Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Martinez the next Everton manager?

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Whether Wigan get relegated or not Martinez has got to be worth thinking about as our next manager. His philosphy is there for all the world to see.

He goes for the win! He's beaten both Liverpool and Arsenal away this season, something Moyes hasn't achieved in 10 years! It's more than Moyes had done when we took a chance on him 10 years ago!

We know we aren't going to get a Hiddink or Mourinho so we have to look at lesser managers who have potential. It's what we've always done!

We've always given our managers time but the amount of time we've given Moyes is incredible given the fact he's bottled every big game of his tenure. He's had more than enough chances, more than enough money (especially in his own pocket)! to build a team to play attractive football and win a cup!

He isn't capable, he's losing fans (3000 down on last season). What more evidence do people want?!
Tommy Gibbons, Not sitting on the fence     Posted 16/04/2012 at 21:57:05

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Tony Cawson
574   Posted 17/04/2012 at 06:27:27

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It's half time at the Emirates. As much as I''m trying to forget our horrible display at Wembley it's impossible to watch Wigan's approach and not think of our mindset.

1-0, Wigan attack, moving the ball at pace. 2-0, 2-1 still the same, could easy be 3-1.

OK, I know where they are in the league, and it is still odds on Arsenal will win, but will the Wigan fans go home zombied up and numb from boredom? Jesus Christ, it might even get them a result.

Martinez beat United and showed Liverpool the respect they deserve: none. If Arsenal get 7, Martinez can still use the first half as a positive next game, even if his players are a bunch of nobodies.

I vaguely remember Homer simpson giving fatherley advice to Bart: "If you can't do it son, then don't try.' Words far too close to home. I hope Moyes is watching this.

Matt Garen
578   Posted 17/04/2012 at 07:28:13

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I like Martinez. The way he got wigan to play when they were losing 8-0 to chelsea or 9-1 to spurs showed his philosophy and he has stuck by it. Or who could forget the number of completed passes by the central midfielders when they lost 8 games in a row earlier this season? You just knew he was going to turn it around. Lets get him in, hopefully that cultured player Gary caldwell follows him. What a cracking player he is.

Or we could get a grip.
Mark Dunford
580   Posted 17/04/2012 at 07:59:05

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Martinez seems to be the outstanding candidate to take the next big vacancy for a club like Everton. Excellent experience of premiership and has achieved much with a club who should have been relegated by now. It is time for him to move on as the prospect of Wigan doing more than staying up next year is not high. Rodgers and Lambert are also in the same frame as they've both exceeded expectations yet may face a tricky second season. Time to move on.

There is no vacancy at Goodison. The managerial merry go round will swing into action when Redknap leaves Spurs and Di Matteo almost certainly departs from Chelski. Any Champions League team will want someone with experience but there will be at least one vacancy at a moneyed club in Europa league. All speculation - as there is no vacancy anywhere, yet.
Jeremy Benson
582   Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:16:09

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Martinez has excellent experience of the premiership? Has achieved much with Wigan?

One word : Unbelievable.
Lee Smith
586   Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:16:12

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Yes Matt, because Moyes has never lost 7-0 or 6-1 has he....oh hang on......
Dan McKie
588   Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:24:41

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We need someone with bottle, which Moyes hasn't got. We need someone who will look at sundays game against Man U and think 'If we defend all game we will get beat, so lets go for it and attack', but Moyes wont do that. We need someone who will tell their players that they are more than good enough to beat anybody in this league, Moyes says 'knife to a gunfight'. This is what Everton fans are fed up with. We know Moyes will keep us in the premier league, but so did everyone before him, and that was when Everton weren't paying sky high wages, and never bought 15 million players, and when the manager wasnt earning 65k a week. Id rather get somebody new in and have some excitement about not knowing whats going to happen. With Moyes, we know exactly what will happen, and its dull as fuck.
Derek Thomas
590   Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:34:38

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Martinez;' wins against Man U and Arsenal count for nothing if we get relegated'.

No mention of the rs, dismissed out of hand, Martinez is already mentally trying the job on for size.
Liu Weixian
595   Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:41:43

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Martinez's wins against ManUre and the Shite will count for something if Everton are pushing for an European place.

These six points gained will also count for something if Everton are battling to avoid relegation.
Tony J Williams
601   Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:02:39

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A goal difference of minus 26, bring him on!!
Tony J Williams
602   Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:03:13

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"These six points gained will also count for something if Everton are battling to avoid relegation." - Eh?
Craig Walker
606   Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:06:13

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Moyes has finished above Martinez every season but I'd take the latter's philosophy any day of the week. Moyes has a better squad than Wigan but doesn't know how to use them. He instills fear into his Everotn players against better opposition.

Last year, Wigan were 2-0 down at home to West Ham and they were dead and buried. Martinez made a substitution and Wigan won the game 3-2. They then had to go to Stoke and win which was something they'd never done. They won pretty comfortably and stayed up.

Last night they went a goal up at the Emirates and then looked for (and got) a second goal. That's what won them the game.

Thanks for everything Dave. You've stabilised this club and put some pride back but it's time to adopt a footballing philosophy were a player's ability to retain possession is valued more than running and harrassing.
Nick Entwistle
607   Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:13:16

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Mmmmm yummy, flavour of the month... who will it be for May? Moyes?
Mark Dunford
609   Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:12:46

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Yes, Jeremy. Martinez has achieved much at Wigan and has excellent experience. It is a tiny club with next to no pedigree. The team now play decent football and have survived against the odds largely because the manager has shown craft and guile. Not winning the league or qualifying for Europe, but surviving against a bunch of bigger, wealthier teams who have dropped. Look at the Premiership table and teams struggling to get out of the Championship - most - West Ham, Birmingham, etc - bigger than Wigan and relegated. Wolves on way.

You need to be realistic about where Everton are and accept that we're far, far better off than we were before Moyes walked through door in 2002.
Scott Hamilton
623   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:02:50

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The most predictable thread ever! I was watching the match last night and new it was coming...

As Nick (607) says. In fact it's more like flavour of the week these days!

I can recall many other names being mentioned by TW's "experts" over previous years that aren't mentioned any more. Funny that...

I am not opposed to the idea of another manager taking the helm at Everton but only if it is the right person and at the right time. We're (magnificent) 7th FFS!
Scott Hamilton
625   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:08:07

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Obviously I meant "knew it was coming"
Jeremy Benson
632   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:13:15

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You're not wrong scott. After losing on saturday, the next manager to beat a top-4 side was always going to be a shoe-in for our next manager thread.

Embarassing!

God help us if blackburn beat chelsea to stay up, I can't suffer "kean for everton" posts.
Barry Rathbone
644   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:17:33

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Don't know why it upsets Moyes fans so much when someone like Martinez, Rodgers, Lambert even Holloway show not only can you defy the odds occasionally but do it without it being a snorefest.

Shouldn't it be celebrated?

Doesn't it provide hope?

To those saying Martinez is flavour of the month you clearly haven't been reading these pages for the last few seasons.

Anyone who thinks for themselves rather than regurgitating the lazy media stories or lives on malleable statistics can see Martinez has a vision and is brave enough to see it through.

As I said in another post it's unfortunate he's getting these results I was hoping he'd stay below the radar - not that Kenwright would have the vision to go for him in the first place.
Kevin Tully
645   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:13:33

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The bigger question is - Do we want change ?

Some people are happy in the same job for life, same routine, happy just to muddle along and are happy with their lot. Going through the motions. Nothing at all wrong with any of that. They are afraid of change, and new challenges change will present.

There are some though, who want to see what is around the corner, to break free from stagnation and staleness. I think Moyes is a good, pragmatic manager, who will get results. He will achieve results at any club - with the odd 4-0 thrown in when luck goes his way. He always tells us there is no money at Everton, we are underdogs. Well, if he has ambition, why doesn't he leave for bigger and better things. Maybe he realises he would be found out. He has found his level at Everton, and is the 12th highest paid manager in the world ! Add to that, no pressure in the most fickle of sports, of course he won't leave, would you ?

There will be many offers on the table for Moyes to manage on the big clubs if he is that good, we shall see.

Personally, I want to be entertained when I take my seat at Goodison, not sit through hours of turgid, unimaginative crap, and believe me, there has been plenty of that.

Whatever you think of Martinez, they are on the brink of relegation, and he went to the best footballing side in the League, played 4-3-3, and won.

Change can be good for the players, the outgoing manager ,the fans, and the club as a whole.

Why do people think we will be relegated if Moyes leaves, I have never been able to work that one out.

Look what Pardew has done at Newcastle, on a very similar budget to Mr. Moyes. Scoring for fun, playing three strikers at once from kick-off, not when we are a goal down with three minutes left.

10 years is enough, I couldn't take another 10.
Tony J Williams
655   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:39:53

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"Personally, I want to be entertained when I take my seat at Goodison" - I haven't been entertained at Goodison since the 80's Kevin, the rot set in well before Moyes' tenure.

"Whatever you think of Martinez, they are on the brink of relegation, and he went to the best footballing side in the League, played 4-3-3, and won" - Strange that, a team fighting for their Premiership life beating a better side....you never see that happen do you?

So because he has had a purple patch of games and won against Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal, the streak of 10 games - 4 points previous is forgotten because he raised his team to beat Arsenal...forget about the losses to Swansea, Man City, Everton, Spurs, Villa, Bolton, Newcastle, Fulham. Wolves. Arsenal, Man U, Sunderland, QPR, Chelsea and the defeats in the cup by Palace and Swindon?
Kevin Tully
658   Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:55:00

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Mt personal choice would be Bilic Tony, Croatia made England look like schoolboys and they say International football is the highest level in the game.
Ron Woodfine
683   Posted 17/04/2012 at 11:44:25

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I think Martinez would be a great choice given his philoshophy of playing attacking football. It would be a breath of fresh air compared to how we have been playing for the last 10 years and more. Yes, we might be exposed at the back a little more and take a few heavy defeats while transitioning to an attack-minded team... But, let's face it, where will we be in 3-5 years with Moyes at the helm?
Norman Merrill
687   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:11:39

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I wonder how many had heard, or knew of David Moyes, before Gordon Clegg brought him on the scene?
Paul David
688   Posted 17/04/2012 at 11:59:13

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I don't want Martinez as manager,not that i don't like him but I will always want a British manager.
Martinez keeping Wigan in the prem year after year is a bigger achievment than Everton being best of the rest under Moyes.
Then when you consider the different styles of play,you really do have to admire Martinez.
For the people defending Moyes let me ask you this.
How often does Moyes make you proud to be a blue? Or come away from Goodison thinking that was a great game of football.
Peter Laing
693   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:25:01

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I agree with your comments Paul # 688 regarding Martinez in terms of his obvious ethos for wanting his team's to try and play in particular way. It's obvious that without the financial resources at Swansea or Wigan that he cannot bring in the player's capable of playing the tika-tac footballing style of Spain or Barcelona, he does however demonstrate an understanding of its principles. The ethos at Barcelona is to keep possession, it plays to the strengths of the team and exposes the weaknesses of the opponent. The next generation of total football introduced at Ajax in the 1970's and developed at Barca by Cruyff. Even the likes of Bayern Munich are trying to copy the model with obvious success.

At Everton we are so one-dimensional, I can see why many are asking for the likes of a Pellegrino, Benitez or Martinez as we have turned full circle under Moyes and are becoming synonymous with an uninspiring brand of football from a bye-gone era. A different philosophy is undoubtedly needed if we are ever to make progress in the modern game.
Peter Laing
700   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:43:25

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Listen to the kopite songs on Saturday regarding Moyes, they are looking forward to another ten years with him in charge because they know we will win fuck all and always have an inferiority complex with him in charge whenever we play them.
Mick Wrende
706   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:48:45

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I have said many times that Evertonians have 2 choices:
1) Stick with Moyes and never get relegated but never win anything
2) Get an up and coming younger manager with a bit of flair and risk relegation but also have a great chance of winning a trophy.
I think most of us would like choice 2) but there are unbelievably some who think premiership survival is the ultimate goal. Well i have felt the exhilaration of winning the cup and the league and it is fantastic and thats what we deserve.
Tom Bowers
708   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:46:03

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Anyone who thinks we don't need a change must be living in a fool's paradise.
We need a fresh approach. Moyes will give us more of the same old tactics and keep faith with the same players, most of whom have proved they are past their best.
Other clubs have shown things can be turned around with a fresh face. Even Moyes did it when he first arrived but we are now mired in the mud and he has nothing new to say or offer Evertonians.
He is now in the same mold as Mike Walker, Gordon Lee and Walter Smith just going to the office every day and drawing good money for nothing.


Jem Traynor
713   Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:52:52

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All the stats to the negative mentioned about Martinez are true but with one thing not in the equation:, he isn't managing Everton, he's managing Wigan and they don't support their club like Evertonians!

If you know your history it's enough to make your arse go... oh shit it's Liverpool or Silverware! Half the problem is that the negativity is deeper seated in the Club than anyone knows; it is only perpetuated by the thoughts we have on our manager and he is doing a good job of keeping that alive himself.
Jeremy Benson
726   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:01:53

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Martinez has kept wigan in the premiership year after year? He has only completed 2 full seasons with wigan.

In his first season, they finished 16th with a poor 36 points, with a goal difference of -42, the worst in the premier league.



His second full season, they again finished 16th.

This is his third season, and they're...16th.



I'm not pro-moyes, I fancy a change too. But Martinez? Someone who can't get out of the bottom 5?

He spent 13 million last season. 15 million the season before. This season he spent 11 million.

Come on...
Scott Hamilton
727   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:04:52

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Peter Laing (700) - And we'd all take 10 more years of "King Kenny" being in charge of them too! Are you saying that you take the opinion of a bunch of fickle Kopites?

What is obvious here, and to a degree understandable, is that many see our performance against the RS as an overall barometer of Everton as a club. Three humiliating defeats = Everton being in dire straits.

As much as I am sick to the stomach of not beating them and listening to their shit, I see it slightly differently. If we had gone out of the FA Cup in an earlier round and to lesser opposition (lesser even than the RS) and were now sat where we are in the league I think, ironically, many would be far less vitriolic towards Moyes. So what are we saying: that he has the audacity to get us to an FA Cup semi-final and then lose? How dare he!

Martinez et al may have been mentioned on TW for quite a while. That doesn't make them the right choice for our club. What about solvency? If bringing them in risks finishing lower in the league of even relegation then doesn't that reduce our revenue and put us under financial pressure? Who's to say that the club's creditors have not insisted on tying Moyes into a long-term contract as they see it as the only guarantee of some moderate level of financial stability. All ifs, buts and maybes but so is the conjecture normally offered on TW.

The time to change managers is likely to be at the point where investment and/or a change of ownership take place.

Going back to Martinez; I rate him very highly but I guarantee that if you rang Wigan and offered to swap him for Moyes then they would do it in a heartbeat.
Domino Darkley
733   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:16:55

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I don't think Martinez is one of these "flavour of the month managers".

He has been around for a while now, building up Sansea and then keeping Wigan in the EPL every year, a much more notable feat at Wigan than it is at Everton.

Villa moved for him last season and I think they will try for him again this summer.

We won't, of course.

We are stuck with Dave because no team above us would be interested in his "vision" of playing the beautiful game and as he ain't going to ba sacked, he will continue to stink the place out until he retires.

David Moyes.....our very own Dario Gradi.
Dan McKie
736   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:22:32

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Scott, "Who's to say that the club's creditors have not insisted on tying Moyes into a long-term contract as they see it as the only guarantee of some moderate level of financial stability"? I doubt the clubs creditors have that kind of power. Also, is Moyes now suddenly a mega businessman, that financial institutions see as a rock of stability?
Scott Hamilton
744   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:27:25

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Dan, as the caveat to all financial agreements states "past performance is no guaranrantee of future performance". However, every investor considers the prior performance of whatever they are investing in. What I am saying is that creditors will definitely take into account the club's more recent league positions (which therefore to a degree means the income it receives) as they see this as a good indication of likely revenue in future years. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous!

Moyes himself would have no involvement in this process but he may be considered as a stable element which makes any investment more sound.

How can the creditors not have power? They decide the exact terms upon which an agreement is put in place and, as has been mentioned on here ad infinitum, as a club we do not have many options from a finance perspective. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case but if I was underwriting any finance, and I have experience of that, I would like at all elements, especially a manager that has produced a "consistent" performance from a business and that has been in place for a significant period, such as 10 years
Jim Hourigan
745   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:21:54

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If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

Now how many people think Moyes will change one iota from his current approach? Why on earth does anyone think it will result in a trophy or more importantly creative attacking successful football? The issue is not whether it's Martinez or someone else the issue is how do we get rid of Moyes.

Before his appointment he was a 'failed' champoinship manager ie 2 play off finals and 2 defeats, as soon as it came to the big matches his philospohy and approach fails. Yes, he stabalised the ship, stopped us from being relegation candidates and improved on what we had before, but for the last 3/4 years all we are doing is treading water in a pool that is becoming more and more stagnant.

Is Martinez worth a gamble and would it be a worse gamble than Moyes was at the time? I for one am desperate for change, Martinez has Premiership experience, Moyes didn't. Martinez has won more games at the sky 4 in one year than Moyes has in 10 years. Moyes inherited an ageing and poor squad full of has beens used to fighting relegation battles - a defensive approach was critical for salvation.Matrinez would has 3/4 pieces of deadwood to get rid of and has a squad that will compete at the least in the mid table, and then he can try some attacking football.Moyes may be able to get rid of the same deadwood but would our approach change?

If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always got - time for Moyes to go and give Martinez a chance
Dan McKie
749   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:35:47

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So you are saying a creditor would say 'We will give you this cash, only if you put David Moyes on 65k a week'? I doubt it.

Also, you might be right about Wigan swapping Martinez for Moyes, if Wigan fans have a massive media affected view of Moyes, rather than watching Everton games. What about if we swapped for 6 moths then see if they want Martinez back afterwards?

Moyes is no miracle worker. He has the 8th highest wage bill in the premier league, with an average finish of 8th. He is also the 12th highest paid manager in the world, yet cant seem to motivate the team, play to win, or make any decent changes within a game.
Dan McKie
750   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:40:47

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months*
Paul David
753   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:41:35

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Yeah I can see the banks demanding Moyes be the 12th highest paid manager in the world.
Haha 12th in the world,how is that possible.
Gary Carter
756   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:47:12

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Yes, what a fantastic idea ! How could Bill not have thought of that ! Lets sack a manager that has consistently overachieved, got us into europe and usually has us finish in the top 7 on an average spend of around 5 million a year. Then to confirm Bills genius lets employ a clueless spaniard that in the 2 seasons he has spent in the premiership has almost got relegated both of them, has like -40 odd goal difference and whose teams are quite frankly, SHIT, on top of that he gets about 10 million to spend each year. Surely this has been posted by an undercover Redshite, I mean what next, a "lets appoint Kenny Dogleash" bandwagon............... cretins !!
Jeremy Benson
757   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:51:54

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Wigan's record against Man Utd:

26 Dec 11 : PL away 0-5 lost

26 Feb 11: PL home 0-4 lost

20 Nov 09: PL away 0-2 lost

30 Dec 09: PL away 0-5 lost

22 Aug 09: PL home 0-5 lost

Yes, let's get martinez, brilliant against top 4 teams.
Craig Walker
771   Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:59:40

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Scott #727

"if we'd have gone out of the FA Cup in an earlier round or to lesser opposition..."

We've been dumped out of the FA Cup by the likes of Shrewsbury, Oldham and Reading during Moyes' tenure. We have had two good cup runs under Moyes. One where we capitulated in the final after going a goal up and Saturday where we capitulated in the semi final after going a goal up.

Are you saying that we should be thankful for one semi final place and a runners up spot over 10 years?

What happens the next time we get to a semi final? Are we going to be optimistic again or should we not bother turning up because we'll try and nick one and keep it tight and therefore know how it'll pan out?

Pete Bibby
775   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:06:41

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I'm local to Wigan, have a lot of friends that are season ticket holders.

Now I like Martinez and when in the pub I will voice that opinion but they say up until recent form they have not only being losing but this so-called "philosophy" of Martinez was non-existent. They claim they were playing poorly week in week out as he appeared scared of losing rather than going for a win. (Sound familiar??)

Now I know the media are telling people how well they have played all year but ill choose to listen to the people who have paid good money to watch them and they say the brand of football has been poor up until the last month.

Now I know they are in a good vein of form but let's be realistic Moyes is an exceptional manager albeit maybe overpaid, if we were to get rid there would be a queue waiting to snap him up.
Craig Walker
776   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:09:09

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Jim #745

Absolutely spot on. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I admire Moyes in some ways but I was brought up with football on the deck, ball players, attacking play. Moyes is against everything I believe in.
Jem Traynor
777   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:11:27

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Pete Bibby, you know what ? I never even thought of that! Well okay... let's get BK knobhead out and Dave Whelan in!

If he's giving Martinez so much money every season, Moyes will at least get more decent players to put the willies up so we ,ight have more of a chance.
Dan McKie
779   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:14:21

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I'd still prefer Holloway.
Danny James
780   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:15:23

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This is a crazy thread. We lambast Moyes every season because he doesn't get Everton playing until after Christmas yet we want to replace him with a man who doesn't get his team playing until April.
Denis Richardson
789   Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:24:20

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I think the 'who could/should we get' discussion is a bit of a waste of time as a certain Mr Moyes needs to actually leave first. He's not going to go unless someone offers him a job and thats not going to happen until something becomes available -conclusion, nothing is going to happen anytime soon.

There is however a silver lining somewhere - when pundits start coing out saying that Moyes needs to leave Everton to 'further his career' (chuckling whilst writing that), then this to me means that road is being paved for him to be able to leave without any supposedly guilty/jumping sinking ship feelings. Cannot really see any 'big' club coming in for him (e.g. Spurs/Chelsea) but if they do I say thanks and wish him all the best (bit like a prossy saying goodbye to a punter - neither quite sure who fucked who..).

If its going to happen end of this season, I just hope it happens early so we're not f'cked with having no time to sign anyone, especially given the distractions of the Euros and Olympics...

Martinez, Rodgers, Holloway, Jonny Foreigner - I really couldn't care as long as the guy has drive, passion and wants to play the game how it should be played - I.e. try to win games through scoring rather than making defense the prime (and sometimes only!) objective.

Please not Neville or Stubbs though!

Henry Weindling
807   Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:16:05

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It?s an interesting debate. Personally I believe we need to be very careful what we wish for. Look at the following examples:

- Alan Curbishley at Charlton ? Consistently achieved mid table finishes. Left Charlton. Now look at where the club lie.
- Tony Mowbray at West Brom ? Insisted on playing attractive football. Admirable but ultimately led to relegation after one season
- Ian Holloway at Blackpool ? Exactly the same fate as Tony Mowbray

Now I would love to see us playing expansive football with a ?you score 4, we score 5? mentality. It may be exciting but it will ultimately lead to relegation and the frightening prospect of financial meltdown at Everton.

I also would like to see Moyes be a bit more gutsy against the bigger teams, and agree that if we had really gone for it on Saturday, they wouldn?t have stood a chance. But let?s be realistic here, Moyes? league finishes speak for themselves, they have been an outstanding achievement. In my view he is a victim of his own success at Everton. Moyes has also shown that he can play attractive football ? look at the way we dismantled Sunderland and Swansea with ease.

I?m also fairly positive for next season in that I feel with a few decent additions (and a half decent start) we can really be a force. Whether Moyes stays or not remains to be seen. But as I said at the start of this post...be very careful what you wish for
Nate Allen
809   Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:17:32

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Moyes is a blessing, don't forget that, lest you risk the bottom of the table.
Eugene Ruane
812   Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:22:11

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Nate, 'lest' this!

- Grabs ball-bag and thrusts hips -
Paul David
816   Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:24:06

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Nate 809
Do you really think without Moyes this team is worse than Wolves,Q.P.R,Bolton or Blackburn.
Jem Traynor
822   Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:38:29

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Good point that, Domino Darkley??

If Martinez does go to Villa, as he knocked them back last season and is refusing to sign a new deal with Wigan, it'll be intresting to see the outcome.
Tony J Williams
833   Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:21:24

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812 - Classic!
Denis Richardson
839   Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:29:58

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Jem 822 - you saying Moyes to Wigan?
Brian Waring
840   Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:32:12

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Tony (#655) "4 pts previous is forgotten because he has raised his team to beat...Arsenal"

Its ironic that, because all of a sudden we went on a run, we were all expected to forget the shite that went before at the start of the season.
Brian Waring
841   Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:36:16

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And the start of the season before, and the season... well, you get my drift.
Kevin Jones
862   Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:33:34

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Here we go again, If I have to type this one more fucking time I'll go fucking loopy. The last time Everton Football Club, ( the club you and I have supported since we where kids ), where relegated was ? Answers on a postcard or sealed down envelope to

Bullens Road Hospital
I've A Whopper Avenue
Ward 1878 for the mentally Impaired Evertonian.
Bed 9 just next to the barred windows

Tel Liverpool 2Nil 3Nil 21

Do not think for one half minute, that if we get rid of Moyes, ( please please please please) , we will freefall into the conference. We have had much better managers than Moyes, and more importantly, a lot worse managers than Moyes, and yet we have been in the top flight since 1954, fuck give the answer away. That's right folks 58 fucking years, but Ohhh Noooo don't' get rid of Dave he's great he can do anything. He's a negative twat, and the sooner he leaves the better. Hopefully he'll walk then we can pay somebody 30/40 Grand a week and save a few bob as well. I've had my season ticket renewal form on my desk since I got it in the post a few weeks back, and I'm sorely tempted to bin it. I know I won't because I'm like a crack addict, I know it's bad for me but I just can't stop. My preference would be Brendon Rogers, but right now I'd take fucking Roy Rogers with Trigger as 1st team coach.

Now where's that renewal form ?
Ray Roche
883   Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:19:18

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Paul Davis@688.

Paul, this is taken from the match report from Moyes first game in charge:

"Only goal difference was keeping Everton out of the relegation zone before this game after a miserable run of one win from their last 13 Premiership matches."

The team Moyes took over was heading out of the Prem. I'm as pissed off as anyone else right now, in fact I very much doubt if I am going to renew my Season Ticket. But let's not forget how rubbish we were before Moyes steadied the ship.

I would be happy to see a new manager arrive and bring a new era of good football but I can still appreciate what Moyse has done.
Ray Roche
886   Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:50:06

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Kein Jones@862.

There you go again, talking shite. Trigger is the most nagative horse I've seen. Talk about hoof ball...
Kevin Sparke
889   Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:44:31

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Martinez for Everton...

I can just imagine the comments if Everton were where Wigan are a year from now

A Martinez 'apologist': "Okay, we've beaten Arsenal and Liverpool on our travels, play exciting football... what more to Evertonian's want?"

Critic: "Erm... try still in contention for Europe, avoiding a relegation dogfight for three quarters of the season and a goal difference that's not minus 26...

Martinez Apologist: Well, who else do you want - name one other manager to take his place who'll do as well as him... see... you can't

Critic: How about that young David Moyes - I see his team Darlington had an away win against Blyth Spartans...
Jeremy Benson
891   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:08:33

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I can just imagine martinez bringing some of his favourite wigan players with him....
Kev Johnson
892   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:06:09

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Michael/Lyndon - How about a poll on this?

Along the lines of "Who would you like to be Everton manager next season? Moyes, Martinez, Rodgers, Lambert or Adkins?"

Personally, I'd be plumping for Martinez. I like a nice plump. You can't beat it.
Mark Jensen
894   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:11:02

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I'm joining this debate 60 posts in but I did give a nod (or plump!) for Martinez a year ago.
Not because I think he is the greatest manager ever but because of his coaching style.
Should Wigan go down, my opinion will not change.
Here is a man who believes in the passing game, possession and pace. Simple.
There are other managers out there who believe the same, Rodgers at Swansea (where Martinez started the 'revolution'), Wenger, etc.

I honestly believe if the current squad were better coached we could achieve an awful lot more than we have done in the past 10 years.
Jeremy Benson
895   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:12:47

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Kev, thats appropriate you liking plump, as I reckon we'd be at the arse-end of the table....

I don't know who are better prospective candidates - but usually there are plenty available in the summer. Personally I think we are in need of someone with enough kudos to be able to attract good quality players on loans and free's, and with experience of finishing higher than 16th in the premiership.
Paul David
899   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:14:07

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I really don't get the "remember where we was when Moyes took over" argument.

Yes the first few years he done a great job transforming us but you dont stick with someone purely out of loyalty.

Its like staying with the first girl who let you touch her up.
Tony J Williams
900   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:21:41

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Jeremy, is he going to kidnap them?, as we won't be able to afford any new players
Barry Rathbone
903   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:18:26

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Kevin Sparke - I enjoyed that just about summarises the polar divide, good stuff.

One thing about Martinez he used his spanish connections to lift Swansea and it has to be said the best Benitez transfers were spaniards.

Ring him now.....this minute....c'mon no waiting......want him here by friday.

Karl Masters
908   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:13:56

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Martinez? File alongside Coppell, Hodgson, Holloway, Curbishley, Mowbray, Mark Hughes, Rodgers, Lambert under latest Toffeeweb INFATUATION.

IF Moyes was to leave, we could do a lot worse than seek out ex Villarreal boss, Pellegrini who built a very good, durable and successful team for a Club with very little money and a tiny stadium. Not given any time at Real Madrid, but still got the credentials for Everton.

But, actually, there is no vacancy at Goodison, so just conjecture.
Kev Johnson
909   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:22:11

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Jeremy (895) - I don't think the well-respected Hungarian coach Mr Kudos is gonna come to Goodison, so let's be realistic. If we're just dreaming a little dream then I'd be plumping for Bielsa at Athletic Bilbao - I love the way he's got his team playing.

So who are you plumping for. You gotta plump.
Dean Adams
911   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:27:00

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Barry Rathbone - he certainly changed the ethos at Swansea, the Spanish style of play and the expectations. From bottom of the league (92nd) place, to where they are now, he set the ball rolling, the fans bought into the idea and successive managers have kept the faith.

He is, no matter what some on this site say, a very good manager. Just look at the squad he has at Wigan and see how well they play. Now imagine our players playing that way. Sure, one or two would fail, but we could get rid of them and stick a few cardboard cut-outs on the pitch, same result!!!
Keith Glazzard
913   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:26:57

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Kenyon isn't going to sack Moyes and DM isn't going to walk.

This situation will continue until Arsenal recruit Moyes or Hibbo look-alike President Putin buys EFC and relocates us to the newly created KGB theme park in Kirkby.

Until then, the best chance we have for any improvement is starting next season with Yelavic. He is no doubt being taught how to defend as we speak.
Jeremy Benson
914   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:43:01

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Kev, if you make me plump....then I guess I'd probably go for one of the foreign managers who have flirted with the premiership. Not saying we COULD attract them, but if they felt they had unfinished business they may be tempted...so ancelotti or hiddink or even eriksson.

If we have to look more realistically in the UK, then we'd do worse than hodgson. If we have to pick one for the future then I'd go for phil neville as player manager. And as a real wild card I'd give di canio a go over martinez any day.
Ray Roche
915   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:49:34

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Paul David@899

Paul, I'm not suggesting we stick with Moyes out of loyalty. What I am suggesting is that
"Martinez keeping Wigan in the prem year after year is a bigger achievment than Everton being best of the rest under Moyes" is a flawed statement. When Moyes took over we WERE Wigan and when Martinez gets Wigan into the best of the rest position then a like for like comparison can be made. Or indeed, when Martinez affords Wigan the luxury of regular mid-table mediocrity, something their fans would love right now.
I am aware of the disparity in gate numbers and costs etc. so there is no need to point that out.
Kev Johnson
918   Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:59:28

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Jeremy - after an initial reluctance to plump, you've gone mad with the plumping, with no less than six managers plumped for!

As self-appointed Plumpmeister, I will take your last answer as definitive. You have therefore officially plumped for Paolo Di Canio as the new Everton manager.

Well, that is something of a shock, to be fair...
Jeremy Benson
922   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:08:30

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Well, I reckon the half-time teamtalks would be better than currently. And I don't think anyone add the nickname "dour" to him either.
Paul David
925   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:10:18

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Ray 915
Glad you got there before me.

The fact is that we can't attract a big name manager so we have to look to take one away from a smaller club than ours.

And by definition a smaller clubs expectations and means to exceed them will be less than ours.

The same way a "great" manager like moyes's results cant match up to Ferguson or Wenger.
Paul David
927   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:22:21

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Plus Moyes's C.V wasnt exactly glowing when we give him a chance.
Joe McMahon
929   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:23:35

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IMO- Roberto Martinez would gibe us hope again......Hope remember that! With this squad he would make us more appealing on the eye, the players would feel like the shackles have been removed. Infact thats what this club requires from top to bottom, the shackles being removed.
Sadly it ain't gonna happen. We are stuck with them both (we all know who both are). Fast forward another 10 years, Goodison is bolloxed, Bullens shut down, a 45 years old Cahill hasn't scored for 9 years and Neville is gonna big up how we are gonna do Liverpool in the cup match. We haven't played them in 6 years since we were relegated.
Kevin Tully
935   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:25:14

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This thread is becoming more ridiculous by the minute.

We are only second to Arsenal in the number of seasons spent in the top flight. We have spent the last 58 years in the top division. We have a team full of international players. We pay the 8th highest wages in the P.L. We pay the manger the 12th highest wage in world football.

Yes you're right people - just like Wigan, Charlton, Portsmouth, Wolves, QPR and Blackburn, we will fall into oblivion if we change our socks.

I fucking officially give up.
Kev Johnson
960   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:51:11

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So, where's our "Who do you want to manage Everton next season?" poll then?

Actually, poll is the wrong word. Plumpathon.

Please and thank you.
Peter Laing
966   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:54:51

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I'd plump for Eugene Ruane his post match comments would be worth his appointment to the job alone !
Paul David
976   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:17:11

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Peter 966
Here here.
Kev Johnson
981   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:13:31

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Well, we've got some real outsiders coming up on the rails of The Next EFC Manager Steeplechase. Eugene Ruane, Paolo di Canio... Any other dark horses people care to back - sorry, plump for?

I've got one: Joe Royle! He's younger than Roy Hodgson and, obviously, Ferguson, and just a year older than Wenger. Unfinished business, innit. Plus, we might actually manage to win the odd derby with him back in charge.
I know, I know, it's a brilliant idea. [insert smiley face here]
Danny James
987   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:31:10

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Kevin 935

No team has spent more seasons in the top flight than Everton
James Stewart
991   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:43:59

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No
Dave Wilson
060   Posted 18/04/2012 at 07:39:50

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The Wigan chairman will give Martinez more money to spend this summer than Kenwright would
Ray Robinson
069   Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:29:51

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Comparisons between Moyes's Everton and Martinez's Wigan are pointless. The only valid "comparison" (a speculative one) would be how would Moyes fare at Wigan with generally inferior players and how would Martinez cope at Everton with generally superior players?

I believe that Everton would adopt a more expansive style but be less predicatble, and Moyes would ensure stability at Wigan.

So it probably gets down to whether we Evertonians are prepared to put up with more of the same but rest assured in the knowledge that we are guaranteed further time in the top flight, or are we fed up with the same dour tactics and prepared to take some chances in the hope of some entertainment and possible success?

The argument of what has Martinez ever done at Wigan is far too simplistic? I like his philosophy and think he might do a decent job at Everton.

Martinez v Moyes? It all gets down to your view on life.

By the way Dave, Whelan may well give Martinez more transfer funds than Kenwright gives Moyes this Summer but I'll wager Wigan's wage bill is far less than Everton's!
Paul David
073   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:01:10

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Ray 69
I for one am prepared to fall a few places in the league in the pursuit of entertainment.

Saying that I dont understand some peoples argument on here that by playing football we would automatically drop like a stone.

Theres a reason the best teams play football,not only is it entertaining but the best way to get results.
Peter Davies
076   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:00:56

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Keep Moyes but send him away on holiday before derby matches and big cup ties and let Joe Royle prep the team for them!
Eugene Ruane
080   Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:41:26

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Mick Wrende (706) - You say..

"I have said many times that Evertonians have 2 choices: 1) Stick with Moyes and never get relegated but never win anything. 2) Get an up and coming younger manager with a bit of flair and risk relegation but also have a great chance of winning a trophy"

I more or less agree that these are the choices, however it should be added that (re point 1) there's is NO guarantee we won't/can't get relegated under Moyes.

For me it's not THAT difficult to imagine we start next season (or the one after) like we did this season, but instead of our famed second half of the season recovery, we just..continue on that way.

Remember, we now have fuck all left to sell other than players.
Stephen Kenny
084   Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:42:31

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Karl,

Pellegrini is managing Malaga. No Chance.

Everybody else who supports Moyes. How steady do you want the ship to be?

He's a waste of time.
Stephen Kenny
086   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:25:13

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The Everton chairman will give David Moyes a wage budget Martinez can only dream of.
Simon Harris
090   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:24:43

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Ray 69 - It's all irrelevant while Kenwright is chair.

Unless of course Moyes is offered and fancies a fresh challenge, at an ambitious club

I see he's still 2nd favourite for the Spurs job, with Martinez surprisingly well out and behind the likes of Steve Bruce !
Ray Roche
091   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:28:39

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Paul David@073

I agree, playing good football doesn't mean we would drop a few places, indeed, when we have played good football with the ball on the ground instead of Trigger hoofing up and out of the stable, we have looked a better side with good results. Re; Sunderland h+a, and when we knocked the ball about aganst Chelsea, City and Spurs. OK, we were under the cosh at times but we ended up happy and three points better off. If we had taken the game to Liverpool with the ball on the deck we'd have won, and I wouldn't be thinking of binning my season ticket.
Paul David
094   Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:33:52

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Eugene 80
Thats a good point I had never thought about,just because Moyes now has a reputation for making Everton "best of the rest" thats no guarantee it will always be the case.

Forset won the european cup and suffered relegation with the same manager.

I have thought for a while that we're going to be in big trouble next season unless theres massive change.Now we have Jelavic them worries have eased a little but I still want change.
Andrew Fair
178   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:22:18

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Another name that everyone will be bringing up next season is Mcdermott at Reading, add that to the tedious bandwagon of Martinez,Rodgers, Holloway (last year, gone quiet on that front this year! Wonder why?) and Lambert.

What a loud of rubbish! No one else could do a better job for EFC than Moyes! Maybe they will be more attacking but they wouldnt finish in the positions he has for us.
Paul David
184   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:30:59

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Andrew 178

Theres no way of knowing if anyone can do a better job than Moyes if we dont try and find out.

There has been plenty of times this season were i've thought "if only he would abandon that prehistoric formation we would have won"

Forget about who is or who isnt better than Moyes,i'm curious what you think about this.
Do you think this current side would better under this Moyes or a less negative Moyes?
Andrew Fair
186   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:45:55

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I think this season, we have seen against the lesser teams, we have been attacking and have been good, especially since February in ball retention and passing football. I do agree he should be more positive against the big teams but is that a reason to try someone else out? I don't think so.

If we are losing games under Martinez 4-3, 3-2 even 5-4 people will be asking "Why isn't he more defensive?" I think Moyes knows he needs to more attacking but then would we do better in the cup? Better against LFC? Well, we have been losing in the cups and to the redshite for decades so that's not an issue that has crept in under Moyes!
Paul David
191   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:52:35

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Andrew
Sorry I just cant agree,against utd and the like I know we cant expect to beat them at their own game but he really doesnt have a go at the smaller clubs.

At home playing 451 with 7 defenders in the team like he was earlier in the season can not been since as anything other than negative.

Theres been about 5 games at Goodison this season were we havent had a shot at goal never mind score yet he still persists with one up front.
Mick Gallagher
193   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:54:53

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Who has the better players? Moyes, Martinez or Rodgers? I would say Moyes.
So why the fuck would we be relagated if one of them took over and tried to play more attacking football??? I thought we paid good money to be entertained, but I might be wrong.
Tony J Williams
199   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:53:28

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"Theres no way of knowing if anyone can do a better job than Moyes if we dont try and find out." I get what you are trying to say but the failure Moyes has is not winning trophies or getting into the top 4. That is a harsh definition of failure.

Our team isn't as good as we think, it got better in January and low and behold we started playing better footy
Paul David
201   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:24:52

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Tony
That might be failure for other people but I have never expected us to do better in terms of final league postion.

The reason I started to change my mind about 3ish years a go is purely down to football or rather the lack of it.

The reason I now despise the man is because of his betrayal at Anfield closely followed up by cowardly performance on Saturday.
Dan McKie
207   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:36:12

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I dont think any Everton supporters think we should be guaranteed a trophy or finish top 4, thats just something the pro Moyes camp throw at the anti Moyes camp. Along with Lambert and Rodgers being one season wonders, Martinez with a -26 goal difference, Holloway being such an awful manager that he somehow managed to take Blackpool down (no mention of his shoestring budget which was 0 in transfer fees coupled with a 5k max wage ceiling), and he has them back in the playoffs this year with similar constraints. All of these guys (except Martinez?), managed to get their underdog sides out of the championship and playing well in the premier league, something which Moyes never managed with Preston. Yet nobody could do a better job than Moyes....hmm!
Paul David
209   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:44:23

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Dan
I agree with everything but there is one thing I would like to ask as its not the first time i've heard it.It cant possible be true that Blackpool had a 5k wage cap?
Kevin Tully
210   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:48:23

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Moyes has to work under zero pressure from the board, the only manager in the P.L. who is this fortunate, and is the third highest paid to boot.

No wonder we have shitty starts, who would ever sack him ?
Peter Laing
212   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:55:35

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Look at it this way, we may end up with our very own version of Dario Gradi at Crewe with David Moyes. He could be here for the next twenty years, never win a trophy and we meander along. There are no expectations from the board other than survival, top-ten finish and possibly a Cup run. That's the business model for Everton these days and as unpalatable as it is the Kenwright-Moyes axis is built upon this strategy.
Dan McKie
216   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:59:25

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They did Paul, however, they did up it to 10k to get Charlie Adam to stay until the end of last season. The Oystons not only run a tight ship, they are just plain tight. How Holloway managed to get the likes of Kevin Phillips and Barry Ferguson in this season is a mystery. Add to the fact they pay their wages almost pro rata, the players agree to their salary, but are paid more of it during the season, then in close season it is cut right down.
Paul David
220   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:04:31

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I was already impressed by Holloway but now I know about the wage restrictions it makes Moyes sound like a lord complaining his castle isnt big enough.

Moyes a miracle worker?Holloway makes Jesus's miracles look like smoke and mirrors.
Jeremy Benson
223   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:57:04

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Wenger and Ferguson both work under zero pressure. Which isn't a bad thing - granted 10 years is a bit long, but given that the premiership merry-go-round is universally agreed to be a bit ridiculous, it'd be churlish to want managers to be so under pressure they can't get any time to build.

Changing manager often is also counter productive; every new manager can make the excuse of them "not being his players", as by the time they've bought a few they're usually sacked, and the cycle continues. And changing managers is expensive too; contracts to pay off, compensation to be paid, etc.

I would hope that if we DO get rid of moyes (or he walks), that any new manager coming in would be given a similar chance - a good period of time to rebuild and move forward.

I've often thought that if I was a chairman (and I had the luxury of choice), I'd give every manager a proper chance; 3 years+ and make sure the manager knew that so could properly build for the future.

I mean, what is realistic for everton for the future? If we got a new manager for the start of next season?

I can't imagine as fantasy chairmen, that we could reasonably say much more than "we want you to finish top half or better each season, play good football. We want to play in europe again, and we want to have won a trophy within 5 years".

Everton's problems though are down to dosh and not enough of it. Hardly any club outside the top 4 wins a cup. We've been in one final and one semi under moyes. We've been in europe a couple of times.

So I just don't see what will get better if we get someone like martinez (change name to suit current favourite manager choice). Is a new manager really going to win us a trophy within 5 years, or get us into europe?

The only difference is that its a change. It's a bit like the arsenal supporters - many are calling for a change to wenger. IMHO, wenger has managed arsenal brilliantly, they are financially the soundest club in the land and will be in a position to take advantage of that when man utd have gone bust and the oligarchs have got bored.

We're a long way into a long term relationship and we are looking at passers by as if the grass is always greener. It isn't.

I'm not pro-moyes. I think I want change. But I doubt any change will ultimately be for the better.


Peter Laing
226   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:24:25

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Jeremy, change needs to begin at the top, a root cause analysis is obvious in this respect. But change isnt going to happen, we are stagnating and the fans are unable, and very many unwilling to try to affect change. We are a basket case !
Tommy Gibbons
227   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:00:36

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Martinez was just a starting point but he's typical of what's out there and actually better and more experienced than Moyes when we got him.

I renewed my season ticket because I support the club, not the manger, board or players, because they come and go (some don't GO quick enough)! I also understand why people refrain from renewing and in some cases refusing to go to the game at all.

In fact I'd go as far to say, other than the ideological reasons for not going, the entertainment on show has been piss poor for years and 3,000 stayaways can't be wrong. It's time for a change, it's time for the club to take a chance again. Do the decent thing, Mr Moyes, and resign.
Paul David
228   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:25:20

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Jeremy I think most peoples problem with Moyes is how he sets his team up,not that we're not winning the league.

You do make some good points about things not working out and the new blaming it on the team not being his players ect.

But not changing manager out of fear of change is the same as Moyes not going for a win out of fear of defeat.
Jeremy Benson
234   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:31:49

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Paul, I'm not sure it's fear. I just genuinely don't see what a new manager can do, in our current regime, with our limited pot, that would be better.

We could play a bit better football and be a bit more gung-ho, I agree. But will that get us into europe? A trophy? I doubt it.

Spurs went gung-ho against chelsea in the other semi and got battered. Wigan have conceded 8 and 9 in single games in the past 3 seasons. They regularly get mullered. A couple of good results against top 4 teams and all our eyes appear to have been turned. I have this nagging feeling that under a new manager, we might see that Moyes's "nick it by 1" against the "better" teams might prove to be a pragmatic tactic in hindsight.

But maybe we need change in order to appreciate that. Many a philandering husband has had a road to damascus moment...

As I said, I'm not "afraid". I'm also not trying to make a case for Moyes. I'm trying to genuinely understand in my own head, whether I should be more pro-moyes given that I can't logically fathom how we will instantly be better off. All it will d is cost us a few million quid in fee's that we could have used better on players.

We can't compete at the top 4 level anymore, we only have bottom half finances. Cup's are lottery's, we know that, you need some luck and good draws. How do we qualify for europe when man city and spurs have joined the party . That's 5 teams better than us.
Tony J Williams
235   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:51:21

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Dan, I have never said anyone couldn't do any better than Moyes, there are many that would.

Posters here are suggesting that Moyes is a failure because he has gone 10 years without a trophy. Some seem to feel that a new manager will miraculously have our average footy players playing lovely football and finish higher than Moyes has because of it.

The "careful what you wish for" soundbite is annoying but it's just as bad as all the ones suggesting that x,y or z will definitely have our cloggers playing tippy tappy football and will do so much better against the better sides away from home.

Both views are bollocks, as they will never be proven until Moyes leaves/is sacked
Paul David
237   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:41:49

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Jeremy
For me personally, I don't want to see change because I believe Moyes should be achieving more; I want to be entertained.

To say playing football won't get us into Europe, why not? Plus we will struggle to get into Europe playing the way we are now, as we've slipped even more down the pecking order.
Jeremy Benson
240   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:50:31

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I can understand the wanting better football argument.

But ? and I'm sure this will get panned ? maybe as Everton fans we're all a bit close to woods to see the trees. Other clubs, fans, media, and the public all think Moyes is doing one of the best jobs in the Premier League. It's only us Everton fans who seem to think he isn't?

I just don't think we have fully come to terms with (and accepted) our position in the new world pecking order of football finances. Quite rightly, we want more.

However, I am starting to wonder what the wider football community thinks about us and whether we are becoming too "god-given right...". I hope we don't become like Newcastle fans.


I am genuinely gutted about the state of football today, and money is ruining the game for the fans. But as it stands, cash wins, and until that situation changes with a new investor/owner, we are going to struggle, any manager is going too with what we have.

I think the time for a manager change is when there is a change in finances that means we can genuinely set down realistic expectations of glory.
Tony J Williams
243   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:57:09

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You want to be entertained Paul? Go and get a season ticket for Man U or Arsenal and probably Man City now. I think they are the only teams worth watching in the Premier League at the moment.

We haven't been entertaining to watch since the 80s, unless you consider relegation battles entertaining.
James Martin
244   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:03:26

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Eugene, the logic that says just because Moyes hasn't got us relegated yet doesn't mean he won't can easily be reversed to say just because he hasn't won anything yet doesn't mean he won't. Just as easily as he could put two bad halves of a seaosn together next year he could put two good halves together and we'd have Champions League football.

These debates about other managers are largely pointless as no-one knows until it actually happens, and when Moyes does decide to leave (because I can't see him being fired), it won't be us on here picking the new manager. It will be whoever the Chairman is at the time and if it's still Kenwright, he will probably try and find a manager in the exact same mould as Moyes.
Gary Clark
245   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:56:43

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Kev at 862, now that made me giggle like a girl. I totally agree I would have Roy Cropper from Corrie and Trigger from only fools and horse as manager and coach.

Just heard Felli saying we need to invest big time, now he knows we haven't got two zonks to rub together... is that his excuse to want to do one when we don't buy?

Anyway, watch us defend at Manure like crazy and then throw big Vic on 80 minutes gone. AMAZING cant wait
Paul David
249   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:23:44

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Jeremy,
Like I said, I have no real complaints about Moyes's results, it's the way he goes about getting them I don't like.

Tony,
Go get a season ticket elsewhere, what kind of argument is that? I am not expecting Neville, Cahill and Gibson to turn into Messi and Co but to see a decent standard of football isn't asking much.
Michael Kenrick
251   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:24:44

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Tony, that's a bit of an over generalization about us not being entertaining since the 80s.

I think Joe Royle's tenure was excellent until it started to unravel, especially considering the fairly poor players he had, but that one season with Kancheslkis and 14 brilliant goals will live long in the memory for me. The game were we beat Chelsea 3-1 at Goodison... or was that Walter?

Even under Moyes, there have been periods when the manager has had enough confidence in his players to let them off the tight leash and bask in the glory of what they can achieve when they are on song.

I really thought this season, that once we had 40 points and were making fairly good progress toward Wembley, Moyes would finally wake up. This had been pretty much manifested, starting at the Stadium of Light... but last week sadly saw a dismally depressing reversion to type.
Richard Dodd
256   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:31:37

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But Martinez is Sooo last week,darlings!
The name in the frame now is Brian McDermott-haven`t you seen what he achieved with little old Reading last night?
And my old mates, the Zingaravichs,are going to fund his transfer kitty from now on.
Chris Samuelson (who has always been a Royals supporter)has promised to have the cash in place by 28 Feb... 31March....sorry 30April.
And...they are going to let Sir John Madjeski stay on as chairman!
Just so sad that we hadn`t the patience to wait for that cheque,
Regards,
Gordon Clegg.
Jeremy Benson
257   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:41:07

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I'm waiting with bated breath for what happens against Man Utd at the weekend.

Its like an enigma wrapped in a riddle..or whatever it is.

My gut instinct is that Moyes will put the same team out and we'll try and nick it. We'll go 1-0 behind and that will be gameplan over.

But - some players could do with a change/rest, and may not be in the right frame of mind. It wouldn't surprise me to see anichebe start, hibbert has done no wrong, piennar will obviously be back and that itself will force a change.

The ethos may actually be "go for it" after criticism from the weekend and an attempt to lift the players. But we know from losing the final a while ago it had a detrimental effect and the heads might not be in it and it could be catastrophic.

I have no idea what the weekend will hold. The team, the tactics, the result. If we win, I expect many mailbag entries of "if only...". I wouldn't want to call it - it could be anything from 1-0 to 0-5....

Tony Christian
259   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:52:51

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If David Moyes was Wigan's manager then they would have been relegated three seasons ago. He is a negative, tactically inept, coward of the highest order. The semi against Man Utd three season ago was a disgrace albeit we fluked it on pens, the final was worse still. Last saturday was the icing on the cake for me. Can't wait for this darling of the media to f**k off to Spurs and show his true colours. He is a charlatan who is hiding behind his 'we have no money' bullshit. he has the safest job in European football and is the world's 12th best paid coach. Will he walk? Will he F**k!!
Paul David
260   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:52:03

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Jeremy
I have been thinking about the same thing today,will he put kids in,change formation,attack but then I remembered how stubborn he is and any changes against utd would be like admitting he made mistakes against Liverpool.

So I would be very surprised if there was any type of change at all.
Jeremy Benson
261   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:59:25

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Paul,

I'd love to see Barkley and Velios back in the reckoning.

There isn't much left to play for except placing prize money, so why not give them some game time and save ourselves some summer transfer money.

But you're right, I half-expect the same team to be put out. Which is a shame. Although in my mind, Distin should be the first name on the team sheet,

Of course, Moyes will probably replace Distin now...
Eugene Ruane
263   Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:46:45

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James Martin (244) You say..

"Eugene, the logic that says just because Moyes hasn't got us relegated yet doesn't mean he won't can easily be reversed to say just because he hasn't won anything yet doesn't mean he won't"

I agree completely, logic (or the logic) DOES say that.

Unfortunately, what says he WON'T win a carrot, is not logic, but is HIS mentality.

A mentality that lacks adventure and imagination and believes football success can be achieved using a tactic of safety first.

Do I KNOW this?

Well I know it is a mentality that, when it has come close to winning anything (and this is a proper medical brain term) has shit itself.

Not logical in my opinion, but looks like we're stuck with it a while longer
Paul David
264   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:08:30

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Pienaar will be the only change. I would love to know whats happened to Vellios though? Before Jelavic arrived, there was no doubt in my mind that Vellios was the best we had up front. 6 months later he's not even on the bench.
Stephen Kenny
267   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:04:02

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I don't get the aversion to a more expansive style of play?

Purely from a fan perspective it would make the 500-1500 quid a year we spend watching us a bit more bearable BUT more importantly that style is the most successful.

The best sides bar a few have all played expansive, attacking football. They usually combine this with a sound defence.

I'm not saying we could conquer Europe by passing it on the deck a bit more but I see no reason why utilizing our footballers to do what they do best, which is how most of them reached the top level, we wouldn't improve. Often results start picking up Dec/Jan and that coincides with a better brand of football.

We won't be relegated without Moyes and we won't win the league either. We may improve and we might even have a go in the games that mean something. I'm struggling to remember one that really, really mattered where he done us proud?
Paul David
268   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:31:35

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stephen
I been trying to say the same thing,for some reason and I dont know were it comes from but a lot of people seem to think playing football will cost us 10 points a year.
Jeremy Benson
272   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:35:00

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We have 5 games to try a different style of play.

Personally, I don't think a more expansive style of play will necessarily work consistently, given the players that we have, and can afford.

BUT - I see no reason why we can't try and batter the living daylights out of half the premiership, whilst being more reserved and pragmatic against the in-form teams and top 4/away from home.

There is a balance to be won out there. At the moment we do seem to be losing it to being too defensive against everyone. I myself don't take offence when we try and sneak 1-0 against a top team, I get very upset when we do it at home to teams like blackburn whoever.
John Crawley
273   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:34:56

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Stephen/Paul completely agree. Another of the comments that drive me crazy is the one that Blackpool got relegated because of their attacking play. Surely that is complete rubbish. The facts are that they got promoted to the Premiership (first time in top flight since 1971) against all the odds by playing attacking football (think they were actually one of the favourites to get relegated). Then when they were in the Premiership they were one of the favourites to get relegated and also they were regarded as candidates for the lowest points total in Premiership history. By all rights with the players that they had they should have been down weeks before the season ended. The fact that they played such attacking football was THE reason they were still in with a chance of staying up on the last day of the season.

In addition to all of this the most successful team in Premiership history is Man Utd and Ferguson has always played attacking football. He sure as hell didn't win all of those trophies at Aberdeen as well by playing negative defensive football.
Peter Thistle
274   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:32:55

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Why would Moyes want to leave Everton when he is being paid a ridiculous amount of money for achieving nothing but avoiding relegation. Sickens me that a club with such poor finances can pay him so much, could almost get Capello for those kinda wages.

Kenwright will never sack him so we are stuck with Moyes unless a new owner comes in and wants a change... Fat chance...
Paul David
275   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:41:56

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2 games left to change style of play,thats how many home games we have.One step a time Jermey,dont run before you can walk.
Jeremy Benson
277   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:43:17

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Peter, to be fair and add some balance, the majority of top managers who are on that kind of money would downright refuse to be everton manager unless they were given 50 million per year transfer budget.

I think the dream that Moyes will be replaced by a world-class manager are just that, a dream.

Jeremy Benson
278   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:46:35

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2 games, you'd take that wouldn't you Paul?
Paul David
282   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:46:37

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Well Peter I believe Moyes only has one more year left on his deal,he wont be sacked and he certainly wont walk out on that money,I cant see any "big" clubs coming in for him so maybe the contract will be allowed to run down.Baffles me how he is being paid world class wages by a club crying poverty.
Paul David
283   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:53:20

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I'd take 1 game
Stephen Kenny
284   Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:43:10

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John,

It's daft point oft used to belittle Holloway's and Blackpool's achievements.

They were favourites to go down and got promoted, they then got tipped to get the least amount of points ever seen in the PL and got 39, 29 more than most pundits suggested.

More importantly they never gave anyone an inch they never fought for and they never rolled over for anyone. All on a budget of magic beans.
Jeremy Benson
285   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:01:30

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This is worth a read, by the way:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f340caae-47cd-11e1-b646-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1sPrdlnXr
Jamie Barlow
286   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:00:58

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The pressure was non existent when Blackpool come up. They could just go out and enjoy every game like a cup final and that's what they did.

I don't think anyone can deny Holloway is a good manager and the same goes for Moyes.

For all the talk of how exciting and carefree Blackpool were, they went down and I'm quite positive the Blackpool chairman wouldn't have thought twice about kicking Holloway out of the door if he had the chance of Moyes managing.

What I want to happen most (after Kenwright fucking off) is for Moyes to sort out the coaching staff. Its shockingly defensive and is the biggest reason we play like we do.
Jeremy Benson
288   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:16:25

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Jamie, the coaching staff are moyes' choice.

It was refreshing when dunc came back in to the fold last season. Now, I don't think Peter Reid is doing anything, lets get him back in as well. He was a tower of morality and strength at plymouth.

I don't know why sharpie is doing fan stuff, there's no reason why he can't get into coaching. Then al we need is a decent winger coach and we're away... let's say we promote Kevin Sheedy to first team duties!
Jamie Barlow
290   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:32:41

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Peter Reid would be great.

Do you need coaching badges for the job?

I know Duncan is at Everton but I don't think it's a proper paid job, is it?
Paul David
291   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:41:29

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Jamie am not sure if you are actually asking if its a proper paid job or damming verdict on Duncan's coaching ability.

As far as I am aware you need badges to do coaching at any level but dont think its something thats clamped down on.

I am sure the was a manager in the prem a few years a go with out any badges.
Michael Parkes
292   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:48:37

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Its Martinez for me. look at what Di Matteo is doing at Chelsea with better players at his disposal. I am certain if Martinez was to come to us, with the better players we have than wigan he could easily match if not better what Moyes is doing. While playing more attractive football!
Jamie Barlow
293   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:56:54

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Paul, I was genuinely asking whether Duncan gets paid?

Michael, you might be right but would our better players stay if Moyes went?
Michael Parkes
294   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:55:27

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Also, he started it all at Swansea before Rodgers was there.
Paul David
295   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:02:53

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Jamie,yeah it is a proper job and have you ever thought that maybe some of the players would be happy if he left.

Anything coming out of Goodison sounds like its read from a script so I dont think you can gather opinions from what players say.

If you was a footballer would you rather play shit negative football for Everton or enjoy your football at a club like Swansea?

You can never know but maybe a few players would breathe a sigh of relief if Moyes left.
Danny James
297   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:04:58

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I cant believe we are still talking about Martinez. Wigan were shit up until a month ago. For most of the season they have looked clueless and hopeless

Its like Man Utd talking about who will replace Fergie and not mentioning Moyes as a candidate. Then after Christmas as soon as Everton beat City, Chelsea and Spurs saying, "Jesus this guy is amazing, if he can do that at Everton, imagine what he can do with better players at his disposal. If he can take a club like Everton to 7th, at Utd he'd never lose a game. "


John Crawley
299   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:21:26

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Jamie you are talking bollocks if you think the Blackpool chairman would have swopped Holloway with Moyes. You are also ignoring the fact that Holloway had a major rethink about how he coached and managed a football team after he saw Swansea play under Martinez. He saw what was possible and realised that his approach had been wrong and he changed the way that he played. The result was that he had the most successful period he has had as a manager. I wish Moyes would change but there is no chance of that happening.
Paul David
301   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:31:03

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If its true about Blackpool only paying their players 5k a week then theres no way they take on Moyes.
Paul David
302   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:39:43

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Watching Barcelona
I know keeping hold of the ball for as long as they do is incredibly hard,something to be admired and they make it look easy but the commentators really need to stop wanking over every pass.
Drogba is disgusting,play acting like his needs to be sorted out.
Jamie Barlow
303   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:39:28

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Paul, nearly all the players at the club have re signed contracts under Moyes.



I don't think I'm talking bollocks John, they might play exciting football but I bet the chairman would have liked a few more years in the Premier league.
Jeremy Benson
304   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:47:05

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I reckon every team from position 9 in the league down would take moyes, all the way down to the hellenic league step 6.

So I don't think jamie was talking bollocks at all.

Paul David
305   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:47:38

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jamie
Yeah your right they have.I would say that is down to money though,our best players earn more with us than they would at any team below us.Half the reason we have no money to spend is because of the big wages.

Take money out of the equation and maybe some of the players feel the same as some of the fans.That they would rather play a creative style than a defensive one.
Barry Rathbone
306   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:42:56

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Danny James

Problem is you think this is flavour of the month shit, I and others have been mentioning Martinez from his Swansea recreation pre wigan.

If you mention someone who hasn't done 10 yrs in the prem and pound for pound consistently over achieves by raising the titanic with his cock - or whatever the caveat filled nonsense is - it's not discussed it gets dogs abuse,

It's like the hillside is guarded by a Moyes devotee lighting a torch screaming "the beast is lose!" "the beast is lose!" whenever another manager is mentioned.

BTW whatever happens at wigan he gets my vote, wigan should never win a match according to the financial argument - shouldn't even be in the prem on that basis.
Jamie Barlow
307   Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:57:52

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I don't think it's about money Paul. Baines, Fellaini and Jags could have got or get more if they moved.

They all re signed contract under Moyes, I think.
Paul David
308   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:01:50

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I disagree,Arteta had to take a pay cut to join Arsenal and out of the teams below I cant think of any that would match the wages we pay to the players you mentioned.
John Crawley
309   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:00:35

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Jamie, sorry but you are talking rubbish. Why do you think that Blackpool would have got more points playing a negative, defensive style of football?

The question you should be asking yourself is, given Holloway's resources at Blackpool (wage cap of 5k, record transfer 500k) would Moyes have managed to get them promoted to the Premier League? I see no evidence to suggest that, given those restraints, that he would have done. He didn't manage it at Preston.
Johnny Rainford
312   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:09:54

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Ultimately lads, all this speculation is academic, since we won't be able to attract any decent managers, because who in their right mind would want to take the job on? It means inheriting an ageing squad, having to deal with an inept board, but most depressing.. be given little..if any.. money to spend. This is what we have become to the outside world. A potential manager isn't going to be impressed that EFC are solvent... he only want's to know how much money he will be given to build his own team. A successor to moyes is going to be Kenwrights biggest ever challenge, simply because of where the club now finds itself after ten years of his own mis-management. And he'll fail. Miserably.
Paul David
315   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:31:51

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Jonny
I think we're still an attractive club to some managers.Obviously we're not going to get a Mourinho but someone like Lambert.He doesnt have much to spend at Norwich so not having much to spend at Everton doest make a difference.A big selling point of our club is a manager would expect to be given time if things dont go right straight away.
Peter Mills
318   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:41:01

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Paul 302, I agree with your post but that was a hell of a second half from Chelsea. If you are going to defend a 1-0 half time lead do it like that, with a tactical plan carried out with great discipline from every player.
Danny James
320   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:09:51

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Barry, its not about being a Moyes devotee, its about how you view what has happened to Everton under the tenure of Moyes.

I happen to think that getting Everton into the top 8 year on year is an achievement. I'm not happy that it is an achievement but nevertheless I accept it is an achievement

This has nothing to do with the way Moyes has somehow brainwashed me into accepting mediocrity as a lot of the MOB will argue. It does however have everything to do with the 15yrs preceeding the arrival of Moyes. The decline of a title winning big 5 club to that of relegation fighting club that had to chop and change managers on a regular basis.

It is not because of Moyes management that when he took over, these 15 years had seen Everton fall so far behind the contenders financially that to finish in the top 8 year on year is the maximum we can achieve with our resources.

Moyes is achieving this year on year, I dont therefore see the need to replace him. Why take the risk when the best we could achieve in the league is exactly what we are achieving now.

Paul David
321   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:45:39

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Thanks for that Peter but seeing as am in my mums at the minute and not mine she pulled rank and put the apprentice on so i missed the second half haha.
Jamie Barlow
323   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:25:47

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Paul, I don't think they'd go to teams below us.

John, I haven't said anything about Moyes getting Blackpool promoted. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. That's not my argument.

I think Blackpool would have stood a better chance of staying up with Moyes.

Moyes is good at getting the best out of average Joe players. He's proved it time after time throughout his ten years.

His first goal every season is to get 40 points and reach safety and he's good at grinding those points out.

How he does it and whether it's good enough for Everton is a different matter.
Paul David
325   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:51:22

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Jamie
No I dont believe they would move to other clubs below us,what I do think is though that the reason for players renewing contracts would of had a hell of a lot to do with the money on the table.If Moyes leaves then them players would still be on the same wages and some of them might be happier being at Everton under someone else who plays football.
Peter Mills
326   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:52:07

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I feel your pain Paul, I've obviously missed who has been sacked by Lord Sugar tonight but Martinez will clearly be the replacement for them.
Colin Grierson
338   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:54:09

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I am personally not bothered that much about what is achieved as much as how it is achieved. Moyes is lauded by the media and the pundits because of what he has achieved (league position) by those who think we have punched above our weight for the past decade.
I judge a team by the style of football that is played. I personally would take a chance on Martinez, Rodgers or Lambert purely for the style of football that their respective teams play and is advocated by these managers.

Paul David
339   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:32:49

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Colin
I feel the same but the pro Moyes supporters seem to feel that for the anti Moyes supporters like me its all about results,that another manager would get us higher up the table.

Some people might think he isnt doing a good enough job but I am happy with his general results but deeply unhappy about the football on show.
John Crawley
366   Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:47:21

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Jamie we'll just have to agree to differ, I don't think Moyes would have done a better job at Blackpool than Holloway and I don't think he would have got them promoted in the first place.
Due to visiting my friend who is a Blackpool fan I sat amongst the Blackpool fans this season when they played away at Middlesborough and you know what it was great! I enjoyed the football more than I have at any Everton home game this season. The team played with a verve and attacking confidence that I haven't seen in a long time at Everton. It really brought home to me how fucking miserable it is watching Everton play under Moyes.
Andy Meighan
509   Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:44:54

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Martinez seems to be flavour of the month at the moment along with Rodgers and Lambert. I'd personally say give him a couple of more years and see where he is then... in other words, a couple of seasons Prem experience.

These last 4 or 5 weeks Moyes has gone right down in my estimation after the March 13th and Wembley debacles. I could never forgive him for them. The man is a coward and even his biggest supporters are getting bored with his negative tactics and his man-management skills. Unfortunately, while the Corrie thespian is at the helm, there's more chance of me spending the night with the Pussycat Dolls.
Tony J Williams
705   Posted 20/04/2012 at 09:07:46

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"The man is a coward " - If he was a coward, he wouldn't have made it into Europe for a few years, got to a couple of semi finals and a final. he would never have beaten Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City in a game of football.

Boring and predictable, probably but not Cowardly. If he was coweardly he would have never made it into management in the first place.

Peter Davies
706   Posted 20/04/2012 at 09:31:57

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Spot on Tony J!

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