I know this has been mentioned in the past, with different angles and opinions, but I thought it was interesting. In today's 'Times' Mickel Arteta pointed out how surpised he was at the simplicitiy with which Arsene Wenger sent his players out to do their jobs.
He is reported as saying: "Players aren't weighed down with 40 different instructions..... six or seven clear ideas and that's it."
Compare and contrast with our illustrious manager.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Moyes has lesser quality players to work with in many cases – surely a good reason for keeping instructions more simple rather than making them more complex!
Tony Pickering, Posted 22/11/2011 at 09:02:17
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:19:11
You would think pre-match talks would cover at least the first few minutes of a game. But not at Everton!!
2 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:17:27
You say "Moyes has lesser quality players to work with in many cases ? surely a good reason for keeping instructions more simple rather than making them more complex!"
I'm not sure that there's a direct correlation between a footballer's "quality" and their ability to retain information and act on instructions.
3 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:26:25
Arsenals team is far more superior to ours, so I would imagine that he could say to Van Persie that he needs to go out and play how he wants, whereas Moyes would have to explain to Vellios that he needs to look for space and move away from the defender, get back when not attacking etc.
Then again, that Wenger, he's shit isn't he? 6 years and no trophies. He should have one one in that time frame surely?
4 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:23:49
I''d love to hear Moyes miked-up for a game as I have NO idea what he can be shouting (nb: to professional footballers who have done nothing but play the game since they were 8)
"Kick it... better!"
"Trap it... properly!"
I'm reminded of the (animated and shouty) former Scotland boss, Ally MacLeod, who during the 1978 World Cup (according to Willie Johnstone) spent most of his time giving his players the highly technical 'instruction' "Come on, Scotland!!"
5 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:49:58
6 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:48:30
7 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:54:33
At Everton we often having players being played out of position, the old 'square peg in the round hole' scenario, which in my opinion will therefore require greater coaching, discipline and managerial awareness. A prime example being the role and position of Lee Carsley who was instrumental to making the team tick and has been cited by a number of the more senior pros still left at the club as the heartbeat of the side.
I would love Moyes to be a little more ambitious and trust less on his own (defensive?) instincts and give the likes of Barkley, Gueye and Vellios a number of games / run in the side and try to establish a new team based upon youthful exuberance.
8 Posted 22/11/2011 at 13:59:40
I believe Moyes believes his own hype, he thinks by constantly shouting instructions, it is somehow going to make us play better. At times I get embarrassed when he shouts constantly ? he reminds me of an over-protective father watching his sons play.
9 Posted 22/11/2011 at 14:13:43
It is a simple game, pass and move into space, unfortunately it is played by simple people who lack the forethought of actually moving to receive a pass....lazy overpaid feckers.
10 Posted 22/11/2011 at 15:44:54
Hansen said that, unless there was something really out of the ordinary that they had to consider about a team, they just went out and played the way they had done all week in training. As Tony J Williams says; pass and move into space............easy really!
11 Posted 22/11/2011 at 15:55:04
Why would you be embarrassed for our manager shouting out instructions to his under-performing players?
12 Posted 22/11/2011 at 16:30:42
13 Posted 22/11/2011 at 16:49:40
14 Posted 22/11/2011 at 16:52:05
Jagielka to pump the ball up-field at every opportunity, regardless of whether there's any Blue shirts there.
15 Posted 22/11/2011 at 16:53:13
Shock, horror...Arsenal have a different style from us. You'll be telling us next the earth isn't flat.
16 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:00:24
17 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:00:54
Come in close so I can whisper "so do Swansea".
18 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:06:26
Alex, I actually think rule no 1 is to get it to Baines to see what he can do with it, as he seems to be the only one with a bit of creativity in him at the moment.
Rule no 2 is to pass it to Coleman and shout, "Run, Forrest, Run!"
19 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:10:06
Having started to watch regularly my local non-league team, and being literally 2ft from the halfway flag, one of the things I first noticed (apart from the fact that despite being about 12 divisions below the Premier League, the standard of football was good and no diving/rolling around/injury breaks), was the amount of verbal instructions.
Managers shouting instructions/comments, captain shouting instructions/comments, players shouting instructions/comments. Most of the time in complete conflict with the previous one.
A lot of these comments get the refreshingly simple "Fuck off" from the player involved, but mostly, there's just so much going on that no-one can really take any notice of anything, and people just crack on and play as they were/think.
And I mean, really ? when you're losing 5-0 to an obviously superior team, just what is the point of shouting to your players to "work harder"?
20 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:14:00
The tragedy for our club is that "The Biggest Evertonian", an increasingly comedic figure, can and will do nothing to rectify and/or improve the situation. The lies continue to pour out of his mouth, his acolytes continue to believe them, and Everton continues to deteriorate.
Moyes has always been a "shouty" manager, if I were him I would be screaming, and it wouldn't be at the players.
21 Posted 22/11/2011 at 17:51:31
Embarrassed when the mics pic up Moyes shouting at Hibbert to throw the ball to Ossie! I mean ffs, the lad knows how to take a throw-in... let him choose the best option!! Or how about the classic Jag hoof then the scream to Saha "Go on, Louis." Fucking schoolboy stuff.
22 Posted 22/11/2011 at 18:16:23
23 Posted 22/11/2011 at 18:45:08
24 Posted 22/11/2011 at 18:43:29
When you have as much possession as Arsenal you're reducing your worries.
If... no, can't think of any more. But for Arsenal:
Instruction 1 Pass
Instruction 2 Pass
Instruction 3 Pass
Instruction 4 Pass
Instruction 5 Pass
Instruction 6 Shoot
Instruction 7 Dive
25 Posted 22/11/2011 at 18:44:22
"Tim, watch those bleeding long shots!"
"Hibbo, you ARE allowed to get in their box!"
"Jags, not ANOTHER 50 yd pass!"
"Felli, get your bleeding haircut lad!"
"Seamus, get your head up son!"
"Denis, get on there and score some goals!"
"Bill, do us a favour and sell up!"
Well, it might help a bit!
26 Posted 22/11/2011 at 18:48:23
Unfortunately with the emphasis on defence, our man has found it far more difficult to drill both midfield and forward players in the arts of fashioning and scoring goals at t'other end whilst having one eye on making sure opponents don't nick one!
27 Posted 22/11/2011 at 19:20:44
Most of these lads obviously weren't professional and had comparitively no coaching to pro footballers.
I imagine that the pros are at least as good and most likely better than the players I'm talking about.
This begs the question of whether pros need much attacking coaching at all. I doubt that they do.
Sadly, Moyes, Mcleish, Capello etc. coach their players to death. They kill creativity and freedom of expression. It has been said before but this anti-football approach is predictable and dull.
But worse still it is sinister, as it feeds the manager's ego at the expense of the players that serve him.
28 Posted 22/11/2011 at 19:43:43
It's always annoyed me that Moyes seems intent on dictating every hoof, header and fart that happens on the pitch. These players are professionals at the top of their game with more footballing ability than Moyes ever had, yet he seems to want to treat them like children.
This style of coaching also explains why the team largely look afraid to do anything remotely risky, such as get forward or move into space unless they get a shout from Moyes to do so. Lest they get a bollocking or get dropped to the reserves for 3 weeks.
It also explains why players sometimes arrive at the club and play really well, but end up looking shit after a few games when the coaches have managed to work with them. They're probably completely confused about what they can and can't do and end up doing fuck all.
29 Posted 22/11/2011 at 20:04:30
You mean teams playing 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, will come as a shock?
It's not rocket science, is it?
30 Posted 22/11/2011 at 20:04:17
I think coaching is the wrong word for this as you obviously can't teach vision etc. but you can point out that "quite often player X will run out of position when his team attack down the right, so get yourself in that space and you lot look for that pass" etc.
I see that type of thing as tactical awareness and something the manager should bring to the table. I'm not confident that he does... based on the fact we set up to play almost every game the same way in the same fashion.
31 Posted 22/11/2011 at 20:21:37
I am a great believer that installing confidence in your team is one of the managers most important roles. I don't think that Moyes does all he can to generate confidence amongst the squad. In fact, I think that he believes that they perform better when he knocks them down a peg or two.
32 Posted 22/11/2011 at 21:05:54
I simply find Moyes frustrating and irritating to the extreme and look forward to the day he leaves.
33 Posted 22/11/2011 at 21:13:35
And before someone says that we will finish above Swansea and Norwich, we probably will. The point is you don't have to have the better players (ie Arsenal) to get a team playing football.
34 Posted 22/11/2011 at 21:40:39
35 Posted 22/11/2011 at 21:48:35
Luckily he excelled at defensive stategies, playing ten men behind the ball, gettng your wingers to track back and defending a 0-0 lead, so much so that he passed the badge anyway. Lucky for us eh!
36 Posted 22/11/2011 at 22:13:37
I know but thats why I sent him all my back copies of "Roy of the Rovers" so there's absolutely no excuse why the ginger twat doesn't have our midfield playing free-flowing football evoking memories of the great Brazilian sides. I mean that Pep fecker at Barcelona doesn't even have his Level 1 Coaching Badge and...er wait a minute...clink, clink (sound of pennies dropping by the way)
37 Posted 22/11/2011 at 22:16:11
My grizzle is the two pages of instructions before a sub goes on. If such detailed advice is really necessary, the players must be thick headed.
38 Posted 22/11/2011 at 22:31:25
39 Posted 22/11/2011 at 23:19:57
I believe the vast majority of players are average at best at Everton, however they can do the basics. The problem is that rather than actually attempting to play an intelligent brand of passing football, the players carry the coach's fear onto the park with them. Jags smashes long balls, he is an England International for ffs.
Everton always ask forwards to run the channels or ask Cahill to be a nuisance......this is not top level football. You never see European sides play like this, it went out with the ark. Why the fuck do we play like this?
The answer is David Moyes's pathological fear of playing attractive football. Some will say it gets results, but fuck me we want results by being entertained. We are Everton, we should be demanding results with stylish football. Anything less belies the tradition of our magnificent club.
40 Posted 23/11/2011 at 01:37:29
Clough's reaction to their inability to think for themselves was "Stop Stan Bowles, that's all you need to know about QPR."
41 Posted 23/11/2011 at 01:35:43
Players can run marathons at each match, built like He-Man, and every team plays Total Football in that they cover then entire pitch. For middle- to lower-tier teams like us, unfortunately goals will always be rarity and so we need to rely on set-pieces or waiting until we have enough numbers before Baines cross. All this requires coordinating a total team effort which is what Moyes is shouting about as we are not coached like a well-oiled PES team!
And in the modern game, having 9 men behind the ball is a proven way to suffocate the opposition even if they're Barca/Spain. Moyes the General is barking instructions all the time, not unlike an American Football coach spoon-feeding tactics to the quarterback (who then relays the instructions to the other zombies).
As for Arsenal, they simply play like everyday in training, it's on automation. And it also explains why Arsenal's defence is crap if all they do is pussy foot around every other day of the week.
42 Posted 23/11/2011 at 02:39:58
Then, for the second half, he could go down to the technical area after advising his players during the break and having made any necessary adjustments, sit back and enjoy watching his side tear the opposition to pieces...
43 Posted 23/11/2011 at 04:36:06
44 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:00:02
"Re: Tony @ 22
You mean teams playing 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, will come as a shock?
It's not rocket science, is it?"
You know exactly what I mean, a 4-5-1 played with an attacking midfielder is different than a defensive one, the wingers may crowd in the middle, not stay out wide. The actual formation alters and players switch position. It's not as east as, "it's 4-5-1 so the team will definitely do this".
Also, if it's so easy, why are people criticising Moyes so much then?, obviously the other manager can easily nullify any threat posed.
It's actually piss easy this managing lark, just count the players and where they are and it's Bob's your uncle. Where's the number for the FA Coaching badge section?
45 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:15:45
WHY DOES STEVE FUCKING ROUND WEAR A MIC WHEN HE'S STOOD RIGHT NEXT TO MOYES?
46 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:17:59
47 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:09:58
Ross Barkley was the focus of much of his shouting when he came on against Man United.
48 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:44:55
"Ross Barkley was the focus of much of his shouting when he came on against Man UNited", He was in the Lower Gwladys too but it was usually, "Pass the fucken thing" or "fuck me Barlkey lad", when another pass went astray.
49 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:51:34
He listens to Smooth FM, cos that's how Roundy rolls!!!
50 Posted 25/11/2011 at 20:54:26
Basically, you appear to be saying that football is incredibly easy to play and Moyes giving them too many instructions is unnecessary. However, you then blame him for the team's woes. Clearly this doesn't make any sense; if it's so easy why don't they just say sod this and play the way they want? And why does anybody employ a manager?
51 Posted 27/11/2011 at 12:00:42
"Basically, you appear to be saying that football is incredibly easy to play and Moyes giving them too many instructions is unnecessary. However, you then blame him for the team's woes. Clearly this doesn't make any sense".
Seems to make sense to me (HOW does it not?)
Maybe it would help if you changed your interpretation - 'easy to play', with (the more accurate) 'does not have to be overcomplicated'.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.