Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Would we have been better off with Lerner?
33 Comments: It`s an old chestnut on Toffeeweb that Everton 'missed out' by showing no interest when Randy Lerner came shopping for a Premier League Club. No-one (apart from Kenwright & Co) knows the truth about that but news this week that, from next to nothing, when Ellis sold out, Aston Villa`s debts now exceed those of Everton.
Now I have to admit that I always looked longingly at Villa and its business-like owners and even when Lerner let Martin O'Neill go and replaced him with Houllier, I still was mighty impressed when he forked out £20M for Bent.
But now it`s gone horribly wrong as first that Frenchman and then, McLeish, a very poor shadow of our David Moyes, have supervised Villa`s slide down the table to a point where they just might get caught up in the relegation battle.
I raise this issue, not to provoke yet another debate on how Blue Bill has failed us ? that`s been done to death under the Quinn Investments heading ? but more to discuss what impact a wealthy owner can possibly have if the manager(s) he chooses sign the wrong players and burn up his fortune.
It would seem that Kenwright's only saving grace, nay, saviour is his choice of a manager who was able to manage within the owner`s very limited means! No doubt, Lerner would have thrown money at the manager who he would have changed several times...
Doesn`t this indicate that, whoever takes over a club,it`s the manager who makes or breaks him?
Richard Dodd, Posted 29/02/2012 at 09:42:10
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I certainly don't want Kenwright here but Villa aren't much better off than us, they have big debts and pay silly wages but they do have bigger revenue streams and Lerner can service the debts better than we can.
I would have Lerner over BK, but I'd want some sound financial heads running the money side so that we werent paying very average players enormous wages!
I would have Lerner over BK, but I'd want some sound financial heads running the money side so that we werent paying very average players enormous wages!
Correct me if wrong...
But hasn't Lerner fucked Villa over? Under O'Neill they were as good as us and challenging us for Europe, we had some great games against them. Out went Barry, Milner, Downing and Young for close to £100M.
They brought in Bent only to try and preserve Premier League status, still a poor return and so much so that O'Neill walked prior to this.
I'm certainly not announcing support for Kenwright but, upon speaking to Villa fans, they are as pissed off, so we are not unique
But hasn't Lerner fucked Villa over? Under O'Neill they were as good as us and challenging us for Europe, we had some great games against them. Out went Barry, Milner, Downing and Young for close to £100M.
They brought in Bent only to try and preserve Premier League status, still a poor return and so much so that O'Neill walked prior to this.
I'm certainly not announcing support for Kenwright but, upon speaking to Villa fans, they are as pissed off, so we are not unique
We would have kept all the good players we've sold, and replaced our fading ones with new. May have even got a 4th spot, or at least kept us competitive for 5th place each season.
I don't think the manage makes or breaks a chairman as he has the authority to sack him and find someone new. But if Lerner knew anything he should have kept O'Neill on board as he's up with the best, bar Ferguson and Wenger.
I don't think the manage makes or breaks a chairman as he has the authority to sack him and find someone new. But if Lerner knew anything he should have kept O'Neill on board as he's up with the best, bar Ferguson and Wenger.
A manager is only as good as his last result. In general, I think if you asked any manager, they wouldn't expect to be at the club 3-5 years after appointment.
The board have to be realistic. If we had an Abramovich that had spent zillions getting the players together and it went tits up, then yes, the manager can be expecting "the call" to piss off... If it's a Kenwright who has put fuck all into the club, then whoever is the manager can expect "the call" to say "Well done, keep it up."
Certainly Lerner is limited as opposed to Abramovich and the Sheik of Citeee. We don't need a zillionaire ? just someone who's not a halfwit with no business brain. Someone who can slowly put together a plan that gives Moyes "something" each year to spend and at the same time develop Goodison Park.
The board have to be realistic. If we had an Abramovich that had spent zillions getting the players together and it went tits up, then yes, the manager can be expecting "the call" to piss off... If it's a Kenwright who has put fuck all into the club, then whoever is the manager can expect "the call" to say "Well done, keep it up."
Certainly Lerner is limited as opposed to Abramovich and the Sheik of Citeee. We don't need a zillionaire ? just someone who's not a halfwit with no business brain. Someone who can slowly put together a plan that gives Moyes "something" each year to spend and at the same time develop Goodison Park.
Well you can bet your life he wouldn't have fucked up the King's Dock opportunity.
Richard. Sorry to hog the thread. But a new owner with limited funds would and should not have to throw all his dosh at someone like Moyes.
Depending of course on the sale price a new owner at this present time when raw material and labour costs are good could spend a relatively small amount on redevelopment. The Park End being the obvious choice, possibly followed by the Bullens Rd incorporating it being the main stand.
Hibs up in Edinburgh rearranged their end-of-season last 2 home games and, I think, their first 2 of the following season, to put in a whole new side of the ground. The board gave their reasoning that they had previously redeveloped the other 3 sides and as costs were so low they would have been daft not to take advantage of doing their last side.
Moyes has kept Kenwright in a job and a new forward-thinking owner could achieve a lot without the mega millions some on here would like us to think is a prerequisite.
Depending of course on the sale price a new owner at this present time when raw material and labour costs are good could spend a relatively small amount on redevelopment. The Park End being the obvious choice, possibly followed by the Bullens Rd incorporating it being the main stand.
Hibs up in Edinburgh rearranged their end-of-season last 2 home games and, I think, their first 2 of the following season, to put in a whole new side of the ground. The board gave their reasoning that they had previously redeveloped the other 3 sides and as costs were so low they would have been daft not to take advantage of doing their last side.
Moyes has kept Kenwright in a job and a new forward-thinking owner could achieve a lot without the mega millions some on here would like us to think is a prerequisite.
Villa are the perfect counterpart to compare Everton with and the only thing that comes out of this comparison is how good David Moyes is/was. Villa hired O'Neill (who quite a few people considered to be better than Moyes when he moved to Sunderland) and invested a lot of money in players like Young, Downing, Petrov, Heskey, Luke Young, Cuellar, Habib Beye. Where did it get them? A great manager and all this investment? Nowhere.
In fact, since O'Neill managed them up until now, they've done worse than us, I think they only finished ahead of us once in that period depsite all their money. Moyes on the other hand had relatively little to spend and did not have good players at the club already like Barry. The right manager has to go with the right owner.
In fact, since O'Neill managed them up until now, they've done worse than us, I think they only finished ahead of us once in that period depsite all their money. Moyes on the other hand had relatively little to spend and did not have good players at the club already like Barry. The right manager has to go with the right owner.
You could say that, had Lerner taken us over, he would not have had that huge initial outlay to make, as our squad was much stronger. As this splurge is to blame for Villa's current state, I think he probably would have made a better job of it with us.
So is the conclusion that Moyes and Lerner would make a better combo than O'Neill and Kenwright? Probably go with that.
Easy one, that, Doddy ? Lerner all day long.
He has invested in the future of Aston Villa. Unlike our chairman who hasn't invested in us.
Phil McKeown 614 - where do you reckon a £100M could've got us a few years ago, around 2009-10? Now there's a thought...
He has invested in the future of Aston Villa. Unlike our chairman who hasn't invested in us.
Phil McKeown 614 - where do you reckon a £100M could've got us a few years ago, around 2009-10? Now there's a thought...
Neither if possible both have shafted the club they have been entrusted to. What has gone on at villa is a complete shambles. O'Neill knew it and walked with dignity. Kenwright is a buffoon and an embarrassment but above all he is simply an incompetent. We are poorly run business wise and only Moyes has kept us afloat for so long. That plus the Rooney and Lescott money.
That's the thing though, Lerner hasn't invested the £100M so I don't see how he could be an attractive proposition .
So my answer to Shaun (631) is that if it was Lerner in charge we wouldn't have got it, god knows how much we would have got with Kenwright, enough to take us forward into the top 4, we will never know.
Lerner, he is ruining Villa.
So my answer to Shaun (631) is that if it was Lerner in charge we wouldn't have got it, god knows how much we would have got with Kenwright, enough to take us forward into the top 4, we will never know.
Lerner, he is ruining Villa.
At least if Moyes had the £100m and kept buying defenders there could be no more excuses.....
Could there?
Please, please..... tell me nobody could come up with yet another fuckin' excuse.
Could there?
Please, please..... tell me nobody could come up with yet another fuckin' excuse.
But he doesnt and he hasn't, Barry.
But if he ever does . . . .
But if he ever does . . . .
I know Dave....
Still, he's doing alright at the moment that'll do for me.
Still, he's doing alright at the moment that'll do for me.
Villa have constantly sold their supposed best players i.e. Milner, Barry, Young etc. On reflection I think we probably dodged a bullet with Randy Lerner. If he'd have fallen out with David Moyes he'd have appointed Rafa Benitez as the replacement!
On the face of it Lerner seems to be a decent chairman and has spent big money recently on Bent and N'Zogbia, £30m ish on two players.
However, during his tenure Villa have seen the departure of Young, Milner, Barry, Downing (a possible England midfield there) Cahill, Friedel. They have declined from regular top 5-7 to mediocre. I suppose the same could be said of us.
However, during his tenure Villa have seen the departure of Young, Milner, Barry, Downing (a possible England midfield there) Cahill, Friedel. They have declined from regular top 5-7 to mediocre. I suppose the same could be said of us.
The same could be said of us to a certain extent Danny but Randy HAS got a pot to piss in.
We are only four points ahead of them ffs!!
A disingenious post best described as 'better the devil you know' which we have come to expect from you Richard.
"No doubt, Lerner would have thrown money at the manager who he would have changed several times... " So you're saying that Lerner would have sacked Moyes?
Villa's problems stem from O'Neill's profligate spending. Lerner's money with Moyes in charge would have allowed us to build the team, maybe even around that schoolkid Rooney we used to have playing for us. Certainly when we needed it for the CL games and afterwards and we'd have no worries about now having to sell off our assets (Rodwell, Baines, etc.) to pay off the banks.
"No doubt, Lerner would have thrown money at the manager who he would have changed several times... " So you're saying that Lerner would have sacked Moyes?
Villa's problems stem from O'Neill's profligate spending. Lerner's money with Moyes in charge would have allowed us to build the team, maybe even around that schoolkid Rooney we used to have playing for us. Certainly when we needed it for the CL games and afterwards and we'd have no worries about now having to sell off our assets (Rodwell, Baines, etc.) to pay off the banks.
Yeah, the jewish american gangster fires a decent manager who asked for funding, and replaces him with the local rivals' flop. The club are in £53m worth of debt and could be the next to go into admin. He probably never heard of AV before but thought it was a good way of laundering money, ala Abramovich. I know BK is skint but at least his heart is in the club
Mick, more a case of O'Neill spitting his dummy because he wasn't going to be given any more funds because he'd wasted what he'd been given on overpaid dross.
Benitez Mk II in other words.
Benitez Mk II in other words.
Mick Davies,
What's the relevance of his nationality and religion?
What's the relevance of his nationality and religion?
You may as well ask " Who fucked up the most, Sir Fred Goodwin or James Murdoch."
It's all about servicable debt, and a business plan with a long term vision. We are looking at sales on a daily basis to see if we can pay our loans. Goodison Park is crumbling and we do not have any funds for players unless we sell.
Why didn't you compare us to Sunderland?
It's all about servicable debt, and a business plan with a long term vision. We are looking at sales on a daily basis to see if we can pay our loans. Goodison Park is crumbling and we do not have any funds for players unless we sell.
Why didn't you compare us to Sunderland?
^Because Sunderland's debt isn't currently in the news so Richard didn't have a ready made reference for his 'careful what you wish for' post.
Barry and Milner jumped onto the Man City gravy train and Young went to Man Utd. It doesn't matter how good or bad your Chairman/Manager is, you just can't stop moves like that happening in modern day football.
As for Downing, RS offered £20m for him (still can't say that without having a little chuckle), would you turn that down?
If you include Cahill, Villa made somewhere in the region of £60m profit on these transfer fees. They then spent some on Bent etc to reinforce the squad and brought through some very good youngsters which left a sizeable amount of cash in the bank and probably a reduced wage bill. Sounds like a reasonable business plan to me, all they need is a decent manager and they may well be in a very good place to move forwards.
As for Downing, RS offered £20m for him (still can't say that without having a little chuckle), would you turn that down?
If you include Cahill, Villa made somewhere in the region of £60m profit on these transfer fees. They then spent some on Bent etc to reinforce the squad and brought through some very good youngsters which left a sizeable amount of cash in the bank and probably a reduced wage bill. Sounds like a reasonable business plan to me, all they need is a decent manager and they may well be in a very good place to move forwards.
The David Moyes of that time would have made us a champions league side with the money Lerner has spent.
Plus despite our results against them, we were and are a far better side.
Plus despite our results against them, we were and are a far better side.
Villa goes nowhere near the Top under Lerner. Look up Lerner's Cleveland Browns in the NFL, where money is no hardship for every single owner.
The Browns have sucked over the last 10-15 years and will continue to into the future. Because of Lerner. He's a lousy owner over here and seeing Villa going nowhere over there shocks no American fan once you tell them the Browns' owner owns Villa.
COYB
Kenwright OUT! (But not Lerner in, God help us).
The Browns have sucked over the last 10-15 years and will continue to into the future. Because of Lerner. He's a lousy owner over here and seeing Villa going nowhere over there shocks no American fan once you tell them the Browns' owner owns Villa.
COYB
Kenwright OUT! (But not Lerner in, God help us).
OK, Andrew, so how the fuck have they blown £110M in three years? `Other Opperating Costs`?
Andrew Ellams @ 747 says: "If you include Cahill, Villa made somewhere in the region of £60m profit on these transfer fees. They then spent some on Bent etc to reinforce the squad and brought through some very good youngsters which left a sizeable amount of cash in the bank and probably a reduced wage bill. Sounds like a reasonable business plan to me".
Well, the club announced losses of £50plus this week and there's a protest planned by fans to get rid of Lerner, so if his business plan is so reasonable, then why are so many Villa fans being 'unreasonable'?
Well, the club announced losses of £50plus this week and there's a protest planned by fans to get rid of Lerner, so if his business plan is so reasonable, then why are so many Villa fans being 'unreasonable'?
Sorry. That's obviously £50mplus
According to the Telegraph chief sports reporter on twitter there's a quote in the Villa accounts saying 'The directors have received confirmation that the owner intends to support the group for at least one year'.
Make of that what you will, but it wouldn't fill me with confidence if I was a Villa fan.
I wonder if there's debate on their site wishing they had BK!?!
Make of that what you will, but it wouldn't fill me with confidence if I was a Villa fan.
I wonder if there's debate on their site wishing they had BK!?!
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611 Posted 29/02/2012 at 15:07:44
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Lerner or Kenwright? ? No contest. Has to be the Yank. At least he had the pot even if he`s pissed it to overflowing!