Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

How do you rate Moyes and his tactics this season?

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I ask this: Are you pleased with our tactics and how we have played for the last two games?

Reason I ask is because I think David Moyes has made us look poorer than we are. For example, we have played Cahill upfront on his own, which is not working. Stracqualursi with his height and strength is a better alternative, but he is left on the bench.

Many fans have voiced their anger at the referee, when in reality it is up to Everton to score the goals, not the referee. I think the problems lie in us not using Stracqualursi and Drenthe enough. They both clearly have something we need ? as do Barkley and Gueye by the way.

Defensively David Moyes is very good, but our defensive play has failed us this season. Offensively we seem to have nothing to offer, but is that true?

We play defensive 4-5-1 because Moyes thinks that is the best way. Maybe before this season we could play 4-5-1 and get results; however, this season shows us that we are lacking in midfield.

We lack players like Pienaar and Arteta who gives us precise passing going forward. We no longer have them, and therefore we need to adjust our tactics to the strength of our current squad. I firmly belive David Moyes needs to change things around until we can find out what works.

At the moment, we are heading into a downward spiral because we have not found out who is our current best eleven. The past season we had Beckford, Yakubu, and Arteta. A few other players have gone as well and we need to figure out a new side as we can not score and we fail to create enough quality chances.

I want to know how many of you feel that the 4-5-1 formation isn't working like it used to and that we need to change things a bit?

Jimmy Sorheim, Stavanger, Norway     Posted 06/10/2011 at

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Pat Finegan
1   Posted 06/10/2011 at 17:26:28

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Tactics are meaningless. The only thing that matters is the result. Right now, we aren't getting results so I'm a bit frustrated. It is worth noting that one of the last two was Sitteh away and we were given an unnecessary red in the other.

I don't agree with the Stracqualursi point. Dude doesn't even speak English yet so how can we say he is a better option than Cahill.
Kevin Connor
2   Posted 06/10/2011 at 17:43:28

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Of course tactics matter! If you put everyone behind the ball, you wont win games.

Moyes's teams lack pace. We went to city the other week with an attacking midfielder playing upfront by himself when we had 3 forwards on the bench. He did the exact same thing at West Ham last year. He picks negative teams.

Although I think Drenthe has been average when I have seen him, he offers us pace, which is what we need. Barkley as well is not scared to run at players and is positive with the ball but they are both left on the bench. I think his tactics have cost us over the years, not just this year.
Steve Sweeney
3   Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:46:44

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Does Moyes know his best team/formation?

Why is it that whenever we have a full squad ? no injuries, no suspensions ? Moyes cannot pick an attacking line up?
To play Cahill as a lone striker is ridiculous. But heyho IMWT.

What a joke.
Kevin Hudson
4   Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:45:56

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You're suggesting that we throw in the untested, inexperienced, shot-in-the-dark options. I agree that we have to find out about these players - and only playing time can ascertain that, but it's the geological pace of Moyes's caution that frustrates people so much.

I can understand that, but I don't share your pessimistic "downward spiral," fatality either.
John Ford
5   Posted 06/10/2011 at 18:54:00

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Moyes has used the one up front option for much of the last ten years. He's proven to be successful with it. When you have players like Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Cahill and Donovan zipping around it keeps the attacking options open.

The question about tactics is a red herring, but the OP is probably right to suggest we're not operating quite as effectively now. The reason? we haven't replaced those fine players with others of similar quality.

I firmly believe our problems are directly related to our inability to sign good players. The whole 4-4-2/4-5-1 debate is academic. In any case, Moyes has proved that loading up the midfield can be as effective an attacking mode as with two up front. Moving to 4-4-2 as a regular option is no more likely to win us games AT THE MOMENT as 4-5-1 ? we don't have the players to do it.
Dave Lynch
6   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:25:50

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Pat @ 1.
Tevez doesn't speak a word of English and he does ok when on the field.
Steven Bennett
7   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:23:19

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Pat Finegan@1. Tevez doesn't speak English! Not the same player I know but you get my point.

How can you say Tactics are meaningless. Tactics are what win you games. If there were no tactics, what's the point of having a manager? You may as well just have a coach.

As regards to Moyes's negative tactics, I don't believe he knows how to set up the team to attack or draw out defences or counter-attack. I think I read on here that 4 out of 5 of our coaches are defenders with the other one being a midfielder ? Speaks volumes to me!.
Andy Crooks
8   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:35:43

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Jimmy, it's not working. We have been devoid of pace and guile. Drenthe offers pace so I hope that he will eventually settle into a line up that gives a bit of variety. I look at the game against Chelsea and feel that Drenthe and Barclay are the only players we have who can hurt them. At least one must start.
Ian Spence
9   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:42:32

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Kevin 4, how do players become tested if they don't play? Barkley is young, granted, but looks a class act, so why not play him? We didn't wanna rush Rooney into things and look what happened, he started the minute he went to Utd. Moyes has no balls and in my opinion no clue either.
Aidy Dews
10   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:22:09

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Moyesy knows his best formation, that's why he plays it at every opportunity, 4-5-1!

And for me, he knows what players are definitely in his best 11 pretty much as well. IMO: Howard; Neville, Jags, Distin, Baines; Felli, Rodwell (maybe?), Coleman, Cahill, Osman; Saha.

For me, not just this season, but for the majority of last season as well, our play as been boring and shit due to not having enough pace and technical ability in the final third and being too defensive in having everyone behind the ball and in our own half when not in possession; it stiffles our attack cos we're so deep and don't have the pace to break or the technical ability to play our way into the final third to create goalscoring chances.

Now this season, with the likes of Drenthe, Barkley, Gueye and Vellios, he has players with pace and technical ability that would endorse our play IMO but most of them are deemed too inexperienced by Moyesy and he won't risk playing a couple of, if not all of them.

I'd just love for Moyesy to grow the balls to start playing the likes of Drenthe, Barkley and Gueye from the start and in a 4-2-3-1 formation as I think we do have the players suited to that system but he's too cautious with going with youth and prefers to go with experience more often than not.

Me personally, I'd go with Howard in goal, Coleman, Jags, Distin and Baines at the back, Felli and Rodders ahead of those, Gueye (rs), Barkley (c) and Drenthe (ls) ahead of them 2 and interchanging positions and then either one of Vellios, Stracqualursi and Saha up top, preferably one of the first 2!.

For me we'd have an experienced triangle of Howard, Jags and Distin at the back and then the rest of the team would be filled with young, exuberant, energetic, quick and technically sound players that I think would produce some good attacking football.
Tony Hart
11   Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:01:37

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I'm concerned that Moyes seems to be lining up too defensively and not taking the game against then opposition. Our results against stronger sides last year were based on pressing high (e.g Man City at home) and forcing sides to kick long then keeping the ball on the ground. 2 seasons ago we played some of our best flowing football without Arteta but did have Pienaar and Donovan and that was with no recognised striker and used Feillaini or Cahill (who's lost form and appetite). We need to play our game and retain possesion
Pat Finegan
12   Posted 06/10/2011 at 19:48:50

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I phrased that poorly. Tactics matter but it doesn't matter which tactics you employ as long as you score more goals that the other team. It's more important to get a result than to look good doing it. John @5 said it better than I did.

I think tactics are an easy thing to criticize because that's one of the few things we, the supporters, get to see. We don't know if someone showed up a few minutes late, had a little cough, or if a couple of the guys don't get along off the pitch. I don't mean to suggest anything and start rumors. I just don't think we are in a position to criticize tactics because there are so many other factors that go into team selection.

I remember hearing somewhere that Tevez speaks English but isn't comfortable speaking to reporters in anything but Spanish. Seeing how reporters tend to take things out of context, you can't blame the guy.
Terry Downes
13   Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:31:34

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Shit, shit and shit; no other top class manager has sent a team out without a striker but three on the bench.

All Moyes ever does is safety first... wouldn't it be nice just for once to start with two strikers at home??
Ian Bennett
14   Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:28:49

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Defensively we are okay. Hmm - not sure I agree with that statement.

We can't keep clean sheet, looks like we concede at least 1 or 2 a match, when we can't score goals at the other end. Other than that, we are fine (as they say).

It is a side that is in transition, a side that will win one week, draw the next and lose the next. It has some top quality, but it has some average players. It lacks pace and a cutting edge that will turn 1 point into 3. It is average and it will finish mid-table.

It needs 3 to 4 new faces that will make a difference. It needs money to be spent wisely.
Wayne Smyth
15   Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:25:12

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Strangely I thought the game against the RS, moyes got his line-up & formation spot on. Playing cahill as a backup to a proper striker is the way to go

I might've been tempted to put drenthe on from the start as he clearly has something we lack in terms of creative ability, directness and pace, which would have been useful against them. Sadly the ref put pay to any idea of us doing any more than parking the bus.

Against City, I'd agree 100% that Moyes made us look worse than we are and we went there with no plan to do anything but defend.

I've always thought that a good manager looks at the players at his disposal and fits the tactics around that. Moyes seems to be keen on fitting the player to a 4-5-1, regardless of how well they fit.

Thus, we have players like Rodwell or Bily shoved out on the wing, when they clearly are not wingers. Only Drenthe and Coleman play well in that role.

I actually think the players we have would suit a 4-3-3, with a main striker, 2 just in behind from Bily, Drenthe, Barkley, then a central midfield trio from Rodwell, Fellaini, Osman, Cahill, and a standard back 4.

Both Barkley and Drenthe have shown themselves to be liabilities defending or in the defensive part of the pitch due to their lack of PL experience, which is why giving them an attacking role not only fits with their abilities, but also prevents them giving away goals.
Kevin Hudson
16   Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:14:23

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Ian,

Harsh to say that Moyes has "no clue."

It often takes time with new & fringe players. If he throws them all in at the deep-end & it doesn't immediately pan out - not only will he be open to the charge of exposing them too soon, but he alienates other players.

Equally, there are those who (with some justification) accuse him of having his favourites - a charge one could, however, level at any manager.

The clamour for Barkley concerns me. That on the basis of nascent potential, he should instantly command a regular starting berth, seems naive, fickle & quick-fix. Moyes takes the long view - Hibbert, Osman & Rodwell are testament to this strategy.
Jimmy Sorheim
17   Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:17:03

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Straqualursi has been here since august and I belive he has gatered enough match practice with his reserve game and cup game plus his substitutions. I would argue he is as close to full fitness as Drenthe, and it doesnt help to leave him rotting on the bench does it?
Strange thing is this, Moyes prefers putting in Saha who has been injured and just recently declarted fit plus he hasnt even played one game for the reserves. What does that tell you? That tells you that Saha is his number one, no matter how unfit he is, he gets to play either way. It is unfair to Straq. and it seems to me that key players such as Saha or Cahill has to be ijured before Straqualursi can even dream of playing. Same thing last year with Louis, he was out of form and gave us nothing until January, in the meantime Yakubu had a great game against the reds and he scored against stoke. I think Moyes is predictable as this seems to happen each year, he cant cope with a full squad, he needs injuries to play the right players. I know that sounds a bit weird but it is true, that just shows that he copes better under pressure I belive. In a fully fit squad he reverts to his prefered 4-5-1 wich I fully belive doesnt fit us this season only because we have lost Arteta, Pienaar, Beckford and Yakubu.
I can tell you this, it will take a LONG time before this new team can settle in to this formation. I agree with Wayne Smith in that Moyes tries to fit the players into this formation, instead of playing the natural formation that this squad can do. I belive 4-3-2-1 or 4-1-2-1-2 is more natural than the dependance on wingers in 4-5-1, as we have no good wingers at the moment.l W e have lots of central midfielders therefore 4-5-1 does not fit us anymore!
Kunal Desai
18   Posted 06/10/2011 at 20:54:40

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4-5-1 for the last seven years now, it's boring and predictable. Infact is it 4-5-1 any longer??. The point is Moyes hasn't evolved and changed his game over time. It's safety first, generally hard to beat but once we go a goal down then there isn't a plan B in place other than to bring strikers on for the last 10 minutes when it's generally all too late.

Perhaps Moyes sees that gaining a point against any opposition is more important than risk loosing a point for the sake of three.
Pat Finegan
19   Posted 06/10/2011 at 21:46:34

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I really don't think there is such thing as an "attacking formation" because you don't have a shape going forward. Football is a shape vs. movement game. The team without the ball tries to maintain their shape while the team with the ball tries to break the shape down. Attacking is more about the balance of qualities in the 8 forward going players than it is about where they fit in the defensive shape.
Martin Mason
20   Posted 06/10/2011 at 22:27:34

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Everton play 4-5-1 because they aren't strong enough to play a genuine 4-4-2 which needs good midfield players. But don't knock 4-5-1 because everybody plays it and it can be the most attacking of all formations when played well because it is also 4-3-3 if you have good wide midfielders and then even more positive if you have good overlapping full backs. Remember the glorious Everton team that won the title in 1970? we played 4-5-1 most of the time with Royle as the lone forward. Negative?

Also, please give Moyes some credit, he knows far more about selection and tactics than anybody on here and he sees the players all week. He picks Cahill because Tim Cahill is a bloody good forward and Vellios and Straqualursi are potentially good and there is a difference.

Virtually every club in the EPL plays 4-5-1 and virtually every club has to play patient sideways and backward ball at times to try to create opportunities against well organised defences. Gung-ho attacking soccer died about the time the EPL started and those who practice it now are out of the EPL like Holloway's Blackpool and like De Matteo's West Brom would have been if he hadn't been fired.

We aren't Chelsea, we aren't Man United. We are a small club with very limited resources and 4-5-1 is essential for us. We have made it work very well at times but it takes a very special type of forward to make it work well (like Marcus Bent). Were struggling to find that man now. It isn't Saha unfortunately brilliant though he is.

Everton 4-4-2 and attacking good sides? Get real please, we would be on the receiving end of a hiding against most sides away and manyat home.
Ian Edwards
21   Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:10:15

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Martin

451 is only any good when you have pace in midfield to enable players to get up in support.

without pace in midfield we must play 442 which gives us options up front.

451 at home causes us to struggle to create. Wigan? We had to put forwards on to chase the game.

Why do you think we failed to beat 7 of last seasons bottom 10 at home? They defended and we couldnt break them down with the negative tactics.

The nig teams came out to play and left gaps to exploit.
Denis Richardson
22   Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:01:12

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Martin, agree with some of your points but why can't we play 442 against weaker teams, espectially at home?

Think the main point is that regardless of the opposition, we play the same defensive conservative game. Remember West Ham last year, QPR this year? To name just a few.

I could stomach the defensive play away to the top sides if we showed some positivity against the none top sides - unfortunately the manager only has one trick IMO.
Derek Thomas
23   Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:12:36

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It all comes down to ...It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it.

451 ( can ) becomes 433 and even 244 when you attack in numbers...But that's all these 451's are; labels, the numbers game. You have 10 so how many ways can you permutate them...It means nothing

How you send those 10 out to play. the set up, the formation, the sq pegs in round holes...or even in Moyeses case actually KNOWING what your best 11 is.

And for all those who blat on about 1970 being 451, bollocks it was the formation of the time 433, The Holy Trinity ring a bell with any one...3 in the middle, but with actual wingers who could at times drop back.

When Whittle played at the end of the season it did morph into 451 at times. I changed and evolved as the dictates of the game demanded.

But yes Tactics matter and Moyeses, by enlarge are lacking.
Kevin Freaney
24   Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:31:54

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Remember the WBA game last year. Those guys were struggling, hadn't won or scored in ages, and Moyes brings out his defensive posture.

It's these decisions that make a number of people question Moyes ability to manage. Don't get me wrong, he's done a great job at the club and I admire him for it, but his inability to adapt will cost us soon.
Ian Tunstead
25   Posted 06/10/2011 at 23:27:49

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Tactics are over rated. It's 90% who has the best players on the pitch and partially who wants it most on the day. The other 10% is tactics which is very simple, play your best players in their best positions whilst trying to keep a balance to the side. Most of the time the better side will win because they have the better players, not because of the tactics.

But If Moyes tactics are so bad, why does he finish higher up the table than most teams who have spent tens of millions more than him?

The players want to play for him and give him 100%, that is worth far more than tactics.
Steven Pendleton
26   Posted 07/10/2011 at 00:41:16

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Ian @23

'play your best players in their best positions whilst trying to keep a balance to the side.'

Exactly what Moyes doesn't do!!!!!!!! He plays his players out of position and the only balance he employs for our side is a defensive one. Oh yeh, but when we go one goal down he makes an attacking change. Fuckin frustrating to watch.
Ian Tunstead
27   Posted 07/10/2011 at 01:11:12

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Steven, he playes his best players, most of the time but he only plays his players out of position some of the time if a) we have injuries or players are not match fit, ie up front, or b) we don't have a player for a particular position, for example against QPR Rodwell and Barkley had to play out of position because we literally didn't have any wide players.

If he was given money, he could go out and buy some. Incidentally he has brought one in on loan because he can afford to buy one, but he hasn't been match fit because he didn't have a pre-season.

Exactly, there is a defensive balance to the side because our better players are defenders because defensive players are generally cheaper than attacking players, so he has to set his team up defensive and play to their stengths, then when we are losing he can bring on his untried, unfit attackers against the tired legs of the opposition. Smart move on Moyes part, that is why he has the best point-per-pound ratio in the league.
Paul Holmes
28   Posted 07/10/2011 at 01:44:51

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We need to play the players we have in their best positions. Coleman needs to play RB (he must be better than Neville and Hibbert ). We need a right-sided player with pace (Osman and Bily are not good enough). The rest of the players are not too bad, throw in the young players coming through (Barkley, Vellios) and things should improve. .
Brian Keating
29   Posted 07/10/2011 at 04:51:48

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4-4-2 v 4-5-1 is a pointless debate. Very few teams play a traditional 4-4-2 anymore. Giovanni Trappatoni is constantly being slaughtered by the media here in Ireland for playing a 4-4-2 because it's too defensive.

Football has moved on from 4-4-2. Barcelona play the best football in the world right now, some of the best football ever seen in fact, and they play a 4-2-3-1. Arsenal, Chelsea, Real Madrid etc. ditto.

It annoys me as well when people talk about playing different formations home and away, the best teams play their best players in their best formation with no regard for home and away.

For the record I believe Moyes actually sets his team up as a 4-2-3-1. When we had Pienaar, Arteta and Donovan a couple of seasons ago it worked like a charm.

It could work again with:

Rodwell and Fellaini as the 2 midfielders.

Drenthe, Cahill and Coleman as the 3 attacking mids/wingers.

Saha up front.

I'd put money on seeing exactly this in the next game, except possibly with Osman in for Drenthe or Coleman.
Andy Codling
30   Posted 07/10/2011 at 07:16:49

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10 years on and he has no pace in his team, cant keep clean sheets, a contempt for forwards, not one attackminded coach on the backroom staff, awful park the bus 1 ( if your lucky) up front tactics, earns 75 grand a week and has no pressure on him to succeed , if he achieves hes a genius and if he doesnt hes working under financial restraint, what a win win it is for him. The only manager who could be one nil down and take of his only forward. Supposed experts keep saying hes the next Man Utd manager ( what a laugh), so the sooner he fucks off the better, as far as Im concerned.
Eric Myles
31   Posted 07/10/2011 at 07:41:02

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I don't think you can say that the lack of goals problems lie in us not using Stracqualursi, Drenthe, Barkley or Gueye enough as last season we didn't have them (except Gueye).

I think the root cause of the problem lies elsewhere.
Dave Vickers
32   Posted 07/10/2011 at 08:42:09

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4 premier league goals in open play, in 540 minutes of football, 3 of them against the mighty Wigan says it all for me, boring ,negative shite football. The sooner we can get the likes of Sheedy involved coaching the 1st team the better. I would much rather see Barkley and Drenthe than Arteta and Pienaar, they will give us some end product, but I guess they are far to ambitious for Moyes and Round. Velios is a must up front, give him a good run in the side.
Andrew Ellams
33   Posted 07/10/2011 at 09:53:17

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With fixtures we have coming up, there is every chance we could end up losing 5 league matches on the bounce. How would Moyes react to a situation like that? I'd like to think that he would throw caution to the wind to some degree and come out fighting. Who thinks he would?
Laurie Hartley
34   Posted 07/10/2011 at 10:53:35

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Andrew @ 33, I agree we are looking down the barrel of 5 defeats on the bounce. We are in serious danger of being carved up by Chelsea and Man Utd. That being the case I think DM should throw caution to the wind now and go to Stamford Bridge with the intent of going at them hell for leather.

Howard
Hibbert, Heitinga, Distin, Baines
Coleman, Fellaini, Rodwell, Drenthe
Vellios, Saha,
Nick Entwistle
35   Posted 07/10/2011 at 11:45:07

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I like your two upfront Laurie, but would Fellaini and Rodwell work as a central pairing? Who's going to run the show?Admittedly running the show is a big ask for any Everton player against Chelsea.

Anyways, just realised its International weekend, couldn't give a dam. Was looking forward to the Chelsea match.
Andrew Ellams
36   Posted 07/10/2011 at 12:08:13

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Laurie, I would be tempted to try Bily behind Saha and keep Vellios as an impact sub for now with Cahill on the bench too.
David Holroyd
37   Posted 07/10/2011 at 12:39:18

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We dont look like keeping a cleen sheet but cannot go gung ho at Chelsea. Drenthe must be fit by now ? get him in the side, it will at least give them something to think about. Barkley must start games if he is as good as everyone thinks if your good enough
James Morgan
38   Posted 07/10/2011 at 11:01:32

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Wouldn't it be great to see something like:

Howard
Coleman Jagielka Distin Baines
Gueye Fellaini Drenthe
Barkley
Saha

Bench: Mucha, Heitinga, Rodwell, Cahill, Vellios, Stracqualursi.

Obviously that's dreaming but it would be great to see a team such an attacking team with a solid defensive spine. Granted, Coleman needs to learn more about the RB position and Barkley is still raw but getting games is the best way to develop. Injuries would see us still have the likes of Osman, Hibbert and Bilyaletdinov ready to step in. Anichebe would be sold.

Then I would wake up and have my corn flakes!
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
39   Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:12:34

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James,

I do like what is taking shape with your team... but, if you're quick and can pick another starter and another sub, I won't tell anyone you can't count.
Jimmy Sorheim
40   Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:36:13

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Some say that it is not about the formation. That is ridiculous for this reason, you play with 1-7-3 for example what happens, you get rolled over with goals. It is a balance of course, form also has a big part of a formation working, but in the whole we just dont have any wquality wingers to justify 4-5-1. We need to throw our chips all in the attack if only against the weaker or similar teams.

It has been SOOOOO LOOOOOOONG since I can remeber us playing 4-4-2 with two genuine real strikers under Moyes, it is becoming a myth to the attackers that 442 or 433 even exist anymore. I mean how do Vellios and Straqulursi even know how to play 442 in the last 5-10 minutes of matches if they dont get to practice in whole games at it? Of course Vellios will stagnate now unless he is given more playing time, perhaps 45 mintues would be a start. I have a feeling Straqualursi has a lot more to offer right now than Cahill and Saha for example. With Saha you get to see when he misses and puts his hands on top of his head as he always does, It is getting frustrating and as Laurie nr.34 said we are looking concecutive losses like last year becuse we have Chelsea and Manureanus in the next few games so it looks very bad indeed, and I think fewer people will want to turn up as thyese defnsive formations at home are more boring than watching paint dry or watching a dog take a crap.
Anto Byrne
41   Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:39:17

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Cant see us winning any of the next few games. Moyes has managed to break all records in his reign, fewest goals in a season, thrashed by arsenal home and away, most draws in a season.least amount of wins in a premiers season, I can understand why we are so frustrated watching this team, its dull and boring, football is played sideways or backwards. Other than Saha i cant recall one long shot on target in any of the games. I would happy if Moyesie moved on to another club with money so he can show what he can do. I just want to see some attacking football with some flair and excitement.
Jimmy Kelly
42   Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:41:44

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Have people seen a different Gueye to the one i've been watching?

The lad looks a decent player but I wouldn't be having him down as the next big thing from what i've seen.
Barkley is another who genuinely looks like he could be a world-beater but not just yet.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get run outs but i think it's asking an awful lot for them to be regular first team players and making an impact.
Brian Waring
43   Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:28:18

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Moyes and tactics shouldn't really be used togethor.
Ryan Holroyd
44   Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:25:36

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Brian #29

Barcelona have been playing with TWO centre halfs (one of them a converted defensive midfielder) and a pletoria of midfielders.

They don't even play a forward in the traditional sense rather Messi as a 'false' number 9.

I agree with others about formations and the like. We need to be much more flexible. This obesssion the English football public have with 4-4-2 is crazy.
Andrew Ellams
45   Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:29:36

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Ryan, I think David Villa would probably call himself a forward in the traditional sense
James Morgan
46   Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:53:28

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Well spotted, Michael.
To be fair I was at work at the time and multi tasking so you can let me off on that one. Take your pick for the missing sub!
James Morgan
47   Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:57:05

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...And the starter would perhaps be Vellios!
Richard Dodd
48   Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:53:59

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Have you noticed that whenever we lose a derby we ALWAYS have a scapegoat ? usually the ref ? to assuage our disappointment. Wouldn't it be great if, just once in a while, we beat the buggers AGAINST ALL THE ODDS.
David Hallwood
49   Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:35:23

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The Moyes tactic that drives me to distraction, is the hoof from Howard to no one in particular, and then press the second ball. 4-5-1 can only work by working through the midfield.
Gavin Ramejkis
50   Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:46:45

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Doddy its really hard to beat 12 men

Kevin #16 the trouble with Moyes long view could also be seen as a weakness; sentiment has a value, sentimentality (which is different) is a weakness in this workplace. When a player is out of form, still injured, not performing or simply coming to the end of their game they need to be dropped.
Brian Swift
51   Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:18:01

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The main problem with Everton is not goals, we haven't been able to keep clean sheets since Lescott left. Even with two defensive midfield players.
Ian McDowell
52   Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:37:55

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Brian you are right I have been saying this for a while now we are conceding far too many soft goals.

This has been going like you say since Lescott left. Up until 2009 we were always difficult to beat, then in 2009/2010 season after our traditional bad start we had a great end to the season. Then we were tipped by many for top 4 the next season but a bad start again and sloppy goals cost us. Everton used to be very hard to beat we would only need to score 1/2 goals to win. Over the last few years most of our 1-0/2-1 wins have turned to draws.
Jimmy Sorheim
53   Posted 07/10/2011 at 22:07:13

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Number 51 is right. We have suffered ever since Lescott and Yobo no longer played for us. We now lack in defence, Midfield and it is showing.

I used to be positive about Everton before every season but now we are lost, we just dont have the right players to play 4-5-1 anymore. How long will it take before Moyes does something about that? Either buys in January or changes the team tactics around?

I am pleased at what has been done in the past but I am not pleased about what IS being done now.
To me it seems that Moyes has given up on winning, it is shameful and I for one think that this club stands for much more than overly defensive 4-5-1 for 38 matches each season.

I actually miss Howard Kendall, only because Moyes has lost his passion to do well with this club! His words after Man City made me angry because I really feel we could have fielded a much more aggresive team.
Ryan Holroyd
54   Posted 07/10/2011 at 22:19:23

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Andrew #45

Villa has been playing wide left tho.

And that's kind of my point. Modern teams are now flexible in their approach.

Not two lines of four and two forwards.
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:33:52

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Brian, I still think a lack of goals is an obvious flaw, if you don't score you can't possibly win a game; not conceding will only ever get you a draw if you can't score.

How many times have Everton taken the lead in a game in recent memory? Far too many times we concede silly goals and then sit on the edges of our seat desperate for an equaliser, hoping to get a draw instead of being entertained taking a lead and keeping it or even putting some distance between us and our opposition by scoring again.
Kevin Freaney
56   Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:09:32

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Kenwright's and Moyes's support for each other worries me a bit. Does Moyes feel that he'll always have the support of Bill? Does he feel that he's unsackable? Does he care anymore?

Perhaps he's willing to go for the mid-table safe defensive posture and pick up his wage every month rather than have to face an actual challenge.

That's the only thing I can think of. I mean, any other person when faced with the fact, week-in & week-out, that their tactics are obvious to the opposition and not working, would surely change them?

Anyway, back to my original question. Shouldn't Moyes be pressurising Bill for signings and shouldn't Bill be pressurising Davey for results ? rather than patting each other on the back after another 1-0 loss we could have possibly won... if we had money?
Andrew Clare
57   Posted 08/10/2011 at 08:17:26

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I don't like Moyes's tactics ? he is too negative. If you don't ask the question, you don't get an answer; similarly, if you don't attack, you don't score goals.

If a defensive line-up is played, it just invites the other team to constantly attack, with the result that eventually they are likely to score. Sometimes, Moyes seems to be almost pleased that we lasted nearly 90 minutes before conceding a goal ? what's the point if you lose? You might as well attack and lose ? at least you have tried to win the game!

That paragraph above sums up Everton's play. 4-5-1 is absolutely fine if the players are encouraged to attack. I believe we have good players who can hold their own against most teams in this league but they must play attacking football ? which they are all capable of doing.

From Howard forward, everyone should be looking to keep possession; no hoofing, no kicking the ball up in the air to space, the ball should always be played to feet. Howard, Hibbert and Jagielka are the worst offenders, it must be cut out.

Other teams in Europe have won titles on a shoestring because they have a progressive positive-minded manger so why can't we? The answer is Moyes ? he always seems to convey a feeling of negativity in my mind. One gets the feeling that he is thinking 'well they have spent millions on their players so what chance have we got?' He then passes this sentiment over to the players who spend 90-odd minutes believing that they have no chance against team like City because they have spent a fortune on players and we haven't!

I want a motivator as well as a sophisticated tactician in charge at Goodison. We can do it with the right man. COYB!
Wayne Smyth
58   Posted 08/10/2011 at 09:19:32

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I'm surprised Moyes doesn't employ a top quality attacking coach to supplement his backroom staff. It does seem we have a preponderance of defenders in the ranks, which can't be doing anything for our attacking play.

The problem with playing 4-5-1 is that the 5 in midfield who are either midfielders or defenders naturally will want to drop to the position they are used to. Thus, if Neville is the holding player, you often see him in line with the back 4.

The upshot is that the striker ends up stranded 40 yards from the nearest Everton player far too often and the ball comes back or our attacks are too pedestrian.
Jimmy Sorheim
59   Posted 09/10/2011 at 01:19:09

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Agree, Andrew 57..
It is so sad,after so many years with Moyes to see us fail in every aspect of the game. We dont create we dont score and I feel it is just time for Moyes to go. Nothing bad about him, I just think he has been worn out.
I feel sad going forward as Kenwright will not fire Moyes and Moyes likes his money.
I have seen other clubs sell their stars and they suffer for it, but we dont replace them so that is part of the problem.
As we know we will struggle badly if we dont get anybody in who can replace our ex-stars.

I feel like watching Everton play now feels like watching a funeral. How sad is that!!!
Susong Hermawan
60   Posted 09/10/2011 at 04:11:04

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Agree @57.. Wake up Moyes.. COYB!
Robbie Shields
61   Posted 09/10/2011 at 05:07:27

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Andrew #57, great post, you should contribute more of your thoughts on here more often. I'm sick to death of supporters and Moyes churning out this "we can't compete with City, United, Chelsea because their teams cost X or Y million", it's bollocks.
Let us assume for a minute we had just got promoted with some garbage players, Moyes was handed a war chest and spent it as follows on a mixture of young talent and experience.

$10 million on Howard
$10 million on Coleman
$25 million on Baines
$20 million on Jagielka
$5 million on Distin
$20 million on Rodwell
$25 million on Barkley
$10 million on Drenthe
$20 million on Fellaini
$10 million os Saha
$10 million on Cahill

Now those figures aren't too far away from current market value in my opinion, so Moyes spends $165 million and puts that team out, what would everyone expect?????????? What would (should) Moyes attitude be??????

BTW, my iPad is set up for dollars, but all the above is in GBP ;)

Would it be, "oh we can't compete with City etc. Etc."
Or
" We've spent $165 million on some of the best players in the EPL, we can win the league with this lot, attack, attack, attack"

Talent and money are NOT the same.
Andy Crooks
62   Posted 09/10/2011 at 13:22:20

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Excellent points from Andrew and Robbie. Our squad lacks depth and I can understand that hurting us at some stage. It, doesn't explain our mainly poor performances so far this season, though. Our strongest team has good players and our results simply don't reflect this.
Steavey Buckley
63   Posted 09/10/2011 at 22:05:23

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Moyes tactics always appear lopsided. He favours Coleman on the right, but no one on the left. And the opposition just have to look out for Baines going down the left, to be given the first opportunity to knock a ball down their right hand side when Baines is out of position when Everton have lost possession.
Brendan McLaughlin
64   Posted 09/10/2011 at 22:10:33

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Robbie #61
Ten million (whatever) for Coleman? I have a nice wee motor you might be interested in....of course Andy lives a bit closer so maybe ....
Robbie Shields
65   Posted 10/10/2011 at 02:49:26

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Brendan mate, I agree that $10 million for Coleman is a bit steep, but there were rumours going around in the summer that DogLeish was trying to get him for that. $5 million may be more realistic.
Jimmy Kelly
66   Posted 10/10/2011 at 16:24:01

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Robbie, if we had spent £165m on the best players in the league then yes, I would expect us to attack and beat most teams. We haven't though!

Your valuations, in all honesty, are probably around £60/70m over the top. That's quite a difference.

There's also the fact that while a player may be worth a certain amount of money - let's say £14m is Jagielka's market value -it's not the same as having spent that money. If we had £14m to spend then we may well have spent it on an attacking player rather than a centre half.
Robbie Shields
67   Posted 12/10/2011 at 07:43:59

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Jimmy, if we didn't have Jagielka and needed to buy him then he'd cost us around $14 million now as an established England International and wanted by Arsenal etc. etc.

The point I am trying to make is, this team IS worth a LOT of money and IF we had to buy them on the open market they WOULD cost something around that the values I proposed, indeed many of the players have been linked with moves away from Goodison for the values stated. Therefore the values are realistic, assuming the players clubs were prepared to sell reluctantly.

Funnily enough, the next day I posted my initial thoughts Leighton Baines comes out and says pretty much exactly the same thing, clever lad that Leighton you know, must read ToffeeWeb!!!!
Kieran OSullivan
68   Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:12:13

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I have long wondered why Moyes doesnt use Heitinga, doesn't he play for the dutch national team at right back (or at least has in the past). I am not a huge fan of Hibbert or Neville in the right back position. Why doesn't moyes use Heitinga in this position........ I'm also not that confident that Osman can play a consistent 90 minutes to have him on the park the hole game.
My prefered line up would be -

Howard
Heitinga, Jagielka, Distin, Baines
Coleman, Felliani, Cahill, Drenthe
Saha, (Vellios or Argentian dude)

(would also like to see Bily in the attacking midfield position behind the striker, i believe that is his prefered position and in the past when he has found himself in the middle he looks threatening)

And also bring on these promising young guys like Barkley and Gueye more often they provide pace and enthusiasm plus the other teams no very little about there style of play.

Overall the team has to play a positive attacking style not a defensive hopeful style
Vijay Badhan
69   Posted 12/10/2011 at 20:13:59

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Moyes's role at EFC should be nothing more than a scout's role or a coach for central defenders as he obviously has some talent in those two areas.

As a manager, he has not got a clue which he has proved time after time.

We have good young players like Barkley, Rodwell, Gueye & Vellios but ? instead of giving them the opportunity to shine ? he always picks shite players like Osman and Hibbert and Neville who, as far as I am concerned, have never been good enough. Osman is too physically weak and shoots like a pansy, Hibbert just runs up and down like a headless chicken throwing himself into badly timed tackles and he fills me with fear every time he is on the pitch.

Why can't Moyes try something different instead of the same predictable average players who have already failed in his 10 year reign to achieve anything? When will he realise that his negative attitude and team selection are what is really the problem with this great club and the Evertonians that except the "They have spent more money than us" excuse that he reels out every week in his tedious match interviews are just as much to blame.

Moyes is not the Everton saviour that most people assume he is but the downfall of our club along with his bum chum BK. Why is Anichebe still at the club after years of doing nothing? Instead of getting rid, Moyes flogs Beckford and gives Anichebe a new contract! That to me shows how clueless he really is. The day he leaves EFC, I will throw a party.
Ian Tunstead
70   Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:17:53

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Some shit arguments on here, especially Mr Shields. I could easily name 6 or 7 other teams with their expected values and it would still work out more expensive than what he values our team at.

The values set for our players are way over the top but even so Modric had £40m bid for him by Chelsea our best midfielder only went for £10m, so i'll do my own similar valuations of the Spurs midfield to compare with Mr Shields's version of our midfield.

Van der Vart £30m
Bale £40m
Modric £40m
Lennon £25

Do you still think we should be doing better than these teams?
Ian Tunstead
71   Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:28:01

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Vijay, what planet are you on? Seriously, you are deluded. I don't even know where to begin because your post contains so much nonsense.
Robbie Shields
72   Posted 13/10/2011 at 11:59:13

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Ian, as far as apologists go, you take the biscuit.

In your world everything Moyes does is right, yet at the same time all his players are crap, yet he bought them. You arguments are pathetic, but very very funny, keep em coming, it's actually quite entertaining. Get your Moyes excuses ready for Chelsea, oh yeh how silly of me, they've spent more money than us so we can't compete, haha! I hope you put your money where your mouth is and support the mighty blues down at Stamford Bridge in person and enjoy 90 minutes of 11 men behind the ball like at City.

Vijay, you make some very valid points that the likes of Tunstead will never see.
Shaun Brennan
73   Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:38:18

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Vijay Badhan (70) Nail on head.

"Why can't Moyes try something different instead of the same predictable average players who have already failed in his 10 year reign to achieve anything?"

That's what pre-seasons are for when you want to try something different in a non-competitive match. Except Moyes tried to perfect on his negative tactics. Annother wasted pre-season.
Andrew Ellams
74   Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:00:12

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Ian, please pick one comment from Vijay's post and tell us all why you think it's deluded.

I can't find anything myself
Jamie Barlow
75   Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:22:52

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Andrew, how about David Moyes being the reason for our downfall? Pretty pathetic comment.
Dave Lynch
76   Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:33:26

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Cahill's comments sum it up for me.
"Let's show our fighting spirit."

Why not 'Let's go and show them what a good footballing side we are.'

Nah. Let's just go out there and kick fuck out of them.
Peter Webster
77   Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:33:35

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"Ian, please pick one comment from Vijay's post and tell us all why you think it's deluded.

I can't find anything myself"

Maybe the bum chum line. As far as I can tell both Moyes and Kenright are heterosexual. Could be wrong though, look at Elton John.
Anto Byrne
78   Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:18:46

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David Moyes is the best manager we have had at Everton. Forget Howie Kendall, Harry Catterick, Billy Bingham, Gordon Lee. Joe Royle. These managers pale into insignificance compared to David Moyes. When it comes to great tactics, you can't compare.

Okay I've watched my great team under all these other managers, so what if they tried to win games playing attractive football with the likes of Martin Dobson, Duncan Mckenzie, Andy King, Trevor Steven, Kevin Sheedy, et al. Just look at David Moyes's record over the last ten years... yeah, staggeringly brilliant don't you think.

I love the fact we have beaten our neighbours 4 times and have a beaten Man Utd and Chelsea and don't forget Arsenal on the odd occasion. As you will no doubt agree, a record that is amazing and will go down well in the great history of our most sacred club.
Richard Reeves
79   Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:47:55

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I rate Moyes as above average at best but am finding it hard to say the word 'good'. However, here's a word I can say ? Shite.

That is what I think of Moyes's tactics for this season and every other season under him. Sometimes the 'everyone behind the ball', overly defensive tactics have worked ? like when we reached fourth and qualified for Europe, but belief, team spirit and luck played its part.

Moyes would be better off in the Scottish League where he really might win something but he doesn't want to leave the cushiest job in football and he knows he'll never get a bigger job unless you think the Celtic job is bigger (which I don't).

Moyes is the Curbishley of the Prem: praised for keeping a steady ship but, when there is expectation, he will fail. It's ironic because someone who doesn't like wingers seems to be winging it.
Ian Tunstead
80   Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:36:27

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Robbie i enjoy your posts too, they are so far fetched and shite that they are almost good for comic value. The engine is running but there is no one behind the wheel.

In my World not everything Moyes does is right, but who am I to judge him? He will get it right more than anyone on here, for the simple fact that he does the job for real on a day to day basis and has the benefit of seeing his players everyday in trainings.

We can all have our own opinions but I value Moyes or any other prem managers more highly than yours, and most prem managers rate him as one of the best. I am not saying Moyes players are crap either, he has bought well considering the circumstances but relative to the top sides in the league some are lacking.

The only thing that is pathetic is your whole post giving our players your own valuation which is a complete non argument. Instead of giving Moyes credit for spending relatively small amounts on shrewd singings and developing the players, instead you twist the whole thing to turn it in to a negative but don?t take into account the valuation of other teams. One of the worst posts I think I have read in 5 or 6 years.

You have arm chair managers or FM and FIFA computer managers coming on here giving their expert opinion and actually criticising the likes of Capello. Its like me giving Floyd Maywether boxing advice because I used to be good on some boxing game on the playstation. At least give realistic arguments instead of plucking figures out of thin air, you make yourself look stupid.

As for Chelsea, I don?t have to make excuses, the facts are there for all to see.
Jason Heng
81   Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:46:51

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#70 Vijay: "Hibbert just runs up and down like a headless chicken throwing himself into badly timed tackles and he fills me with fear every time he is on the pitch."

This is ridiculous - do you expect Hibbert to run sideways instead? Even the worst boo boys blame Hibbert for everything but his tackles. Filled with fear? unless you play on the same pitch as him.
Ian Tunstead
82   Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:37:20

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Andrew, as I say, I?m struggling as to where to begin, there are so many things wrong with it and quite frankly it would be a waste of my time to dissect it all and pull his post to pieces because there is so much to say.

I will just copy and paste 2 or 3 quotes at the beginning which are complete crap or blatant lies.

?As a manager, he has not got a clue which he has proved time after time.? ? On who?s say so? Not according to all the other managers who have voted him as the best manager in the league 3 times.

?We have good young players like Barkley, Rodwell, Gueye & Vellios but ? instead of giving them the opportunity to shine ? he always picks shite players like Osman and Hibbert and Neville who, as far as I am concerned, have never been good enough.? ? Erm? Barkley has had plenty of ?opportunities? and would have had more last season only for his broken leg and only for falling to pieces in the Blackburn game and doing nothing against West Brom. Rodwell is actually getting a game ahead of Neville, so that is bollocks. Gueye has been injured, so his only argument is Vellios, but he will get more playing time over the course of the season and has still had ?opportunities? this season.

Also doesn?t that reinforce the argument what a good job he is doing having to work with the likes of Hibbert, Osman and Neville? Ask your self the question, if Neville and Hibbert don?t play, who will play RB? Coleman? Well who will play RM then? Osman? Oh no because he would have to play somebody out of position?..! It's all Moyes fault he couldn?t afford Donavan or N'Zogbia!

?Moyes is not the Everton saviour that most people assume he is but the downfall of our club along with his bum chum BK.? ?Let's get it right, we were heading for relegation until Moyes walked through the door so please stop talking bollocks and wasting my time trying to explain to you the most obvious of things.
Jimmy Kelly
83   Posted 13/10/2011 at 16:37:52

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Robbie you are missing my point entirely.

Firstly your valuations are not realistic. Not even close in some cases. If you think somebody would pay £10m for Howard or Cahill I honestly have to question your sanity.

Also my point was that although on an open market somebody may be worth a certain amount of money it is not the same as them actually costing that amount. For example if in some parallel universe we really could sell those two and raise £20m, i have no doubt that we would, and use the money on a striker. Do you see now?

I'm not blindly supporting Moyes, so don't bother calling me an apologist or whatever other embarrassing nicknames we've got now - i don't like some of the defensive minded stuff i've seen recently any more than the next man - but to suggest that we have the players to match teams like city and chelsea is just plain wrong.
Wayne Smyth
84   Posted 13/10/2011 at 18:30:09

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After 10 years and lots of money spent, we should:

a) Have some pace.
b) Have some natural wide players
c) Not be reduced to playing an attacking midfielder up front because we have no strikers.

strange that we never seem to run out of goalkeepers or defenders though....anyway, I digress.

Now, Moyes NET spend may not be much, but he has bought the likes of Yobo, Heitinga, Bily which by my reckoning is £20M of talent. They are all good players, but either have fallen foul of Moyes, or are just not good in the roles we play them in. Hence we are devoid of creativity and goals, but are happy to watch £20M worth of talent not play for us.

We've also spent £15 on Fellaini, and as much as I like him, I dont think we can afford a defensive midfielder of that price when we clearly can't scrape a fit forward or winger out of the barrel.

You could argue a lot of the "blame" lies with Kenwright, but I actually think Moyes is most at fault.

I think the problems started back when Lescott was sold. Moyes should've basically got shot of Lescott as soon as it was clear he didn't want to stay. Name his price of £23M or whatever and let Mancini take him. Instead we had the usual crap about him not being sold, had a fucked up start to that season, and ended up with £23M spent on panic buys at the last minute. Although Bily and Heitinga are good players, we just dont need them in our squad.

If Moyes sides are a reflection of him, we clearly need a strong-willed attack-minded coach alongside him who can provide a bit more balance to his views. Otherwise all we'll ever be is a side which can be difficult to beat.
Andy Crooks
85   Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:37:38

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Ian Tunstead, I agree with you. Moyes saved us from relegation. He lifted the club and has done a good job, We owe him our thanks. It is my view, though, that things have gone stale. At times he has looked, to me, at the end of his tether.

I don't like or use the term apologist and I believe that you are as aware of his shortcomings as I am. It seems to me that you take the view, as does Dave Wilson, that with Kenwright at the helm we need Moyes to keep us safe until times get better. I disagree; I believe that times are not going to get better without taking a chance and making a change.

I have, in the heat of the moment, made comments about David Moyes that I regret but my fundamental view remains unchanged. I believe we need a new coach.
Trevor Mackie
86   Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:49:07

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Wayne @ 85

You're right of course.

Football is a competition

Spectators watch for enjoyment.

In 10 yrs Moyes hasn't come near to creating a team that addresses either let alone win anything, his threadbare return is simply an improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less.

Fans simmer at Goodison rather than rebel because info is drip fed to friendly media to provide excuses.
It's shortsighted because no protest is seen as tacit support, the natural reluctance to criticise your club is being manipulated.

It's the attempts at defending what Moyes has "achieved" and proffering it as the way forward that bemuses me.

EVEN though virtually all agree with the criticisms of Moyes - his bizarre selections and unbalanced teams - the long pseudo analytical diatribes defending the ineptitude and resultant mediocrity are a phenomenen. Especially when they toss in what they see as their "Kryptonite" questions:-

"Who compares with Moyes in the circumstances and who could replace him?"

The fact nobody with his record has lasted 10 yrs to make comparisons eludes them. We dare not include the 2 who have because it's not fair as they've won stuff ? and daring to proffer other managers as alternatives is heresy evoking a full-scale strop.
Drew O'Neall
87   Posted 13/10/2011 at 20:58:58

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Trevor,

Quite a patronising and self-congratulatory post if you don't mind me saying so.

Your comment "improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less" fails to acknowledge that by the time Rooney was sold, the team was virtually unrecognisable from Smith's outfit and we appeared later that year in the Champions League so your argument doesn't really stack up either
Wayne Smyth
88   Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:00:41

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Thinking about it a bit more, I think Moyes and Kenwright obviously have some sort of symbiotic relationship going on, and while its fruitful for them, it seems it is damaging our club; especially recently.

On the one hand, Kenwright gets to invest no money and run the club in an unprofessional manner, yet he is able to keep hold of his train set as he spins himself as the concerned "fan-turned-chairman".

At the same time, Moyes gets the most secure job in the Premier League paying a fantastic salary and has a pre-made excuse when we get beat. It's in neither of their interests to rock the boat despite the fact that we appear to be heading backwards.

If we play dour football, set the team out with no ambition or belief to win a football match, then it's all because of the lack of funds.

My problem with this theory is that, for every game we lose against the Man City or the RS, there is also a game where we get played off the park by teams assembled for a fraction of the cost of our own.

We could point to games like Brentford a few seasons ago, or on our trips in Europe playing Metalist, or the game against Blackburn a few months back. The list goes on...
Trevor Mackie
89   Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:24:35

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Drew @ 88

Respectfully mate, this is the "wood for the trees" problem with the disciple of Moyes approach, you write this:

"Your comment "improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney - no more, no less" fails to acknowledge that by the time Rooney was sold, "

Completely ignoring this prodigy, now acknowledged as the best player in the UK, ACTUALLY played for us.

Ballwatching, c'mon mate - "man on" - concentrate.
Ian Bennett
90   Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:39:59

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Wayne ? I'll ask the question again: Who would be better than Moyes? I have heard so much bitching about him, yet no-one can come up with a better alternative that Everton could realistically hire. The armchairs complain about negative tactics, yet he has still been Manager of the Year 3 times and has been in around the top 8 80% of the time he has been here.

I am certain he will get the Spurs job and make a success of it if Harry gets the England job. The club was sliding towards the trap door before he came, and will slide to the trap door if he quits.

Who ever comes in after he goes ? and it could be December given the run we are on ? is going to have to be pretty good as given the lack of funds he's going have to sell any quality that we have/be pretty persuasive to try and keep hold of the better players against a backdrop of an ageing, unbalanced, threadbare squad.

I am sure I will get slated here, but as I say I have never heard a better alternative to Moyes despite his faults (and I admit he has them).
Drew O'Neall
91   Posted 13/10/2011 at 21:53:51

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Hah but your point was that Moyes' improvement on Smith was only due to (the sale of) Rooney.

Actually by the time Rooney was sold Moyes' had already completely revolutionised the squad, a squad with which he qualified (well nearly) for the Champions League.

To say his improvements on Smith are courtesy of Rooney, are therefore innacurate because he had assembled a squad capable of finishing fourth (without Rooney) and furthermore hadn't used Rooney money to significantly improve the squad so your point doesn't stand.. wasted!!
Gavin Ramejkis
92   Posted 13/10/2011 at 22:04:44

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Wayne j it was Hughes that took Worf, not the quilt Mancini, but good point.
Trevor Mackie
93   Posted 13/10/2011 at 23:09:37

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Drew ' 91

"Hah, but your point was that Moyes's improvement on Smith was only due to (the sale of) Rooney."

You disappoint me, Drew, I know you'd like to think I said that - but I didn't.

Drew this really is a problem with the Moyes support.
Gerard Carroll
94   Posted 14/10/2011 at 00:27:15

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Moyes has had that much praise heaped upon him by fellow managers and certain players (Cahill for one) he is actually begining to think he is a good manager. Everton have a reasonably good squad of players, the problem is we don't see them! Moyes has and always will play it safe.

In my opinion, he's done nothing for the club, he picks up £3.4mill a year and we all think he's great man for keeping us up! Someone on this site reckoned "he'd done a great job and has a record that is second to none". Trapatoni tactics that's all he knows!
Ian Tunstead
95   Posted 14/10/2011 at 01:28:44

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Gerard, do you think these other managers and player heap praise on Moyes for a laugh? Maybe they actually believe it, and so maybe Moyes should actually believe it. If he wasn't a good manager, he wouldn't have kept us competing at the top end of the table on a small budget for 10 years when other teams who have spent similar amounts and more have been relegated.

"Everton have a reasonably good squad of players the problem is we don't see them!"

So what? The important thing is that Moyes sees them everyday in training and so they are obviously not as good as the team he picks on match day. Maybe he should be given credit for bringing in these squad players. But what does Moyes know, you are obviously a world renowned expert on tactics.
Robbie Shields
96   Posted 14/10/2011 at 09:31:58

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Ian, what you're saying is a bit like the Governments pre GFC saying "We don't need to regulate the banks, they obviously know what they are doing and they're making huge profits, so it must all be OK, what do we know about banking?"

CRASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who came up with the big bonuses? The banks.... Who paid and is still paying for it? The Governments... Who pays the Governments? Us... and it is us that has to deal with the grim aftermath, long after the bankers have retired to their yachts.

Some people see past this "other managers think he's great, so he must be" garbage. We watch the Mighty Blues week-in week-out, not once every blue moon before we play THEIR team, but THEY obviously know better than us!

Ian, start looking instead of watching, you might be surprised by what you see.
Peter Murphy
97   Posted 14/10/2011 at 09:55:12

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I think it is the style we play that is the problem, that and the defensive mindset of David Moyes. Time and again when Moyes is interviewed, he betrays his thinking, he constantly talks about "getting wor goal" which if I am any judge of the Glaswegian colloquial idiom means single goal, one, he sends the team out to nick a goal and sit on it.

I think Moyes would love to play like the Italian club sides of the 70's, set out primarily not to concede and bugger entertaining the fans. Unfortunately, he does not have defenders at the moment with that kind of wit and movement and Jagielka who has been a rock in the past, seems to be putting his boots on the wrong feet match after match.

For God's sake, even the Walter Smith side was now and again expansive and entertaining, not that I would wish those days back but does anyone remember the 6-0 destruction of a West Ham side with Rio Ferdinand as centre back?

I think the thought of one of his sides trying to play like that and outscore opponents would probably induce a stress related stroke in 'wor' Davey.
David Mathieson
98   Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:14:38

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Anto

?David Moyes is the best manager we have had at Everton? ? That is on par with Tunstead?s pathetic ramblings on this site.

Tunstead: ?our best midfielder only went for £10m? ?We got ripped off with Arteta (Moyes should not have allowed this). Wenger never pays over the odds, always under, in my opinion... why, he has kept a side in the Champions League places 13 seasons running with a negative net spend. Moyes ? take note! With your positive net spend, add up Weneger?s cost per points ? he actually made money!

?It's all Moyes's fault he couldn?t afford Donavan or N'Zogbia!?
I believe we were after Jo for £15 to 20 million ? whosever fault that is we didn?t get him, I?m glad ? or we would have another Yakubu / Fellaini . / Bily / Heitinga situation.

Ian, you are the worst apologist on this site by far; I believe it is fans like you that have turned us into a top flight version of Crewe. Everton is a joke from top to bottom ? it needs change at the bottom before it will happen at the top.
David Mathieson
99   Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:29:20

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Ian Bennett: ?Who would be better than Moyes??? There is an absolute truck load of managers better than Moyes, that is why he didn?t go to Chelsea; if they wanted they him, they would have got their man, make no mistake about it. Other top jobs have gone, little Moyes from Everton has not been wanted, I don?t see this changing.

?The club was sliding towards the trap door before he came? ? No it wasn?t; he took over a last-8 team in the FA Cup and one that finished comfortably above the relegation zone. Also, he inherited the best striker in world football. Whoever took over would have had to have been a massive tit to take us down.

?...and will slide to the trap door if he quits.? ? This just means if he doesn?t leave the club in a better condition than he found it then he really hasn?t done a job, has he?

?...a backdrop of an ageing, unbalanced, threadbare squad.? ? Says it all really; whose fault is this?
Tony J Williams
100   Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:22:23

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?A backdrop of an ageing, unbalanced, threadbare squad.? Says it all really ? whose fault is this?"

Who is that then? Did Moyes sell his players because he wanted to? Don't need him, off with you... or did he have to sell the players because we couldn't afford to keep them? Not only does he have to sell them, he can't replace them. The one thing you cannot blame Moyes for is the threadbare squad.

"His threadbare return is simply an improvement on Walter Smith courtesy of Rooney" Trevor, considering we missed out qualifying for Europe the last day of the season with Rooney in the squad kind of negates your points, doesn't it? The next year we got into the Champions League Qualifiers, not bad for a manager who is apparently shite.

The problem we have now is that he gave us a few seasons of sustained "half-decent" league finishes; unfortunately, the squad has been picked bare and no-one has replaced our better players so we have an ageing and predictable team that is going nowhere, without an influx of money to buy better players.
Drew O'Neall
101   Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:47:42

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"Trevor, considering we missed out qualifying for Europe the last day of the season with Rooney in the squad kind of negates your points, doesn't it? The next year we got into the Champions League Qualifiers"

Thank you Tony...
Ian Tunstead
102   Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:45:03

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It?s like pissing against the wind talking to you Robbie, you just don?t get it, you have no concept or understanding of football.

As for your analogy, what are you trying to say? That we have a good squad of players, good enough to win trophies or leagues, but Moyes is deliberately holding us back by playing his worst players and adopting negative tactics to prevent us from having success, where would be the logic in that? I can see what the bankers got out of the exploits but what is Moyes getting out of it? What does it have to do with anything in this debate? Surely it would be easier to be successful if the opportunity is there.

Your analogy just doesn?t hold water, it?s completely different thing altogether; at least my analogy was a sporting analogy.

You are clearly delusional and there are not reasonable, logical or rational thoughts in your head. Your post on the valuations of players proved that and your latest one bringing the banks into it is the icing on the cake.
Ian Tunstead
103   Posted 14/10/2011 at 13:00:21

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David, I am talking about facts, you are obviously worth what someone pays for you at the time. We have had Arteta for a long time and in all that time the highest bid I have heard of was the £10m from Arsenal which was good for an injury prone underperforming 29-year-old, considering we have Rodwell and Barkley ready to step up into the position.

Another fact was that Chelsea offered £40m for Modric, because that is what they think he is worth. Spurs didn?t sell for that so he is obviously worth more that to them.

Robbie's values were not facts ? they were delusions in his own mind ? just like yours in believing Arteta to be worth more than £10m... you have your Arteta tinted specs on, mate, maybe you should watch other players like Modric and you will see the difference between a £10m player and a £40m player.

As for Wenger, haven't you heard all the criticism he?s been getting off his own fans the past few season? Haven't you noticed their lack of progression since Wenger became a bit tighter with his money?

We were also not after Jo for £15-20 million for the simple fact we didn?t have £15-£20m to spend. We probably made inquiries thinking we could get him on loan or a few million and his club instantly put a £19m price tag on his head. We got him on loan, cost us nothing, scored us a few goals, no great loss.

As for the other players you mention, Fellaini and Heitinga have done well for the club and even Bily's stats in terms of goals and assists compared to games shows he has played his part; they might not have been Moyes's best buys but for every average or poor buy I could name you two very good buys and two managers who have been less successful than Moyes in transfer dealings.

Also I don?t believe it is because of fans like me who have turned this club into the top flight version of Crewe; I believe it is fans like you, because whenever I stop commenting on this site and the negatives and Moyes bashers are allowed to take over, the negativity is transferred from these sites to the match going fans and eventually to the players, and we suddenly find ourselves on a terrible run of results. But the negatives or 0.02% are only a small part, the biggest thing is Moyes not having a level playing field in terms of money for top players.

Finally, could you name me this truck load of managers that Everton could attract who would be better than Moyes? I need a good laugh after reading some of the drivel on here.
David Mathieson
104   Posted 14/10/2011 at 13:20:50

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"The one thing you cannot blame Moyes for is the threadbare squad."

I can and do, if you waste all the Lescott money on crap like Bily, Heitinga, Distin and spend £11 million on Yakubu, £15 million on Fellaini... how much value of player do we have there altogether for an outlay of £50 million? About £10 million return in total, if we are lucky; therefore he could have had a much better squad and team if he spent big well.

Bily £0 million
Fellaini £5 million (he is crap low contract)
Hetinga £2 million
Yakubu £1.5 million
Distin £2 million

Even if you do not blame Moyes for the thredbare squad, that leaves ageing and unbalanced ?still not good reading.
Ian Tunstead
105   Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:19:19

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Only 0.02% of people would say Distin was a waste of money and a world cup finalist and Dutch International was crap. Anyway, your pal Robbie rated Fellaini at £20, and Distin at £5m. Yet again dellusion values plucked from the air. That is the best the 0.02% can can come up with. Pathetic really.
Ian Tunstead
106   Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:37:20

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Haha, sorry £20m for Fellaini. I almost turned from an apologist into the 0.02% then, can't be having that.
Tony J Williams
107   Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:25:41

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"I can and do, if you waste all the Lescott money on crap like Bily, Heitinga, Distin and spend £11 million on Yakubu, £15 million on Fellaini... how much value of player do we have there altogether for an outlay of £50 million? About £10 million return in total, if we are lucky; therefore he could have had a much better squad and team if he spent big well."

In a Peter Jones style: "...and that's why I'm out!"

John Daley
108   Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:42:06

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"..when ever I stop commenting on this site and the negatives and Moyes bashers are allowed to take over the negativity is transferred from these sites to the match going fans and eventually to the players and we suddenly find ourselves on a terrible run of results."

So when we go on a poor run of results it's not due to Moyes, the players, bad luck or injuries but rather it's because you haven't bothered posting on Toffeeweb for a bit?

If it works the other way around we must be due to hit some shit hot form pretty soon then because you've been banging on loads lately!
Stephen Kenny
109   Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:48:09

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Ian,

"I need a good laugh after reading some of the drivel on here."

You must be reading a lot of your own post's and having a right old chuckle then.

You have just claimed that you are single-handedly responsible for the atmosphere or lack thereof in GP on matchdays.
David Mathieson
110   Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:45:17

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"I'm out!" ? Good; don't come back.

"Only 0.02% of people would say Distin was a waste of money and a World Cup Finalist and Dutch International was crap."

Only an apologist would say that.

Distin is worse than Yobo, makes more mistakes; Heitinga offers nothing to the team whatsoever.
Wayne Smyth
111   Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:36:43

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David(100), great point about Moyes.

If he's such a great manager, why don't the rich teams ever want him? Best he's likely to get is a gig with Villa, or more likely Celtic due to his connections. Hardly a step up imho, or a ringing endorsement of his exceptional quality.

I prefer to judge people on the here and now rather than what happened 5 or 10 years ago. Moyes last won the LMA manager of the year in 2009. Since then he seems to have vastly lowered his own expectations and ambitions and we have been heading in reverse.

10 years ago he did a great job because he had energy and was positive, even 5 years ago we were just a few players away from being regular contenders for a CL spot. Since then he has looked ever more miserable than usual and his lack of energy and motivation is obviously filtering through.

I personally think its time for a change. Moyes has been here long enough for us to know he's not going to change his ways, and I can't see us improving or even standing where we are under his style of management. I'd rather we take a risk with a more forward thinking manager(e.g. Martinez, Holloway or even a foreign-based coach like Pellegrini) and give them a sustained shot with a bigger club(budget) than they are used to managing.

We may not finish best of the rest most seasons, but you never know if you don't try....and under the current manager it seems we've given up trying.
Brian Waring
112   Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:09:23

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Ian, you can come out with some good points, now and again, but .........

"Whenever I stop commenting on this site and the negatives and Moyes bashers are allowed to take over, the negativity is transferred from these sites to the match going fans and eventually to the players, and we suddenly find ourselves on a terrible run of results."

This is the biggest load of bullshit ever!
Jimmy Kelly
113   Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:25:46

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Distin was superb last season and has held the defence together with Jagielka's wobbles this season, and if you can't see that Fellaini's quality puts him way above anybody other than Baines in our squad then you're watching the wrong sport.

Similarly I don't recall too many moaning about Yakubu when he scored 20 goals in his first season, and he seemed to be elevated to god-like status by many people when he was shipped out on loan last year - as if letting him go was the very epitome of Moyes' 'negativity'.
Ian Tunstead
114   Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:28:18

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John, Brian you seem to have conveniently missed out the rest of the quote, it goes something like this "But the negatives or 0.02% are only a small part, the biggest thing is Moyes not having a level playing field in terms of money for top players."

But yes, I was having a bit of joke about my influence on Everton, it was a sarcastic response to David who obviuosly does think I have an influence because he said "Ian, you are the worst apologist on this site by far; I believe it is fans like you that have turned us into a top flight version of Crewe. Everton is a joke from top to bottom ? it needs change at the bottom before it will happen at the top".

I must admit though I was away for the first 4 months of last season when we were on a bad run and then went on a fantastic run when I returned. I put that down to coincidence rather then having an influence but thank you, David, for acknowleging my influence on Everton ? I must just be Everton's lucky charm.
Ian Tunstead
115   Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:53:18

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By the way David still waiting for this truck load of managers to be mentioned.

Wayne "Why don't the rich clubs have him" The top jobs in England dont come along very often, Man Utd and Arsenal have had the same manager for years, and he's not going to go to Liverpool for obvious reasons.

The only jobs he could get which might be better for him than Everton is Chelsea, but Roman likes to bring in the very top managers in the world with World Class reputations; Man City still early days, they have only started to make strides the last couple of season and Mancini has done a decent job; and then there's Spurs and, if you believe the rumours, if Redknapp takes the England job Levey will be coming for Moyes. Also for years Moyes has been widly regarded as one of, if not the favourite for the Man Utd job when SAF decides to call it a day.
Denis Richardson
116   Posted 14/10/2011 at 16:40:21

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Brian 113, thanks for saying that and saving me the trouble!

Also didn't know that 0.02% could have so much power. Based on a turnout of 35,000 at GP, thats some voice those 7 lads have on them!

Seriously though, I wish we could put the early year achievements for the manger to rest once and for all and move on. The standard of football played recently has been generally very poor, regardless of the opposition, and a lack of cash is not a good enough excuse for this.

The club does not need to be backed by a billionaire to go out and play with convicition against the likes of QPR at home and we don't need the manager saying we have no chance against a side before we even take to the field. We have played 7 league games this season and started 3 of them without a recognised striker, even though strikers were fit. This worryingly seems to be becoming a fixed tactic for the manager instead of one forced by injury. I can only hope the strikers we do have get more game time.

A lack of cash also does not explain why we have no attacking coaches on the 1st team staff - I'll be buggered if anyone can find me another top flight professional club like this. If the pro Moyes brigade could maybe answer this one question for me, I would be grateful.

Would also like to hear their oponion on having no attacking coaches - or is coaching not relevant (as I laughably read somewhere on here....)
Trevor Mackie
117   Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:26:42

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Drew and Tony J


"Trevor, considering we missed out qualifying for Europe the last day of the season with Rooney in the squad kind of negates your points, doesn't it? The next year we got into the Champions League Qualifiers"

No it doesn't.

It means we didn't qualify for europe but improved - Moyes benefiting from the impact of Rooney!!! - sorry, you're hyper-ventilating if you think otherwise.

Moyes then benefited from the Rooney cash next season - you're distressing yourself for no reason if you believe otherwise.

Denis Richardson
118   Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:37:58

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Ian - at the end of the day we will never know without a crystal ball but I would be amazed if a side like Spurs would come in for Moyes.

Have said it somewhere before, for me he is far too defensive a manager for them. You may say that he is being defensive as he has no cash (usual arguement wheeled out) but his history of falling out with pretty much all strikers would make it interesting at least with the likes of VdV, Adebayor, Defoe etc.

Spurs don't need to save money so cannot see them being interested in Moyse, they already have the backing of Lewis' billions.
Gavin Ramejkis
119   Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:17:40

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Ian, there is not a hope on Moyes being old whiskey nose's successor at the theatre of wet dreams. It's bollocks touted by the press.
Vijay Badhan
120   Posted 14/10/2011 at 15:53:49

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Ian, as far as I am concerned, I do not need to justify my views to you but, judging from the response of others to my post, I made some valid points.

Just because I don?t share your blinkered, rose-tinted view on Moyes, you arrogantly dismiss my opinions as deluded and nonsense. Moyes is an average manager and the bottom line is in 10 years he has never won a single trophy so what makes him so great?

Yes, 10 years ago, when he first came, we were relegation fodder and he definitely steadied the ship... but since then he and the team have gone stale due to his failure to try different options and styles of playing ? yet, in your opinion, we should allow him to manage Everton without ever questioning his decisions?

Gueye and Vellios have been fit enough to sit on the bench, both of whom are natural attacking players, as Moyes has chosen to play midfielders ? the likes of Felliani and Cahill ? there instead.

You asked who could play at right back instead of Hibbert? Well, Heitinga has played there for the Dutch national team in the past and Coleman is also very capable in that position.

Moyes picks predictable sides, which makes it easier for other mangers to set their teams up against because his tactics mostly consist of defending to the death and hoping to maybe nick a goal with 6 midfielders and no attacking options on the pitch.

Ian, you seem to be very judgmental towards anyone who has a different opinion to you on Moyes, which really says a lot more about you as an individual. Are you an editor of Toffeweb? As you talk about dissecting my post like some sort of expert who I require approval from. I really couldn?t care less about what you think. I was expressing my views, the way I see it, not asking for your approval.

James Heng (#83), do you actually ever watch Hibbert? If he isn?t a liability then what was he doing in the FA Cup Final when he got skinned twice for both of Chelsea?s goals? Hiddink knew that the right flank was our weakness, because of him, also the derby game about 2 seasons ago when Hibbert gave away a penalty against Gerrard after a clumsy tackle, again gave away a penalty.

He has never had international recognition and, as far as I am aware, Everton have never had a bid for him from another club so my Opinions on him, I feel are justified. He is a Championship player at best but still keeps getting picked by Moyes after 10 years of not improving as a player.
Wayne Smyth
121   Posted 14/10/2011 at 17:42:32

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Ian, can you honestly see him being offered the Chelsea post? Or ManU or Man City? Even Spurs? I can't.

Personally I think none of these clubs would even consider having him because he is just too limited. Their fans would simply not accept the style of "football" that he serves up.

5 years ago when we were flirting with Europe, I was unsure as to how Moyes would develop. Now I'm getting more and more convinced that he's not the person to take us forward from where we are.
Trevor Mackie
122   Posted 14/10/2011 at 18:24:08

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Moyes splits opinion uniquely.

One group say he's dour, defensive, timid, doesn't make the best of the players he has and we'll never win anything with him and should go.

Others violently disagree saying he's dour, defensive, timid and doesn't make the best of the players he has and we'll never win anything with him and should stay.
Ian Edwards
123   Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:02:47

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Trevor Mackie #123.

Spot on. Absolutely best post on Toffeeweb for a long time.
Chris Leyland
124   Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:05:46

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Ian #124 ? if you think this is the best post on Toffeeweb for a long time, you need to get out more mate.

A large number of fans dont subscribe to Trevor's point of view and actually appreciate Moyes for what he has done for the club despite the resources he has been given by the board.

Still I suppose some people would rather we lost 4-3 every week and got relegated as this would mean we would be watching free-flowing football?

It does seem to me that the vast majority of the footballing world admire our manager for the job he is doing, whilst a myopic minority on ToffeeWeb hate him for everything he does and will never give him any credit whatsoever. I know which group I think are right.
Chris Leyland
125   Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:10:59

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Wayne #122 "5 years ago when we were flirting with Europe, I was unsure as to how Moyes would develop." Well, since then he has qualified for Europe a further 3 times.

Of the 71 games we have played in European competition in the club 's history, Moyes has been manager for 26. So that 37% of all games.

So that's not bad for the shite manager many of the people on here would tell us he is.
Mike Bates
126   Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:35:36

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Tbf though Chris, that statistic is skewed so much in Moyes' favour, in this day and age if you qualify for a European competition even with a shit team you're pretty much guaranteed 8 games a season thanks to the group stages and a qualifying round. Not like in the old days when it was straight knockout.
Jon Cox
127   Posted 14/10/2011 at 19:54:33

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Vijay,

"Moyes's role at EFC should be nothing more than a scout's role or a coach for central defenders as he obviously has some talent in those two areas."

Hence the clean sheets. Sorry mate but even his hallowed defence is leaking goals like the Titanic. Seasons past, we were picking up lots of 1-0 wins. That is where your paragraph was correct.

Problem now is, if you can't keep clean sheets then you don't pick up 3 points for scoring 1 goal.

The back line needs to change. Jags needs "resting" for a few games and let Jonny have go.

Denis Richardson
128   Posted 14/10/2011 at 20:43:38

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Chris 126 - before bringing out a statistic like that, you might want to remember that in the old days you only got into Europe by actually winning something.

I am not going to have a go at Moyes for getting us into Europe in this modern age ? hats off to him for doing so and giving us some memorable nights. However, your comparison of getting into Europe now compared to 20 years ago is, sorry to say, nonsense IMO.
Wayne Smyth
129   Posted 14/10/2011 at 20:50:32

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Mike makes a good point; can't compare Moyes with previous managers with respect to how many games played in Europe. Apples and pears.

My main worry about Moyes between then and now is his attitude. The guy looks beaten and is rolling out excuses before we play "richer" teams as to why we'll probably lose. I don't want anyone with a losing mentality leading our club. It's just wrong in so many ways.

The David Moyes of today is not the bright, energetic manager we employed 10 years ago. We should thank him for turning us from annual relegation candidates into European contenders, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep him now. I'd rather focus on what he's done the last 3 or 4 years when determining whether he should stay on.
Jimmy Kelly
130   Posted 14/10/2011 at 21:39:33

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Valid points there regarding Moyes' games in Europe. Strange though that many people use arguments based on similar principles against him all of the time.

I've lost count of the amount of times i've seen people saying that Moyes oversaw our lowest ever points total, which is complete rubbish. He did oversee our lowest points total under the 3 points for a win system but that is somewhat different. Rather than the lowest total in our 133 year history it was actually the lowest total under a system adopted 30 years ago. Seeing as Moyes has been manager for around a third of that time, and for a number of seasons there were an extra 4 games in the season, the chances of him being in charge for this unwanted stat are actually pretty high.
Dave Wilson
131   Posted 14/10/2011 at 21:18:56

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When Rooney was sold it was in at the end of the transfer window . .we didnt have time left to spend any of the Money.

Everton were many pundits -not to mention the bookies -favourites for the drop.

Moyes startled the football world by qualifying for the champions league WITHOUT the proceeds of the Rooney transfer.

The reason he`s rated so highly amongst his peers is because he broke into what was generally regarded as an inpregnable top four with players like Pistone, Kilbane and Bent . .a remarkable achievement. He did it with the oldest center backs in football, he did it with local local boys like Osman and Hibbert

Is it any wonder Ian Tunstead feels he`s pissing against the wind ?

When people try to deny what`s in the records, whats on DVD and more to the point what we actually witnessed, reason leaves the thread
Chris Leyland
132   Posted 14/10/2011 at 22:46:48

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My point about the myopic minority is somewhat confirmed by the responses to my European point. Just to confirm, you didn't used to have to win things to qualify for Europe in the past. There was a competition called the Uefa Cup which you could qualify for through the league position ? not by winning something.

One other point too about being "guaranteed 8 games if you qualify for Europe"... erm no you aren't. Check the stats lads and you will see that we were only actually guaranteed 2 games when we have qualified under Moyes for the Europa League. This is because we had to go through the preliminary rounds of the competition and only by winning these games can we be sure of any further games. Still, let's not let the facts stand in the way of a chance to slag off Moyes.
Ian Edwards
133   Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:05:01

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Chris Leyland

Players out of position

Shite substitutions

negative formations

Teams packed with midfielders and forwards on the bench

Lost count of the number of times defeated in cup competitions by lower league opposition... Brentford, Bristol Rovers, shrewsbury, Oldham

As for europe... if he showed some balls in home games last season and played two up front we might have beaten the majority of the bottom half of the league which we failed to do due to his tactics-and qualified for Europe.

Worst Manager in the history of the club. FACT.
David Mathieson
134   Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:05:27

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Chris who has a better record in Europe: Moyes or Kendall?
Kevin Hudson
135   Posted 14/10/2011 at 23:13:01

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With a 17% win ratio - the lowest of all (based on 10 games plus) "the worst manager in the history of the club.."

..Is Mike Walker.

That IS a FACT.
Chris Leyland
136   Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:15:30

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Ian Edwards - you have the worst post in toffeeweb history Fact. What a crock of shite.. You forget to mention his number of top 6 finishes after a years of shite When we only finished top half once. The fact he has been voted the best manager in the premier League 3 times by his peers. The fact he has the best points per pound spent ratio in the premiership of all managers. Moyes worse than Walker and Smith do me a favour and stop spouting utter shite.
Chris Leyland
137   Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:23:13

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David #135. Kendalls European Record was better cos he won something. However that doesn't make Moyes a shite manager.

Who was a better manager Kendall 2nd time round or Moyes?

Who was a better manager Kendall 3rd time round or Moyes?
Brendan McLaughlin
138   Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:34:00

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Chris #138

? Kendall 2nd time round
? Moyes over Kendall 3rd time round

Is there a prize?
David Mathieson
139   Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:42:26

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Chris, Different circumstance for Kendall 2nd time 3rd time hard to conclude.

For me, Moyes is decent ? not great; not shite. I want the best Everton can be: Moyes is not it.
Andy Crooks
140   Posted 15/10/2011 at 00:53:47

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Chris Leyland,

In my time supporting Everton, the worst managers have been Harvey and Walker. It is interesting that you put Walker along side Walter Smith. Walter Smith had a worse deal from his board than David Moyes has ever had. There are similarities with Moyes but Smith was a better manager who has won trophies with poor teams.

Don't denigrate SPL coaches. Neil Lennon has dealt with more pressure than any manager in the Premier League ever has. The standard isn't as high but Smith took a piss-poor Rangers team to the final of the Europa League. Celtic were robbed this year.

Incidentally. I think we'll win tomorrow and I'll be having a few quid on at 8/1.
Brendan McLaughlin
141   Posted 15/10/2011 at 01:10:06

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Andy #141

Here's the thing... you seem to be making all the excuses for Smith that us "apologists" are making for Moyes!

BTW... I'd agree on Harvey & Walker but keep your betting tips to yourself. LOL!
Wayne Smyth
142   Posted 15/10/2011 at 10:13:28

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I think the discussion has got very polarised, as to whether he is a good manager or a crap manager. I think its a lot more subtle than that as I alluded to in #130.

Overall you can argue he has been a very good manager for Everton....but its been all downhill these last few years.

If Moyes can stop moping around, lowering the expectations of the club in the self-serving way he is and do the things he was doing 10 years ago then great, otherwise he should go while we still have a decent group of players for another manager to work with.
Jimmy Sorheim
143   Posted 15/10/2011 at 12:30:15

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Ian Tunstead, you are coming across as a bit desperate. Why not give it a rest, you are not going to change people's views just because you want to. Why not let others have their right to feel however they want to feel and you can do the same. You know how to provoke an argument that is for sure!
Jimmy Sorheim
144   Posted 15/10/2011 at 12:56:02

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What about last season playing against the weaker sides, we didn't use Yakubu, Saha was out of form until January. It took a good loooooooooooooooooooong while before we got a win and Moyes showed his weakness in not using Yakubu who had scored against Stoke and looked a lot better than Saha did. In Norway we have face factor, I belive Moyes lives this, he picks his beloved ones no matter what how piss poor they are or how out of form they are. Just take a look at Cahill, he never got back to his best after leaving for Aussie. Now Moyes demands using him even if he is out of form. Adapt. Moyes can not.

To me it is getting old and very boring, I want something new to be done, and so do many,many more. Truth is that will not happen as long as Moyes is manager here. And I think it is sad because I think he has lost his drive and his spark for football. You watch a press conference and you can see that he needs a long break to charge his batteries.

It is plain for all to see, the money troubles has affected Moyes to the point that there is hardly nothing left. That is a damn shame. I want a hungry David like when he first came into this club saying this is the People's Club, his smile was rubbing off; it no longer is to be seen!
James Stewart
145   Posted 15/10/2011 at 17:16:07

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To answer the original post.

Boring, Cowardice, Negative, Dour, defeatist etc I could go on.
Domino Darkley
146   Posted 16/10/2011 at 00:54:54

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"Just to confirm, you didn't used to have to win things to qualify for Europe in the past. There was a competition called the Uefa Cup which you could qualify for through the league position ? not by winning something. "

The only way a team got in the old UEFA Cup through a league position was to finish 2nd or 3rd.

Maybe 4th if ta team above you won the Cup and went in the Cup Winners Cup.

You certainly didn't get in by finishing 5th or worse, like it is today.

Going by the old rules, Moyes would probably never have taken us into Europe.

Harry Catterick led us to two European Cup campaigns in the days when a team actually had to win the league title to compete.

That in itself dwarfs anything Moyes has done for us in terms of European qualification.

Then there is Howard.

Who actually won a European competition and had assembled a team capable of winning the big one only for events to overtake him and the club.

To say that Moyes is our most successful manager in Europe ever is to underline the old adage about "lies, damned lies and statistics".

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