strikers at our disposal.

The shite spouted about Vellios in the original post negates the rest of it.

Factually inaccurate rubbish.

No team have contained City as well as we did on Saturday this season. We lost because of a misfortunate deflection, and then gave the ball away at the end for a second. If we would have played attacking... we would have lost by four or five. Anyone who knows football, who has seen City play this season, who realises the significant gulf in class, would realise we needed to park the bus. Leave your ideals at the door, we are dealing with real life here. Unfortunately 60% of the members, like most fans who post on the supporters site, prefer fiction to reality.

I?ve seen Fulham mentioned as ?proof? that we could have played better by playing differently... obviously these posters did not watch the match, but irrespective let's deal with the obvious differences first;

1) Fulham were at home;
2) City played in the Champions League, Fulham in Europa in the midweek before. Both us and city played in midweek, but we did not rest a complete team unlike City, and played to 120mins (resting some, but playing some again on Saturday).

Beyond that, for those who watched the Fulham game, City contributed massively to their own downfall, by going defensive and losing control of the game. The two circumstances are not comparable. Fulham would not have got a result at City playing like they did at home. The only chance for most teams, will be to park the bus at City and play on the counter (Napoli did a good job of it).

We spent nothing in the summer and are unique in that respect. We spent barely anything the season before. We have consistently been one of the lowest net spenders in the league in recent seasons (Compare us to Villa and Spurs, and those above.)

We always start seasons badly. Managerial blame? Perhaps? Because we go to America? Perhaps. Because we need the money that America brings in? Most probably. Irrespective of that, we have 7 points from 5 games. It?s not great, but it?s not awful.

Apart from Old Trafford away, City is the hardest place to go. Losing to QPR was poor, but undeserved, and QPR?s tactics (as anyone who followed them last season will know) are better suited to away football. We beat Blackburn luckily, but beat them nonetheless, should have beaten Villa and beat Wigan. We?ve also won twice in the Carling Cup. 4 wins from 7 seems pretty good to me, isn?t it? Given the doom and gloom that surrounded us before a ball was kicked, are the state of things so very bad?

Please bring some realism into this domain. If we played attacking football.... we would win some games we have drawn and lost... and lost some games we have won, we would lose. Barcelona wouldn?t win so many playing defensively... Greece wouldn?t have won the European Championship playing offensively. The poorer the team... the less easy it is to attack and be successful.

If we had Man U?s money or City?s, I'm sure we could and would attack and we would all sit pleased in the stands. Unfortunately we do not, and sticking two up front isn?t going to turn us into winners.

Please stop the blind praise of Vellios... he has looked promising yes, but nothing more. When strikers come on as sub, they inevitably change matters, especially at home. Even Bendtner looked ok as sub. But they do well, because they are a sub, because they are playing against tiring legs and are full of running. The Greek striker will not win us games from the start. Saha might, and let?s hope he gets fit and does.

Moyes has been successful. He has not won trophies... but success is relative. Where we have finished in the league, with our net spends, is success. When he goes, we will go. Please bring some realism into the domain. Please.

Guy#20 well said mate.

Jim @ 21 - a good sensible dose of realism, and I agree with much of what you say - particularly when it comes to dealing with the top sides with an abundance of world class attacking options available to them.
If we'd have tried anything other than contain City on Saturday, we'd have been embarassed....however - where we are playing a team like West Brom, at home - a team that came and parked two banks of four and showed little attacking intention except on the break - why the hell are we playing with two holding midfielders - Rodwell and Fellaini?
It took the usual goal on the counter to force Moyes into the more positive approach he should have taken at the start - pushing Fellaini upfront with Vellios. Suddenly we had options and openings upfront and the rest is history.



Its not the fact that Moyes tries to contain the likes of Man Utd or City with a careful formation - its the fact that he generally sets up the same shape against those sides we should be more confident of attacking.

I wonder how he'll approach next Saturday???

John #6. Your response was a bit like the pub banter you would have with your mate?s, but the problem is, we ain?t mates. Keep your sarcastic bollox to yourself.

Anthony #8. The third goal against Wigan was created by other wonder striker Stracular.

Andrew #18. Applause accepted.

Tom #19. Regarding Vellios - fair comment, you see something I don?t and if I had Moyes?s hear I?d tell him that there are fans out there who think Vellios is the man. Though we all know Moyes is a stubborn bastard and that he won?t play Vellios just to piss them off ? absolutely fuckall to do with his knowledge of football.

Guy #20 and chum # 22. What the fuck is it that you two know that I don?t? Your opinion, regarding Everton, is based on what you see and that?s exactly how I would read it ? your opinion. To call my opinion ?factually inaccurate rubbish? leads me to think you know more and that you are not some fucking wooly back blue, getting pissed because Moyes didn?t play his Torres quality strike force at City.

Hey, Mike, no need to go on the offensive. Moyes doesn't.

"Keep your sarcastic bollox to yourself."

Nah.

Calm down and move on. If Moyes got his tactics wrong then it was the first time in three years at City. He's played one up front for the last two seasons and won, but City are now a class act and we couldn't get enough of the ball. That's nothing to do with formation, even if it may have been too defensive for some. There are bigger battles ahead of us.

It's not pretty but this stuff about "We're Everton, we deserve better" etc etc is meaningless while we have a clueless board who will take us down the pipe. We've played good stuff under Moyes in recent years, via Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Donovan but his job is getting harder if we keep selling our best players and not replacing them. Let's focus on beating the shite now.

The club is strapped for cash, so why not sell Anichebe, Vellios, Saha and send Denis back to Argentina? There's no point in paying them all wages if there not going to be used. Then we could use some of the money to buy Titus Bramble and play him as a lone midfielder...