I ask this: Are you pleased with our tactics and how we have played for the last two games?
Reason I ask is because I think David Moyes has made us look poorer than we are. For example, we have played Cahill upfront on his own, which is not working. Stracqualursi with his height and strength is a better alternative, but he is left on the bench.
Many fans have voiced their anger at the referee, when in reality it is up to Everton to score the goals, not the referee. I think the problems lie in us not using Stracqualursi and Drenthe enough. They both clearly have something we need ? as do Barkley and Gueye by the way.
Defensively David Moyes is very good, but our defensive play has failed us this season. Offensively we seem to have nothing to offer, but is that true?
We play defensive 4-5-1 because Moyes thinks that is the best way. Maybe before this season we could play 4-5-1 and get results; however, this season shows us that we are lacking in midfield.
We lack players like Pienaar and Arteta who gives us precise passing going forward. We no longer have them, and therefore we need to adjust our tactics to the strength of our current squad. I firmly belive David Moyes needs to change things around until we can find out what works.
At the moment, we are heading into a downward spiral because we have not found out who is our current best eleven. The past season we had Beckford, Yakubu, and Arteta. A few other players have gone as well and we need to figure out a new side as we can not score and we fail to create enough quality chances.
I want to know how many of you feel that the 4-5-1 formation isn't working like it used to and that we need to change things a bit?
Jimmy Sorheim, Posted 06/10/2011 at
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1 Posted 06/10/2011 at 17:26:28
I don't agree with the Stracqualursi point. Dude doesn't even speak English yet so how can we say he is a better option than Cahill.
2 Posted 06/10/2011 at 17:43:28
Moyes's teams lack pace. We went to city the other week with an attacking midfielder playing upfront by himself when we had 3 forwards on the bench. He did the exact same thing at West Ham last year. He picks negative teams.
Although I think Drenthe has been average when I have seen him, he offers us pace, which is what we need. Barkley as well is not scared to run at players and is positive with the ball but they are both left on the bench. I think his tactics have cost us over the years, not just this year.
3 Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:46:44
Why is it that whenever we have a full squad ? no injuries, no suspensions ? Moyes cannot pick an attacking line up?
To play Cahill as a lone striker is ridiculous. But heyho IMWT.
What a joke.
4 Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:45:56
I can understand that, but I don't share your pessimistic "downward spiral," fatality either.
5 Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:54:00
The question about tactics is a red herring, but the OP is probably right to suggest we're not operating quite as effectively now. The reason? we haven't replaced those fine players with others of similar quality.
I firmly believe our problems are directly related to our inability to sign good players. The whole 4-4-2/4-5-1 debate is academic. In any case, Moyes has proved that loading up the midfield can be as effective an attacking mode as with two up front. Moving to 4-4-2 as a regular option is no more likely to win us games AT THE MOMENT as 4-5-1 ? we don't have the players to do it.
6 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:25:50
Tevez doesn't speak a word of English and he does ok when on the field.
7 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:23:19
How can you say Tactics are meaningless. Tactics are what win you games. If there were no tactics, what's the point of having a manager? You may as well just have a coach.
As regards to Moyes's negative tactics, I don't believe he knows how to set up the team to attack or draw out defences or counter-attack. I think I read on here that 4 out of 5 of our coaches are defenders with the other one being a midfielder ? Speaks volumes to me!.
8 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:35:43
9 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:42:32
10 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:22:09
And for me, he knows what players are definitely in his best 11 pretty much as well. IMO: Howard; Neville, Jags, Distin, Baines; Felli, Rodwell (maybe?), Coleman, Cahill, Osman; Saha.
For me, not just this season, but for the majority of last season as well, our play as been boring and shit due to not having enough pace and technical ability in the final third and being too defensive in having everyone behind the ball and in our own half when not in possession; it stiffles our attack cos we're so deep and don't have the pace to break or the technical ability to play our way into the final third to create goalscoring chances.
Now this season, with the likes of Drenthe, Barkley, Gueye and Vellios, he has players with pace and technical ability that would endorse our play IMO but most of them are deemed too inexperienced by Moyesy and he won't risk playing a couple of, if not all of them.
I'd just love for Moyesy to grow the balls to start playing the likes of Drenthe, Barkley and Gueye from the start and in a 4-2-3-1 formation as I think we do have the players suited to that system but he's too cautious with going with youth and prefers to go with experience more often than not.
Me personally, I'd go with Howard in goal, Coleman, Jags, Distin and Baines at the back, Felli and Rodders ahead of those, Gueye (rs), Barkley (c) and Drenthe (ls) ahead of them 2 and interchanging positions and then either one of Vellios, Stracqualursi and Saha up top, preferably one of the first 2!.
For me we'd have an experienced triangle of Howard, Jags and Distin at the back and then the rest of the team would be filled with young, exuberant, energetic, quick and technically sound players that I think would produce some good attacking football.
11 Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:01:37
12 Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:48:50
I think tactics are an easy thing to criticize because that's one of the few things we, the supporters, get to see. We don't know if someone showed up a few minutes late, had a little cough, or if a couple of the guys don't get along off the pitch. I don't mean to suggest anything and start rumors. I just don't think we are in a position to criticize tactics because there are so many other factors that go into team selection.
I remember hearing somewhere that Tevez speaks English but isn't comfortable speaking to reporters in anything but Spanish. Seeing how reporters tend to take things out of context, you can't blame the guy.
13 Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:31:34
All Moyes ever does is safety first... wouldn't it be nice just for once to start with two strikers at home??
14 Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:28:49
We can't keep clean sheet, looks like we concede at least 1 or 2 a match, when we can't score goals at the other end. Other than that, we are fine (as they say).
It is a side that is in transition, a side that will win one week, draw the next and lose the next. It has some top quality, but it has some average players. It lacks pace and a cutting edge that will turn 1 point into 3. It is average and it will finish mid-table.
It needs 3 to 4 new faces that will make a difference. It needs money to be spent wisely.
15 Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:25:12
I might've been tempted to put drenthe on from the start as he clearly has something we lack in terms of creative ability, directness and pace, which would have been useful against them. Sadly the ref put pay to any idea of us doing any more than parking the bus.
Against City, I'd agree 100% that Moyes made us look worse than we are and we went there with no plan to do anything but defend.
I've always thought that a good manager looks at the players at his disposal and fits the tactics around that. Moyes seems to be keen on fitting the player to a 4-5-1, regardless of how well they fit.
Thus, we have players like Rodwell or Bily shoved out on the wing, when they clearly are not wingers. Only Drenthe and Coleman play well in that role.
I actually think the players we have would suit a 4-3-3, with a main striker, 2 just in behind from Bily, Drenthe, Barkley, then a central midfield trio from Rodwell, Fellaini, Osman, Cahill, and a standard back 4.
Both Barkley and Drenthe have shown themselves to be liabilities defending or in the defensive part of the pitch due to their lack of PL experience, which is why giving them an attacking role not only fits with their abilities, but also prevents them giving away goals.
16 Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:14:23
Harsh to say that Moyes has "no clue."
It often takes time with new & fringe players. If he throws them all in at the deep-end & it doesn't immediately pan out - not only will he be open to the charge of exposing them too soon, but he alienates other players.
Equally, there are those who (with some justification) accuse him of having his favourites - a charge one could, however, level at any manager.
The clamour for Barkley concerns me. That on the basis of nascent potential, he should instantly command a regular starting berth, seems naive, fickle & quick-fix. Moyes takes the long view - Hibbert, Osman & Rodwell are testament to this strategy.
17 Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:17:03
Strange thing is this, Moyes prefers putting in Saha who has been injured and just recently declarted fit plus he hasnt even played one game for the reserves. What does that tell you? That tells you that Saha is his number one, no matter how unfit he is, he gets to play either way. It is unfair to Straq. and it seems to me that key players such as Saha or Cahill has to be ijured before Straqualursi can even dream of playing. Same thing last year with Louis, he was out of form and gave us nothing until January, in the meantime Yakubu had a great game against the reds and he scored against stoke. I think Moyes is predictable as this seems to happen each year, he cant cope with a full squad, he needs injuries to play the right players. I know that sounds a bit weird but it is true, that just shows that he copes better under pressure I belive. In a fully fit squad he reverts to his prefered 4-5-1 wich I fully belive doesnt fit us this season only because we have lost Arteta, Pienaar, Beckford and Yakubu.
I can tell you this, it will take a LONG time before this new team can settle in to this formation. I agree with Wayne Smith in that Moyes tries to fit the players into this formation, instead of playing the natural formation that this squad can do. I belive 4-3-2-1 or 4-1-2-1-2 is more natural than the dependance on wingers in 4-5-1, as we have no good wingers at the moment.l W e have lots of central midfielders therefore 4-5-1 does not fit us anymore!
18 Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:54:40
Perhaps Moyes sees that gaining a point against any opposition is more important than risk loosing a point for the sake of three.
19 Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:46:34
20 Posted 06/10/2011 at 22:27:34
Also, please give Moyes some credit, he knows far more about selection and tactics than anybody on here and he sees the players all week. He picks Cahill because Tim Cahill is a bloody good forward and Vellios and Straqualursi are potentially good and there is a difference.
Virtually every club in the EPL plays 4-5-1 and virtually every club has to play patient sideways and backward ball at times to try to create opportunities against well organised defences. Gung-ho attacking soccer died about the time the EPL started and those who practice it now are out of the EPL like Holloway's Blackpool and like De Matteo's West Brom would have been if he hadn't been fired.
We aren't Chelsea, we aren't Man United. We are a small club with very limited resources and 4-5-1 is essential for us. We have made it work very well at times but it takes a very special type of forward to make it work well (like Marcus Bent). Were struggling to find that man now. It isn't Saha unfortunately brilliant though he is.
Everton 4-4-2 and attacking good sides? Get real please, we would be on the receiving end of a hiding against most sides away and manyat home.
21 Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:10:15
451 is only any good when you have pace in midfield to enable players to get up in support.
without pace in midfield we must play 442 which gives us options up front.
451 at home causes us to struggle to create. Wigan? We had to put forwards on to chase the game.
Why do you think we failed to beat 7 of last seasons bottom 10 at home? They defended and we couldnt break them down with the negative tactics.
The nig teams came out to play and left gaps to exploit.
22 Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:01:12
Think the main point is that regardless of the opposition, we play the same defensive conservative game. Remember West Ham last year, QPR this year? To name just a few.
I could stomach the defensive play away to the top sides if we showed some positivity against the none top sides - unfortunately the manager only has one trick IMO.
23 Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:12:36
451 ( can ) becomes 433 and even 244 when you attack in numbers...But that's all these 451's are; labels, the numbers game. You have 10 so how many ways can you permutate them...It means nothing
How you send those 10 out to play. the set up, the formation, the sq pegs in round holes...or even in Moyeses case actually KNOWING what your best 11 is.
And for all those who blat on about 1970 being 451, bollocks it was the formation of the time 433, The Holy Trinity ring a bell with any one...3 in the middle, but with actual wingers who could at times drop back.
When Whittle played at the end of the season it did morph into 451 at times. I changed and evolved as the dictates of the game demanded.
But yes Tactics matter and Moyeses, by enlarge are lacking.
24 Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:31:54
It's these decisions that make a number of people question Moyes ability to manage. Don't get me wrong, he's done a great job at the club and I admire him for it, but his inability to adapt will cost us soon.
25 Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:27:49
But If Moyes tactics are so bad, why does he finish higher up the table than most teams who have spent tens of millions more than him?
The players want to play for him and give him 100%, that is worth far more than tactics.
26 Posted 07/10/2011 at 00:41:16
'play your best players in their best positions whilst trying to keep a balance to the side.'
Exactly what Moyes doesn't do!!!!!!!! He plays his players out of position and the only balance he employs for our side is a defensive one. Oh yeh, but when we go one goal down he makes an attacking change. Fuckin frustrating to watch.
27 Posted 07/10/2011 at 01:11:12
If he was given money, he could go out and buy some. Incidentally he has brought one in on loan because he can afford to buy one, but he hasn't been match fit because he didn't have a pre-season.
Exactly, there is a defensive balance to the side because our better players are defenders because defensive players are generally cheaper than attacking players, so he has to set his team up defensive and play to their stengths, then when we are losing he can bring on his untried, unfit attackers against the tired legs of the opposition. Smart move on Moyes part, that is why he has the best point-per-pound ratio in the league.
28 Posted 07/10/2011 at 01:44:51
29 Posted 07/10/2011 at 04:51:48
Football has moved on from 4-4-2. Barcelona play the best football in the world right now, some of the best football ever seen in fact, and they play a 4-2-3-1. Arsenal, Chelsea, Real Madrid etc. ditto.
It annoys me as well when people talk about playing different formations home and away, the best teams play their best players in their best formation with no regard for home and away.
For the record I believe Moyes actually sets his team up as a 4-2-3-1. When we had Pienaar, Arteta and Donovan a couple of seasons ago it worked like a charm.
It could work again with:
Rodwell and Fellaini as the 2 midfielders.
Drenthe, Cahill and Coleman as the 3 attacking mids/wingers.
Saha up front.
I'd put money on seeing exactly this in the next game, except possibly with Osman in for Drenthe or Coleman.
30 Posted 07/10/2011 at 07:16:49
31 Posted 07/10/2011 at 07:41:02
I think the root cause of the problem lies elsewhere.
32 Posted 07/10/2011 at 08:42:09
33 Posted 07/10/2011 at 09:53:17
34 Posted 07/10/2011 at 10:53:35
Hibbert, Heitinga, Distin, Baines
Coleman, Fellaini, Rodwell, Drenthe
35 Posted 07/10/2011 at 11:45:07
Anyways, just realised its International weekend, couldn't give a dam. Was looking forward to the Chelsea match.
36 Posted 07/10/2011 at 12:08:13
37 Posted 07/10/2011 at 12:39:18
38 Posted 07/10/2011 at 11:01:32
Coleman Jagielka Distin Baines
Gueye Fellaini Drenthe
Bench: Mucha, Heitinga, Rodwell, Cahill, Vellios, Stracqualursi.
Obviously that's dreaming but it would be great to see a team such an attacking team with a solid defensive spine. Granted, Coleman needs to learn more about the RB position and Barkley is still raw but getting games is the best way to develop. Injuries would see us still have the likes of Osman, Hibbert and Bilyaletdinov ready to step in. Anichebe would be sold.
Then I would wake up and have my corn flakes!
39 Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:12:34
I do like what is taking shape with your team... but, if you're quick and can pick another starter and another sub, I won't tell anyone you can't count.
40 Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:36:13
It has been SOOOOO LOOOOOOONG since I can remeber us playing 4-4-2 with two genuine real strikers under Moyes, it is becoming a myth to the attackers that 442 or 433 even exist anymore. I mean how do Vellios and Straqulursi even know how to play 442 in the last 5-10 minutes of matches if they dont get to practice in whole games at it? Of course Vellios will stagnate now unless he is given more playing time, perhaps 45 mintues would be a start. I have a feeling Straqualursi has a lot more to offer right now than Cahill and Saha for example. With Saha you get to see when he misses and puts his hands on top of his head as he always does, It is getting frustrating and as Laurie nr.34 said we are looking concecutive losses like last year becuse we have Chelsea and Manureanus in the next few games so it looks very bad indeed, and I think fewer people will want to turn up as thyese defnsive formations at home are more boring than watching paint dry or watching a dog take a crap.
41 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:39:17
42 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:41:44
The lad looks a decent player but I wouldn't be having him down as the next big thing from what i've seen.
Barkley is another who genuinely looks like he could be a world-beater but not just yet.
I'm not saying they shouldn't get run outs but i think it's asking an awful lot for them to be regular first team players and making an impact.
43 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:28:18
44 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:25:36
Barcelona have been playing with TWO centre halfs (one of them a converted defensive midfielder) and a pletoria of midfielders.
They don't even play a forward in the traditional sense rather Messi as a 'false' number 9.
I agree with others about formations and the like. We need to be much more flexible. This obesssion the English football public have with 4-4-2 is crazy.
45 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:29:36
46 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:53:28
To be fair I was at work at the time and multi tasking so you can let me off on that one. Take your pick for the missing sub!
47 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:57:05
48 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:53:59
49 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:35:23
50 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:46:45
Kevin #16 the trouble with Moyes long view could also be seen as a weakness; sentiment has a value, sentimentality (which is different) is a weakness in this workplace. When a player is out of form, still injured, not performing or simply coming to the end of their game they need to be dropped.
51 Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:18:01
52 Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:37:55
This has been going like you say since Lescott left. Up until 2009 we were always difficult to beat, then in 2009/2010 season after our traditional bad start we had a great end to the season. Then we were tipped by many for top 4 the next season but a bad start again and sloppy goals cost us. Everton used to be very hard to beat we would only need to score 1/2 goals to win. Over the last few years most of our 1-0/2-1 wins have turned to draws.
53 Posted 07/10/2011 at 22:07:13
I used to be positive about Everton before every season but now we are lost, we just dont have the right players to play 4-5-1 anymore. How long will it take before Moyes does something about that? Either buys in January or changes the team tactics around?
I am pleased at what has been done in the past but I am not pleased about what IS being done now.
To me it seems that Moyes has given up on winning, it is shameful and I for one think that this club stands for much more than overly defensive 4-5-1 for 38 matches each season.
I actually miss Howard Kendall, only because Moyes has lost his passion to do well with this club! His words after Man City made me angry because I really feel we could have fielded a much more aggresive team.
54 Posted 07/10/2011 at 22:19:23
Villa has been playing wide left tho.
And that's kind of my point. Modern teams are now flexible in their approach.
Not two lines of four and two forwards.
55 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:33:52
How many times have Everton taken the lead in a game in recent memory? Far too many times we concede silly goals and then sit on the edges of our seat desperate for an equaliser, hoping to get a draw instead of being entertained taking a lead and keeping it or even putting some distance between us and our opposition by scoring again.
56 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:09:32
Perhaps he's willing to go for the mid-table safe defensive posture and pick up his wage every month rather than have to face an actual challenge.
That's the only thing I can think of. I mean, any other person when faced with the fact, week-in & week-out, that their tactics are obvious to the opposition and not working, would surely change them?
Anyway, back to my original question. Shouldn't Moyes be pressurising Bill for signings and shouldn't Bill be pressurising Davey for results ? rather than patting each other on the back after another 1-0 loss we could have possibly won... if we had money?
57 Posted 08/10/2011 at 08:17:26
If a defensive line-up is played, it just invites the other team to constantly attack, with the result that eventually they are likely to score. Sometimes, Moyes seems to be almost pleased that we lasted nearly 90 minutes before conceding a goal ? what's the point if you lose? You might as well attack and lose ? at least you have tried to win the game!
That paragraph above sums up Everton's play. 4-5-1 is absolutely fine if the players are encouraged to attack. I believe we have good players who can hold their own against most teams in this league but they must play attacking football ? which they are all capable of doing.
From Howard forward, everyone should be looking to keep possession; no hoofing, no kicking the ball up in the air to space, the ball should always be played to feet. Howard, Hibbert and Jagielka are the worst offenders, it must be cut out.
Other teams in Europe have won titles on a shoestring because they have a progressive positive-minded manger so why can't we? The answer is Moyes ? he always seems to convey a feeling of negativity in my mind. One gets the feeling that he is thinking 'well they have spent millions on their players so what chance have we got?' He then passes this sentiment over to the players who spend 90-odd minutes believing that they have no chance against team like City because they have spent a fortune on players and we haven't!
I want a motivator as well as a sophisticated tactician in charge at Goodison. We can do it with the right man. COYB!
58 Posted 08/10/2011 at 09:19:32
The problem with playing 4-5-1 is that the 5 in midfield who are either midfielders or defenders naturally will want to drop to the position they are used to. Thus, if Neville is the holding player, you often see him in line with the back 4.
The upshot is that the striker ends up stranded 40 yards from the nearest Everton player far too often and the ball comes back or our attacks are too pedestrian.
59 Posted 09/10/2011 at 01:19:09
It is so sad,after so many years with Moyes to see us fail in every aspect of the game. We dont create we dont score and I feel it is just time for Moyes to go. Nothing bad about him, I just think he has been worn out.
I feel sad going forward as Kenwright will not fire Moyes and Moyes likes his money.
I have seen other clubs sell their stars and they suffer for it, but we dont replace them so that is part of the problem.
As we know we will struggle badly if we dont get anybody in who can replace our ex-stars.
I feel like watching Everton play now feels like watching a funeral. How sad is that!!!
60 Posted 09/10/2011 at 04:11:04
61 Posted 09/10/2011 at 05:07:27
Let us assume for a minute we had just got promoted with some garbage players, Moyes was handed a war chest and spent it as follows on a mixture of young talent and experience.
$10 million on Howard
$10 million on Coleman
$25 million on Baines
$20 million on Jagielka
$5 million on Distin
$20 million on Rodwell
$25 million on Barkley
$10 million on Drenthe
$20 million on Fellaini
$10 million os Saha
$10 million on Cahill
Now those figures aren't too far away from current market value in my opinion, so Moyes spends $165 million and puts that team out, what would everyone expect?????????? What would (should) Moyes attitude be??????
BTW, my iPad is set up for dollars, but all the above is in GBP ;)
Would it be, "oh we can't compete with City etc. Etc."
" We've spent $165 million on some of the best players in the EPL, we can win the league with this lot, attack, attack, attack"
Talent and money are NOT the same.
62 Posted 09/10/2011 at 13:22:20
63 Posted 09/10/2011 at 22:05:23
64 Posted 09/10/2011 at 22:10:33
Ten million (whatever) for Coleman? I have a nice wee motor you might be interested in....of course Andy lives a bit closer so maybe ....
65 Posted 10/10/2011 at 02:49:26
66 Posted 10/10/2011 at 16:24:01
Your valuations, in all honesty, are probably around £60/70m over the top. That's quite a difference.
There's also the fact that while a player may be worth a certain amount of money - let's say £14m is Jagielka's market value -it's not the same as having spent that money. If we had £14m to spend then we may well have spent it on an attacking player rather than a centre half.
67 Posted 12/10/2011 at 07:43:59
The point I am trying to make is, this team IS worth a LOT of money and IF we had to buy them on the open market they WOULD cost something around that the values I proposed, indeed many of the players have been linked with moves away from Goodison for the values stated. Therefore the values are realistic, assuming the players clubs were prepared to sell reluctantly.
Funnily enough, the next day I posted my initial thoughts Leighton Baines comes out and says pretty much exactly the same thing, clever lad that Leighton you know, must read ToffeeWeb!!!!
68 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:12:13
My prefered line up would be -
Heitinga, Jagielka, Distin, Baines
Coleman, Felliani, Cahill, Drenthe
Saha, (Vellios or Argentian dude)
(would also like to see Bily in the attacking midfield position behind the striker, i believe that is his prefered position and in the past when he has found himself in the middle he looks threatening)
And also bring on these promising young guys like Barkley and Gueye more often they provide pace and enthusiasm plus the other teams no very little about there style of play.
Overall the team has to play a positive attacking style not a defensive hopeful style
69 Posted 12/10/2011 at 20:13:59
As a manager, he has not got a clue which he has proved time after time.
We have good young players like Barkley, Rodwell, Gueye & Vellios but ? instead of giving them the opportunity to shine ? he always picks shite players like Osman and Hibbert and Neville who, as far as I am concerned, have never been good enough. Osman is too physically weak and shoots like a pansy, Hibbert just runs up and down like a headless chicken throwing himself into badly timed tackles and he fills me with fear every time he is on the pitch.
Why can't Moyes try something different instead of the same predictable average players who have already failed in his 10 year reign to achieve anything? When will he realise that his negative attitude and team selection are what is really the problem with this great club and the Evertonians that except the "They have spent more money than us" excuse that he reels out every week in his tedious match interviews are just as much to blame.
Moyes is not the Everton saviour that most people assume he is but the downfall of our club along with his bum chum BK. Why is Anichebe still at the club after years of doing nothing? Instead of getting rid, Moyes flogs Beckford and gives Anichebe a new contract! That to me shows how clueless he really is. The day he leaves EFC, I will throw a party.
70 Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:17:53
The values set for our players are way over the top but even so Modric had £40m bid for him by Chelsea our best midfielder only went for £10m, so i'll do my own similar valuations of the Spurs midfield to compare with Mr Shields's version of our midfield.
Van der Vart £30m
Do you still think we should be doing better than these teams?
71 Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:28:01
72 Posted 13/10/2011 at 11:59:13
In your world everything Moyes does is right, yet at the same time all his players are crap, yet he bought them. You arguments are pathetic, but very very funny, keep em coming, it's actually quite entertaining. Get your Moyes excuses ready for Chelsea, oh yeh how silly of me, they've spent more money than us so we can't compete, haha! I hope you put your money where your mouth is and support the mighty blues down at Stamford Bridge in person and enjoy 90 minutes of 11 men behind the ball like at City.
Vijay, you make some very valid points that the likes of Tunstead will never see.
73 Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:38:18
"Why can't Moyes try something different instead of the same predictable average players who have already failed in his 10 year reign to achieve anything?"
That's what pre-seasons are for when you want to try something different in a non-competitive match. Except Moyes tried to perfect on his negative tactics. Annother wasted pre-season.
74 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:00:12
I can't find anything myself
75 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:22:52
76 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:33:26
"Let's show our fighting spirit."
Why not 'Let's go and show them what a good footballing side we are.'
Nah. Let's just go out there and kick fuck out of them.
77 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:33:35
I can't find anything myself"
Maybe the bum chum line. As far as I can tell both Moyes and Kenright are heterosexual. Could be wrong though, look at Elton John.
78 Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:18:46
Okay I've watched my great team under all these other managers, so what if they tried to win games playing attractive football with the likes of Martin Dobson, Duncan Mckenzie, Andy King, Trevor Steven, Kevin Sheedy, et al. Just look at David Moyes's record over the last ten years... yeah, staggeringly brilliant don't you think.
I love the fact we have beaten our neighbours 4 times and have a beaten Man Utd and Chelsea and don't forget Arsenal on the odd occasion. As you will no doubt agree, a record that is amazing and will go down well in the great history of our most sacred club.
79 Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:47:55
That is what I think of Moyes's tactics for this season and every other season under him. Sometimes the 'everyone behind the ball', overly defensive tactics have worked ? like when we reached fourth and qualified for Europe, but belief, team spirit and luck played its part.
Moyes would be better off in the Scottish League where he really might win something but he doesn't want to leave the cushiest job in football and he knows he'll never get a bigger job unless you think the Celtic job is bigger (which I don't).
Moyes is the Curbishley of the Prem: praised for keeping a steady ship but, when there is expectation, he will fail. It's ironic because someone who doesn't like wingers seems to be winging it.
80 Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:36:27
In my World not everything Moyes does is right, but who am I to judge him? He will get it right more than anyone on here, for the simple fact that he does the job for real on a day to day basis and has the benefit of seeing his players everyday in trainings.
We can all have our own opinions but I value Moyes or any other prem managers more highly than yours, and most prem managers rate him as one of the best. I am not saying Moyes players are crap either, he has bought well considering the circumstances but relative to the top sides in the league some are lacking.
The only thing that is pathetic is your whole post giving our players your own valuation which is a complete non argument. Instead of giving Moyes credit for spending relatively small amounts on shrewd singings and developing the players, instead you twist the whole thing to turn it in to a negative but don?t take into account the valuation of other teams. One of the worst posts I think I have read in 5 or 6 years.
You have arm chair managers or FM and FIFA computer managers coming on here giving their expert opinion and actually criticising the likes of Capello. Its like me giving Floyd Maywether boxing advice because I used to be good on some boxing game on the playstation. At least give realistic arguments instead of plucking figures out of thin air, you make yourself look stupid.
As for Chelsea, I don?t have to make excuses, the facts are there for all to see.
81 Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:46:51
This is ridiculous - do you expect Hibbert to run sideways instead? Even the worst boo boys blame Hibbert for everything but his tackles. Filled with fear? unless you play on the same pitch as him.
82 Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:37:20
I will just copy and paste 2 or 3 quotes at the beginning which are complete crap or blatant lies.
?As a manager, he has not got a clue which he has proved time after time.? ? On who?s say so? Not according to all the other managers who have voted him as the best manager in the league 3 times.
?We have good young players like Barkley, Rodwell, Gueye & Vellios but ? instead of giving them the opportunity to shine ? he always picks shite players like Osman and Hibbert and Neville who, as far as I am concerned, have never been good enough.? ? Erm? Barkley has had plenty of ?opportunities? and would have had more last season only for his broken leg and only for falling to pieces in the Blackburn game and doing nothing against West Brom. Rodwell is actually getting a game ahead of Neville, so that is bollocks. Gueye has been injured, so his only argument is Vellios, but he will get more playing time over the course of the season and has still had ?opportunities? this season.
Also doesn?t that reinforce the argument what a good job he is doing having to work with the likes of Hibbert, Osman and Neville? Ask your self the question, if Neville and Hibbert don?t play, who will play RB? Coleman? Well who will play RM then? Osman? Oh no because he would have to play somebody out of position?..! It's all Moyes fault he couldn?t afford Donavan or N'Zogbia!
?Moyes is not the Everton saviour that most people assume he is but the downfall of our club along with his bum chum BK.? ?Let's get it right, we were heading for relegation until Moyes walked through the door so please stop talking bollocks and wasting my time trying to explain to you the most obvious of things.
83 Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:37:52
Firstly your valuations are not realistic. Not even close in some cases. If you think somebody would pay £10m for Howard or Cahill I honestly have to question your sanity.
Also my point was that although on an open market somebody may be worth a certain amount of money it is not the same as them actually costing that amount. For example if in some parallel universe we really could sell those two and raise £20m, i have no doubt that we would, and use the money on a striker. Do you see now?
I'm not blindly supporting Moyes, so don't bother calling me an apologist or whatever other embarrassing nicknames we've got now - i don't like some of the defensive minded stuff i've seen recently any more than the next man - but to suggest that we have the players to match teams like city and chelsea is just plain wrong.
84 Posted 13/10/2011 at 18:30:09
a) Have some pace.
b) Have some natural wide players
c) Not be reduced to playing an attacking midfielder up front because we have no strikers.
strange that we never seem to run out of goalkeepers or defenders though....anyway, I digress.
Now, Moyes NET spend may not be much, but he has bought the likes of Yobo, Heitinga, Bily which by my reckoning is £20M of talent. They are all good players, but either have fallen foul of Moyes, or are just not good in the roles we play them in. Hence we are devoid of creativity and goals, but are happy to watch £20M worth of talent not play for us.
We've also spent £15 on Fellaini, and as much as I like him, I dont think we can afford a defensive midfielder of that price when we clearly can't scrape a fit forward or winger out of the barrel.
You could argue a lot of the "blame" lies with Kenwright, but I actually think Moyes is most at fault.
I think the problems started back when Lescott was sold. Moyes should've basically got shot of Lescott as soon as it was clear he didn't want to stay. Name his price of £23M or whatever and let Mancini take him. Instead we had the usual crap about him not being sold, had a fucked up start to that season, and ended up with £23M spent on panic buys at the last minute. Although Bily and Heitinga are good players, we just dont need them in our squad.
If Moyes sides are a reflection of him, we clearly need a strong-willed attack-minded coach alongside him who can provide a bit more balance to his views. Otherwise all we'll ever be is a side which can be difficult to beat.
85 Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:37:38
I don't like or use the term apologist and I believe that you are as aware of his shortcomings as I am. It seems to me that you take the view, as does Dave Wilson, that with Kenwright at the helm we need Moyes to keep us safe until times get better. I disagree; I believe that times are not going to get better without taking a chance and making a change.
I have, in the heat of the moment, made comments about David Moyes that I regret but my fundamental view remains unchanged. I believe we need a new coach.
86 Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:49:07
You're right of course.
Football is a competition
Spectators watch for enjoyment.
In 10 yrs Moyes hasn't come near to creating a team that addresses either let alone win anything, his threadbare return is simply an improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less.
Fans simmer at Goodison rather than rebel because info is drip fed to friendly media to provide excuses.
It's shortsighted because no protest is seen as tacit support, the natural reluctance to criticise your club is being manipulated.
It's the attempts at defending what Moyes has "achieved" and proffering it as the way forward that bemuses me.
EVEN though virtually all agree with the criticisms of Moyes - his bizarre selections and unbalanced teams - the long pseudo analytical diatribes defending the ineptitude and resultant mediocrity are a phenomenen. Especially when they toss in what they see as their "Kryptonite" questions:-
"Who compares with Moyes in the circumstances and who could replace him?"
The fact nobody with his record has lasted 10 yrs to make comparisons eludes them. We dare not include the 2 who have because it's not fair as they've won stuff ? and daring to proffer other managers as alternatives is heresy evoking a full-scale strop.
87 Posted 13/10/2011 at 20:58:58
Quite a patronising and self-congratulatory post if you don't mind me saying so.
Your comment "improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less" fails to acknowledge that by the time Rooney was sold, the team was virtually unrecognisable from Smith's outfit and we appeared later that year in the Champions League so your argument doesn't really stack up either
88 Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:00:41
On the one hand, Kenwright gets to invest no money and run the club in an unprofessional manner, yet he is able to keep hold of his train set as he spins himself as the concerned "fan-turned-chairman".
At the same time, Moyes gets the most secure job in the Premier League paying a fantastic salary and has a pre-made excuse when we get beat. It's in neither of their interests to rock the boat despite the fact that we appear to be heading backwards.
If we play dour football, set the team out with no ambition or belief to win a football match, then it's all because of the lack of funds.
My problem with this theory is that, for every game we lose against the Man City or the RS, there is also a game where we get played off the park by teams assembled for a fraction of the cost of our own.
We could point to games like Brentford a few seasons ago, or on our trips in Europe playing Metalist, or the game against Blackburn a few months back. The list goes on...
89 Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:24:35
Respectfully mate, this is the "wood for the trees" problem with the disciple of Moyes approach, you write this:
"Your comment "improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less" fails to acknowledge that by the time Rooney was sold, "
Completely ignoring this prodigy, now acknowledged as the best player in the UK, ACTUALLY played for us.
Ballwatching, c'mon mate - "man on" - concentrate.
90 Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:39:59
I am certain he will get the Spurs job and make a success of it if Harry gets the England job. The club was sliding towards the trap door before he came, and will slide to the trap door if he quits.
Who ever comes in after he goes ? and it could be December given the run we are on ? is going to have to be pretty good as given the lack of funds he's going have to sell any quality that we have/be pretty persuasive to try and keep hold of the better players against a backdrop of an ageing, unbalanced, threadbare squad.
I am sure I will get slated here, but as I say I have never heard a better alternative to Moyes despite his faults (and I admit he has them).
91 Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:53:51
Actually by the time Rooney was sold Moyes' had already completely revolutionised the squad, a squad with which he qualified (well nearly) for the Champions League.
To say his improvements on Smith are courtesy of Rooney, are therefore innacurate because he had assembled a squad capable of finishing fourth (without Rooney) and furthermore hadn't used Rooney money to significantly improve the squad so your point doesn't stand.. wasted!!
92 Posted 13/10/2011 at 22:04:44
93 Posted 13/10/2011 at 23:09:37
"Hah, but your point was that Moyes's improvement on Smith was only due to (the sale of) Rooney."
You disappoint me, Drew, I know you'd like to think I said that - but I didn't.
Drew this really is a problem with the Moyes support.
94 Posted 14/10/2011 at 00:27:15
In my opinion, he's done nothing for the club, he picks up £3.4mill a year and we all think he's great man for keeping us up! Someone on this site reckoned "he'd done a great job and has a record that is second to none". Trapatoni tactics that's all he knows!
95 Posted 14/10/2011 at 01:28:44
"Everton have a reasonably good squad of players the problem is we don't see them!"
So what? The important thing is that Moyes sees them everyday in training and so they are obviously not as good as the team he picks on match day. Maybe he should be given credit for bringing in these squad players. But what does Moyes know, you are obviously a world renowned expert on tactics.
96 Posted 14/10/2011 at 09:31:58
Who came up with the big bonuses? The banks.... Who paid and is still paying for it? The Governments... Who pays the Governments? Us... and it is us that has to deal with the grim aftermath, long after the bankers have retired to their yachts.
Some people see past this "other managers think he's great, so he must be" garbage. We watch the Mighty Blues week-in week-out, not once every blue moon before we play THEIR team, but THEY obviously know better than us!
Ian, start looking instead of watching, you might be surprised by what you see.
97 Posted 14/10/2011 at 09:55:12
I think Moyes would love to play like the Italian club sides of the 70's, set out primarily not to concede and bugger entertaining the fans. Unfortunately, he does not have defenders at the moment with that kind of wit and movement and Jagielka who has been a rock in the past, seems to be putting his boots on the wrong feet match after match.
For God's sake, even the Walter Smith side was now and again expansive and entertaining, not that I would wish those days back but does anyone remember the 6-0 destruction of a West Ham side with Rio Ferdinand as centre back?
I think the thought of one of his sides trying to play like that and outscore opponents would probably induce a stress related stroke in 'wor' Davey.
98 Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:14:38
?David Moyes is the best manager we have had at Everton? ? That is on par with Tunstead?s pathetic ramblings on this site.
Tunstead: ?our best midfielder only went for £10m? ?We got ripped off with Arteta (Moyes should not have allowed this). Wenger never pays over the odds, always under, in my opinion... why, he has kept a side in the Champions League places 13 seasons running with a negative net spend. Moyes ? take note! With your positive net spend, add up Weneger?s cost per points ? he actually made money!
?It's all Moyes's fault he couldn?t afford Donavan or N'Zogbia!?
I believe we were after Jo for £15 to 20 million ? whosever fault that is we didn?t get him, I?m glad ? or we would have another Yakubu / Fellaini . / Bily / Heitinga situation.
Ian, you are the worst apologist on this site by far; I believe it is fans like you that have turned us into a top flight version of Crewe. Everton is a joke from top to bottom ? it needs change at the bottom before it will happen at the top.
99 Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:29:20
?The club was sliding towards the trap door before he came? ? No it wasn?t; he took over a last-8 team in the FA Cup and one that finished comfortably above the relegation zone. Also, he inherited the best striker in world football. Whoever took over would have had to have been a massive tit to take us down.
?...and will slide to the trap door if he quits.? ? This just means if he doesn?t leave the club in a better condition than he found it then he really hasn?t done a job, has he?
?...a backdrop of an ageing, unbalanced, threadbare squad.? ? Says it all really; whose fault is this?
100 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:22:23
Who is that then? Did Moyes sell his players because he wanted to? Don't need him, off with you... or did he have to sell the players because we couldn't afford to keep them? Not only does he have to sell them, he can't replace them. The one thing you cannot blame Moyes for is the threadbare squad.
"His threadbare return is simply an improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney" Trevor, considering we missed out qualifying for Europe the last day of the season with Rooney in the squad kind of negates your points, doesn't it? The next year we got into the Champions League Qualifiers, not bad for a manager who is apparently shite.
The problem we have now is that he gave us a few seasons of sustained "half-decent" league finishes; unfortunately, the squad has been picked bare and no-one has replaced our better players so we have an ageing and predictable team that is going nowhere, without an influx of money to buy better players.
101 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:47:42
Thank you Tony...
102 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:45:03
As for your analogy, what are you trying to say? That we have a good squad of players, good enough to win trophies or leagues, but Moyes is deliberately holding us back by playing his worst players and adopting negative tactics to prevent us from having success, where would be the logic in that? I can see what the bankers got out of the exploits but what is Moyes getting out of it? What does it have to do with anything in this debate? Surely it would be easier to be successful if the opportunity is there.
Your analogy just doesn?t hold water, it?s completely different thing altogether; at least my analogy was a sporting analogy.
You are clearly delusional and there are not reasonable, logical or rational thoughts in your head. Your post on the valuations of players proved that and your latest one bringing the banks into it is the icing on the cake.
103 Posted 14/10/2011 at 13:00:21
Another fact was that Chelsea offered £40m for Modric, because that is what they think he is worth. Spurs didn?t sell for that so he is obviously worth more that to them.
Robbie's values were not facts ? they were delusions in his own mind ? just like yours in believing Arteta to be worth more than £10m... you have your Arteta tinted specs on, mate, maybe you should watch other players like Modric and you will see the difference between a £10m player and a £40m player.
As for Wenger, haven't you heard all the criticism he?s been getting off his own fans the past few season? Haven't you noticed their lack of progression since Wenger became a bit tighter with his money?
We were also not after Jo for £15-20 million for the simple fact we didn?t have £15-£20m to spend. We probably made inquiries thinking we could get him on loan or a few million and his club instantly put a £19m price tag on his head. We got him on loan, cost us nothing, scored us a few goals, no great loss.
As for the other players you mention, Fellaini and Heitinga have done well for the club and even Bily's stats in terms of goals and assists compared to games shows he has played his part; they might not have been Moyes's best buys but for every average or poor buy I could name you two very good buys and two managers who have been less successful than Moyes in transfer dealings.
Also I don?t believe it is because of fans like me who have turned this club into the top flight version of Crewe; I believe it is fans like you, because whenever I stop commenting on this site and the negatives and Moyes bashers are allowed to take over, the negativity is transferred from these sites to the match going fans and eventually to the players, and we suddenly find ourselves on a terrible run of results. But the negatives or 0.02% are only a small part, the biggest thing is Moyes not having a level playing field in terms of money for top players.
Finally, could you name me this truck load of managers that Everton could attract who would be better than Moyes? I need a good laugh after reading some of the drivel on here.
104 Posted 14/10/2011 at 13:20:50
I can and do, if you waste all the Lescott money on crap like Bily, Heitinga, Distin and spend £11 million on Yakubu, £15 million on Fellaini... how much value of player do we have there altogether for an outlay of £50 million? About £10 million return in total, if we are lucky; therefore he could have had a much better squad and team if he spent big well.
Bily £0 million
Fellaini £5 million (he is crap low contract)
Hetinga £2 million
Yakubu £1.5 million
Distin £2 million
Even if you do not blame Moyes for the thredbare squad, that leaves ageing and unbalanced ?still not good reading.
105 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:19:19
106 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:37:20
107 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:25:41
In a Peter Jones style: "...and that's why I'm out!"
108 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:42:06
So when we go on a poor run of results it's not due to Moyes, the players, bad luck or injuries but rather it's because you haven't bothered posting on Toffeeweb for a bit?
If it works the other way around we must be due to hit some shit hot form pretty soon then because you've been banging on loads lately!
109 Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:48:09
"I need a good laugh after reading some of the drivel on here."
You must be reading a lot of your own post's and having a right old chuckle then.
You have just claimed that you are single-handedly responsible for the atmosphere or lack thereof in GP on matchdays.
110 Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:45:17
"Only 0.02% of people would say Distin was a waste of money and a World Cup Finalist and Dutch International was crap."
Only an apologist would say that.
Distin is worse than Yobo, makes more mistakes; Heitinga offers nothing to the team whatsoever.
111 Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:36:43
If he's such a great manager, why don't the rich teams ever want him? Best he's likely to get is a gig with Villa, or more likely Celtic due to his connections. Hardly a step up imho, or a ringing endorsement of his exceptional quality.
I prefer to judge people on the here and now rather than what happened 5 or 10 years ago. Moyes last won the LMA manager of the year in 2009. Since then he seems to have vastly lowered his own expectations and ambitions and we have been heading in reverse.
10 years ago he did a great job because he had energy and was positive, even 5 years ago we were just a few players away from being regular contenders for a CL spot. Since then he has looked ever more miserable than usual and his lack of energy and motivation is obviously filtering through.
I personally think its time for a change. Moyes has been here long enough for us to know he's not going to change his ways, and I can't see us improving or even standing where we are under his style of management. I'd rather we take a risk with a more forward thinking manager(e.g. Martinez, Holloway or even a foreign-based coach like Pellegrini) and give them a sustained shot with a bigger club(budget) than they are used to managing.
We may not finish best of the rest most seasons, but you never know if you don't try....and under the current manager it seems we've given up trying.
112 Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:09:23
"Whenever I stop commenting on this site and the negatives and Moyes bashers are allowed to take over, the negativity is transferred from these sites to the match going fans and eventually to the players, and we suddenly find ourselves on a terrible run of results."
This is the biggest load of bullshit ever!
113 Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:25:46
Similarly I don't recall too many moaning about Yakubu when he scored 20 goals in his first season, and he seemed to be elevated to god-like status by many people when he was shipped out on loan last year - as if letting him go was the very epitome of Moyes' 'negativity'.
114 Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:28:18
But yes, I was having a bit of joke about my influence on Everton, it was a sarcastic response to David who obviuosly does think I have an influence because he said "Ian, you are the worst apologist on this site by far; I believe it is fans like you that have turned us into a top flight version of Crewe. Everton is a joke from top to bottom ? it needs change at the bottom before it will happen at the top".
I must admit though I was away for the first 4 months of last season when we were on a bad run and then went on a fantastic run when I returned. I put that down to coincidence rather then having an influence but thank you, David, for acknowleging my influence on Everton ? I must just be Everton's lucky charm.
115 Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:53:18
Wayne "Why don't the rich clubs have him" The top jobs in England dont come along very often, Man Utd and Arsenal have had the same manager for years, and he's not going to go to Liverpool for obvious reasons.
The only jobs he could get which might be better for him than Everton is Chelsea, but Roman likes to bring in the very top managers in the world with World Class reputations; Man City still early days, they have only started to make strides the last couple of season and Mancini has done a decent job; and then there's Spurs and, if you believe the rumours, if Redknapp takes the England job Levey will be coming for Moyes. Also for years Moyes has been widly regarded as one of, if not the favourite for the Man Utd job when SAF decides to call it a day.
116 Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:40:21
Also didn't know that 0.02% could have so much power. Based on a turnout of 35,000 at GP, thats some voice those 7 lads have on them!
Seriously though, I wish we could put the early year achievements for the manger to rest once and for all and move on. The standard of football played recently has been generally very poor, regardless of the opposition, and a lack of cash is not a good enough excuse for this.
The club does not need to be backed by a billionaire to go out and play with convicition against the likes of QPR at home and we don't need the manager saying we have no chance against a side before we even take to the field. We have played 7 league games this season and started 3 of them without a recognised striker, even though strikers were fit. This worryingly seems to be becoming a fixed tactic for the manager instead of one forced by injury. I can only hope the strikers we do have get more game time.
A lack of cash also does not explain why we have no attacking coaches on the 1st team staff - I'll be buggered if anyone can find me another top flight professional club like this. If the pro Moyes brigade could maybe answer this one question for me, I would be grateful.
Would also like to hear their oponion on having no attacking coaches - or is coaching not relevant (as I laughably read somewhere on here....)
117 Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:26:42
"Trevor, considering we missed out qualifying for Europe the last day of the season with Rooney in the squad kind of negates your points, doesn't it? The next year we got into the Champions League Qualifiers"
No it doesn't.
It means we didn't qualify for europe but improved - Moyes benefiting from the impact of Rooney!!! - sorry, you're hyper-ventilating if you think otherwise.
Moyes then benefited from the Rooney cash next season - you're distressing yourself for no reason if you believe otherwise.
118 Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:37:58
Have said it somewhere before, for me he is far too defensive a manager for them. You may say that he is being defensive as he has no cash (usual arguement wheeled out) but his history of falling out with pretty much all strikers would make it interesting at least with the likes of VdV, Adebayor, Defoe etc.
Spurs don't need to save money so cannot see them being interested in Moyse, they already have the backing of Lewis' billions.
119 Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:17:40
120 Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:53:49
Just because I don?t share your blinkered, rose-tinted view on Moyes, you arrogantly dismiss my opinions as deluded and nonsense. Moyes is an average manager and the bottom line is in 10 years he has never won a single trophy so what makes him so great?
Yes, 10 years ago, when he first came, we were relegation fodder and he definitely steadied the ship... but since then he and the team have gone stale due to his failure to try different options and styles of playing ? yet, in your opinion, we should allow him to manage Everton without ever questioning his decisions?
Gueye and Vellios have been fit enough to sit on the bench, both of whom are natural attacking players, as Moyes has chosen to play midfielders ? the likes of Felliani and Cahill ? there instead.
You asked who could play at right back instead of Hibbert? Well, Heitinga has played there for the Dutch national team in the past and Coleman is also very capable in that position.
Moyes picks predictable sides, which makes it easier for other mangers to set their teams up against because his tactics mostly consist of defending to the death and hoping to maybe nick a goal with 6 midfielders and no attacking options on the pitch.
Ian, you seem to be very judgmental towards anyone who has a different opinion to you on Moyes, which really says a lot more about you as an individual. Are you an editor of Toffeweb? As you talk about dissecting my post like some sort of expert who I require approval from. I really couldn?t care less about what you think. I was expressing my views, the way I see it, not asking for your approval.
James Heng (#83), do you actually ever watch Hibbert? If he isn?t a liability then what was he doing in the FA Cup Final when he got skinned twice for both of Chelsea?s goals? Hiddink knew that the right flank was our weakness, because of him, also the derby game about 2 seasons ago when Hibbert gave away a penalty against Gerrard after a clumsy tackle, again gave away a penalty.
He has never had international recognition and, as far as I am aware, Everton have never had a bid for him from another club so my Opinions on him, I feel are justified. He is a Championship player at best but still keeps getting picked by Moyes after 10 years of not improving as a player.
121 Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:42:32
Personally I think none of these clubs would even consider having him because he is just too limited. Their fans would simply not accept the style of "football" that he serves up.
5 years ago when we were flirting with Europe, I was unsure as to how Moyes would develop. Now I'm getting more and more convinced that he's not the person to take us forward from where we are.
122 Posted 14/10/2011 at 18:24:08
One group say he's dour, defensive, timid, doesn't make the best of the players he has and we'll never win anything with him and should go.
Others violently disagree saying he's dour, defensive, timid and doesn't make the best of the players he has and we'll never win anything with him and should stay.
123 Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:02:47
Spot on. Absolutely best post on Toffeeweb for a long time.
124 Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:05:46
A large number of fans dont subscribe to Trevor's point of view and actually appreciate Moyes for what he has done for the club despite the resources he has been given by the board.
Still I suppose some people would rather we lost 4-3 every week and got relegated as this would mean we would be watching free-flowing football?
It does seem to me that the vast majority of the footballing world admire our manager for the job he is doing, whilst a myopic minority on ToffeeWeb hate him for everything he does and will never give him any credit whatsoever. I know which group I think are right.
125 Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:10:59
Of the 71 games we have played in European competition in the club 's history, Moyes has been manager for 26. So that 37% of all games.
So that's not bad for the shite manager many of the people on here would tell us he is.
126 Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:35:36
127 Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:54:33
"Moyes's role at EFC should be nothing more than a scout's role or a coach for central defenders as he obviously has some talent in those two areas."
Hence the clean sheets. Sorry mate but even his hallowed defence is leaking goals like the Titanic. Seasons past, we were picking up lots of 1-0 wins. That is where your paragraph was correct.
Problem now is, if you can't keep clean sheets then you don't pick up 3 points for scoring 1 goal.
The back line needs to change. Jags needs "resting" for a few games and let Jonny have go.
128 Posted 14/10/2011 at 20:43:38
I am not going to have a go at Moyes for getting us into Europe in this modern age ? hats off to him for doing so and giving us some memorable nights. However, your comparison of getting into Europe now compared to 20 years ago is, sorry to say, nonsense IMO.
129 Posted 14/10/2011 at 20:50:32
My main worry about Moyes between then and now is his attitude. The guy looks beaten and is rolling out excuses before we play "richer" teams as to why we'll probably lose. I don't want anyone with a losing mentality leading our club. It's just wrong in so many ways.
The David Moyes of today is not the bright, energetic manager we employed 10 years ago. We should thank him for turning us from annual relegation candidates into European contenders, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep him now. I'd rather focus on what he's done the last 3 or 4 years when determining whether he should stay on.
130 Posted 14/10/2011 at 21:39:33
I've lost count of the amount of times i've seen people saying that Moyes oversaw our lowest ever points total, which is complete rubbish. He did oversee our lowest points total under the 3 points for a win system but that is somewhat different. Rather than the lowest total in our 133 year history it was actually the lowest total under a system adopted 30 years ago. Seeing as Moyes has been manager for around a third of that time, and for a number of seasons there were an extra 4 games in the season, the chances of him being in charge for this unwanted stat are actually pretty high.
131 Posted 14/10/2011 at 21:18:56
Everton were many pundits -not to mention the bookies -favourites for the drop.
Moyes startled the football world by qualifying for the champions league WITHOUT the proceeds of the Rooney transfer.
The reason he`s rated so highly amongst his peers is because he broke into what was generally regarded as an inpregnable top four with players like Pistone, Kilbane and Bent . .a remarkable achievement. He did it with the oldest center backs in football, he did it with local local boys like Osman and Hibbert
Is it any wonder Ian Tunstead feels he`s pissing against the wind ?
When people try to deny what`s in the records, whats on DVD and more to the point what we actually witnessed, reason leaves the thread
132 Posted 14/10/2011 at 22:46:48
One other point too about being "guaranteed 8 games if you qualify for Europe"... erm no you aren't. Check the stats lads and you will see that we were only actually guaranteed 2 games when we have qualified under Moyes for the Europa League. This is because we had to go through the preliminary rounds of the competition and only by winning these games can we be sure of any further games. Still, let's not let the facts stand in the way of a chance to slag off Moyes.
133 Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:05:01
Players out of position
Teams packed with midfielders and forwards on the bench
Lost count of the number of times defeated in cup competitions by lower league opposition... Brentford, Bristol Rovers, shrewsbury, Oldham
As for europe... if he showed some balls in home games last season and played two up front we might have beaten the majority of the bottom half of the league which we failed to do due to his tactics-and qualified for Europe.
Worst Manager in the history of the club. FACT.
134 Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:05:27
135 Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:13:01
..Is Mike Walker.
That IS a FACT.
136 Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:15:30
137 Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:23:13
Who was a better manager Kendall 2nd time round or Moyes?
Who was a better manager Kendall 3rd time round or Moyes?
138 Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:34:00
? Kendall 2nd time round
? Moyes over Kendall 3rd time round
Is there a prize?
139 Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:42:26
For me, Moyes is decent ? not great; not shite. I want the best Everton can be: Moyes is not it.
140 Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:53:47
In my time supporting Everton, the worst managers have been Harvey and Walker. It is interesting that you put Walker along side Walter Smith. Walter Smith had a worse deal from his board than David Moyes has ever had. There are similarities with Moyes but Smith was a better manager who has won trophies with poor teams.
Don't denigrate SPL coaches. Neil Lennon has dealt with more pressure than any manager in the Premier League ever has. The standard isn't as high but Smith took a piss-poor Rangers team to the final of the Europa League. Celtic were robbed this year.
Incidentally. I think we'll win tomorrow and I'll be having a few quid on at 8/1.
141 Posted 15/10/2011 at 01:10:06
Here's the thing... you seem to be making all the excuses for Smith that us "apologists" are making for Moyes!
BTW... I'd agree on Harvey & Walker but keep your betting tips to yourself. LOL!
142 Posted 15/10/2011 at 10:13:28
Overall you can argue he has been a very good manager for Everton....but its been all downhill these last few years.
If Moyes can stop moping around, lowering the expectations of the club in the self-serving way he is and do the things he was doing 10 years ago then great, otherwise he should go while we still have a decent group of players for another manager to work with.
143 Posted 15/10/2011 at 12:30:15
144 Posted 15/10/2011 at 12:56:02
To me it is getting old and very boring, I want something new to be done, and so do many,many more. Truth is that will not happen as long as Moyes is manager here. And I think it is sad because I think he has lost his drive and his spark for football. You watch a press conference and you can see that he needs a long break to charge his batteries.
It is plain for all to see, the money troubles has affected Moyes to the point that there is hardly nothing left. That is a damn shame. I want a hungry David like when he first came into this club saying this is the People's Club, his smile was rubbing off; it no longer is to be seen!
145 Posted 15/10/2011 at 17:16:07
Boring, Cowardice, Negative, Dour, defeatist etc I could go on.
146 Posted 16/10/2011 at 00:54:54
The only way a team got in the old UEFA Cup through a league position was to finish 2nd or 3rd.
Maybe 4th if ta team above you won the Cup and went in the Cup Winners Cup.
You certainly didn't get in by finishing 5th or worse, like it is today.
Going by the old rules, Moyes would probably never have taken us into Europe.
Harry Catterick led us to two European Cup campaigns in the days when a team actually had to win the league title to compete.
That in itself dwarfs anything Moyes has done for us in terms of European qualification.
Then there is Howard.
Who actually won a European competition and had assembled a team capable of winning the big one only for events to overtake him and the club.
To say that Moyes is our most successful manager in Europe ever is to underline the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics".
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