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Stale vibes

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Despite the dreadful result last night, I didn't really feel much different after the game to how i did after the game at WBA on Sunday. Although we won on Sunday, the game was so poor to watch that it hardly felt like a win.

Last night's performance was almost identical to Sunday's and to be honest, extremely similar to the vast majority of games this season. The only reason we are as comfortable in terms of being away from the bottom 3 in the league is because our dour approach to games means that they are always low scoring and therefore we are sometimes able to nick a result.

I'm all for 'nicking a result' (we often did this in season 04/05) but i'm sure we weren't as bad as this back then and the drop in attendence surely confirms this. What stikes me at the moment as well is, we have no one in the team who can really get the crowd going (Big Dunc, Tommy Gravesen-style) and this probably contributes a little bit to the poor atmosphere at games.

Anyway on to the management. I've been on Moyes' back a lot this season, but to be fair to him he did what we all seemed to want last night and played 2 up front and I think it just becmae glaringly obvious, if it wasnt already, that we have next to nothing up front. The remaining anoyance i had with him though was that he still persisted with the unbelievably negative combination of Neville and Heitinga as our midfield pair. How can he possibly think this is a good enough midfield partnership? Heitinga cannot run and is a centre back anyway, whilst Neville has seen much better days.

Is getting rid of DM the solution? I think quite possibly that it is. Forget the money situation, forget the ground situation, the manager is paid to pick a team that will try and entertain the fans. At the moment that isn't happening whatsoever anywhere on the pitch. I know some people will argue that he is doing the best he can with what he has but although i don't like making comparisons with other managers/teams, take Paul Lambert at Norwich for example.

Would we take their squad of players over ours? No. Would we take their style of play over ours? Yes. Why? Because their manager attacks teams and gets the crowd buzzing.

I don't think getting rid of Moyes can be called a knee reaction anymore. We've stagnated and gone stale under him and when the fans starting voting with their feet like they have started to, that is when the alarm bells should really start to ring. When was the last time we were involved in what we could class as a really exciting game?

I rest my case. Coyb
Matthew Roache, blackpool     Posted 05/01/2012 at 15:39:36

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Nick Entwistle
1   Posted 06/01/2012 at 00:43:02

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I've said before that who ever you choose for the middle two they going to be fairly lacking in dynamics, even Rodwell and MoFro. And even worse none to play behind the striker - would love to see Bily there but is it ever going to happen. Without these positions filled properly its unfair to right off our strikers, and everywhere else we're as good as ever... erm, under Moyes.

The money argument is fair. We're now a selling club, but a new manager is not what's needed. Sure theoretically, O'Neill could have come in and given us a bounce in performance but long-term, other than more adventurous play, would it be an improvement on Moyes? O'Neill is up there as a very good manager but for real advances you're looking at top of the line Hiddink quality but we may as well wish for Messi to join us.

At worst, Moyes will bring us in where we are now, mid-table, but despite the financial constraints Moyes is still the way forward and expect a challenge on Europe.
Alun Jones
2   Posted 06/01/2012 at 00:56:10

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Hi some of your points are valid but there seems in alot of these posts increasing cases for ditching Moyes and bringing in some one new, Paul Lambert I see is one of your suggestions. For me its far too early to judge Paul Lambert and Norwich , all too often new additions to the Premier League do well initially (maybe even for one season) and then fall by the wayside. At this stage in the game I will stick with DM over Paul Lambert any day and I bet we finish higher up the table than them.
John Barnes
3   Posted 06/01/2012 at 01:16:12

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Alun, Finishing above Norwich! Fantastic achievement. Jesus, how low have we fallen? The Moyes supporters on here just dont seem to get that most of our first choices; Moyes' Boys are washed up and past it so whilst in previous seasons we have witnessed our unspectacular team doing enough to end up in 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th I think it will be beyond them this time around. Our poor starts are lasting longer and eventually we wont do enough to turn it around. The evidence is there to be seen by many but ignored by some, worryingly Moyes is amongst them.
Eric Myles
4   Posted 06/01/2012 at 01:29:39

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Agree with the overall sentiment Matthew, I personally don't care whether Moyes stays or goes as I don't think the situation will change dramatically with a new manager.

As you say our players are stale and getting staler each match and the only way that will really change for the better is by buying new ones. We need to be replacing the older players anyway like Neville, Cahill and Saha.

You say "The only reason we are as comfortable in terms of being away from the bottom 3 in the league" But are we comfortable? 8 points above the drop and half the season to play, and the way we're playing at the moment is anyone optimistic that we're going to turn it around? (Except you Doddy).

"the manager is paid to pick a team that will try and entertain the fans" In this Sky money day and age I'd say the manager is paid by the shareholders to pick a team that will stay in the Premiership pig trough and sod entertaining the fans. Case in point ? Everton.

And although the last few performances are causing a lot of 'never going again' posts lately I think the main bulk of the crowds being 3,000 down on average from the beginning of the season is the 'never going again while Kenwright is owner' crowd from last season.

In short, a new manager may or may not change our performances, and maybe results, in the short term but it's the longer term cancer that's destroying the Club from within that needs to be addresssed. BK must be pissing himself laughing at how the focus has now changed from him to Moyes

NSNO - Need Some New Owners.

Kenwright OUT.
James Stringer
5   Posted 06/01/2012 at 01:59:07

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We are paying for 30 years commercial mis management and failure to kick on and invest (in goodison as much as the team) particularly when needed at really pivotal moments:

1) In the late 80s glory days.
2) Kings Dock - obviously a huge missed opportunity.
3) Only 2-3 years ago we had a very good side assembled prior to sales of Arteta, Pienaar, Lescott, style of play easy on the eye and genuine top 5 or 6. We needed a quality striker and to retain best players ? sadly did not happen.

It is very hard to constantly miss these opportunities and recover quickly.
James Stewart
6   Posted 06/01/2012 at 02:16:13

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Pointing the finger at Kenwright is a pathetic cop out. Does Kenwright pick the team or the tactics? I think not. Personally I can't stand Moyes or Kenwright but you can't lay the tactical failings of Moyes at Billy liars door.

The Bolton Line up was absurd. Why goes through Moyes's mind when he is picking that midfield?

I agree with the initial point that it felt not much different to the West Brom game. Shite to watch and we barely look capable of getting a shot on goal let alone scoring. That is Moyes's tactics. Let's "nick one" is simply cowardice. I don't want Moyes nor do I want some other dour scotsman like Lambert. Does anybody not watch football outside of the vastly overrated EPL?!

They are some managers working on shoeshring budgets who are far outperforming and entertaining the likes of Moyes, Lambert, Rogers etc
Roman Sidey
7   Posted 06/01/2012 at 02:17:24

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The thing that I don't understand about Moyes's most ardent supporters is this:

The whole squad isn't performing. Some of us think that the forwards aren't firing because they have no service. Some think the defence is leaking goals because they're under pressure because the forwards aren't scoring. The forwards aren't scoring and the defence has no protection because the midfield is weak as piss. The midfield is weak as piss because Moyes picks people in the middle who aren't CMs. The real CMs aren't playing because they're either injured, or deemed not good enough by Moyes. The ones that are injured are, arguably a result of a poor training regime, and under-par medical staff.

From that, you can deduce that the ENTIRE squad is not performing and, therefore, not earning their compensation for their role at the club. Natural order of things - who is earning the most but doing the least?

People, I give you... David Moyes!
John Barnes
8   Posted 06/01/2012 at 02:14:14

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James, Every blue on the planet agrees with you on Kenwright, and possibly more importantly his cronies on the board. My concern, and relevant to the OP is Moyes performances this season. He's paid a huge salary to deliver results and/or performances. So far he's been as bad as all of his players.

Kenwright doesn't pick the team, dictates tactics and, so we are told, decides who we release / sell when the bank needs money. 10 years is a long time to build, set up a succession plan etc so why have we so many players who are well past it now? Perhaps Mancini, Ferguson et al would struggle with the dross we have in blue shirts at the moment.

Would Moyes do better at City or Utd? Who knows? The question is would we be better off sticking with Moyes? Previous seasons' evidence says "yes" probably. My own experience of 50+ years watching 1st div / PL football says it's time to change the manager before it's too late. Should we have stuck with Smith? Obviously "No". Similar scenario now.
Paul Ferry
9   Posted 06/01/2012 at 02:47:20

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Absolutely spot on James Stewart. Heaping of the blame or whatever we call it on Kenwright is nothing short of myopic, small-minded, and, quite frankly, pathetic.

So, we have little or no money. Moyes knows that but he doesn;t walk. So, deal with it Moyes and earn your £65/70k. Kenwright does not pick the team; choose formations; tell people where to play; decide tactics and follow the game to respond to it; make subs; make changes to his game plan as the game unfolds; talk down our chances before a ball is kicked; and so on and so on and so on. Moyes says that he is the lead voice on incoming and outcoming, and he also accepts that this pattern and trend of negative lack of creativity and shocking performance is down to him. Look closely at the use of the first person by Moyes here.

The Everton manager admits that the paucity of home victories has done nothing to entice fans back to the Blues' home games.

"I am a football supporter, first and foremost," Moyes is quoted in the Daily Mail. "I know how it works. If I am winning games, supporters will turn up. I, as manager of Everton, have not won enough games this season for them to come.

"I have not entertained them enough. We have not scored enough goals. I need to do that to get the supporters to fill Goodison."

The post(ers) on here deflecting blame away from Moyes live in Kenwright-Moyes-Messiahland. Those short-sighted comments are precisely the reasons why we are treading water and one day might sink deeper. Kenwright is an easy target and is the most responsible for the criminal handling of EFC funds over the last decade or so. But the ginger headed misery must take full responsibility of each minute of each game.

A gobshite asset-stripping chairman and a witless negative coach who spells creativity "safety first". Good grief, it's great being a blue these days.
Eric Myles
10   Posted 06/01/2012 at 03:04:05

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James, Roman, John, Paul.

Even with a new manager we will still have the same problems of stale, insufficient and aging players who are not very good.

Get a new owner and if Moyes carries on the way he is he'll get sacked because he won't be covering the new owners arse the way he is with Kenwright's.

Result for everyone.

NSNO - Need Some New Owners

Kenwright OUT
Jamie Sweet
11   Posted 06/01/2012 at 03:00:49

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If last night did anything - it proved that Moyes is as fucking gutless and adverse to attacking football as ever.

So what if he played two up front. The fact that he combined this with a centre midfield comprising of two defenders shows that he simply hasn't got it in him to play attacking football.

If you think that it is entirely Kenwright's fault that our clueless manager went with that tactic against the league's bottom team at home, then I don't believe you understand the game of "soccer" very well.

Kenwright is to blame for a hell of a lot of things that are wrong with this club - but playing "3 square pegs" out of four midfielders isn't one of them.
Paul Holmes
12   Posted 06/01/2012 at 03:12:19

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The manager gets paid to sort the playing staff out: players, tactics etc. You cannot blame Kenwright for the shambles against the bottom team Bolton, who deserved their win!

It's Moyes that's the problem and until all the supporters unite to get him out, he is here picking up his £60k weekly wages forever with NO PRESSURE from the club to sack him! He has the BEST job in football at Everton!
Jamie Sweet
13   Posted 06/01/2012 at 03:21:12

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Moyes has become the most defensive minded, safety first, boring as fuck, gutless, clueless, bullshit tactician I have ever witnessed at any level of the game.

That's what last night proved to me.
Paul Ferry
14   Posted 06/01/2012 at 03:21:06

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Eric, the way you put it does make real sense to me and I always believe that the lion share of the blame for off-pitch shenanigans is squarely in Kenwrong's large lap but that what we see on the pitch, even given zilch quids, is by and large down to Moyes and his selections and tactics for which he is paid a princely salary and could walk if he is not happy.

Honestly I would be intrigued by a change of ownership but doubt, given recent years, that a fat pocket new owner would give Moyes the chance to stay with us (as many seem to think he/she/they will). So, the question for me for the most part is here and now and I genuinely feel that a change of coach might bring something new, some flair (I hope). But, I agree, it is just that, hope. But I'm now in a position where I'm prepared to risk it.
Jimmy Sørheim
15   Posted 06/01/2012 at 06:06:02

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I know Moyes is fed up here, you can see it in his face. If you do not enjoy coaching Everton then get out!

I will join every one of you who wants to protest against Moyes. Because things are not improving and after 10 years I think it is time to change things... Round and Moyes can both go and take Neville with them.

We do not need a world class manager, just one who knows and likes to play attacking football, and knows how to get good players for little money.

One would think Moyes is one of a kind in this world, the way some defend him. I have news for you, he is just an above average manager who is overly defensive and stubborn, he drives attackers away like nobody I have ever seen.

Look to Europe for a new manager, the most important thing is to start the process of getting him out. Moyes himself said he would stay unless the fans got sick of him. I and many with me are sick of Moyes now, we need a breath of fresh air, a manager that breeds a smile along with philosophy of attacking positive footie. After 10 years Moyes you have done all you can do, leave us now and take a break.
Stephen Kenny
16   Posted 06/01/2012 at 07:37:11

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It's fair to say he played two up front, but he also had a centre back and a full back in centre mid. Neither had been used in CM except in emergencies or to do a specific man marking job before they signed for us.

The centre midfield pair had no legs and as a result got the runaround. I wouldn't play Neville in there EVER and I wouldn't play Heitinga unless it was an injury crisis, which to be fair it was. I can't see how at least one young, eager pair of legs couldn't have done at least the job Neville did?

That means we had six predominantly defensive players on the pitch at home to a side bottom of the league, co-incidentally also missing thier two most influential midfielders through injury.

Nicking a result was brilliant in 04/05 because we should have got beat most weeks with the side we had. This year we've still got a better side on paper than all but 6 teams in this league, thats why it feels different. We were also very well drilled and tight defensively, that's well gone. Most weeks were all over the show with no ryhme or reason to our set pieces or positional play. What I'd give for a Richard Gough type now.

There's no spirit or fire in this side either, nobody who gets you going, nobody who looks like they really, really care. Some of them get booted, jump up and shake hands and then beg the ref not to book the fella that just booted them. Half of them must be after a presenting job on Cbeebies when they retire.

In a lot of games this season we beat ourselves.
Michael Brien
17   Posted 06/01/2012 at 08:14:04

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David Moyes may have picked 2 strikers from the start for the Bolton game but I think that the real test is if he gives this a chances by trying it for several games and not just one. I think the " he hasn't got any money to spend" excuse is becoming a bit tired and worn out now. There are many managers in the same/similar position and they just get on with the job unlike moaning or is it dithering Davey??

He plays 2 strikers but then negates that with an ultra defensive midfield. Could another manager get more out of the squad of players that we have ? That is the key question I believe. And the conclusion I have come to - reluctantly I might add - is that the answer is yes.
Sam Hoare
18   Posted 06/01/2012 at 08:51:58

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I definitely agree with the OP that things have got stale this season. I think over familiarity is why alot of fans are staying away and why the team is looking so bereft of energy and inspiration.

Personally i put this down to the boards failure to give Moyes funds to bring someone in.

The last player (that wasn't a punt on a kid) that Moyes bought was Heitinga two and a half years ago FFS!!! Check out www.evertontime.com No wonder things are a going stale. And whats worse is that first team players have been sold during that period. 3 or 4 by my count.
Andrew Laird
19   Posted 06/01/2012 at 09:00:25

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With the smallest squad in the entire league, how exactly are we the 8th highest wage spenders? something does not add up.

Too many pensioners bleeding the club dry?
Wayne Smyth
20   Posted 06/01/2012 at 09:14:10

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Absolutely Andrew. Moyes is turning into Wally mk2, but instead of Gazza and Ginola we have McUseless and Neville sucking the club dry of money and producing bugger all.

We have a squad full of international players, yet Moyes cannot get them to play decent football or get results against sides' with worse squads than us. This tells me Moyes is a very limited coach and isn't willing to bring in the right kind of people to coach his players.

The interview with Vellios was telling. 10 years into Moyes tenure, he allows Big Dunc to join a backroom staff dominated by defensive minded people. Immediately vellios is really grateful to get useful information about what the fuck is required from a centre forward - other than defending corners!

Bolton probably had a handful of players who would get into our squad on ability, yet they were the ones able to play football on the deck, pass, move. We made them look like Real Madrid at the end. I'm sure we pay higher salaries than Bolton and Moyes is paid a shitload more than Coyle.

Our inability to play decent football, create chances and beat "lesser" sides is a hallmark of Moyes tenure, especially in the last few years when he himself has lost belief, so this is not a knee-jerk reaction on the back of a few poor results.

Having players like Arteta and Pienaar make it easier to play better football and create stuff, but ultimately the players are professional footballers with bags of ability.

Our players may not all have pace, technical dribbling skills and agility which are difficult to coach into developed players, but they can be taught to pass the ball on the deck and move and show for each other and in that way you try to compete and make the best of things.

Quite simply, Moyes is doing a piss-poor job with the resources currently at his disposal and has made a catalogue of errors these last few years, e.g. selling yak for nothing.

Kenwright is also doing a very bad job, but while Moyes stays, he provides the implicit( and explicit) support which kenwright relies on to stay in power.

Both of them need to go, but Moyes limitations are having a far more direct impact on our club and he's also the only one who is likely to walk.
Tony Pickering
21   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:09:23

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I hope we don't get a new affluent owner whilst Mr Moyes is in charge. I think he would waste any funds available on buying players who may be pretty darn good but he cannot weld into a decently attractive attacking team.
He proved an eye for bargains (eg Cahill Arteta) and certainly organised a hard to beat side with Cars in midfiled. But attractive? Entertaining? Not really, though certainly better than currently (maybe because they won games more often)
He has bought in some decent players at higher costs (Fella, Yak, even Beattie) but his approach to games is overall too negative to make the best use of the better players he gets.
Sadly, if Messi and Ronaldo turned out for us week after week I fear Moyes would ruin them. A good coach for defenders and defensive midfielders but a bit of a disaster zone for forwards and creative players' careers.
So, for me a new owner - yes, but on the field it is Moyes' responsibility so he must go before (or as part of) the new owner's purchase.
Tony J Williams
22   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:06:26

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Who else was Moyes supposed to put in the midfield?

I would agree that he was being ultra cautious if we had other players to replace the experience of Heitinga and Neville.

Our results are genuinely better when Neville is playing and we found out that Rodwell wasn't fit enough to start, Drenthe is injured, everyone on here hates Bily and Gueye has been nothing special when he has been on the pitch. Evertyone wanted Cahill dropped and McFadden is McFadden.

Apart from pinning all our hopes on a young lad who has played a couple of games, who else do we have to play there?

Osman has been the stand out player in the last few games and Donovan was straight back in.

Who else could he have realistically chosen to start in the centre of midfield?

The "wrong 4-4-2" brilliant.

Also I see the keyboard warrior Jimmy is at it again, telling everyone to protest against Moyes from a different country.

"Alun, Finishing above Norwich! Fantastic achievement. Jesus, how low have we fallen? " - Allun, it wasn't put forward as an achievement, he simply said that Moyes will finish above Norwich, nothing further to look in to it.
Nick Entwistle
23   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:12:20

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Sure the man picks the team, tactics etc, but this is not what he has been building for 10 years, as the team's been dismantled in the last two (he might say players leave on his say so but that's not true is it). The only players bought were for an outlay a division 1 club would consider generous.
There's not a club in the Prem who haven't had these restrictions and if you want to blame stagnating stale football on Moyes then there's your reason.
He doesn't help himself Moyes sometimes, but accusations of being blinkered can go both ways.
Ray Robinson
24   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:28:27

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Tony #22, I'm no fan of McFadden but if he wasn't going to get a game on Wednesday, why the hell did Moyes re-sign him?
Stephen Kenny
25   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:25:11

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More attacking options than Neville in midfield with what was available?

Gueye on the left Osman inside

Cahill, not great but better. has better mobility and looks forward, is a marginally better passer.

Barkley, The most promising player since Rooney and according to some pundits the future of English football.

4-3-3

Bily, Haha nah forget that one.

Rodwell, he got injured because he never warmed up proper.

Not great options I will concede but IMO would almost certainly seen us play a better style of football than what we played.
Stephen Kenny
26   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:33:48

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BTW despite Gueye not being a bona fide left winger he put in four or five good crosses in the short time he was on the pitch and has looked like scoring every time he's come on.
Tony J Williams
27   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:20:23

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"Sadly, if Messi and Ronaldo turned out for us week after week I fear Moyes would ruin them" - No he wouldn't.

Name me the players he ruined and have left to go on and do better things, because surely when they are away from his evil clutches they will suddenly emerge like a Phoenix from the ashes of his poor management.

Yak has done the same with every club he played at, scored well and then stop playing angling for a move and anther pay day.

Ray Robinson
28   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:44:43

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Arteta isn't doing too badly at Arsenal.
Tony J Williams
29   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:40:55

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Ray, I have absolutely no idea why Moyes re-signed the Scottish Rooney.....fuck me. the Scottish Rooney....Christ on a bike.

Siephen I was hoping our secret weapon would come on but what I saw on Wednesday night is a lad with no right foot who struggled to actually control the ball. He is not our saviour either.

I would love to know what is happening with Barkley and hopefully we will find out now as Johhny has to play in the centre back role now, as I cannot see him putting Duffy in there yet.
Dave Wilson
30   Posted 06/01/2012 at 09:45:45

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"We have a squad full of international players"

Sorry Wayne, I cant have that for one single minute.

Howard ; International but not in the same league as the guy across the park - who is now Spains 3rd choice.

Hibbert ; No

Disin ;EX international will never play fo France again.

Jagielka ; Gets into a very poor England team - but only when 2/3 others are declared "unavailable"

Ossie ; No

Neville ; EX international

Saha ; another who will never get near the French team again.

Straq ; your having a laff

Cahill ; If he represented one of the top footballing countries his international career would have been over long ago - thats always assuming he`d have had one.

You cant have it both ways Wayne, if we are going to say our team is full of middle aged crocks - which it is - You cant then make out that they are "international superstars"

We do NOT have better players than those clubs around us - how many of our team against Bolton would have figured in Owen Coyles plans ?

People like Cahill, Neville and Saha should have hung up their boots ages ago, but this boards inabilty to back the manager with the funds to bring in younger fresher legs has allowed them luxury of some kind of footballing semi retirement.

When Fellaini, Coleman, Rodders and Anichebe are fit, none of the semi retired will play, but all four are already showing signs of the Darren Andertons so my guess is that Moyes will continue to be forced to inflict the old brigade on us. Barkley might have a bright future, but he still has has obvious flaws and it would be wrong - fucken unfair - to ask a teenager to carry this particular fight.

I can understand Kenwright deluding himslef into thinking we have a squad full of internationals, but I expect the knowledgeable Evertonian to know different.
This team needs investment NOW.

We are DYING as a club and people are fretting about playing 4-4-2.or how long we take with a throw in.

If you want to do something constructive, throw your support behind BU, because If we dont strengthen NOW, the few decent players we have got will be offski . . and all the Lamberts/Coyles/Rodgers in the world wont be able to save us
Mike Manchester
31   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:48:09

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Duffy next for a go in midfield?

Actually that was a joke. Moyes is stable if uninspiring, but Bill; if he really is the best man to be selling Everton really needs to SELL, or we'll be going down in the next few years.
Richard Dodd
32   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:47:08

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Whatever you think of Bill Kenwright, we are where we are and getting rid of Davey Moyes is unthinkable! Whatever the constraints, whatever the style the manager chooses to adopt, you cannot argue with his record over the past TEN years. He has more than done the job he was brought into do... keep Everton in the top division!

Okay, we may lust for the magic years of Catterick and Kendall Mk 1 but that was a different era and a far inferior competition. Personally, I wasn`t around in those far-off days when Everton were `the money-bags club` but, like Blue Bill and the majority of our fans, I recognise that NOW is a different world and that, big though we once were, survival is now the name of our game.

Yes, we can HOPE for Europe or a top half place ? and Davey has brought us both ? but we have no RIGHT to either and, stale though our football may look at this precise moment, we still look like getting home to safety with points to spare.

Unlike so many, I like my Everton as it is ? it`s how I`ve always known it since a kid. I don`t want it flogged off to any `Johnny Come Lately`. Yes, BB and Moyesey ARE joined at the hip and that`s WHY we`ve survived so long on so little money. Long may it continue!
Stephen Kenny
33   Posted 06/01/2012 at 10:52:31

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Tony,

Someone posted the Yaks stats and what you say doesn't pan out with the one season wonder shout. I don't hold that against Moyes like some. I don't think overall we have anything to complain about transfers wise, I do think mistakes were made with the handling of him though.

True Gueye is very left footed but so what, he played on the left. Surely your not suggesting he shouldn't play for that reason alone.

I didn't notice him struggling to control the ball much, I saw he put a good few decent balls in.and tried to have a go at thier fullback who had a good game.

IMO we shouldn't be looking for any of the young lads to be our saviour, we shouldn't need one, just to play up to thier ability. They have all got it IMO.

For me playing Donovan and Gueye off a front man with a solid three in a midfield that contains one of Barkley or Osman in a free role is our best bet towards scoring enough goals to win games at this point.
Tony J Williams
34   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:09:15

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"Arteta isn't doing too badly at Arsenal" - In what sense has Moyes ruined him? he was always our best player and calls for him to be included in the Spanish squad were rife.
Stephen Kenny
35   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:10:00

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Richard we all know you're a fool, you don't have to keep proving it!!!!!!!
Sam Hoare
36   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:13:03

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Dave Wilson, well said. People lambasting moyes are ignoring the clear deficits in our squad. It's no better than alot of teams around us and desperate needs freshening up. No new transfers in two and a half years!!
Tony Pickering
37   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:06:50

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Tony J - Hi! Players Moyes ruined? Maybe overstated, but when Beattie joined us he was a bustling goalscorer, Johnson was fast and scored. They were both asked to work harder in defence and run around more than be goal scorers. Yak - agreed on his normal trick, but for goodness sake why buy him without knowing what type of player he is, then sell for peanuts when he doesn't do things in training that apparently he never has done.
/>Maybe they didn't go onto do better, so maybe they changed having 'made the big time' - but they seemed to be doing better before they came here than they did for us.

Out and out creative guys or goal-scorers will not - in my opinion at least - progress their career very far under Mr Moyes. Beyond doubt in the main - defensive minded players have improved under his managership, whilst others have not.

I am not completely anti-Moyes at all. He did a great job stabilising our club but I fear we reached our zenith with fourth place (with a lousy goal difference) and unless we change things around (because it seems he wont change much) then we will not improve significantly However, I do think that he will not produce - on any budget - an attractive or attack minded team. It is not his - or his coaching staff's nature.


OK, I take back the Messi/Ronaldo comment, it is hard to ruin brilliance even if you do want them to turn into defenders - but they wouldn't dream of signing for us - or David Moyes - anyway.
Al Reddish
38   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:18:58

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Does anyone know how many loan players we are allowed to have? I ask this because Moyes has said we will have to look at the loan market as we have littl or no money (despite bringing in around £20m in the summer and spending none of it!), and as we already have Drenthe, Strac and Donovan, I dont think we will be able to loan many more.
Tony J Williams
39   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:11:47

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"Someone posted the Yaks stats and what you say doesn't pan out with the one season wonder shout" - I never said one season, I said at the end he stops playing and angles for a move.
Stephen Kenny
40   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:29:13

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Ok, I think you know what I meant and vice-versa either way his scoring is consistent throughout his time at a club. He's also a streaky player.

P.S nice diversion.
Tony J Williams
41   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:27:45

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Tony, when Meattie signed for us he was an injured overweight striker, he had a decent season and then turned gash. He was sold to a Championship side and had a great season for them in the lower league and hasn't scored since 2010 and that includes a 10 game stint in Scotland.

Johnson, again take away his pens and he wasn't a free scoring striker at all. he joined , played well and we got into Europe for the two seasons he was here. Went to Fulham and his stats plummeted.

"Beyond doubt in the main - defensive minded players have improved under his managership, whilst others have not" - Pienaar, Arteta both going nowhere and Moyes has transformed them. Gravesen managed to get a move to Real Madrid. We haven't had many creative players because we haven't had the money to buy them.

I can't think of any creative players that Moyes has apparantly ruined.
Matt Stephens
42   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:42:07

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If we did get rid of Moyes, who is their right mind would want to join a team that's going no where but backwards fast?
Dave Wilson
43   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:39:51

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Cahill has scored more than all the other midfielders - with a possible acception of Lampard - yet these "Attack minded" coaches have paid billions for theirs.

Baines had more assist, even more than "world class" wide players like Bale last season . he`s a full back

Not bad for an ultra defensive coach . .Oh and when was the last time a center half scored more than Lescot. . .and what have the Romans ever done for us ?
Ray Roche
44   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:45:29

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Tony J,

"We haven't had many creative players because we haven't had the money to buy them"
Do you not think that Moyes should be arguing his corner with Kenwright and demanding some of the transfer fees that we have recieved? Or complained a bit louder when our creative players have been shipped out? It's no good having a pop after the event and ruing our small squad..I have supported Moyes on these pages for long enough but it seems to me that he's no longer his own man but a Kenwright puppet his Bills hand up his jacksie working him. Bit like the Peoples Club's version of Orville the (dead)Duck and Keith Harris.
Tony Pickering
45   Posted 06/01/2012 at 11:46:52

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Maybe - as admitted previously - ruined was the wrong word. However the thrust of my argument is still reasonable - even with Pienaar and Arteta we were not attractive or attack minded and that is one of the points I was trying to make.

Yes, we were better with them for sure and yes they are creative. I think that they are not top-class players and that top class creative players are never going to get a career boost from being with us whilst David Moyes is in charge.

Hence my first, indeed most important, point about any change of ownership needing a new manager to use funds and build an attacking, attractive, and hopefully, successful team is valid.
Stephen Kenny
46   Posted 06/01/2012 at 12:19:48

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Two posts from Dave Wilson;

"Cahill ; If he represented one of the top footballing countries his international career would have been over long ago - thats always assuming he`d have had one."

"Cahill has scored more than all the other midfielders - with a possible exception of Lampard - yet these "attack minded" coaches have paid billions for theirs."

If players of his ilk are worth billions and he outscores everyone bar Lampard from midfield why would he struggle for a game for a better nation

I think your moving the goalposts to suit your argument there.
Alun Jones
47   Posted 06/01/2012 at 12:41:56

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John Barnes I don't disagree with your assessment of our plight. I Just don't think Paul Lambert is the answer.

As you already imply, it goes deeper than that; changing the manager in our precarious state would do more harm than good in my opinion.
Mick Gallagher
48   Posted 06/01/2012 at 12:53:51

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Richard #32 Moyes took over 10 years ago survival was what he had to do. Now 10 years on you say survival is the name of our game. Sorry mate but we are going back to were he took us from very quickly. Remember Walters last game Boro in the cup 6 defenders on the pitch remind you of anyone.
Peter Laing
49   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:02:49

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Have to agree totally with your comments Mike Gallagher # 47, I get what your saying and made a similar comment a few weeks back - we have turned full circle.
Mark Murphy
50   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:09:50

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Dave, you said:

"When Fellaini, Coleman, Rodders and Anichebe are fit, none of the semi retired will play"

I wish I could believe that but I honestly cant imagine Moyes leaving out Neville, Cahill and Saha.
Can you? Really?
Noel Lynam
51   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:15:07

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Dave Wilson,

No matter what way you spin it, Howard, Mucha, Baines, Heitinga, Jagielka, Fellaini, Bilyaletdinov, Cahill and McFadden are all experienced, current internationals. Saha and Neville are also experienced internationals, even if their best days are behind them. Plus the likes of Rodwell, Coleman and Anichebe are less experienced internationals. So we do have a squad full of internationals.

Tony J Williams,

While "ruined" is a touch strong/melodramatic, Moyes didn't exactly maximise the goalscoring potential of Yakubu, AJ and Beattie. Bily also comes to mind as an attacking/creative player who hasn't prospered under Moyes (although other factors may be at play there)
Tony J Williams
52   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:23:06

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"I think that they are not top-class players and that top class creative players are never going to get a career boost from being with us whilst David Moyes is in charge" - We will never know because we will never buy any top class players whilst Kenwrong is in charge.

"Do you not think that Moyes should be arguing his corner with Kenwright and demanding some of the transfer fees that we have recieved?" - Wjat;s the point, he knows there is no money there to give him so it would be futile exercise and a stupid one really seeing that he knows the answer already.


Mark, Cahill has been dropped twice this season, Saha has been dropped too, albeit not enough. Neville has had a stint on the bench too and was back when Rodders got injured.

How is it that when Saha plays shit he bever gets injured but the second he scores a goal his glass legs break
Ray Robinson
53   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:25:54

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Tony J #34 - Arteta was playing rubbish until he left for Arsenal, remember.

Al #38, was wondering the same thing myself. I'm sure that there is a limit.
Ray Roche
54   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:34:55

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Just found this on the web

"There are two types of loan, which I shall refer to as "short-term" and "long-term".


A short-term loan is for a period between 28 and 93 days, including the start date and the finishing date. (All loans are for a specific number of days, and technically there is no such thing as "a month's loan".) The player cannot be recalled by his original club during the first 28 days (although it's possible that such a recall is allowed for goalkeepers in an extreme case), but can be afterwards regardless of the original period of the loan. A club can have up to eight players on short-term loan during the season, but no more than four at any one time.
"
Tony J Williams
55   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:42:19

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"Tony J #34 - Arteta was playing rubbish until he left for Arsenal, remember." - Does this prove that Moyes ruined Arteta then? fecks sake!!
David Thomas
56   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:30:24

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"Unlike so many, I like my Everton as it is ? it`s how I`ve always known it since a kid."

Richard, I would hate to see the state of the club when you are unhappy if you like the way we are at the moment.
Richard Tarleton
57   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:39:28

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Moyes record with young talent is lamentable, his mishandling of Rooney meant we lost him earlier than was necessary, Rodwell (who was ahead of Wilshere at one stage) imitates the infamous Ray Wilkins with his sideways passes. Barkley had a good whole game aginst QPR, he was , in fact the only one who did and since then he's hardly played. Even Jose Baxter (currently on loan) would have been a lot better than Saha. The Everton academy needs to produce 30 year olds who play safety football and get behind the ball at all times. Creativity must be eradicated , that's the message coming through. Joe Royle wouldn't have played at 16 under this manager.
Tony J Williams
58   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:51:58

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Ronney, the granny shagger who was tapped up in the England squad and has been proven in court to be a liar, wasn't handled badly at all. He had almost 70 appearance for us. He went for the money and to play for Man U, who wouldn't?

Rodwell, the sef confessed centre half, pushed into midfield by Moyes and has now had his first full England cap....disgusting management!!

Baxter, setting League One alight with his massive haul of 3 goals.

Agree about Barkley to an extent, people are obviously viewing him with Blue tinted glasses and hoping he can be our saviour without much evidence that he can.
Richard Dodd
59   Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:34:23

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I do accept that, 10 years down the line, we have not made sufficient progress to merit a regular European spot... but who has? Spurs, the current press pin-ups? Aston Villa,whose ambition didn`t match their manager's? Stoke and Fulham,whose football is even less attractive than Everton's?

In truth, Moyes is very much the author of his own misfortune ? or more accurately his current unpopularity. He should never have got us to that 4th spot so early in his reign. Better had he started quietly and moved up the odd place, year on year.

Be that as it may, his average finish is around 7th and likely to be similar this season. Not too disastrous, eh? Just tell me how many supporters of two thirds of Premier League clubs would be happy to settle for that record?

OK, I know we are Everton ? success is ours by rights! Psst... that`s bollox!
Dave Wilson
60   Posted 06/01/2012 at 14:47:33

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Stephen #'46

Why am I moving the goal post ?

I dont for one minute suggest Cahill is a player of " that ilk" - you said that - players like Scholes, Giggs and Silva are light years ahead of Cahill in terms of ability, I could probably name a couple of dozen more, but Moyes has gotten more goals out of cahill. How did that happen if he was ultra defensive ?

Mark #49

Neville Cahill and Saha have all already been dropped this season, the first two are only back because of injuries, Saha plays because . .well you`ve seen what Straq and Velious did with their opportunities.

Noel #50

Yeah right; Neville, Mucha, Saha,Mcfadden, Bily and Hetinga are all internationals ha ha. So why dos everyone scream the house down if Moyes picks them ? . . and it may have escaped your notice but Coleman, Vic and Rodders have`nt /arent available. . . but your right of course, I`m trying to dress things up - with the facts
Mick Gallagher
61   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:15:33

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Richard #58 all that good work since 4th and a cup final apperance we are going backwards. We are turning into the team Moyes took over from Smith. To many defenders on the pitch and hope to snatch a 1.0 win.
Chris Rudd
62   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:15:11

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Dave W - "Saha plays because . .well you`ve seen what Straq and Velious did with their opportunities."

Saha - 12 starts, 3 sub apps, 1 goal
Cahill - 13 starts, 5 sub apps, NO goals
Vellios - 2 starts, 9 sub apps, 3 goals

". . . but your right of course, I`m trying to dress things up - with the facts"
Dave Wilson
63   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:23:47

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Chris

I`ve stated on other threads that I dont think Cahill should be playing, I think he should call it a day - but fair play to the guy, NOBODY can take his goals away.Thats another fact

Saha has proved in the past that he is good enough, but he too needs to hang him up.
Unfortunately IMO the Greek boy will never be good enough - hope I`m wrong

PS Nobody accused you of dressing anything up
Dave Wilson
64   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:30:45

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Saha needs to hang THEM up I meant - his boots
Chris Rudd
65   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:37:29

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Dave - I was just purloining your 'dressing up' line for effect.

I love Cahill, he's been a legend for us over the years but he really needs a break and to be used as an impact sub only now.

Saha has always been 'in and out' but there's way too much 'out' now and he's virtually getting in the way most matches, although I'd admit he's had very little support.

Vellios has done enough in scoring those 3 goals to at least deserve more game time in my opinion. I agree he may never be a worldbeater, but we're not really working in those circles are we. In other words he's 'done more with his (slender) opportunities than the 2 far more experienced players we're talking about.
Mark Murphy
66   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:42:49

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Dave and Tony,

Barkley was dropped and hasnt been seen since!
Cahill was dropped for half a game and brought back in soon as!
Saha doesnt get dropped - he gets rested and brought in soon as.
Neville was injured and brought in soon as.

My point, and my worry, is that Moyes would include all 3 in his first 11 if all were fit. I dont believe he will leave them out long term until they cant walk!
Dave Wilson
67   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:47:13

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I know you were Chris, but if anything you were supporting my argument, I think its ridiculous to protray either Saha or Cahill as international stars these day.

Unfortunately, I cant agree about Vellios. I dont think he has it.

You know what its like, we all have
occasions when we really wouldnt mind being wrong and this is one for me. I really wouldnt mind if he made me eat my words. - he wouldnt be the first
Tony J Williams
68   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:53:53

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"Saha doesnt get dropped - he gets rested and brought in soon as" You better explain that to Saha, as his Twatter page suggest he had been banned from the squad.

Neville was on the bench for a number of games, fully fit and raring to go.

I don't want to talk more about Saha, as I will start to get angry just thinking about him.
Stephen Kenny
69   Posted 06/01/2012 at 15:49:40

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I think were all skirting round the real issue which isn't really formations or who plays, it's really about the mindset that pervades our play that seems to come from the manager.

There were options open to him however limited and the way we play the game could have been altered. at any point through the game, and through this season. Certain things just weren't working as they haven't in the past.

Belief and confidence play a big part in Football and I don't think the managers actions and words are transmitting this to the squad. It feels like he's cutting his nose off to spite his face sometimes and I think he's pissed off (rightly so) but then he surprises me with a ringing endorsement of the board and chairman, so you have to say it's just how he is.
Nick Entwistle
70   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:11:35

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If Moyes had the money, even an average amount for transfers, he'd have replaced Saha, and possibly Cahill, but when you're stuck with a £100,000 punt on Vellios and a south american who Leicester turned down, who do you blame for Saha's first team starts? Moyes or Kenwright?
If he had proper service Saha would still be potent but he gets very little service that plays to his strength. Which would improve if Moyes had money to buy someone in the middle of the pitch... but oh wait, he's forced to sell Arteta and have no funds available... again, Moyes or Kenwright? What's that phrase... make do and mend?
Chris Rudd
71   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:22:31

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Nick - "If he had proper service Saha would still be potent"

Well he looked about as potent as a eunuch on Wednesday - getting the ball stuck under his feet twice about 8 yards from goal.

Perhaps he's wearing his boots on the wrong feet, I don't know. He did change them at half time so perhaps it's the boots fault.

We all know Moyes has to work with what he's got (and whose fault that is) but some of us don't think he's making the best of what's available to him, that's all.
Joe Bibb
72   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:03:10

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Richard Dodd, post 32: "Getting rid of Moyes is unthinkable." ? LOL a manager who is on £65,000 a week and has been here ten years still cannot form a team to play two up front. He has had Beattie, Johnson, Saha, Anichebe, Beckford, Vellios, Yak, Vaughan, Baxter, and others that have drifted away... even when he had Rooney the lad was held back.

We have been beaten at home by Stoke, Bolton, QPR. etc and you rattle on about Moyes not being sacked while O'Neill and other quality managers get snapped up. Stoke at home, Arsenal away, and not one shot on target 180 minutes of football!!! Are you seriously saying that for that amount of money Moyes is doing a good job? If he had Messi and Rooney he would still have one of them on the bench. He is no better than Walter Smith. Smith, in fact had more guile and was more tactically aware than Moyes.

Stay loyal to Moyes if you want but trips to Championship Teams will be your reward. The ground is emptying fast. Tamworth will see Moyes play his unfit untried reserves because his one and only priority is to get 40 points to avoid relegation. I have watched EFC for over 50 years only twice in that time did we face relegation on the last day.

Moyes has not done wonders keeping us up, only two managers in one hundred and thirty four years have failed to keep us up. Moyes could get another Worst All Time Record if he is allowed to stay. I know we have no money and can't sack him but relive him of his duties put Stubbs and Andy Holden in charge. The team in itself are fine its the negative boring tactics that are wrong.

Aston Villa who are a poor team went to Chelsea and won. Moyes has not done that in ten seasons in the League. Sunderland didn't go into a Gun Fight with a Knife when they played Man City they went toe to toe and won. Start to look at the facts, Moyes did not get us into the Champions League he lost the play off decider.

We were snotted in Europe by Dinamo Bucharest, Sporting Lisbon, Benfica and in the Premier League Arsenal tonked us 7-0 and then did us 6-1 at Goodison. If you are worried about Moyes leaving, tell me Who would want a Manager who in ten years at a top Premiers League Club has failed to win anything? Newcastle, Spurs Man City and Chelsea have all changed manager in the past few years, none wanted Moyes!

I along with many others will not renew my season ticket if this dithering inept fool is still in charge next season. We need to get the REAL Everton back, not the nervous 'play for a draw' negative boring Everton that we have to watch now.
Ray Robinson
73   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:27:58

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Tony #55, yes that's what I am saying. Moyes had Arteta playing too deep, stifling his natural game. Why is it that Rodwell who looked great going forward, Arteta who was by far and away the most creative player and even Felliani have seemingly been playing deeper and deeper? If it's not Moyes's direct instructions, then what is he doing to encourage box-to-box midfield play? How many frickin' holding midfielders to we need?

Arteta is thriving away from Everton.
Nick Entwistle
74   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:32:26

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I agree with you there Chris... but when the team don't score we look at the lot of them, but we overlook that Saha with one goal all season is probably lacking in confidence, as all strikers do at some point. And that wont improve until he gets the service his talent requires.
Unfortunately even with a half arsed Saha the other strikers don't have his mobility and pace... but then we're back at square one with Saha still being pants right now...

Anyone remember the days we were on channel five every other week. Mmmm, channel five.
Dave Wilson
75   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:42:48

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Come on Ray you cant have it always, Arteta, was voted player of the season twice for us when he was played out wide.

He came into midfield because he said he wanted to play there and Moyes gave him his wish, he was superb . .until the injury.

We have all heard Moyes screaming at Jagielka to shorten it up, so playing Arteta as a deep lying playmaker after fella was injured - taking the ball from the back four - wasnt a bad idea.

There seems to be an effort to make out all of Moyes`s options were open to him at the same time - They were most definitely not.

Due to the paucity of our squad, when one plates hit the ground Moyes has usually had to throw another one in the air and carry on juggling.

Ray Robinson
76   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:57:40

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Dave, I'm not talking about how Arteta USED to be ? undoubtedly one of the best midfielders that I've seen at Goodison. I was merely responding to a question as to which players have done well since leaving Everton.

Well in my opinion, Arteta is now twice the player he was when he LEFT Everton. Whether that is down to his fully recovering from his serious injury or down to the free licence that Wenger accords him (as opposed to the strict discipline that Moyes demanded) is probably the topic for a separate thread. It's my belief that the team ethic under Moyes, based on caution, was stifling Arteta. Just my opinion, I know!
Chris Butler
77   Posted 06/01/2012 at 16:58:03

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Moyes assembled a great squad from 2007 to 2009, but the failure to bring anybody in in the summer of 09 cost us. To then fail to bring anybody in the summer of 2010, then sell 3 strikers in 2011 is not the behaviour of a good manager. This season it's obvious that the failure to get rid of deadwood and change things has cost us. Every manager has had to rebuild at some point moyes did it in 07, he needs to rebuild the club desperately in January. I remember watching the build up to the FA semi that I recorded and Gabriel Clarke said "there's only so many times you can nearly succeed". I think he was right fans are sick of losing to Liverpool all the time, we just don't have the patience anymore.
Tony J Williams
78   Posted 06/01/2012 at 17:13:46

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Or maybe, just maybe Ray, the players around him are of a higher quality that his passes are easier to make, because they actually move for him to receive the ball. Any half decent player would thrive when put into a Champions League side.

Fellaini plays deeper because he is a defensive midfielder.
Ray Robinson
79   Posted 06/01/2012 at 17:22:37

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Very likely Tony. Still think Moyes didn't give him free expression due to his cautious mindset. Ever notice how often Moyes and Arteta "conferred" when there was a stoppage in play?
Wayne Smyth
80   Posted 06/01/2012 at 17:10:26

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Dave(30). You tell me I can't have it both ways, then try to tell me that players that are playing for us who have international caps(and are current internationals) dont count as internationals? You also (purposefully?) miss out players we do have like baines who's quality actually deserves more caps than he actually has.

Whether their best is behind some of them is debatable. That Moyes' "coaching" results in a collective inability to create an appropriate number of goalscoring chances and goals is unquestioned.

On wednesday we made bottom of the league bolton's powerhouse of a world-superstar David Ngog look like Thierry Henry in his prime.

Quite simply from front to back our squad lacks any self belief and any confidence. Is it any wonder when we play half our games without a recognised striker, the other half with defenders playing in midfield, central midfielders on the wings....and to top it off, in the spare time between games the manager is telling all who will listen about how he hates bringing knives to a gunfight. Fantastic way to motivate the players you have and make them believe that they can achieve isn't it?

I've personally got fuck-all time for Moyes if he complains about a lack of firepower having forced Yakubu out of the club for nothing and sold Beckford. We spent £11M on Yak, and its Moyes job to manage him, keep him supplied, happy and scoring. Thats what we pay him £70k / week to do. Professional football managers need to deal with the personalities that they sign and get the most out of them.

Managing Everton is not an easy job when fools like kenwright pull the financial rug from under your feet unexpectedly, but to have a manager who seems to want to cut his own nose to spite his face is just asking for disaster.
Noel Lynam
81   Posted 06/01/2012 at 17:58:28

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Dave @ 60,

So you disagree with the "fact" they are internationals? Or just find it hilarious? Read my post again, I'm talking about the squad. All those players are internationals, as are Drenthe and Donovan.

The title of this article is the pertinent thing here. Moyes has done well during his tenure and to an extent, been a victim of his (relative) success. But there is no denying things appear to be going stale on the playing side. Whether that's cause or effect of the financial constraints is another matter but he has not made the best use of his resources (who has, I know...)

His cautious - and I'm deliberately not saying negative - approach only adds to the "stale vibes" and is reflected in the players' approach. Conservative, pedestrian, lacking in desire to try anything creative.

Richard Dodd is probably closer to the truth than most of us want to believe. Moyes and Kenwright see safety and prolonging our premier league existence as the objective and an achievement, with anything above that a bonus. If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I have a degree of sympathy for Moyes and some of the criticism of him on here is so blinkered it beggars belief, but nobody can convince me there is not another manager out there willing to take that job, capable of invigorating the place and making better use of the squad than he is doing.
Colin Taylor
82   Posted 06/01/2012 at 18:32:17

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When Moyes said after the Blackburn game at the start of last season "We are not ready to win premier league games." he should of been sacked and take that Phil Neal impersonator Round with him. Remember him being Graham Taylors yes man
Andy Crooks
83   Posted 06/01/2012 at 19:58:30

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Dave Wilson,# 30. I agree with you entirely. I have used the "team of internationals " argument in the past but for me the Bolton game was a revelation.It is a piss poor international team that any of this lot could get in to.
More worrying is the fact that I don't believe they aren't trying. It is fucking terrifying to think that most of them are doing their best.My views on David Moyes remain unchanged and have been like a stuck record on this site. I am ,however coming to the conclusion that any fix on the field will be short term at best. Kenwright must go and the BU is the only option left to ordinary supporters.
Dave Wilson
84   Posted 06/01/2012 at 22:56:12

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Noel

If you went into an alehouse and spoke about Neville, Distin,Saha,Hibbert,Osssie and Mcfadden being current internationals you would be laughed out of it.

I`m staggered that people think we have a squad full off intetnational stars and should be twatting the likes of Bolton.

Do a little research mate, the Prem is awash with "internationals" and you might not realise it because they dont all play for En-gur-land but Bolton have more than we do . .

Bogdan (Hungary). Steinson(Iceland ). Knight and Cahill (England). Ricketts (Wales).
Petrov and Klasnic have around 120 caps between them .
Rio - Cocker , turned down SIierra Lione Because he thinks he can play for England and Ngog who is still a kid, has been capped by France at under 16,17,18,19 and 21, tis only a matter of time before "Le Donkey" gets his full cap . . .And If we are comparing caps lets be grateful Yaaskerlainen wasnt playing.

The difference being of course, that most of theirs really ARE current internationals with a chance of being capped again.

Lets ditch this silly "whether their best is behind them is debateble" argument, because it isnt debateable at all.

How can you ever fairly assess the job a manager is doing with his team if you flatly refuse to properly asses the players at his disposal Wayne ?
Dave Wilson
85   Posted 06/01/2012 at 23:26:19

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Wayne/Noel

Sorry guys, I`m getting rid of the booze left over from New years eve ( anything to make the missus happ) and I kinda got confused as to who I was replying to
Paul Holmes
86   Posted 07/01/2012 at 02:48:22

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Joe Bibb ? what a fantastic post! All fans need to read post number 72, send this post to everybody involved with Everton and the local media.

Everton can survive without Moyes and, if he ever sells, Kenwright. The club is bigger than these two stale overpaid people. If we advertised for a new manager, we would get hundreds of qualified applicants, FACT!
Robbie Shields
87   Posted 07/01/2012 at 04:45:36

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Dave, that explains a lot of your posts........... You're constantly pished! :) By your own admission you frequent ale houses a lot! That must be why you think everything Moyes does is right, you are due one hell of a hangover mate, and when you wake up in the morning with your beer goggles off you will see before you in all her pig ugly glory the slapper you thought was the most beautiful being on earth, totally irreplaceable and someone you couldn't believe no one else had taken off you the night before, and you'll think............oh fuck, why didn't anyone tell me.

Have a read of Joe Bibb's post #72, and re-read it a few times dispssionatly, it says it all, clear as day, from another Evertonian of 50 years watching the blues and feeling the club, a truly superb post Joe, please contribute more often.
Dave Wilson
88   Posted 07/01/2012 at 08:21:43

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Robbie

Much as I love my missus, it has to be admitted that, Like many of Moysie`s team she`s a little past her dazzling best.
But she still scrubs up quite well.

That was an extremely harsh description of her
Robbie Shields
89   Posted 07/01/2012 at 08:44:41

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LOL, great response Dave!!!!!!!
Wayne Smyth
90   Posted 07/01/2012 at 09:13:58

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Dave, its not Moyes decision that the Nigeria captain isn't good enough to play for us?

Not moyes fault that a £9M russian international isn't considered good enough even for our bench?

Not Moyes fault that the most lethal striker we've had since Lineker wasn't good enough to play for us and was let go for effectively nothing?

Perhaps we have a shit squad because Moyes has failed to keep hold of the few good players we have that make a difference?

Arteta wanted to leave, fair enough, but you I would argue that Pienaar would've been happy to stay at the club if he got what we're now more than happy to pay McUseless.

If saha and neville are past it and shit why are they still at the club? Either they have the quality to play for us or they don't, in which case save close to £100k / week and get rid for whatever we can.

I'd be less critical if, when Moyes has a more complete squad to pick from, it actually looks like the 11 players that go out on the field have played with each other before and understand the basics of passing the ball then moving, rather than standing like statues then hoofing it 40 yards to a lone striker.

I'm not the sort to form or change my opinion based on a few results. My views are formed over the long term. I look at our performances against sides with far inferior footballers, lower league sides, newly promoted clubs with vastly lower wage bills. Then I watch as our team either gets out-footballed or is unable to create chances.

I'm also annoyed when Moyes waves the white flag against "richer" teams which he has been doing these last few years.

I dont expect us to beat those teams, but we used to sometimes beat those teams because Moyes had the mentality that we could....and if those richer teams had an off-day then we could get a result.
Noel Lynam
91   Posted 07/01/2012 at 12:08:43

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Dave,

You say: "If you went into an alehouse and spoke about Neville, Distin,Saha,Hibbert,Osssie and Mcfadden being current internationals you would be laughed out of it."

Sober up and re-read my post. At no point do I mention 5 of those 6 as current internationals. If you are going to try twist words, at least read / reference them properly.

As for the " and you might not realise it because they dont all play for En-gur-land" remark, I am neither from nor give a fuck about England. It's ironic that you try to infer that I am ignorant about non-English players yet manage to display your own narrow mindedness.
James Flynn
92   Posted 07/01/2012 at 23:26:29

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Dave (64) - Saha's MLS-ready. Seriously. Wouldn't be surprised he comes this way.

For certain his EPL-ready days are over. But, like Keane last year with Galaxy, he'll do well here.

Needs to leave EFC though. Pronto.
Wayne Smyth
93   Posted 08/01/2012 at 09:37:25

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Dave(84) - I'll admit my knowledge of international football is very poor, so can you enlighten me as to how many internationals Tamworth have?

When we were camped in our own half for significant parts of yesterdays game I was going to get upset, but I'm not sure if I've seen one or two of their lads turn out for Portugal or Spain....they looked a bit familiar. But then one of them looks uncannily like my postman, so what do I know!

You'll be glad to hear I've lowered my expectations from now on and I'm happy that we shouldn't be expecting to twat the likes of Tamworth, at home.

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