What did the 4-4 draw at Old Trafford tell us?
1. The team has spirit and a resilient attitude
2. Man U are not as good as yesteryear and are vulnerable at the back
3. We can create and convert chances when we need to
4. Jelavic is our most natural striker probably since Gary Lineker
What questions does it pose?
1. Why can?t we play on the front foot more often?
2. Has Cahill had his day?
3. Can we afford not to buy Pienaar?
4. Will Osman ever step up to the plate in a ?big? match?
5. Can Jagielka and Heitinga play together effectively?
6. Just how reliant are we on Fellaini, Pienaar and Jelavic?
Lots of simple yes / no answers (and a few more longer ones), but the real questions all centre around David Moyes.
1. Why did he approach yesterday's game so gung-ho, against all his principles of the last 5/6 years?
2. Was it a one-off aberration and will he return to form for Fulham, bring Cahill back in and revert to type?
3. Why oh why did he not do this against Liverpool?
4. Was this something of a swansong as his last chance to beat one of the Sky 4 before he leaves?
The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that his approach was based upon the knowledge he is planning to leave.
Not withstanding Stubbs?s recent comments, his whole approach to the game, and his tetchy response when questioned beforehand about a possible negative attitude, suggest to me he has made his mind up to move on.
Why else potentially anger us even more and possibly take a real stuffing by going so gung-ho? Does he feel he has nothing to prove and is sticking two fingers up at those of us who question his tactics and his mindset?
Of course, one alternative is that he has had a brain transplant and now intends to attack teams from the off and play a more expansive style of football ? any takers?
Has he come to the conclusion that he can go no further and wants a fresh challenge? And, almost as a demonstration of his ability to any potential suitors, did he set out to visibly try and demonstrate how attacking he can be? ? Spurs anyone?
Many of us reach a point in our careers and jobs that we realise it's either time to move on and take up a fresh challenge or just leave because we have become stale. Moyes earns a phenomenal amount of money and will never be short for the rest of his life, so a short-term period of unemployment would not phase him. He is also so well loved by the media that his name will always be put forward for any job and he knows that.
Stubbs says he is at the crossroads... is that coded language telling us he?s off if the right offer or opportunity is available? Was yesterday evidence of this?
Jim Hourigan, Posted 23/04/2012 at 18:15:19
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
913 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:01:23
I just don't know if Moyes is going; perhaps his and Old Trafford was his swan song. Too hard to call, that one.
In terms of Pienaar, we simply have to find the money, if we cash in on someone else. But does he even want to come back full time? You would hope he does.
My question back is, is Fellaini now a suitable like-for-like Cahill replacement? Albeit a far superior footballer? I think he could be. He reminded me of Steven Gerrard at Old Trafford, in his 'advanced role'.
915 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:13:19
I also worry about something Felli said when interviewed for MOTD2 at the end of yesterday's game; he said "I have four games left..." and then stopped himself.
I appreciate English is not the lad's first language, and that he then started talking about the team etc., but you do begin to wonder if he saw yesterday as a having been an opportunity in the shop window (perhaps even more so than last week against the Shite)?
916 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:09:30
I can never forgive him for Anfield never mind Wembley.
919 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:18:23
920 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:13:28
Yesterday we were knocking it about as we have done for most games since January and Utd's class was showing and they should have won the game but we have Jelavic. As some journo pointed out, he's not spectacular at any one thing but does everything to a very good standard.
I think most of all, people need to remember that in all sports you can play well one week and then poorly the next time out and has nothing to do with going for it etc etc. As MK pointed out we did go for it and we were 4-2 down. We were an open goal and a post away from 5-2 so a lick of paint saved us from another morbid week on ToffeeWeb.
But apparently Moyes is a coward and plays for 0-0 and he's defensive and dour and and and... when in fact he's a very very good coach, with admittedly some question marks over his head, but then there's some over Ferguson's when you speak to their fans.
922 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:07:03
As for the future, I hope he stays, he has been so close during his decade to taking us to the so-called "next level" and, as we speak, we are only a few players short of a sqaud that can challenge for a top 4 place.The attitude of the team at United told us all we need to know about David Moyes.
923 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:29:50
925 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:18:08
Seems li8ke Moyes is at a crossroad, will Fellaini and Baines stay, if they do not I can see Moyes giving up and try his luck in another club.
Moyes does not owe Everton anything so he is free to leave, get Bilic in, he knows Jelavic well and can get in young players from his home country that we have not heard of.
I think Bilic know this club well, he can give us what Moyes does not, pride against the red shite, he will never back down the way Moyes did.
Pienaar is old, but at a reduced price we should get him.
We should try and sell Rodwell or Jagielka or both and then go and spend on real talent.
We need wingers, and we need to find a right/left back in.
This team has potential, but we need to get rid of players that does not add to the overall quality, such as Anichebe and Rodwell.
Jags is the one most likely to go for over 10 million and we should grab it with both hands.
927 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:26:25
The two main differences for me were having Jelavic, I think he gives the other players confidence that we can actually score. The other one is Cahill not being in the side, he is low on form and confidence and drops far too deep because of it. In his place Fellaini was always getting into the box.
We have played better since the January signings but still there has been no excuse for Moyes's negative attitude before that.
928 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:31:04
Which if he did go you can bet that he will make sure Pienaar stays at Spurs. Also what will be the reaction of the players he brought to Everton, the likes of Baines,Fellaini and Jelavic. Will they feel it is time to move on?
933 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:50:22
By the way, what do you think of my misplaced optimism of Sunday lunch time??
934 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:31:27
I think in a lot of respects Moyes has been unlucky, at key points of his time at Everton the fates have conspired against us or the rug has been pulled from under him.
Moyes leaving wouldn't move us forward in my opinion, only Kenwright, Earl and co pissing off would achieve that !
We qualify for the Champions League then those scumbag bastards win the fucker, queue UEFA doing whatever they could to make sure we didn't get through, enter Collina, baldy twat !
He assembled a very good team by 2009 and at stages we played some great football, then the wheels come off with serious injuries to Yak, Jags and Mikky. Although we got to the cup final, we struggled towards the end of that season, due to those injuries.
We get to summer 2009, three key players with serious injuries, and Moyes says he'll need to strengthen and would like to secure Donovan, cue his useless fuckin monstrosity of a Board, not a penny forthcoming, all his targets gone, until Lescott goes at the last minute that is, far too late and having to replace 1 player with two, a L back and a C back !
And so it has been the case since, no investment, players getting older, carrying injuries due to lack of rest and in my opinion Yak, Jags and Mikky never being the same since injury.
I'm convinced the lack of ability of DM to invest and freshen the squad, due to no cash being made available, has directly affected the form, Neville said as much a few weeks back, when asked, he said that the players brought in in Jan had not only freshened the place up, but also showed the players that there was still ambition within the club, something I believe has been missing from the very top of the organisation for years !
936 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:57:36
938 Posted 23/04/2012 at 19:59:21
He has allowed the players to age, all the while knowing he won't receive a fee for them instead of selling them while he could get a good fee and re-investing it.
939 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:06:45
940 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:10:50
941 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:08:21
Also, I don't think age is an issue with the team, it has been more that signings, as January has show, do just as above, provide a replenishment. Be it in ideas, effort or inspiration.
942 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:10:56
943 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:14:27
You only have to look at Lescott,if Moyes had his way he wouldnt have let him go.How could he actually think Lescott is worth more to the club than £24m.
I bet theres more examples we dont know about were he has knocked back bids for players when we needed the money more,he is stubborn.
944 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:16:30
I know that's not what you said but that was the reason for my posting on that page.
945 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:18:10
946 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:19:21
947 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:25:47
948 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:28:12
You mean sell key players only to see the money raised go into the ether never to be seen again?
Yeh, that would have made sense !!
950 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:31:46
Gary Neville summed it up perfectly - " I don't know why Moyes always come here to defend, they always end up getting beat, he may as well come and have a go. "
So will those posters now believe even the pro's can see through the negativity of the man, when it comes to playing away against the top teams ?
His record over ten years playing L'pool , Man U etc speaks volumes even if you want to put your fingers in your ears, and sing at the top of your voice.
Moyes is a percentage manager, take your points at home against the lower teams, hope for draws by playing defensively against the bigger sides. He reverted to type at Wembley & Anfield. He felt the criticism after Wembley, that's why we had a go at Old Trafford.
954 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:48:12
963 Posted 23/04/2012 at 20:53:41
Don't forget, some in the media judge Moyes by a five minute cameo on MOTD, I know what I have witnessed this season, and most of it has been dire.
969 Posted 23/04/2012 at 21:09:31
Yep weve been dire at times, but at the start of the season we had probably the worst squad under Moyes tenure. A net result of virtually nil spend the previous two years.
973 Posted 23/04/2012 at 21:12:03
Now the players have seen what they can achieve, maybe we can continue to play in this manner. To be honest I thought we played some tidy football early season, we just had Saha missing sitter after sitter. Confidence evapourated and we fell into the boring mind numbing style that took us up to Christmas. Maybe, just maybe, Jelavic is the final piece in the jigsaw. Getting Piennar permenantly may be what we need to throw off the shackles!!!!
978 Posted 23/04/2012 at 21:42:49
All I know is we have no money for players,Moyes this to and decided to keep his squad together.
Take Cahill as an example,he is now past it and although i'd imagine other teams would take a chance on him because of the wages he would demand they wouldnt want to pay much of a fee.
So we're left in a situation were we're stuck with a player no longer good enough on big wages or let him go for next to nothing and unable to replace him.
I'd rather we didnt have to choose between keeping hold of players untill there not good enough or selling our better players to buy younger ones but thats the way it is.
980 Posted 23/04/2012 at 21:59:17
Paul unfortunately you are right about selling players and that is not an area where Moyes does well and I think Cahill is a good example of this. I remember reading an interview with Alex Ferguson and he said that knowing when to move players on who have done a good job for you is one of the hardest things to do. We could do a lot worse than taking a leaf out of Newcastle's recent approach to selling and buying players.
988 Posted 23/04/2012 at 22:37:36
Unbelievably, Ashley has somehow come up smelling of roses, as his manager has spent the cash very wisely, on crackers like Cisse and Demba Ba. As an approach, the results have been fantastic, but planned from the start ? I don't think so.
You could argue, however, that Moyes has pulled a similar stunt, wisely spending the Lescott money on the (usually !) superb Distin, Heitinga, and Jelavic (indirectly via Bilyaletdinov !!!).
991 Posted 23/04/2012 at 23:08:59
In those terms, we should forget about Pienaar, save up all our pennies and buy Sigurdsson from Swansea. He's only 22 and we could do with a goalscoring midfielder to replace Cahill. Sadly we won't have enough pennies to do that. If we did, we could have the benefit of him for a few years and make a profit selling him later on.
009 Posted 24/04/2012 at 02:02:24
With all the new players in (And please God, Pienaar back in permanent), we'll develop a balance between defending and attacking.
Would like to see our play replicated for these last few games, so we can figure out the balance into next season.
But Pienaar back in.
011 Posted 24/04/2012 at 02:29:57
Dalglish has been at Liverpool for just over a season and they have been in 2 cup finals and beat us 3 times. Pardew could get Newcastle into the Champions league in his first season. Moyes has been here for 10 years and is just an unlucky manager... maybe we might get a lucky one next!
015 Posted 24/04/2012 at 02:39:38
And I think most supporters would have been happy with that result given that we went for it rather than our usual turgid 'play for a draw and try and nick one' approach.
016 Posted 24/04/2012 at 03:55:32
018 Posted 24/04/2012 at 03:48:56
Can't fault him for that.
040 Posted 24/04/2012 at 09:31:28
Once we sat back, they easily got back into the game going 3-1,4-2 up and could have easily gone 5-2 up. Then they completely relaxed at this point , which is very unlike United, and allowed us back into the game.
Yes the game was dramatic but it was a game that we should have won but just like in last weeks semi we were tactically poor and low in belief when taking a lead.
United are an average team if you attack them throughout the match, eg, Blackburn, Wigan, Man City games.
Athletic Bilbao did this home and away and won convincingly. This was a team who were 7th in the Spanish league and a good 30 points behind the leaders.
061 Posted 24/04/2012 at 11:08:30
The Everton goal woke Utd up who were about as fussed as the Old Trafford crowd at that point. Sunday kick-off malaise was stinking out the joint and Everton took advantage.
065 Posted 24/04/2012 at 11:27:37
067 Posted 24/04/2012 at 12:08:17
What gets me is that we baulked at paying Pienaar another 10k a week and yet wei will have to stump up millions to buy him AGAIN. Levy is a shrewd seller who plays hardball and he wont be cheap.
The result at Man U was all about rebuilding egos, Moyes was stung by the criticism of him and the team and I think the players knew as well that they had let themsleves down. Moyes knows that after Saturday most fans, pundits and evertonians placed the blame at his door.
Also a world class centre forwrad e.g. Jelavic also helps. How many time shave we battered teams only for them to go and score at the other end.
Drop cahill, sell Rodwell and build the team around Baines, Heitinga, Fellaini and Jelavic
068 Posted 24/04/2012 at 11:46:19
I think its stretching it to the max (to say the least!) when you suggest that Moyes 'wisley' spent some of the Lescott money on Jelavic, via Billy. That has to be the biggest crock of shite I've read on these pages for a long time and has me in stitches shaking my head.
So lets see, spending 9m on a player, realising almost immediately that you dont rate him, yet keep him for 2.5 years whilst paying him about 40k a week, before then finally putting him out of his misery and getting some of the cash back (about 5m from the overall 14m spend!), that these days can be called 'wise expenditure'? Wow, I'm f'cking glad you're not my financial adviser - are you BK in disguise?
I'm all for having opinions, be they pro or against, but lets at least keep things this side of the loony bin. Jelavic has been a great buy so far and selling billy (finally) should have been done in the summer of 2010, i.e. 18 months earlier. However, the Jelavic buy and Lescott sale have absolutely jack shit to do with one another.
Back to the OP - was a great attitude/performance at OT but I still want a change in manager. Far too many false dawns in the past, leopard never changes its spots etc. Without a change who can say we won't be back to the same old shite in August (just like the last 3-4 years). (For the pro Moyes, before you come out with how can I be so sure it will be the same, am jsut going by the last few seasons....)
Bring on the spring (summer) cleaning.
Also Moyes, play the kids instead of f'king Macfadden for the remaining games! You cannot seriously tell me the he deserves it more than Vellios, Barkely etc. Even Anichebe deserves it more.
073 Posted 24/04/2012 at 12:47:46
As we saw with Moyes... getting in the top 4 can be done but building on that (or even staying the same level) is very hard to reproduce.
090 Posted 24/04/2012 at 13:38:11
093 Posted 24/04/2012 at 13:55:03
105 Posted 24/04/2012 at 14:03:54
The Man U /Everton game was vital for Man U, whenever it was played. They're going for the title against Man C!!
I said Man U are an average team if you try to attack them throughout the 90 mins. I think if teams try to do this they will have plenty of opportunities to score and have a 50/50 chance of getting something out of the game. If you go defensive, like Everton did, then they will build up a momentum and then usually dominate the game and win it.
Their wingers and attacking options still have some quality.However, defensively they are much weaker than previous seasons and if teams recognize this they have a good chance against them.
Everton seem to think they are a capable defensive team, they are not. They look like a relegetion team, whenever ,they try to defend a narrow lead for long periods, just look at the semi and parts of the Man U game. Even in the FA Cup away replay at Sunderland, a game which we dominated, we tried to defend for the last 15 mins, and they had chances to get back into it.
This is not a strong Premiership. The top teams in the Premiership are quite average when they meet quality Euro teams, eg Bayern Munich, Barc/Real,AC Milan.All the teams were Knocked out of Europe, before the Knock outs, except for Chelsea. Even Chelsea have had lucky escapes. I expect Barcelona to win easily tonight.
Man U were desperate to win the Europa Cup and regain some prestige having been beaten by Basel and hoped to meet Man C at some stage.
116 Posted 24/04/2012 at 15:29:49
I couldnt agree more.
Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal all have dodgy defences and fragile confidence when they come under pressure so if you never pressurise them they build up a head of steam.
I also believe Everton look better when they attack teams and get players in the opposing half.
141 Posted 24/04/2012 at 16:57:19
You are having a laugh in suggesting that it was Pardew who decided who to sell. I think everyone is quite well aware that Ashley wanted to balance the books, so they sold all of their high wage earners. Now I am all for replacing players when they get to their sell by date, but he got rid of Nolan,Enrique, Barton,Carroll,who were possibly Newcastles better players.
I doubt that there wasnt a Newcastle fan who didnt think that they would be hard pushed to avoid relegation this season. Yes they have done brilliantly but lets see how they get on next season. I would be happy to put £100 with the bookies to say they wont finish top 6 next year.
As I have said many times having a high finish in one season is one thing doind it over a number of seasons is a hard thing to do. Especially having no money to spend in the transfer windows. The reason all the pundits praise Moyes is because he produces a top 6/7 side year in year out. Lets see how Pardew and Rodgers and Lambert do next year, rather than asses one year success.
148 Posted 24/04/2012 at 17:09:42
170 Posted 24/04/2012 at 17:51:32
Roll on a few weeks and people are questioning him again. I think he looked like a different person on Sunday, someone with the attitude of whatever will be will be, and I think it is something to do with critisism from our own supporters. I don't believe he will leave or get the sack or Spurs and Chelsea will come in for him and, as for changing his attitude towards games, you can bet your last pound that, come next season, it will be back to caution.
209 Posted 24/04/2012 at 21:30:51
328 Posted 25/04/2012 at 11:16:03
I'm based in the North east and Newcastles policy of culling the older players and not paying silly wages e.g. Barton and Nolan has been brutal and effective.
The scaking of Chris Houghton was also brutal.
But the plaudits must go to Graham Carr, in the frenchman Johan Cabaye for me he has found the player on the year for under £4M. the scouting of the French and German leagues where finance and wages are more sensible is paying dividends for Newcastle.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.