Whether Wigan get relegated or not Martinez has got to be worth thinking about as our next manager. His philosphy is there for all the world to see.
He goes for the win! He's beaten both Liverpool and Arsenal away this season, something Moyes hasn't achieved in 10 years! It's more than Moyes had done when we took a chance on him 10 years ago!
We know we aren't going to get a Hiddink or Mourinho so we have to look at lesser managers who have potential. It's what we've always done!
We've always given our managers time but the amount of time we've given Moyes is incredible given the fact he's bottled every big game of his tenure. He's had more than enough chances, more than enough money (especially in his own pocket)! to build a team to play attractive football and win a cup!
He isn't capable, he's losing fans (3000 down on last season). What more evidence do people want?!
Tommy Gibbons, Posted 16/04/2012 at 21:57:05
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574 Posted 17/04/2012 at 06:27:27
1-0, Wigan attack, moving the ball at pace. 2-0, 2-1 still the same, could easy be 3-1.
OK, I know where they are in the league, and it is still odds on Arsenal will win, but will the Wigan fans go home zombied up and numb from boredom? Jesus Christ, it might even get them a result.
Martinez beat United and showed Liverpool the respect they deserve: none. If Arsenal get 7, Martinez can still use the first half as a positive next game, even if his players are a bunch of nobodies.
I vaguely remember Homer simpson giving fatherley advice to Bart: "If you can't do it son, then don't try.' Words far too close to home. I hope Moyes is watching this.
578 Posted 17/04/2012 at 07:28:13
Or we could get a grip.
580 Posted 17/04/2012 at 07:59:05
There is no vacancy at Goodison. The managerial merry go round will swing into action when Redknap leaves Spurs and Di Matteo almost certainly departs from Chelski. Any Champions League team will want someone with experience but there will be at least one vacancy at a moneyed club in Europa league. All speculation - as there is no vacancy anywhere, yet.
582 Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:16:09
One word : Unbelievable.
586 Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:16:12
588 Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:24:41
590 Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:34:38
No mention of the rs, dismissed out of hand, Martinez is already mentally trying the job on for size.
595 Posted 17/04/2012 at 08:41:43
These six points gained will also count for something if Everton are battling to avoid relegation.
601 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:02:39
602 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:03:13
606 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:06:13
Last year, Wigan were 2-0 down at home to West Ham and they were dead and buried. Martinez made a substitution and Wigan won the game 3-2. They then had to go to Stoke and win which was something they'd never done. They won pretty comfortably and stayed up.
Last night they went a goal up at the Emirates and then looked for (and got) a second goal. That's what won them the game.
Thanks for everything Dave. You've stabilised this club and put some pride back but it's time to adopt a footballing philosophy were a player's ability to retain possession is valued more than running and harrassing.
607 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:13:16
609 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:12:46
You need to be realistic about where Everton are and accept that we're far, far better off than we were before Moyes walked through door in 2002.
623 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:02:50
As Nick (607) says. In fact it's more like flavour of the week these days!
I can recall many other names being mentioned by TW's "experts" over previous years that aren't mentioned any more. Funny that...
I am not opposed to the idea of another manager taking the helm at Everton but only if it is the right person and at the right time. We're (magnificent) 7th FFS!
625 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:08:07
632 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:13:15
God help us if blackburn beat chelsea to stay up, I can't suffer "kean for everton" posts.
644 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:17:33
Shouldn't it be celebrated?
Doesn't it provide hope?
To those saying Martinez is flavour of the month you clearly haven't been reading these pages for the last few seasons.
Anyone who thinks for themselves rather than regurgitating the lazy media stories or lives on malleable statistics can see Martinez has a vision and is brave enough to see it through.
As I said in another post it's unfortunate he's getting these results I was hoping he'd stay below the radar - not that Kenwright would have the vision to go for him in the first place.
645 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:13:33
Some people are happy in the same job for life, same routine, happy just to muddle along and are happy with their lot. Going through the motions. Nothing at all wrong with any of that. They are afraid of change, and new challenges change will present.
There are some though, who want to see what is around the corner, to break free from stagnation and staleness. I think Moyes is a good, pragmatic manager, who will get results. He will achieve results at any club - with the odd 4-0 thrown in when luck goes his way. He always tells us there is no money at Everton, we are underdogs. Well, if he has ambition, why doesn't he leave for bigger and better things. Maybe he realises he would be found out. He has found his level at Everton, and is the 12th highest paid manager in the world ! Add to that, no pressure in the most fickle of sports, of course he won't leave, would you ?
There will be many offers on the table for Moyes to manage on the big clubs if he is that good, we shall see.
Personally, I want to be entertained when I take my seat at Goodison, not sit through hours of turgid, unimaginative crap, and believe me, there has been plenty of that.
Whatever you think of Martinez, they are on the brink of relegation, and he went to the best footballing side in the League, played 4-3-3, and won.
Change can be good for the players, the outgoing manager ,the fans, and the club as a whole.
Why do people think we will be relegated if Moyes leaves, I have never been able to work that one out.
Look what Pardew has done at Newcastle, on a very similar budget to Mr. Moyes. Scoring for fun, playing three strikers at once from kick-off, not when we are a goal down with three minutes left.
10 years is enough, I couldn't take another 10.
655 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:39:53
"Whatever you think of Martinez, they are on the brink of relegation, and he went to the best footballing side in the League, played 4-3-3, and won" - Strange that, a team fighting for their Premiership life beating a better side....you never see that happen do you?
So because he has had a purple patch of games and won against Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal, the streak of 10 games - 4 points previous is forgotten because he raised his team to beat Arsenal...forget about the losses to Swansea, Man City, Everton, Spurs, Villa, Bolton, Newcastle, Fulham. Wolves. Arsenal, Man U, Sunderland, QPR, Chelsea and the defeats in the cup by Palace and Swindon?
658 Posted 17/04/2012 at 10:55:00
683 Posted 17/04/2012 at 11:44:25
687 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:11:39
688 Posted 17/04/2012 at 11:59:13
Martinez keeping Wigan in the prem year after year is a bigger achievment than Everton being best of the rest under Moyes.
Then when you consider the different styles of play,you really do have to admire Martinez.
For the people defending Moyes let me ask you this.
How often does Moyes make you proud to be a blue? Or come away from Goodison thinking that was a great game of football.
693 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:25:01
At Everton we are so one-dimensional, I can see why many are asking for the likes of a Pellegrino, Benitez or Martinez as we have turned full circle under Moyes and are becoming synonymous with an uninspiring brand of football from a bye-gone era. A different philosophy is undoubtedly needed if we are ever to make progress in the modern game.
700 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:43:25
706 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:48:45
1) Stick with Moyes and never get relegated but never win anything
2) Get an up and coming younger manager with a bit of flair and risk relegation but also have a great chance of winning a trophy.
I think most of us would like choice 2) but there are unbelievably some who think premiership survival is the ultimate goal. Well i have felt the exhilaration of winning the cup and the league and it is fantastic and thats what we deserve.
708 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:46:03
We need a fresh approach. Moyes will give us more of the same old tactics and keep faith with the same players, most of whom have proved they are past their best.
Other clubs have shown things can be turned around with a fresh face. Even Moyes did it when he first arrived but we are now mired in the mud and he has nothing new to say or offer Evertonians.
He is now in the same mold as Mike Walker, Gordon Lee and Walter Smith just going to the office every day and drawing good money for nothing.
713 Posted 17/04/2012 at 12:52:52
If you know your history it's enough to make your arse go... oh shit it's Liverpool or Silverware! Half the problem is that the negativity is deeper seated in the Club than anyone knows; it is only perpetuated by the thoughts we have on our manager and he is doing a good job of keeping that alive himself.
726 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:01:53
In his first season, they finished 16th with a poor 36 points, with a goal difference of -42, the worst in the premier league.
His second full season, they again finished 16th.
This is his third season, and they're...16th.
I'm not pro-moyes, I fancy a change too. But Martinez? Someone who can't get out of the bottom 5?
He spent £13 million last season. £15 million the season before. This season he spent £11 million.
727 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:04:52
What is obvious here, and to a degree understandable, is that many see our performance against the RS as an overall barometer of Everton as a club. Three humiliating defeats = Everton being in dire straits.
As much as I am sick to the stomach of not beating them and listening to their shit, I see it slightly differently. If we had gone out of the FA Cup in an earlier round and to lesser opposition (lesser even than the RS) and were now sat where we are in the league I think, ironically, many would be far less vitriolic towards Moyes. So what are we saying: that he has the audacity to get us to an FA Cup semi-final and then lose? How dare he!
Martinez et al may have been mentioned on TW for quite a while. That doesn't make them the right choice for our club. What about solvency? If bringing them in risks finishing lower in the league of even relegation then doesn't that reduce our revenue and put us under financial pressure? Who's to say that the club's creditors have not insisted on tying Moyes into a long-term contract as they see it as the only guarantee of some moderate level of financial stability. All ifs, buts and maybes but so is the conjecture normally offered on TW.
The time to change managers is likely to be at the point where investment and/or a change of ownership take place.
Going back to Martinez; I rate him very highly but I guarantee that if you rang Wigan and offered to swap him for Moyes then they would do it in a heartbeat.
733 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:16:55
He has been around for a while now, building up Sansea and then keeping Wigan in the EPL every year, a much more notable feat at Wigan than it is at Everton.
Villa moved for him last season and I think they will try for him again this summer.
We won't, of course.
We are stuck with Dave because no team above us would be interested in his "vision" of playing the beautiful game and as he ain't going to ba sacked, he will continue to stink the place out until he retires.
David Moyes.....our very own Dario Gradi.
736 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:22:32
744 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:27:25
Moyes himself would have no involvement in this process but he may be considered as a stable element which makes any investment more sound.
How can the creditors not have power? They decide the exact terms upon which an agreement is put in place and, as has been mentioned on here ad infinitum, as a club we do not have many options from a finance perspective. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case but if I was underwriting any finance, and I have experience of that, I would like at all elements, especially a manager that has produced a "consistent" performance from a business and that has been in place for a significant period, such as 10 years
745 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:21:54
Now how many people think Moyes will change one iota from his current approach? Why on earth does anyone think it will result in a trophy or more importantly creative attacking successful football? The issue is not whether it's Martinez or someone else the issue is how do we get rid of Moyes.
Before his appointment he was a 'failed' champoinship manager ie 2 play off finals and 2 defeats, as soon as it came to the big matches his philospohy and approach fails. Yes, he stabalised the ship, stopped us from being relegation candidates and improved on what we had before, but for the last 3/4 years all we are doing is treading water in a pool that is becoming more and more stagnant.
Is Martinez worth a gamble and would it be a worse gamble than Moyes was at the time? I for one am desperate for change, Martinez has Premiership experience, Moyes didn't. Martinez has won more games at the sky 4 in one year than Moyes has in 10 years. Moyes inherited an ageing and poor squad full of has beens used to fighting relegation battles - a defensive approach was critical for salvation.Matrinez would has 3/4 pieces of deadwood to get rid of and has a squad that will compete at the least in the mid table, and then he can try some attacking football.Moyes may be able to get rid of the same deadwood but would our approach change?
If we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always got - time for Moyes to go and give Martinez a chance
749 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:35:47
Also, you might be right about Wigan swapping Martinez for Moyes, if Wigan fans have a massive media affected view of Moyes, rather than watching Everton games. What about if we swapped for 6 moths then see if they want Martinez back afterwards?
Moyes is no miracle worker. He has the 8th highest wage bill in the premier league, with an average finish of 8th. He is also the 12th highest paid manager in the world, yet cant seem to motivate the team, play to win, or make any decent changes within a game.
750 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:40:47
753 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:41:35
Haha 12th in the world,how is that possible.
756 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:47:12
757 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:51:54
26 Dec 11 : PL away 0-5 lost
26 Feb 11: PL home 0-4 lost
20 Nov 09: PL away 0-2 lost
30 Dec 09: PL away 0-5 lost
22 Aug 09: PL home 0-5 lost
Yes, let's get martinez, brilliant against top 4 teams.
771 Posted 17/04/2012 at 13:59:40
"if we'd have gone out of the FA Cup in an earlier round or to lesser opposition..."
We've been dumped out of the FA Cup by the likes of Shrewsbury, Oldham and Reading during Moyes' tenure. We have had two good cup runs under Moyes. One where we capitulated in the final after going a goal up and Saturday where we capitulated in the semi final after going a goal up.
Are you saying that we should be thankful for one semi final place and a runners up spot over 10 years?
What happens the next time we get to a semi final? Are we going to be optimistic again or should we not bother turning up because we'll try and nick one and keep it tight and therefore know how it'll pan out?
775 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:06:41
Now I like Martinez and when in the pub I will voice that opinion but they say up until recent form they have not only being losing but this so-called "philosophy" of Martinez was non-existent. They claim they were playing poorly week in week out as he appeared scared of losing rather than going for a win. (Sound familiar??)
Now I know the media are telling people how well they have played all year but ill choose to listen to the people who have paid good money to watch them and they say the brand of football has been poor up until the last month.
Now I know they are in a good vein of form but let's be realistic Moyes is an exceptional manager albeit maybe overpaid, if we were to get rid there would be a queue waiting to snap him up.
776 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:09:09
Absolutely spot on. I couldn't have put it better myself.
I admire Moyes in some ways but I was brought up with football on the deck, ball players, attacking play. Moyes is against everything I believe in.
777 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:11:27
If he's giving Martinez so much money every season, Moyes will at least get more decent players to put the willies up so we ,ight have more of a chance.
779 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:14:21
780 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:15:23
789 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:24:20
There is however a silver lining somewhere - when pundits start coing out saying that Moyes needs to leave Everton to 'further his career' (chuckling whilst writing that), then this to me means that road is being paved for him to be able to leave without any supposedly guilty/jumping sinking ship feelings. Cannot really see any 'big' club coming in for him (e.g. Spurs/Chelsea) but if they do I say thanks and wish him all the best (bit like a prossy saying goodbye to a punter - neither quite sure who fucked who..).
If its going to happen end of this season, I just hope it happens early so we're not f'cked with having no time to sign anyone, especially given the distractions of the Euros and Olympics...
Martinez, Rodgers, Holloway, Jonny Foreigner - I really couldn't care as long as the guy has drive, passion and wants to play the game how it should be played - I.e. try to win games through scoring rather than making defense the prime (and sometimes only!) objective.
Please not Neville or Stubbs though!
807 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:16:05
- Alan Curbishley at Charlton ? Consistently achieved mid table finishes. Left Charlton. Now look at where the club lie.
- Tony Mowbray at West Brom ? Insisted on playing attractive football. Admirable but ultimately led to relegation after one season
- Ian Holloway at Blackpool ? Exactly the same fate as Tony Mowbray
Now I would love to see us playing expansive football with a ?you score 4, we score 5? mentality. It may be exciting but it will ultimately lead to relegation and the frightening prospect of financial meltdown at Everton.
I also would like to see Moyes be a bit more gutsy against the bigger teams, and agree that if we had really gone for it on Saturday, they wouldn?t have stood a chance. But let?s be realistic here, Moyes? league finishes speak for themselves, they have been an outstanding achievement. In my view he is a victim of his own success at Everton. Moyes has also shown that he can play attractive football ? look at the way we dismantled Sunderland and Swansea with ease.
I?m also fairly positive for next season in that I feel with a few decent additions (and a half decent start) we can really be a force. Whether Moyes stays or not remains to be seen. But as I said at the start of this post...be very careful what you wish for
809 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:17:32
812 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:22:11
- Grabs ball-bag and thrusts hips -
816 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:24:06
Do you really think without Moyes this team is worse than Wolves,Q.P.R,Bolton or Blackburn.
822 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:38:29
If Martinez does go to Villa, as he knocked them back last season and is refusing to sign a new deal with Wigan, it'll be intresting to see the outcome.
833 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:21:24
839 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:29:58
840 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:32:12
Its ironic that, because all of a sudden we went on a run, we were all expected to forget the shite that went before at the start of the season.
841 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:36:16
862 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:33:34
Bullens Road Hospital
I've A Whopper Avenue
Ward 1878 for the mentally Impaired Evertonian.
Bed 9 just next to the barred windows
Tel Liverpool 2Nil 3Nil 21
Do not think for one half minute, that if we get rid of Moyes, ( please please please please) , we will freefall into the conference. We have had much better managers than Moyes, and more importantly, a lot worse managers than Moyes, and yet we have been in the top flight since 1954, fuck give the answer away. That's right folks 58 fucking years, but Ohhh Noooo don't' get rid of Dave he's great he can do anything. He's a negative twat, and the sooner he leaves the better. Hopefully he'll walk then we can pay somebody £30/£40 Grand a week and save a few bob as well. I've had my season ticket renewal form on my desk since I got it in the post a few weeks back, and I'm sorely tempted to bin it. I know I won't because I'm like a crack addict, I know it's bad for me but I just can't stop. My preference would be Brendon Rogers, but right now I'd take fucking Roy Rogers with Trigger as 1st team coach.
Now where's that renewal form ?
883 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:19:18
Paul, this is taken from the match report from Moyes first game in charge:
"Only goal difference was keeping Everton out of the relegation zone before this game after a miserable run of one win from their last 13 Premiership matches."
The team Moyes took over was heading out of the Prem. I'm as pissed off as anyone else right now, in fact I very much doubt if I am going to renew my Season Ticket. But let's not forget how rubbish we were before Moyes steadied the ship.
I would be happy to see a new manager arrive and bring a new era of good football but I can still appreciate what Moyse has done.
886 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:50:06
There you go again, talking shite. Trigger is the most nagative horse I've seen. Talk about hoof ball...
889 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:44:31
I can just imagine the comments if Everton were where Wigan are a year from now
A Martinez 'apologist': "Okay, we've beaten Arsenal and Liverpool on our travels, play exciting football... what more to Evertonian's want?"
Critic: "Erm... try still in contention for Europe, avoiding a relegation dogfight for three quarters of the season and a goal difference that's not minus 26...
Martinez Apologist: Well, who else do you want - name one other manager to take his place who'll do as well as him... see... you can't
Critic: How about that young David Moyes - I see his team Darlington had an away win against Blyth Spartans...
891 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:08:33
892 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:06:09
Along the lines of "Who would you like to be Everton manager next season? Moyes, Martinez, Rodgers, Lambert or Adkins?"
Personally, I'd be plumping for Martinez. I like a nice plump. You can't beat it.
894 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:11:02
Not because I think he is the greatest manager ever but because of his coaching style.
Should Wigan go down, my opinion will not change.
Here is a man who believes in the passing game, possession and pace. Simple.
There are other managers out there who believe the same, Rodgers at Swansea (where Martinez started the 'revolution'), Wenger, etc.
I honestly believe if the current squad were better coached we could achieve an awful lot more than we have done in the past 10 years.
895 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:12:47
I don't know who are better prospective candidates - but usually there are plenty available in the summer. Personally I think we are in need of someone with enough kudos to be able to attract good quality players on loans and free's, and with experience of finishing higher than 16th in the premiership.
899 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:14:07
Yes the first few years he done a great job transforming us but you dont stick with someone purely out of loyalty.
Its like staying with the first girl who let you touch her up.
900 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:21:41
903 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:18:26
One thing about Martinez he used his spanish connections to lift Swansea and it has to be said the best Benitez transfers were spaniards.
Ring him now.....this minute....c'mon no waiting......want him here by friday.
908 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:13:56
IF Moyes was to leave, we could do a lot worse than seek out ex Villarreal boss, Pellegrini who built a very good, durable and successful team for a Club with very little money and a tiny stadium. Not given any time at Real Madrid, but still got the credentials for Everton.
But, actually, there is no vacancy at Goodison, so just conjecture.
909 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:22:11
So who are you plumping for. You gotta plump.
911 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:27:00
He is, no matter what some on this site say, a very good manager. Just look at the squad he has at Wigan and see how well they play. Now imagine our players playing that way. Sure, one or two would fail, but we could get rid of them and stick a few cardboard cut-outs on the pitch, same result!!!
913 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:26:57
This situation will continue until Arsenal recruit Moyes or Hibbo look-alike President Putin buys EFC and relocates us to the newly created KGB theme park in Kirkby.
Until then, the best chance we have for any improvement is starting next season with Yelavic. He is no doubt being taught how to defend as we speak.
914 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:43:01
If we have to look more realistically in the UK, then we'd do worse than hodgson. If we have to pick one for the future then I'd go for phil neville as player manager. And as a real wild card I'd give di canio a go over martinez any day.
915 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:49:34
Paul, I'm not suggesting we stick with Moyes out of loyalty. What I am suggesting is that
"Martinez keeping Wigan in the prem year after year is a bigger achievment than Everton being best of the rest under Moyes" is a flawed statement. When Moyes took over we WERE Wigan and when Martinez gets Wigan into the best of the rest position then a like for like comparison can be made. Or indeed, when Martinez affords Wigan the luxury of regular mid-table mediocrity, something their fans would love right now.
I am aware of the disparity in gate numbers and costs etc. so there is no need to point that out.
918 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:59:28
As self-appointed Plumpmeister, I will take your last answer as definitive. You have therefore officially plumped for Paolo Di Canio as the new Everton manager.
Well, that is something of a shock, to be fair...
922 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:08:30
925 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:10:18
Glad you got there before me.
The fact is that we can't attract a big name manager so we have to look to take one away from a smaller club than ours.
And by definition a smaller clubs expectations and means to exceed them will be less than ours.
The same way a "great" manager like moyes's results cant match up to Ferguson or Wenger.
927 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:22:21
929 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:23:35
Sadly it ain't gonna happen. We are stuck with them both (we all know who both are). Fast forward another 10 years, Goodison is bolloxed, Bullens shut down, a 45 years old Cahill hasn't scored for 9 years and Neville is gonna big up how we are gonna do Liverpool in the cup match. We haven't played them in 6 years since we were relegated.
935 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:25:14
We are only second to Arsenal in the number of seasons spent in the top flight. We have spent the last 58 years in the top division. We have a team full of international players. We pay the 8th highest wages in the P.L. We pay the manger the 12th highest wage in world football.
Yes you're right people - just like Wigan, Charlton, Portsmouth, Wolves, QPR and Blackburn, we will fall into oblivion if we change our socks.
I fucking officially give up.
960 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:51:11
Actually, poll is the wrong word. Plumpathon.
Please and thank you.
966 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:54:51
976 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:17:11
981 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:13:31
I've got one: Joe Royle! He's younger than Roy Hodgson and, obviously, Ferguson, and just a year older than Wenger. Unfinished business, innit. Plus, we might actually manage to win the odd derby with him back in charge.
I know, I know, it's a brilliant idea. [insert smiley face here]
987 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:31:10
No team has spent more seasons in the top flight than Everton
991 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:43:59
060 Posted 18/04/2012 at 07:39:50
069 Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:29:51
I believe that Everton would adopt a more expansive style but be less predicatble, and Moyes would ensure stability at Wigan.
So it probably gets down to whether we Evertonians are prepared to put up with more of the same but rest assured in the knowledge that we are guaranteed further time in the top flight, or are we fed up with the same dour tactics and prepared to take some chances in the hope of some entertainment and possible success?
The argument of what has Martinez ever done at Wigan is far too simplistic? I like his philosophy and think he might do a decent job at Everton.
Martinez v Moyes? It all gets down to your view on life.
By the way Dave, Whelan may well give Martinez more transfer funds than Kenwright gives Moyes this Summer but I'll wager Wigan's wage bill is far less than Everton's!
073 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:01:10
I for one am prepared to fall a few places in the league in the pursuit of entertainment.
Saying that I dont understand some peoples argument on here that by playing football we would automatically drop like a stone.
Theres a reason the best teams play football,not only is it entertaining but the best way to get results.
076 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:00:56
080 Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:41:26
"I have said many times that Evertonians have 2 choices: 1) Stick with Moyes and never get relegated but never win anything. 2) Get an up and coming younger manager with a bit of flair and risk relegation but also have a great chance of winning a trophy"
I more or less agree that these are the choices, however it should be added that (re point 1) there's is NO guarantee we won't/can't get relegated under Moyes.
For me it's not THAT difficult to imagine we start next season (or the one after) like we did this season, but instead of our famed second half of the season recovery, we just..continue on that way.
Remember, we now have fuck all left to sell other than players.
084 Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:42:31
Pellegrini is managing Malaga. No Chance.
Everybody else who supports Moyes. How steady do you want the ship to be?
He's a waste of time.
086 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:25:13
090 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:24:43
Unless of course Moyes is offered and fancies a fresh challenge, at an ambitious club
I see he's still 2nd favourite for the Spurs job, with Martinez surprisingly well out and behind the likes of Steve Bruce !
091 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:28:39
I agree, playing good football doesn't mean we would drop a few places, indeed, when we have played good football with the ball on the ground instead of Trigger hoofing up and out of the stable, we have looked a better side with good results. Re; Sunderland h+a, and when we knocked the ball about aganst Chelsea, City and Spurs. OK, we were under the cosh at times but we ended up happy and three points better off. If we had taken the game to Liverpool with the ball on the deck we'd have won, and I wouldn't be thinking of binning my season ticket.
094 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:33:52
Thats a good point I had never thought about,just because Moyes now has a reputation for making Everton "best of the rest" thats no guarantee it will always be the case.
Forset won the european cup and suffered relegation with the same manager.
I have thought for a while that we're going to be in big trouble next season unless theres massive change.Now we have Jelavic them worries have eased a little but I still want change.
178 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:22:18
What a loud of rubbish! No one else could do a better job for EFC than Moyes! Maybe they will be more attacking but they wouldnt finish in the positions he has for us.
184 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:30:59
Theres no way of knowing if anyone can do a better job than Moyes if we dont try and find out.
There has been plenty of times this season were i've thought "if only he would abandon that prehistoric formation we would have won"
Forget about who is or who isnt better than Moyes,i'm curious what you think about this.
Do you think this current side would better under this Moyes or a less negative Moyes?
186 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:45:55
If we are losing games under Martinez 4-3, 3-2 even 5-4 people will be asking "Why isn't he more defensive?" I think Moyes knows he needs to more attacking but then would we do better in the cup? Better against LFC? Well, we have been losing in the cups and to the redshite for decades so that's not an issue that has crept in under Moyes!
191 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:52:35
Sorry I just cant agree,against utd and the like I know we cant expect to beat them at their own game but he really doesnt have a go at the smaller clubs.
At home playing 451 with 7 defenders in the team like he was earlier in the season can not been since as anything other than negative.
Theres been about 5 games at Goodison this season were we havent had a shot at goal never mind score yet he still persists with one up front.
193 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:54:53
So why the fuck would we be relagated if one of them took over and tried to play more attacking football??? I thought we paid good money to be entertained, but I might be wrong.
199 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:53:28
Our team isn't as good as we think, it got better in January and low and behold we started playing better footy
201 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:24:52
That might be failure for other people but I have never expected us to do better in terms of final league postion.
The reason I started to change my mind about 3ish years a go is purely down to football or rather the lack of it.
The reason I now despise the man is because of his betrayal at Anfield closely followed up by cowardly performance on Saturday.
207 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:36:12
209 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:44:23
I agree with everything but there is one thing I would like to ask as its not the first time i've heard it.It cant possible be true that Blackpool had a £5k wage cap?
210 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:48:23
No wonder we have shitty starts, who would ever sack him ?
212 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:55:35
216 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:59:25
220 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:04:31
Moyes a miracle worker?Holloway makes Jesus's miracles look like smoke and mirrors.
223 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:57:04
Changing manager often is also counter productive; every new manager can make the excuse of them "not being his players", as by the time they've bought a few they're usually sacked, and the cycle continues. And changing managers is expensive too; contracts to pay off, compensation to be paid, etc.
I would hope that if we DO get rid of moyes (or he walks), that any new manager coming in would be given a similar chance - a good period of time to rebuild and move forward.
I've often thought that if I was a chairman (and I had the luxury of choice), I'd give every manager a proper chance; 3 years+ and make sure the manager knew that so could properly build for the future.
I mean, what is realistic for everton for the future? If we got a new manager for the start of next season?
I can't imagine as fantasy chairmen, that we could reasonably say much more than "we want you to finish top half or better each season, play good football. We want to play in europe again, and we want to have won a trophy within 5 years".
Everton's problems though are down to dosh and not enough of it. Hardly any club outside the top 4 wins a cup. We've been in one final and one semi under moyes. We've been in europe a couple of times.
So I just don't see what will get better if we get someone like martinez (change name to suit current favourite manager choice). Is a new manager really going to win us a trophy within 5 years, or get us into europe?
The only difference is that its a change. It's a bit like the arsenal supporters - many are calling for a change to wenger. IMHO, wenger has managed arsenal brilliantly, they are financially the soundest club in the land and will be in a position to take advantage of that when man utd have gone bust and the oligarchs have got bored.
We're a long way into a long term relationship and we are looking at passers by as if the grass is always greener. It isn't.
I'm not pro-moyes. I think I want change. But I doubt any change will ultimately be for the better.
226 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:24:25
227 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:00:36
I renewed my season ticket because I support the club, not the manger, board or players, because they come and go (some don't GO quick enough)! I also understand why people refrain from renewing and in some cases refusing to go to the game at all.
In fact I'd go as far to say, other than the ideological reasons for not going, the entertainment on show has been piss poor for years and 3,000 stayaways can't be wrong. It's time for a change, it's time for the club to take a chance again. Do the decent thing, Mr Moyes, and resign.
228 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:25:20
You do make some good points about things not working out and the new blaming it on the team not being his players ect.
But not changing manager out of fear of change is the same as Moyes not going for a win out of fear of defeat.
234 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:31:49
We could play a bit better football and be a bit more gung-ho, I agree. But will that get us into europe? A trophy? I doubt it.
Spurs went gung-ho against chelsea in the other semi and got battered. Wigan have conceded 8 and 9 in single games in the past 3 seasons. They regularly get mullered. A couple of good results against top 4 teams and all our eyes appear to have been turned. I have this nagging feeling that under a new manager, we might see that Moyes's "nick it by 1" against the "better" teams might prove to be a pragmatic tactic in hindsight.
But maybe we need change in order to appreciate that. Many a philandering husband has had a road to damascus moment...
As I said, I'm not "afraid". I'm also not trying to make a case for Moyes. I'm trying to genuinely understand in my own head, whether I should be more pro-moyes given that I can't logically fathom how we will instantly be better off. All it will d is cost us a few million quid in fee's that we could have used better on players.
We can't compete at the top 4 level anymore, we only have bottom half finances. Cup's are lottery's, we know that, you need some luck and good draws. How do we qualify for europe when man city and spurs have joined the party . That's 5 teams better than us.
235 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:51:21
Posters here are suggesting that Moyes is a failure because he has gone 10 years without a trophy. Some seem to feel that a new manager will miraculously have our average footy players playing lovely football and finish higher than Moyes has because of it.
The "careful what you wish for" soundbite is annoying but it's just as bad as all the ones suggesting that x,y or z will definitely have our cloggers playing tippy tappy football and will do so much better against the better sides away from home.
Both views are bollocks, as they will never be proven until Moyes leaves/is sacked
237 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:41:49
For me personally, I don't want to see change because I believe Moyes should be achieving more; I want to be entertained.
To say playing football won't get us into Europe, why not? Plus we will struggle to get into Europe playing the way we are now, as we've slipped even more down the pecking order.
240 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:50:31
But ? and I'm sure this will get panned ? maybe as Everton fans we're all a bit close to woods to see the trees. Other clubs, fans, media, and the public all think Moyes is doing one of the best jobs in the Premier League. It's only us Everton fans who seem to think he isn't?
I just don't think we have fully come to terms with (and accepted) our position in the new world pecking order of football finances. Quite rightly, we want more.
However, I am starting to wonder what the wider football community thinks about us and whether we are becoming too "god-given right...". I hope we don't become like Newcastle fans.
I am genuinely gutted about the state of football today, and money is ruining the game for the fans. But as it stands, cash wins, and until that situation changes with a new investor/owner, we are going to struggle, any manager is going too with what we have.
I think the time for a manager change is when there is a change in finances that means we can genuinely set down realistic expectations of glory.
243 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:57:09
We haven't been entertaining to watch since the 80s, unless you consider relegation battles entertaining.
244 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:03:26
These debates about other managers are largely pointless as no-one knows until it actually happens, and when Moyes does decide to leave (because I can't see him being fired), it won't be us on here picking the new manager. It will be whoever the Chairman is at the time and if it's still Kenwright, he will probably try and find a manager in the exact same mould as Moyes.
245 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:56:43
Just heard Felli saying we need to invest big time, now he knows we haven't got two zonks to rub together... is that his excuse to want to do one when we don't buy?
Anyway, watch us defend at Manure like crazy and then throw big Vic on 80 minutes gone. AMAZING cant wait
249 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:23:44
Like I said, I have no real complaints about Moyes's results, it's the way he goes about getting them I don't like.
Go get a season ticket elsewhere, what kind of argument is that? I am not expecting Neville, Cahill and Gibson to turn into Messi and Co but to see a decent standard of football isn't asking much.
251 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:24:44
I think Joe Royle's tenure was excellent until it started to unravel, especially considering the fairly poor players he had, but that one season with Kancheslkis and 14 brilliant goals will live long in the memory for me. The game were we beat Chelsea 3-1 at Goodison... or was that Walter?
Even under Moyes, there have been periods when the manager has had enough confidence in his players to let them off the tight leash and bask in the glory of what they can achieve when they are on song.
I really thought this season, that once we had 40 points and were making fairly good progress toward Wembley, Moyes would finally wake up. This had been pretty much manifested, starting at the Stadium of Light... but last week sadly saw a dismally depressing reversion to type.
256 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:31:37
The name in the frame now is Brian McDermott-haven`t you seen what he achieved with little old Reading last night?
And my old mates, the Zingaravichs,are going to fund his transfer kitty from now on.
Chris Samuelson (who has always been a Royals supporter)has promised to have the cash in place by 28 Feb... 31March....sorry 30April.
And...they are going to let Sir John Madjeski stay on as chairman!
Just so sad that we hadn`t the patience to wait for that cheque,
257 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:41:07
Its like an enigma wrapped in a riddle..or whatever it is.
My gut instinct is that Moyes will put the same team out and we'll try and nick it. We'll go 1-0 behind and that will be gameplan over.
But - some players could do with a change/rest, and may not be in the right frame of mind. It wouldn't surprise me to see anichebe start, hibbert has done no wrong, piennar will obviously be back and that itself will force a change.
The ethos may actually be "go for it" after criticism from the weekend and an attempt to lift the players. But we know from losing the final a while ago it had a detrimental effect and the heads might not be in it and it could be catastrophic.
I have no idea what the weekend will hold. The team, the tactics, the result. If we win, I expect many mailbag entries of "if only...". I wouldn't want to call it - it could be anything from 1-0 to 0-5....
259 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:52:51
260 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:52:03
I have been thinking about the same thing today,will he put kids in,change formation,attack but then I remembered how stubborn he is and any changes against utd would be like admitting he made mistakes against Liverpool.
So I would be very surprised if there was any type of change at all.
261 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:59:25
I'd love to see Barkley and Velios back in the reckoning.
There isn't much left to play for except placing prize money, so why not give them some game time and save ourselves some summer transfer money.
But you're right, I half-expect the same team to be put out. Which is a shame. Although in my mind, Distin should be the first name on the team sheet,
Of course, Moyes will probably replace Distin now...
263 Posted 18/04/2012 at 17:46:45
"Eugene, the logic that says just because Moyes hasn't got us relegated yet doesn't mean he won't can easily be reversed to say just because he hasn't won anything yet doesn't mean he won't"
I agree completely, logic (or the logic) DOES say that.
Unfortunately, what says he WON'T win a carrot, is not logic, but is HIS mentality.
A mentality that lacks adventure and imagination and believes football success can be achieved using a tactic of safety first.
Do I KNOW this?
Well I know it is a mentality that, when it has come close to winning anything (and this is a proper medical brain term) has shit itself.
Not logical in my opinion, but looks like we're stuck with it a while longer
264 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:08:30
267 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:04:02
Purely from a fan perspective it would make the 500-1500 quid a year we spend watching us a bit more bearable BUT more importantly that style is the most successful.
The best sides bar a few have all played expansive, attacking football. They usually combine this with a sound defence.
I'm not saying we could conquer Europe by passing it on the deck a bit more but I see no reason why utilizing our footballers to do what they do best, which is how most of them reached the top level, we wouldn't improve. Often results start picking up Dec/Jan and that coincides with a better brand of football.
We won't be relegated without Moyes and we won't win the league either. We may improve and we might even have a go in the games that mean something. I'm struggling to remember one that really, really mattered where he done us proud?
268 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:31:35
I been trying to say the same thing,for some reason and I dont know were it comes from but a lot of people seem to think playing football will cost us 10 points a year.
272 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:35:00
Personally, I don't think a more expansive style of play will necessarily work consistently, given the players that we have, and can afford.
BUT - I see no reason why we can't try and batter the living daylights out of half the premiership, whilst being more reserved and pragmatic against the in-form teams and top 4/away from home.
There is a balance to be won out there. At the moment we do seem to be losing it to being too defensive against everyone. I myself don't take offence when we try and sneak 1-0 against a top team, I get very upset when we do it at home to teams like blackburn whoever.
273 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:34:56
In addition to all of this the most successful team in Premiership history is Man Utd and Ferguson has always played attacking football. He sure as hell didn't win all of those trophies at Aberdeen as well by playing negative defensive football.
274 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:32:55
Kenwright will never sack him so we are stuck with Moyes unless a new owner comes in and wants a change... Fat chance...
275 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:41:56
277 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:43:17
I think the dream that Moyes will be replaced by a world-class manager are just that, a dream.
278 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:46:35
282 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:46:37
283 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:53:20
284 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:43:10
It's daft point oft used to belittle Holloway's and Blackpool's achievements.
They were favourites to go down and got promoted, they then got tipped to get the least amount of points ever seen in the PL and got 39, 29 more than most pundits suggested.
More importantly they never gave anyone an inch they never fought for and they never rolled over for anyone. All on a budget of magic beans.
285 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:01:30
286 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:00:58
I don't think anyone can deny Holloway is a good manager and the same goes for Moyes.
For all the talk of how exciting and carefree Blackpool were, they went down and I'm quite positive the Blackpool chairman wouldn't have thought twice about kicking Holloway out of the door if he had the chance of Moyes managing.
What I want to happen most (after Kenwright fucking off) is for Moyes to sort out the coaching staff. Its shockingly defensive and is the biggest reason we play like we do.
288 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:16:25
It was refreshing when dunc came back in to the fold last season. Now, I don't think Peter Reid is doing anything, lets get him back in as well. He was a tower of morality and strength at plymouth.
I don't know why sharpie is doing fan stuff, there's no reason why he can't get into coaching. Then al we need is a decent winger coach and we're away... let's say we promote Kevin Sheedy to first team duties!
290 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:32:41
Do you need coaching badges for the job?
I know Duncan is at Everton but I don't think it's a proper paid job, is it?
291 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:41:29
As far as I am aware you need badges to do coaching at any level but dont think its something thats clamped down on.
I am sure the was a manager in the prem a few years a go with out any badges.
292 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:48:37
293 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:56:54
Michael, you might be right but would our better players stay if Moyes went?
294 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:55:27
295 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:02:53
Anything coming out of Goodison sounds like its read from a script so I dont think you can gather opinions from what players say.
If you was a footballer would you rather play shit negative football for Everton or enjoy your football at a club like Swansea?
You can never know but maybe a few players would breathe a sigh of relief if Moyes left.
297 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:04:58
Its like Man Utd talking about who will replace Fergie and not mentioning Moyes as a candidate. Then after Christmas as soon as Everton beat City, Chelsea and Spurs saying, "Jesus this guy is amazing, if he can do that at Everton, imagine what he can do with better players at his disposal. If he can take a club like Everton to 7th, at Utd he'd never lose a game. "
299 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:21:26
301 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:31:03
302 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:39:43
I know keeping hold of the ball for as long as they do is incredibly hard,something to be admired and they make it look easy but the commentators really need to stop wanking over every pass.
Drogba is disgusting,play acting like his needs to be sorted out.
303 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:39:28
I don't think I'm talking bollocks John, they might play exciting football but I bet the chairman would have liked a few more years in the Premier league.
304 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:47:05
So I don't think jamie was talking bollocks at all.
305 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:47:38
Yeah your right they have.I would say that is down to money though,our best players earn more with us than they would at any team below us.Half the reason we have no money to spend is because of the big wages.
Take money out of the equation and maybe some of the players feel the same as some of the fans.That they would rather play a creative style than a defensive one.
306 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:42:56
Problem is you think this is flavour of the month shit, I and others have been mentioning Martinez from his Swansea recreation pre wigan.
If you mention someone who hasn't done 10 yrs in the prem and pound for pound consistently over achieves by raising the titanic with his cock - or whatever the caveat filled nonsense is - it's not discussed it gets dogs abuse,
It's like the hillside is guarded by a Moyes devotee lighting a torch screaming "the beast is lose!" "the beast is lose!" whenever another manager is mentioned.
BTW whatever happens at wigan he gets my vote, wigan should never win a match according to the financial argument - shouldn't even be in the prem on that basis.
307 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:57:52
They all re signed contract under Moyes, I think.
308 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:01:50
309 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:00:35
The question you should be asking yourself is, given Holloway's resources at Blackpool (wage cap of £5k, record transfer £500k) would Moyes have managed to get them promoted to the Premier League? I see no evidence to suggest that, given those restraints, that he would have done. He didn't manage it at Preston.
312 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:09:54
315 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:31:51
I think we're still an attractive club to some managers.Obviously we're not going to get a Mourinho but someone like Lambert.He doesnt have much to spend at Norwich so not having much to spend at Everton doest make a difference.A big selling point of our club is a manager would expect to be given time if things dont go right straight away.
318 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:41:01
320 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:09:51
I happen to think that getting Everton into the top 8 year on year is an achievement. I'm not happy that it is an achievement but nevertheless I accept it is an achievement
This has nothing to do with the way Moyes has somehow brainwashed me into accepting mediocrity as a lot of the MOB will argue. It does however have everything to do with the 15yrs preceeding the arrival of Moyes. The decline of a title winning big 5 club to that of relegation fighting club that had to chop and change managers on a regular basis.
It is not because of Moyes management that when he took over, these 15 years had seen Everton fall so far behind the contenders financially that to finish in the top 8 year on year is the maximum we can achieve with our resources.
Moyes is achieving this year on year, I dont therefore see the need to replace him. Why take the risk when the best we could achieve in the league is exactly what we are achieving now.
321 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:45:39
323 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:25:47
John, I haven't said anything about Moyes getting Blackpool promoted. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. That's not my argument.
I think Blackpool would have stood a better chance of staying up with Moyes.
Moyes is good at getting the best out of average Joe players. He's proved it time after time throughout his ten years.
His first goal every season is to get 40 points and reach safety and he's good at grinding those points out.
How he does it and whether it's good enough for Everton is a different matter.
325 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:51:22
No I dont believe they would move to other clubs below us,what I do think is though that the reason for players renewing contracts would of had a hell of a lot to do with the money on the table.If Moyes leaves then them players would still be on the same wages and some of them might be happier being at Everton under someone else who plays football.
326 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:52:07
338 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:54:09
I judge a team by the style of football that is played. I personally would take a chance on Martinez, Rodgers or Lambert purely for the style of football that their respective teams play and is advocated by these managers.
339 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:32:49
I feel the same but the pro Moyes supporters seem to feel that for the anti Moyes supporters like me its all about results,that another manager would get us higher up the table.
Some people might think he isnt doing a good enough job but I am happy with his general results but deeply unhappy about the football on show.
366 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:47:21
Due to visiting my friend who is a Blackpool fan I sat amongst the Blackpool fans this season when they played away at Middlesborough and you know what it was great! I enjoyed the football more than I have at any Everton home game this season. The team played with a verve and attacking confidence that I haven't seen in a long time at Everton. It really brought home to me how fucking miserable it is watching Everton play under Moyes.
509 Posted 18/04/2012 at 19:44:54
These last 4 or 5 weeks Moyes has gone right down in my estimation after the March 13th and Wembley debacles. I could never forgive him for them. The man is a coward and even his biggest supporters are getting bored with his negative tactics and his man-management skills. Unfortunately, while the Corrie thespian is at the helm, there's more chance of me spending the night with the Pussycat Dolls.
705 Posted 20/04/2012 at 09:07:46
Boring and predictable, probably but not Cowardly. If he was coweardly he would have never made it into management in the first place.
706 Posted 20/04/2012 at 09:31:57
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