Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

What happened to Roy of the Reds?

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Everton and David Moyes owe fans a full explanation of what happened to Royston Drenthe. Just as he appeared to be making a positive contribution to the future of the club, he disappears for two weeks, then he's suspended, banned from the training ground and left out of the most important game of the season. Now he may turn up at Liverpool next August.

It?s not enough to dismiss this as an internal disciplinary matter. His absence may have cost us a place in the final. Was he actually negotiating with Liverpool just a few days before the semis? Was there an illicit approach by Liverpool to secure his services at the end of the loan period? Was there another of those "gentleman's agreements?"

If only to put paid to the rumors and speculation we should be told what really happened and not have to wait for Moyes Memoirs. It?s not like we have a thriving local media determined to dig up the truth.
Jack  Molloy, Liverpool     Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:51:34

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Lyndon Lloyd
923   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:08:12

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The prevailing consensus ? so, rumour, yes, but from pretty reliable sources ? appears to be that his initial absence was down to marital problems, divorce, etc, but he's been fined for showing up late to training before.

The story from Saturday goes that he was late again for the team bus to Wembley and blamed his car breaking down, but someone else had seen it parked around the corner so he was rumbled. Moyes disciplined him again, told him he wasn't coming and the rest is history.

Again, no idea if it's true and I don't think the Club will or even should comment further, but I'd be intrigued to know how many fans (though, hindsight having perfect vision, I suspect I know the answer already) would say Moyes should have played him anyway and bollocked him later. That's not the gaffer's style, though...
Jeremy Benson
924   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:17:49

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It is an internal disciplinary matter, and should remain confidential to employer and employee.

That's not a kop-out. It's simply the way it should be done, and I'm surprised people think the opposite. I'm sure you'd all be running to your unions if your company disciplined you and then told everyone in your company what happened and released it to the press.

What's done is done ? we lost the semi-final. Plenty of navel-gazing is unsurprising, but I don't think we can blame the clubs PR/HR departments for the 11 players on the pitch on Saturday losing.
Keith Glazzard
928   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:21:53

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I can't be the only one to hope that its a purely internal matter which has been dealt with - and he starts for us next season.
Andrew Fair
932   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:34:52

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If EFC did announce why then most people on here would be saying "Why is Moyes airing EFC's dirty linen in public?" It's a good thing that we keep these matters in house, we do things a little bit better and with dignity at this club than most, and just because we are all in terrible moods as we lost the Semi, it shouldn't mean we jump on our club and manager for any old nonsense.
Andrew Presly
933   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:19:34

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Saturday was bigger than Moyes, Drenthe and both their respective bullshit.

The best approach for the club, ie, the fans, was to stick him on the bench as planned, rather than McFadden.

We're winning? Fine, punish him by not using him and then sacking him following the final whistle. Nobody would've even noticed or cared amidst the delerium!

But if it ever came to pass, as it obviously did, that we were losing or in a position where we needed some fresh impetus, ie after minute 24, sadly, but more realistically around about the hour mark at 1-1, its was unforgiveable, though hardly suprising, for Moyes to cut his nose off to spite his face like that, then watch the game slip away as it did.

And remember, Hibbert was about to come on at 1-1 BEFORE Baines pulled up injured. That is the mentality of the man.

I go with the people who are saying it feels like a death in the family. Anyone who left Wembley amidst the aftermath, especially, will agree that its going to take a long, long time to get over Saturday, if ever.

Back to the OP - it would start the healing process to see both of them sacked immediately, but its a sad endictment of the manager that I'd rather see Drenthe still here when I wake up again in August than Moyes.
Paul David
934   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:38:26

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There has to be disipline at a club but I cant help think he would be less harsh on a Neville or Cahill because their his type of players.

Its obvious over the years that he doesnt like flair players that can create something out of nothing but dont do the ugly side of the game.
Ryan Holroyd
937   Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:56:37

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I'm actually with Moyes on this one.

You can't turn up for work whenever you feel like it.
What gives Drenthe the right to behave like that? He's not Messi or anything is he? Just some jumped up shithouse. He came on in the derby game at Anfield and did fuck all. Well apart from costing us a goal.
Graham Mockford
938   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:04:31

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Paul there is a very obvious flaw in your argument. Phil Neville and Tim Cahill are model professionals who have never needed to be disciplined.
Drenthe whilst we don't know the details of the current situation would appear to be a loose cannon with a poor attitude.
I think I know who I would rather wear the royal blue shirt.
Paul David
941   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:14:50

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Graham 938
Yes I know Neville and Cahill would not behave like that,the point I was trying to make was that Moyes seems to have less time for flair players.
Oliver Molloy
942   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:04:43

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Paul,
Neville and Cahill are absolute model pro's..the lad Drenthe obviously is not-it's the reason we got him RM in the first place..
Him not being in the team or on the bench was not the reason we lost the match-we just were not good enough on the day simple as that.The game ultimately is about sticking the ball in the back of the net,if you get a bit of help or luck along the way that;s the way it goes,but teams make their own luck too.
We never looked like beating liverpool,you could tell after ten minutes that for us to win a good five or six of our players would have needed a stick of dynamite up their arses.
The manager per usual sent the team out to nick a goal and defend,and it is the manager that needs a rocket up his arse. Evertonians,even the most loyal of Moyes supporters are now starting to lose faith.
He must be braver end of story.
Paul David
944   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:24:41

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Oliver 942
I know Neville and Cahill are model pro's and I am not saying Drenthe should get away with what he has done.

What I am saying is Moyes has no time for flair players and they are usually the type who are not model pro's.

For me thats part of the problem,it seems the basis for picking the team has nothing to do with ability or form.

Its to do with being a good boy,how else can Neville and Cahill still be starting games when both are shit.
Peter Laing
946   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:29:22

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I wouldn't waste any time or space on Royston, an overpaid, ill disciplined disgrace to professional football. On the eve of one of the biggest games in the Club's most recent history he cannot even be arsed to turn up on time for the luxury corporate journey south, five star hotel treatment, Wembley experience and the five figure sum that equates his weekly salary. He let the manager, his team-mates and most importantly the fans down when he was needed most. Liverpool are welcome to him, good riddance and I hope he is as successful there as his gangsta rap mate Markus Babbel.
Oliver Molloy
950   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:35:21

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Paul,
Cahill has definetly lost the edge to his game.He is 32 and has been a bit of a warrior for us,but he has not got 90 mins in him these days.
Neville is a leader and is Moyes Lieutenant if you like on the pitch-we both know he is not the best player in the world,but every good team has players like him.
Even Neville stated that "perhaps we could have been a bit braver"...that tells it all for me
Peter Laing
951   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:45:08

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Correction Ryan Babbel, the other Babbel was a good pro even if he was a red !
Jack Molloy
957   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:20:55

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But Lyndon, doesn't it add an extra dimension to the mystery if he is actually going to be playing for the Dark Side next season? His marital problems, if that's what they are, are not our business, clearly. If he was the milkman or the binman, his disciplinary record wouldn't be our business but he's neither. He is a highly paid athlete, a public figure, and his absences, suspension and possible Crossing o' the Park in this context raises all kinds of unanswered questions. If Steve Pienaar was suspended for an unstated disciplinary offence and suddenly there was talk of him signing for Liverpool wouldn't you want you know why, how, when, where and for how much?
Paul David
963   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:52:49

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Oliver 950
Do either player deserve to be in the team?
Both,especially Cahill are holding us back and I cant help think both are in the team because Moyes loves their attitude and nothing else.
To me that is a bigger crime than Drenthe turning up late
Graham Mockford
968   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:58:16

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Paul (#941) ? I know what point you were trying to make but using a scenario to support that argument that is completely specious doesn't help.

You can quite rightly assert Tim and Phil are shit; personally, I disagree and would still see them as part of our strongest eleven.
Paul David
972   Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:58:29

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Oliver
Let me just say I would have disciplined Drenthe as well,probably after the semi though.
We have gone off the original point I was trying to make.Probably wasnt a good idea to use excisting players as an example,let me try again.
If Moyes signed 2 players,one a hard working but average centre half.The other a very talented left winger with the ball but not with it.
Now if both turned upto training late I honestly believe Moyes would come down harder on the winger just because he is a flair player.
Kevin Sparke
974   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:10:24

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Paul David - you really, really believe this?

What's the weather like on your planet?
Paul Doyle
979   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:14:27

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Who's arsed? Anyway, this beaut was swanning round the Hilton playground the other week, swigging out of a bottle of champers... another Van der Meyde. I have no time for ginger nuts so the pair of them can fuck off together. Sergeant Major Moyes would have had him trying to defend like fuck anyway so why moan about what might have been?
.
Noel Lynam
980   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:05:35

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"It is an internal disciplinary matter, and should remain confidential to employer and employee.

Thats not a kop-out. Its simply the way it should be done, and I'm surprised people think the opposite. I'm sure you'd all be running to your unions if your company disciplined you and then told everyone in your company what happened and released it to the press."

And what if the manager of your company released a statement publicly blaming individual errors by you and another employee (let's call them Sylvain and Seamie) for the company not achieving a project target, in the process absolving himself of all blame for the same failure. Should Sylvain and Seamie run to their union for that?

What if other employees, shareholders and stakeholders believed that same manager was at least partly at fault for excluding another employee from that project for what appears to be a minor disciplinary matter.
Paul David
983   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:22:08

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Kevin
Yes I acually do.Its human nature to take a dis-like to some people and not others for no good reason.
Moyes in 10 years has hardly signed any flair players even though these players win games.While he cant get enough of hard working but limited players.
Domino Darkley
985   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:28:57

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Noel Lyman....bravo.
Paul David
989   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:32:56

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Graham
I will leave my argument after this as maybe I havent explained myself well but is it so hard to believe that a man who sends his players out to not get beat would treat the flair players differently that dis-obey his orders by trying to attack rather than defend.
Barry Rathbone
994   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:27:39

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When Drenthe came you immediately thought WTF is he doing here?

He has skill, pace and is direct with a blistering shot, what jiggery pokery is Moyes up to here?

Whatever demons infect the kid Moyes didn't just show him the door he decided to show him who was boss.

Didn't start him and subbed him regularly even when he was the most potent weapon on the pitch.

Without knowing the full facts if Drenthe is a nut surely he should have been shipped out pronto.

If he's just a rebel showing him "who's boss" is as effective as throwing petrol on a fire.

Either way doesn't seem good management to me.
Jack Molloy
996   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:48:56

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There's a vast difference between being suspended on a matter of sheer disciplinary principle - being late for the team bus trip for example - and being suspended because you are in talks to join the team you are supposed to be playing against in a big upcoming game. I for one for would like to know which it is. Football players don't work in private. They work in public in front of millions of people around the globe. Their errors are public. Their achievements are public. It is ludicrous to claim the privacy due an office worker or a factory hand.
Ray Robinson
000   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:03:13

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I don't know the full facts but if Drenthe failed to act professionally just before an FA Cup Final, he deserved to be disciplined and this is a poor excuse to have a go at Moyes. There are plenty enough valid reasons to criticise Moyes but this doesn't appear to be one of them.
Danny James
001   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:06:43

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Drenthe can go fuck himself
Kev Johnson
002   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:10:16

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Well said, Ray. It's Drenthe who seems to have screwed up here, not Moyes. If players can't show the club proper respect then we're best rid of them.
Joe Clitherow
005   Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:40:45

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Paul

You could say Moyes has signed "hard working but limited players" instead of "flair players" (I don't necessarily believe this trite statement in the first place) because he prefers the type.

You could also say that flair players who win games regularly and are consistently effective cost an absolute fortune and he's barely got a pot to piss in.



The genuine flair players who are also good pros and win you trophies are rare and end up at the richest clubs, so other clubs must take a chance on the flawed talents who often end up being flops. All the great players who have built great careers over time have had, or have added, discipline to their raw skills to become great.

Moyes' record in either developing players who are raw or with players who have failed to reach their potential at other clubs is actually pretty good - Pienaar, Arteta, even Gravesen who didn't do it at the same club unitl he added some discipline to his game.You could add Baines, Jagielka, Lescott and probably Distin to that list too. My opinion is that Drenthe could be a vastly more effective player if he added discipline to his game. Sadly it seems like he has chosen not to and I'm pretty sure that will be his regret.

Take your choice but I prefer Occam's Razor to a belief you may be more comfortable with because that is actually what you want to believe.
Ciarán McGlone
006   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:20:17

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It's not the first time Moyes' has put his matron routine in front of the good of the team.

Drenthe is/was our most creative player and should've been on that pitch - even if he'd burnt Goodison down.

Another cracking decision from the moyestro. Please go.
Paul David
010   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:21:41

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Joe
Of course the best flair players are at the biggest clubs but there are decent flair players about.
Moses at Wigan,he might not produce all the time or track back but he would be worth more points over a season than Cahill who works hard but contributes next to nothing when in possession.
I feel Moyes values perspiration over inspiration every time.
I like hard working players but surely theres also room for players that can do the unexpected and get the fans on their feet.
Joe Clitherow
015   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:46:15

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But you can't prove that though Paul.

Wigan with Moses have less points than Everton with Cahill. What happened to N'Zogbia at Villa? At the start of the season he was like the second coming but he's not exactly pulled up any trees.

As it goes though I agree with you that unpredictability is missing from our team.

My major gripe is that nearly all of our players want to take an extra touch instead of hitting first time. That's what I'd understand by safety first, not failure to cross the halfway line.

Jelavic doesn't take two touches, and neither does Gibson mostly and I think that's been a factor since January.

I also think we'll see less of Tim next season, but I also think he will be rightly regarded as an Everton great in years to come. All the moaning about him is deja vu with Peter Reid. His treatment in his last couple of seasons from the crowd was shocking.
Graham Mockford
016   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:52:46

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Paul 989
You seem a decent guy so my apologies if I have been a but...
I would love to know how you know DM 'orders' his team to defend not attack. His tenure has been characterised by a team spirit based on hard work and togetherness. They are qualities once held in high esteem but in today's modern culture of entitlement and quick fixes I guess it's a bit out of fashion. Whilst I want a trophy like all on this site I for one am proud of the values this club espouses, some would prefer success whilst employing the likes of Balotelli and Tevez, not for me however.
Graham Mockford
017   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:02:46

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Second line should read ' a bit curt but'!
Tom Bowers
020   Posted 17/04/2012 at 22:32:03

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Many clubs sign loan players and others who are having problems with their existing clubs and these are usually misfits. Skilful as they are, players such as Drenthe, Barton and Balotelli etc. cannot seem to stay out of trouble no matter wether it is on the field or off and are likely to become surplus to requirements eventually.

Sadly for Everton the Drenthe affair came at a crucial time as I believe he would have played in the last few games and could have made a difference.
John Caton
022   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:08:27

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Guys and Gals look at this link and Martinez comments.

Says it all for me.
Lyndon Lloyd
023   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:08:15

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Jack, I'm not sure the Liverpool speculation (and that's all it is as far as I know) and Saturday are connected, unless, I suppose, you're suggesting he deliberately turned up late so he would miss the game?
Paul David
027   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:04:18

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Joe
No I cant prove it and your right about N'Zogbia.
I'll be honest I really wanted us to sign him but glad we didnt now,some players just dont produce like they did at their old club for no reason at all.Its not a science and even Ferguson gets it wrong from time to time.

Graham
Its ok am a big boy now and there would be no point in expressing opinions on here if everyone thought the same.
The defend over attack,well I say that by the evidence I see at Goodison week in week out.
Believe it or not I also want to see players work hard,I just dont think you should expect a winger to do as much defensive work as a full back.
I would love every forward to be like Pienaar whos natural game is to do both but that is asking a bit much,so if I had the choice of a defensive winger or a flair winger I would rather have flair.
Mark Riding
031   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:25:26

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Where are the rumours? The speculation? Has he been sacked ?

Surely someones dads, boss has got a window cleaner who saw him going somewhere?

His shirt number is still on the official site...

We are big boys... a bit of the truth and we could make our own minds up... what's to lose?
Graham Mockford
035   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:25:28

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So Paul a couple of questions

Trevor Steven or Anders Limpar?
Peter Reid or Mikel Arteta?
Duncan Ferguson or Duncan McKenzie?
Tim Cahill or Royston Drenthe?

Flair is a load of bollocks, give me effectiveness every day
Paul David
037   Posted 17/04/2012 at 23:43:00

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Graham
I am obviously not as old as you as I was only a kid in the 80's so cant comment on them players but from what I have been told i'll ask you this.
Sheedy or Osman?
Barry Earley
039   Posted 18/04/2012 at 02:15:35

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Graham and Paul,
I'll take Tricky Trevor, Duncan Disorderly, Reid, Cahill, and Sheedy please.
Can I also have Southall, Stevens, Heitinga, Ratcliffe, Baines and Carsley?
Barry Earley
040   Posted 18/04/2012 at 02:28:05

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Hehehe,
Southall in goal,
Heitinga and Ratcliffe in defence.
Stevens and Steven on one wing, Baines and Sheedy on the other.
Reid and Carsley in midfield,
Can you imagine Ferguson and Cahill in their prime up front?
Ah, if only.
Michael Kenrick
041   Posted 18/04/2012 at 02:27:30

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Mark (031), and I'm guessing here, but all it can be is... face. The Club is fearful of losing face, so they pedal this old sad line about it being an 'internal matter', and they will make no further comment.

In other words, yes, we have great players and they will spout crap on demand via the official website as needed to keep the punters happily coming through the gates and buying their season tickets.... until there is something aundignified and unsavoury that we must all be ashamed to even talk about. Then it's an 'internal matter' suddenly, even though it directly and hugely impacts on the external perception of said player, and by extension the club. And is thus of keen interest to many of the club's followers.

Some will raise the 'dirty linen' caveat at this point. I don't accept that and here's why: This is still fundamentally a spectator sport, and the players have been elevated to becoming public property in terms of being highly visible personalities. What exactly is the difference in 'dirty linen' terms between saying "We have soiled sheets but they are being cleaned internally." versus "We have soiled sheets, it was caused by a wine stain after a player arrived late. Drinking before training will no longer be permitted."???

Why not just come out and explain what he's done that was so shocking, why he's being disciplined, how much he's been fined, what is future is, or if it puts his future in jeopardy, and be done with it. Does it all really need to be kept so secret?

Of course it doesn't really matter... none of it really matters. But why do they have to be so precious with us? Why not just be straight up and honest? After all, isn't that what our wonderful manager is all about??? Dignity and Integrity. My arse.
Kirk McArdle
043   Posted 18/04/2012 at 03:10:19

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Drenthe has been trouble at every club he has played for including the loans in Spain from RM.

Defo a case of a move to a big (huge) club too soon in his career. Jumped up charlie if you ask me.

If those fools across the par want to pay him £80,000 for sitting on the bench then let them.

Just another mercenary footballer holding clubs to ransom.

Would prefer the money towards his wages to be part of a package to bring Pienaar back. This is what we was missing during 2011 when he was sold.

Apart from Jelavic (who is actually scoring goals!), the outlet of Pienaar has improved the team play since he came back in January.

Oh, and is Gibson our new Carsley??
John Maxwell
044   Posted 18/04/2012 at 04:45:29

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It clear Drenthe has a problem with authority, the system whatever you want to call it.

Anyone remember when he scored against QPR away ? He ran straight over to the bench and hugged our keeper (I think) totally blanking Moyes.

I dont know what his real problem is, when he joined I was excited because the bloke had pace and could beat a player or two, my god haven't we been crying out for that ?

Slowly he has become disillusioned by not getting his way and has rebelled.

What a dick, he failed at Real Madrid and other clubs and gets another chance and fucks it up.

Fuck off Drenthe.
Anto Byrne
047   Posted 18/04/2012 at 05:36:11

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Too much of a liability for the family Everton. Moyes had options on the Bench including Denis and Faddy. Cahill and Magaye not at the races. It may have changed the game and it would have been a positive change telling KD that we're going for it and Denis throwing a bit of muscle around and putting pressure on their keeper.

No, we surrendered because Moyes is fucking clueless and a negative boring dour dull twat.
Roman Sidey
051   Posted 18/04/2012 at 06:49:51

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So we know that neither Neville nor Cahill have never been late to training in their time at the club?
Peter Bourke
054   Posted 18/04/2012 at 07:01:43

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Roman, knowing Tim Cahill and Neville i would say that is correct. Both absolute professionals. If Roysten had half their professionalism and committment he might just earn a bit of respect.
Noel Lynam
059   Posted 18/04/2012 at 07:34:49

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"Anyone remember when he scored against QPR away ? He ran straight over to the bench and hugged our keeper (I think) totally blanking Moyes."

I remember that John, in fact I commented at the time that there seemed no love lost between the two. However from memory, any blanking was as much Moyes blanking Drenthe as it was vice-versa. Moyes didn't even look at him.
Bob Willis
064   Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:06:35

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My problem with Moyes is not his handling of Drenthe but his strategic/tactical mentality to take us forward.

Drenthes will come and go - this one happens to be around now - but neither he nor Moyes nor Kenright are bigger than the CLUB.

There are many examples
where 'disciplinary action' is justified at Everton. Perhaps we should start at the top, but there will be little chance of that.

All I can say is that Moyes will have a summer of very deep soul searching, unless he has a thicker hide than I think he has.

Drenthe? Give it twelve months - whoever he plays for - and we'll be asking 'Who'. They come and go.

Flair alone does not make a top-class athlete.

Graham Darlington
071   Posted 18/04/2012 at 08:57:37

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Poor man's Balotelli
Tony J Williams
109   Posted 18/04/2012 at 10:40:13

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Where was Arteta's punishment?, where was Baines punishment? Where was Gravesen's punishment? etc

Apparently if you are a player with skill you get punished more regularly than a grafter.....

Where are the other instances of a player going off the rails, apart from Shandy Andy?

"Some will raise the 'dirty linen' caveat at this point. I don't accept that and here's why: This is still fundamentally a spectator sport" - The sport is the part for spectators, not what goes on behind the scenes.

I do believe that he should have been on the bench and USED, if he helps us win the game, punish him after with a fine and not playing the remianing games but still use him as every employer uses their employees
Anto Byrne
112   Posted 18/04/2012 at 10:28:35

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We have 5 games left and do you think Moyes will have a go at Old Trafford? Will we see any of the youngsters? Coleman at right back? Barkely in the middle with Fellaini and Gibson and Vellios and Jelavic up front?

Dont hold your breath .... they might get a run from the bench for the last few minutes when we are 4-0 down with Rooney quietly slotting in a hat-trick. Unless players get the big stage, they ain't ever gonna learn. WTF was McFadden doing on the bench if Moyes had no intention of playing him, even for half an hour? I give up on this idiot.
Andrew Fair
128   Posted 18/04/2012 at 11:33:38

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Roman, Neville was in on Monday training with the young reserves! Even though the 1st team was off due to the semi! Proper pro and good football bloke, would never turn up for training late. I would assume thats the same for Cahill.

Anyone blaming Moyes for this is out of their mind, he took a chance on a flair player (we all said he should sign a few more flair players) and it hasn't worked, not because of Moyes but because of Drenthe. Ship him over to the Chite and let him, Carroll and Suarez taint their "great club" again!
Terry Hayes
143   Posted 18/04/2012 at 12:27:41

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Just had a quick glance at Alan Stubbs's comments about Ross Barkley: "We're working on the defensive side of his game" ...

FFS, I know he has to have this in his game but I'm sick to death of hearing the word 'defence' when I read about Everton. Just for once, it would be nice to read "we are working on the attacking part of his game" ...or is that me being a moron.
Sean McCarthy
151   Posted 18/04/2012 at 12:56:25

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Andrew at 933....."And remember, Hibbert was about to come on at 1-1 BEFORE Baines pulled up injured. That is the mentality of the man......."

This simply isn't true and is just another dig at Moyes. I'm not his biggest fan and part of me thinks maybe the summer is the time for a mutual parting on good terms but don't just make things up for the hell of it!!

From my seat in the stand, it was clear that Baines was struggling after stretching into a tackle near the half-way line and was unable to get back into position. He even waved towards the bench to indicate he was in trouble. At that point, Hibbert was sat down and told to get stripped. The other subs were warming up near the corner flag. It was never going to be a tactical sub and I assume would have seen Neville go across to LB and Hibbert slot in at RB. Obviously this all changed with the goal.

So get your facts straight, Andrew, and dont just jump on the 'tactically inept' bandwagon.

As for the Drenthe issue...I don't care who he plays for next season as long as it's not us. He's a liability and if the RS want him then let them crack on.....
Howard Don
160   Posted 18/04/2012 at 13:13:07

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The guy's got great skill admitted but he's been a liability both on and off the pitch here and everwhere else he's been. Whatever else you may say about Moyes, his track record at putting players whose careers have gone off track back on course is pretty good, but I honestly think this guy is beyond salvation. I'd love Drenthe to have turned himself around but honestly I don't think he'll be anywhere near top flight within two years. Hope I'm wrong for his sake but for me he's an idiot with skill and pace and he'll lose the pace soon with his lack of application and the skill will follow. Let him go across the park if they really do want him which I'm not convinced they do.
Andrew Fair
175   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:07:04

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Michael, the majority of the top clubs don't let info out into the public domain. Clubs only let fans and the press know what they want them to know. It's not just our club that does this, Fergie always keeps his business in house and it's the right way to do things! Anyone criticising the club or Moyes for not spilling the beans is on another planet. It will probably come out at the end of the season, but the reason will come from Moyes's mouth and its how it should be!
Paul David
181   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:26:43

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Andrew 175
I agree disciplinary matters should be dealt with privately but to be fair this matter is hardly private no more.
Andrew Fair
190   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:52:57

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Paul, it's not private anymore though as Twitter/Facebook runs the world nowadays and everyone knows eachother's business before they do! (My mam knows where I go on weekends before I even know as she reads my girlfriend's Facebook.)

But would we rather Moyes coming out and embarrassing himself like Lennon at Celtic or Old Man Ken over the road, and letting our club's business be plastered across the papers/web in a shameful exercise?
Simon Hermansen
192   Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:50:57

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Couple of points...

If all this was going on before the team set off for Wembley, did it have an impact on the other players?

Tend to agree with view that DM should've stuck him on the bench, knowing we had no other creative alternative, should we need one last 20/30 mins, then give him a rocket after.
Tony Cheek
196   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:03:18

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if the rumours are right about about Drenthe being late for both training and the bus to London then it is not Moyes, we should be mad at.

There are rules for the players and, if you break those rules, then there are consequences. If Moyes lets one player get away with it, he and his rules are not worth shit!!

It is DEFINITELY not Moyes who let us down when it concerns Drenthe. He let us down BIG TIME, and the fans should also let him know it. He will not be here next season, and I don't give a shit if he moves across the park... in fact, he is the kind of player they would snap up, and wouldn't surprise me if they bent every rule for him...

Reading between the lines, DM has given you more than one chance. Sorry, you've blown it. I would rather see some of the youngsters get a chance!
Mark Stone
197   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:03:22

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Terry, yes.
Andrew Presly
204   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:32:10

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Sean - I saw no evidence Baines was injured until he went off just after they scored on 87 mins.

Prior to that, Moyes was dithering over whether to being Vic onfor about 10 mins from 70-80 mins.

Then at about minute 80, incredulously, Hibbert was being changed and (slowly) readied to come on. Again I saw no evidence Baines was injured at this point.

5 more minutes of dithering over whether to bring on Vic or Hibbet gets us to about 85/86 mins, Coleman's foul, their goal and Vic on for Baines.

I had a bad hangover and was almost too nervous to watch by that stage but that is the basis for my earlier comment. If I've got any of the above badly wrong, I'll stand corrected.

None of it matter now anyway, does it? Also, there is no "bandwagon" about Moyes being tactically inept, its just that at times, like Saturday, he is, eg, the Felli / Cahill swap 2nd half, Osman STILL playing on the wing, etc etc
Terry Hayes
205   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:35:02

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Well, that's cleared that up then... cheers Mark.
Terry Hayes
218   Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:35:02

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Well that's cleared that up then... cheers, Mark.
Andrew Fair
231   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:32:35

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Baines, was defo injured. It showed it on a reply that he over stretched and then signalled to bench! He also tried a sprint and failed.
Kevin Sparke
241   Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:47:22

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Drenthe is hauled into Moyes's office for taking the piss once too often.

Moyes: 'So Royston - you've just had two weeks off compassionate leave and you choose to fuck us around again by turning up late for training - do you actually want to play for this club?"

Royston D: 'But Mr Moyes after I'd been talking to King Kenny - he told me to get the 10A to Finch Farm and I ended up in St Helens'

Moyes: 'Do you expect me to believe that? Piss off Royston and never darken the door of Goodison again'...

Moyes looks over to Steve Round...

Moyes: 'I fucking hate flair players - I'd have let him off if it had have been Tony Hibbert - he's lucky he's not Iniesta or Messi or I'd be demanding the return of the death sentence'
Jack Molloy
322   Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:41:38

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Lyndon, I'm suggesting that turning up late in and of itself may not be the central cause and is not exactly a capital offence but that negotiating to join a team you are about to play in a semi-final is a serious conflict on interest and a serious ethical breach by Liverpool (if it happened). It's because there is only speculation to go on that is these things should be out in the open with facts presented on the table and out in the sunshine where informed judgments can be made. We are not children. We can handle the truth. Everton should give it to us. If Moyes can't give us a trophy he can at least give us the courtesy of some candor.
Lyndon Lloyd
331   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:11:04

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To which, sadly, I'd say:
negotiating to join a team you are about to play in a semi-final is a serious conflict on interest
Welcome to modern-day football
a serious ethical breach by Liverpool
That shower proved with the Suarez-Evra scandal that they have no ethics. Nothing would surprise me.
Paul David
332   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:14:38

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Has it been comfirmed that Drenthe is in talks with Liverpool or is this still rumours?
Lyndon Lloyd
336   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:21:21

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Has it been comfirmed that Drenthe is in talks with Liverpool or is this still rumours?
No, it's just Internet talk at the moment. I've also read that a source at Liverpool says they aren't interested in him. We'll know soon enough.
Colin Grierson
341   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:37:58

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Definite ability but a definite liabilty. The RS are welcome to him.
Roman Sidey
342   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:52:28

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So people ASSUMING that Neville or Cahill have never been late to training is enough for everyone to believe it?
Ciarán McGlone
343   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:46:38

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Some balls being talked on this issue.

Moyes' job is to win us things...if he let someone being late for a fuckin bus get in the way of that, then he is a egotistical twat. End of story.
Paul David
344   Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:58:48

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Roman
I've tried that argument already and got shouted down.That maybe if Neville turned up late it would not be as big a deal in Moyes's eyes because he likes them as players.
Peter Bourke
348   Posted 18/04/2012 at 23:08:25

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Roman and Paul, Its about attitude and commitment. If a player has a great attitude and is hard working fully committed to the team and is late, he naturally will be dealt with differently to a player who hasn't got the best of attitudes and is a repeat offender.
I can't speak for Neville but I do know Tim Cahill, and he is the ultimate pro. If he was ever going to be late he would manage it in such a way that everyone would be aware of the situation.
Paul David
349   Posted 18/04/2012 at 23:15:07

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Peter
Thats a fair comment.For me though Moyes has double standards,I cant say anything about what goes on at the training ground but from what I see during games is that Anichebe displays a terrible attitude yet Moyes thinks the sun shines out of his arse.
Roman Sidey
379   Posted 19/04/2012 at 06:17:26

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The proof is in the pudding though, isn't it Peter? Moyes has got a truly shocking record dealing with cultured, attacking, flair players.

He couldn't sign Bellamy because he set up too many boundaries for the bloke.

He balked at spending a few million on Fernandes who was already established in the side, to only go out and spend double on Fellaini, who took three seasons to gel in the side and actully finish a season.

Van der Meyde - oh what could have been...

Then he gets a Real Madrid winger on loan, with a free transfer looming at the end of the season. What does Moyes do? Take every opportunity to bag out the player in public?

You never saw this sort of public maming for players like Jacobsen or Segundo, or even Beattie or Johnson.

Moyes is not capable of dealing with players with a bit of flair, and he will be a complete loser until he does.
Tony J Williams
446   Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:20:52

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"He couldn't sign Bellamy because he set up too many boundaries for the bloke" - Imagine that, setting standards for one of your potential players...the cheek!

"He balked at spending a few million on Fernandes" - Didn't he sign with someone else after he confirmed he would a Blue by the next morning?

"Van der Meyde" How is this in any way Moyes' fault? The man was an alcoholic and we took a gamble which failed.

"What does Moyes do? Take every opportunity to bag out the player in public?" Because he had the ammunition to, because he is a alleged piss-head too.

"You never saw this sort of public maming for players like Jacobsen or Segundo, or even Beattie or Johnson" - Because of all them the only story of one being pissed was Meattie arguing with a statue... in off season.

"Moyes is not capable of dealing with players with a bit of flair" ? Did just fine with our best flair player in the last 10 years, Arteta. Doing ok with Baines, and to a lesser extent Pienaar (money issue). Never heard of any disciplinary problems with these three flair players.
James Bowman
548   Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:02:23

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Had so much hope for this lad, you don't get a contract at Real if you havent got the skills. When I saw him at Villa away his energy was unreal but a complete headless chicken! So much that I wouldnt want him playing too close to the goal in case he ran into the post and knocked himself out!

I heard from a true blue that he doesnt get on with Ossie and Baines... if true, he was gone long before saturday. He will now be the "what if", which is the biggest shame of all. It seems everybody on here is convinced he would have made an impact.

On where the blame lies, if he were late then simply he can blame no-one but himself. If we can see the imapct he would have had then Moyes would have just made one of the toughest decisions since joining because its clear from above that the answer isnt obvious.

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