When David Moyes eventually leaves Everton, I will feel a degree of anxiety. Whatever one's views of him are, it seems to me that he is, at the very least, a safe pair of hands. I don't subscribe to the view that we would have been relegated without him; we might have been... but maybe we would have won a trophy and played better football. It's all conjecture and opinions.
It has been my view for some time that we are stale and a change must come. I don't believe that Kenwright will sack Moyes and, despite my long running criticism of him, I believe sacking him would be to some extent unjust and would most certainly reflect badly on Everton. I do believe his time has run it's course, though, and I think and hope that he would accept a decent offer from elsewhere.
I think he will go to Celtic and I think it will be sooner rather than later. His defenders sometimes deflect criticism by asking who will replace him. Yes, there are always flavours of the month: Holloway, Rodgers, Lambert, Poyet and now Martinez. Any one of them might do a good job or it might well be disaster. Of those I've mentioned, I'd probably choose Lambert. He seems to me to have some of the attributes of Moyes but with a little more flair.
The critics of Moyes are often asked to put up an alternative or shut up. Well, here's my choice, a name I first suggested a few years ago and was roundly mocked for, Glenn Hoddle.
A super player who set out his teams to play proper football. He lost the England job because of flakey religious beliefs. A very strong character capable of dealing with flair players, As Dave Wilson recently said, his dropping of Gascoigne demonstrated a ruthlessness that David Moyes lacks.
His academy has him in contact with grass roots European football. He has still the reputation to attract good players and there are few of them who can look down on his footballing ability. Gary Neville said recently that England could do worse than appoint him for the Euros.
Most importantly he has something to prove, or, as he puts it, "unfinished business". He is experienced, can develop young players and, importantly, won't cost a lot.
This is not a Moyes Out rant. Merely a recognition that, realistically, his reign will soon end and we need to think of alternatives.
Andy Crooks, Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:29:40
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324 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:49:35
For which we eventually paid the price.
By the way it wasn't merely 'flakey religious beliefs' that proved the undoing of Hoddle. It was his contention that disabled people in this life were being punished for sins in a former life. That is not madness it is fucking demented.
Thanks but no-thanks. I don't want a demented cultist running this club thank you very much.
328 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:00:28
334 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:09:18
358 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:24:31
A winner as a player.
Not a defender.
A link with Everton.
Hungry for sucess.
Likes attacking, attractive, yet effective football.
Young and hungry.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but do you know who the answer would / could have been ??
Yep, Gary Speed.
I really feel a link with the club is essential if Moyes does go. Director of football or whatever, someone needs to get across a few basic 'how much beating Liverpool actually means' facts to the players...
360 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:41:14
Who would you rather have Hoddle or Osman ?
Who would you rather have, a man that has played at the highest level and managed at the highest level or a negative second rate centre half from Celtic reserves ?
If any posters choose OSMAN and MOYES from my questions then some of our supporters need help!
361 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:50:56
Great shout Andy Crooks from Belfast.
364 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:54:06
365 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:55:50
368 Posted 18/04/2012 at 23:40:00
He has more to spend on wages of players and his huge backroom staff of ex defenders.
He also has a training facility the envy of most if not all clubs in world football.
He has always had the full and unreserved backing of the chairman and board who have made him one of the highest paid managers in the UK.
He has wasted a small fortune on pre season jollies that from a results point of view have been a complete waste.
If the first half of recent seasons are anything to go by, a couple of weeks on Southport sands would serve just as well.
The yield from our academy is practically non existent. Rooney is the only player of note to hold down a regular first team place though that is with another club
We had a few supposed super stars in the making but since Moyes put him under protection he has had a succession of injury problems. The other who showed promise apparently needs showing how to defend. After ten years with the club that is a poor reflection on his previous coaches.
I would dearly wish to see the back of Moyes and the sooner the better.
377 Posted 19/04/2012 at 05:16:37
Do you reckon the fans of Portsmouth, Birmingham, Wolves, charlton, West ham, Ipswich, Middlesborough to name but a few would agree?
Criticizing shite play, fair point. Criticizing unadventurous line ups and negative tactics, fair play.
But to judge him as a useless failure just doesn't do the guy justice. Limited, yes. I hope he either learns to attack or finds a new job.
When he took over the club was in a shit state. his major achievement was to put together a younger team capable of staying in the premier league. job done. the fact that he managed to get a team with players like Bent and Kilbane anywhere near champions league proves he must have had some skills.
I think he should have moved on a couple of seasons ago, a good move for the club and the man.
378 Posted 19/04/2012 at 05:35:45
We were good enough for the Europa Cup but that turned out a disaster. Never mind, we have a good up-and-coming manager who will learn from this and take us forward. The quality of the squad improves but on a limited budget but we still pay huge fees for Fellaini and the Yak and then get a windfall from selling Lescott and we know Distin is just as good but rarely scores goals like the former.
We continue to progress and we continue to play defensive unattractive football... but so what? We are in the Premier League and we are the Best of the Rest. Our manager picks up awards and we think, "Yes, we have a winner here".
The squad put together was the best we had in years, capable of beating anyone, and so we all looked forward to that season... but, typical of EFC, it was a false dawn. The concensus going around was that this was his time, his team and he would deliver the goods.
The football remained negative, the tactics unfathomable and the comments defeatist: "Underdogs", "knife to a gunfight" and "it was a good loss, we played well, and it was only a wonder strike by Van Persie that cost us a point." (No thought about winning the game then?)
So here we are, 10 years on, and the job has out-grown the man. Everton are a big club, massive support from knowledgeable supporters, and we want the right man for this job. Thank you, Mr Moyes, for your efforts and the work you have done but we need to go to the next level.
We want to beat the Shite, the Arse and Manure ? not roll over to them as we have for the last 10 years. Progress is being able to compete with these sides and win games. Three losses to the Shite this season is just not cutting it for most Evertonians. The derby is important, it's tradition that we want to win so when you send out a team at Anfield, it has to be with the aim to win.
We go to Utd and we already know the result. We should be of the mindset that we are good enough to compete with this team and beat them. Until we get a manager with this philosophy, then I fear it will be another 5 years of Moyes.
382 Posted 19/04/2012 at 07:38:49
383 Posted 19/04/2012 at 07:36:34
At least it would make watching Everton interesting and not the same old bad start, good finish, disappointment in the derby seasons that we get every year.
Perhaps he could employ one of his 'mind bending gurus' to hypnotise the players into believing that we really can beat liverpool.
It appears all other techniques have failed to convince them.
Realistically tho, not a chance of a change like this with the current chairman as we dont take risks.
384 Posted 19/04/2012 at 07:26:46
West Ham is soon to move into the Olympic stadium and just like City this makes the Hammers a prime take over target with the added attraction of a London base.
In recent years Portsmouth and Birmingham have done what Moyes has found impossible.
FA Cup winners, Pompey 2008.
League Cup winners Brum 2011.
With their new stadia all the clubs you mention can face the future with a degree of confidence that is sadly lacking at dear old old Goodison.
385 Posted 19/04/2012 at 08:02:18
387 Posted 19/04/2012 at 07:51:48
Gets his teams playing good football, doesn't seem afraid to take a risk, strikes me as someone who believes in playing attack is the best form of defence and has a good eye for a player e.g. I am pretty sure he brought Lennon and Huddlestone to Spurs.
Finished above Moyes' Everton with two 5th place finishes in his two full seasons in charge of Spurs after taking over a team floundering under the previous manager. In fact would have got 4th and Champions League football but for a dodgy lasagne. Very harshly got the chop (in my opinion) after a slow start to the season whereas other managers (!) at similar sized clubs have gotten away with slower starts.
Seems to have Fulham ticking along nicely and getting the best out of their attacking players e.g. Dempsey, Dembele, Pogrebnyak while some of the older players are enjoying an Indian summer under him e.g. Murphy, Duff. No guarantee he'd do the same at Everton but worth a shot, for me.
As an added bonus, has a brother named Cock.
388 Posted 19/04/2012 at 07:59:11
Try explaining this one to Everton Disabled Supporters Association. http://www.evertonfc.com/club/edsa.html
Nice quote from Cascarino on Wikipedia -pasted below.
Hoddle's former Chelsea team-mate Tony Cascarino has also commented:
"When Glenn tried to be funny, it was time to pass round the laughing gas because he was probably the unfunniest man I have ever known. He was also completely besotted with himself. If he had been an ice cream, he would have licked himself"
390 Posted 19/04/2012 at 08:39:22
391 Posted 19/04/2012 at 08:43:49
392 Posted 19/04/2012 at 08:48:37
Get the right manager in and we could well do better, it certainly would be nice to see what happens if we get a bit more adventurous and play a bit more football. I guess at least that we will answer the perennial 'is he shit or not?' question, probably a couple of seasons after he moves on and he will go soon - I can't see him sticking around for another 5 seasons.
He's done a good job, turning us around from relegation fodder on a limited budget to consistent top-8, and for a while top-5. Could another manager have done more with the Rooney money? Maybe, but I doubt it. Should another manager have taken over when we hit the ceiling? Perhaps, but I think we would have struggled to find someone who was a safe bet to improve us who would have wanted to come.
I can only presume that Dick's comments come off the back of Wembley disappointment because we could well do much worse than Moyes. I have a feeling that we will end up scrapping when he finally goes and I'm not looking forward to him leaving.
393 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:05:00
395 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:13:35
397 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:41:44
398 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:48:00
400 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:49:59
The current manager of the Scottish Champions is paid barely half of Davey`s wage at Everton and he is hardly likely to wish to work in a league barely of Championship standard.
As far as Hoddle is concerned,just ask Wolves supporters what they thought of him in his last resurrection.A good gabber he may be but man-management is another thing. And they all sound good on the box,don`t they?
No,Moyes is our man and Gordon Clegg will break the bank to keep him by his side.After all,he`s doomed without him!
401 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:44:20
I wish there was 2 or 3 stand out candidates for the job as every single name mentioned cant possibly be right for us.
I am not even sure who I would want in charge all I know is I have been wanting a change for a while now.If put me on the spot I would go for Lambert even if I am sick of dour scotsman being at the helm.
402 Posted 19/04/2012 at 09:51:12
A quiet transformer of clubs where the boardrooms are a shambles and previous managers are survival at any cost merchants ie Newcastle and Allardyce, Birmingham and Mcleish.
He really gets them playing improves results and amazingly is completely without ego.
404 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:12:35
I do not agree at all with Lambert though. Why do we want someone who is very similar to Moyes!!?
Doesn't anybody watch any football from leagues abroad there are some great coaches and managers.
There is only one candidate for me from this country is Rogers by a long way. Already looks like he is in line for the Spurs job though
405 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:22:05
406 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:24:40
407 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:17:06
Like I say I could well change my mind in a couple of days because I really am not sure who I would like,am not sure how similar Moyes and Lambert are though.
For Rogders the emphasis seems to be completely on style while for Lambert it seems to be a mixture of effectiveness and football.
I remember Norwich coming to Goodison and every time the ball was crossed into our box there was alway 3 or 4 players there while at the other end we was lucky if we had 1 player trying to get on the end of a cross.
408 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:22:32
409 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:29:22
410 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:23:00
I also think he's been out the game a long time. If Martinez didn't come and the job was advertised I think we'd be suprised by the calibre of applicant.
411 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:28:49
At Wembley we saw Moyes getting his arse wiped by Dalglish. Remind me how long that man was without a club.
Do not take this as a personal vote for Hoddle.
412 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:40:52
413 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:37:13
Who ever we'd like it to be it could well be coming from in house. Pip Neville, Big Dunc and Sheedy perhaps.
414 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:44:43
415 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:43:43
416 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:31:50
417 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:50:38
418 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:41:35
Few of them adapt to the prem style of football, AVB for one.
They attempt to play european league style tactics and it for the most past does not work until they learn the ropes over here.
If Queen Kenny gets another 3 years i would go for Benitez (waits for the abuse).
419 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:41:22
420 Posted 19/04/2012 at 10:55:32
421 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:02:46
424 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:07:30
Kenwright will still be kingmaker.
If Moyes seeks pastures new, there will be only one candidate.
David Moyes`s comment to the press drive people crazy.
Wait till the get a load of Phil Nevilles.
426 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:17:02
Would be fantastic, however managers with pedigree dont work for Bull Shitters and liars. They can choose their next club and their employer. Why would anyone with experience in winning domestic and european trophies choose to work for Bill?
Hoddle, would be a Keegan-esque appointment resulting in a world of pain.
427 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:10:45
Now every team I can think of that has had that philosophy in the last 20 years hasn't lasted long in the Premiership - ALL of those managers & teams have perished when the team had all that optimism beaten out of them, week after week, sooner or later unless they had VAST amounts of money to spend year on year.
Moyes is the exception. There are several teams below us still who have the income to do better than us, none above. Relegation? Never give it a thought.
The problem is the Premiership. It is worth so much money that survival is everything. Moyes himself has pioneered the conservative model for survival - making many many millions for the club in the process. Do we want dour, occasionally exciting football (what we have now) or open, attacking football and the occasional dip into the Championship? Who amongst you would be screaming for his head if we were in the bottom 3 after a 3-4 defeat at Liverpool? Most of you I would guess.
429 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:27:32
430 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:30:35
431 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:21:03
OK, let me run this one past you... We should choose the preferred nationality of our next manager first, and then narrow it down to a particular candidate!
I like the idea of an Argentinian: he'd bring passion and attacking flair galore. Bielsa at Athletic Bilbao looks good, but if he doesn't fancy it then step forward Diego 'Crazy Man' Maradona.
So, that's that sorted then.
432 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:31:45
As for Athletico Bilbao's manager; join the queue.
It'll never happen but if Hoddle became our manager, I think that would be the end of my association with the club. At least until he was sacked.
433 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:46:09
Billy Bullshit will not offer the same wages to another manager
434 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:20:44
I also agree that Lambert has similar qualities to Moyes like being honest and humble but with an attacking mindset to games. I've seen a bit of Norwich this season and at times they have played some clever football,breaking at pace. There not gung ho like a Holloway team,he has a good balance of defend and attack.
There are quite a few managers I would like to replace Moyes but here are some that Kenwright should stay away from:
errrrm.... and Megson.
435 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:47:49
Martinez would be the man for me but I can't see it happening. He got Swansea playing the way they do now and Rodgers is getting all the praise. What did he do at the other clubs he was at......nothing
We need to see if Moyes is going to go yet.
436 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:52:26
At least under him we went into derby matches showing some fighting spirit.
437 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:50:32
438 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:36:30
Does our single point lead over the RS prove Moyes superiority as a manager or could have something to do them having their worst side in living memory.
440 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:53:40
441 Posted 19/04/2012 at 11:58:22
Fuck "Honest and humble." I want a manager who is outspoken, can play mind games and motivate a team.
I want one that will come out spitting venom when we have been robbed in another derby by a knob of a referee.
I want one that will tell the team to go out and destroy the opposition instead of defending a 1-0 lead.
I want a winner, with a winners mentality. Not a fucking nodding dog who plays patsy with the press and the board.
I want it now !
442 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:00:21
The other overiding factor is how do you attract a new manager who will have to sell in order to buy. Oneill left Villa because of lack of funds Hughes left Fulham for the same reason.
Although I would like us to play a more expansive game than we do, I think Moyes deserves a lot of credit. To be in charge of a Premiership club for 10 years is some acheivement. And while no trophies have been won in that time, we have usually been in the top group for most of the 10 years.
443 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:02:19
Birmingham, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Charlton and West Ham all play in older stadiums. West Ham's bid for the Olympic Stadium has been rejected. Man City don't actually own their own stadium, it belongs to the council, the Man City owners want to buy it.
Middlesbourough and Wolves do indeed have newish stadiums, built in mid- to late-90s, a decade before their current plight, and I don't remember any issues splashing the cash at the Riverside?
You are right about the cups, and I have said as much. Time for a change. But lets not discredit the guy to such a degree. The job he has done is decent. Nows the time for a change.
447 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:34:33
But surely this is down to the manager isn't it? I mean it's always Moyes' fault if the team does poorly, nothing to do with having average players...isn't that how it goes? You can't have it both ways.....well you can if your name is Tara Patrick I suppose..
449 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:48:28
You could blame the players on the pitch, but the fact Tim Cahill recently went 13 months without a goal, yet Moyes never dropped him, is the manager's fault. The fact we sat back in the 2nd half of Saturday's game was the managers fault.
Also, 1 point over the redshite doesn't prove his superiority over Dalglish, and it doesn't mean the team has played well neither. I would much rather be a point behind them if we had a trophy in the cabinet, and a chance of another.
450 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:58:52
451 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:00:14
Never heard of her so searched Google.
A fine pair of strikers, just what we need.
Thinks i must have had a sheltered childhood!!!!
452 Posted 19/04/2012 at 12:58:42
You can bet your last penny that, if Liverpool were above us by one point, posters will be using that as a way to state Dogleash is a better manager; because they are below us (for now) it doesn't count because they beat us in the semi.
It's the usual stance of so many anti-Moyes people, twist any bit of information to suit their argument, like the "we lose because of him but we win despite him" rubbish that gets spouted on here.
Everyone IS to blame, from the board not allowing a transfer kitty suitable for a Preimer League side, the manager for being way too cautious and the players for failing to do what they are handsomely paid to do properly.
You state we sat back in the second half... we didn't, we started to sit back in the first half after the goal, this is obviously before the half-time team talk.
We (Blues) could all see the inevitability of the equalising goal but, to be fair, we had weathered the storm and all the lads I was watching the game with who were Reds all said that they didn't think they were going to score if they played all day... until Distin's error.
It was working, albeit, it wasn't pretty and an indicidual mistake from a player who had been a rock all season killed the game for us.
453 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:09:22
Yes, we did start to sit back after we scored, but do you think that was a collective decision between the 11 players on the pitch, made whilst celebrating the goal? I don't; I think that was the plan, get a goal, then tighten up, I just don't get why... Tighten up after 2 goals, 3 goals, but not 1.
Even when it has worked, I have still slated Moyes for it. Was it enjoyable watching Spurs come at us over and over again in the 2nd half of our game at Goodison? No it wasn't, and it was nothing but relief that the game was over in the end.
There is always a fuck up in the Everton defence, in almost every game; you never know who is going to make it, but you know somebody will. We ain't good enough to sit on 1 goal, but we are good enough to go and get 2.
454 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:09:48
I don't know why you say "as bad as it sounds" when referring to Neville. The man is a winner, and an intelligent one to boot.If you have any dobts about his winning mentality ask him to show you his medals. He's probably got as many as the entire LFC team...
I think he'd make a good manager.
But let's shoot him down before he's airborne, eh?
456 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:13:56
I can appreciate where you come from and your right we sat back as soon as we scored.
But, Surely in that instance the manager should have used half time to put a stop to that and sent them out with a more attacking mindset.
He never. It's not the first time this has happened and we all know it will happen again next time we play a game that matters,
I don't believe all his underdog talk before the game was mind games or anything else. I think he was trying to convince himself because that's the position he likes to be in because he struggles with expectation.
The buck has to stop with the manager.
457 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:27:12
Tell you what though, as a player I despised Gary Neville, as a pundit, I have total respect for him, he is probalby the best out there. There is no biase towards Man U, he tells it as he see's it, a breath of fresh air.
458 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:32:45
460 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:24:07
That said, If he did go I would want Steve Mclaren to take over. Only if, it was written into his contract that he had to give all his press conferences using his shexy Dutch acshent!! :)
461 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:34:03
That Guardiola is a bit shit isn't he? getting beat by a team we beat a few weeks back!
462 Posted 19/04/2012 at 13:54:26
Did Guardiola send his team out last night to sit back and defend? Or did they pretty much have the ball for 3 quarters of the game, hit the bar and post and on another day would have scored 3 or 4, and will likely do so next week if they play the same way. Its' hardly comparable is it?
463 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:08:08
464 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:18:24
466 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:22:46
I noticed that myself this morning Jim....what a loser!!
467 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:22:11
If you wan't to blame two mistakes for the defeat that's up to you.
I blame a mindset that's been coached into this set of players for a number of years.
They were not limited to two isolated chances. Carroll could have scored a hat trick.
Moyes critics are always accused of missing the 'bigger picture'. I think it's the other way round in this case.
471 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:08:52
I remember the games against Wimbledon and Coventry under Mike Walker and Howard Kendall respectively. Well they were certainly exciting, and unpredictable, but to be honest, I wouldn?t fancy a repeat of either of them. And I certainly wouldn?t trade exciting football for our consistent ?best of the rest? league positions.
David Moyes has brought great stability to a club that is, in all honesty, on the verge of financial ruin. What?s more, he has consistently achieved top half finishes, come close to a trophy (which he deserves) on several occasions, finished 4th (the only team outside of the big 5/6 to do so) and delivered a couple of very enjoyable European adventures.
Boardroom mis-management is to blame for the current predicament we find ourselves in, not David Moyes. Maybe Moyes will move on, maybe it is time for a change. But in my view it will launch Everton into an even greater period of uncertainty and we will certainly be worse off without him.
475 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:47:57
476 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:58:09
Then invert all that ... because we lost. What's wrong with that?
477 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:01:14
It's not one or the other. You can still finish 'best of the rest' and play good football.
Newcastle are proving this every week.
479 Posted 19/04/2012 at 14:54:07
If Cahill is playing crap, what does it matter who he is replacing him with? At least it would show that he was trying to do something different. Im not saying he has got world beaters to bring on, but so what?
He could have given the shite something to think about and brought Straq and Anichebe on for Gueye and Cahill, anything! Would it have worked? Who knows?
One thing I do know though is that at 1-1, bringing Coleman on was telling them that we wanted pens. Dalglish might as well have said to his team 'everyone up front' for all the defending they had to do.
480 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:12:19
482 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:09:29
Be fair, Stephen, we have played some bloody good football at different times during Moyes tenure. It's just a shame that we're not playing it week in, week out these days.
483 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:10:11
485 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:16:34
486 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:18:16
489 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:24:58
490 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:29:44
491 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:33:57
496 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:36:22
What does it take? Are you defending him because you don't want to admit you've been wrong about him?
Everton are the biggest club Moyes will ever control, it's Celtic for him next.
I'd like Marcelo Bielsa as a replacement, be tough to get him though. There's a guy who doesn't shit himself when playing in a big game.
499 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:47:31
If Moyes was to deploy a more attacking approach would we continue to be best of the rest or would we slip down the league?
500 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:43:40
505 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:52:34
507 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:53:37
There have been periods where our football has been brilliant. They seem to be less and less and time goes by.
Swansea and the 2 Sunderland games are the only ones that jump out this season.
We have had other noteworthy results too but I wouldn't say they were achieved playing the beautiful game which I can accept if the intention is there.
Neither would you if you went from a cup side to winning everything going in under 12 months. They were also scoring for fun.
You seem to believe safe, dependable, uninspiring football is the reason we are where we are. I believe there's a lot of potential in our squad and we'd be more likely to do a Newcastle than a Blackpool should we find a manager with the beliefs to unleash it.
If long ball, route 1, sit deep and soak pressure style was the best way to ensure success then everybody would be at it. The reason they aren't is down to it's failures, all evident last weekend.
510 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:05:10
We're nowhere near best of the rest. That 'accolade' goes to Newcastle who have been selling their best players and replacing them with young, hungry ones that can play.
513 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:05:10
I watch a lot of Blackpool cos it's my home town, my nephew is a season ticket holder. He looks forward to every game, the jammy little bastard.
514 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:06:07
I honestly believe his cautious approach has cost us points this season at home. Maybe I am being unrealistic as we're not in a bad position (even though we could easy be 14th in a few weeks, the league is so tight) but with 2 up front we surely would score and win more.
515 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:06:08
Last weekend was one game. Yes it was galling, but you can?t judge Moyes?s whole tenure on this one game. Let's judge him on league finishes.
My belief is that this season we simply haven?t had the players to play good football. Arteta and Pienaar leaving was a huge blow and would leave a gap in the majority of top sides. Surely you remember the days when we had Pienaar, Arteta, Cahill and the Yak in peak condition? I think we passed the ball around superbly and patiently then and the reason being, that we had the players to do so.
I am actually quite optimistic about next season. I feel Moyes is trying to rebuild the squad so that we can play better football, and with a few useful additions, who knows? Jelavic is a great signing, Gibson will hopefully get better, maybe even Rodwell will start to fulfil his potential. Drenthe didn?t quite work out but it could potentially have been an unbelievable coup.
Have a little faith in our favourite Scottish red-head. You never know, you might just like it!
516 Posted 19/04/2012 at 15:58:59
At last we agree !
Bielsa definitely wouldn't shit himself for the big games... That sorts that one out.
But he`s gonna need a lot of Imodium to stop Cahill, Neville, Distin, Osman, Coleman, Howard and Fellaini from shitting themsleves for the big games.
517 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:18:10
I think he'd get rid of those players pretty quick, better to have £15m in the bank than spend £15m on imodium.
519 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:38:03
My faith in him has long gone I'm afraid.
My judgements aren't based on one game either. I've seen us score one and try to sit on it loads of times under Moyes. Bolton this season being one that springs to mind. There are countless others but I wouldn't bother myself to go and look them all up.
My belief is there are footballers right through this side who are being held back by a managers overly conservative nature and fear of loss, rather than a Ferguson like, love of victory.
You can keep the faith as long as you like. I can't really remember one single big game where he done us proud?
Actually I take that back. Fiorentina at home after we done our usual away.
Besides that anyone?
520 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:24:25
I'd love Jurgen Klopp from Dortmund but now I am dreaming! Not only is he keeping Bayern from top spot but he does it in front of 80,000 every week. Somehow can't see him managing at Goodison. I like the idea of a German managing Everton though, they have an intelligence and fearless nature, something I think we lack at our beloved.
521 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:49:26
Also I can not remember the last time I walked out of Goodison thinking that was a good game.
527 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:03:24
Season ticket sales will be down again, Kenwright, so be a man and get a taxi for Moyes.
529 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:54:02
However, it followed an abject display away from home which meant that we had a mountain to climb and our backs were against the wall. hence no pressure.
This to me sums up the Moyes era in that he seems to struggle (and the players do too) with managing and performing when expectations are high.
This could explain defeats to numerous lower league teams over the years in cups.
Additionally perhaps this is why we also start each season poorly when we are full of hope (sort of!!) as it cant be about preparation and fitness in pre season.
Under Moyes we seem to perform well when the expectation is low such as when we have injuries and suspensions which results in limited options. Yet when we have the squad fully available with options then we often struggle.
We can speculate all day over managers but Moyes is basically unsackable with the present Chairman.
534 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:24:46
I take your point, his football is dull, particularly at the present time. But he's a results man in a results business. And his results speak for themselves.
We could get Ian Holloway in, it might be entertaining and exciting, but at what cost? Relegation i suspect.
538 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:43:11
Is it Moyes who keeps us up the league or is tactics?
539 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:41:24
People go on about Arteta but how many times did he play well against the bigger teams and in derbies? Maybe once or twice in derby games.
Similarly with Piennaar. I like the guy a lot but how many times does he do well against the RS?
The only time I can remember us having a player (post Duncan Ferguson's first spell) where I thought "this guy will be good in derbies" and it turning out to be true was the Andy Johnson derby. That was one time we were all expectant and we actually thumped 'em.
541 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:53:28
542 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:49:24
Paul, I wish I knew the answer to your question, then the whole 'Moyes stay/Moyes go' debate would be easily resolved.
My opinion is he's done wonders on very limited resources. I don't think another manager could achieve as good league finishes on his budget. They might bring slightly lower league finishes though but with much more exciting football.
544 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:53:57
"Maybe Moyes will move on, maybe it is time for a change. But in my view it will launch Everton into an even greater period of uncertainty and we will certainly be worse off without him."
So just to clarify, you think that Moyes' departure would mean a spell of uncertainty where you are certain we would be worse off.
Dave @ 516,
Those players might not shit themselves under Bielsa, or another manager with a different outlook on how the game should be played (i.e. less cautiously) than Moyes seems to me to have.
545 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:00:17
546 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:07:34
550 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:09:24
For the record there are loads of games I can point to where we played well. It's when any kind of pressure is there we(he) freezes.
I meant when it really mattered I.e Saturdays game, the FA cup final, Lisbon away, Liege and a host of others where we went out and played like we were frightened.
We almost threw it away against the butcher, bakers and candlestick makers of Kharkiv because of the fear he instills on the big occassions.
That's why I'm not pointing the blame at the players.
551 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:20:43
552 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:16:12
That's where I disagree. With someone less risk averse and whose footballing philosophy is more attack minded, I believe we could achieve, at a minimum, solid league finishes, win the odd cup competition and play more attractive football.
Moyes has many strengths but I believe a fundamental flaw of his is that he lacks the conviction and bravery to take the risks needed to seize opportunities that present themselves, instead remaining cautious and paying the opposition too much respect.
559 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:32:38
We on the other hand, are light years behind, which is why it's a wonder we are above them in the league and where I feel Moyes deserves credit.
Stephen, I accept your point re: big games. It's hugely disappointing. Theres no guarentees we would even get to these games though under a new manager.
563 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:49:29
Our debate shows the two sides of the risk/reward debate.
I feel there's something to be gained by rolling the dice.
You feel there's something to be lost.
564 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:39:54
He was subject to a press witch hunt which was utterly appalling. I don't think that away from football he is the sharpest tool in the box but, frankly, that doesn't concern me. Also, he has no sense of humour? Fuck me if that was the criteria, well how many times has David Moyes had you piss yourself laughing? In fact football is packed with witless, humourless , half wits.
It is pretty easy for those who support Moyes to ask for an alternative and then sneer at any put forward. They want Moyes and will obviously denigrate anyone else.
566 Posted 19/04/2012 at 18:30:17
We start with a point,if we can grab a goal we have a good chance of 3 points. Not many teams can score two goals against us so if we score ONE goal we should at least get a point.
He sets his teams up not to lose -not to win.
That is his main problem.
Let's us just see in the summer -the Spurs Job- you must be joking,
A manager with a winning mentality would get much more out of our players,with a more attacking mindset would we have lost at home to QPR,Bolton or Stoke.
Would we have drawn against Norwich or Blackburn.
I keep saying it but really after last Saturday's capitulation I am not going to another match whilst either BK or Moyes are at the club.
And by the way, I don't care who takes over from dour Davey as long as he fucks off Round.
570 Posted 19/04/2012 at 19:24:36
He earns double what managers at clubs like Inter and Juve earn. Quite astonishing when you think about it.
572 Posted 19/04/2012 at 19:39:56
576 Posted 19/04/2012 at 19:37:36
I have always supported Moyes and feel he has done a decent job all things considered, but i honestly beleive it is now time for a change.
No one knows if a new manager will make things better or worse but if the job was advertised i think you would find plenty of candidates.
580 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:00:01
581 Posted 19/04/2012 at 19:31:56
You also failed to mention the key point, all the managers that consistently finish above Moyes, surprisingly get paid more than him. You also fail to mention that Mark Hughes and Martin O' Neil get paid the same as Moyes!!
But wait, lets miss out these points, as it doesn't suit your agenda right?
584 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:06:04
586 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:02:03
The fact that we were once a power in the land has no relevance in today`s world... so, while so many may hanker after former glories, it just has to be realised that the only reason we are 'still in there pitching' is BECAUSE OF DAVID MOYES!
587 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:09:02
Some people seem to be fucking brain dead on this subject. Moyes is paid as his league positions reflect when compared to other managers in the Premier League. Conspiracy over.
Bring in whatever manager you want guys, but without the right players, managers cannot consistently win things. It's a fact, proven by the entire history of the Premier League. You buy the title, you do not win it with managerial astuteness alone.
588 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:17:01
One things for sure we'd have won Saturday.
590 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:19:21
Where has anyone suggested or demanded we win the league or cups on a consistent basis?
Most people are looking for a better style of football and a positive attitude in the occassional big game we take part in.
591 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:18:10
We don't want miracles, just some balls now and again .
592 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:19:07
I also do not agree Managers look for transfer funds first and foremost. Salary and Time are just as key as transfer funds. We also have the spine of a good team. Heitinga, Baines, Fellaini, Osman, Jelavic etc.
I think we would be an extremely attractive project for a lot of Managers as they know they would be given a fair crack of the whip.
593 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:24:19
594 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:22:19
Mourinho is a top top manager, no doubt about it. But believe it or not he does lose football games.
598 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:32:40
Just not the ones that matter. He's one of the managers who can make a player feel 10 feet tall. Moyes is the opposite IMO, in big games anyway.
The only side you can say have consistently got the better of a Mourinho side are Barca over Madrid. They may be the best side to ever play the game and as things stand he's going to win the league over them.
600 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:35:17
601 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:37:36
I would expect him to win the title with that team, as I would any manager.
606 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:54:03
608 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:00:35
610 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:04:45
Fuck me is there anything he isn't shit at?
611 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:06:27
612 Posted 19/04/2012 at 20:34:40
You've hit the nail on the head for me.
I just want to watch a more attractive style of football and when the chance arises in the cups every couple of years (as it does and will) support a team that gives you the feeling that they have had a real go at it.
I think we have some quality players but often come out of the match frustrated by the system, style, predictability and pace of our play.
Couldn't give a damn if we finish 7th or 10th (forget the Sky money for position). League position will be forgotten in 2 seasons.
Big wow if we finish above Liverpool this season, are we really bothered about that after Saturday. If anyone is then how sad for them.
Would you sooner us finish 7th with our drab style or finish 10th and be entertained.
All the posts stating , oh we may get relegated if it wasnt for Moyes share his negative attitude and are afraid to take a chance or gamble.
I think he's done a fine job at Goodison with what he has been given and from the baseline he started at, however, I think we are now stale and this is reflected in the style of play and our predictability.
Also if Moyes left at the end of this season for a 'bigger' (sorry) club then it would probably be with the best wishes of the majority.
However, if he stays next season and we make the usual slow start then the crowd will surely turn on him en masse and we may find ourselves in a right mess.
Pure conjecture, but not outside the realms of possibility considering our usual pattern.
Therefore I hope he is offered a new position in the summer and we can then debate who the new manager should be, hopefully get him appointed and get some urgency and variety into our team.
616 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:11:23
624 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:16:05
Lewis Hamilton would never be World Champion if he was driving a car that is regularly at the back of the grid. However i bet he could get the car to lap quicker than it's usual driver by maybe half a second a lap by his ability to set the car up to go quicker using his technical knowledge, by making the correct decisions regarding tyre choice etc, by galvanizing his team and by his natural ability to drive.
As a result of this, the best drivers find themselves in the best cars at the front.
Similarly, the best managers end up at the top teams.
Using this logic (maybe flawed) as he has been at numerous top teams then Mourinho would improve Everton using the same players we currently have!!!!
626 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:22:13
628 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:30:34
634 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:37:22
635 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:31:34
Are you not being selective also??
On our three Wembley appearances we have been poor.
Man Utd semi: we beat their reserves on pens after two hours of mind-blowingly dull football (they had a Champions League semi to play a couple of days later).
Chelsea: they were just too good for us and I don't see what we could have done about that on the day
Liverpool: can't even talk about it.
I would love to have the feeling similar to after the Spurs semi in 95 when you just thought wow, where did that come from???
Even when we win, it's as if we just scrape through. We never put teams to the sword and that's what I mean by having a go.
I am not advocating the players don't give it their all, I just have the opinion they are somewhat restrained by our tactics.
636 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:47:15
Expansive attacking tactics require the players with the ability to execute the tactics, without getting caught out at the back all the time. I saw Spurs really have a go at chelsea when they went behind in the other semi, and ended up getting walloped 5-1. Would Moyes ever do that? No, never. He plays percentage football, as he knows the limitations of his side. He knows what the players are capable of, and where the weaknesses are. Give him a side capable of playing attacking football (i.e. since January), and suddenly we improve. I don' see it as a coincidence.
637 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:51:53
639 Posted 19/04/2012 at 21:59:11
642 Posted 19/04/2012 at 22:07:36
Spurs battered us and we was lucky.Chelsea and City were hard thought wins with little quality and both teams played as bad as any top side i've seen at Goodison in 20 years,if either had shown any form I would have expected them to beat us with ease.
643 Posted 19/04/2012 at 22:02:24
Home games such as Blackburn, QPR, Stoke, Norwich this season come to mind when we didn't attack from the first minute against sides we should be beating at home. (Bolton was a freak as a result of the windy weather.)
Or against a top side, look at the home game against Man Utd this season when they were coming off the back of a beating by City. We came out at the start and sat back. Not because they were good on the day but because we were frightened.
I have said I feel Moyes has done a fine job over the years, I just think it's all gotten stale and predictable.
It has become as an amusing aside at the game these days in our little corner of the ground that when we get a corner, we bring all ten outfield players back into our box, hence if we clear the ball it comes straight back and we are trapped on the edge of the box. At home against the lower teams, leave two on the halfway line and let them worry about us!! This is just a little example of what I am trying to say.
646 Posted 19/04/2012 at 22:19:02
Things were stale at the start of the season, no doubt about that. But Moyes transfer dealings seem far from stale. This is his strongest point, and Jelavic seems to re-affirm this. If we had Jelavic at the start of the season, where do you think we would be now?
652 Posted 19/04/2012 at 22:25:45
Whoever comes in can't get it wrong as we don't have money to waste on bad signings. We can't get a new manager, give them £50M to spend, sack them because they sign a load of shite, then replace them with a new manager and give them £50M to spend putting it right
The reason why I appreciate Moyes is he buys wisely. Sure, there is a Bily and a Krĝldrup but, even if you look at his gross spend (rather than the net spend which Moyes supporters are at pains to point out), the players that he has brought to the club make him astute and an effective transfer wheeler-dealer.
We have less money than most of the other clubs in the Premier League. In the wrong hands, we could easily find ourselves in a situation that we can't get out of.
Before Moyes arrived, we were starting to find ourselves in that situation. Without him, finishing in the top 8 and complaining about dull football might seem something to aspire to and not be taken for granted.
653 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:04:45
658 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:15:56
660 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:25:57
664 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:33:32
Martinez & Rodgers have a bit more freedom in that they have 17 places to aim at in the Premier League to be a success and even if they don't achieve that and get relegated they wouldn't necessarily lose their jobs. There is almost more freedom to just go out and have a go
Whoever takes over Everton knows they have about 7 or 8 places to aim at in the Premier League, that's all. There is far more restriction.
666 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:49:12
668 Posted 19/04/2012 at 23:55:23
If we were to appoint a new manager, I would favour Lambert. He was a clever player, a Champions League winner. As a manager, he looks like taking Norwich higher than Swansea and Blackpool in their first season in the Premier League. He favours a less attractive style than Martinez, Holloway and Rodgers but his team since better equipped.
I think he is like a Younger Moyes, a solid if not spectacular manager. He has one advantage over Moyes in that he has the hunger. He hasn't been shafted by the restraints placed on Moyes by our beloved board.
670 Posted 20/04/2012 at 00:15:16
Keep Moyes (I'm one who'd prefer it) or let in any manager you like. They come and go. Richard hit the nail on the head.
673 Posted 20/04/2012 at 00:19:57
678 Posted 20/04/2012 at 02:52:45
You could give Moyes 100M quid and he'll serve the same shite every week, every season.
A child before 3 yrs you can still hope to change his perspective of life, his behaviour, his outlook for the better. He's close to 50. He will NOT change.
He's had 10 seasons. I can see that he will never change his style, mentality and approach to football.
He organizes his cozy patio in 4-5-1 and sit backs to enjoy his cuppa with his readies.
If I can't trust him with the pitiful transfer chest, how can I trust him with even more? It is the actions with what his has now that define the man's mentality, not 'what if he had millions'. If you don't understand this principle you have not lived LIFE. Excuses are for cowards.
I've had enough.
David Moyes will you please get out of my club.
681 Posted 20/04/2012 at 03:50:02
People have been making comparisons between Moyes and Dalglish.... you are fucking joking. They should not be mentioned in the same breath. One was one of the finest British talents ever to play the game and is a proven WINNER. David Moyes also comes from Glasgow, and has never won a raffle.
Let's be straight: Liverpool are fucking average. They were there for the taking. We all knew it. They knew it. If we turned up, were brave, and took the game to them, there was every reason to believe we would make the final. As it transpired, they were shite... and we were worse, but they at least tried and wanted it.
Please, David Moyes, leave us alone... you simply don't understand... you can't draw an FA Cup Semi-Final.
760 Posted 20/04/2012 at 12:01:09
Moyes guarantees premiership football and for that alone Blue bill will pay him whatever he wants. The very picture of complacency.
785 Posted 20/04/2012 at 13:01:26
Di Matteo (unless he gets Chelsea.
Sadly I have a feeling the next manager of Everton FC will be Alan Stubbs.
787 Posted 20/04/2012 at 13:06:36
848 Posted 20/04/2012 at 16:23:24
Wigan have almost been relegated several times now but nothings changed has it?
953 Posted 20/04/2012 at 20:22:44
Conjecture, of course, but I think there's a good chance he'd have done pretty well.
016 Posted 21/04/2012 at 01:22:32
He's on 65,000 a week (in the top 10 highest paid managers IN THE WORLD ? £3 million a year!!!) There are better managers out there, believe me, we just need CHANGE to find out!
020 Posted 21/04/2012 at 01:44:08
So what did we gain from this ridiculous folly? A day out in London which ended in another humiliation at the hands of the club we least want that from. Moyes is and always will be a second-rate surrender monkey and the sooner we get a boss with balls, the sooner we can start getting this great club back where it belongs. Nil Satisfaction Nli Optimism
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