Two wins in a row. We hadn't conceded a goal from open play since the first half away to Newcastle. Fellaini had signed a new 5-year deal... Things were looking up (on the pitch and off).
Confidence is a very important componenent of any person (especially professional athletes). As soon as I read Moyes's comments about the recent wins being "make-up" and he is still worried, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Moyes has proven he's a leader and he of all people should know that every word he says has a ripple effect on the players, fans and club.
Yesterday's performance reflected a team and organization with zero confidence. If I were Moyes and I felt the team was not strong enough and any win was flattering, I would keep that to myself and make sure this squad maintained the positivity the results against Wolves and Bolton had created.
When you looked at Stoke's away form ? especially after a Europa game ? everyone thought a result (with hard work) was possible. That hard work never showed up. I don't doubt that Moyes is an excellent manager (you might argue he can spot talent but doesn't really know how to use it) but I'm afraid that, with comments like the ones before the Stoke game, he has given up on us.
I don't mind stressing the 40pt level and how important it is but maintaining any type of momentum is key to a decent season. I still think short term we will be worse off if Moyes leaves but, unless the rumours of investment are true and Moyes will have his 'Give me a tranfer budget' bluff called, then the team will reflect our Manager's apathy.
It's only apathy now; I hope it never reaches the stage of surrender...
Mohammed Horoub, Posted 05/12/2011 at 13:58:38
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 05/12/2011 at 16:18:52
He's fireproof, even the protest group the BU are behind him.
It's like some Derren Brown mass hypnosis.
2 Posted 05/12/2011 at 16:39:10
We waved the white flag at both Manchester City and at Chelsea.
I hust wish the bugger would do one.
3 Posted 05/12/2011 at 17:26:56
Having correctly pointed out that the team & organisation have problems & issues to address, what do you think would be the point of Moyes simply promoting 'positivity,' if it wouldn't accurately portray the difficulties he faces?
4 Posted 05/12/2011 at 17:41:48
5 Posted 05/12/2011 at 17:38:29
I am sorry but I disagree with your view here.
Mohammed is right - when confidence is fragile and we have had a couple of decent results - then comom sense alone says do not create negativity.
I am emphasising the word 'create' here. No-one is expecting Moyes to be some kind of Walter Mitty character and say all is rosy..that's naive and idiotic. I do not think Mohammed was even suggesting that.
But to go out of your way to persistently dampen expectation by stating player weaknesses can serve no other purpose than to create fear and negativity.
Worse still, ( and I do not like saying this as I like the man - perhaps not the manager - but the man yes) it strikes me as a creating verbal each way - hero if he does achieve with such mediocrity - not the viallain or the cause if we don't. Let's not be naive in thinking that as with anyone in employment Moyes does not have one eye on the future.
6 Posted 05/12/2011 at 17:42:48
7 Posted 05/12/2011 at 17:48:28
Following the two wins, Moyes came out and said he wanted more. He craved a lengthy unbeaten run; he said he believed we could improve, and that "good football goes hand-in-hand with good results."
The point: He wasn't as negative as initial cherry-picked reports found here on ToffeeWeb suggested.
His comments were balanced, and no amount of bullshit supposition that the players confidence has been depleted by cliched media remarks, justifies calls for his removal.
(The results on the other hand..)
8 Posted 05/12/2011 at 18:05:04
Fair response on the dangers of edited content - however, I did read the whole article and did grasp the context.
The lines that stood out to me:
?If results had gone against us last week and we'd lost, we could have ended up fourth bottom,? he said.
?We've moved up the table but it might just be putting on a bit of make-up at the moment.
?We've got Stoke and then Arsenal, so it could easily turn around again.?
It's the last one that gets me. Arsenal away...ok ...tough fixture. But Stoke at home??????What was he expecting?
Sorry, whilst I agree it could be levelled that I have still cherry picked - makes no odds, that's a poor comment 48 hours from a game.
Too comfortable, too complacent, too indifferent, too repetitive, too glass half empty...time to go. (It will do him some good too)
9 Posted 05/12/2011 at 18:01:18
When I hear Moyes in the press it doesn't inspire me as a fan and make me confident about what I can expect from the team. We'd also be naive if we thought that comments made to the media by the manager don't influence the players thinking too. The way the team play continually bereft of ideas and confidence seem to back this up.
In the last 12 months, Moyes has had to lose 2 players who provided what little creativity the squad had. I think its fair to say that he has failed to manage on 2 accounts:
1) He has failed to ensure that we have more than those two players who are able to create things.
2) He has failed to adapt his tactics to the players that remain.
Isn't the definition of a manager, to "Manage"? To make do, to adjust and be flexible. I haven't seen any adjustments or flexibility from Moyes when the tap got turned off.
I've just seen the same players being played in the same places and being asked to do the same things that failed for so many games before.
10 Posted 05/12/2011 at 18:55:56
11 Posted 05/12/2011 at 18:54:59
About 15 minutes into the game yesterday, Fellaini nearly put Hibbo in with a chance on goal. It was amazing, went all wobbly at the knees i did! BLOODY HIBBO alone with the keeper, can you imagine Goodison if he had have got on the end of that and smacked it in? I mean why not? Johnson does this for the RS on a regular basis, come to think of it, Bainsey also has at least one or two shots at goal every game. Why has Moyes put up with this for 10 bleeding years?
This is not a dig at Hibbo, actually thought he played well and his crossing has got much better lately, he just wasnt first in the queue when it comes to creativity, or shooting, or getting to the bleeding dead ball line for that matter.
I just can not understand how Moyes has not sussed this out in his time at Everton!
12 Posted 05/12/2011 at 19:47:51
No strikers, no wingers, no chance of scoring. Real worrying times now. God knows what can be done without cash.
13 Posted 05/12/2011 at 19:34:56
The single striker having defensive plus attacking duties does as well as expected . He has to help out at corners, work the channels and get on the recieving end of hoof balls.
The main problem as I see it lies in the midfield. Cahill flogs himself trying to be all things to all men. Fellaini does OK and that is just about all we have.
Rodwell plays like an overgrown school kid. He has the physique of a John Charles (ask your dads) yet never unleashes the full power of those attributes.
Bily is dreadful and the least said about Osman the better. We are in dire straits if that last two are rated by Moyes as the best we have.Then again there is a growing question mark against his performance as a manager.
14 Posted 05/12/2011 at 20:02:21
If this was any other top 4 club, he would get smacked by the media and fans, but not at Everton, because the majority feeling is that he is too GOOD for Everton... BULLSHIT, I say.
Myth after myth goes with Moyes and the media and it is utterly nonsense. It is high time that Moyes start by taking his share of the blame here. He doesnt, and he will not, as he is stubborn. All that is left is the fans, a fans unrest and perhaps a protest inside Goodison would do us the world of good.
I for one am getting sick of Moyes getting away with murder, he has sold our best players, Arteta and Yakubu could have been kept, to keep the best interest of the club, not the feelings of a player and a manager. A manager must always put the club before any player; because Moyes has not done that, I think he should be forced to resign, by the fans, as Kenwright is his sugar daddy and lovechild.
15 Posted 05/12/2011 at 20:22:47
Anyway have no fear Jimmy I think I have solved all our troubles.... What is the biggest gripe with Moyes? He ruins strikers and sells quality players for less than their real value. Well i've got it all sussed, I have the answer.... Who you ask....?
STEVE KEANE! He knows how to get the best out of his strikers, look at Yakubu for example, and What a bargain £1m is fantastic buisness. Get him in! He will take us to the promised land of the top 4. He doesnt need money, just look what he has done with Blackburn, a small club like that imagine what he could do with Everton. You lead Jimmy and I will follow.... Where and when I will have the banner ready?
16 Posted 05/12/2011 at 21:55:07
And any idiot would think buying a striker for a million who scores 4 in one game is quite good business.
I normally like Moyes but he does do questionable things. Playing a rigid, uninventive 4-5-1 formation is one. Selling Yakubu and Beckford when we're short up front is another. Yes they weren't great but to replace them with Stracqualursi? Cmon!
He's good but he's not perfect, and frankly, your continued backing him, and I don't think I've ever seen you criticise him.
And agree with Ciaran's comment.
17 Posted 05/12/2011 at 22:02:45
18 Posted 05/12/2011 at 22:04:34
Players like Stracq who Moyes obviously doesn't rate enough to play for more than 10 minutes, and McFadden who should never have been re-signed because he didn't have the quality in the first place.
People go on about how Moyes has had to make do with bugger all in terms of money, but he continually shoots himself in the foot by alienating good players like Yobo and Yakubu till they're worth fuck all, and keeping players like the £9M Bily and £6M Heitinga ? neither of whom usually get a regular game.
Moyes has struck me these past few seasons as a stubborn, sulking child who is either incompetent (unlikely) or trying to prove a point to the board by throwing his toys out the pram. Either way, it does Everton no good at all.
19 Posted 05/12/2011 at 22:10:51
Erm I may have missed something but we aren't a top 4 club and have actually only finished in the top 4 once in 22 seasons.
20 Posted 05/12/2011 at 22:08:28
21 Posted 05/12/2011 at 22:19:45
22 Posted 06/12/2011 at 01:09:11
The fans already know that the last two wins were lucky and we played badly in them and the results are just papering over the cracks.
So the fans know it, the manager knows it, don't you think the players know it to? If any of them think they played well in those two games, or any game this season for that matter, they're delusional and need a good kick up the arse.
23 Posted 06/12/2011 at 01:17:33
Ben, sorry mate, but you are wrong; I have just finished criticising Moyes a few seconds ago on another thread about playing to Stoke's strengths, relying on crosses from Bily and Baines and hoping Cahill and Vellios would win the battle, so no I don't defend Moyes for the hell of it.
24 Posted 06/12/2011 at 01:27:29
History tells me that Moyes gets the best out of his players and finishes in the top 8 more often than not and facts tell me that the more money you spend the higher up the table you tend to finish. The facts are we have spent almost zero money on players in the last couple of seasons and sold our most creative players and strikers.
History shows that teams that lack good strikers and creative players tend not to score many goals which means teams tend not to win many games. It's not rocket science. If you can count to 10 you should be able to understand all this.
Sorry if I come across an "arrogant twat" but it really is frustrating trying to expain the obvious every weekend to the same people.
25 Posted 06/12/2011 at 04:40:10
Gone quiet like the 'Coleman is our saviour and must start' accolytes of last season?
26 Posted 06/12/2011 at 06:14:56
Vellios only started because "old glass legs" got himself injured AGAIN!
As for Coleman, he deserves his spot. Sure he is one-dimensional in his play, but he is one of our better players now.
Vellios was poor on sunday, but he has scored more goals than Saha. In fact, how many have Saha scored ?
27 Posted 06/12/2011 at 06:17:49
I don't think I've read here or anywhere else claims that Velios is some sort of goal scoring machine but have said myself he needs a strike partner, unfortunately another Gollum miserable special saw a like for like replacement late chasing the game with Velios dragged of and Straqualarsi replaciung him as if an inferior striker stranded up front on his own again would suddenly work.
Moyes is predictable, far too predictable to win games with his negative dross.
As far as Coleman goes, who would you put on the right wing Eric if not Coleman?
28 Posted 06/12/2011 at 07:32:35
Gavin, Velios clearly isn't good enough to play 90 minutes and has only scored coming on as a sub. Better use him as a super sub for 20 minutes than get nothing out of him for 80 or 90.
And Coleman can't beat defenders, he just runs into blind alleys and loses the ball or cuts inside and passes to Hibbert to beat the defender on the sideline, or just passes back.
Unfortunately we haven't got anyone else so these players have to start when there's no other options, but they clearly aren't good enough and are not the saviours those supporters who clamour for them to be given a start seem to think.
29 Posted 06/12/2011 at 07:53:32
Either we sell off the good ones and become entirely average or....
We do something to make sure we can afford some much needed first team players.
My suggestion would be to sell Billy in January and concentrate on signing a RB a RM and most importantly a striker. I would suggest the Championship the best place to look. Maynard and Clyne are two good players with 6 months left on their contracts who should therefore be affordable and Adomah is a 6ft1 pacy winger who gets a few goals as well. Oh yes, and move the earth to get Drenthe to stay.
30 Posted 06/12/2011 at 12:06:22
Like Tony Marsh, who can't support Moyes for the hell of it, you are the opposite.
I crown thee the new Richard Dodd!
But seriously though, it is obvious he has his mistakes. Like Gavin said, why take a striker off for another one? Why not take the midfielders off so we can play 2 up front?
Why sell Beckford and Yakubu? Why play 4-5-1? Why play Cahill?
31 Posted 06/12/2011 at 15:58:15
That wasn't the case and the performance on the pitch reflected the manager's pre-game comment...
32 Posted 06/12/2011 at 16:08:57
Also I dont like to sit here with the benefit of hindsight in the comfort of my arm chair and criticise a man who has far more understanding and knowledge about football than i ever will, never mind things like seeing his players everyday in training and knowing which players are carrying knocks or lacking confidence.
I do not defend Moyes or anyone for the hell of it and i wouldnt criticise anyone for the hell of it either. If i do criticise anyone i will at least try to make it constructive criticism with some facts to back up the criticism rather than blindly criticising Moyes like most on here.
In answer to your questions ?it is obvious he has his mistakes. Like Gavin said, why take a striker off for another one? Why not take the midfielders off so we can play 2 up front??
Of course he makes mistakes, I have never denied that fact, but who hasn?t made mistakes? The fact is he must make less mistakes than most of the other managers because he finishes above the majority of them every season.
?Why take a striker off for another one? because Velios was ineffectual and out of his depth and probably isn?t used to playing 90 mins so was probably knackered. He made little impact on the game and so someone else deserved a chance. Why do Barcelona play 5 in midfield? Maybe because it suites their style of play, maybe its because they know if you control the midfield you usually control the game which usually means you win the game. Maybe its because our strikers are crap and Moyes would rather play midfielders who have more of a goal threat or a better chance of scoring. By your logic if we had the strikers why don?t we play 5 up front, will have have a better chance of scoring then?
?Why sell Beckford and Yakubu? Why play 4-5-1? Why play Cahill??
Beckford was a league one standard player who couldn?t control a ball or hold it up, it was like playing with 10 men, to sell him for £4m was a no brainer when the banks want their money back. Yakubu couldn?t be arsed anymore so again it was like playing with 10 men and he was costing us a fortune in wages.
We play Cahill because we have so few options and although he is out of form he is still one of the best goal scoring midfielder in the league and can at least keep hold of the ball and win headers for the team which was more than Beckford was doing. Please don?t say Beckford scored 10 goals because Cahill scored about 8 before he got injured. Both are not scoring now and out of form but Cahill still contributes without scoring.
33 Posted 06/12/2011 at 18:04:57
34 Posted 06/12/2011 at 18:07:19
Do us a favour Ian, re-post this the next time saint Dave sends us out to play for a draw!!!
35 Posted 06/12/2011 at 18:34:44
This is a wacky theory, but perhaps it's just that these players who play international football and look very good on occasion, are just not being given the correct opportunity to play the game to the best of their ability because of Moyes's stale tactics that haven't changed for years? Tactics that shun any risk and instead concentrate on damage limitation in all circumstances.
Just an example, but did anyone notice how tall all the Stoke players looked compared to ours this weekend? So, Moyes tactics ? like every week ? is slow build-up play with cautious side-ways passing, wait for the opposition to get their defence sorted, then get the ball in from wide areas and look for Vellios/Cahill to outjump 6'5" Huth and the 5 or 6 other stoke players who outnumber them.
Or let's take Stoke's goal. All our players stuck in our own penalty area like scared sheep, no-one waiting just outside the box for an out-ball... and therefore no-one close enough to pressurise the Stoke player when the ball falls to him. Same thing nearly fucking happened a few minutes later if I recall rightly.
What's wrong with playing two proper strikers? Cahill hasn't scored for about a year, give the guy a rest, give Saha and Vellios a chance to play together. Or maybe play Bily in his chosen position in the Cahill role and try to unlock the lumbering Stoke defence with his quick feet and intelligence. That would be far more likely to get us a goal than flinging balls into the box aiming for 1 or 2 smaller Everton players vs a ton of massive stoke defenders.
If our club has no money, I want to see a manager who at least attempts to adapt and use what resources he does have to their full. I don't think anyone can argue that Moyes is getting the best out of his players.
As for Yakubu, he barely played for us when Moyes had the opportunity to play him, so there was obviously some issue there. Certainly not an issue about ability or fitness though, as he's showing with Blackburn.
36 Posted 06/12/2011 at 20:48:28
Barca have great players with passing, technique and pace. We have a midfield with zero pace and decent passing. The idea of a 5 in midfield is to support the attacker. Our midfielders are either not forward thinking enough or are not pacy enough. So it would have made sense to keep Vellios on, put off let's say Cahill or Coleman for Stracq, and just pump the balls in the box and could get a lucky break. We then have STRIKERS who are trained to score every day INSIDE THE BOX. We tried the other route, pass around and we didnt have a shot on target!
At least Beckford and Yakubu can provide options. Beckford has pace, movement, not bad finishing. If we would put him on, it would at least give Stoke something new to worry about. But no, we're stuck with an injury prone striker, and two unknown youngish continental players, who by the way are BOTH target men!!! Vellios will undoubtedly turn to a good player, but he needs time.
With Yakubu, I bet he could be asked if he was playing. Like Blackburn are doing and oh yeah he is scoring goals. He's at least a better option to what we have now. I wouldnt have minded if we replaced him with even one decent striker, but we didnt, so that transfer strategy has seen us have zero threat up front.
What has Cahill contributed? I'd rather see Billy in the middle and give Cahill a rest, rather than tiring him out. He has not been effective at all, he needs a break.
And then you say "it's only once in a blue moon Moyes deserves to be criticised", this is the worst statement of all. I'm not against him, Ian, I never have, I'd never get rid of him because only Mark Hughes could do a similar job. But Moyes does blindingly obvious mistakes, which annoy people, the majority of this site. The ones I've said, but the worst is 4-5-1!!!
You still do defend Moyes for the hell of it, Ian, I'm sorry. You're so against people criticising him.
37 Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:14:14
Not at Finch Farm apparently?
38 Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:16:56
Forget Yakubu let it go, he has gone, yes he is scoring goals like he always does for a new team but you wanted us to keep Beckford as well, what has he done since he left? You win some you lose some, Yakubu couldnt be arsed he had to go.
At the end of the day it all comes down to one thing, money, and if there is no one who could replace Moyes and do a better job with zero money there is no point getting angry with Moyes and complaining, it will not get us anywhere. The sooner you accept that the sooner we can all get on with the task at hand without people trying to rock the boat.
Only 2 men have broken the top 4 without CL money in since Abramovic spent his millions; Redknapp and Moyes, no other manager has proven he could do better than Moyes. Aim your anger at the board not Moyes.
39 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:01:18
Where I would worry about Moyes, is that he currently looks a beaten man with no plan B, in complete contrast to the energetic manager we hired.
Now that the money is turned off, that means we need a coach prepared to get the most of what we have. Is Moyes that man today? I think not. You obviously disagree, which is fine.
You also say yak "couldn't be arsed", I say where is the evidence that his transfer/lack of game time was down to the yak's bad attitude? What we know is that we had a very good goalscorer on our books who was "28" and who Moyes let go for fuck all, leaving us with no-one able to score a goal. Perhaps he couldn't run round like a headless chicken as much as Moyes likes, but he certainly can score plenty of goals and I know which of those attributes we should be more interested in.
Part of Moyes job is to get maximum value for EFC from our assets(players) and that means doing his utmost to work with what we have and make the players want to play for us. My gut feeling is probably that there was some personal issue between yak and moyes and moyes obviously didn't want to play him. Ultimately that attitude has cost the club a lot of money.
I'd also take issue that no-one could do a better job. I think someone like Wenger could. His net spend and Arsenals achievements vastly outperform Moyes, especially considering Arsenal actually play attractive football.
Obviously wenger isn't going to come to us, but he came as a relatively unknown from Grampus 8 I think, and there are certainly more Wengers out there to find. Question is, do we think the risk is worth it?
40 Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:54:30
Now, almost any team use it, and that's why Moyes' tactics are stale. Like Wayne said, he needs a plan B
41 Posted 07/12/2011 at 22:06:15
These things go in cycles, if Liverpool and Spurs fail to qualify for the CL again and the last of their CL money or Torres money dries up and we sell either Rodwell or Barkley to re-build the team we have a chance to take either Spurs' or Liverpool's place agian, but for the time being we need to be patient.
42 Posted 07/12/2011 at 22:20:46
And as you say Wenger isnt going to come to us so there is no point in bringing him into this debate or the fact that he has a huge advantage of being able to offer far bigger wages and CL football.
43 Posted 07/12/2011 at 22:26:21
As soon as I saw the teamsheet I knew the outcome.
It was very interesting watching the Basel - Utd game tonight as when Basel were 1-0 up they still kept 2 up front. Can you imagine Moyes doing that!?
He wouldn't do it if we were 3 down let alone winning! Fortune favours the brave and all that. Moyes's tactics are beyond predictable now and are quite frankly just insane.
44 Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:38:47
£50M from TWO players only, plus all the debt the club has taken on, plus the additional money Moyes has made from other signings. He's spent that quite well, but has also wasted a hell of a lot of money by hounding Yobo and Yak out of the club to the point where we'll be lucky to get £2M for the both of them.
Worryingly, the guy looks completely broken and beaten the last couple of years and its obvious he knows only 1 way to get his players to play, which isn't working. He is also incapable of fitting very expensively signed players into his team.
As regards Wenger, my point was that he wasn't a worldwide well-known coach when Arsenal appointed him. Yet he's done a unbelievable job with arsenal on very little money, buys players very young, plays them, improves them, sells most of them on for a massive profit and has allowed the club to really compete with far richer clubs over a sustained period without breaking the bank.
So although Wenger wont come as I said in my previous post, its not inconceivable that we can find another wenger, just waiting for his chance. There are several managers who've done a similar job to wenger in different leagues. Just look at the job Manuel Pelligrini did for Villereal.
That Villereal side that played us completely outplayed us for most of those ties and went to the quarter finals of the CL that year if I remember right. They competed with far richer clubs in Spain and I think their ground holds far less than Goodison and they play in a financially worse off league.
To think that Moyes is the best Everton can get is simply having far too low expectations of what can be achieved and what we should be aiming for.
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