Mr Dodd speaks for the silent majority of Evertonians. That's why there has never been any protest or protest group with more than a few hundred fans. Even the wildest claims would amount to no more than 1 or 2 thousand. Why is this?
Maybe it's because we all don't buy into the Murdoch thesis. You know the one, we must have a foreign owner/investment group. Even better with a foreign manager and no English players. They say it's modern football but please tell that to Barcelona, Real Madrid, Inter, AC Milan, Bayern Munich, Porto etc.
Thank god for Bill Kenwright who, like the great clubs mentioned, fights tooth and nail to keep this special club's history, culture & heritage intact to pass on to my son and his son. If I was just interested in money, I'd be a red not a blue. Keep up the good work, Mr Dodd, and, like all good Evertonians, let's hope for a good start to the season.
Gary Rimmer, Posted 27/07/2011 at 23:01:13
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1 Posted 28/07/2011 at 05:41:38
Wanting Everton to be owned by someone capable of purchasing the players we need to compete at the top has nothing to do with anything close to a Murdoch thesis. That's a terrible and quite pathetic strawman argument. I hate everything to do with Murdoch. I don't believe that Kenwright is refusing acceptable offers for the club. But I also don't believe he has done enough to find the appropriate buyer or make Everton attractive enough for a potential buyer.
I don't need conspiracy theories on one side and ultra loyal cries for sainthood from the other. If the club is simply doing their due diligence in researching their potential buyers then fine. I completely agree with that approach. But give us some details at this point about people you investigated and rejected so that we can know. And that sounds simple enough but I'm sure confidentiality agreements were signed. But unless you get the right buyer you're in trouble.
And to be honest only a couple of teams have gotten it right (City and Liverpool) and they both only got the right group on the second attempt. Liverpool almost went under with their first. City had a crook in charge and quite frankly lucked out with the Arabs. Birmingham got the wrong guy. I think Blackburn have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Villa's owner has done nothing except sell a lot of players and buy one for every two sold.
I don't think you're correct in your opinion of the majority of Evertonians, just as I don't think those who hate Kenwright and refuse to type out his proper name and instead go with a childish twist like Kenshite, are correct in their opinion. I think the majority of Evertonians are frustrated and want more investment in the club. They're frustrated at standing still over the past few years.
We know this team isn't terrible and that we're not actually being passed by the Wolves and Stokes of the world. They're buying a couple of players because the cost of their playing squad is tiny compared to ours. But we're frustrated at not being able to see how we can move above Spurs, Liverpool, and Arsenal, never mind competing with United, Chelsea and City.
2 Posted 28/07/2011 at 05:53:24
Everton's has a history of being one of the biggest clubs in England. Explain to me how in the fuck Bill Kenwright is maintaining that legacy.
Nobody wants to lose tradition and history but the difference is the Spanish sides you mentioned are all filthy rich.
If we keep our heads in the sand and rely only on tradition, we will eventually become another Sheffield Wednesday.
3 Posted 28/07/2011 at 05:56:56
4 Posted 28/07/2011 at 06:54:59
I would agree not too long back about your silent majority shout against the loud lads, who always knew that Kirkby would fail amongst EVERY other decisions the board seem to make. However, it seems now blues are waking up to what is happening.
Most of my blue mates don't read these Everton sites, only Bluekipper, so they do not have a clue about what actually went on with Kirkby, they don't know the issues with Phil Green or what has happened with that hole in the wall joke, or that AGMs are banned; they go the game, have a pint, and dsicuss the footy and I am sure that is a good reason why Billy bull has not had so many doubters until now.
And why is that? Could it be that reading the likes of Brian Reade etc has opened a few people's eyes to what is going on? You carry on convincing yourself he is good for this club but very soon you are in for a big shock unless he leaves.
5 Posted 28/07/2011 at 07:09:49
6 Posted 28/07/2011 at 07:19:15
1. What is the asking price in broad terms?
2. Given what the current regime paid for their majority shareholding and the increased debt they have placed on the club, how has that price been calculated?
If I got proper answers to these questions and felt that the answers were reasonable then I would get behind the current regime at the present time as I would accept they were genuinely seeking a buyer. I suspect many fellow Blues would do likewise.
7 Posted 28/07/2011 at 07:36:10
8 Posted 28/07/2011 at 08:04:27
The investment in clubs reflects this. Standing out as a traditional British ownded club isn't a sign of success or something to be proud of anymore.
It's a sign we are being bypassed by the international business community.
9 Posted 28/07/2011 at 08:10:43
10 Posted 28/07/2011 at 08:31:20
Bill "Green" Kenwright's special friend does not pay tax in the UK.
We are already foreign owned, and the masses are starting to mobilise to "fight tooth and nail to keep this special club's history, culture & heritage intact".
11 Posted 28/07/2011 at 08:27:08
Different opinions are fine, in fact it?s extremely healthy, but the personal abuse BK gets is just pathetic and whilst you maintain that sort of dialogue you will never succeed in any protest and genuine fans for or against BK will never follow you.
I like many others I?m content with our board, not happy ?content? all things considered; change is needed but it needs to be for the better and not just for the sake of it. COYB
12 Posted 28/07/2011 at 09:11:09
13 Posted 28/07/2011 at 09:22:19
14 Posted 28/07/2011 at 09:22:52
The ONLY way Everton will ever be champions again or win the European Cup is the same one and only way Manchester City will ever do it, i.e. massive investment.
Don't let anyone ever sell you the utter fantasy that it can be done through hard work and good planning. That's just a noble-sounding lie to quell dissent and to make longsuffering fans continue wasting funds on the club. If we or any club of similar standing have any player good enough for regular CL football, we always get them nabbed from us by the established elite sooner or later, and always before a team can be built around them to regularly contest the big prizes. Just look at the trouble Spurs are having with Modric as a case in point.
The time for winning trophies with hard work, etc. has long since passed. Man United and Liverpool FC both got in ahead of everyone else and established vast global fanbases from which they derive income to spend on players. We can't do that because the lion's share of the market belongs to them. Which explains why the ONLY way we will ever be listed among the ranks of Bayern, Barca, the 2 Milans, MUFC and LFC is if we gain income from investment equivalent to their incomes from shirt sales, etc to their enormous fanbases.
Naturally, those elite clubs do not want anyone new like us - or City - coming along and ruining their monopoly on trophies and income, so they cooked up the laughably termed "fair play" rules to exclude outsiders. But it is my view that money will prevail; it always does in business. And hence you will see City win things we can only dream of while we comfort ourselves with delusional notions about doing it the honourable, noble way, all the way to footballing oblivion, a la Sheffield Wednesday.
15 Posted 28/07/2011 at 09:45:01
We will never be great again with this kind of apathy in fans.
16 Posted 28/07/2011 at 09:55:03
I don't understand latin but NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM, like Labone said, you Gary seem to have forgotten what that means. Kenwright and Elstone are far from the best.
17 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:19:23
Total and utter bollocks of the highest calibre ? and not only is it bollocks, it's a sleight of hand. Those who actively support and thereby encourage the behaviour of our board should be hung by the bollocks from Rupert Tower...
A curse on both their houses ? the board, and the cretins who support them.
18 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:19:43
Therein lies the clue - the US have been building up the media value of their leagues for years, and paying silly money to players, with clubs (franchises) going to the wall on a regular basis seems to be part of that process. Even moving a franchise to another part of the country!
I believe there are 2 basic types of investor these days - those who can leverage on the media value to deliver tangible benefits to their wider business interests, and those who wish to just spend cash. Even the Glazers with their leveraged buyout have managed to deliver success - albeit the fear of failure must hang above them like an albatross.
Look at Man City. A senior official told a mutual friend that with all the hype around the club (even the antics of Balotelli etc), they get around 3,000 peices in the media reports globally on a daily basis.
And as for comparing with the Spanish giants, they negotiate their own tv & media deals, and get over 20 times what other teams get in the Primera Liga. Anyone who thinks that we'd be able to compete by selling our own TV rights is mistaken. Like it or not, the media model (developed and sold by The Premier League to the likes of Murdoch) is actually the most equitable of all the major leagues.
How the clubs capitalise on that increase in TV media value for their own benefit is down to their own commercial acumen.
19 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:27:21
So its doom and gloom time again at Everton. Another transfer window looks like passing us by, our big hope for the summer Charles N'Zogbia has signed for Villa, and Moyesy is once again talking up the kids and more disturbingly Victor Anichebe.
How different this could have all been, if it wasn't for a few campaign groups and the decision from some committee in Westminster.
A few years ago we as a club missed the boat when we could have had an iconic stadium on the waterfront. For whatever reason, and I believe it to be a £30m input from the club (I may be wrong on that), the stadium dream was gone forever.
Or was it, as we had another chance for a new ground as along come a world renowned company, albeit a grocery chain called Tesco headed by a diehard Blue, and top businessman Sir Terry Leahy. He promised to build us a Stadium a stone's throw from the City of Liverpool's boundary over in that 'woolyback' area full of non Scouser's called Kirkby all for next to nothing.
The stadium would have been on a 999 year lease, and would have been built with a minimal cash input from Everton. It would have been a stadium where Evertonians could have sat in comfort, instead of dodging the pillars at our beloved Goodison Park. The new stadium could have been put out to tender for the naming rights to maximise the cash revenue into the club, aka Emirates, JJB, Ricoh Arena etc etc.
Now let's picture the scene that we had got that Stadium. We would have been a Premiership club with admittedly still around £50m worth of debts, which in Premiership talk is next to nothing. Remember our beloved neighbours over Stanley Park were within an hour of going out of business for debts seven or eight fold of that amount. United owe £700m, and god forbid what City and Chelsea's debt mountain is to their benefactors. So fifty odd million was our pile, but now we do not have a crumbling stadium but a brand spanking new ground to play with.
The difference in our new world is that we would have had investors queuing up to buy Everton FC. Now with the new ground, the cash price would have still roughly been the same for the club, but any new owner would not have to even think about putting his hand in his pocket or like Liverpool putting their club into hundreds of millions of debt as Mr Leahy and Tesco have now built us our ground for generations to come and enjoy.
Every summer would not have been who we would have liked to buy, but it would have been who we seriously could buy, but thanks to the protest groups, and the stupidity of the propaganda of moving three miles up the road, Everton Football Club are destined to live from hand to mouth for many many years to come.
I hope I am wrong with that last statement, but would you part with £450m plus to buy a club, build a new ground and give Moyesy a few bob to build a team, unfortunately for us the Sheiks of this world, like the oil in the ground are running dry year by year.
Blaming Kenwright is easy, yes the man has his faults, but I believe certain factions of Everton fans have not helped our situation in their misguided belief that by moving a few hundred yards out of the City boundaries would have had a detrimental effect on the club.
It is great coming up with ideas, drawings and alike for new grounds, but we need one thing to build it with and it is hard cash, something at the moment that in life is in short supply.
Oh it could have been oh so different.
20 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:19:24
The only way Everton are going to become an elite club and have their own stadium is if Liverpool City Council can get the 2026 Commonwealth Games.
In todays football you need a lucky break, like Man C got in 2002 and West Ham U are going to get in 2012.
Everything else is daydreaming.
21 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:31:27
22 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:26:02
To sum it up;- The Bill Kentright approach or the Carson Yeung approach to owning a football club? It's a no brainer as far as I am concerned.
23 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:23:15
Since when has it been in Everton's history to not even be able to afford decent loan players whilst all around us, and particularly across the park from us, are buying big?
It's the board's job to enable the manager to put out a team that can compete. Personally, I'm not desperate for a billionnaire, just someone who can fulfil that job spec.
More and more Evertonians are waking up to the fact that this board is coming nowhere close to driving Everton forward. It's got sod all to do with Murdoch or those teams mentioned in the OP. Real Madrid, for god's sake? Oh, they're a great model - having been bailed out by the Spanish government more times than they've won La Liga in recent times!
I'm sure your hearts in the right place Gary but you're deluded if you think the Kenwright way is going to "preserve this great club intact for your son and his son". His way is leading us in only one direction and that's down and not long after, probably out.
24 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:37:28
25 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:40:30
He is a screw up who should have gone after the King's Dock fiasco. I work near the King's Dock and it galls me everytime I look at it.
His biggest crime now is that he is skint and a bit of a tit to go with it.
I don't hate him but I wish we could find someone to buy him out (if he actually owns the majority share....which I doubt he does)
Also the "silent majority" is probably men like me, in their late 30's or 40's who can't be arsed protesting when there is a cold pint waiting in Segura's before the game. they want Kenwrong out but are too lazy to do anything about it. Perhaps, we are the problem with the club, not the optimistic and naive ones. There's a thought!
26 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:43:26
27 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:44:00
28 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:52:53
29 Posted 28/07/2011 at 10:42:17
What surprised me is nothing has really changed apart from the players changing rooms having some refurbs done. The point being any prospective investors going around the stadium would be shocked at just how much work needs doing to bring the gound upto the standards now set by not only new builds but say the the likes of Molyneux, White Hart Lane and say Villa Park. Whoever tries to attempt to buy or invest in the club really has got a huge amount of money to spend before anything goes towards player investment.
My own view is this is the real problem for anyone who turns up with real interest in the club and realises just what's involved. Kenwright really has got a job on his hands trying to sell the club at the right price to someone with money to throw away.
30 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:03:11
"why is this"
Predominantly fear supplemented by apathy is the real answer.
31 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:16:29
Some very good points about the Kirkby move. I was neither for nor completely against moving. You say there would of been mimimal cash input from the club but the figured talked about at the time was £78 million which i struggle to see where we would have got that cash from. Totally agree about the Kings Dock fiasco, i too work close to the site and see it every day and it does stick in your craw to imagine a glorious stadium on the waterfront linking up with all the recent developments around this part of the city. The loss of this site was a defining moment in our history.
32 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:28:04
So fucking what?.... Where's the shame? Good luck to Man City, their long-suffering fans deserve it...
Anything has got to be better than this Kenwright/Moyes 10-year borefest.
33 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:33:37
34 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:36:45
35 Posted 28/07/2011 at 11:44:20
Case in point Coleman. The usual morons howling about how deep pockets down the road were spending huge numbers on established players and all we can do is scrape up £60k for some skinny kid from the peat-bogs. Turns out he's bloody good and a few months later those self-same morons are raving about him. Too much noise and not enough thought as usual.
Morons will be morons and all ours seem to come out to play close season.
Does anyone want shady foreigners taking the reins....no. Problem is a) they dont have to be foreign to be shady and b) they usually dont appear shady at first!. Like in those 20's film reels where you knew the bad guy because he had a dodgy mustache and arrows all over his suit....shady consortia wont be quite so easy for us poor fans to spot I'm afraid!.
So what the likes of the idiots on here want is, really, just someone to come along and take the pain away. Give the manager a few quid each window so they can feel good about themselves when watching Sky Sports transfer news and that'll be just grand!.
They much prefer some slack and easy excuses for why this happy nirvana hasn't been reached yet.
Is it because, as we see every day, our business has reached the limit of its current infrastructure and needs considerable investment to make any more money that no commercial investor has swooped in to take us on?.
Noooo of course not its all because Bill Kenwright is asking too much money for the club. Or, best one yet, the club isnt actually for sale!!!.
For pity's sake the Prem goes out, according to the BBC, to over 200 territitories worldwide and is seen by an estimated half a billion viewers. We are a part of one of the most globally visible sports markets on the planet. We dont need Elstone to stick a bloody ad in the Exchange and Mart to be for sale. We also do not have a single shareholder owning enough to prevent an interested party buying up enough stock to get a controlling interest. We are visible and plainly vulnerable to be taken over even if the board oppose the move.
Still though, to those in the know, idiot Kenwright - the man whose track record of stupidity is manifest before all Evertonians - is skillfully manipulating the billionaires and rich consortia who are stacked up trying to buy his train set!!!. Wait.....something doesnt track there does it?!.
No matter because we have the Peoples Group bleating aimlessly in the national media confirming the stereotype of the 'whining scouser' and that the old view of Evertonians as knowledgeable and switched-on is as far gone as the old girl herself.
Lots to be proud of.
36 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:20:23
Or is about control?
37 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:25:53
A stock offering is great, but, there has to be enough REAL interest in buying them to make it worthwhile. We don't sell them and we don't make anything.
With nothing down the track thats going to meaningfully increase our value as a club why would there be anyone interested, commercially, in buying?
38 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:35:00
39 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:27:09
Who are BCR Sports
Are you another who imagines potential owners would be queuing up to run to the press rather than just move on to a more realistically priced entry into Premiership football.The last time anyone went public was the shameful episode that saw Paul Gregg catapulted in favour of Chris Samuelson and his FSF
Where is our next transfer fund coming from and when will it be.
Is the current business model sustainable or befitting a PL club.
Lastly have you overdosed on Prozac.Perhaps it's time to fill in that repeat prescription to keep you going through the coming months.
40 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:32:06
41 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:45:15
So, if I want our manager to have a reasonable amount to spend each Transfer window ? say £20/25 Mill ? then I'm an idiot...
42 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:43:48
"We also do not have a single shareholder owning enough to prevent an interested party buying up enough stock to get a controlling interest. We are visible and plainly vulnerable to be taken over even if the board oppose the move. "
Do you know how Bill Kenwright obtained the money for his shares
Do you know how the money was raised to buy out Paul Gregg
Again do you know who is behind BCR Sports who control 23% of EFC
The idea that we do not have a single shareholder owning enough to prevent an interested party buying up enough stock to get a controlling interest is plainly daft.
43 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:55:02
44 Posted 28/07/2011 at 12:49:35
"Are you another who imagines potential owners would be queuing up to run to the press rather than just move on to a more realistically priced entry into Premiership football"
Its a very, very simple principle if you want a business seriously enough to invest the hundreds of millions we need at this point you dont fart arse around the edges.
More REALISTICALLY PRICED are you for real?. They need to drop in best part of a quarter of a billion pounds into Everton in debt removal and new stadium costs plus provide transfer fees for just a couple of top drawer players....do you want to think about what that means for a bit?.
In fact do you think we WANT buyers in who would quibble over a few tens of millions on the list price!?. Marcel Dassault coined the phrase 'If you have to ask the price you cant afford it" same situation exists here.
Do you think that if Kenwright turned aroud, to people who control money like that, and said no I'm not interested in selling that even the slightest attention would be paid to him?. Let him keep his 23% see what good it does him when they offer £2k per share to the owners of the remaining 77% and go to media with their investment plans for the club. You dont have to be on Dragons Den to work out the rest do you?.
Everything is for sale if someone wants it badly enough. At the money levels we are talking of in the Prem the 'sale price' is almost an irrelevence and immediately negotiable. For a company so resource-short and bereft of leadership as Everton FC to fend off serious acquisition attempts is so ridiculous as to not be worth talking about.
45 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:07:07
You hit the nail on the head there.If I had put a bid in I'd be inclined to run to the press claiming it was overpriced but that's because I'm an Everton fan.The typical businessman trying to buy into English football on the other hand would shrug his shoulders and move on.Kenwright himself has said there have been enquiries.
46 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:10:26
do you beleive the club to be run on a commercial sound business plan?
do you agree with the boards decison to sell all assets and lease back?
Take new owner out of the argument for a moment and ask yourself this .... our our board giving 100% to the club - all of them, not just kenwright, and are they running the club to its current potential?
47 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:13:18
If you have no emotive ties to the club you would have to see commercial opportunity to make the offer in the first place. Otherwise you wouldnt take the thing on if it was offered you free. Its not going to do anything for you so why bother?.
IF you have made an approach it is because you DO see opportunity and DO feel that you can make something out of the business that is to your profit. If thats the case going to the press with your 'new dawn is coming' message is a very cheap way of making the incumbent leaderships position untenable and negotiating ANY starting price downwards. You would have a marketing team assigned to the task immediately.
I do owe you one apology though I mixed up BCR with Kenwrights holding company. BCR of course being Earls. The point stands though that neither Earl or Kenwright alone could block a majority ownership bid.
48 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:18:27
Our manager has been provided with no transfer funds for 3 seasons in a row with none likely to be forthcoming for the foreseeable future either .
Is our place in the top eight / The Premiership sustainable without change ?
If not what is the reason exactly that you show no desire to change the status quo ?
49 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:23:38
I'm taking nothing out of context. You are.
The point of the thread here is whether the silent majority of Everton fans support the kinds of protest that the Peoples Group are running or not. The OP contends not.
There is no comment here on whether the business plans for the club are valid or not or whether sale/lease-back is appropriate.
I'm saying that the silent majority dont give a flying stuff.....they just want us to sign flashy players so we can compete in the transfers name game. When its shown we cant they want the slack jawed excuses so they dont have to think too hard about why we are in the trouble we are. They find those easy answers in the Peoples Group who, like KEIOC, offer a lot of recrimination and damned little else. All of which moves us forward not one damned bit.
50 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:39:29
The truth is we don't know, but what we do know is that some groups have been created and they have gained a lot of support and put the board on the backfoot. Also 90% of respondents to a TW poll want an interim board, thre were 1100 respondents, even for TW that is astounding.
So to sum up; there is no case for BK and his board, and his militant rump of followers have now resorted to "my gang is bigger than your gang" in response to it. My question is how old are you?
51 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:42:27
52 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:49:11
53 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:35:19
Simple. Change has to be for the better and no-one, yet, has shown me even the first clue as to how we can guarantee positive change.
There are no rich consortia waiting to gobble us up. I want Evertonians to face the reality that we need to make some very tough decisions soon and not scuttle behind the cover of a bunch of muppets who think that chucking blame about makes them good Evertonians offering easy fixes that wont come near to changing our fortunes!.
I want the fanbase to realise that we have to build a new stadium, with the right facilities to provide top-of-the-league revenue streams, or accept that we will never be able to afford the salaries of the top names in the game and, as such, we wont be able to compete sustainably at the very highest levels.
Personally I want a new leadership in, but, my choice would be for a board that show the leadership and balls to sell off Jagielka, Fellaini, Rodwell, Baines etc despite the howlings of the fanbase. Then use the high tens of millions netted PLUS a share offering at the right time PLUS naming rights and Goodison disposal to build us the stadium we need.
I want Moyes to have a chance at rebuilding the team, as he has done, with a chance of keeping the talent he wants and develops so we can do more than the odd challenge to the top echelons, but, we can SUSTAIN our presence year-on-year up there.
Change the status quo Andrew?. I've not seen anyone with more than a desire to whine their bleeding hearts out about it.
54 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:51:45
55 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:56:12
You, and those like you, are more interested in apportioning blame and listing errors than coming up with anything constructive.
You are looking backwards when we need to be finding a way forwards. Unfortunately for Everton FC most of the active elements of the fanbase are doing the same as you.
56 Posted 28/07/2011 at 13:56:52
57 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:01:15
As for the way forward: Interim board.
58 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:00:23
59 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:05:48
Interim board is like the Peoples Group. What does it actually achieve?. How do you sell something unsaleable.
New people at the helm...unless they do sell off enough players and take the necessary steps to raise the cost of a new 48k seater ground....aren't going to get us a transfer budget are they?.
"Seriously it doesn't matter if I come up with ten brilliant ideas it wouldn't make one iota of difference the same as you"
So you are full of fight when its the easy task of picking holes in someone elses performance....but when you are asked to deliver for YOUR club then its the boards job?.
Thats despite the litany of mistakes the board have made that you yourself have listed?. Do you not think you have a responsibility towards the club you support to at least try and do a bit more than sit off to the side chucking blame?.
60 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:11:39
Simple. Change has to be for the better and no-one, yet, has shown me even the first clue as to how we can guarantee positive change.
Personally I want a new leadership in, but, my choice would be for a board that show the leadership and balls to sell off Jagielka, Fellaini, Rodwell, Baines etc despite the howlings of the fanbase. Then use the high tens of millions netted PLUS a share offering at the right time PLUS naming rights and Goodison disposal to build us the stadium we need.
You've even started arguing with yourself as these extracts taken from the same post show clearly.You are that bent on muddying the waters of the protest movement that is gathering momentum that you don't even know what your saying or why your saying it anymore.
61 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:31:07
Whats difficult about this?. The best solution is a new board with the leadership to do what needs to be done for the long-term interest of the club.
We dont have that board anywhere nearby that is publically visible do we?.
The protests against the board fail to take in to account this one very simple and important fact.
In this circumstance the only people left with a 'pure' interest in the clubs running and development are the fans.
Put it all together. No new board, protest or not, and, in absence of new board, we have to have progress. That progress isnt coming from the current board as they are genuinely bereft of ideas and lacking in leadership abilities to make the hard decisions. We need to do better than useless whining.
Simple. Cant make it any clearer for you fella.
62 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:33:03
You've missed interviewing me so I expect an email or phone call from you in the next few days.
Or are you just a kid on your school holidays who's reciting the conversation they've had with their dad at the dinner table last night?
The fact is we're fucked. We're in a financial black hole that has been created by Kenwright and the board. No one can argue with the fact the club's finances are a complete mess and the're no plan to turn things around. It's the missed opportunites and mismanagement of the past 11 years that's led to this - all on kenwright's watch and mostly Kenwright's doing. It's not about wanting a foreign owner and foreign players, it's about bringing the chairman to account and it's about wanting a well run club that kids like you Gary can keep watching well after I'm dead and gone..
63 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:01:58
Have you posted before or are you another club plant?
If you are a club plant then you need to realise posts praising "Kenwright and cronies Limited" only wind supporters up more.
Unlike you I cant speak for the majority of supporters but I know through fellow blues,contacts and friends that there is a mass of swelling anti Kenwright feeling building right now.
You (like most club plants) argue against rogue foreign ownership yet most people I know are not bothered about who owns the club as long as they are competent businessmen who can help the club retain it's proud history not sell off every asset and mortgage the club to the hilt with unmanageable debt.
If Kenwright cared for the club he would have enlisted a proper professional to sell the club not just "look for investment" or at the very least would consider a rights issue to generate much needed capital injection.
You claim "Kenwright fights tooth and nail to keep this special club's history".
Where is the evidence:
1. Failed Kings Dock through Kenwright's ego and lies.
2. Failed NTL deal through Kenwright's incompetence.
3. Failed Fortress Sports Fund engineered to thwart Paul Gregg's capital injection into the club."The check will be in the bank in the morning" yeah sure.
4. Remove AGM's for the first time in the club's history to prevent small shareholders from questioning the running of the club.
5. The Kirkby debacle which cost the club 5 million in fees to "Experts"???
and which if it went ahead would forever have sold the soul of EFC.
6. Operating losses every season since Kenwright took over except for the Rooney sale year aided by unexplained "operating costs" which have risen from 1 to 22 million under Kenwright.
5.No investment in the playing staff for the last 3 years despite a number of player sales, not renewing certain player's contracts and loaning out players.
If you are a genuine supporter Gary are you proud of that.
64 Posted 28/07/2011 at 14:50:39
65 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:05:45
66 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:07:23
"or at the very least would consider a rights issue to generate much needed capital injection"
Once again though who's buying the shares?. You wanted to raise £15mn last time. 10000 shares. Are you sure a number that is equivalent to 30% of the matchday fan base have a spare £1500 and are guaranteed to buy?.
"...by unexplained "operating costs" which have risen from 1 to 22 million under Kenwright."
Whats happened to the wage bill in the same period....isn't this mostly tax etc?. Dont understand what the agenda is regarding operating costs?. Is the suggestion that money is being skimmed off or that we are paying too much on the business rates?.
67 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:21:33
"Other" Operating costs have risen from £1.2m to £23.8m way above inflation and they don't include players' salaries or agents' fees (the latter were published in another article), a straw-man argument avoiding what clearly is a valid point when these "other" operating costs reflect more than 20% of the company's annual turnover.
68 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:29:56
69 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:37:08
The main advantages of offshore companies are:
Nominee services through lawyers
Highest level of privacy protection
Limited liability without any paid-up capital requirement
Legal tax exemption
No taxation on any kind of income
No accounting requirements
No reporting requirements
No accountants costs
No requirements on profession or financial standing
Business can be conducted internationally
And many more...
70 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:14:04
"Still though, to those in the know, idiot Kenwright - the man whose track record of stupidity is manifest before all Evertonians - is skillfully manipulating the billionaires and rich consortia who are stacked up trying to buy his train set!!!. Wait.....something doesnt track there does it?!."
What doesn't track could be "Earle and Greene"
"More REALISTICALLY PRICED are you for real?. They need to drop in best part of a quarter of a billion pounds into Everton in debt removal and new stadium costs plus provide transfer fees for just a couple of top drawer players....do you want to think about what that means for a bit?"
You know this, how? I don't know if Bill wants a quid or a billion. Or are you guessing?
"If you have no emotive ties to the club you would have to see commercial opportunity to make the offer in the first place. Otherwise you wouldnt take the thing on if it was offered you free. Its not going to do anything for you so why bother?."
"Change has to be for the better and no-one, yet, has shown me even the first clue as to how we can guarantee positive change."
"You, and those like you, are more interested in apportioning blame and listing errors than coming up with anything constructive."
Could be because we don't work for the club.
"New people at the helm...unless they do sell off enough players and take the necessary steps to raise the cost of a new 48k seater ground....aren't going to get us a transfer budget are they?."
Second time you've said that. Into subliminal stuff eh, Robert....sorry Steve
Brass necked git.
71 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:34:27
That was, believe it or not, a genuine question.
I didnt try to answer what it was, but, I thought that PAYE, Business rates etc goes under the heading of 'operating costs'. I just looked back at the figures from a decade ago 2000/1 and the operating costs that year were over £8mn. Seems there is some variance in the figure?.
The question was why this figure is interesting?. Is the suggestion that we are paying too much in operating costs and that we need to negotiate *something* downwards or is there a belief that there is something shady going on?.
72 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:57:13
There is no proof of shady dealings as you well know.How could there be in the face of a staggering lack of accountability.
73 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:52:06
there is a totally unfounded feeling that it involves some sort of repayment to Green following the failure of DK.
The truth is nobody other than the people at the club knows what it includes but at 25% of income it is significant enough to warrant an explanation.
One further point is that until Kenwright took over we generally made a profit but every year bar 1 since he took over we have made a loss despite the enormous increase in Sky money to us and despite the fact we earned more than most by finishing in the top Quartile of the league most years.
74 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:43:06
"there was so much stuff beyond the condescending insults of the fanbase I've picked just a few."
In fairness not the whole fanbase!.
"What doesn't track could be 'Earl and Green'."
So Earl and Green are pulling the levers and keeping all the investors away from Bill's trainset. Awwww how sweet. Crinkle, crinkle goes the tinfoil hat.
"You know this, how? I don't know if Bill wants a quid or a billion. Or are you guessing?"
I'm saying it's irrelevent. If I see that I'm going to make a certain amount of money out of Everton, I will go in to a negaotiation with the board with a set price per share in my mind as an upper limit. If the board say they won't sell for that, I go around them, try to split Earl off from Woods and Kenwright, promise great things in the media, pay the fine for breaching confidentiality clauses, and let the board answer to the fanbase as to why there was a confidentiality clause in the first place.
Who looked at the land value Stamford Bridge sat on as a nice fall back should things not pan out?.
"Could be because we don't work for the club."
...and you don't have to take any responsibility whatsoever. Just sit back and wait for someone else to make the problems go away for you... occasionally telling them that they need to do things better along the way. Devoted fan aren't you?
"Second time you've said that. Into subliminal stuff eh, Robert... sorry Steve. Brass necked git."
Sorry pal was there another idea out there I missed?.= All I heard were a bunch of fans whining and the concept of an interim board who no-one seems to have stepped forward to form?
Brass necked? I'm watching the fans of the club I love pat themselves on the back because they've managed to get their whining noticed in the national media when they don't even know who could offer a solution to the things they are whining about. It's like watching my 4-year-old having a tantrum because it's raining and she can't play out! I'm past despair mate.
75 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:03:48
y = Other Operating Costs
z = No AGMs
Al three added up = Absolutely no accountability.
76 Posted 28/07/2011 at 15:45:27
He raises the issue that it would be very difficult for anyone to buy Everton and perhaps that is the reason we haven't been sold rather than Kenwright blocking the sale or not even having us up for sale. Yet everyone just rattles of the same old FSF/King's Dock/DK line for every single argument even though it's got nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Trevor, the quarter of a billion is a reasonable fee to approximate. Whatever Kenwirght wants, a buyer has to clear the £45 million debt and then pay anywhere from £250 mill upwards for a new stadium before he has even given Moyes a penny for transfers ? what part of that figure is being unrealistic? Why do you have to call him a brassed neck git for what is a completely reasonable point?
A small part of me is bthankful to the original poster for at least posting something different that diversifies opinion in the face of the almost intimidatory atmosphere on here for anyone who goes against the Kenwright out party line.
77 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:04:06
"there is a totally unfounded feeling that it involves some sort of repayment to Green following the failure of DK."
OK thanks. Hadn't heard that...as I said...genuine question.
"The truth is nobody other than the people at the club knows what it includes but at 25% of income it is significant enough to warrant an explanation."
Has the club refused to give an explanation?. Doesnt sound like it would be something of earth shattering significance to release how much we pay in business rates.....PAYE amounts etc could be a bit sensitive I guess if they are in fact included and listed individually. I'd agree that some kind of breakdown, redacted where necessary, should be possible?.
"One further point is that until Kenwright took over we generally made a profit"
Wage bill has rocketed in the same timeframe, but, yeah the point stands.
78 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:20:31
79 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:27:10
80 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:28:54
81 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:36:00
Given that he is prepared to lie even on national TV and lacks moral fibre, is it not reasonable to assume that his lack of morality could extend beyond the TV studio and into his financial dealings?
82 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:28:09
Well done to Steve Jones in this thread for the way he has presented his arguments and asked questions. Unlike some he doesn't claim to be more intelligent than anyone else or to know exactly what is best for Everton. Well done also to those who maintained a debate without resorting to point scoring and snide tactics.
From what I've read KEIOC, EfC and thepeoplesgroup have been clear in their stated aims and been consistent and dignified. Unfortunately they attract hyenas who just want to crow about how right and clever they are when in reailty all they do is throw insults around, repeat themselves and at their worst harrass the players on twitter about the board and lack of signings.
If people are serious about change then please do it the right way by being focused on presenting a compelling argument instead of back-slapping and congratulating each other on being great Evertonians who really care about the club. We all do, it's just not everybody sees it in black and white.
83 Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:48:27
"This thread sums up for me the problems we have at the moment. We have now reached the point where the extremists are in effect demanding that everyone takes side by either insulting or sidetracking anybody who offers a differing view.
Well done to Steve Jones in this thread for the way he has presented his arguments and asked questions. Unlike some he doesn't claim to be more intelligent than anyone else or to know exactly what is best for Everton. Well done also to those who maintained a debate without resorting to point scoring and snide tactics. "
Go back and read Steve's first post. 'Morons' is the phrase he used I believe.
84 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:01:29
1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.
Yes well done Steve for the way you have presented your argument and maintained a sense of decorum.
85 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:01:43
Richard Dodd only speaks for himself, nobody else. If you visit here regularly you will see a fair few who think Richard supports Bill Kenwright rather than EFC.
If you wanted to put people into brackets you would probably have Richard in one all on his own and Tony Marsh at the other end of the scale, all other Evertonians somewhere in between.
The truth is that like most of us you don't actually know what Bill Kenwright does, so we judge him on his actions. No doubt that there are more Blues on here who are wise to him than the average gang of lads outside the spellow or in the Gladwys, but the truth is getting out and it's only a matter of time before those who want the best for EFC turn.
Personally I believe anybody who refuses to believe irrefutable evidence of his many misdemeanours should join the flat earth society.
86 Posted 28/07/2011 at 06:50:12
demanding foreign owner - no just an owner that isn't a lying bastard and one that can run a business, if thats a man or woman or alien with seven heads I don't care and many others don't using this website as my proof, I also don't stand with the xenophobic card played by BK's apologistsj
fights tooth and nail - conjecture at most and a pretty hysterical claim, quantify what he does please?
pass on heritage to you and your son - by destroying the club as a business, he actually admits his business model was unsustainable two years ago, hope your son is ready right now to see Everton; if you want BK to stick around Everton won't exist as it does right now for much longer
Don't make rash claims for any minority or majority as you can't back it up, at best your own views which are reflected by Doddy and the odd club plant which have very recently appeared on these pages having never posted before.
87 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:17:40
To me a person who demands change without knowing, with absolute conviction, that the change will be for the better is deserving of the description 'moron'. Those who protest for the boards removal without the first clue of who will replace them equally so.
88 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:15:33
Perhaps the fans wanting to compete in the flashy name game actually watch a bit of football, the stuff with the round ball and the fancy kits, and see a team that is one or two good players away from having an excellent chance of winning trophies.
After all, that's what the 36,000-odd of us who turn up in rain, hail and snow go for.
You can go up and down the country and all over the world and usually a conversation with an Evertonian about football leaves you thinking they know what they're talking about.
You can make us out to be idiots wanting to keep up with the Joneses but the truth is we want to see our team compete for trophies and our club well run; if ever that's not the case then we are not upholding the traditions our club was founded on.
89 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:29:11
To me the person who see's things are failing yet does nothing is called a coward.
90 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:21:40
My annual return is pretty straight forward and I would see no reason not to break down the costs as my accountant completes the return on my behalf and I can guarantee the club's company accountant would do the same. The figure is labelled "Other operating costs" and includes director's expenses amongst other things, these are not the standard accountancy fees, PAYE, Corporation tax, etc which you'd assume could quite easily be labelled as exactly what they are.
Post an article highlighting these on a year-by-year basis to explain them if you feel they are perfectly valid.
91 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:17:32
Personally, I think this is much more than a black-&-white issue; many of the viewpoints Steve is presenting at least have some merit and are worthy of consideration and discussion in trying to reach an informed and ? dare I say 'balanced' assessment of the situation we are in as a club.
Can we please all just back off the insults and just discuss the issues?
92 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:36:02
93 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:44:42
Stop using this website to call fellow Evertonians 'morons'.
There is no justification for that and we do not tolerate it.
94 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:41:58
Calling others 'Extremists' and reading Steve's posts through blue-tinted specs, failed to mention Steve's put downs.
95 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:50:38
96 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:50:13
This is actually worthy of discussion
"To me a person who demands change without knowing, with absolute conviction, that the change will be for the better is deserving of the description 'moron'. Those who protest for the boards removal without the first clue of who will replace them equally so. "
You say you want the board removed yourself Steve.Do you honestly think you or I or the thousands of other Evertonians out there will have any control over who the next owners will be .
if not why delay ??????????
97 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:49:38
No Liverpool fan claimed that the feller from the Red Sox would buy them out, they just wanted those two heroes of mine out of their club because of how poorly it was being ran. But once the pressure was on, then this successful business man and sports fan came into the picture from seemingly nowhere. Seems to have done alright for them so far.
As fan's it is not our responsibility to track down rich men looking to buy the club or invest - apparently though they are the same thing. However, it *is* our responsibility to see when the shit has hit the fan and make a stand and say enough is enough, let somebody else have a go.
98 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:00:29
Tbh, and granted I don't know the kind of things they look at before passing or failing any buyers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bill would have failed had this been in place all them years ago.
99 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:00:07
Surely you concede this point, Steve???
100 Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:28:30
"What doesn't track could be 'Earl and Green'."
"So Earl and Green are pulling the levers and keeping all the investors away from Bill's trainset. Awwww how sweet. Crinkle, crinkle goes the tinfoil hat."
When a possibilty is proffered and you want to rebutt, try argument rather than childish sarcasm to be taken seriously - if you know they're not doing it I'd be interested in your facts.
"You know this, how? I don't know if Bill wants a quid or a billion. Or are you guessing?
I'm saying it's irrelevent."
No you didn't.
Who looked at the land value Stamford Bridge sat on as a nice fall back should things not pan out?. "
When did he tell you this? What is the land value compared to his investment?
"Could be because we don't work for the club."
...and you don't have to take any responsibility whatsoever."
Financially no, ignoring the thousands during my lifetime I've paid supporting the club. On a broader point if the board answered pertinent questions supporter involvement at a direct level would doubtless work as it is supporters groups, KEIOC being the obvious, have put their informed suggestions to the club. I believe at this time the board are not interested in exploring such initiatives.
The "devoted fan" jibe was petulant and again makes it difficult to take you seriously.
I won't deal with the 2 occasions you went on about selling players because your last missive didn't quote it although you appear to reference it at the end.
Try again, be less emotive and I'll have another look.
You did well avoiding the "moron" type remark - well done.
101 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:00:43
I think this is Steve's weakest point. Historically we have the precedent of Johnson's removal: the case can be made that this was driven initially by fan unrest ? with no knowledge or plan for succession. That is indeed how it happens and Steve should recognise this, rather persisting within his pathetic "morons" rubbish.
Taking the comparison further, and without checking in detail, it was something like a year after PJ announced he was selling up, before BK and TBH finally brokered their deal. But I think it can be argued a key step was fans' unrest and protests at PJ's handling of the club that was the primary catalyst for that ultimate takeover.
102 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:08:40
103 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:11:58
That price dropped and dropped over the months until the ultimate valuation agreed for TBH was around £30M. But Bill Kenwright's consortium was the only one in the ring.
104 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:15:07
105 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:18:50
The lesson could be a painful one: even if Kenwright agreed his time was up, finding a buyer could be difficult.
Ooops... and we come full circle....
106 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:18:00
A. He's lying;
B. His price, like Johnson's initial price, is too high but, unlike Johnson, he is unwilling to lower it.
I'd go for A believing he has always thought there is money to be made out of an eventual ground move and possibly more if online streaming came into play.
107 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:26:19
108 Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:17:58
109 Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:40:59
Over the past 10 years performance on the pitch has improved. So has the retail side, greater city centre presence, better commercial deals, better shirt sponsorship. The calibre of player has also improved dramatically.
You can argue rather validly that the rate of progression hasn't been what it could've been. What is undeniable is that we have improved even if in your own opinion it is painfully slowly. Perhaps we are indeed embarking on a downward slope in the 'Everton cycle' , after a few good years we will regress somewhat and that indeed would be bad. But to say that we are spiralling towards the abyss? There is nothing apart from personal opinion on the current state of affairs to suggest this.
110 Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:54:18
Steve, a new version of Neil P and worthy of a debate, have you considered trying to drag up the annual figures into a table so we can make our own minds up about the rise in the other operating expenses?
111 Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:59:05
112 Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:38:15
Your vision of how the club should move forwards is completely juxtaposed to anything Kenwright is doing. You don't make any sense. I think most of us agree we need to move grounds and there isn't a long line of billionnaires waiting to buy Everton. We just need a board that can deliver exactly what you've proposed is needed. Kenwright and his cronies aren't that board.
113 Posted 28/07/2011 at 22:02:56
114 Posted 28/07/2011 at 22:02:45
If you read Steve's original post other than saying people want to play top trumps the rest was simply attacking people with a different view point - no points of debate at all.
Given the petty insults it was pretty pointless.
115 Posted 29/07/2011 at 00:26:00
Do you still carry on till you are 20-0 down or do you save the guy from further embarassment by hooking him off.
I know where a lot of commensense Evertonians would draw the line.
It is OK to fear the unknown but to carry on aimlessly failing and continuing to deteriorate with no plan nor hope in sight is ridiculous and of Titanic consequence.
116 Posted 29/07/2011 at 00:06:36
"Stop using this website to call fellow Evertonians 'morons'. "
Michael your pitch your rules. Naturally I will abide by those rules, but, I stand by my earlier reasoning - if that presents a problem then by all means delete my account. You've given fair warning and what I've written a fair hearing. No complaints here.
Steve Kenny (#88),
"Perhaps the fans wanting to compete in the flashy name game actually watch a bit of football, the stuff with the round ball and the fancy kits, and see a team that is one or two good players away from having an excellent chance of winning trophies."
They dont know very much then do they. Its irrelevent if we pick up one or two good players and win a trophy if the 'good players' we pick up and win 'a trophy' with get tempted away the first close season after we win it. Its exactly short-termism like that that put a bullet through Pompey and Leeds. You build the squad and give it time together to gel as a unit and, most importantly, keep it together and the trophy's follow. If you cant pay the competetive wages you cant build a sustainable challenge. Moyes knows this.
"You can make us out to be idiots wanting to keep up with the Joneses but the truth is we want to see our team compete for trophies and our club well run; if ever that's not the case then we are not upholding the traditions our club was founded on."
I've no problem with fans wanting to see the club right up at the top. I have a problem with those unwilling to look at the realities of our situation, instead, looking for the easy 'quick fix' solution.
"To me the person who see's things are failing yet does nothing is called a coward"
To me the person who kneejerks into an ill-considered reaction and makes his situation worse not better deserves all he gets.
"No Liverpool fan claimed that the feller from the Red Sox would buy them out, they just wanted those two heroes of mine out of their club because of how poorly it was being ran. But once the pressure was on, then this successful business man and sports fan came into the picture from seemingly nowhere. Seems to have done alright for them so far."
Once the bank had them on the verge of repossession you mean?. They had a power vacuum at the top that meant they couldnt turn down the offer that came in no matter what as the alternative was administration!. Their merchandising and brand made them very attractive and they still had to go right to the wire before there was a saviour on the doorstep. These guys, then, have sold off the clubs star striker against the wishes of their fanbase and, so far, have done nothing for the clubs long-term competetiveness.....no word on the stadium!. What new money they've spent is tinkering around the edges of the clubs issues - I'm not impressed by them. I dont look at just the money spent though.
"As fan's it is not our responsibility to track down rich men looking to buy the club or invest - apparently though they are the same thing. However, it *is* our responsibility to see when the shit has hit the fan and make a stand and say enough is enough, let somebody else have a go."
Let somebody else have a go?. Of course its our responsibility to be involved with the club if we call ourselves fans. Who else cares?. The board?. The FA?. Everyone here is saying that the board cant be trusted with a telly remote control let alone the levers of power at the club....yet you are quite happy to leave things to them to find their own replacements and just carp and whine when they dont...what???. We cant leave the same power vacuum at the top as LFC did as we do not have LFC's commercial attractiveness to offer to get us a half-way decent owner in a pinch so we need a clean handover to a new fully vetted regime. The chaotic scramble that happened with LFC's transfer of power cant happen for us as god knows what we'd end up with as a board. We need to do better than that. If no-one else is going to do it then we have pressure groups that have been around for years - let one of them step forward and, as I've said here before, get a mandate from the fans, matchday and online, and use that mandate to start trying to find interested parties.
"Historically we have the precedent of Johnson's removal: the case can be made that this was driven initially by fan unrest ? with no knowledge or plan for succession. That is indeed how it happens and Steve should recognise this"
Thats the thing I dont recognise this. You might say there was a catalyst effect, but, without Kenwright nothing would have come of it. That in itself has to be a salutory lesson about what taking people onboard without a degree of forethought. Back to the point you must accept that the nature of the game has now changed and the need for the right ownership and risks from the wrong people coming in are far greater now. Recent experience with LFC, Newcastle, West Ham and Aston Villa shows that fan protest is utterly inneffective.....apart of course for short-term morale of those doing the protesting.
I'm trying to work out where you think I'm supporting Kenwright?. You've quoted my position quite clearly.
My position here is that the board aren't going to help us so we take steps to help ourselves....until such time as candidates for a new board can be identified and approached
That as opposed to the status quo where we are sat on our collective thumbs wallowing in self-pity about how terribly hard done to we are.
"the rest was simply attacking people with a different view point"
Bit of a spin there isn't it?. Attacking people with a view point that they cant defend taken in ignorance. How many have decried the board and want them out, but, when you point out that a replacement is required that doesn't exist as yet you get the "oh yeah....well....we need the right people at the top dont we". Its all form and no function and we need to do better than this. I think thats a fair observation.
Done my best to cover points in one response raised by several contributors. If I've missed anything huge I'm sure you'll point it out for me in due course!.
117 Posted 29/07/2011 at 02:31:05
You forgot (purposefully ignored?) post #98 where I mention "fit for purpose". Yes, I admit that I don't know the ins and outs of this process; however, your statement does suggest that you're choosing to ignore its existence.
Secondly, "god knows what we will end up with?" which smells a bit of 'Bill Kenwright's not all that bad... it could be worse'?...
118 Posted 29/07/2011 at 06:28:41
You imply that Kenwright's presence last time around ensured such a smooth and well-planned transition, with confidence about who was taking over the club.
Hopefully you have moment to read through the following timeline, drawn from our Season Diary of news stories over a tumultuous 16-month period of incredible uncertainty that went from November 1998 thru May 2000:
24 Nov 1998: Goodison's own Braveheart ? the team captain, talismanic iconic and belligerent striker, Duncan Ferguson ? is no longer an Everton player. After passing a medical at Newcastle United this afternoon, Ferguson is to be paraded as Ruud Gullit's first acquisition (for £8M) to play along side Alan Shearer and in front of Everton's previous captain, Gary Speed. Walter Smith was blind-sided by the move which Peter Johnson orchestrated behind the manager's back, leaving the vast majority of Everton fans seething with anger and frustration.
26 Nov 1998: Walter Smith explains how Peter Johnson kept him in the dark about Ferguson's transfer.
30 Nov 1998: Peter Johnson finally steps down as Chairman, but he remains on the Board as non-executive director. Sir Philip Carter becomes Chairman, with Bill Kenwright appointed as Vice-Chairman.
1 Dec 1998: It will likely take some time for Peter Johnson to divest his massive 68% shareholding in Everton, but rumours abound of new consortia or other financial backing for life-long Evertonian Bill Kenwright to take full control of the club in the near future.
15 Dec 1998: Lots of talk about the South African connection, with Evertonian Ian Kilbride interested in investing his Spirit/Appleton money in Peter Johnson's shares. Fears also that he could just be a Johnson muppet.
22 Dec 1998: Peter Johnson is believed to be close to a deal on selling his interest in Tranmere Rovers. This must be completed by the end of December to avoid problems from the Leagues' governing bodies.
24 Dec 1998: Conflicting rumours suggest that Bill Kenwright is close to making a substantial bid for a major chunk of Peter Johnson's shares in Everton.
31 Dec 1998: Peter Johnson has been given some extra time by the league authorities to sort out his club ownership position. A sale of his interest in Tranmere Rovers is though to be imminent.
14 Jan 1999: Peter Johnson apparently thinks the furore over his handing of the Duncan Ferguson debacle has now died down, and he is even thinking about attending matches again!
18 Jan 1999: The Goodison-for-Ever-ton movement held a 2-hr meeting yesterday with Peter Johnson, discussing the latest ground-move options. Both the Club's banker's and the GFE's architects have finalised their respective feasibility studies but neither have yet been made public.
1 Feb 1999: Peter Johnson has friends in high places... The deadline for him to resolve his dual ownership of Everton and Tranmere Rovers has been extended for a second time.
5 Feb 1999: Everton shareholders have asked the Premier League to investigate Peter Johnson's takeover of the club in 1994, citing a conflict of interest over his simultaneous holding in Tranmere Rovers.
15 Feb 1999: Reports suggest that Bill Kenwright is getting closer to finalizing the financial package for Peter Johnson's consideration.
22 Feb 1999: Everton Supporters Alliance [?Association?] has gathered over 10,000 signatures to a petition demanding that Peter Johnson ends his disastrous involvement with Everton Football Club.
15 Mar 1999: 15th: The investment banking arm of one of the biggest banks in the world, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC), is understood to have assembled a consortium of financial backers prepared to underwrite Bill Kenwright's bid to take over control of Everton FC Co Ltd from estranged and discredited majority shareholder, Peter Johnson.
19 Mar 1999: Cold water has been poured on Bill Kenwright's Everton takeover bid by the spectre of relegation, and the fear that nothing will be sorted until the status of the club for next season has been established.
29 Mar 1999: Representatives of HSBC's investment banking arm have been visiting Goodison and Bellefield, as a precursor to the next stage of Bill Kenwright's takeover bid.
5 May 1999: The Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation have issued a statement ending their business relationship with Bill Kenwright, and terminating any backing for his efforts to put together a bid for Peter Johnson's shares. Kenwright vows to "fight on" for ultimate control of the club and is already talking to two other banking groups.
9 Jun 1999: Walton MP Kilfoyle has started asking questions about Peter Johnson's illegal ownership of two senior football clubs.
10 Jun 1999: The Everton Shareholders are getting ansi following an inconclusive AGM where the club maintained that it could not talk about the stillborn takeover process: according to Takeover Panel rules, the only one allowed to speak is Peter Johnson!
1 July 1999: The fear and trepidation that Everton could be banned from one or both Cup competitions, because of Peter Johnson's continuing illegal ownership of two clubs, has been abated by assurances from the FA, who did nothing about this problem last season.
18 July 1999: Despite a resurgence of tabloid rumours, Bill Kenwright has stated that he will not be making a takeover bid this week.
7 Aug 1999: In view of Peter Johnson's ownership of Everton and Tranmere the game's ruling bodies have decreed that players transferred between the clubs will need the prior approval of the Premier League and Football League.
9 Aug 1999: Bill Kenwright has made another Soundbyte Soliloquy about being in the final stages before making a bid for Peter Johnson's shares. But there has been no bid yet.
10 Aug 1999: A Wirral businessman and friend of Peter Johnson, Gerry White, is reported to be planning a rival bid for some of Johnson's Everton shares.
13 Aug 1999: Due to Peter Johnson's continued flouting of league rules, the Football League have put Andy Williamson, the League's Director of Competitions, in to oversee the running of Tranmere Rovers, who have been banned from conducting any more transfer deals with Everton.
15 Aug 1999: If he does not hear something soon from Peter Johnson (who claims there are at least three other bidders), Bill Kenwright will withdraw his informal bid that would reportedly pay Johnson £19M for his 68% stake in EFC.
23 Aug 1999: September 2 is the deadline set by Peter Johnson for bid submissions for his 68% holding in the club. Bids so far received include one tabled by vice chairman Bill Kenwright and one from fan group Investors in Everton.
2 Sep 1999: Today sees the deadline supposedly imposed by Peter Johnson for the receipt of bids for his stake in Everton. Is Kenwright's still in there? Or will the Investors in Everton be successful in their bold co-operative plan? Or will Peter Johnson flip them off again, by denying there ever was a deadline?
3 Sep 1999: Although Bill Kenwright has secured £30M in finance and made his bid ? thanks in part to Spurs fan Peter Green ? Peter Johnson is refusing to acknowledge Kenwright's bid, and apparently has no intention of selling Everton to him.
5 Sep 1999: Tabloid talk of a mass walkout by the Manager and Board at Everton has been rightly ridiculed by the Club. It will simply plunge Everton into the leaderless chaos created by the power vacuum... Hang on ? we're there already!
8 Sep 1999: Everton's Shareholders Association have formally called for an Extraordinary General Meeting of the company to supposedly put Johnson on the spot, assuming he actually makes an appearance. However, the meeting will not take place for another 6 to 8 weeks.
11 Sep 1999: The big rumour today is that Bill Kenwright would formally lodge his long-awaited bid to take over Peter Johnson's controlling interest in Everton FC...
17 Sep 1999: The week of the Big Bid from Billy Boy is up, and ? surprise, surprise ? No Bid. The respective share valuations by Kenwright and Johnson differ by about 75%, or £15M, whichever way you want to cut it.
20 Sep 1999: Sept 20: John Moores, the Liverpool director and son of Everton's legendary custodian, Sir John Moores, has admitted that selling his Everton shares to Peter Johnson was a mistake.
21 Sep 1999: Peter Kilfoyle, MP for Walton, has reported Peter Johnson to the Department of Trade and Industry for his questionable dealings in the football business.
3 Oct 1999: The silly Sunday story today centers around the rumoured interest of millionaire DJ Chris Evans and a £50M bid for Peter Johnson's shares. Terry Venables could also be part of any deal.
5 Oct 1999: Journalist Ian Ross is claiming in The Guardian that a stunning new bid for Johnson's Everton shares is -? you guessed it ? just two weeks away. This time, its Manchester University graduate, Iranian ex-footballer, and international diamond merchant, Hedy Shor...
6 Oct 1999: Newspaper reports have Hedy Shor flying in imminently for face-to-face talks with Peter Johnson to establish a price of Everton shares... Any advance on £38M?
14 Oct 1999: Rumours abound that a "mystery bid" of £24M is about to be made by an unnamed financial institution for Peter Johnson's shares.
16 Oct 1999: Peter Johnson has apparently accepted an offer from American Investment Bank, EM Warburg Pincus & Co, subject to negotiating a contract and completing a due diligence review of Everton's books. But there are other bids also: this may just be the beginning of the end for the much-hated Peter Johnson.
18 Oct 1999: The bidding finally gets serious, with as many as three interested groups vying for Peter Johnson's 68% stake in Everton Football Club Co Ltd.
19 Oct 1999: In the Takeover Saga, Iranian diamond magnate Hedy Shor's British representative, Younes Sabet, has now contacted Johnson's people at Arthur Anderson to make their interest in the club takeover official.
22 Oct 1999: In Everton's 120th AGM, Sir Philip Carter explained how the rest of the Board were kept in the dark by Peter Johnson's whip-hand over the finances, and Walter Smith blew off some steam about gross mis-management of club, including the true tale surrounding the departure of Big Dunc.
2 Nov 1999: Warburg Pincus have pulled out of any bid for Johnson's shares, probably as a result of their due diligence exercise.
4 Nov 1999: Nov 4: Read a detailed analysis of the takeover morass that pulls no punches, from David Conn in The Independent.
6 Nov 1999: The latest twist in the takeover saga reported in the Financial Times is that Philip Green, who bought out Sears, is backing Billy Kenwright's non-bid of £21M for Johnson's shares.
30 Nov 1999: Walton MP Peter Kilfoyle has been blowing his top in frustration over the impotence of the football authorities in dealing with Peter Johnson's blatant breaching of their rules on dual club ownership.
9 Dec 1999: The Independent Blues have called off a protest at Park Foods tomorrow (Friday) against Peter Johnson after the ex-Chairman agreed to give the association an update on the takeover saga...
12 Dec 1999: The Independent Blues ? after originally announcing a demonstration at Park Foods ? have been contacted by Peter Johnson himself. A meeting will be taking place in the next day or so.
15 Dec 1999: Peter Johnson met with the Independent Blues at noon today, somewhat reluctantly after trying to give them the brush-off.
22 Dec 1999: Ian Ross insists in The Guardian that Bill Kenwright is 48 hours away form submitting a paltry £21M bid for Peter Johnson's shares.
24 Dec 1999: The word late on Christmas Eve is that Peter Johnson has accepted in principle Bill Kenwright's £21M bid for his 68% shareholding in Everton FC. The agreement amounts to an exclusive deal which will prevent other bids form being lodged, and which will only fail if Kenwright backs out. Due diligence will now occur, mainly as a formality before the official transfer of share ownership takes place early in the New Year.
5 Jan 2000: Lawyers and accountants are due to start their detailed examination of the books at Goodison Park in the penultimate step, called due diligence, that should pave the way for Bill Kenwright's £20M takeover bid to go through.
25 Jan 2000: As the deadline expires tonight, Kenwright has reportedly made his formal £20M bid to buy Johnson's shares, and anyone else's who wants to sell at today's clearance price of £857.
26 Jan 2000: Although there has been no official acceptance of Kenwright's bid by Peter Johnson, it seems that the making of the offer itself is enough to signal completion of the deal. All media sources are now proclaiming Bill Kenwright as Everton's new majority share owner, even though the process will not be completed for at least another month.
2 Mar 2000: The offer made by Bill Kenwright's TrueBlue Holdings to purchase Peter Johnson's shares in Everton FC Co Ltd has been accepted unconditionally. Peter Johnson has now resigned his position as Director; he is replaced on the Board by Paul Gregg and Jon Woods.
22 May 2000: "I'm not just making empty statements" says vice-chairman Bill Kenwright, as he reviews the immediate financial needs after his takeover put the Club back on a firmer footing: "There is structure now."
119 Posted 29/07/2011 at 06:56:25
You're sounding like demented politicians: there must only be your point of view. But what really makes me laugh is this idea that EFC have dominated English football and have fallen from grace ? we have always been one of the crown jewels of English football who have won trophies throughout our history but never on the regular basis that some posters try to insinuate.
We should rightly always be spoken about as a top six club. But crisis that was when we were in the second Division. Rose-tinted glasses? ? no, just someone who wants the club to be run right for the next four decades and a new £20M striker... and the wife to be 18 again. But hey, we don't get everything we want... but it doesn't mean I still don't love her.
I can remember Everton starting many pre-seasons with much worse squads... being that skint that I was singing my head off for a whipround for super tash Terry Curran.
Lighten up ? we could be Villa.
120 Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:03:09
What do you want me to post that hasn?t already been said a thousand times? Ok if you start to look forward as opposed to backwards, I will seriously consider offering a full business plan to move forward. I do have some ideas but it's difficult not knowing our long-term liabilities... but what I would offer will cost the average fan a lot more and it would take investment from the board and fans alike.
We could do a bond issue based on the board backing up every penny from the fans with an unsecured like-for-like investment as a starter and this would help unite the fanbase and not dilute the share value which is important to the board, like it or not. The cash raised must be passed to stadium development and not player costs. The future of EFC as a business is based on our earning potential and not how much we pay the players.
So, in simple terms, every £1 raised by fans is matched by the major shareholders; obviously fans having bonds will need some sort of VIP association to the club to be it guaranteed tickets or more points on their ticket account, as an example, but this will only work if fans wish to join the scheme and that?s not guaranteed.
Anyway, I have work to do. COYB
121 Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:15:44
"You imply that Kenwright's presence last time around ensured such a smooth and well-planned transition, with confidence about who was taking over the club."
Sorry but no such implication was intended. My point was more to do with the ineffectual nature of fan protest. My point, simply, being that it was money changing hands and not the fans protest that, bottom line, was the instrumental factor.
You are right that I view the clamour for ungoverned replacement of the board as reckless and dangerous. There are no commercial motives for someone taking over the reins at Everton - our business has hit the ceiling of what our facilities will allow. We can do better with the merchandising, but, even with improvement there we aren't going to reach the kind of returns that would draw in business interest. So, unless we find someone who wants to use us like Man City - as a vehicle to accomplish a specifc task - we have to question the motives of anyone who comes in......who isnt a fan....to take us over.
We are in a much more precarious and vulnerable position than an outfit like Liverpool were and if we introduce instability at the top with a straight power vacuum or with a weak, ill-conceived, interim board we compound that. We need to have stability or the sharks out there will sense blood in the water and start to circle.
122 Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:40:05
"Secondly, "god knows what we will end up with?" which smells a bit of 'Bill Kenwright's not all that bad... it could be worse'?.."
.....and once you've hunted all the witches start going for those who smell like witches eh?.
Ridsdale, Shinawatra, Gaydamak, etc, etc. The current board cant take us forward and deserve little credit for their performance, but, lets not kid ourselves that there isn't far worse out there eh?.
Perhaps you are forgetting that real hardship is watching your club being unable to pay the wage bill or your club facing a winding up order. We have the stability for an ordered transition when candidates willing to take on the job can be found. Anything else, quite simply, gambles with the future of the club. I, for one, find that unacceptable.
123 Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:54:05
124 Posted 29/07/2011 at 10:46:47
I dont doubt you are describing many in the fanbase, but, look at the crap spouted about how terrible it is we missed out on Lonergan or Wes Brown or.....or.....etc.
A 3rd choice keeper when we have full internationals as 1 and 2....a tired castoff defender who wasn't that great at his best.....yet our fans shake fists mightily that we aren't beating the likes of Sunderland, a team far beneath us in stature, to the signing of these players.
Sorry mate but in no footballing sense can you say that the world ends because we aren't putting Wes frigging Brown in a royal blue jersey. Its pure Top Trumps.
125 Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:04:59
22 Feb 1999: Everton Supporters Alliance [?Association?] has gathered over 10,000 signatures to a petition demanding that Peter Johnson ends his disastrous involvement with Everton Football Club.
Wonder what the silent majority made of this.
126 Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:06:38
127 Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:46:10
I'm not quite sure what you are, so knowingly, suspicious of. I've made my point very clear. The silent majority are, shall I say, too easily led with not enough stopping to question the wisdom of storming the Bastille as is so desired by some.
I dont want the current board at the helm, but, I'm a damnsight more scared of a power vacuum at the top that leaves us facing dubious ownership or administration as our two options.
128 Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:53:55
129 Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:50:49
Steve I`m particularly interested in your idea of selling off the "star" names and putting the proceeds towards building that all important stadium.
I like it and would be prepared to support a board who told us that they were going to try and get through the next few season using a combination of home grown talent and good affordable pro`s. It is at least a "plan".
However, without the backing of the fans it simply couldnt work, to many fans its today that counts, the here and now and it would be difficult to convince them that their patience will be rewarded in 5-6 years.
I`d be interested in your thoughts about a couple of possible senarios ; What if attendances nose dived ? -some people only come to see the "stars" and its often difficult to get people back once they have found other things to do with their Saturday afternoons.
And what if we where relegated in the interim period ? - a possibility we have to consider.
What would be the use of a new stadium if the people we needed to fill it have drifted away ?
A huge gamble, although one I personally would be willing to take.
The trouble is, this board, particularly Kenwright have long since lost the trust of many Blues, whether they represent the majority is doesnt even matter, we will never have anything approaching unity while Kenwright is at the helm.
You are probably right, there is no queue to take over at Everton and Bill will only be moved upstairs if he does it voluntarily.
130 Posted 29/07/2011 at 13:52:05
"So you want the current board to stay in place. That's it isn't it. Why say you don't want them at the helm when you clearly do."
The current board represent, if nothing else, stability. That stability is desireable over chaos. We need better leadership to move forwards. That means better leaders have to be found or have to step forward.
You can try and spin that to paint me the Kenwright apologist if you like... I dont think that you've got much of a case though.
Good questions and there is a risk element involved. i am very aware that I'm contradicting myself here.
On one hand I'm saying that risk must be avoided with the board but on the other I'm advocating risk on the pitch. I cant argue that point. All I can say is that I'm more confident that we can stay competetive losing a handful of star players than I am of avoiding a Gaydamak or Shinawatra with a power vacuum at the top.
I don't believe that the current board have the leadership qualities to sell off the top talent and ring-fence the money just for a stadium, so, my assumption is that it would be a new board doing it... one which the fan base may give benefit of the doubt to.
Obviously the whole thing is contingent on the offers coming in for the players. Jags for £18M would be a decent start though. Big money offers for Baines and/or Rodwell and Fellaini, for example, would probably do the rest of what's needed. I'm guessing we'd need about £80M raised that way in total. Add in £25M from a share option that would be commercially viable owing to the stadium. £15M or so from Goodison's disposal and the remainder £30M or so as a naming rights deal (£2M pa for 15 years etc) and you have the build cost of Eastlands.
Could we survive in the Prem without Baines, Jags, Fellaini and Rodwell? Fellaini we've survived without for a while; Jags is covered by Heitinga who's a better centre-half than anything else anyway; Rodwell is a talent but sacrificeable; Baines is the risk. So much of what we do goes through him... but I think we would still have enough quality in the squad to remain a Prem team.
Maybe not top-8 and maybe not even top-10 for a few seasons, but, with the the route out of the current perennial slamming into the revenue ceiling, I have to believe there is enough in the fans to see past short-term pain for the long-term good of the club.
I don't see any other option that results in potential higher revenue streams, that is within our control, as a club, to action. Goodison redevelopment, though safer, won't earn enough and the benefactor model is going down the tubes courtesy of Uefa ? even if we had one.
131 Posted 29/07/2011 at 14:40:18
The point I'm making is that when the issues involve BK, he is there, telling us how good it is (Kirkby) or how bad it is (Johnson) Is he a mate of BK's, or was he just trying to get into the limelight?
132 Posted 30/07/2011 at 15:13:14
I have been watching Everton since 1964 and for the first time I am trully embarrassed to be associated with them. When Brighton can buy a player for £2M and we can't afford £150k for a stand in goalkeeper from Preston. Get real, Everton fans ? we couldn't even get 3 numbers on the lottery cos we can't afford a ticket.
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