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MIA: Ross Barkley

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As we all well know, Everton have struggled ? not only this season, but the last 3 or 4 seasons ? with creative players; we struggle to break teams down in the final third... So my question is: Where the hell is Ross Barkley?

I don't want to build the boy up into some sort of superstar but, from what I've seen, he can beat a man, sees a pass, and has got a decent shot. Now surely he can be no worse than Neville in the middle? Or the mis-firing Cahill in the hole? The worrying sign for me is that we have an injury crisis... yet, with the likes of Rodwell, Osman, & Jagielka all out, Barkley still can't get on the bench ? even last week, Baxter got a run before the boy.

Surely Moyes isn't still holding a grudge from the penalty he gave away early in the season? Or has he got a bad attitude? Something is not right with this situation, when the likes of Cahill and Rio Ferdinand are saying he is a very special player, I do wonder what's going on with Barkley. If he can't get a game now, he never will!!

Can anyone shed some light on this situation?

Sean McKenna, Ireland     Posted 05/02/2012 at 02:15:08

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Derek Thomas
569   Posted 05/02/2012 at 06:11:59

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We ( most) all want to see him in Now and some think that Moyes is' holding him back' for his own good maybe or some other getting too big for his boots - I'm the boss here Laddie reasons. Truth is we don't know.

Is he really being held back?? lets compare him with Colin Harvey.

Made his Debut in Sept 63...fast forward to 28th Mar 64 ( consults program for that day ) H. Vs Blackpool, one A. Ball in the 'pool team, did he play? how did he play, memory fails me.

Any who the program is printed a few days in advance, Harvey is don to play, his 1st game since Milan, 30 games in the Resvs 8 goals. Also down to play is Tony Kay.

Now this must have been when the scandal officially broke. Kay out, Harris moves up from left back Old Mick Meagan comes in to LB. Morrissey comes in for Temple ( maybe to inject a bit of graft and grit to the weakened left side. Temple moves over to RW in place of Scott and Alex Young who was not down to play replaces the inexperienced Harvey.

By Oct 64 Harvey has played 7 1st team games and 6 Reserve games, by Dec64 he is what paseses for a regular.

So long story shirt. Maybe Barkley's time ( and time scale ) is not too far off course.

Hopefully by March we should have the Magic 40pts and the pressure will be off and he can come in.

I bet he hasn't anything like the 30 Reserve games in quite a tough Central League that Harvey had to gain game time ( yes I know he was injured ) but that is another thread.
Phil Brown
573   Posted 05/02/2012 at 08:16:49

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If he's not being played behind the striker, in Tim's role which is why he is not playing, he should be out on loan along with Duffy and Vellios getting experience.
Nick Entwistle
586   Posted 05/02/2012 at 09:26:25

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Erm, he's been injured. Just come back. And there are others ahead of him.
Paul Gladwell
591   Posted 05/02/2012 at 09:34:08

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Nick how the bloody hell should Gueye be ahead of him as he has offered nothing to me and those first few games he was our best attacking threat.
We are holding him back for the benefit of the club who buys him just like with Rooney, we never played him enough and as soon as utd bought him he has never stopped playing, it was the same with Rodwell, he came on he scene at the same time as Wiltshire and he could not lace that lads boots now.
Tony J Williams
592   Posted 05/02/2012 at 09:36:34

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Not too sure who he would have replaced in that midfield yesterday.

It is surprising that he wasn't on the bench for the bottom side team but on it for the league leaders.

Good points by Derek.

We have only seen him a handful of times, I fear that we have escalated him to being so much better than where he is at now. Just wait until we turn against him because he hasn't scored in 5 when he does get a game
Lee Courtliff
596   Posted 05/02/2012 at 09:45:09

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Then we'll have the Toffeeweb favourite.........' he's gone backwards in his development'.
Tony J Williams
600   Posted 05/02/2012 at 09:56:45

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You missed out - "because of Moyes" Lee
Lee Gorre
601   Posted 05/02/2012 at 10:01:40

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I didn't see any point in having 2 left wingers on the bench yesterday - Drenthe and Gueye. So unless he was injured - and we never seem to hear anything from the manager about that - there is no logic in not having Barkley on the bench. As to where he could have come on - well a positive half time sub for Cahill instead of the pointless exercise of bringing Neville on, would have added to the creativity Pienaar was bringing.
Sam Hoare
602   Posted 05/02/2012 at 10:00:07

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Would like to see him in and about the first team. The fact that he isn't suggests that either his fitness or training aren't what they might be.

Keep in mind he is watched and assessed every day by all the staff at Everton whereas we have only guesswork and a few mins he played 6 months ago to go on.

If he really is as good as we think/hope his time will come soon. But there is the chance that he's actually not the genius some on here make him out to be.
Mike Allison
611   Posted 05/02/2012 at 10:11:00

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I still can't get over Neville coming on for Cahill yesterday. Unbelievable.

Barkley is still very young and has been injured, so I'm not too worried about him. I think some fans are getting carried away because we were so short of players at the start of the season we basically had to play him. I would of course like to see him involved more and more but in terms of immediate solutions to problems, I'd much rather see Drenthe being used to break the deadlock in a game than Phil Neville, and NEVER see Fellaini pushed forward into the 'Cahill' support role which is a waste of our biggest asset.
Phil Brown
615   Posted 05/02/2012 at 10:19:56

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I've watched him in the pre-season friendly at Oxford and the two youth cup games in London.

Can see why Moyes doesn't want to put him centre-mid as he tends to dwell on the ball and it gets taken off him.

However, he sees and delivers chance creating passes round the edge of the box and is also a good finisher.

He should be playing the last 30 mins of every game in the tim cahill role. Moyes will not put him there because of his unbending faith in tim even though he's just about the only one that can't see he should have been dropped a year or so ago.

Put Vellios and Barley on for the last 30 mins of every game to get some experience and win us some matches.
James Stewart
627   Posted 05/02/2012 at 10:55:33

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Fitness arguement is rubbish as he has been playing for the u18's which he wouldn't if injured. Since he gave away that penalty Moyes has taken the humph with him.
Danny Burke
640   Posted 05/02/2012 at 11:23:50

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He's been in the under 18s to get his fitness back. He had a massive injury before and is again just coming back from another lay off. Ease him in gently, he doesn't need throwing in when he's not ready and making things worse. He will be back in the 1st team squad soon and the bench and wil probably start more as the season comes to a close. Nothing to see here I'm afraid, no con conspiricy, no "humph", no saving him for Man U.
Roman Sidey
642   Posted 05/02/2012 at 11:20:46

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I've purposely not called his name at every turn because we really don't know if he is what he is cracked up to be, but he does show promise, and it is very frustrating that we don't at least get to see him every once in a while.
Nick Entwistle
645   Posted 05/02/2012 at 11:34:22

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Paul, I've been impressed with Gueye every time he's come on. Certainly couldn't argue Barkley has been more effective.

And the Rooney argument is a false one. 77 appearances in two seasons.
Paul Gladwell
661   Posted 05/02/2012 at 12:42:43

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Nick how many of those were starts?
But anyhow I think Gueye has offered nothing so its a difference of opinion on that one.
My arguement is Barkley was MOTM against QPR and Huddersfield and was playing well away to Blackburn until that clanger and we have barely seen him since.
I went to all those games as well as the Villareal and to me the lad looks like he will be more Rooney level than Rodwell level, but just see how many games he plays for us in his career, we won't see enough of him I bet.
Lee Courtliff
663   Posted 05/02/2012 at 12:50:12

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Tony,I apologise.Of course it would be the fault of Moyes. And Nick, you are too polite. The Rooney argument isn't just false.........it's complete bollocks!
Nick Entwistle
668   Posted 05/02/2012 at 13:07:11

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Rooney appearances (sub)

02/03 - 17 (20)
03/04 - 31 (9)
Ian Kearney
670   Posted 05/02/2012 at 13:15:00

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45 mins to go against the bottom club in the laeague, nil nil, cahill picks up a knock, if anyone thinks Neville is a better option in that situation than Barkley, they are a moron.

Any goodwill Moyes garnered against City disappeared with his appalling management yesterday.
Nick Entwistle
671   Posted 05/02/2012 at 13:16:28

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Yes Lee. Complete bollocks. One for each season and one higher than the other.
Ciarán McGlone
681   Posted 05/02/2012 at 14:24:29

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Or perhaps the answer is the most obvious one. Moyes is clueless when it comes to creativity.
Ray Roche
708   Posted 05/02/2012 at 16:57:47

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Paul Gladwell,
I think that Gueye is possibly as good a crosser of the ball as anyone at the club. And he has shown signs of developing a partnership with Baines that has been missing since Pienaar left.
(yes,I know he's just come back)
James Martin
709   Posted 05/02/2012 at 17:00:02

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'Moyes is clueless when it comes to creativity' - is this the man who assembled a team with a midfield of Arteta, Pienaar, Osman and Donovan. The same man who bought Baines as probably our most creaitve left back in a long time, and has played a lot of ball playing centrebacks Yobo, Lescott, Distin, Heitinga. Yes the football this season has been bad because we've lost the majority of our good players but stop trying to fool everyone that the football under Moyes has always been terrible dour negative defensive stuff. It hasn't, it's been that way for the last seaosn and a half but before that we had a team playing football that people thought could get us back into the top four

Moyes can't win, when we had the so called 'midget gems' everyone was on here asking for a bit of power in midfield and upfront. We now have that in Rodwell, Fellani, Anichebe Stracqualursi and lo and behold the football has become rubbish.

Barkley was rubbish in the Carling cup when he played off the striker and did nothing when he came on against man U apart from give the ball away. He'll have his time but of course it's all Moyes' fault for leaving this brilliant player out of the team because he's too negative to appreaciate an attacking player who'd win him loads of games. What a joke. the way people talk on here it's as though they actually believe Moyes doesn't want to win games and leaves his best player sout on purpose for that effect. Ridiculous.
Aidy Dews
713   Posted 05/02/2012 at 17:12:13

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If we're not going to involve him in games, then why don't we loan him to a half-decent Championship side and let him get games and experience there, especially if the likes of Rodwell, Osman and Coleman are gaining fitness and on the fringes of a return.

If Moyes is unwilling to play him, then I'm sure a stint on loan will help him to not only gain experience of playing in important games but also time to grow up by being out of Liverpool, possibly and away from mates, even things like that can bring you on in your career.
John Crawley
721   Posted 05/02/2012 at 17:46:38

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Aidy I completely agree with you. I don't understand why he isn't playing in the first team but if Moyes doesn't think he is ready then why hasn't he loaned the lad out. i think playing for some one like Blackpool would be ideal for him, he's just wasting away playing at U 18's level.
Peter Warren
723   Posted 05/02/2012 at 17:59:11

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Neville for Cahill against Wigan for a half. And people say Moyes is right not having Barkley involved...
Ciarán McGlone
725   Posted 05/02/2012 at 17:58:06

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James Martin.

To suggest that our football has only been dour, insipid shite for only a season and a half is revisionist rubbish.

The majority of Moyes tenure has been riddled without terrible football. Listing a few creative players who he's bought will not change that.
Peter Laing
733   Posted 05/02/2012 at 18:39:23

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Rooney may have made plenty of appearances from the bench under Moyes, he then went onto tear Euro 2004 to shreds and has been an ever present in the United team since under Ferguson. Barkley was the orchestrator of the recent U18 4-1 victory over Manchester United, the lad s old enough and good enough to be playing now, my belief is that Moyes remains cautious of showcasing his young talent given his experiences with the precocious Wayne Rooney and our continuing perilous financial state.
James Stewart
734   Posted 05/02/2012 at 18:49:13

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James Martin. Moyes has assembled nothing but a team set out to keep it tight and try and nick one. That has been his Plan A for a decade and nothing has changed. He is the master of negative cowardice shite zombie football. No one has persevered with the same old boring tact for so long. A spirited display against the best team in the league is not even enough to get him to go on the offensive. Those waiting for Moyes to change and adapt/improve will be waiting forever.
James Martin
759   Posted 05/02/2012 at 20:54:13

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'The majority of Moyes tenure has been riddled without terrible football.' - this if anything is revisionist rubbish, pure opinion borne out of discontent with the current standard of play.

I haven't just forgotten the last ten years. When moyes came he improved the football immediately from what it was under Walter Smith, yes we werent Barcelona but it was better than most of what we'd seen throughout the 90s. Picking up wins at places like St James', Villa Park, White Hart Lane, and Elland road were as rare as anything, any half decent team in the league looked down at us and we had no aspiration other than survival.

Moyes changed that, he built a solid base in the 04/05 season that to label 'negative' would just misunderstand the balance of powe rin the premier league at the time. With the players we had we never could have attacked our way into the top four. After this Moyes gradually changed the playing style of the squad to become the mroe leaborate passing game that we saw a few seasons back. There's been bad perfromances along the way but there's also been plenty of times when we've absolutely routed teams.

No one would have put up with 10 years of what we've seen this season and most of last. No one has done because it didn't happen, its not been as bad as this for ages and in fact it wasn't that long ago we had a team a lot of Everotnians were proud of who qualified consistently for Europe and had some great creative players who played good football.

If you honestly believe that Moyes has displayed 'negative cowardice shite zombie football' for the majority of the decade like it has been this season then you have not been watching the same Everton as me and the thousands of other Everton fans who were cheering Moyes and his players off at the end of every season.
Dean Adams
763   Posted 05/02/2012 at 21:38:14

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Ciarán McGlone

"The majority of Moyes tenure has been riddled without terrible football."

Read that, then read it again. Still trying not to laugh. I know you did not mean what you wrote, but the truth slipped through.
The dire football is not the long term way. We were called Arsenal light, not because we were crap but because we were actually pretty good.
Roman Sidey
769   Posted 05/02/2012 at 23:04:22

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"What a joke. the way people talk on here it's as though they actually believe Moyes doesn't want to win games and leaves his best player s out on purpose for that effect. Ridiculous" ? James Martin, #709.

Not ridiculous. It's what we decide the evidence we are shown suggests. Whatever your opinion, James, a lot of supporters have seen enough of Moyes to believe that he has given up, and he is not confident enough to go for a game against any of the opposition in the league. That, from any angle, is cowardice.
Ciarán McGlone
770   Posted 05/02/2012 at 23:27:12

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Arsenal light?

Ironic?
Stephen Kenny
808   Posted 06/02/2012 at 08:14:44

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For half an hour the lad ran the game against Villareal, aged 17. Despite the fact they were dire in the CL they are all infinitely better footballers than we see week in, week out.

You may say a game is for 90 mins etc but that says to me he's got ability. That ability won't develop playing for our u18's when he's already playing for his country at u21's.

The fact is he's been persona non grata since he made a mistake against Blackburn. He's being taught a lesson.

He's got the ability to go on and be our best player by a country mile. That won't ever be allowed to happen under Sergeant Moyes. He doesn't like people getting a bit too big for their boots. Completely ignoring the fact that the lad is already the best young player of his generation, commented by several coaches and pundits.

Ryan Giggs, Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Fabregas, Henry etc were all playing first team football at his age or younger. He doesn't need protecting, he needs games and a manager who will show a bit of faith in him and forgive the occassional mistake which all young player's make through naivety.
Martin Mason
811   Posted 06/02/2012 at 08:48:02

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We are never going to see how good he could be unless he is played. I believe he will be a great player and we are diminished by not playing him. Of all Moyes' failings not plaing Barkley is the worst, he made one mistake FFS.
Ciarán McGlone
815   Posted 06/02/2012 at 08:59:10

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James Martin,

Again, revisionism.

We only stopped hoofing the ball about three years ago... at that time we did have a spell of decent football ? conincidently around the time we didn't play any strikers.

That didn't last long.

We also had a short spell of decent football last year, but again, we soon reverted to type ? and finished the last few games of the season playing horrible football.

Before those two spells, there was no consistent (however short-lived) attempt to actually play football.

So, I'll stand by my position. In the ten years Moyes has been here, MOST of the football has been dire. You appear to be confusing the effectiveness of Moyes style with good passing football. But now, even that efffectiveness appears to have evaporated.

However, please feel free to prove me wrong. (nb: Stating that some deluded fools called us 'Arsenal light', in no way constitutes proof of anything other than a very short break from the norm.)
Ryan Rosenberg
817   Posted 06/02/2012 at 09:33:27

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Gueye is nothing special. Re Barkley, I was disgusted with Moyes freezing him out before he got injured. He NEEDS to start getting some games under his belt now that he is back, look Wengers faith in Chamberlain and how it's paying off! Barkley is definitely good enough to play with Fellaini in the middle, but I think he would benefit playing behind Jelavic - he offers much more than Cahill. Get him in asap, he is strong, fast, confident and has a great shot on him - exactly what we need!
Mark Stone
828   Posted 06/02/2012 at 11:20:35

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Are you taking the mickey about Oxlade-Chamberlain? The one who has made only 5 appearances all season, and got his first start in the premiership just 2 weeks ago? The same one about whom all the gooners have been been bemoaning Wenger for NOT playing??? The one who made 30-odd appearances for Southampton last season whilst Barkley was nursing a broken leg?
Mark Stone
830   Posted 06/02/2012 at 11:23:45

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"Ryan Giggs, Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Fabregas, Henry etc were all playing first team football at his age or younger"
Great point Stephen, if them six shit players can get away with it, anyone can! Massive fail.
Mark Stone
832   Posted 06/02/2012 at 11:25:21

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"We are never going to see how good he could be unless he is played"

Dont think Moyes should really play Barkley just so toffeeweb readers and contributors can make a judgment whether or not he is good, and to what extent.
Sam Hoare
834   Posted 06/02/2012 at 11:33:09

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The guy is 18 years old and has just come back from 3months out with almost 9 months out before that!!

This sort of unrealistic expectation is what ends up making players choke and not make the grade. No-one on here has any idea how good he actually is; just because he's had a few good moments here and then means nothing in the long run as demonstrated by hundreds and thousand of failed 'future stars' before him.

Bring him in gradually when he is fit and when he is training well.
Kevin Hudson
838   Posted 06/02/2012 at 11:38:54

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Honestly, you'd think your 'new flavour of the month,' was the Second Coming the way most of you are banging on.

When he does come in to the side you'll all heap shit-loads of impatient pressure on him, hail him as the next Gazza if he pulls out a few tricks, continue speculating about £30 million pound bids - before slagging Kenwright off, then capriciously slate Moyes's careful development of him when he makes predictably naive mistakes.

The glaringly obvious has been put to you by Sam Hoare in simple terms you should all understand.
Ciarán McGlone
845   Posted 06/02/2012 at 12:18:58

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We know you like your facts, Kevin ? so, it's rather interesting that you advocate Sam Hoare's post as the cure for all us simpletons.

Just one more thing though (in true Columbo style...) there's absolutely no evidence that he's been injured for 3 months. He was dropped, got a minor injury playing for the stiffs and hasn't been allowed back in since..

But your Mayan style predictions are, as always, right. We should of course persist with the likes of Neville and Cahill in midfield ? just in case young Ross stubs a toe, or someone criticises him. (Under this kind of regressive thinking no-one would ever get on the pitch.)
Stephen Kenny
847   Posted 06/02/2012 at 12:13:52

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Kevin,

Not the second coming just a quality player who can do things that this side is sorely missing. You obviously think you know something us mere mortal's don't, ignoring that we all have an idea how good he is because we've all seen him play. Is that simple enough for you? The same as we all knew Seamus would do a job for us six months before he got in the side.

Thanks to Sam for pointing out the glaringly obvious re; Injuries but he's fit now and has been for over a month.

He was also fit for quite some time after he broke his leg and before his 6 week (3 months???) absence and didn't get a look in.

And it's not just unrealistic expection that effects whether a player makes the grade, Mis-management shattering thier confidence has a big part to play too.

Your not the all seeing eye Kevin, get off your high horse.
Kevin Hudson
861   Posted 06/02/2012 at 13:33:47

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Stephen Kenny,

Don't accuse me of being the Oracle when in post 808, you come out with such 'definitive,' remarks as:

"He's got the ability to go on and be our best player by a country mile. That won't ever be allowed to happen under Sergeant Moyes." (What..?!)

"He's being taught a lesson." (Really..?!)

"He doesn't need protecting." (The serious injuries, callow youth factor & the hype beg to differ).

"He (Moyes) doesn't like people getting a bit too big for their boots." (Is that right..?!)

I'll take my 'high horse,' over your sweeping Ale House BS any day.
Peter Laing
863   Posted 06/02/2012 at 13:55:50

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Using your rationale then Kevin when would you suggest that Ross Barkley is given another opportunity to prove himself. We all know that it is only David Moyes who can select who he see's fit to wear the royal blue, without having David Moyes ear and seen as this is a forum that allows discussion can you please enlighten us with your esteemed perspective ?
Kevin Hudson
881   Posted 06/02/2012 at 14:54:28

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For an "esteemed perspective," check out Sam Hoare's post 834, Peter.

...Rather than peddling the conspiracy theory as you did back in post: 733.
Mike Manchester
894   Posted 06/02/2012 at 15:36:17

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Just want to give a shout out to Kevin Hudson and Sam Hoare. Always read TW threads and almost always agree with their points. I'm sure you both know you are fighting a losing battle on this site. But thanks, because it stops me having to write it. Keep up the Good work boys
Peter Laing
896   Posted 06/02/2012 at 15:45:33

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Kevin I have an issue with Sam Hoare's post when he comes out with the following quote : "No-one on here has any idea how good he actually is; just because he's had a few good moments here and then means nothing in the long run as demonstrated by hundreds and thousand of failed 'future stars' before him". Ok, well I prefare to listen to comments by people such as Alan Stubbs who know Barkley well enough and are able to conclude that he is the best academy product since Wayne Rooney. Given the crap we have had to watch in recent months and based upon another masterstroke by Moyes on saturday with the deployment of Neville in midfield is it really so unrealistic for the fans to have the opportunity to hope that Barkley is granted a little more match-time ?
Kevin Hudson
904   Posted 06/02/2012 at 16:15:06

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..No it's not Peter, and that's a reasonable POV.

But contrast Sam's quote with the infantile crap coming from Stephen.

(Hey Mike - thanks for the shout..)
Jamie Barlow
908   Posted 06/02/2012 at 16:44:17

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I'll second Mike Manchesters post @894.

I also used to like reading Dave Wilsons posts until the "Anichebe rescues sorry display" thread.
Paul Holmes
926   Posted 06/02/2012 at 18:07:00

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Fabio Capello said on Sky that Ross Barkley is another Wayne Rooney at Everton, but he needs to play every game to reach his potential. What does Moyes do??? the lad has never been seen since! This is the difference between a world class manager (look at his CV) and a pub-style negative manager from Scotland who has never won anything!
Stephen Kenny
935   Posted 06/02/2012 at 18:52:46

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Kevin,

Go and have a look at all the players who are regarded as the worlds best and tell me which ones weren't used regularly at the same age? The answer is none. Rooney had come off a serious injury when he signed for United. As soon as he was fit he played every week. Is he fucked as a result?

Has Moyes got history for trying to bring people down a peg. Fucking right he has. Coleman, Beckford, Rooney, Duffy and loads of other public comments and more importantly, actions, say so.

Football is a confidence game and to reach your full potential you need a manager who believes in you. Has Ross got that? Will he be forgiven for an error or get an arm round his shoulder if he makes a mistake? No, he'll get fucked off to play in the U18's, a peer group he's already head and shoulders above.

You take offence to being likened to the oracle when just above you see fit to tell us all how Ross will play and how we will all behave? And you call my comments ale-house. Fucking laughable.

Feel free to point out the bullshit if you want.

It's not infantile or ale house just because people don't agree with you.
Mark Stone
938   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:25:33

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"Go and have a look at all the players who are regarded as the worlds best and tell me which ones weren't used regularly at the same age?"

Can't believe you are still chirping on about this? Can you not see the ignorance of this post?
Peter Laing
941   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:28:19

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Kevin, you still have not answered how you would go about blooding Barkley? In my opinion Stephen Kenny offers a reasoned argument as to why Ross has been frozen out of the first team and I would agree with his comments regarding Rooney, Gerrard et al who as they were good enough to be fast-tracked into the first team and never looked back in their respective careers.

It must be demoralising watching a 35-year-old defender being selected ahead of you each week whose contribution in midfield borders upon culpability to the brand of anti-football that we are subjected to.

Funny how the only time Moyes is able to pull off a win against superior opposition is when we have our backs to the wall and the team virtually picks itself, we struggle against shite such as Wigan because we have no offensive plan of any credibility.
Mark Stone
942   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:35:34

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And this:

"Has Moyes got history for trying to bring people down a peg. Fucking right he has. Coleman, Beckford, Rooney, Duffy and loads of other public comments and more importantly, actions, say so"

What a load of bollocks. Care to expand on exactly what Moyes did to each of these players that was so out of order? Explain exactly what he did to bring them down a peg or two, and why. Big difference between not playing a player when you don't think they are ready, and trying to 'knock someone down a peg or two'.
Kiern Moran
943   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:42:40

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Speaking of which when is Coleman back from injury? We need to try him at right back before we lose Donavan back to the States.
Mark Stone
948   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:55:23

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"Gerrard et al who as they were good enough to be fast-tracked into the first team and never looked back in their respective careers"

Bollocks. Steven Gerrard was nearly six months older than Barkley is now when he made his debut. Plus he hadn't had a year off with an horrific injury.
Stephen Kenny
949   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:49:09

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Mark, if my arguments got flaws point them out.

Duffy after coming in and playing well had his ability to handle the pressure of the FA cup 4th round game questioned publicly. Does that say to Duffy that Moyes believes in him?

Did Beckford get slated publicly for his workrate after a game where he scored? I can't remember the game but it happened. In fact I'd say he got fucked about fairly regularly in public.

Coleman after coming on as sub and getting MOTM in 13 minutes against Spurs immediately had his ability to defend questioned and never got a look in for months after.

I could go on but everything Moyes is doing is always right in yours and Kevins eyes. And before you say I know you may have pointed out a few things on Moyes the constantly curious thread.
Mark Stone
951   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:12:16

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"Go and have a look at all the players who are regarded as the worlds best and tell me which ones weren't used regularly at the same age?"
"Ryan Giggs, Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Fabregas, Henry etc were all playing first team football at his age or younger"

Do the flaws in those two unbelievably ignorant comments require 'pointing out'? Seriously?
Mark Stone
955   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:14:05

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What a load of bollocks.

""Duffy has played really well in the games, he has been steady and looked mature in the games he has played" (Moyes 23/01/2012)

"Shane has done really well and he has got something. He will certainly have a good career in the game and we hope it is at Everton." (Moyes 27/01/2012)

That'll bring him a down a peg or two hey, Stephen?
Kevin Hudson
958   Posted 06/02/2012 at 19:40:51

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Ciaran McGlone,

You're absolutely correct. Forgive me if you think it's unreasonable to favour factual evidence over, say... half-baked speculation, a glowering predisposition to negative interpretation, a cynicism when viewing (from a factually-inconvenient distance) everything about the club's affairs, in a pejorative & perpetually angry light.

For the record, I prefer my detective's to be more Frank Drebin than Columbo..

Stephen Kenny,

Alex Ferguson has got history of bringing people down a peg: Lee Sharpe, David Beckham etc.. Guess what..? He's the boss!!

But there is NO evidence that puports that Barkley's "being taught a lesson," as you insist. He's a teenager getting an education, and has had injuries to deal with. Finch Farm is nurturing him. Properly..

(Nb: By highly-trained professionals who know what they're doing, and won't bow to fickle Internet pressure to rush him through).

Intuiting that he's among the world's very best, and stating that: "the lad is already the best young player of his generation," on the back of just FIVE senior appearances, is exactly the sort of reckless, over-bearing pressure that suggests, from you, a Messianic presence.

For all I know, this ridiculous hype may be justified, and could in fact sit well with his own sensibilities; indeed inspire him. Alternatively, it could weigh him down, which is exactly just one of the many reasons that the club is careful about how they develop him.

No one is disputing his potential. Simply the wholly subjective and individualised perception pertaining to the pacing of the process.

Without ANY specific knowledge of the inner workings, or narrative, of the club's set-up.

Stating the following as you did:

"He's got the ability to be one of our best players. This won't ever be allowed to happen under Sergeant Moyes," - IS Alehouse waffle..!!

(Your round).
Mark Stone
959   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:29:44

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"I could go on but everything Moyes is doing is always right in yours and Kevins eyes. And before you say I know you may have pointed out a few things on Moyes the constantly curious thread."

You could fabricate more bollocks? Go for it. Of course I don't think everything Moyes does is right. This isn't about that, its about Ross Barkley. And just because fucking Lionel Messi and Wayne Rooney were worldbeaters when they were 17/18 ... not worth it, you just can't make that type of shit up.
Stephen Kenny
960   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:48:31

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Mark

I don't know if you noticed but Duffy's not playing despite not putting a foot wrong and being a contender for MOTM in a couple.

Point out the ignorance of my comment regarding Messi, Rooney etc?
Ciarán McGlone
961   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:51:45

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It's not unreasonable to consider factual evidence, Kevin. But you haven't done that. Even worse, you know you haven't done that.

And yet you shamelessly claim to be the voice of reason.

Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
John Crawley
962   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:42:31

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Mark 951 here is what Moyes said about Duffy before the Fulham game:

?The decision for me is that I will have Tony Hibbert fit and available, so do I put him in because of his experience, albeit not being a centre half? So we have got that in our mind as well because the games now are really important games.
?We have got to win in the cup to get through and we have games coming up that are against really top teams. We have to decide if Shane is the right one for the job.?

Stephen Kenny
963   Posted 06/02/2012 at 20:54:54

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Kevin,



But there is NO evidence that puports that Barkley's "being taught a lesson," as you insist. He's a teenager getting an education, and has had injuries to deal with. Finch Farm is nurturing him. Properly.

He looked one of our best players in his first few games, made a mistake, got dropped and hasn't been seen since.

Your faith in Moyes tells you that he's being nurtured. Mine isn't there and neither is the evidence. That's just you opinion.

Mark,

Player's of obvious talent who were playing regular football at the same age as Ross. I didn't suggest Ross is the same level as those, although he certainly won't ever be playing U18's, just that this myth that young players need to be wrapped in cotton wool is a load of bollocks. You keep calling that ignorant but haven't said why?

Have you realized your the one talking BOLLOCKS perhaps?
Alex Mullan
964   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:00:52

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It pisses me off to the core that Arsenal are using Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain at the grand old age of 18 and we are sitting twating about with Barkley in the reserves or bench where he is never given ANY time.

Everton are under pressure and will use him when we get 40 points some say. Wasnt he man of the match on his debut when we had 0 points? What about the massive pressure Arsenal are under. Chamberlain is arguably their best or 2nd best player these days!

Leaving Barkley sitting doing fuck all is like having a porche for the day and fucking off to drive a 7th hand Lada.

Your not young in football for long these days. Theres something special about an exciting kid in a squad, something fresh, but we are seeing it dwindle in front of our eyes.
Mick Gallagher
966   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:10:13

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Agree Alex plus when a young kid plays always seem to lift the crowd and fuck do we need a lift.
Guy Wilkinson
968   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:05:39

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Mark Stone
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Everton-s-David-Moyes-has-laid-into-Jermaine-Beckford-for-lethargic-performance-article721858.html
Eddy Bernard
973   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:24:05

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Great shout Sam@834

Barclays got plenty of time to show if he's going to be great or average. In my own humble opinion he doesnt look as good as Rooney did at the same stage.
Mark Stone
977   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:48:38

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John Crawley, nothing wrong with that at all, read it in context.

?So far Shane has done really well in the games and it is terrific for the boy. He has got something and he has a chance. He will certainly make a really good career in the game and we hope it is at Everton.

?The level is going to step up shortly and the more you play, the more people expect from you. In your first couple of games as a youngster people do not expect too much.

?When you stay in the team then the supporters? and the manager?s eye gets drawn to you. We want him to keep doing things simple and not over-complicate things, and if he keeps playing as well as he has done in the last two games then we will all be happy.

?The decision for me is that I will have Tony Hibbert fit and available, so do I put him in because of his experience, albeit not being a centre half? So we have got that in our mind as well because the games now are really important games.

?We have got to win in the cup to get through and we have games coming up that are against really top teams. We have to decide if Shane is the right one for the job.? Is that what you call bringing the lad down a peg or two? Hardly, he is nothing but full of praise and very complimentary about Duffy's performances.
Alex Mullan
978   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:55:00

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Eddy Bernard,

First of all, he has not been given anywhere near the game time Rooney did 'at this stage' so you can't compare them there. Plus they don't even play the same position.

Secondly, not looking as good as Rooney at this stage is an accomplishment that nearly every footballer in the world has also achieved. The benchmark for a great, talented prospect can't always be Wayne Rooney for goodness sake. Your talking about a one in a generation player (like it or not).
Mark Stone
980   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:53:27

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Nothing wrong with that either, Guy. Here is what he said:?

I wanted him to run more in the second half and it wasn?t happening. He scored a great goal, probably the vital one in winning the game, but I thought he could work harder and I told him if you play at Everton that?s what you do. I didn?t think we had worked hard enough, and good defending begins with your front players, not with the midfield men. He played really well for 45 minutes, his movement for the first goal was great, but we have standards at our club and he has to learn what they are'

God forbid a manager praises his employees ability, but questions their effort! Comments by Moyes are spot on. Good management.
Stephen Kenny
981   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:57:38

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Is being dropped after doing fuck all wrong bringing somebody down a peg? Is playing a player just back from injury who is 5ft 7in and a right back for the important games saying I don't trust you?

You call that full of praise???
Peter Laing
982   Posted 06/02/2012 at 21:58:52

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Kevin Hudson likes to argue the toss and offer pedantic comment regarding other people's opinions but he continually evades giving an answer.
Eddy Bernard
986   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:07:01

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Alex @978 Calm down, i did say in my humble opinion.

I understand the comparison is not like for like but i make it as someone who hopes Barclay turns out to be half as good as Rooney and stays at Everton for much longer.
Mike Manchester
987   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:08:10

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Is it possible that Moyes was protecting Duffy?

If we got beat 6-0 by city, (which was infinitely possible)
Where would the young lad's confidence be then?

Mark Stone
988   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:01:32

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'Player's of obvious talent who were playing regular football at the same age as Ross. I didn't suggest Ross is the same level as those, although he certainly won't ever be playing U18's, just that this myth that young players need to be wrapped in cotton wool is a load of bollocks. You keep calling that ignorant but haven't said why?

Have you realized your the one talking BOLLOCKS perhaps?'

Those are, as you say, the best players in the world. They are the exception, not the rule. Just because Lionel Messi was good enough doesn't mean Barkley should be playing regularly now. If you look at the current England team or the premier league players only a tiny minority were playing 1st team football in the premier league at 18 yrs and 2 months. Someone mentioned Gerrard before ... He made his debut at 18 yrs 6 months, so Barkley made his debut about year younger than Gerrard, and at Barkleys age Gerrard had not even played a 1st team game! Then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good old whinge, hey?
Dave Wilson
989   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:05:48

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Stephen Kenny

Done fuck all wrong ? ? ? are you sure

I`m all for Ross getting a game but on more than one occasion he lost possesion as the hole team advanced.

Man U only had two chances in the second half, both when Ross was caught in possesion.

Barkley has a talent, but if he was left in the team and began to be punished for these errors, it would have done him more harm than good.

Moyes is giving him the chance to learn his trade. Why dont you do the same ?
Peter Laing
990   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:10:31

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Keep playing Neville or Heitinga in midfield whilst Ross Barkley continues to be 'nurtured' at Finch Farm. At 6ft 2", two great feet and the ability to pass, run and shoot, but no it goes against Moyes mantra and indoctrination of track back and defend at all cost.
Kevin Hudson
991   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:03:15

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Forgive my subtlety, Peter, I assumed the answer you continue to seek is implicit in my text..

If not - re-read it and take a wild stab-in-the-dark, as to..

Whether I want to see him immediately chucked into the side, or prefer to see him eased-in, then gradually given more game time as form, development & experience dictates.

(Ps: I'll quit being 'pedantic,' if you retract the bizarre conspiracy theory you laid-out in post: 733).
Mark Stone
993   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:13:40

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'Is being dropped after doing fuck all wrong bringing somebody down a peg? Is playing a player just back from injury who is 5ft 7in and a right back for the important games saying I don't trust you?'

1) It's not as simple as 'being dropped' though, is it? Duffy is well aware that he is still considered a prospect and his manager has come out and said how terrific he played. He will have always known that as soon as senior players returned he could have been back on the bench. Contrary to what you suggest, those games and performances would have been great for his confidence.

2) Tony Hibbert is an veteran of nearly 250 senior appearances. I can guarantee you, as a consultant physiologist for two Premier League football clubs, that he is well respected by players. He has played at centre half and done well before. He came in against City and played fantastic. Guarantee you that Duffy will have no qualms at all about being dropped for a '5'-7'' right back'

3) He's 5'-9''

4) the two comments (amongst others) are what I call 'full of praise'.
Peter Laing
994   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:27:39

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The conspiracy theory is based upon the fact that Barkley disappeared from the team / squad in the run up to the contract extension that he signed in December. It may be rumour, conjecture or conspiracy, however was Barkley not linked with Manchester United and Chelsea, and after all we have a track record of selling 50 million pound rated players on the drip as you very well no. When has he had the chance to be eased in Kevin - he wasn't even in the squad against Wigan.
Ray Roche
996   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:26:55

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Anyone remember a young lad called Neil Moore? As I remember,he made his debut away at Old Trafford in about 1994-95 alongside Watson. He was outstanding. I remember thinking what a great future he had in front of him. We lost 1-0 due to a deflected goal over Gerrard's or Southall's head. Moore vanished without trace after 5 or 6 matches.

The point of this is this: No matter how good Barkley looks at this stage of his career it is ridiculous to start talking of him as future great. I would love to see more of the lad to see if he's going to be all he's hyped up to be but I think Moyes might be better placed than we are to judge him. There are countless occasions when a young player has failed to live up to his promise. Cadamarteri, Branch, Jigsaw.....
Kevin Hudson
997   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:31:58

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Mark Stone,

Spot on. In fact Duffy himself intimated to Everton TV after the Spurs game, that he expected to step-aside when senior players return.

We all knew full well that the reason he was recalled from his loan, was purely to provide emergency cover.

Stephen, (Again).

You claim there is "no evidence," to suggest that Barkley is being nurtured.

Then what mysterious, ulterior purpose does his daily presence at Finch Farm suggest, then..?
Mark Stone
999   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:39:51

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The 18-year-old made his comeback for the Academy side last weekend, and Moyes says he will ease him back in at the right pace.

He said: ?Ross played a game for the youth team last week but then the reserve game in midweek was called off.

?Hopefully there will be no reaction to the bit of fluid on the knee he had and we will bring him back as and when he is ready.?

David Moyes, nine days ago.
Mark Stone
001   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:45:20

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I confess I don't remember Moore, Ray, but you are of course absolutely spot on. Not just at Everton but of course the leagues (and non leagues) are littered with players who 'could have been great'. I don't want to be the one to mention Billy Kenny Jnr on this thread but ...

Mind you, Messi did it so surely anyone can?
Kevin Hudson
002   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:45:46

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Peter (994)

There you go...Mark Stone has provided the factual reason why Barkley didn't make the Wigan squad.

Also, re: the press rumour mill:

Two weeks ago they were linking a 41 year-old Scottish defender with a move to Everton.
Jimmy Sørheim
005   Posted 06/02/2012 at 22:54:04

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I have a grasp of what Moyes thinking is with regards to Barkley.

Given his past experience with Rooney, I feel that Moyes is keeping Barkley in the shadows of the media, and ensureing that he will keep him next season..

Moyes is careful now and I can understand him not wanting to lose Barkley come july.

He is thinking long term, and he is also making sure he stays injury free this season, perhaps so that he will have a good basis for plying him next season.

I think Moyes is right in doing this for now, but that has to change at some point.

I would prefer to see Barkley play instead of Neville in midfield, only because I rate Neville as being well past his prime.

However, I do have an issue with Moyes not using the best "form" players, such as Drenthe and Vellios!

There is no defense of being pleased with a draw against bottom team Wigan, and by not playing Drenthe and Vellios I Moyes is preventing the two of them to develop both individually and together for the best of the team.

I remember we beat Wigan at home, but only after Drenthe and Vellios came on did we manage to play well enough to create chances and score.

Why put a stop to that? We have to find a foundation of players who can become a winning team, and in my view Moyes is effectively preventing the team to win.

So even though I agree with his thinking on Barkley, I can find no good reason for Moyes preventing the few positive players we have from playing together.

Also Moyes is refusing to stick with the same 11 that wins matches. He changed it after winning home against Wigan, and he changed it again after beating Man City.

Am I the only one of all the Everton fans who have noticed this or what????
Michael Kenrick
033   Posted 07/02/2012 at 07:50:24

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Not bad, Ray (#996) ? it was 1993-94... 22 January: Man Utd (A). Southall in goal. But Watson was not beside him that day.

Moore made a couple of sub appearances the season before, but that was his senior full debut, and he only played three more senior games for Everton before disappearing. He left for Norwich in 1997.

And from the same era... one Paul Holmes.
Kevin Hudson
069   Posted 07/02/2012 at 11:07:55

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Ciaran, (961)

Nice try, but the armchair psychoanalysis won't wash.

Simply because I haven't joined the chorus of those consumed with a desire to see Ross rushed-through, doesn't stack-up with the aspersion that I haven't considered the facts either.

Particularly when I reference them throughout the thread.
Stephen Kenny
071   Posted 07/02/2012 at 11:30:10

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Dave,

That comment was made about Duffy. I suggest you read my posts again.
Ciarán McGlone
073   Posted 07/02/2012 at 11:32:06

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You haven't referenced any facts Kevin.

Your defence of 'all things Moyes' is simply predicated on a unproveable OPINION that Moyes knows best.

For example, take the above: you ASSUME (ie, form an opinion) that putting Ross in at this stage is 'rushing him through' ? that's not a fact in the slightest. And again, I'll repeat ? you know it's not a fact. So get off that horse and debate your opinions with a little more sense. You never know... you may even have a sensible point that doesn't defer to the genuis of Moyes.
Andrew Laird
076   Posted 07/02/2012 at 11:23:47

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Here are the facts:

Barkley MOM vs QPR
Barkley above average vs Sheffield United subbed on 77 minutes
Barkley gives away penalty vs Blackburn and substituted immediately on 53 minutes.....weeks roll on...........
Apparantly we will see him more when he has signed a contract in December according to a few Moyes lovers on toffeeweb....months roll on...........
injured for 3 weeks?
signs contract in December..................Turns out for u18's..

It is now February ......That is 90 + 77 + 53 minutes of first team football for the season, is it enough to develop as a young player. No.
Stephen Kenny
077   Posted 07/02/2012 at 11:33:45

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Mark

Ferdinand age 17
Wilshere age 16
Terry age 18#
Walker age 18(Championship)
Cole age 18
Johnson age 17
Gerrard age 18
Lampard age 18
Defoe age 18
Rooney age 16
Parker age 17

I found them on Wiki. Normally I wouldn't be arsed to go and look something like that up but you seem so sure I'm bang in the wrong that I decided to go and have a look myself.

Clearly a lot of good players have made thier debuts at a young age.

Then you come out with this;

"He made his debut at 18 yrs 6 months, so Barkley made his debut about year younger than Gerrard, and at Barkleys age Gerrard had not even played a 1st team game! Then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good old whinge, hey?"

Perhaps Ross is more of a prospect than Gerrard was at a similar age? Yet you've got a cob on when I compare him to players of that ilk?

There's no pressure from me on him. This is an internet forum. I doubt when Ross goes on line he's searching for footballing chit chat. I know what I was searching for at 18.

There's no pressure from me in the ground either. Like most I cheered him every touch and when things didn't come off for him I was shouting "Hard lines Ross, Keep your head up Ross" etc, etc.

I don't expect him to carry the side on his own, nor does he need to. We've got plenty of good players who he will complement. I KNOW that to develop a player they need to be challenged and at time pulled out of the firing line. Perhaps that's what Moyes has done with Duffy. I personally don't believe that but an argument could be made. That's not what he's doing with Ross.

One last thing. Ross was back playing 3 weeks ago.

"HALEY?S COMET OUTSHINES EVERTON?S YOUNGSTERS

MATCH REPORT

EVERTON U18?S VS BLACKBURN ROVERS U18?S

Everton lost the lead twice in this game as it was played in very windy conditions at Finch Farm. With the inclusion of Ross Barkley in midfield alongside John Lundstram captaining the team Everton found Rovers hero Curtis Haley a handful as he capitalised on some poor Everton defending to punish Everton after Hallam Hope and Anton Forrester got a brace each as the young Toffee lost the game 5-4. 21-01-2012.

Talking yet more bollocks Mark?
Stephen Kenny
078   Posted 07/02/2012 at 12:19:40

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Kevin,

"Then what mysterious, ulterior purpose does his daily presence at Finch Farm suggest, then..?"

Really??? (Again)

Your faith in Moyes tells you he's being nurtured. You don't know that he is. My argument is that he isn't. SEE MY POSTS FOR REASONS. His presence at FF daily means fuck all as to whether he's being handled properly, as you know.

Daniel A Johnson
080   Posted 07/02/2012 at 12:11:59

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Moyes use of Neville at WIgan sent a very clear message to the squad.

Moyes has his favorites.

Doesn't matter what you do or what you can offer, if it comes down to it he will always choose one of his galacticos e.g.

Osman
Hibbert
Jags
Neville
Cahill

The likes of Gueye, Drenthe, Barkley and Vellios, must be punching the walls in frustration.

As Chris Waddle once said "Heroes are not born on the training pitch".
Kevin Hudson
082   Posted 07/02/2012 at 12:35:59

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The man's so obviously right..

Finch Farm is NOT a place where Barkley is being nurtured!!

(Copyright: Stephen Kenny).

The highly-trained industry experts & world-class training facilities mean "fuck all,"

Stephen's guess-work on the other hand ought to be treated with more credibility instead.
Stephen Kenny
085   Posted 07/02/2012 at 12:53:04

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YAWN!!!!!!

It's not guesswork Kev. Every single time a 35yr old has been runs out before him it's confirmed.

Subtly moving the focus from Moyes handling to the staff and facilities at FF. Typical Hudson. It's a nice move though. I might give it a go next time I get found out talking shite.
Kevin Hudson
104   Posted 07/02/2012 at 13:58:03

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Whereas in your case..

Subtly moving the focus towards Barkley being a significantly better player than Neville.

(Well..duh).

BUT.. evasively moving the focus away from the fact that Barkley didn't make Saturday's squad on medical grounds.

(Moyes's fault, naturally).

Previously you blatantly moved the focus to an incongruous suggestion that Moyes is deliberately hijacking Barkley's career.

(My personal favourite).

Later you perniciously moved the focus towards your own PARANOID suspicion that the folks at Finch Farm don't know what they're doing.

(Despite several players having gone out of their way to praise the staff & facilities there).

...Whist trying continuously & unsuccessfully to move the focus away from the reality...that you've written a volume of entertaining gibberish throughout the entire thread.

(None of which cut the mustard).
Brian Waring
109   Posted 07/02/2012 at 14:49:04

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Stephen, your wasting your breath mate.
Moyes could sell Barkley for a tenner to another club, and you would have Kevin telling us it was the right thing to do, because Moyes knows what he's doing.
Kevin Hudson
111   Posted 07/02/2012 at 14:23:44

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Ciaran, (073).

You appear to be hung-up on peddling the mis-leading "fact," that I haven't based my deductions on...facts.

To that end, here is a thumb-nail sketch of the demonstrably factual number of facts referenced by me on this thread:

* Barkley is being disproportionally lauded on ToffeeWeb. By many.

* There is widespread speculation that a big-money bid is imminent.

* Barkley has played for the club FIVE times.

* Moyes is carefully developing him. (As opposed to being obviously reckless).

* There are wacky conspiracy theories doing the rounds.

* Barkley has suffered injuries.

* Alex Ferguson is also appropriately switched-on when it comes to youth development.

* As per Premier League standard, Finch Farm has highly-trained staff & world-class facilites.

* Nobody disputes the idea that Barkley has potential.

* I want to see him eased-in to the side.

* Duffy came back from his loan spell to provide emergency cover.

* Barkley didn't make the Wigan squad due to the medical grounds. (Ie: Not being rushed back).

* Two weeks ago, the media were lining-up a 41 year old defender with a move to Everton.

* It is a fact that I have considered all of these facts, and it is factual that they can all be accessed on this thread.
Kevin Hudson
112   Posted 07/02/2012 at 15:04:17

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Stephen & I are not present in the same room, Brian, so to suggest he's wasting his breath..is illogical.

But nowhere near as brain-dead as the nonsensical guff that followed it.
Stephen Kenny
125   Posted 07/02/2012 at 15:44:29

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Kevin,

Some other facts for you.

You and I have agreed Ross is a better player than Neville. There may be a time when Neville would still be a better option due to the wealth of experience he carries. I doubt that time is a game against bottom of the league when an attcking midfielder is about to be subbed off.

I have shown that Ross was medically??? fit. as he had played twice in the weeks leading up to the game and was also scheduled to play against Wigan reserves.

I have not questioned the quality of the coaching or facilties at FF, only David Moyes handling of him and other youngsters coming through. I have also shown you evidence of what I believe is bringing people down a peg or if you prefer undermining their confidence.

Your use of the word 'nurtured' goes against my belief that he's being held back. I also believe this 'nurturing' or holding back is detrimental to Everton Football Club to who my ultimate loyalties lie, as much as I would LOVE to see a young lad from round here go on to be one of the worlds best players.

Several decorated experts including Stubbs, Capello and Keown have all commented on the immense potential of Ross. In that regard I don't think it unreasonable to draw comparisons with todays top players and how their career's were handled. There are obvious differences which for some bizzarre reason you refuse to acknowledge?

Hopefully those reading will see me trying to stay on point and you trying every diversionary device in your locker to muddy the debate and change the subject.

If his side defended as stoutly as you defend Moyes we'd all be booking flights to Madrid, Barca and Milan.
Dave Wilson
126   Posted 07/02/2012 at 16:09:05

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Only if we attacked the opposition with as much enthusiasm as you attack every single thing the manager does Stephen.
Stephen Kenny
131   Posted 07/02/2012 at 16:39:37

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Every single thing? Not true that Dave. Then again that's never stopped you before.
Kevin Hudson
140   Posted 07/02/2012 at 16:56:54

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Stephen,

I'll make this quick.

Due to the recent fluid on the knee, Moyes clearly wants more reserve game time before popping him back in the first team.

You & I have a different take on how best to handle Barkley's development.

Neither of us are prepared to back down from our respective positions.

And both of us have slaughtered each-other over the matter.

(Again, factual).
Stephen Kenny
144   Posted 07/02/2012 at 17:11:58

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Thanks Kevin.
Ciarán McGlone
152   Posted 07/02/2012 at 18:17:16

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Kevin,

I'll go to your first... er... fact.

It is not a 'fact' that he is being lauded disproportionately. That is your opinion.

I need go no further.
Mark Stone
159   Posted 07/02/2012 at 17:56:55

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Ferdinand age 17
Wilshere age 16
Terry age 18#
Walker age 18(Championship)
Cole age 18
Johnson age 17
Gerrard age 18
Lampard age 18
Defoe age 18
Rooney age 16
Parker age 17

Bollocks! How the fuck was Scott Parker playing regularly in the premier league at 17 when he was at Charlton who were in the first division? Did you read the bit about how, he made a 'few sporadic appearances' between 1997-2000 (ages 17-20) and was loaned out to Norwich aged 20 to get some first team experience?

Jermain Defoe made his debut for West ham when he was 3 months younger than Barkley is now. But he certainly wasn't a regular player and spent the next season at Bournemouth on loan. He was ~ a year older than Barkley is now, by the time he was being used regularly as a substitute in the 2001-2 season.

I've already pointed that Steven Gerrard hadn't even kicked a ball for Liverpool 1st 11 when he was the age Barkley is at now, he made his debut when he was 18 and 6 months, Barkley turned 18 2 months ago.

Frank Lampard was injured at Barkleys age and wasn't playing. He started playing regularly for WHU in 97/98, when he was 19/20. Before that he'd been on loan at Swansea City (not premiership).

Kyle Walker, as you have said yourself, wasn't playing in the premiership.

Ashley Cole made his first team debut one month before his 19th birthday (9 months older than Barkley is now). He made his premier league debut when he was 19 and 6 months (nearly a year and a half older than Barkley is now). When he was about Barkleys age (a bit older) he was out on loan in league 1.

Adam Johnson made the scarce appearance for Boro between 17-19 (usually in UEFA cups) but was out on loan at lower league Leeds and Watford at when he was 19/20, not playing in the premier league. He spent 2008/9 (age 21/22) coming on late from the bench and only got a regular starting place in the first team aged 22/23 during the 2009/10 season.

Mark Stone
166   Posted 07/02/2012 at 18:49:54

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'I found them on Wiki. Normally I wouldn't be arsed to go and look something like that up but you seem so sure I'm bang in the wrong that I decided to go and have a look myself.

Clearly a lot of good players have made thier debuts at a young age.'

1) Should have read Wiki a bit closer then, as you were wrong.

2) The discussion isn't about making your debut at a young age. What you were talking about was players who were (quote) 'playing regular football at the same age as Ross'. My response was that very few players are playing PREMIER LEAGUE football at Barkleys age. And as you have proven by listing those names, I was right.
Mark Stone
167   Posted 07/02/2012 at 18:59:06

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"He made his debut at 18 yrs 6 months, so Barkley made his debut about year younger than Gerrard, and at Barkleys age Gerrard had not even played a 1st team game! Then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good old whinge, hey?"

Perhaps Ross is more of a prospect than Gerrard was at a similar age? Yet you've got a cob on when I compare him to players of that ilk?''

According to who is Barkley a better prospect that Gerrard? The point I was making was a direct response to a previous comment "Gerrard et al who as they were good enough to be fast-tracked into the first team and never looked back in their respective careers" which is clearly erroneous given that. Gerrard hadn't even made his debut when he was as old as Barkley is now.
Stephen Kenny
172   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:06:00

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Mark,

1) No I weren't. Most were playing regular first team football at a similar age. Wrong

2) The discussion is about whether his progression is being handled properly. Wrong again.

Your own post shows that most were playing regular first team football, albeit not all at PL level, not at U18's level.

The Johnson I was referring to was Glen, but even still Adam Johnson was getting regular playing time at Boro.

Next you will be telling me Ross was injured last game too. Oh, wait you already tried that one.

I listed 11 players and you found fault with 5. Of those 5 three made debuts at a younger age than Ross, 1 was a regular in a championship side, 1 was playing in the UEFA Cup (By your admission) and 2 went out on loan and played regularly. Defoe scoring 10 goals in 10 games and has a permanent place in Bournemouth history for that achievement.

You really blew my argument out the water there.
Graham Mockford
176   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:12:53

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Let me just add more fuel to this particular fire ref Stephen Kenny #125. I disagree Ross Barkley is a better player than Phil Neville. Yes he definitely appears to have the potential and yes Phil is the current in vogue boo boy especially on this site but if my life depended on a result of a game this weekend I know who I'm picking and its not the 18 year old with six first team appearances but the player who has been deemed good enough to play 200+ games for Alex Ferguson and David Moyes, wanted by a Champions league team only a year ago, 6 PL winners medals, 3 FA Cup medals , 1 Champions League medal and the small matter of 59 England caps. But hey we all know he's shit don't we and has stole a living.
It all boils down to we are guessing Moyes intentions and it seems the positions are well entrenched but I know who I think knows best.
Stephen Kenny
179   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:41:49

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Graham

You won't find me slating Phil Neville once on this thread.

I've got respect for what he's achieved in the game.

If my life depended on winning a game and the first choice attacking mid got injured and my choices were pushing my defensive midfielder up top and bringing Neville on in the midfield holding role or putting a hot young prospect on as a direct replacement I'd go the other way.

That's not really what this is about though Graham. I don't believe Ross is getting the correct opportunitites to develop and is being harshly punished for a mistake made ages ago. Kevin and Mark have tried to convince me otherwise. They would have to concede that a man they revere had maybe made mistakes to be in a position to agree with me, something neither will ever do.
Mark Stone
180   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:09:01

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'One last thing. Ross was back playing 3 weeks ago'

Seriously, are you all there?

I report that David Moyes made the following quote nine (now ten) days ago. Moyes says ?Ross played a game for the youth team last week but then the reserve game in midweek was called off.

Did you honestly question that by telling me that he played for the U18's on the 21st Jan?

Can you not see the stupidity in that? Here's a clue

TEN DAYS AGO THE 21st JAN WAS 'LAST WEEK'. ITS THE SAME FUCKING GAME YOU NUMPTY!



In post 077 you post more erroneous crap than any individual post I have ever read on this website.
Graham Mockford
182   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:50:26

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Well one thing we know Stephen it would be curtains for one of us!
Graham Mockford
185   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:52:14

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Stephen Kenny see if you can spot the inconsistency in the following two statements both posted today by you.

#85 Every single time a 35yr old has been runs out before him it's confirmed.

#179 You won't find me slating Phil Neville once on this thread.
I'm thinking Mark has a point
Stephen Kenny
187   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:57:32

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Mark,

Are you really, really slow? He also played against Man Utd U18's the week after. Is he nursing him through or has he been dumped in the U18's and the Stiffs? Which one is it NUMPTY?

Graham, the funny thing is I wouldn't have put Ross on if he were on the bench against Wigan. I'd have gone for Drenthe. I just put hat forward as a IMO better option.
Stephen Kenny
188   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:09:20

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Graham,

That statement was made in relation to me stating that I feel Moyes is holding back Ross Barkley. Some of Moyes biggest fan's on this site feel Neville is finished, certainly in midfield where you needs to get about the pitch.

Me stating that I feel that Ross is a better prospect than Neville for that position at this point does not constitute me slating Neville in any way, shape or form.

Clearly you have just gone through the whole thread looking for an inkling of me having a go at Neville. You ended up clutching at straws. Like I said you won't find one.
Mark Stone
189   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:50:41

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'I lIsted 11 players and you found fault with 5. Of those 5 three made debuts at a younger age than Ross, 1 was a regular in a championship side, 1 was playing in the UEFA Cup (By your admission) and 2 went out on loan and played regularly. Defoe scoring 10 goals in 10 games and has a permanent place in Bournemouth history for that achievement.'

I stated issue with 7: Johnson, Cole, Walker, Lampard, Gerrard, Defoe and Scott Parker. I thought I'd also pulled you up on Terry who was out at Notts Forest at 20 and started being used regularly in the premier league whilst he was 20/21. So make that 8. He made very scarce appearances for Chelsea before that

' 1 was playing in the UEFA Cup (By your admission)' James Wallace and Jose Baxter played for Everton in the UEFA Cup at that age too. I'm sure if we were in it, Barkley would be in and around the squad (if fit).

This thread is about whether Barkley should be playing for Everton. There is a huge difference between playing in the premiership and playing in the championship / league one. I've made my stance on that here perfectly clear. All you have shown by listing those players above is that Barkley is being developed in a similar way to most of England's teenage players with good potential, and has been given somewhat more opportunities and at a younger age, than most of them (despite missing a year through injury). Players like Wiltshire and Rooney don't bear comparison. They are exceptional and not 'the norm'.

Graham Mockford
190   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:14:40

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Stephen Kenny what planet do you inhabit. You call Phil Neville a has been, then say you have never slated him.
I have no problem you arguing that he is a has been, it's a defendable position. What you cannot argue is that you have posted something that's factually incorrect. It's there for all to see.
So for the record is he a has been?
Mark Stone
191   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:16:38

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Are you really, really slow? He also played against Man Utd U18's the week after. Is he nursing him through or has he been dumped in the U18's and the Stiffs?

Not at all, I copied and pasted a quote by David Moyes. That game related to the game played on the 21st Jan. You then accused me of talking shit because Barkley had played on the 21st Jan. Massive fail. The Man Utd game never came into it. I never mentioned it and neither did you. I didn't even make an interpretation about the quote, I just cited it, stating that it was a quote made over a week ago.


Which one is it NUMPTY?

Clearly you lad
Dave Wilson
193   Posted 07/02/2012 at 19:55:04

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Stephen Kenny

Give it up lad your talking about stuff you dont know absolutely nothing about.

You have no idea where Barkleys fitness level is at.

You have no clues as to why Moyes isn't playing him.

And you have no clue why other youngsters arent/are included.

Disagree all you want with the decisions, but dont try to pass your wild speculation off as anything other than Wild speculation.

If you have only seen Barkley make one bad mistake then you were`nt watching the games.

You may well be in awe of "experts" like Capello, Keown and Stubbs think but most of us want to make our own minds up. we saw the boy`s potential, but we also saw his errors.

Now there is a school of thought that believes a youngster is best pulled out of the front line if he is making potentially costly mistakes, for the good of the team AND for the good of the kids confidence.

You need to recognise that opinion, because the suggestion that Moyes is deliberately holding him back is beyond ridiculous.

Its in Moyes`s interest that youngsters develop and your claim that he likes to take them down a peg or two is not only wild speculation . .its as idiotic as the claim that he deliberately holds them back.

I`m guessing you have never heard a single conversation between Moyes and one of these youngsters. You`ve never seen any of their progress behind the scenes and you know absolutely zilch about his professional relationships with them,.Yet you still spout up your cockeyed, crackpot theories.

Be honest, cut the BS and just admit you really dont have a scooby as to whats going on Behind the scenes.
Stephen Kenny
194   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:21:01

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"Players like Wiltshire and Rooney don't bear comparison. They are exceptional and not 'the norm'."

According to some mentioned earlier Barkley falls into this bracket Mark. You seem to be under the impression I wan't him playing 90mins week in, week out. Why? I haven't said that once.

He has been frozen out of the first team picture for no apparent reason when he could have done a job for us. Again why?

Him coming on for 20-30 mins against better sides and starting occassionally against the lower rated sides would see him continue to develop. How does playing with players he's head and shoulder's above for the U18's help him develop?

BTW he's just been called up for England U19's. So it's not just me who see's him as a level above EFC U18's.

Dean Adams
195   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:00:40

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Maybe he meant Distin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark Stone
196   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:25:03

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Incidentally, it's normal at Premier League clubs for young players (~18 years) to play a couple of games in the U18 and reserve teams after a layoff through injury. It's a good exercise in getting back to fitness. The players don't have an issue with it ... it's part and parcel.
Stephen Kenny
197   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:26:24

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Dave,

A shocking level of hypocrisy in this from a fella who regularly defers to Moyes expert knowledge.

"You may well be in awe of "experts" like Capello, Keown and Stubbs think but most of us want to make our own minds up. we saw the boy`s potential, but we also saw his errors."

You tell me to give it up because I've offered my opinion on why he's out the side. Yet try to paint me as having no opinion of my own while everyone else has made thier own mind up. Convieniently ignoring Mark and Kevin's constant deference to Moyes knows best.

You don't think Capello is an expert in judging a player's potential? Are you for real?

Then this "You have no idea where Barkleys fitness level is at."

I have Dave, he played twice for the U18's and was due to play against Wigan reserves. Are you saying he's not fit enough to play even though he would have played three games in just under three weeks.

Have a word with yourself.

BTW I'm not a lad, I'm a grown man.

Robbie Muldoon
198   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:43:13

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See the way MON has come in to Sunderland and plucked that Mcleleleley whatever his name is from the reserves? Its paid off, vision that Steve Bruce lacked, but clear to somebody else.

Moyes must be fucking blind! Neville ahead of Barkley hahahahaha
Dave Wilson
199   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:36:46

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Breaking news Stephen

. . . being nursed back in a couple of junior games is a million miles away from being ready to play in the toughest league in the world.

. . .Cappelo lost ALL credibility the minute we all realised he had nothing to offer when he had to deal with ordinary players.

. . . Crackpot conspiracy theories and measured opinion are two completely different things.

. . .Confession is good for the soul - Admit you havent got a scooby what your talking about
Graham Mockford
200   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:45:23

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I'm assuming your lack of comeback means you see my point. Don't worry about it ,we all get it wrong sometimes. Just some of us more often than others grown man.
Richard Dodd
201   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:38:17

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Don`t be surprised to see Ross given a spell out on loan to gain experience, that`s if the rules allow.
Graham Mockford
203   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:51:13

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Robbie Muldoon is that Claude Mcleleleley by any chance or maybe you mean James Maclean!!
Mark Stone
204   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:54:23

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"He played twice for the U18s and was due to play against Wigan reserves. Are you saying he's not fit enough to play even though he would have played three games in just under three weeks?"

Not unusual for an 18-year-old player on the brink of the first team to have a couple of run outs for the U18s following an injury. It's not about who he's playing with / against, it's about fitness. There is a difference between being fit enough to play for the reserves / U18 team and in the Premier League.
Mark Stone
205   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:59:21

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'He's just been called up for England U19s. So it's not just me who sees him as a level above EFC U18s.'

Agreed, he wouldn't have just been given a 4½-year contract at Everton if that is what they thought. Who put him in the team in the first place?
Mark Stone
207   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:01:15

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"He has been frozen out of the first team picture for no apparent reason when he could have done a job for us. Again why?"

Injury and fitness.
Mark Stone
208   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:04:09

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"Him coming on for 20-30 mins against better sides and starting occasionally against the lower rated sides would see him continue to develop. It could actually be very damaging to put him in the Premier League when he is not yet fully fit. How does playing with players he's head and shoulder's above for the U18's help him develop?"

It's about fitness, he's returning from injury.
Peter Laing
209   Posted 07/02/2012 at 20:49:05

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Mark Stone you can use your bully-boy tactics, snide remarks and childish put-down of others all you like to try to assert / flex your own self worth, it's also pathetic reading the comments of your arse licking cohorts Wilson and Mockford. Stephen Kenny is voicing his opinion on an internet forum for fuck's sake, getting off on the Internet at a perceived opinion of winning an argument needs a serious reality check, very sad anorak clad imbeciles !
Mark Stone
211   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:06:49

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Just to finish this off, as it's become a farce now, I'd love to see a fully fit Ross Barkley given some playing time. I think it would be irresponsible to play him in the Premier League before he is 100% fit. In the meantime, let's remember that whilst he might not be playing as often as Pele, George Best, Eusebio or Lionel Messi where when they were his age, his development is far from being hampered. He has had more first team action and at a younger age than most of the 'Golden Generation' did, some of whom had not even made their debuts yet.

Barkley has not had a spat with the manager, and is not being 'taught a lesson'. He has just signed a 4½-year deal and I for one am looking forward to watching him develop into a regular first team player and potential future England player.
Graham Mockford
212   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:11:30

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Peter arse licking is not really my thing but I retain an open mind.
I wonder why if you struggle to understand healthy internet debate you now seen so keen to join in.
Are you familiar with the phrase 'hoist with one's own petard'. If not Google will help, the Internet a wonderful thing.
Mark Stone
213   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:15:27

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'Stephen Kenny is voicing his opinion on an internet forum'

As am I. What is your point?

If you don't want people to comment on your posts then write them on a piece of paper and stick them on your bedroom wall. If you comment on an Internet forum it's going to draw a reaction. I strongly disagree with a lot of what Stephen Kenney has said ... a lot (most) of it is simply not true. When I see that, I'm going to challenge it. Just like you are doing here.
Stephen Kenny
215   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:20:52

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"Cappelo lost ALL credibility the minute we all realised he had nothing to offer when he had to deal with ordinary players. "

Who's WE ALL? or are you trying to pass off your own opinion on a man who's managed and played with some of the greatest players that ever walked the earth as a consensus to boost your own non-argument and to discredit mine?

There's some crackpot's on this thread Dave, but you need to look a bit closer to home.
Mark Stone
216   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:22:39

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'snide remarks and childish put-down of others'

'your arse licking cohorts Wilson and Mockford'

What if I'm a kettle, your a pot, and you call me black?
Barry Rathbone
217   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:06:25

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I normally put the boot in on Moyes in such circumstances but regarding Barkley the lad looked fatigued when he played at Blackburn.

Not a criticism just an observation that maybe his stamina levels haven't quite developed to deal with 90 mins in the Prem.
Stephen Kenny
218   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:27:46

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Graham

How is saying I think Ross is a better option than Neville calling him a has been?

Btw I never 'disappeared' I've got a life outside of internet forums that needs a bit time now & again.

While I strongly disagree with Mark and Dave at least they have a point to make as I will readily admit that Moyes freezing Ross out is an opinion, my interpretation of events.

Your trying to attribute quotes to me that I haven't made about Neville and jumping on a perceived bandwagon. As Peter pointed out you look a complete Arsehole doing so.

Google that you bad joke!
Stephen Kenny
220   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:37:53

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Mark,

"Just to finish this off, as it's become a farce now, I'd love to see a fully fit Ross Barkley given some playing time. I think it would be irresponsible to play him in the Premier League before he is 100% fit. In the meantime, let's remember that whilst he might not be playing as often as Pele, George Best, Eusebio or Lionel Messi where when they were his age, his development is far from being hampered. He has had more first team action and at a younger age than most of the 'Golden Generation' did, some of whom had not even made their debuts yet.

Barkley has not had a spat with the manager, and is not being 'taught a lesson'. He has just signed a 4½-year deal and I for one am looking forward to watching him develop into a regular first team player and potential future England player."

You can post this as much as you like it doesn't make it fact, just your opinion.
Stephen Kenny
221   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:40:43

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Fair comment Barry. Like I said earlier in this debate I don't think he should be playing every week. But I do think he has the ability to play more than he has.
Nick Armitage
222   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:35:44

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James Martin

"..has played a lot of ball playing centrebacks Yobo, Lescott, Distin, Heitinga"

Yobo, Lescott, Distin. Ball playing centrebacks?

Behave.
Dave Wilson
223   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:28:43

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Stephen.

By "we all" I mean the millions of people have see through this pisstaker - Obviously you aint one of us.


Now when you said earlier you would try the old side tracking trick next time you were caught talking bollocks. I didnt think you meant you would be doing it quite so soon.
It wont wash.

You have been wildly speculating all day about a subject you clearly know nothing about.

Either admit you havent got a clue waht goes on behind the scene or prove me wrong.

when you fail to do either, scroll back and count how many times you told others that THEY were "talking bollocks"



Graham Mockford
225   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:47:46

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Stephen glad to know you have such a fulfilling life but sorry to be such a stickler for accuracy. In your post #85 who exactly is the 35 year has been your referring to. If its not Phil Neville I retract everything I've said, if it is please explain how you square that comment with your later assertion you have never slated Phil Neville on this site. Just curious.
Stephen Kenny
227   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:49:35

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Fucking hell Dave now your claiming to speak for MILLIONS!!!

Then have the cheek to call me for talking bollocks in the next sentence.

I definitely ain't one of you.

As I said in my response to your pet dog Graham I'm putting forward my interpretation of events.

I can't prove I'm right any more than you can prove I'm wrong. That's the thing with this lark. None of us have an inside track. We just look at events and draw conclusions from them.
Graham Mockford
230   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:58:16

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Pet dog. Sounds like someone can't answer a simple question therefore resorts to name calling to provoke a different line of response. Well I'm not playing.

Answer the question: Did you call Phil Neville a has-been, then claim you have never slated him on this site? Two options: yes or no..... simples.
Dave Wilson
231   Posted 07/02/2012 at 21:57:06

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So your claims about the way Moyes deals with Barkley were indeed wild speculation then Stephen?

Fair enough.


BTW, me dog's name is Moysie

Attacks nobody, costs a fortune to keep... and we blame him for fucken everything.
Stephen Kenny
232   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:03:13

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Graham,

I didn't mention how fulfilling my life was.

Fair do's I called him a has been. I'll send him a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates.

Are you suggesting his best days are in front of him?
Stephen Kenny
233   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:12:32

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Speculation??? of course. Backed up by my interpretation of a series of events. Where's the 'wild' come from.

Is your assertion that Cappello has been found out by millions wild speculation??? Or have you done a survey?

If you've done the survey then I'll refrain from calling you a hypocrite.
Stephen Kenny
234   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:15:51

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Dave,

Send your dog down the market with buttons. It'll get you all kinds for your money.

I'll give him credit where I think it's due.
Graham Mockford
236   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:13:47

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No quite obviously his best days are behind him. If we go right back to the start we both have different opinions on who Moyes best deploys in various instances. That's fine, it's why we come on here and argue the toss.

My point, even to the point I'm starting to bore myself, is that you are trying to argue a position that is completely untenable ie you have never slated Phil Neville.

That doesn't make me anyone's pet dog just stating facts. You seem to struggle between opinion and fact. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me ...... that's opinion.
You claiming not to have said what is there for all to see is fact. Just saying.
Stephen Kenny
239   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:24:23

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Graham,

I'm struggling to see why your arguing about whether I slated Neville on a thread dominated by a discussion about Ross Barkley?

Yes, I typed he's a has-been. I used that phrase (not the kindest, I admit) to describe a player whose best days are behind him.

What has that got to do with anything that's been discussed in the following 100 posts?

Me and you debated whether Ross would have been a better sub than Neville at the point he was brought on.

If I called him a spiky haired cunt who's shite it wouldn't alter the debate we had, so why are you fixated on it?
James Martin
240   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:30:28

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Nick Armitage what would you call them? Yobo always got aught out doing some fancy trick or other, Lescott was just quality on a different level to anything we have now and Man City recognised this and are now reaping the benefits. Distin regularly brings it out the back with his pace and technique. Jagielka has been the ever-present hoofer but Moyes has picked some decent footballing centre-backs in his time (including Ferrari on loan).
Graham Mockford
252   Posted 07/02/2012 at 22:40:15

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Stephen this is so painful. Despite the fact you cannot deny my point that you quite evidently stated something that is factually incorrect, ie you slated PN,and then claimed never to have, your constant changing of the subject, name calling makes me realise I am wasting my time with you. It's like talking to the proverbial brick wall.... The Internet don't you just love it.

If you can be arsed just check out who brought Phil Neville into the discussion first. Little clue.... It wasn't me. This particular pet dog has had enough.
John Crawley
262   Posted 08/02/2012 at 00:31:34

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I can understand people's comments regarding Ross Barkley and taking it easy with him at the minute if he has been suffering from fluid on the knee. However what I find harder to understand is his treatment being subbed in the Blackburn game and his almost complete lack of first team action after that and up to his latest injury.

Here are David Moyes comments from October of last year:
"Ross has had a double hernia and he?s also had a triple broken leg in that period, so he?s missed his development. He?s missed games and missed football. What we?re finding is Ross will probably make his mistakes in our first team, which could be costly to the team and the club. I?ve got to weigh up when and where I think I can allow that to happen."

At the time of reading those comments I thought Moyes was wrong and I still think he is. I don't think anyone is saying that Barkley should have been playing week in week out but I think it is hard to argue that he shouldn't have been getting more playing time as a substitute. If Moyes didn't trust him not to make mistakes then surely he should have loaned him out to get some playing time? Players only develop if they are being challenged and their abilities tested, I don't think this is going to happen by playing in the reserves.
Stephen Kenny
290   Posted 08/02/2012 at 08:21:11

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John Crawley well said. You'd think I was trying to send the kid to Basra the way some go on.

James, If I'm right you came over with Landon? Rooney was gone a long time before Landon?

Go and look up Ross' physical stats before making sweeping comments that plenty disagree with.
Kevin Hudson
294   Posted 08/02/2012 at 08:18:38

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Ciaran, (152)

"The lad is already the best young player of his generation," Stephen Kenny - post 808.

If this isn't a factual disproportional lauding of a player who's roughly played less than 3 hours of senior football, then I don't know what is.

But I'm sure a trip to La Masia, Clairfontaine or De Toekomst would put this rhetoric to the test.
Stephen Kenny
296   Posted 08/02/2012 at 08:43:07

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Kevin,

You think I'm talking about every player his age in the WORLD?

At Finch Farm mate! Although you could say at a national level too. Stuart Pearce wouldn't disgaree.
Kevin Hudson
298   Posted 08/02/2012 at 09:02:05

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Oh....I finally get it, Stephen.

You were merely pointing out that he is the best player from within OUR own youth ranks..!!

Silly me. Often, when people refer to the best player of a particular generation, they're normally referencing the Pele's, Maradona's and Messi's.. (of this world..!)

But you on the other hand, were only comparing Ross to a handful of kids down in Speke; okay.
Stephen Kenny
306   Posted 08/02/2012 at 09:31:03

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It's in Halewood Kevin.

It's difficult enough to watch our own U18's and reserves, never mind every other side in world football. I'm not qualified to make that type of comment and I wouldn't do so.

From what I've seen myself, heard from informed commentators and read from people who's opinions count for a lot in Football (just not to Dave Wilson and his MILLIONS OF MATES) we have got a special player on his hands. I'd like to see his development moved forward at a quicker pace. Your quite happy the way it's being managed.

Clearly we've both said all we want to say on the matter so I can't see the point in going round the houses again.

Mark Wilson
307   Posted 08/02/2012 at 08:26:53

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I've had a quick look-see at this mega Stephen and Kevin thread and may be wrong but....can't see Blue Union mentioned anywhere. If so, and without wishing to insult Colin F and the guys over at BU/SOS etc, how refreshing it is to have a break from the doom and gloom of our financial mess. It's still a mess incidentally. The transfer window cheered me up, a little. The city win cheered me up, a lot. The Wigan display returned me to the steady state of frustration bordering on despair. but what I really needed was a good old fashioned boisterous debate about players, tactics, the manger and reading Kevin and Stephen slinging ale house / boring idiot type insults across the net. Ace stuff.

Oh, and whilst on the subject..... Surely it can be understood that when you watch a display like that at Wigan, and many similar and even worse this season, supporters (particularly the incredible 4500 who travelled to the DW stadium) have a right to question why the manager sees the qualities of the skipper as more appropriate than a promising creative youngster in a game positively screaming for something different than tough tackling gutsy commitment ?

Now this isn't an anti Neville rant. I have huge respect for a guy who I see as a superb skipper, a really brilliant club man and at times an effective player. I think he has a good future as a coach and manager. But, like the brilliant Cahill, he is a fading star, and that's hardly a strange thing is it? Age and injuries are catching up. The trick is how the inevitable and appropriate replacement of players like this happens. It's not easy at our club where due to our status as the paupers of the entire division we have to manage the transitions from within, and not via big money purchases.

If Ross is as good, hell even half as good, as his press, then despite all the reasonable comments about development and being brought on in a steady manner etc, and taking into account injuries etc, it's STILL hard to fathom why the lad isn't getting a subs chance in games like that one st Wigan? The suspicion remains that the boss is still so incredibly cautious and yes, just a wee bit negative, that he refuses to take the gamble needed in games where we are in a tight, dull, contest and er, playing utter shite. Why was Neville a better prospect to bring on than Drenthe and go three at the back and (a) try to equalise and (b) outrageously, try to win?

I believe that Ross is going to be a really good player but I do not "know" this as fact, obviously. Nobody does but some fair judges seem to rate the lad. However, exactly the same hype has accompanied Rodwell for ages and frankly though I think he IS just starting to come on, this lad is at present doing little to justify the hype and is looking a bit over rated and very injury prone and one who is slow to recover from those injuries.

Despite all the stats and angry mud slinging in this thread, and yes despite the many sensible comments about taking time to support the guys development etc, and yes taking into account a very tough spell with injuries over the last 18 months, it still feels perfectly reasonable to suggest that the Moyes is being just a bit over cautious in his use of RB at a time when even in flashes his skill and creativity could make a small but much needed difference, and cheer us all up, a little ?
Cheers, Mark (RustyMan)
Stephen Kenny
310   Posted 08/02/2012 at 09:37:48

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BTW Kevin

If I've insulted you I apologise. I'm not a keyboard warrior by any stretch.
Dave Wilson
312   Posted 08/02/2012 at 09:22:55

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Stephen

When you said Barkley was fit to play in the premiership after a couple of junior games, you were speculating.

When you said Moyes likes to take youngster`s down "a peg or two" you were wildly speculating

But when you claimed Moyes deliberately holds back our younger players, you were talking out of your arse.

Now you may think by back tracking and admitting you were merely "speculating" you are getting yourself out of a corner, but that would only have worked if you hadnt repeately told other people THEY were the ones who were "talking bollocks"
You have really embarresed yourself.

Your latest diversionary tactic - you know, the one you were whining Kevin uses - doesnt wash.

The thread is about how the club has handled Barkley. A subject you`d have been better advised to stay away from, because you have clearly and repeatedly demonstrated you`re "opinion" was based on little more than a determination to think the worst of the manager and pie in the sky speculation
Dave Wilson
314   Posted 08/02/2012 at 09:52:53

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Oh Stephen

RE your pathetic diversionary tactic.

Let me make this a little clearer for you. the millions and millions who now see Capello as a pisstaker who has brought nothing to the international team are not all my mates but they most definitely speak for me.

If you dont think they exist I suggest you get out more.
For future reference dont say I suggested or hinted these millions existed, Say I insisted upon it.
Stephen Kenny
315   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:01:40

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Dave,

If he's fit enough to play two U18's games and a reserve game he's fit enough to play in the Premier League. Nothing speculative about that. Other said he was injured I begged to differ. Now you've changed tack, who's the one backtracking?

Do I think Moyes likes to bring players down a peg. Deffo. I've said why often enough and showed public comments to back it. Speculation of course. You saying he doesn't is also speculation. Unless he confides in you?

I didn't see myself in a corner to begin with. As many have agreed with me as disagreed. Not that that bothers me either way. My opinions are my own and nothing I've read on this thread has changed them.

No diversions, no change of opinion clear?

You clearly rate your own opinion higher than anyone else's. A quick look at plenty of the other threads on this site will show your in a group of one there.

Your not in a position to tell me what subjects I should stay away from. Especially after insisting you speak for MILLIONS over whether Fabio Capello is a suitable judge of a young players potential.

I haven't got a determination to think the worst of anyone. If I thought David Moyes was doing the best job that could be done for EFC then I'd say so. I don't it's that simple.

Richard Dodd
316   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:20:14

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I fully expect Ross to be going out on loan anytime soon.The experience he will gain lower down the leagues will serve him better than continuing at U18 level.The same applies to Vellios.
Mark Stone
317   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:20:39

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'If he's fit enough to play two U18's games and a reserve game he's fit enough to play in the Premier League'

That is far from true, and I say that from experience. I know about this, you don't.
Stephen Kenny
320   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:34:00

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Mark

You don't know the first thing about me, including my profession or knowledge of the physical aspects of the game.

If you like you can enlighten me as to why playing two games of football at U18 and being fit enough to play at reserve level (The one directly below PL level) is such a sea-change from being fit enough to play a sub's role or a hour of football against a distinctly un physical Wigan side?
Dave Wilson
321   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:16:31

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Stephen

I didnt say the lad was injured so why would I back track ?
Your claim that a guy who is being eased back with a couple of junior games is ready for the prem is . .well just plain stupid.

Early on in the thread you repeately told people They were "talking bollocks"
You were challenge, found yourself in a corner and climbed down by humbly admitting you own posts had been pure speculation.

I think we have established you dont have the foggiest idea what happens with Barkley. and you thought you were coveruing up that little fact by repeately telling others they were talking bollocks.


BTW read my post. I say the millions speak for me, not the other way around as you`re clumsy attemtp to twist my words suggested
Stephen Kenny
322   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:38:22

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Richard,

For once I agree with you. Assuming of course, he's fit enough?
Mark Stone
325   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:40:39

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You don't know the first thing about me, including my profession or knowledge of the physical aspects of the game.

Tell me about it then.
Stephen Kenny
326   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:39:13

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"Cappelo lost ALL credibility the minute we all realised he had nothing to offer when he had to deal with ordinary players."

That not you speaking for Millions? I'm not twisting anything. Just sticking to the points I've raised throughout this thread.

Stephen Kenny
327   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:46:57

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Mark,

If you answer my question I asked you I will.

Mark Stone
328   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:46:45

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I can tell that you lack the knowledge and experience, because I teach it and practise it every day.
Stephen Kenny
329   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:53:30

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Mark,

If you point out why I'm wrong I'll readily admit so.

Unlike some, I'm not so arrogant as to think nobody can teach me something.

BTW, I noted you have mentioned your profession.
Dave Wilson
330   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:48:22

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"The millions who now see Capello as the pisstaker who has brought nothing to the international team are not all my mates but they most definitely speak for me # post 314

clear enough. ?

Dversionary tactics wont change a thing . this is a thread about Barkley, you told people they were talking bollocks and have been forced to climb down.

maybe a little lesson somewhere in there for you
Mark Stone
331   Posted 08/02/2012 at 10:55:25

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'If you like you can enlighten me as to why playing two games of football at U18 and being fit enough to play at reserve level (The one directly below PL level) is such a sea-change from being fit enough to play a sub's role or a hour of football against a distinctly un physical Wigan side?'

For a start,, reserve level is far, far removed from 'one below the PL'. That's the championship your talking about there.
Mark Stone
332   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:03:30

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'BTW, I noted you have mentioned your profession'

I haven't. I mentioned some of the consultancy I do.

'Unlike some, I'm not so arrogant as to think nobody can teach me something'

There are people who can teach me something, I'm sure there is plenty you could teach me about, but not about athlete development.
Stephen Kenny
334   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:11:53

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No diversions, no climbdowns. No change of opinion.

On the other hand your changing your tune quicker than than the fiddler on the Titanic.

First off you claimed to speak for millions, now your claiming unidentified millions speak for you?

Who are these people and how are they all better placed than Fabio Capello formerly of Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, to comment on the potential of a young professional footballer?

If Mark shows me why I'm wrong with some inside knowledge of Ross' injury and why he weren't ready I'll accept it as he's in's a position to say so.

Your not so I suggest you take a bit of your own advice.
Stephen Kenny
336   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:20:54

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Mark,

I've now said more than once if you can point out why I'm wrong I'll accept it.

Are you going to give me a reason why playing two U18's games and being fit enough to play for the reserves in just under three weeks is not enough to prepare a young man to play a part against a distinctly un-physical Wigan side?
Dave Wilson
337   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:22:38

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So

Going from the certainty with which you "educated" us
Dave Wilson
338   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:27:37

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To the arrogance with which you dismissed other people`s opinion as "bollocks".

All the way down to admitting you didn't know anything and were merely speculationg does not constitute a climb down?

See ya, Stephen.
Stephen Kenny
340   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:28:27

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Where did I claim to educate you?

Who's changing the subject now Dave?

Everybody that post's on here is posting their opinion. I assumed everybody understood that's how internet forums work? Not once did I say I've got inside info. Usually if posting facts or something from a source people make that clear. You and I have been on here long enough to know that.

My opinion hasn't changed and I stick by all the comments I've made.

You posting I've climbed down, was backed into a corner or anything else won't make it so.

Everybody who has read this thread will see my sticking to what I believe. They will also see you trying every trick in the book to try and discredit me without ever doing so.

They will also see some highly hypocritical behaviour from you, where you have changed your tune more than once. One of which I've just pointed out.

IMO your the one making a fool of themself. I won't claim to speak for anyone else. It's not my cup of tea.
Anthony Jones
344   Posted 08/02/2012 at 11:50:30

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Stephen, 340, you are clearly wasting your time.

Well done for having the longest argument ever on Toffeeweb, but I don't think your detractors are genuinely considering your point of view.

They are playing the indignant outrage card to undermine your credibility. A tactic widely employed by all of those who struggle with logic and reason.
Richard Dodd
345   Posted 08/02/2012 at 13:49:22

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Getting back to young Ross, are we certain that he is yet the superstar he is being made out to be?

Not even Wayne Rooney managed to attract a thread of c200 postings and well though he played pre-season, realists think he has much to do before becoming crowned `the greatest ever`!

Personally, I trust Davey`s judgement on this one ? how can the cybermob have a clue how to handle a promising prospect, which is all he is?
Brian Waring
350   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:23:20

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Kevin(#112) Was you born with your head up your arse mate, or has it just happened recently?
Anthony Jones
352   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:33:09

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Richard Dodd is either:

a. a sad attention seeker
b. incapable of critical thought
c. a deluded Everton fanatic

Discuss.
Kevin Hudson
356   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:28:35

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I don't know..tough one Brian..nature versus nurture..

But I'd rather not 'waste my breath,' with any more sarcasm.

Especially when you trivialise matters by suggesting, in my eyes, selling Barkley for a tenner would be "the right thing to do."

Really can't see how that would advance the dialogue.
Mark Stone
357   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:30:37

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"Are you going to give me a reason why playing two U18's games and being fit enough to play for the reserves in just under three weeks is not enough to prepare a young man to play a part against a distinctly un-physical Wigan side?"

Stephen, this debate hasn't just been about the Wigan game though, has it? You were comparing the development of Barkley against other talented footballers when they were his age, suggesting that he hasn't been getting as much game time. The point I made to you, is that he has actually had more game time than a lot of those other players had, when they were his age, and is being used in a similar way. I can comment on this, because I have been heavily involved in the development of players of that age (including some who have subsequently moved clubs at extortionate prices). There is a tendancy to look at players and see ... this player made his debut at 16, this one at 17 - so why can't Barkley? Well he did, and he is doing. But all of those players also featured in U18 and reserve games, too. And players might have made their debut at 17 and then not appeared in the first team for another two years. What I have continually pointed out to you, is that Barkley is being brought through at a similar rate to other talented young players.
Mark Stone
361   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:59:23

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To be specific about the Wigan game, I'm not saying he couldn't have played a part, I AM saying that him playing a couple of U18 games isn't a bad thing, and isn't uncommon at all. Both Rooney and Wiltshere played in the FA Youth Cup whilst they part of the first team and had made several appearances for the first team.
Kevin Hudson
362   Posted 08/02/2012 at 14:57:03

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Stephen, (310)

No need to apologise - absolutely no insult whatsoever taken by me; and.. (my sarcastic asides notwithstanding.!) none intended towards your good self.

Been an enjoyable kickaround. Cheers.
GJ Butler
363   Posted 08/02/2012 at 15:06:36

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Mark, your 'I know about this, you don't' comment is absolutely infuriating.

Your comments were both arrogant and ignorant. In my own opinion, if the boy played in those games, then he was fit enough to play against Wigan - regardless of your knowledge of the human body. It is your opinion he wasn't, which you are entitled to, but the fact you apparantly work in the profession does not automatically make your opinion correct. (Just ask the 100+ posters on here daily professing to be more capable of managing Everton than Moyes).

For the record, work in an office and have glasses (if it helps to descredit my own opinions).

Jimmy Sørheim
365   Posted 08/02/2012 at 15:14:31

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I would prefer to see Barkley play instead of Neville in midfield, only because I rate Neville as being well past his prime.

However, I do have an issue with Moyes not using the best "form" players, such as Drenthe and Vellios!

There is no defense of being pleased with a draw against bottom team Wigan, and by not playing Drenthe and Vellios I Moyes is preventing the two of them to develop both individually and together for the best of the team.
Ciarán McGlone
366   Posted 08/02/2012 at 15:42:27

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Mark's a PE teacher ? everybody stand back!
Mark Stone
378   Posted 08/02/2012 at 16:24:26

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"It is your opinion he wasn't, which you are entitled to, but the fact you apparantly work in the profession does not automatically make your opinion correct"

Actually, GJ, it isn't. You are putting words in my mouth that I haven't even said. Nowhere have I stated that Barkley wasn't capable of playing in that game, or that I think it was either the right or wrong decision for him to play. What I have said, is that just because he played in two U18 games, does not necessarily mean that he was fit enough to, or should have played in the premier league against Wigan last weekend. Now, you argue against that point by saying that in your opinion, because he played in those games automatically means that he was fit enough to play against Wigan. I can catagorically state that this is not the case. I can say this with confidence because the average amount of distance covered per player during an U18 game is much less than a premier league game, and the average amount of time spent sprinting is also much less in an under 18, than a premier league game. Also, the average strength, speed and endurance of an U18's footballer is markedly less than the same than for premier league players. Finally, the average extent of muscle damage is greater following a premier league match than an U18 game (measured invasively) and the build of peripheral fatigue related metabolites is greater following a premier league game, than an U18 game.

What that shows us, is that from a fitness perspective, the U18 game is less physically demanding than the premier league. That IS a fact I've collected the data myself at two different premier league clubs, and I have similar data from other clubs. I also have undergraduates out on work placement at the moment collecting comparative data at two, league two clubs. So, with that in mind, you are wrong. Being fit to play in two U18 games doesn't automatically mean that you are ready to play in the premier league.

Secondly, its not just about fitness, is it? This is where my opinion comes in. Ross Barkley is 18. He has made only 3 senior, competitive appearances in his whiole life. He hasn't played any competitive football for 3 months. It is a lot to ask a player who has only ever played 3 senior, competitive games to jump straight into the first team after a three month lay off. It is commonplace in such circumstances that such players will be given a run out in less demanding (and less important) games before being thrust into the premier league. By the way, regardless of what people say about Wigan, and whether or not they are 'physical' - they are in the premier league and have been for a number of years, They have some very good, experienced players.
Mark Stone
379   Posted 08/02/2012 at 16:29:14

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"Mark, your 'I know about this, you don't' comment is absolutely infuriating."

But go back over the debate, which was about whether Barkley is getting enough game time generally. It wasn't about Wigan and it wasn't about fitness to play in that game. Specifically, it was a comparison between Barkley and other players of a similar age. The point I was making was that Barkley is seeing similar if not more, first team action to many other players his age. I do know that, GJ, because I worked with some of them at the time, and remember. Don't tell me a player who I was working with was playing regularly in premier league at, for example, 18 years old, when I was working him at the time and I know for a fact that he wasn't, and then not expect me to say that he wasn't. Its not an opinion. Its fact. The player either played or didn't. And he didn't, making me right, in that circumstance.
Stephen Kenny
382   Posted 08/02/2012 at 16:36:28

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Mark,

I've no doubt your dead right. But a large part of this debate was based around whether Ross was injured or not. Others took your comments as read that he was not fit to play which influenced the debate.

I take your point about the demands of the senior game and not rushing him back. Fair do's perhaps he does need more time to be physically ready after an injury lay-off. But Everton Football Club are also sorely lacking guile and energy in the final third.and Ross can bring that.

I'm not advocating him playing 90 mins every week, just not being completely removed from the picture.

Why he was out the picture we can only speculate. You have your opinion and I have mine regarding why.

Having read through the thread again you make some fair points I missed, but bear in mind I was debating with four people at once. Not all of them trying to stick to the OP.
GJ Butler
384   Posted 08/02/2012 at 16:41:57

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Mark, firstly may I clear up that I am not particularly bothered at this moment in time whether Barkley plays or not. I made my comment because I found yours arrogant and ignorant towards another poster, as previously stated.

Secondly, your well collected data, whilst impressive, is entirely irrelevant to me as we are not talking about the nations under 18s that you have studied or worked with, we are discussing one - Ross Barkley. A player we have seen play premiership football already. Stephen implied that if Ross played in two under 18 games and a reserve game, then he is fit enough to play in the premier league. And I tend to agree (unless our youth team management are playing unfit players), so from that point, I am not wrong - it is an opinion on Ross Barkleys fitness.

Thirdly your point on not being just about fitness I agree with - it is a response to an arguement I never made.

As for your last point, apologies but it made absolutely no sense to me. I never said you knew someone who played who someone else said didn't play but you knew played so couldnt be told he didn't play...
Andy Crooks
389   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:05:37

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Dave Wilson,while I agree with you entirely about Capello I disagree with you about the amount showing disillusionment. To me he is vastly overpaid for doing a job which,and I've thought about this,Martin O;Neill could do better and cheaper.

There are many loyal England supporters who pack Wembley and I'm fucked if I know where they come from. Is it a north south divide?

As to this thread,well,it's been fascinating as an example of the entrenched views on this site. What has happened to Barkley is a matter of pure conjecture. It seems to me that Stephen Kenny is perfectly entitled to give his take on it.

His handling of Barkley is behind the scenes and we have no other option than to trust him on it.I'm more concerned about his handling of Shane Duffy. He ,and I resented his decision, was spot on against City. I just hope that Shane doesn't disappear for the rest of the season.
Andy Crooks
390   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:23:18

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Sorry,but my post might have suggested that I was concerned about Stephen Kenny's handling of Duffy. Much as I respect Mr Kenny I'll leave that to David Moyes.
Stephen Kenny
392   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:28:31

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It's probably for the best Andy.

I agree with your sentiments about Duffy. He has shown enough in these games to hopefully get another run in the side. Maybe even make a late run for the Republic squad?
Lee Courtliff
398   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:21:20

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Entertaining stuff boys. Well done.
Noel Lynam
401   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:45:15

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"I can catagorically state that this is not the case. I can say this with confidence because the average amount of distance covered per player during an U18 game is much less than a Premier League game, and the average amount of time spent sprinting is also much less in an U18, than a Premier League game" (etc, etc)

All well and good Mark, and while easy to counter someone's opinion with such stats, by that logic Barkley would never get any game time in the Premier League. Nor would anyone who has recovered from injury or is making the step up from youth team football.

All of which only deflects attention from GJ's original point regarding the Kenwrightian arrogance displayed in your "I know about this, you don't" remark.
Gavin Ramejkis
408   Posted 08/02/2012 at 18:48:47

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A quick question to throw into this love in from the usual suspects but in response to Doddy, surely the sending of Barkley out on loan if he has been held back to regain fitness and not risk further injury would expose him to risk of injury as another team would surely be playing him? The catch 22 of him not playing to remove the risk of injury gradually blurs into a nonsense.

I lived in Jersey in the Channel Isles for a few years and a friend of mine runs a classic car restoration place which stores some really nice motors for people. My friend Ian that runs the place regularly drives old classics as he says they are a car and meant to be driven, he has customer that buy exotics only to mothball them never to see the light of day which to both Ian and I was always a terrible thing to do to a piece of engineering which should be in use. I guess I see a footballer in the same way; if they aren't broken they need to play and even more so if the competition for the position they could potentially do a role are defenders out of position.
Niall Hussey
415   Posted 08/02/2012 at 20:00:54

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If Moyes is so worried about him making his mistakes in the first team, why not drop his boyfriend Cahill after a year in which he's scored once & touches the ball second-least of any other outfield player in the league, & play Barkley there instead of woefully out of position wide left (v Utd) or wide right (v Blackburn)?

Making his mistakes higher up the pitch with superb defensive cover in Jack & Felli, I'd hazard an inspired guess that he'd keep possession, at the barest of minimum, than Cahill & Saha offered for over a year without their positions ever coming under threat.
Dave Wilson
426   Posted 08/02/2012 at 20:30:00

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Andy Crooks #389.

On this thread alone Stephen Kenny has called one guys opinion "fucking laughable".

On more than one occasion he has told somebody they are talking bollocks.

He started one post with a "YAWN" and ended it by telling the guy he was "talking shite".

He called another guy a "bad joke" .

He stated that people who disagreed with him did so because they "revere Moyes".

and he called another guy my "pet dog" . . LOL.

Now I`m more than happy to go along with your suggestion that "he is perfectly entitled to give his take on it" - or "speculation" as he refers to it.

but shouldn't that privilege be afforded to everyone ? ?
Mark Stone
441   Posted 08/02/2012 at 21:22:10

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'Secondly, your well collected data, whilst impressive, is entirely irrelevant to me as we are not talking about the nations under 18s that you have studied or worked with, we are discussing one - Ross Barkley'

Not that it is of any relevance, but Barkley was involved in some of the games I have data from.

'A player we have seen play premiership football already'

Not arguing the point about whether or not Barkley is good enough to play in the premier league. I've seen him play and I think that he is (just my opinion)

' Stephen implied that if Ross played in two under 18 games and a reserve game, then he is fit enough to play in the premier league'

Well, I'm not saying he isn't, but I'm also saying that just being fit enough to play in an U18 game or two, and/or a premier league game, doesn't necessarily mean that you are necessarily fit enough to play in the premier league. I've pointed out why, and Stephen seems to agree.

'And I tend to agree (unless our youth team management are playing unfit players)'

No-one is saying they are 'unfit'. Fitness is all relative. I was fit enough to play 5-a-side but ask me to play a full game on Sat and I'd be blowing out my arse after 10 mins. What I am saying, is that the level of fitness demanded by the premier league far exceeds the demands of an U18 game. Are those players unfit? No, they have the attributes required to play U18 football, but not necessarily to play in the premier league. I'm talking about speed, impulse, agility, strength, the ability to resist fatigue etc. All of these things are hugely impaired after a three month injury.

'from that point, I am not wrong - it is an opinion on Ross Barkleys fitness'

No it's not, it's an observation about the physical demands of the two games. Regardless of who the player is, you need a greater level of fitness to play in the premier league than you do in the U18 games. Therefore being fit to play in the premier league doesn't equal being fit to play in the premier league. I've never said that Barkley wasn't fit enough to play in that game, just that being fit enough to play in the U18 game doesn't necessarily mean you are fit enough for the premiership. Stephen gets that, do you not?

Mark Stone
442   Posted 08/02/2012 at 21:45:00

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I'm also saying that just being fit enough to play in an U18 game or two, and/or a premier league game'

Should have read and or/a reserve team game
Mark Stone
450   Posted 08/02/2012 at 21:47:03

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'All well and good Mark, and while easy to counter someone's opinion with such stats, by that logic Barkley would never get any game time in the Premier League. Nor would anyone who has recovered from injury or is making the step up from youth team football'

It doesn't mean that at all! Where the hell does that come from??? Just because the physical demands of reserve team / U18 games is less than a premier league game doesn't mean that players can't reach the levels of fitness required to play in the premier league! Listen, when you detrain (ie during a three month injury) you lose speed, strength, agility etc etc. That is why when players return for preseason they are not as fit as they are when the season starts, and also why they play lots of practise/non competitive games to get themselves back to the level of fitness required to play in the premier league. Why do you think they have a pre-season? The requirement for these things is reduced in U18 (like in pre season games) games compared with premier league games, therefore as your fitness increases you become fit enough to meet the demands of an U18 game before you become fit enough to meet the demands of the premier league. I can't believe you are trying to argue the point on that (actually I can, sadly). I have never said I think it was the right or wrong to not play Barkley, I'm just saying that being fit enough to play in an U18 game does not automatically mean you are fit enough to play in the premier league. Just like how the level of fitness required to play against Bury in a Pre season game in early July, differs from the level of fitness required to play against to play against Man Utd in a competitive game during season.
Stephen Kenny
455   Posted 08/02/2012 at 22:30:56

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I was also called a numpty, idiot, told first I was talking bollocks, had my position misrepresented several times and a whole host of other things Dave.

I didn't start the name calling and if 'Fucking Laughable' or 'Bollocks' upsets your timid sensibilities I'm wondering how you manage to spend so much time down the pub with your millions of mates or at so many matches where people are more than forward with language and demeanor.
Mark Stone
457   Posted 08/02/2012 at 22:40:52

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'I was also called a numpty, idiot, told first I was talking bollocks, had my position misrepresented several times and a whole host of other things Dave.

I didn't start the name calling and if 'Fucking Laughable' or 'Bollocks' upsets your timid sensibilities I'm wondering how you manage to spend so much time down the pub with your millions of mates or at so many matches where people are more than forward with language and demeanour'

Stephen, I agree with this. I also read your post #382 and admire you for it. Listen, a lot of this argument has probably been about misinterpretation (I'm pretty sure Noel and GJ are misinterpreting my meaning of fitness (I.e speed, strength, agility etc) for 'extent of injury' (I.e still got a niggle) as I really don't think there is much to argue against. I got from your last post that it's a bit of a misunderstanding and we're probably not a million miles apart on our views. Like you, I'd love to see more of Barkley. Someone had a go at me before for the way I addressed you. You gave as good as you got, and if you are anything like me enjoyed the banter. I apologise if I offended, but somehow don't think I did. And if I saw you in the spellow I'd buy you a pint, get into a great debate and I'm sure we'd call each other a numpty several times!
Stephen Kenny
458   Posted 08/02/2012 at 22:52:01

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Mark,

I agree mate, no problem at all. I come on here for debate. I won't start moaning when I get one.

All the best

Ste
Graham Mockford
461   Posted 08/02/2012 at 22:52:24

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Stephen it is with a heavy heart I post this because I do realise you have completely no self awareness and if people keep prompting you, this thread could go on for years, I genuinely admire your undoubted stamina for a row.

However, I have to take exception at your post #455 where you claim that you didn't start the name calling. Please scroll up and read our exchanges, note your references to me as a) an arsehole b) a bad joke and c) a pet dog, if you can find any derogative phrase I used to describe you, you total cunt, let me know.
Kevin Hudson
466   Posted 08/02/2012 at 23:44:55

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Whoa..!!! Let me get this straight, Graham.

First you plead the case that Stephen has engaged in a spot of name-calling & directed some of it at you. Then intimate that YOU haven't lowered yourself to use any derogative phrases in return.

Before immediately wheeling out the Biggest Gun of the lot. By calling the man a "total cunt...?"

Are you for real..?!

Graham...this is a bit of knockabout fun, coloured by sarcasm, mockery & playful banter..but centred around intelligent dialogue in a subject close to all our hearts.

But, "TOTAL CUNT," - is completely off the charts in my opinion.

Fucks sake....
Dave Wilson
483   Posted 09/02/2012 at 05:44:05

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Stephen

I don't feel at any stage you have said a thing you would not have said in the alehouse.

I use these examples to demonstrate to A Crooks (and others)that you were giving as good as you got. I also used them to what I fet was my advantage during the debate.

I think name-calling over the internet is rather cowardly, but having had several debates with you, I don't think you have ever said anything you would not say in a face to face discussion.

I don't agree with a single word you have said here, but that's not the reason for this post.

Kevin

I suspect Graham #461 post was a joke.

I may be wrong but the "cunt" comment appeared to be a punch line. Trouble is, we don't all have your writing talent. If he comes back with an apology / explanation, I think I would be happy to debate with him in future. If not then we have to assume he was just being a coward.
Kevin Hudson
495   Posted 09/02/2012 at 09:33:44

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Dave,

I'm actually glad that someone else read it differently, and the benefit of the doubt must of course, sit with Graham.

My response stemmed from the fact that he originally typed it in one large block, with subsequent spacing & punctuation since retroactively added, making it now scan better.

Therefore, reassuring to know if it's actually ME who is the 'total cunt,' here for not recognising nuance & ironic intent, and gullibly jumping off at the deep-end :)

Mark Wilson
505   Posted 09/02/2012 at 10:19:55

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And there was me thinking this was more fun than a Blue Union debate and yes, more civilised. How wrong can you be ! Since this all started the England manager has thrown his toys out of the pram, good style, Velios may or may be going out on loan, and there is STILL no sign of young protege Ross getting playing time. All in all it's another couple of days we won't get back but for that still a jolly good read.
Cheers, Mark (RustyMan)
Graham Mockford
507   Posted 09/02/2012 at 10:47:38

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It was meant to be ironic, if it came across as anything else I apologise to Stephen unreservedly.
Kevin Hudson
510   Posted 09/02/2012 at 11:01:53

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The apology should come from me Graham. My mistake.
Roman Sidey
511   Posted 09/02/2012 at 11:10:41

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Graham, that line made me nearly piss myself. Then to see Kevin up on his high horse getting upset about it made it even funnier. Cheers lads.
Kevin Hudson
513   Posted 09/02/2012 at 11:27:36

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The horse is back in the stable Roman :)
Roman Sidey
514   Posted 09/02/2012 at 11:35:28

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Glad you're seeing the humour behind the comments now, Kevin.
Dave Lynch
516   Posted 09/02/2012 at 12:04:08

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Takes a man to apologise on an open forum.

Capped doffed Mr Hudson.

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