Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Jagielka ? Will we get it right?

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It seems Arsenal are not giving up just yet on their pursuit of Phil Jagielka. My own opinion is that he will sign for Arsenal towards the end of August, he may even appear this season first.

I thought that Everton really messed up the Lescott deal; and both Moyes and Kenwright made errors. Firstly, he started against Arsenal on the first day of the season, which gave the whole game an unsavoury subcontext. The season started under a cloud. This was pure "nose off, face spited" behaviour from Moyes.

Secondly, it became an rather unseemly affair with Moyes digging those famously stubborn heels in. Moyes should have done business briskly and got the player out and the money in before a ball was ever kicked. Instead, a war of words commenced and Lescott played when he should not have.

And going back earlier, Rooney was allowed to leave, but only at the end of August, and the club could not reinvest that money in a timely and appropriate fashion for the beginning of that season. Kenwright was insistent that that he got the best deal; but I always think the best deals are done cleanly and early. Everton drag the thing out until it affects the players, the stands and everything else.

We know the club is completely inept (or many of us think that, not all) at bringing in players; I also however, think we are not particularly smart at doing business the other way.

If Jagielka goes, can we trust Everton to do the business, or will he hang around until late August, creating yet another difficult season start?

Mark Tanton, Sheffield     Posted 28/07/2011 at 16:39:19

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Matt Traynor
1   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:10:50

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Mark, it's not that the club is inept at bringing players in, they've just forgotten how to.

People will argue both ways. With Rooney, the money was paid over two tranches of £10m in 2 seasons, the remaining £7m cap was based on club achievements and Rooney signing a new contract. I believe that cap of £7m was eventually reached.

Lescott was brinksmanship, and I can see it from both sides. I lost what little respect I had for Hughes after his press talk to unsettle the player, however nouveaux riche clubs like City will pay up front, not on the drip, and if an early deal could've been done, it should've been.

Wenger / Arsenal seem to be having similar problems with transfers to us, albeit from a much better starting position!
Steve Sweeney
2   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:16:40

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Wenger has been moaning all summer about Barcelona/Fabregas.
So Kenwright /Moyes everyone has their price, Tell Arsenal to Put up £17m plus addons within the next 48 hrs or do one.
Leak it to the press that we will sell for £17m and leave it.
If they don't bite then deal over.
Cannot anyone at Everton negotiate and play hardball?
We should have got £7m for Piennar last summer.
Andy Codling
3   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:15:38

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We will sell him on deadline day then spout some shite that we just missed out on Mouthino. Then the money will vanish along with the Piennar/Vaughan Loan Deals and bellefield money and the likes of Doddy will remain attached to Kenshites arsehole spouting even further shite.
Peter Laing
4   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:32:29

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Take the reported £18m on offer from Arsenal NOW, and buy Scott Dann as a replacement with a late bid for N'Zogbia. But you know it aint going to happen.
Alan McGuffog
5   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:31:52

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Fear not. I gather that the Gooners offered in the region of £12 million quite recently. I'm sure we'll beat them down to £9 !
Al Reddish
6   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:48:29

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Although I dont want him to go, it may be best to sell him for around £20m, we already have a replacement in Johnny for now and we also have Yobo back.
I will be sad to see him go, but we really need to do something to get a winger and a front man.
Brian Waring
7   Posted 28/07/2011 at 17:55:58

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BK should come out and just tell Arsenal we want X amount, and when your willing to pay that amount, come back to us then.
I
ts not as if Jags is making waves to go to them.
Alan Sherrard
8   Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:00:33

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i think the club need to come out and tell the fans their intentions. With Lescott, they initially said he was not for sale... then their hand was forced with him handing in a transfer request. I can't see any benefit in Jags going to Arsenal, he would have to up sticks and move.

Also who do you replace him with? Yobo is not up to the job and Mad Jonnie isn't either. The only option might be Rodwell but the speculation over him going to Man Utd has turned him into a bumbling wreck.

Alright N'Zogbia would be a great buy but at what cost? I wouldn't want him over Jags.
Andy Crooks
9   Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:04:06

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If Wenger should offer £15-£18 million then Moyes should get Jags in the car and drive him there before the madness of such a fee occurs to anyone.
Steve Edwards
10   Posted 28/07/2011 at 18:49:23

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Interesting that Jags may end up at Arsenal. I think that it would be a very bad move for him. He's a very good defender if you are defending deep, which is what Everton do most of the time. Unfortunatly Arsenal tend to defend further up the field. Whenever Everton have done this Jags tends to get caught out, he's very much a backs to the wall defender, last ditch tackles and all that. Also his passing game leaves a lot to be desired, putting it mildly. Isn't that what Arsenal are all about. I'd give it a lot of thought if I were him, he could be a fish out of water. Anyway for all we know he may not want to go there.

From a personal point of view, I'd be happy to take 18M for him. Scott Dann for 6-8M and enough for another couple of players who could improve the team.
Chris Halliday
11   Posted 28/07/2011 at 19:33:22

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agree with that Steve..I like Jags but we do play deep with plenty of cover at times..which is the opposite of Arsenal. However, 17-18m has to be a good deal for both sides and we should allow Hetinga to play in his naturalosition and strengthen the forward line. Makes sense to get the deal done now.
Chris James
12   Posted 28/07/2011 at 19:40:02

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Anything £15M or over and we've simply got to take it. We need attacking investment and we do have other competent defenders even if we couldn't get someone cheaper in.

What we don't have are pacy wingers or cash.
Take the money, have a last minute crack at N'Zogbia and if it fails try one of the other names linked (even a loan for Adam Johnson would be a good move for me).
Iain Love
13   Posted 28/07/2011 at 19:55:07

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Mark it would be nice to play hardball but when it's widely known you haven't got a pot to piss in it's not an easy game to play.
Would you rather have accepted £15mill for Lescott at the start of the transfer window, or as Moyes did hold out for £24mill and put transfers in place ie Distin, Heitiga, Bily.
I would be happy to sell Jags for £18mill as long as we brought in players with that money. I do think we play better football with Heitinga at the back, although Jags is a better defender, it's a bit like Hibbert is a better defender than Baines but Baines is FAR more important to us than Hibbert.
Always look at the bigger picture.
Phil Martin
14   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:13:11

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Precisely Iain.

I'd take a hammering off anyone in one game for the extra £8M. My worry is that £16M for Jags will result in only £10M for Moyes. With the rest disappearing into that black hole hovering over GP.

Mark, regarding Rooney. United only put an official offer in the day before transfer deadline. Putting us in a crap position to negotiate -plus BK needed the money to pay off loans.
So our hand was forced.

Mark Tanton
15   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:25:51

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I think we're all a little too optimistic if we think Jagielka will bring in £18m.

I imagine £14m will be enough to set things going.

Going back to my original concern, I simply lack faith that the club can do business in a timely or appropropriate fashion.

Point about Man Utd bid accepted, but I still think that has a lot to with our reputation as bumblers. They knew they could get away with it.
Mike Allison
16   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:28:33

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We can't sell players unless we have bids. Man City didn't bid for Lescott (or not for the amount we were prepared to sell for) they just tapped him up through the press.

We can't choose when we sell if the other team don't offer the right money at the right time. Are you saying you'd sell a player for around 60-70% of what you want just to get rid early?

The only thing we got wrong with Lescott was how we spent the money.
Rob Murphy
17   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:30:28

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Grab the money, thanks for the peno at Wembley Phil, move on. Simples.
Mark Tanton
18   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:32:11

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I'm saying Mike, that Moyes played Lescott against Arsenal to prove a point and got our season off to a terrible start. It was a childish and stubborn mistake, and it didn't really prove anything to anyone, apart from Moyes was willing:

A, to risk injury to an expensive player on the verge of leaving a skint club

B, risk a positive start to the season just to keep up appearances of being in control of events.

We arsed it up.
Brendan O'Doherty
19   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:41:22

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Getting, sorry, swindling £22m from Mercenary City was hardly messing it up.

But I would say only getting £2Om + add-ons for Rooney on the last day of the window was.

Regarding Jagielka, we shouldn't do anything until they offer ridiculous money, i.e.£20m.

Mark Tanton
20   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:50:34

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Brendan my comments were not about the money. Do you think the way we conducted ourselves was very impressive? What about playing Lescott?

Not in a million seasons will Arsenal pay more than £14-15m. If we try and exploit them, they'll go elsewhere and buy Samba and/or Cahill. Let's not insult them, it's not Man City and it's not silly money anymore.
Michael Kelly
21   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:48:48

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No matter if we got a decent price for Jagielka, Moyes would only get a fraction of the fee any way. This is a major problem as he seems to put up with it. It's about time Moyes grew some balls and publically demanded the whole fee or threatened to leave, as this fucking annual circus is getting tedious.
Brendan O'Doherty
22   Posted 28/07/2011 at 20:54:50

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Mark, City had only offered £15m at the start of that season and had been told where to put it. Admittedly they had succeeded in unsettling Lescott through the media by making it known that they would be doubling his wages.

With the benefit of hindsight it would have been better not to play him in that game against Arsenal, but IMO it was his unprofessional attitude to the whole issue that contributed to that defeat. What DM tried to do was not give in to the scandalous way he was tapped up by Hughes. Perhaps it was a bit naive to expect it to go away, but you can't blame him for his stance, especially as it contributed towards getting the huge fee for him.

Jagielka's head does not appear to have been turned, and if it has looks like he is going to be more professional about it than Lescott was. As Mike Allison says above, the club can't and shouldn't do anything until a bid is received which matches the value that they put on him. Don't forget he will have to be replaced as well, as Yobo will be gone before the end of the window.

Other clubs know the financial mess we are in, but we don't need to hold up the begging bowl.

Col Wills
23   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:25:56

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Message to Moyes:? If you have to sell somebody to be able to buy, well get on with it, let's get some money in and improve the depth of the squad asap.

For me, I'd offer Rodders or/and Jags to the highest buyer (nb: Man City look to have spent up now with Aguero) and I'd be looking at maybe recruiting a Ryan Shawcross to replace Jags, and why not try for a wildcard in Taarabt from QPR? He'd offer something different, is very skillful and may be persuaded to put a shift in by Moyesy.

Add to that Shane Long and Aiden McGeady, Adam Johnson or Shaun Wright-Phillips on the wing and we're starting to get cooking.

I might add that each of these players also has a decent injury-free record, essential to a club like Everton, and they provide experience. What a lift a bit of wheeler dealing like this would provide at the moment...

Kevin Gillen
24   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:25:52

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I like Jags and hope he stays.
John Audsley
25   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:20:14

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If we got offered £18M, I'd take the money and run. I love Jags, think he is a great CB... but, unless someone is flogged, we won't buy anyone.

We need a wide player and a striker more than we need a CB. We have Distin, Johnny, Yobo, Rodwell and Duffy. It's a piss-poor situation but no-one seems to be bidding on Rodwell or Fellaini so we've no choice.

I also think getting Hitlzberger on free would be shrewd piece of business.
Lewis Barclay
26   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:22:31

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If Jags goes for upwards of £15M and we reinvest it all, it'll be a shame, but for the best. I think he's done an honourable job as an Everton Player and the club has looked after him in return.

I just hope Heitinga can step up and get some sort of pairing going with Distin ? or are we looking at Rodwell or even Yobo as a replacement?

On another note, is Scott Parker not interested in coming to us on loan for a season? I'd like to see that happen, what with Felli not being 100% and news of Arteta brusing bones (WTF!) in the US.
Trevor Mackie
27   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:24:30

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Under this regime we are a stagnant, perhaps, a downward spiral, selling club unable to raise money for transfer fees and uncompetitive.

I would imagine Jags is jumping for joy and checking estate agents in Herts as we speak.
James Flynn
28   Posted 28/07/2011 at 19:50:38

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FUCK Arsenal and everyone else.

We're at the end of our rope with this squad. Keep everyone. We're in desperate straights. Does anyone here think the players don't know what we know?

All we want lads is get out the gate fast.
Iain Love
29   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:47:00

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A lot of posts about Lescott playing when we got stuffed by Arsenal, Lescott didn't play badly, he wasn't the worst player on the pitch, it wasn't his fault we got twatted. I remmeber the game and i watched Lescott to see how he played, not his best game , not his worst but to say it was his transfer that caused that defeat is just looking for a reason to say we wheren't shit on the day and Arsenal didn't play well.
I also recollect that the majority of posters around that time accepted that Lescotts loyalty was to himself and his family, fuck if i got offered double for the same job i'd go. He was / is a Wolves fan.
Jamie Barlow
30   Posted 28/07/2011 at 21:58:42

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Same here Kevin@23.

If Jags put in a transfer request last month, you'd all be calling him a mercenary twat and all sorts. Now you want shut of him. Ridiculous.
Mike Green
31   Posted 28/07/2011 at 22:16:34

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Well said Jamie
Chris Jones
32   Posted 28/07/2011 at 23:01:28

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O.K. FM time I admit. 18 mil. for Jags, spend it all (yes Bill - ALL!) on N'Zog and Long. If Yobo stays we've cover at the back. If he goes, buy and develop Dann. This management stuff's easy, eh?
Ray Robinson
33   Posted 28/07/2011 at 23:22:37

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Steve @10, very perceptive. I know that you understand football with those comments. Jags is made for Everton - not sure about Arsenal despite his undoubted defensive abilities
David Crowe
34   Posted 28/07/2011 at 23:49:15

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We've got to replace him first. If Scott Dann is the man then fine but I'd accept nothing less than £18m. I believe Jags is more important in Moyes' plans than just being a defender. A future captain and england international should demand a big sum.

If it does get Dann and N'Zogbia BOTH then I say go for it. However, who says we're getting either of those two anyway? Selling Rodwell, Bily, Yak and Yobo should be where we're looking in terms of raising funds, not important, quality players like Jags.
Brendan O'Doherty
35   Posted 29/07/2011 at 01:25:44

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Seems Dann is an unrepentant kopite and wants to go there. Next?


Jason Heng
36   Posted 29/07/2011 at 01:25:15

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Fans decry players' lack of loyalty.

Now that an attractive bid may be on the offer, just note the number (and the names) of those willing to flock Jags off to the Emirates.
John Connor
37   Posted 29/07/2011 at 01:25:25

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Personally I wouldn't even think about selling jagielka not even for 18 mil the best thing for us to do is to lower our asking price of rodwell and cash in on him now rather then sell our best centre half to a team we will take 6 points off next season. Knowing everton we would never replace jagielka and just be happy with heitinga filling in which can't be an option I'd rather start the season with what we've got than think about getting rid of one of our best players.
Brendan O'Doherty
38   Posted 29/07/2011 at 01:37:40

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New bid submitted according to the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/8669393/Arsenal-closing-in-on-Phil-Jagielka-after-submitting-new-bid-for-Everton-defender.html

Jason Lam
39   Posted 29/07/2011 at 02:49:55

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Jags is not suited to Arsenal's play; if we get £18m for him, I say snap their hands off. Wenger's getting pretty desperate I'll say.

Get a £5m replacement from the Championship and the rest on Donovan, who 'gets it' like Jags. We'll need someone to replace the brotherly love in the dressing room.
Ryan Rosenberg
40   Posted 29/07/2011 at 07:29:10

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I am a fan of Jags, but if we got 18mil then we should definitely take it. Heitinga is more than capable of replacing him, and I would spend the cash (if we can) on Dann & N'Zogbia.
David Chait
41   Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:02:35

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If we spend any money on a central defender with the Jags allowance I feel we shouldn't sell him in the first place. Don't really understand the Dann love affair...

Get the best winger or striker you can with the cash and use what we have to fill in. Without attrition like thise the likes of Duffy would struggle to get a chance - not that I'm saying he is my first choice. Steven Defour anyone?
Gavin Ramejkis
42   Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:17:44

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Why do people rave about Dann, he's average at best and shocking when playing badly.

We need pace on the wing and we need striker cover - apart from our other SPoFs (Single Points of Failure)
Steve Smith
43   Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:33:08

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I think it's worth pointing out that Jags was aware of Arsenals interest last season and was told by Moyes that they had bid for him, he still signed a new contract with us a few months later.
David Chait
44   Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:54:36

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Steve absolutely.. whether he leaves us or not.. Jags is a gentleman and loyal. Cant see him spitting out his dummy ala Lescott. All the time in the world for the lad.

Gavin - point exactly.
Al Reddish
45   Posted 29/07/2011 at 08:59:13

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Although I want to keep him, if he does go then he goes with my good wishes. He never gives anything less than 100% and you cant blame him if he wanted to try his hand at the Champions League as he wont get much of a chance with us.
Dan McKie
46   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:01:21

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David #39, You say get the best winger or striker that we can, then suggest a central midfielder in Steven Defour??

Scott Dann is a really good player, not yet at Jags level, and the £12 mil brum want is ridiculous considering he was out injured all of last season! Another player worth looking at is James Tomkins from West Ham. We wouldnt need them to slot straight in because we have Heitinga, Yobo etc. I have said before though, with the financial state we are in and the fact we need to sell to buy, we have to look at the likes of Jags, Arteta going, late 20's still worth considerable cash, and not the Rodwells and Felliani's who we need to be building a team around for the future.
James Stewart
47   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:00:05

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Dann is Shit and played for a team that went town I hardly think it would be wise to splash 12m on him! Johnson was 7m and he is no better than him. Personally I would just keep Yobo & invest the money elsewhere like the wing!!!!

My worry is we will sell close to the deadline and only manage at best to get a loan in with the promise of a transfer come January. Then come Jan.... O well you know the rest!!!!
Liam Reilly
48   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:06:11

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The backbone of the team is built on its axis between its cental defence and its keeper.

Wegner is not an idiot and sees the value in Jags, can't believe some of the quotes on this thread.
Ed Fitzgerald
49   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:27:38

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Sorry, Liam, but I disagree. I don't think Jagielka is a GREAT centre back at all.

He is good at man-to-man marking but much of his games leave much to be desired, his distribution being the worst facet of his game. He is great at throwing in last-ditch tackles, I grant you... but I don't think his positional play is up to that much either.

It is a position where we do have some cover and some potential coming through and I am afraid, if Arsenal bid £15M, it would be an act of madness for Everton to turn it down, even if Moyes only gets £10M to spend of it.

Football is about opinions, Liam, so those of us who don't rate Jagielka are entitled to ours too ? especially if you are forking out for our season tickets year after year.

Chris James
50   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:32:34

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Liam #46 , I think pretty much everyone is agreed that in an an ideal world we wouldn't even consider letting Jags go. However in that world we also have additional funds to spend on strengthening our squads - in this reality we sadly don't.

We need to sell to buy and whilst we'd obviously prefer to sell Yak, Yobo, Bily, Johnny or even Rodwell, there clearly hasn't been interest in those players at a sufficient level to make it worthwhile (and/or our board have been unable to finalise the deals), the players in demand are Baines (too valuable to our attacking play) and Jags (first-teamer but more replaceable). Against that logic and assuming these figures of £12-18M are real then I don't really see that there's much choice.

Also if we're going to do it, we need to do it now whilst we still have a couple of weeks before the season starts to get players used to life without Jags and new players in, not at the end of August when disruption will be intensified.

(As an aside, talking about the Lescott situation, I have to say that aside from the Arsenal match that really didn't work out too badly did it? Big wodge of dosh for new players and an even better left-back emerges).

Stephen Lewis
51   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:35:55

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I'm afraid it's inevitable we're going to lose Jags. I'd love him to stay but £15 to £18m for a near 29 year old is a good price. I believe he may have lost half a yard of pace since his injury.

I think he'd be happy to stay, he's a future captain but he can't ignore £100k per week wages at his age.

Let's have an amicable spilt and use the money to strengthen some of the obvious deficiencies in our squad.
Anthony Hawkins
52   Posted 29/07/2011 at 09:52:17

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Sometimes players have to be sold whether we like it or not and I've resigned myself to the fact someone or some players will go this close season. And that they will be amongst our better players. What I do trust Moyes to do is rebuild the team spirit and get the players fighting for each other again. That is one thing he has shown he is capable of doing.

The sale of Jagielka could take a while as no one is going to sell on the first bid, not when we all know higher bids will be tabled. The question is all about timing, getting the best deal that allows us as a club to get other players in as either direct replacements or strengthen other areas.

Given the opportunity I think Heitinga will shock the neysayers on this board and will be amongst the best players we have whilst playing at centreback.

Personally, if Jags is happy to stay, I say keep hold of him. He reminds me a lot of John Terry when he was younger.
Mark Tanton
53   Posted 29/07/2011 at 10:19:10

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I think we've really missed a trick with Chris Eagles; he is a very smart and hard working player and one who would fit in perfectly at Everton in my opinion. And he's only 25, which surprised me.
Antony Matthews
54   Posted 29/07/2011 at 10:31:14

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What about the lad Samba at Blackburn? Strong as an ox and wont cost a lot. We will have cash left over for other signings. Thats my opinion anyway for what its worth
Damian Halligan
55   Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:08:27

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Was it my imagination or did anyone at the recent Bury game notice how Jags made a point of coming over and shaking hands with fans at the end of the game. Didnt notice anyone else doing likewise. Seemed liked saying goodbye to me.
Dick Fearon
56   Posted 29/07/2011 at 10:39:52

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Arsenal wants Samba who has already made clear his wish for champions league football. Blackburn are more desperate for cash than us and want top dollar for him. Jags is part of Arsenals ploy aimed at getting the pheasant pluckers to accept a lower price.
I reckon Samba will end up at the Emirates and if Jags goes anywhere it will be to the RS or Chelski for over 20 mil..
Liam Reilly
57   Posted 29/07/2011 at 10:56:38

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Ed #47
Sorry, I didn?t mean to sound obtuse, you are of course entitled to their opinion.

To me, player like Jags, Cahill and Baines are the reason I still support this club; players who wear the shirt with the pride it deserves and IMO we are lucky to have them and as regards Jags and possibly Baines, it looks like Arsne agrees.
Sam Hoare
58   Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:23:28

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Hmmmmmm.

Tricky one this as we would be losing one of our best players and for once he is in no way agitating for the move.

The good news is that Heitinga is pretty strong direct replacement and with Yobo back i'd say we have some decent depth at CB. However Jags when fit and firing is probably in our top 3 players.

For me it all depends on who else is lined up. Assuming Jags went for £16m if Moyes then managed to bring in Nzogbia and maybe Adam Johnson and Sturridge on loan then i would say go right ahead. If Jags left and we end up splashing £10m on Shane Long then i will not be best pleased....
Chris Rudd
59   Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:27:34

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Liam - Allelujah to that brother. Jags along with the other players you mention are Everton through and through and I'd hate to see any of them go. If nothing else the spirit would be diluted.

In any case if Phil Jones, not yet a full international is worth close to £19mill, Jags shouldn't be allowed to go for less.

But I'd rather he stayed. I simply don't trust Heitinga to put his body on the line like Jags does and I know someone will say Johnny's anticipation and reading of the game means he doesn't have to, but at centre half you'll always need to tackle and head the ball - two things at which JH is patently weak.

I still say, Rodwell should be the one to be sacrificed if anyone.
Antony Matthews
60   Posted 29/07/2011 at 11:42:31

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omg ive just had a terrible thought. Moyes gets rid of Jags and replaces him with no other than.......................................................................................................................................Tony Hibbit. Oh its ok ive just woken from my terrible dream !
Mark Tanton
61   Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:21:31

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You can't compare the Phil Jones transfer fee with Jagielka's value.

Phil Jones' fee is all on his potential; he is only very young and Man Utd are making a long term investment. They may get ten years' service from him.

Jagielka is getting closer to 30, and is the finished article to an extent. There will be no increase in value from here, and only 3 or 4 years at his best from here.

Hence Jones is worth more than Jagielka.
Ryan Holroyd
62   Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:17:36

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I truely hope Jagielka doesn't go. Selling your best centre half in August is stupid. Any football person would tell you that the defence is the most important part of a team and selling Jags would be a big loss.

By the time the bank takes their cut any fee of say £15 million would mean £10 million for Moyes to spend.

£10 million doesn't get get you much these days. Look at Henderson and Carroll for example.

I agree Jags distruibution is poor but his primary job is to defend. And he does that well.

Personally I don't think Heitinga (an absolute fanny ,not a hard man at all) or Yobo (error prone) are at the same level of Jagielka.

Rodwell looked poor at centre half a few years ago in a pre season at Coventry, Duffy and Mustafi wont 'make' it at Everton.

Still, I can't see Moyes selling for less than £18 million and Wenger wont pay that much.
Chris Rudd
63   Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:26:28

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Mark - fair point, well made about Jones although he may not be ready for regular first team duty for a couple of years.

I still wouldn't sell Jags for less though.
Mark Tanton
64   Posted 29/07/2011 at 12:37:02

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What it must be like to lay out that much investment for a player who may not even start a game next season.

Then again, if Ferdinand stubbs his toe, or does his back in through picking up his wallet again then Jones may be called up.
Denis Richardson
65   Posted 29/07/2011 at 13:20:10

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As much as he's been good for us, there is no way Jags is worth 15m. If Arseneal get anywhere near that amount it shows that football has truely gone mad - and we should bite their hands off!

TAKE THE MONEY!!

Distin is good for another season at least and we can get another defender in as cover, Brum are up the creek at the moment cash wise etc.

I see DJ Campbell is off to QPR, shamre, think he would have been a great addition, bags of pace and knowe where the goal is - and cheap!

Come on Everton, do the deal now and dont wait until the end of August to sign players just so you can save one months worth of wages!
Ryan Holroyd
66   Posted 29/07/2011 at 14:36:12

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Sell Jagielka and get in DJ Campbell.

Can't agree with that Denis.
Ray Roche
67   Posted 29/07/2011 at 15:25:36

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Personally I'd prefer Jags to stay. He APPEARS to love Everton and I haven't heard any rumours that he wants to go so I'd keep him if possible.

The worry is is that if he IS sold then Kenwright will not give Moyes all, or any, of the money or he'll be sold too late to invest any money in this window and January will see the money has disappeared down the back of Kenwrights sofa. Again.

Some good shouts on here though. But Dann? For how much??? Fuck me gently....

Simon Rimmer
68   Posted 29/07/2011 at 15:49:29

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What a fucking joke this club are turning into. We were supposedly wanting to take Eagles from Burnley last season, the player wanted to come, and we couldn't find the cash; now he's signed for Bolton.

We have a player in N'Zogbia ? not everyone's cup of tea... but without a doubt he's been hankering for a move to us... yet it looks like he'll be going Villa because we haven't got a pot to piss in.

It's not just us fans who want signings either. Sylvain is meant to have been quoted in the Echo as saying we need two more players because everyone else is buying around us.

The board need to put up or fuck off before we end up in deep shit with all our best players wanting away and we end up in Championship.

Sam Hoare
69   Posted 29/07/2011 at 15:50:34

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I know there will be lots of criticism to this but I was thinking on the way to work of who could step in to Jagielka's shoes if he were to leave and I have to say I think that I might prefer Joey Yobo to Johnny Heitinga.

I know he has made some high-profile errors in the past but a record clean sheet run in Turkey might suggest that he has improved his concentration in his old age... I say old age but he is 30. Peak time for a CB in my opinion.

Yobo was apparently still the quickest member of the first team in training this summer (according to someone's Twitter) and at 6'-2" is more dominant in the air than most. His distribution is not great but then Jags is no Baresi.

I can't imagine any CF would relish playing against Yobo and Distin, two large, strong players and comfortably the quickest CB pairing in the Premier League by my reckoning. If they could keep their concentration (and that is admittedly a big 'IF') they could be quite formidable.

So how about we sell Jags, buy N'Zogbia and go with the 4-2-3-1 formation that was so popular at the last World Cup with the following team:

Howard
Neville Yobo Distin Baines
Rodwell Fellaini
N'Zogbia Osman Arteta
Beckford

Subs:Mucha, Coleman, Heitinga, Barkley, Bilyaletdinov, Cahill, Saha.

I reckon that team could do pretty damn well. Anyone with me? I'm pretty sure Moyes isn't.

Chris Butler
70   Posted 29/07/2011 at 16:09:23

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I have no faith in Moyes anymore or anybody at the club so chances are we'll fuck it up. We'll probably sell him for £18 million then have no time to spend it. We'll probably spend it on 3 shite players or maybe just 2 shite players... I don't know which one to pick.

Then Moyes after a poor run will blame the catastrophic loss of Jagielka. Then in November we'll have loads of articles on here saying that Moyes hasn't had any money to spend and thats' why we're playing poorly. Our season will effectively end half-way through December.

If you had to bet on any team's fortunes it would be Everton's, the amount of money I've made through the years betting on Everton matches is astonishing.

Ed Fitzgerald
71   Posted 29/07/2011 at 16:42:35

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Liam

I am sorry to pick on you again but are players like Cahill and Jags really the reason you support Everton?

They without doubt are grafters if a bit limited in ability and erm they get paid very well for for working hard. They both seem like decent enough blokes (although I don't know them)

I suspect (I could be wrong! and don't intend to patronise you) but we probably started watching Everton at different times so, if I am rubbishing your heroes, I apologise. Kevin Sheedy sometimes looked like the laziest player to grace a football pitch but was a wonderful footballer. Too many Evertonians of certain age confuse workrate and passion with ability and effectiveness. Any new player at Goodison who from their debut does not careen around the pitch at 100 miles an hour is considered to be lacking in passion for the club; it's misguided and says a lot re how limited our view of what makes a good player has become.

It is a good question though, Liam: Why do people support Everton? Because of the passion of certain players?? Or other more complex reasons???
James Newcombe
72   Posted 29/07/2011 at 16:59:08

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DJ Campbell??? I'd rather have Kevin back at 41
Martin Handley
73   Posted 29/07/2011 at 17:20:51

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So good ol' Arsene is chasing a second-hand Jag (geddit?) and thinks that he can get a classy one from Goodison Park on the cheap. Yes, our Jag's got a few miles on the clock but he'd looked good in his driveway and he's a beautiful runner with plenty of mileage left in him.

Now cast your mind back to the beginning of June when Barcelona started their pursuit of Fabregas and City started their pursuit of Nasri through the press, the Wenger boy (sorry, I'll stop the crap jokes now!) was all over the media, bleating about how unfair life was and how those naughty clubs were poaching his players by using the press to unsettle his boys... Sound familiar now, does it Arsene, you cheeky French rascal!?

But hang on a minute chaps ? didn't those two aforementioned players both publicly state they wanted out? And correct me if I'm wrong, our Jags has only just scribbled his autograph on a new 5-year deal?

Still, that has stopped the old rogue from threatening to sue every man and his dog for undervaluing his boys with insultingly low offers! £10 million for Jags! Honestly mate, which boot would you like? People in glass houses...

Michael Kenrick
74   Posted 29/07/2011 at 17:21:36

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Nice try, Martin... but I see a couple of flaws in your attempt to pour scorn on Arsene Wnger, in addtion to the glaring one you point out yourself ? that his players wanted out.

Firstly, I don't think he's doing it "through the press", as you state. Everton received and rejected a bid. If anything, Everton are now doing their bit "through the press" with that questionable piece by Greg O'Keefe ? could it be seen as begging for a much improved offer?

And has Arsene really threatened to sue clubs undervaluing his players??? Sorry but I think you're making stuff up again...
Martin Handley
75   Posted 29/07/2011 at 17:28:29

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Michael, this is the guy whose players can do no wrong or to quote the man himself "I don't recall that incident, I always respect the referee, I never do business in the press."

Also, he did threaten to report to Uefa, they would look into legal action unless the clubs went through the proper chanels etc.

As for Everton "playing the game" well about frigging time, we've bent over and taken it for far too long.

Sorry but I'm not making stuff up all my other posts are just my opinion; sorry if they're the opposite to yours but that's life.

Will I miss Jags? Yes;luckily we've got a ready made replacement: step forward Mr Heitinga!

Paul Gladwell
76   Posted 29/07/2011 at 18:22:04

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The whole club needs a spark lighting and though I am a fan of his if his going brings two players in and one is a forward or atttacking player like N,Zogbia then this would change a lot regarding all the depression around the club at the moment.
Paul Loins
77   Posted 29/07/2011 at 18:27:38

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Totally Agree with you Martin (70) concerning Mr Wenger and his pursuit of Jags. Like Man City and Lescott, I am seeing on Sky Sports and newspapers that Arsenal are interested in Jags, that they have bid and now are about to increase that bid.

If like Michael states it's all Everton's doing then how do they know about another bid??? Have Arsenal told Everton they are going to bid higher and for them to leak it to the media. Some strange logic on here??? I'm confused...

Liam Reilly
78   Posted 29/07/2011 at 18:15:28

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Ed,
I began supporting Everton in the 70's and have seen countelss side built and rebuilt over the years and I would admit that each era has had it's own attractions, Bob Latchford, Andy King, Mick Lyons, The Rat, Steven, Reidy, Bracewell and Sheedy,... fucking brilliant and I enjoyed the good and the bad times...

Unfortunately those were era's when we could compete, and the trophies weren't distributed each year to the same 4 sides.

Now I live in Ireland, I never miss a game on Sky and travel to Goodison, 3 or 4 times a season. I know the side isn't likely to be winning the league any time soon because cash has changed the game beyond compare, but the players who have worn the shirt with pride over the years, the ones that would bleed blue for the club, well that's why I support this club.
Steve Smith
79   Posted 29/07/2011 at 18:50:21

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Ed 68 and Liam 74. I'd be interested to hear who your Everton heroes are Ed or what your view is of an Everton great.

As a supporter and regular at Goodison from 1971 onwards, I think we have always appreciated hard working players in spite of their lack of jaw dropping skill. The players mentioned by Liam above, Latchford, Lyons and even Reidy were not the most skillful players ever to wear the jersey but heroes all the same, it's great to have classy players in the side {my personal hero is still Duncan McKenzie} but those players always have to be balanced out with workhorses, unless we're talking about Gordon Lee picking the team!! Imagine having him here today... No 2: T Hibbert... No 3: someone like T Hibbert... No 4: Someone Like T Hibbert... etc etc.

Ian McPherson
80   Posted 29/07/2011 at 20:26:39

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Why don't we dye Hibberts hair and pass him off to the Arse for Jags?

Cash the cheque before they cop it. On another note, Arsenal are a passing side, not Jags strength.....
James Stewart
81   Posted 29/07/2011 at 21:23:12

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Agree with Michael it would surprise me if Arsenal went anymore than £15M. I think the recent stories of a second bid are down to Billy Bullshit and Co. We haven't had a big sale this summer so his blueprint is coming apart at the seams. Cue talk of an acceptable offer of £18M. That is from Everton not Arsenal!
Chris Butler
82   Posted 29/07/2011 at 21:40:15

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Why don't we get rid of fucking Rodwell and Jags this would create 35 million quid to spend. Get Scott Dann and then work out who else to get. DM if he was a good manager would realise this is good business. I'm sick of Moyes and his pathetic attempts at trying to keep players. Look at the likes of Pienaar and Lescott. Get rid of Rodders and Jags and buy some quality players in their place.
Martin Handley
83   Posted 29/07/2011 at 22:16:00

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I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal didn't come back at all.

They're not one of lifes big spenders and will always try and get a player on the cheap, plus Jags is English and Wenger very rarely buys English prefering cheap unknown imports he can mould, whereas Jags is practically the finished article, seasoned pro and international to boot.

They've tried unsettling him through the press, then with a ridiculously low bid and from what I can see it hasn't worked, so maybe leak a possible second bid to the press and see what happens again by the look of it Jags being the pro he is just smiles shrugs and gets on with it, so no matter what the outcome Jags my old mucker you have my admiration for that alone ? unlike that prick Lescott.

Michael Kenrick
84   Posted 30/07/2011 at 00:29:09

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Martin,

I actually agree with you! How's about that?

I was gonna post something similar about them being done. Hopefully not just wishful thinking...

Steve Smith
85   Posted 30/07/2011 at 02:32:26

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James Stewart 79.
"Cue talk of an acceptable offer of £18m. That is from Everton not Aresnal!"

Don't remember seeing that on the OS mate or Moyes or Kenwright or Elstone saying that, the more accurate statement would be... "That is from the papers {depending on which one you read} and most of the time they spout shite."
Ed Fitzgerald
86   Posted 30/07/2011 at 06:31:10

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Liam

That is a very fair point you make about competition although if we accept that we will never be able to compete at the top level again that is both depressing and something I somehow can't accept.

Steve it is one thing to say we appreciate hard working players but to claim to support the club because of them is a different matter entirely in my book. As for defining what would constitute an Everton great I would say there has to be some criteria people should have to fill

1. To have sublime talent and be able to produce it when it matters
2. To be recognised beyond Goodison as outstanding in their position.
3. To have won something or made a huge contribution like scoring pots full of goals like Latchford did

Players to fit the great category since I started watching Everton would include such players as Alan Ball, Neville Southall, Brian Labone, Howard Kendall, Trevor Steven etc

Players like Duncan McKenzie, Ferguson (Duncan not Mike) are obviously icons well for many people.

I have not mentioned people like Alex Young because I although I saw them I cant really remember them too well. But when you have a documentary made about you called the Golden Vision I think your status is pretty much confirmed.

Here is the contentious bit without doubt the most talented player I have ever seen wear Blue shirt sadly now wears the Red of United. Whatever we think of him it was a tragedy that we had to let him go and in a different era we would not have sold him and could have gone to the be the greatest Everton player of them all. Discuss!
Andy Crooks
87   Posted 30/07/2011 at 07:24:47

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Our club could be turned round by one astute loan signing. I know it's unlikely but say, Adam Johnson. Pace, something different. As Paul Gladwell says something to lift the gloom.
What is so sad about our plight is that we are not far away from having a squad capable of consistently challenging the best,
Matt Garen
88   Posted 30/07/2011 at 07:33:59

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Chris 82. So what you are saying is that moyes would be a better manager if he sold rodwell and jag, bought Dann then looked around for a midfielder because he had no idea who to buy? You also mention his pathetic attempt to keep pienaar and lescott yet fail to see both players were clearly going to leave to double their wages no matter what moyes or the club offered them. On what basis does this make him a shit manager? Or is it the fact that will literally nothing to spend for 2.5 years he hasn't won the league yet and can only manage top 8 finishes? There will be a whirlwind of shit at this club the minute that bloke says enough is enough and fucks off.
Matt Garen
89   Posted 30/07/2011 at 07:33:59

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Chris 82. So what you are saying is that moyes would be a better manager if he sold rodwell and jag, bought Dann then looked around for a midfielder because he had no idea who to buy? You also mention his pathetic attempt to keep pienaar and lescott yet fail to see both players were clearly going to leave to double their wages no matter what moyes or the club offered them. On what basis does this make him a shit manager? Or is it the fact that will literally nothing to spend for 2.5 years he hasn't won the league yet and can only manage top 8 finishes? There will be a whirlwind of shit at this club the minute that bloke says enough is enough and fucks off.
Ray Roche
90   Posted 30/07/2011 at 07:53:12

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Ed,
Maybe if Alex Young had had the same TV exposure that Rooney etc. have had then you might be in a position to see Young as the genius he was. These days there is so much saturation coverage of football from every angle that we can appreciate- or not- the ability of the likes of Rooney etc. so it's a shame that yourself and younger Blues can't drool over our heroes from the past to the same extent.
The same can be said for the likes of Best, the main footage we see of him is where he lobs the Spurs goalie.
Yet we can almost see Rooney going for a dump. Or shagging a granny.
Rhodri Cannon
91   Posted 30/07/2011 at 10:19:08

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Jags won't go, I've got his name on my shirt from the 09/10 and always wear it when I'm picked as a lionheart centre back.
Karl Meighan
92   Posted 30/07/2011 at 10:43:06

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Jageilka and Baines are the only two i wouldn't sell the rest are replaceable. If we do sell or have intentions of selling name a high price and be done with it.

As for people claiming we were in a bad position for selling Rooney why wasn't a 30m price tag put on his head earlier without bullshit addons, we might then of had time to sign a replacement for the little rat.

Ed@86 Rooney probably would of been a Everton great but i dont buy the line "he had to move" No kid born in Croxteth or anywhere in Liverpool should ever want to play for any club other than Everton or the RS. Its a dream to play for the club you support not to win things which is a nice bonus or to have pots of money. In any case he could have given another 3 years at his age if Moyes failed to build a good side around him then play elsewhere. What he gave us was no loyalty, no time to sign a replacement and never a good word about the club until recently.
Ernie Baywood
93   Posted 30/07/2011 at 12:08:29

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Lescott didn't say a thing during his own transfer saga did he? Until the last stage when he eventually requested a transfer.

So why Jagielka is any better than him I don't know. I never blamed Lescott, he never put us in this mess - in fact he did more to get us out of it than most at the club. Massive profit and a great couple of years out of him.

Lets face it - we were always going to sell Lescott. We just wanted to look like we were prepared to play hard with Citeh. We'll do the same with Jags but what choice do we really have if Arsenal genuinely want to pay mega money? The only question here is how much do Arsenal want him - they've been quite happy to walk away from deals in the past.

And of course, no blame to Jags if he goes. Great opportunity for a bloke who has given his all while in blue.
Al Reddish
94   Posted 30/07/2011 at 13:02:25

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Lescott never acknowledged the Goodison faithful as they cheered his name and informed David Moyes an hour before the Arsenal game that he didn't want to play as his head weren't right. Various reports at the time said his attitude was shit in training too.

The speculation had been there in the January window but he still signed a contract in the March taking him upto around £50k a week. He also went on holidy to Dubai and stayed in the same hotel as Mark Hughes and John Terry, who Sitteh were also chasing heavily at the time.

I don't really blame Lescott for going and I think we did well to hold out for double what he was actally worth; however, I think the way Mark Hughes and City went about things (threatening to go above Moyes's head and talk to the 'money men'), was the thing that really pissed everyone off.

Mark Stone
95   Posted 30/07/2011 at 14:18:06

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Selling Lescott late was not the cause of our poor start. If it was, then what caused it last year? Moyes could have sold for £15m earlier but held out for an extra £9m. That was certainly not messing it up, not for a club with our debt. Should he hold out for the best possible money from Arsenal? Absolutely.

For me though selling Jags would be a mistake. He is one of our best players and I don't see the point in selling to buy. Would much rather see the back of players like Bily who are less important to our cause.
Steve Smith
96   Posted 30/07/2011 at 14:57:15

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Ed 86.
Fair points mate, although ironic that you mention Alan Ball in your list, if memory serves me right, he was sold against his wishes because Arsenal made an offer we couldn't refuse, a bit like the Rooney situation in my opinion, so maybe we wouldn't have kept Rooney in another era ?
It's also ironic that all of us now wring our hands and get so frustrated at clubs poaching our players, knowing that if they make the right offer. we'll sell. The very thing that we used to do to other clubs during the sixties and seventies.
Martin Handley
97   Posted 30/07/2011 at 17:04:26

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Al, it was his shit attitude in that Arsenal game that did it for me. He ducked out of every header, wouldn't tackle, and at one point even Fellaini took over at centre back! As you say, the worst thing he did was to ignore all those people ? especially the kids who were chanting his name. Not forgetting his pathetic attempt at appeasement back in April this year at the end of the game.

As it turns out, the better of the two players stayed.

Ryan Holroyd
98   Posted 31/07/2011 at 18:27:04

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Matt # 88

Totally agree.

Part of me can't wait until Moyes leaves then the people on here who call him every name under the sun will soon disappear when we get relegated.
Steve Sweeney
99   Posted 01/08/2011 at 10:57:33

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All on here who say sell Rodwell IMHO are Mad. This kid ? and 'kid' is what he is ? will develop into one of the best players in the PL. We should be building a side around him, not selling him.

And if Arsenal can be persuaded to pay £16/£17M for Jags then I would expect Moyes to reluctantly take it. He should be working on Yobo's confidence as, if Jags does go, Yobo will be back in the squad.

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