Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

A Critic?s Reciprocation

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Last week?s article ?To All Moyes Critics? was a cracker, and racked up more responses than I?ve seen on an article in my time. It was good discussion, and, as an ardent MOB member, I had a feeling that, come today (Wednesday), I?d be eating my words after Moyes finally came good on his 10 years of ?away? failure.

So, after what will forever be known as "THAT derby" when regarding Moyes, fans are, for once, mostly united in their disappointment in the manager.

My point and question is a twist on one from an earlier post this season: At what point do you change your stance on his tenure?

For me, the FA Cup Ffinal and summer that followed was my watershed period for Moyes, as I began to see a man who I thought was tactically unadventurous, and unwilling to see when a player needed to be sold ? something that directly affected last night?s game.

In the time since, I still do acknowledge that Moyes improved the club on a shoestring budget, and had a knack for winning games against the odds ? strangely Aston Villa holds the longest undefeated streak against us of all the teams that have been in the league for more than this season.

The twist on this question is this: despite admiring his ?achievements? in the past 10 years, can you forgive the man for the damage he has just done in just one short night?

Viewing the microcosm of the team selections, it would have been disappointing at worst ? for the record, I was upset, but by no means surprised at what he did. However, when you take into consideration his statements earlier in the week regarding the injured players coming back being part of the reason we struggled earlier in the season, it just reeks of stupidity ? I was one of the silly buggers who fell for it too, and the post is there to prove it, fairly early on in the thread.

So, once again, regardless of your status as a Moyes supporter, or if you?re part of the MOB, is what he did last night forgivable?

Roman Sidey, Australia     Posted 14/03/2012 at 11:55:49

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Phil Rodgers
782   Posted 14/03/2012 at 13:57:05

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I don't think so Roman. Its the lack of care for the supporters that does it for me. From what I have read on other posts he has lost a lot of his supporters.
Matt Traynor
784   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:04:58

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I don't know what it is. Having played in a Glasgow derby you'd think he'd know what it means, but to see the formation/surrender before the match, and his abject dismissal of the importance of the game afterwards beggars belief. Benitez was onto something - we are a small club, we certainly behave like one.
Kevin Tully
787   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:07:54

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As Eugene Ruane rightly pointed out - we have got the manager we deserve.

Too many fans happy with mid-table & boring football.

Why else is he still here after 10 years ? Many supporters are happy we have stayed in the league. The bar is set low in the first place.

Every supporter of Moyes keeps us firmly in our place.

Nick Entwistle
796   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:29:35

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Its unforgivable, but doesn't mean I want him out.
Stephen Leary
798   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:29:32

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Exactly ? we have a manager we deserve some fucking morons on here that I know love the man and what he's achieved blah blah ... what has he achieved?

To do that to us last night is a disgrace to the badge, to the club, to US the fans ? the most important people of the club. I was so confident ahead of Saturday's game but now I don't think we will win, and if that's the case, I want him out at 3pm Saturday. Why stick around any longer? What will we do under him now?
Jamie Barlow
803   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:38:07

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I'd forgive him if we beat Liverpool in the semi or final.

If we beat Sunderland.
Stephen Kenny
806   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:38:56

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More than the team selection or anything his comments about the game and his attitude towards the history of our club and the importance of this game means he has to go.

He clearly believes we've got no right to expect to beat or finish above the shite. That's not something an Everton manager should ever think.

We need a lion not a mouse.
Phil Bellis
811   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:46:53

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Fair enough Nick
You'll just give him a round of applause on Saturday, then?
Tony Cheek
813   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:45:12

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Unforgivable... the point is Roman, would either of the managers field a weakened side in the "old firm" clash, or would either of the managers in "el classico" do the same, or even the Newcastle v Sunderland game.

Of course not! Why, because they know how much this means to the fans, and more importantly that they would have been called in to the Chairmans office and would have to explain what the fuck was going on...

But not our Davey, you can just imagine him and Bill sharing a whiskey and celebrating 3 points in two games. Is there no bleeding quality control at Everton?
Robbie Muldoon
815   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:33:28

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It seems to me that the majority of people willing to openly criticise David Moyes are generally the well educated, independent thinking types.

In general, I find that if you speak to a lad (or woman) who follow Everton home and away, they stick to a mob mentality of never saying a bad word about Moyes. I love the way these blues follow us everywhere, they are boss supporters, I just find it is usually that type who won't say a word about Moyes.
Paul Columb
820   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:58:41

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People's Club....blah...blah.

After 10 years, how is it possible to miss the boat on what the derby means to Evertonians? And I'm not talking about just getting the result... that's Kopites' territory. Having balls, tactical nouse, setting up a side frothing at mouth to play for the badge on derby day.

Evertonians will judge on effort and forgive the result if it was forthcoming. We got neither yesterday.... and then to have our faces mashed in it with the post-match roll over.

What a mighty kick in the balls to stall any feelgood factor kick-started by the Spurs result. I'll not set myself up for a gut punch by watching another derby while DM's at the helm.
John Gee
827   Posted 14/03/2012 at 14:54:35

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We're playing 3 games in a week and had players who were fit to come into the team. Moyse did and should have freshened up the team. It's idle speculation to assume that we would have won with a different selection. Should we have started with Drenthe (gave away 3rd goal)? Hetinga (long history of getting sent off in tasty games)? Left out Hibbert (skinned their left back a few times)? Played Jelli from the start (just back from injuries and play him 3 times in a week)? Not brought back Piennar (consistent performer)?

Anichebe was Moyes's only mistake the rest was just one of those games. We gave the ball away for the 3rd, a clearance falls perfectly to their best player for the first and the second was shit defending.
Don't forget as well, Liverpool played the man, not the ball at every opportunity and the referee did fuck all about it. The deck was stacked against us again and nothing we would have done would have put 3 points in our hands. It may have been 0-3 but if that scoreline had've been closer with 15 mins left on the clock then we would have seen at least one red card. Idle speculation on my part but I could see that coming.
Phil Bellis
843   Posted 14/03/2012 at 15:41:05

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Oh right, John...

Just unlucky.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
Chris Verghoden
847   Posted 14/03/2012 at 15:52:34

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John Gee..Interesting you are critical Drenthe for giving away the 3rd goal. The consistent Pienaar was partly responsible for the first and definitely the second.
John Keating
848   Posted 14/03/2012 at 15:47:44

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John.

Now this is only my opinion but..... what a load of absolute shite!! But then maybe you're right, maybe 99% of Everton supporters are wrong. Maybe we were just unlucky and it wasn't Moyes' team selection that fucked us up. In your opinion, Phil Dowd should join the list of Atkinson and Clattenburg.

Yes you're right the team put out last night was brilliant cos we only lost 3 fucking 0 against our biggest rivals and have to put up with slagging forever by the scum.

Three games in a week for one fucking week of the season ? well the RS have to manage that too, don't they?
James Morgan
849   Posted 14/03/2012 at 15:36:28

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John Gee,
A deep sigh and shake of the head. Enough said.

Looking to the FA Cup. IF we beat the Mackems and get the shite in the semi or even the final, does anybody really think we will exact some sort of poetic revenge on the path to glory?
Not a chance! The cowardly bottler will wither like a sun dried prune under the pressure.
He is a bang average, overrated manager with severe limits and zero cut throat ability.
Reminds me of the old joke, "How do you kill off a circus?...Go for the juggler!"

Kevin Sparke
853   Posted 14/03/2012 at 16:11:58

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He got it wrong big time last night ? but just to balance things out a bit (and stir the shit):

In the 10 years Moyes has been in charge of Everton only 4 teams Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool ? have accumulated more league points.

In the last 5 full seasons only those 4 clubs have conceded fewer goals.

In the last 5 full seasons only those 4 clubs plus Spurs, just, have scored more goals than Everton.

Everton't total gross spend is £114m in the last 10 years. The 10th highest.

Everton's net spend in 10 years is £15m. The 14th highest.

So, overall he's not done too bad. Though, last night's debacle has to be laid squarely at his door.
Danny Broderick
854   Posted 14/03/2012 at 16:10:30

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John,

He could have rested a couple of players...but 6? 3 of those players he brought in (Jagielka, Rodwell and Anichebe) have barely played lately. Why would you play all of these players, with a lack of match practice, in a game as demanding as the derby?

The only logical reason was to keep his big guns fresh for the weekend. But the way the match went, we have now lost all our momentum going into that game.

If we don't win on Saturday, this will have been a catastrophic week, at a time when we had some real momentum behind us. If only he had picked a slightly better team. We could have been going into this game on the back of a spirited performance at Anfield (and maybe a point or 3)?

The pressure is all on us on Saturday instead.
Brian Waring
858   Posted 14/03/2012 at 16:37:41

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John, are you saying it was the refs fault we lost, and no matter what we would have tried, we wouldn't have got the 3 pts, because the ref would have made sure of it?

By the way, I thought the ref had a good game.
Barry Rathbone
867   Posted 14/03/2012 at 16:47:24

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Kevin Spark

Time to use your eyes mate.

These stats really mean we're existing and stuff like last night (and many others) should be taken with a phlegmatic shrug.

10 years man.....those koppite bastards were pissing themselves chanting "10 years".

The idea is hitting home we have the club and manager we deserve and regurgitating these stats is part and parcel.
Nelly Verdonghan
878   Posted 14/03/2012 at 17:20:47

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John...you're talking utter tosh mate !!
Dave Wilson
885   Posted 14/03/2012 at 17:03:47

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Roman

I mean no disrepect, we all start supporting Everton at some point, but you are realatively new to this.
Trust me when I tell you, this will never be known as THAT Derby. It doesnt even register on the list of derby disasters.

Our finest team was beaten, 0-3 at home by them on route to winning the title.

Our finest ever manager suffered a 0-5 reverse after gambling with an untried center back.

We went through a spell in the seventies when our players seemed to score more than theirs did ... in our goal.

Then there was the most painful of the lot in 86.

Do you think the Man United supporters thought they would get over City putting six past them on their own midden?

You`re hurting now, but you`ll we`ll get over it, we have to.

If we beat Sunderland, 50-60 thousand Evertonians will be clamouring for tickets and won't give last night a second thought.

Not what Moyes`s critics want to hear I know, but that's how it works, that's how it`s always worked.
Ray Roche
896   Posted 14/03/2012 at 17:52:49

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Brian Waring.
I agree, I thought the ref had a decent game, especially when compared to some of the gobshite's we've had to put up with in previous Derby's.
I don't even need to name them, we all know who they are.
Noel Lynam
954   Posted 14/03/2012 at 18:57:58

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Last night's team selection was, at best, a gross misjudgement on Moyes' part. His post match Sky interview to me, was nothing short of a disgrace. Self-serving, desperate, defeatist and an insult to Evertonians everywhere.

To attempt to justify his actions, which were footballing suicide, by stating he would have taken two draws from the last two games but got three, showed to me that he is more than happy to have Everton portrayed as plucky minnows battling against the odds, in order to enhance his own reputation.

His body language in that interview when questioned made me think he was starting to realise his cock-up and essentially trying to cover his arse. The reasoning that Liverpool also rested players three days previously, was clutching at straws.

If Heitinga was rested, then why not the older Distin? And why was Drenthe rested, when he only played 60 odd mins on Saturday? I'll tell you why - because Moyes essentially used last night as match practice for Jagielka and Anichebe.

One manager knew the importance of a result last night in the context of the two teams' recent form and in the eyes of the fans. It wasn't Moyes.

Moyes knew what he was doing ten years ago when appealing to the masses with his populist "People's Club" quote. Last night indicated that after ten years, he doesn't understand the impact of his actions on those people. The crowd reaction if we lose on Saturday will be interesting. For me, nothing short of winning the FA Cup can vindicate this.
Andy Callan
961   Posted 14/03/2012 at 19:45:30

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It'll be forgiveable if we win on Saturday, simple as that mate isn't it?

If we get beat then he'll look like a complete twat.

I think he's put lots of pressure on himself and the team by playing half a team and chuckin' the towel in... However if we win it'll all look marvellous again.

Just relax everyone...

Could be worse, we could be Rangers.
Andy Crooks
980   Posted 14/03/2012 at 19:54:32

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Dave Wilson, that is not how it works, not this time. You seem to accept that a win on Saturday will wipe this one out. It shouldn't. The last week has more or less summed up the Moyes's reign. A build up of expectation followed ultimately by failure.

Frankly Dave, I know that last night hurt you as much as any Evertonian and your stoicism fools no one. Toffeeweb is by and large divided between those who acknowledge Moyes's failures but believe he is still the best man for the job and those who recognize his achievements but believe it is time for a change.

After last night I genuinely hoped that there would be some unity among Evertonians in agreeing the Moyes and his players got it badly wrong. Many of us like to maintain the illusion that coaches and players are more than employees of the club. When, on rare occasions like last night, it becomes glaringly obvious that that is not the case then supporters are entitled to what has ridiculously been referred to as a knee jerk reaction.

Would you not agree that, to succeed, Everton must play their strongest team and that they must play well? Do you believe our strongest line-up could have won last night? Do you not think we were entitled to see our strongest line-up last night?

There was, in my view, an un-Moyes-like arrogance in the approach to this game. Maybe the plaudits of the weekend have made him believe that his team selection will justify itself because he is now a great and admired coach. Last night was indefensible and I have enough respect for his supporters to believe they will not accept that.
Ben Jones
989   Posted 14/03/2012 at 20:30:19

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As the writer of that cracker of the article (thanks Roman), I was pretty disgusted by that performance. That certainly is the worst Derby performance of my life time. Moyes did a mistake and there ain't much I can defend about it.

I don't think beating Sunderland will make up for it, I think either beating Liverpool in the competition or winning it will make up for it.

If we don't beat Sunderland, that gamble is gonna look terrible.

However, in my eyes, we should still batter Sunderland. I would of course not sack Moyes for it either.
Robbie Muldoon
010   Posted 14/03/2012 at 21:06:01

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10 years, and its time to go.
Richard Reeves
029   Posted 14/03/2012 at 21:45:45

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I don't want Moyes to say sorry,I just want him to go.
In years to come these will be seen as the glory years of David Moyes.
Roman Sidey
093   Posted 15/03/2012 at 01:27:54

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Dave, I understand what you're saying about other derbies, and, yes, I've only been supporting the club 10 years, but that is why I wrote it like this:

"after what will forever be known as "THAT derby" when regarding Moyes".

In terms of his tenure, that will be the derby that Evertonians will remember him by.
Peter Barry
108   Posted 15/03/2012 at 07:01:42

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We are EVERTON supporters ? NOT Moyes ACOLYTES. We want what is best for EVERTON and that is why we criticise Dire Dour Defensive Davey Boy.
Dave Wilson
119   Posted 15/03/2012 at 08:04:45

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Andy Crooks

This week has been torture. but I`ve lost count of the number of defeats I have felt I would never get over - nearly all to the shite - but you have to, nobody gives you an option.

Its great to have a history. When the missus goes out with those hideously scary creatures she refers to as "The Girls" I like nothing more than to settle down with me Everton DVD`S and a bottle of Jim Beam.
But in football its today and tomorrow that count. thats just the way it is, soon Tuesdays game will be down as just another Derby disaster, sure people who want to criticise Moyes will refer back to it for a years or so - if he`s still here -
But who`s to say things would have been different without the changes ? wouldnt the players who made the mistakes for the goals have been in everyones team ?

Goodison is sold out on Sunday and if we win it will be sold out a couple of days later too.

Tuesday was painful Roman, but if Evertonians hadnt learned how to deal with painful and unessasary defeats most of us wouldnt be able to get out of bed in the morning.

Moyes is a hired hand, he`ll be gone soon enough.
Worra ya gonna do ?

Derek Thomas
120   Posted 15/03/2012 at 07:37:02

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In my eyes Moyes has now, with one team selection and attitude, formed the opposite of the ' Holy Trinity ' ' The Un-Holy Trinity' Johnson, Kenwright, Moyes and it's hard to tell who is the anti-christ, my bet is Kenwright who has 8781 stamped in his head.

We've not got used to it so much as resigned to having it worked on us by the slings and arrows etc etc reffs the whole they've sold their souls to the devil ( late 1969 cue the start of their jammyness with Sandy's own goal )

But to roll over and play grab ankle without benefit of vaseline courtesy of suppossedly one of our own.

No wonder we're bitter.

Well he can fuck off to Spurs or just plain fuck off. Even if he pastes the shite by a cricket score in the most onesided Final in living memory He will still only ever be at breakeven point for me, I've not been his biggest fan since we finished 11th. ( Marsh-ite actually...Chickens home to roost there )

Thing is at one stage I thought he could be come the Blue Shankly and with the 50 mill Rooney money ( and while we're at it you can fuck off as well Kenwright ) spark a revolution....yeah right.

Time heals all wounds, well yes but 3 days into it is not time enough.

UNFORGIVABLE.
Dick Fearon
133   Posted 15/03/2012 at 09:42:12

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Ah' sod it, I was about to give half dozen reasons why the traitorous coward should pack his bags but what's the use? We know that, when the chips are down in a future must-win game, that yellow streak will come to the fore.
Ben Jones
199   Posted 15/03/2012 at 13:58:40

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Traitorous coward? Bloody hell. It's always toffeewebbers that think of the most creative insults.
Jamie Barlow
209   Posted 15/03/2012 at 14:16:31

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"There was, in my view, an un-Moyes-like arrogance in the approach to this game."

I seen it different, Andy; I thought he looked and felt embarrased at all the "10 years" bullshit that kept being thrown at him.

"In terms of his tenure, that will be the derby that Evertonians will remember him by."

Not this Evertonian, Roman, I'd much rather remember the 3-0 win at Goodison and the red shite fan sat on his own surrounded by cheering blues.
Chris Stewart
216   Posted 15/03/2012 at 15:15:28

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@ Dave Wilson "Goodison is sold out on Sunday"

I guess they prefer that than watching the game on Saturday then ;-)
Roman Sidey
400   Posted 16/03/2012 at 06:33:17

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Fair enough Jamie, I remember that derby with a great fondness, as we embarrassed them that day. But I have never seen a manager show such little regard for a local derby as Moyes did on Tuesday night. For me, and I think many others, no matter what Moyes goes on to achieve (or not achieve in the likely case), this one will surface whenever he takes us to Anfield (hopefully that is never again).

I also haven't seen Moyes the way you have this week. You say he seems embarrassed by all this 10 year stuff. I've actually seen the opposite. You only have to look at his post match interview to see how self centred he has seemed about it: "I have got three points out of two games."

If Tuesday night wasn't arrogant, I think we can erase that word from the dictionary.

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