Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Media-led delusions and ridiculous bandwagons

 98 Comments: First  |  Last

No doubt I?ll get slated by some people for saying this, BUT it has to be said. The local media and deluded Evertonians have been propping up this ridiculous Kenwright/Moyes regime for years.

We've been hammered at home on numerous occasions, hammered away on numerous occasions, hammered and humiliated in Europe, knocked out of cups a good few times by lower division teams, pathetic performance after pathetic performance, big money spent on players we didn?t need, fallouts with nearly every striker we?ve had, tactics that defy belief and now our support is clearly dwindling.

And yet somehow the deluded Evertonians keep saying everything is fine just because we have finished top of the Premiership average pile, usually because our best run of results in a season came when we had injuries to the players the manager and the deluded Evertonians rate so highly.

Moyes can do no wrong, the chairman even got applauded earlier on this season after our only remaining effective creative central midfield player was sold to Arsenal. Now we have half the crowd going hysterical because a player does his party piece pirouette like a performing seal only to ultimately lose possession of the ball anyway. Other clubs supporters applaud players for going on an exciting run or having a shot on goal, or chasing back with determination to make a great tackle.

All last season, on this website, and on the radio station for the deluded, there was an incessant cry that Arteta was shit and Fellaini was brilliant. Idiots were saying Arteta could leave as we don?t need him. They got their wish and look what?s happened. We are now left with a midfield that can?t create a single chance during a game. The only inspiration comes from our left back and a makeshift right midfielder.

The over hyped Fellaini had one of his better games on Sunday but still failed to create anything and when we meet opponents who take the game to us his performance falls away but the bandwagon about how good he is just rolls on. He is not the great defensive midfielder he is hyped up to be and the main benefit we get from him is when he is pushed forward. Let?s have some realism please.

And the Moyes myth keeps getting fed by a stupid local media and people who believe everything they read or hear. It?s a joke.

Thank god for the Blackburn luck, for the Bolton 10 men, for Bobby Zamora's missed chance, for somehow getting past Wolves. It could have been so much worse and it still might if this delusional nonsense carries on for much longer.

And the other bandwagons. Since Arteta left it?s been Rodwell is shit(I hope he starts v Arsenal), Coleman is shit, Cahill is finished. These are three of our better players, leave them alone.

Meanwhile the obvious talent of Barkley is overlooked in favour of the labouring centre midfielders who played on Sunday. And if he does get a chance he?s played out of position. We could have a decent team out there on the pitch if only we had a decent manager who recognizes that he should put out a balanced team with players playing to their strengths and if this means leaving out a couple of the so called senior players so be it.

There was false optimism which was growing pace going into Everton's game on Sunday because of two wins on the bounce but I woke up on Sunday with a horrible knot in my stomach because I knew Stoke would be harder opposition than Wolves or Bolton. Not because I'm a pessimist but because I'm a relist and anyone who watched the Wolves and Bolton games should have known the problems we'd have against Stoke. Besides Stokes aerial threat they should have known that Ozzy would have a nice touch here and there but would lose the ball here and there too and would be knocked off the ball too easily, unable to impose himself on the game.

Fellaini would get the ball trot forward and touch it to someone else for them to do something. If we lost position he wouldn't bomb it back like Peter Reid or even Lee Carsley as it's not his game. Vellios would struggle as he is still learning and wouldn't get much service anyhow. Billy would be played, would be nervous and aware that half the crowd was waiting for his first mistake. Throw in Moyes's tactics and I knew it was going to be a bad afternoon. Just like the start of the season when all the deluded ones were saying we'll get nine points out of the first nine and couldn't understand how the hell QPR beat us. It's the same old same.

I care deeply about Everton Football Club and that is my motivation for writing this and I will still be paying my money long after Moyes has finally gone.

I believe Moyes would have gone a long time ago if people hadn't fallen for the biggest bandwagon of all - 'he's not been given any money'. Reading, Brentford, Oldham, Shrewsbury, they were all big spenders weren't they!
Ged Dwyer, Liverpool     Posted 06/12/2011 at 17:38:43

back Return to the Mail Bag  :  Add your Comments back

Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Nick Entwistle
1   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:32:17

Report abuse

A load of loose threads woven into rope to hang Moyes by.

...and don't assume support for Moyes is one and the same with the chairman.
Jamie Sweet
2   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:22:02

Report abuse

Apologist / Delusional response to above article:

"But who could possibly do better Ged? Nobody. See, hah! Be careful what you wish for, would you rather we were like Blackpool? No, exactly, you're talking rubbish lad. How can you expect us to get a shot on target at home against the mighty Stoke when we've got no money? Players capable of creating chances and shooting the ball don't just grow on trees you know, they actually cost money. We have no money, therefore we can't create chances and shoot the ball. Don't you think Moyes knows what he's doing. He sees the players all week in training and you don't so he must know the best team to put out and you don't... blah blah blah".

How people can watch Sunday's game and still defend our manager and his tactics and general approach to the game of football, is beyond me.
Andy Crooks
3   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:33:37

Report abuse

Excellent stuff Ged. Moyes has a charmed life in the media. I can actually recall MOTD pundits saying that Walter Smith was doing a great job against the odds. They just don't attack managers and their praise is pretty meaningless.I don't think that David Moyes can offer us anything now other than slow decline. The club needs a massive boost and in the absence of Kenwright's departure a new coach is the best answer. Let's get away from fear.
Luke O'Farrell
4   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:39:36

Report abuse

How can you tear into Fellaini and yet praise Cahill and Coleman?

Cahill has been poor for the majority of the season; Bolton aside and Coleman is a right back playing in midfield. The lad tries hard, but has no final shot / pass in his locker.

Fellaini and Baines are the only two who actually look for possession, week in, week out. The majority of the time the other 9 shy away from the ball or going missing.

The only valid point in this rant, is the loss of Arteta. Anybody who thinks the loss of your most creative player, is good business, needs their head examining.

Fellaini was never brought here to take Arteta's place, so you can't have a go at him for not being that type of player. It's like slating Drenthe for not being Phil Neville.

Brendan McLaughlin
5   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:46:29

Report abuse

Errr..Andy #3
I can actually recall Andy Crooks defending Wally Smith on this site?
James Martin
6   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:47:52

Report abuse

I agree with most of this thread, especially the Fellaini bandwagon, never has there been so much hype over one average player, he's not even fit to lace the boots of Lee Carsley let alone Pienaar or Arteta. Aside from hits I think the delusional optimists on here may just be cancelled out by the ridiculous pessimists such as yourself.
Chris Butler
7   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:53:04

Report abuse

Arteta was useless after his return from injury, he created nothing. He has unsurprisingly done well since he left Everton due to the over-defensive attiude of Moyes. Agree with most of the rest though.
Paul Olsen
8   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:00:48

Report abuse

You lost me when your rant went into Fellaini is average gear.

So many players in this crummy side to pick on, and you go and pick out one of our two best players.

Fellaini is quality, but as you have already found out on your own he is not a playmaker. Sadly that is now supposed to be Osman. Well done there Sherlock.
Peter Fearon
9   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:35:02

Report abuse

Agree with you Ged, Fellaini is overhyped, overrated, overpriced and overpaid. He is a big clumsy get and does little more than block the light. To think that we got Bilyaletdinov and Fellaini for what Chelsea paid for Juan Mata! What wouldn't I give to see a player like that in an Everton shirt! However being an Evertonian these days is all about the weekly triumph of hope over experience.
Peter Fearon
10   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:06:45

Report abuse

Oh and Luke - #4 Wasn't that what Moyes was doing the other day? Slagging off Drenthe for not being Phil Neville?
Ian Edwards
11   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:07:11

Report abuse

I agree with James.

Fellaini is vastly over rated. As a holding midfield player he is poor. He gives the back four no protection and is why we cant keep a clean sheet.

He brings nothing to the team offensively save 3 goals a season. He give far too many free kicks away. A complete waste of £15M and a huge drain on the wage bill.

Midfield ( with all fit) should be Rodwell holding with Coleman on the right, Drenthe on the left with Barkley in the centre.
Wayne McNee
12   Posted 06/12/2011 at 22:34:37

Report abuse

I agree will all you say Ged. Although I do think Cahills best days are well behind him ( excellent pro as he has been ).

There's so many different arguments going on about this subject right now & I'm torn as to what my final stance is?

BK & DM both need to go, that's for sure! But it's as if they're the same entity & need to be removed simultaneously? I don't know whether that can happen? BK won't get rid of DM & DM's happy ( un-happy by his demeanour ) to sit it out on what, let's face it is a package above his ability. Buy out? My arse! Like you & every other fan, I've come here & all the other sites, every few hours, every day in hope of something or someone to take this club, back where it belongs. Whether that be movement in players, boardroom or management. It's actually tiring me to do all this trawling & I've noticed myself go from a regular "reader" to a sporadic "poster" as form of release. It's like AA!

So Ken/oyes out! Who would replace precious Davey? I don't give a fuck, maybe Davey from 10 years ago? Fresh, enthusiastic! So let's do that again? Someone up & coming, doesn't mind a challenge, doesn't mind no transfer budget but would appreciate a shot! When DM came he was unproven in the Premiership & had nothing to show on his CV. Besides keeping what is still a big club with a legendary 12th man at home in the league it belongs, it remains the same. Still Bill would have to push the eject button & there's no chance of that. The current situation suits all involved at present & I'm sure it pains them but it's all about the personal gains of individuals, some of whom really don't give a toss. Along as it stays like this then nobody cares what I write on fans forums.

Good to get it off my chest now & again & throw "IMO" in to cover myself.



Ryan Holroyd
13   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:02:52

Report abuse

Can only agree with Luke.

To have a go at Fellaini and praise Cahill... Baines, Fellaini and Saha are the only three who can take the ball under pressure and go forward with it.

Fellaini is a totally different player to Carsley as well. Carsley, whilst a good blocker, couldn't pass a ball to save his life. I lost count the amount of times he panicked under pressure and hoofed the ball along or sliced it under pressure.

It was a terrible 'footballing' decision to sell Arteta for £10million pounds. I said so at the time. Any decent, well run club would have a replacement lined up, not sell him on transfer deadling day at 1 min to the deadline.

It's hardly any wonder the football has been so shite this season after selling your best two creative players and not replacing them.
Luke O'Farrell
14   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:17:48

Report abuse

Peter

He did but then that doesn't make it right, does it? Do Chelsea ask Mata to become a work horse? Does Ashley Young do it at United?

Fellaini is the only one of our midfield who is willing to look for the ball; Osman was invisible on Sunday and he's meant to be the creative one!!

You knock him for various reasons and yet, he has performed to a better level than all our other midfielders; over the last month or so.

Surely they deserve criticism, if anyone does?

When players are playing well, by all means knock them. Don't knock one of the few who is willing to actually stand up and be counted.
Sam Hoare
15   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:25:39

Report abuse

Not much original here to be honest.

'We've been hammered at home on numerous occasions, hammered away on numerous occasions, hammered and humiliated in Europe, knocked out of cups a good few times by lower division teams, pathetic performance after pathetic performance, big money spent on players we didn?t need, fallouts with nearly every striker we?ve had, tactics that defy belief and now our support is clearly dwindling.'

Is this not true of nearly every Premiership club apart from Rich 4?! This is every football fan's lament in the country.

And having a pop at fellaini while defending Cahill suggests to me that either you haven't been watching this season or you haven't been watching properly.
Richard Dodd
16   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:25:37

Report abuse

Lose at home to Stoke and the manager`s another wally ? win a couple on the trot and he`s a fecking genius! Such is the life of a Premier League coach.

I warn you all, in five years time you will rue the day you hounded this good, highly talented man out of Goodison Park.
Tony Marsh
17   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:33:39

Report abuse

Well said, Ged. You are right, it is the delusional fans who are proping up the twats that run the club. They are also killing us but don't know it. We are becoming more of a laughing stock with each passing week.

Pityfull up front and at the back, we are as bad as I have seen for years. How on Earth can any Evertonian defend a muppet like Moyes and expect to be taken seriously?

Moyes is anti-football... which to me equates to anti-Everton... which means he should be long gone.
James Flynn
18   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:55:55

Report abuse

Wow Ged. You haven't been issued a gun permit I hope. Have your doctor up your meds.

We have a simple (Couldn't be simpler) problem. Everything is about paying the due bills every month. Nothing else. Certainly not about football.

The bills are heavy and due. That's why we are where we are.
Tom Bowers
19   Posted 06/12/2011 at 23:51:24

Report abuse

You are correct with your comments Ged.
How can any manager keep faith with picking almost the same 11 week in week out and getting the same miserable performances even if they snatch a win occasionally?
Moyes is the luckiest manager in the Prem.along with several of his favourite players who have been recognised by most Everton fans as no longer good enough and I am sorry Timmie but you are now one of them.
Performance and results are what get the accolades and not something you did many years ago which many think turned the club around but we have gone nowhere and achieved nothing
The team was a shambles when Joe Royle took over and in his first season we won the cup!
Sure, money may help compete in the big market for many overpriced ''stars'' but Moyes has paid big money for some crap in recent years.
His problem is not having any faith in his reserves but surely they cannot be as poor as the team he keeps selecting.
With all the crap that has ever been selected for England has anyone ever asked why Osman has never even been close to getting any kind of cap and yet has played for years under Moyes week in week out. Only Moyes thinks he cannot be dropped.
James Flynn
20   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:00:36

Report abuse

Wayne (11) - I don't root for a manager or player. I root for the team. Some want Moyes out, some don't (I'm in that group). Either way, I don't care.

The only and entire reason we're in this position is poor ownership. That's it. Not Moyes. We need a new owner(s).
Paul Ferry
21   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:07:16

Report abuse

Jeez, where to start? Peter Fearon: you talk bollocks about Fellaini, and much else besides, and if he left us Teta style to go to greener fields with a manager who has tactical nous, a dash of flair and dare, and a creative streak, Fella would be an even better player than he showed us on Sunday.

James Flynn: quite frankly, you are deluded: 'The only and entire reason we're in this position is poor ownership. That's it. Not Moyes'. Utter crap. So, Kenshite picks the team, decides tactics, decides where to play people, makes substitutions, follows the progress of the game and reacts to it, makes half-time talks, talks down our chances before a ball is even kicked, thinks that back tracking is as important as flair wing play, parks all our players in the box when defending corners, raps players on the knuckles in public, creates a general air of doom and gloom, does not stand up to his chairman, plays Osman, plays Neville, plays Cahill, does not play ...., I could go on. Utter bollocks James and your Moyes myopia and back slapping is the real reason why we were served up what we got on Black Sunday.

I'll ask you these questions, that I have asked other Moyes backers, but have not yet hand an answer.

'Just how long are you prepared to put up with Moyes? What will it take you to believe like so many others that the ginger dud needs to go? Do you have your own limits beyond which if Moyes goes you will write 'Moyes Out'. Answers please, and don't do your usual narrow-minded status quo supporting and completely negative 'it's the best we can do' or 'the best that he can do'.
Paul Ferry
22   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:07:16

Report abuse

Jeez, where to start? Peter Fearon: you talk bollocks about Fellaini, and much else besides, and if he left us Teta style to go to greener fields with a manager who has tactical nous, a dash of flair and dare, and a creative streak, Fella would be an even better player than he showed us on Sunday.

James Flynn: quite frankly, you are deluded: 'The only and entire reason we're in this position is poor ownership. That's it. Not Moyes'. Utter crap. So, Kenshite picks the team, decides tactics, decides where to play people, makes substitutions, follows the progress of the game and reacts to it, makes half-time talks, talks down our chances before a ball is even kicked, thinks that back tracking is as important as flair wing play, parks all our players in the box when defending corners, raps players on the knuckles in public, creates a general air of doom and gloom, does not stand up to his chairman, plays Osman, plays Neville, plays Cahill, does not play ...., I could go on. Utter bollocks James and your Moyes myopia and back slapping is the real reason why we were served up what we got on Black Sunday.

I'll ask you these questions, that I have asked other Moyes backers, but have not yet hand an answer.

'Just how long are you prepared to put up with Moyes? What will it take you to believe like so many others that the ginger dud needs to go? Do you have your own limits beyond which if Moyes goes you will write 'Moyes Out'. Answers please, and don't do your usual narrow-minded status quo supporting and completely negative 'it's the best we can do' or 'the best that he can do'.
Wayne McNee
23   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:07:08

Report abuse

James #16
I root for the club as whole & as an institution.
I myself ( whether anyone else can, I don't care ) see an unhealthy, unusual relationship between chairman & manager. I don't like it & it's not good business for the club. DM has been put on a pedestal by his employer which gives him a certain amount of leeway. His high standing is attributed to his "magic" in the transfer market. " Gems for Peanuts"... Which funnily enough is what we now sell players for. Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar... That's along time ago. Also he was lauded for working wonders with a limited budget... That's along time ago. I'm amazed anyone can agree with recent tactics, attitude, enthusiasm & decision making by our manager. This sort of mindset doesn't change over night or with new ownership. In all likelihood new owners would also want rid. Put on paper it's not a great C.V. I know Jocks, Hoops fans who once liked the DM prophecy of a return home but would avoid it like the plague now.
Andy Crooks
24   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:28:43

Report abuse

Brendan, I knew you'd be on with that response,I just knew it. I actually believe in Walter's case the pundits were right but I thought you might be having a night off, in which case my point would have sneaked successfully by.
Jimmy Sørheim
25   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:14:17

Report abuse

As your heading suggest you are utmost correct, BUT you ramble on Fellaini being shit and Cahill being so good he must be left alone. I think you got a bit ahead of yourself there with the player arguments.
Now where I did agree with you and applaud you is on the fact that Moyes can do nothing wrong, both in the eyes of media and the fans.
Fans have to stick up for the club if nobody else will!
Here, at Everton we currently do NOTHING.
Why is that???
Why is Moyes so Sir David Moyes like even without the Sir title, yes it is because of the media, and the chairman.
The fans then has to digest this and find it to be true or not.

I find all this Moyes is the best there is crap to be insulting.
It is just like saying there is only one God and that is Moyes, dont you dare belive in any other God.

It is time for a annual look back at what exactly Moyes has achieved at this club.
It was good it the beginning and the middle, but now at the end it is the worst I can remember ever.
Moyes has dragged us down by buying crap like Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga, while selling our two biggest historic contributors Arteta and Yakubu.
Put in simpler terms he has sold our backbone.
Pienaar was a part of it also but he was in his last 6 months playing contract so that could be defended. The selling of Arteta and Yakubu simply can not.
I firmly belive that Yakubu was and is worth at least 8 million, and that Arteta is worth at least 15 million.
The price is one thing, but these two players historic meaning to what Moyes did manage to build was quickly handed out for reduced prices, and as quick as a fart, so that there was NO TIME to get in a replacement.
Moyes has publicly taken the blame for selling Arteta, and also Yakubu, now it is time he be held accountable for selling and giving away these two important first team players.
Who will hold him up to judgement, the media? I dont think so. The fans MUST react NOW.
James Flynn
26   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:25:30

Report abuse

Paul (17-18) - Few men would have so little to say and yet say it twice. Congrats!

"James Flynn: quite frankly, you are deluded: 'The only and entire reason we're in this position is poor ownership. That's it. Not Moyes'. Utter crap"

Every professional winning team, any sport, wins because of good ownership. Just like every shitty team sucks because of ownership. Not the manager. We're not shitty yet, Moyes is fighting that.

Now ownership (not Moyes) has sold off the key offensive assets for fees and to reduce payroll because of our debts to the bank.

Moyes has returned to what he had when he arrived. Play close and hope for the 3 points, but play for at least the one point and avoid relegation.

When I came in with Landon 2 years ago, EFC was taking on every top team, week in and out, and winning or drawing. Back to front, exciting soccer.

Landon included, name the attacking fellows we have left. Moyes got himself a team for other teams to truly fear and respect and it went away as fast as it came.

Because of money. Money! MONEY!!!!!!

You don't want Moyes as manager? Fine. I favor Moyes myself, but I'm for Everton, not any manager or player particularly. We need a change of ownership, Moyes included or not.
Mark Riding
27   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:47:37

Report abuse

Outside of the city / national match going fanbase.. people think Moyes is the business..
Im not mega anti-Moyes, but if he was so good someone would have poached him by now.
One up front and no-one up when opposition get a corner pisses me off.
Mark Riding
28   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:51:06

Report abuse

Landon Donavan aint fucking Pele by the way.. good player, yes.. season changer.. no !
Wayne McNee
29   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:11:52

Report abuse

I've never heard ANY feedback, good or bad from a player who has left this club about Moyes management approach, style or attitude? Has anyone ever heard anything? That would be interesting.
James Flynn
30   Posted 07/12/2011 at 00:49:59

Report abuse

Wayne (19) - "I myself ( whether anyone else can, I don't care ) see an unhealthy, unusual relationship between chairman & manager".

Unhealthy how? Perhaps, as an American, I don't value this perception of professional sports managers/coaches supposedly have. They're employees of a going concern. That's it.

Does anyone think SAF will tell ManU ownership "If I don't have 100 million in the next transfer window, I quit" without ownership telling him "We don't have those funds available. Are you sure? Well, thanks and best of luck in the future"? He's, like Moyes, Mourhino, Pep etal, a fucking employee.

I admit I do not understand this mystical auara surrounding an employee's power over owners of business. The business being soccer and the employee being the manager of the team.

We're all pissed off over current conditions. Aim it where it needs to be aimed, EFC ownership. EFC has an ownership problem, not manager problem (Moyes or anyone else hired in his place).
James Flynn
31   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:17:09

Report abuse

Wayne (25) - "I've never heard ANY feedback, good or bad from a player who has left this club about Moyes management approach, style or attitude? Has anyone ever heard anything? That would be interesting.).

Good post. Especially the Yak, since so many claim Moyes "coached" attacking out of him. Moyes, the only manager gave Yak a multi-year run at sucess.
Jamie Sweet
32   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:16:30

Report abuse

Wayne - Have you seen him when he's angry... man he looks scary. I would never slag off Moyes if I thought he might be able to track me down! You also see instances like Arteta recently who takes subtle digs without actually saying he was a stubborn boring miserable bastard who sucked the life out of his creative and attacking tendencies.

And yes James Flynn is deluded. Yes money is a factor in all of this, it has to be... but to suggest that it is the ONLY factor without opening your mind up to the fact that things like tactics, team morale, effective use of your substitutes etc (things that Moyes is responsible for) affect the outcome of a game of football, is utter nonsense. James, at the risk of sounding patronising, perhaps the fact that you only "came in with Landon 2 years ago" is a reason why you aren't quite up to speed with how football should be played. Before your time, Moyes had some relative success at the club (finishing 4th) under the same owner we have now. How the hell did he do that if teams only win games "because of good ownership". Utter nonsense.
James Flynn
33   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:33:56

Report abuse

Mark (24) - "Landon Donavan aint fucking Pele by the way".

Appreciate you upping Landon from the "He's no Messi" chorus. Landon and Messi in the same sentence, I can handle. But Landon and Pele in the same sentence?

Many thanks from an American.
Eric Myles
34   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:31:26

Report abuse

Ged, sounds like you've been hanging out with Tony Marsh?

Agree with you about Fellaini although he has been our best player in 2 games this season, or were the others so bad they made him look good?

Coleman is not a winger, he offers no more going forward than Hibbert does and often looks to Hibbert to get him out of trouble.

Cahill is knackered, he needs a rest from international duty and from some club duty as well.

Other than that, pretty much spot on. Our main problem is that we don't have other players to come in when our 'best' players are underperforming.
James Flynn
35   Posted 07/12/2011 at 01:38:52

Report abuse

Jamie (28) - "And yes James Flynn is deluded. Yes money is a factor in all of this".

So am I deluded or not?

Money is everything and we don't have it. So, I'm at least semi-deluded, kinda-deluded, sorta-deluded? How about reduced-priced deluded?

EFC has dumped its best offensive players to make money/reduce payroll. Who's deluded?

Not me. We need new ownership.
Peter Fearon
36   Posted 07/12/2011 at 02:41:07

Report abuse

Luke O'Farrell - you are 100% right about there being plenty of fuel for criticism to go around. I was simply agreeing with Ged specifically about Fellaini. Coleman - Osman - Cahill - Bilyaletdinov and others need a roasting. It's not Fellaini's fault that his modest talents come at such a high price in the modern game. But modest those talents remain.
Mick Davies
37   Posted 07/12/2011 at 02:33:20

Report abuse

Eric Myles, please get a grip "Coleman is not a winger, he offers no more going forward than Hibbert does and often looks to Hibbert to get him out of trouble." that has to be the most ridiculous thing i've ever read on any website. Hibbert is the worst defender ever to wear a blue shirt and if you had ever watched Everton you'd notice Coleman and Jags covering the useless bastard's arse in every game. He is up front more than Coleman anyway and in 10 years, how many goals has he scored and how many games has he changed? In just a couple of years, how many goals has Seamus scored and games has he changed, starting with his sub appearance v. Spurs?
Jamie Sweet
38   Posted 07/12/2011 at 03:13:14

Report abuse

Ok James #31, I concede you are only semi-deluded. You have identified part of the problem sure, but to think that Moyes is entirely blameless for performances like we put up against Stoke keeps you in the delusional group even if you're not a full member. (Full members of the group believe Moyes AND Kenwright can do no wrong. Those folk are seriously delusional!)
Paul Ferry
39   Posted 07/12/2011 at 03:57:02

Report abuse

'When I came in with Landon 2 years ago'. Says it all James Flynn;explains all your deluded Moyeism. Leave it for the life-long die-hard Evertonians to talk about our club, and, by the way, answer the three questions that I put to you. Jeez, I will not be lectured about Everton by a Flynn Johnny-come-lately Ian Ross type figure. Don't forget James to preface each one of your posts with I 'came in with Landon 2 years ago', and you are not NOT in a position to talk about the last decade-and-a-half of Moyes. And, answer my question.
Paul Ferry
40   Posted 07/12/2011 at 04:11:03

Report abuse

apologies - ought to read last decade and a half of moyes, important to point out as Johnny-come-lately Flynn noticed that my post was posted twice, but not by me all of two year long Flynn, but in America, where I suspect you come from, that's enough for tradition, right?
Paul Ferry
41   Posted 07/12/2011 at 04:15:26

Report abuse

crap, I'm so pissed about being told/taught about my beloved Everton - a love now 45 years long - by a Johnny-come-lately-Yank that I can't write last decade and one balf-year of Moyes
David Barks
42   Posted 07/12/2011 at 04:15:31

Report abuse

Paul Ferry,

If all you want is life long Evertonians who have supported the club for decades, then you will have a club who dies with it's fan base. Do you know why the likes of United and Liverpool and Arsenal are able to compete and make so much fucking money? Because they don't think small and only cater to the "life-long die-hard" supporters like you. They think bigger. It's actually extremely beneficial to attract a new audience. If all you can think of is to criticize anyone who chose to support this club who has no chance of winning a fucking thing no matter what manager you put in charge, over the likes of Manchester United or City, then you and those who think like you will continue to drive Everton down to a small "town supported" club. God forbid we attract new followers and they want to have a say about the club. What a horrible idea. I can see them teaching that in business 101: "The key to a successful business is to never attract new clients, and put down any potential client who shows interest in your company". So wise.
Eric Myles
43   Posted 07/12/2011 at 05:00:52

Report abuse

Mick #33, that's my point, Hibbert is up front more than Coleman is because Coleman runs down blind alleys.

In Sunday's game he was looking to Hibbert to run down the line so he could get the ball forward, or was passing back to him to get himself out of trouble.

Hibbert shouldn't be in that position but he has to be as 'wonder boy' Coleman isn't good enough.
Eric Myles
44   Posted 07/12/2011 at 05:09:02

Report abuse

David #38 What a horrible idea. I can see them teaching that in business 101: "The key to a successful business is to never attract new clients, and put down any potential client who shows interest in your company".

Sound like the Business School that Kenwright went to.
Jason Heng
45   Posted 07/12/2011 at 05:35:09

Report abuse

We are in a slow decline.

But do people realise that Moyes is actually SLOWING down the decline and doing a good job?

Fact is there was never any major investment after Kenwright took over the club. So if there is a delusion, an illusion of sorts ? it is down to Moyes for actually leading fans to believe for a while, we were on the ascent.
Noel Lynam
46   Posted 07/12/2011 at 07:52:02

Report abuse

James Flynn @ 22,

You say "Moyes has returned to what he had when he arrived. Play close and hope for the 3 points, but play for at least the one point and avoid relegation.

When I came in with Landon 2 years ago, EFC was taking on every top team, week in and out, and winning or drawing. Back to front, exciting soccer."

That's just it - when Moyes arrived he wasn't playing "close" (?) and hoping for the 3 points. He was sending his teams out with a positive attitude, attacking teams, going for the throat. It was a breath of fresh air compared to how things had gone under the previous manager. Therein lies the importance of the manager. And make no mistake, he is there to manage. Right now - and for some time - Moyes' demeanour, words and actions have been anything but positive.

James, you also claim you "root for the team" and not a player or manager/coach. Yet you "came in with Landon". Interesting one....

As others have pointed out, and with all due respect, Everton Football Club has been around long before you, me, Moyes and Kenwright.

The football club model in Britain is different to continental football clubs and indeed American sports, in that the manager usually tells the chairman who he wants to sign. Finances of course play a huge part but Moyes has more control over who comes and goes than most. It's an indictment on him that after nearly ten years in charge, he has an unbalanced squad with very few creative players or strikers. This is not something the mainstream media will highlight because it's like an old boys club of ex pros and journos looking to keep clubs onside. Just look at Fergie and the BBC for an example of what happens when a few home truths are brought into the public eye.
Eric Myles
47   Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:37:17

Report abuse

"It's an indictment on him that after nearly ten years in charge, he has an unbalanced squad with very few creative players or strikers."

Even though he's had to sell the creative players and strikers he had to pay off the banks and reduce the wage bill? And can't bring in replacements due to lack of money?
Peter Laing
48   Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:43:39

Report abuse

"now our support is clearly dwindling", in my opinion that is the acid test on the current state of affairs at Everton. 4-5000 season ticket sales down on last season, promotional offers coming through the post buy one ticket for Norwich get a half price ticket for Swansea. We didnt even sell out for the derby or Manchester Utd at home. Why are so many fans choosing to stay away and from the comments from many who post on here myself included going to watch Everton these days is becoming a chore. The Club is stale and stagnating, start at the top and work your way down for the reasons why we are where we are.
Chad Schofield
49   Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:25:04

Report abuse

James, without wanting to trample on you too hard, #31 with the delusional question... you only needed to carry on from the bit you quoted:

" Yes money is a factor in all of this, it has to be... but to suggest that it is the ONLY factor without opening your mind up to the fact that things like tactics, team morale, effective use of your substitutes etc (things that Moyes is responsible for) affect the outcome of a game of football, is utter nonsense."

Aside from reiterating what others have said about Cahill (should be dropped and used as impact sub on current form) and Fellaini (quality, but not a playmaker - or striker for that matter) Ged, I agree with you.

Personally, while I am extremely frustrated with Moyes, I do actually agree with James Flynn's overall sentiment - that it's owners rather than manger who needs to go... at least first. Hopefully that would regain Moyes' spark, and I believe he deserves a chance, however I can see where people are coming from and after ten years, if he were handed money we'd probably still be serving the same shite.

It most certainly is not all about money though, it's about the right attitude as well. Bizarrely given Pete's comment #9, berating players for not being Phil Neville seems to be something Moyes actively thinks of as coaching.
Stephen Kenny
50   Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:50:11

Report abuse

Moyes, the only manager gave Yak a multi-year run at sucess.

James, The Yak was first choice at every single club he played for, bar Everton.

Stop spouting nonsense!
John Ford
51   Posted 07/12/2011 at 10:01:23

Report abuse

Another selective scatter gun approach to the Moyes 'issue'. The revisionist stuff regarding Cahill, Arteta and Yak is weak and without foundation, we all know what the truth is over the past two seasons, and Cahill's rather sad decline this year.

Moyes has weaknesses but the bottom line is he has the best record in the Premier League of any club outside of the money elite. That means he has done more with his resources than most.

Finishing 5th to 8th in our circumstances is impressive. It's completely unrealistic to expect Everton to finish top four. This is the sad reality.

Highlighting defeats in this period is counter productive because the vast majority of other teams have lost considerably more than we have. Based on the past seven years, there isn't a team outside the money who wouldn't swap with us, certainly in terms of league achievement.

This season has been dire, but Moyes carries only partial responsibility. I've said it before, all the bullshit about formations; Barkley, Vellios, Stracq, Gueye playing or not playing; two strikers; 4-5-1 etc etc is meaningless. How many times have people here said "My god why can' Moyes see he needs to pick x, y, z"? ? then, when he does, it makes zip difference. That's because at the moment we're just not good enough, whichever 11 we have..

Stop pissing and focus on our real problem which is Kenwright and the board who are neutering our club.
Tony J Williams
52   Posted 07/12/2011 at 10:48:56

Report abuse

I like the bandwagon on "Moyes is shit, a coward and inept and does nothing right....LIKE EVERRRR!" or the "Player Apologist" bandwagan.

I am considering joining the player one, as it's dead easy. Find no faults in the overpaid prima donnas and lay the blame directly at the door of the manager, no matter how bad a sitter / mis-timed tackle / own-goal / sliced clearance etc they do.

It's all Moyes's fault, even though we are told how shit our players are week-in, week-out; he should be having them beat everyone before him.

Then again, all we need is a goal, desire and belief apparently.

Ged, just one aside: No-one, I repeat, no-one has ever suggested that Moyes can do no wrong. The posters titled 'apologists' are usually arguing against a point that is so wrong to blame Moyes for. There are plenty of valid points to criticise him for but they peep up when made-up / inappropriate ones are used.
GJ Butler
53   Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:05:58

Report abuse

Noel @ 41. I agree when Moyes first came on the scene it was indeed a breath of fresh air. His tactics to begin with were a little gung ho and dare I say exciting.

Fast forward 10 years ? City have had two new owners, the 2nd of which is spending like no football club has done in history, Liverpool have had 2 owners and have spent freely, Arsenal have moved to a new stadium, United have changed ownership and grown globally while Chelsea continue to pump money into their side - to name just the 'big 4'.

The game's changed in 10 years, and I can't help feeling sorry for Moyes (the £65k a week aside). A promising young manager whose ship seems to have sailed. Did he suck the life out of Everton, or Everton and suck the life out of him?

For me, the problem is modern day football. I am quckly loosing interest. We need a billionaire owner, and even if we found one, would success be as sweet? Can a city fan really gloat when their team lost £100m + last year alone? To sound like a five-year-old - it's just not fair. The game needs a radical makeover and that's the real problem.

As for the direct comments about Moyes ? crap substitutions, tactically inept, etc ? football's all about opinions and you'll never please everyone. For what it's worth, there's three football teams I support and watch regularly, and all three managers are under pressure from fans.

As an Irishman, our manager is the most negative we've ever had and his selections are sometimes baffling, yet we qualified for the Euros.

As a Dubliner, I support Shamrock Rovers ? we've just won back-to-back leagues and qualified for the Europa league knock-out stages (further than any other Irish team has ever gone), and the majority of the fans want Michael O'Neill sacked due to poor standard of football with the players at his disposal.

My point, the Everton problem is much deepr than Moyes picking Osman...
Tony J Williams
54   Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:47:13

Report abuse

"For me, the problem is modern day football. I am quckly loosing interest" - That's my problem too.

I hardly watch other matches anymore. The only ones I watch now are the games in the pub before our matches.

The league is boring and the style of play has dropped. The only team I used to love watching, Arsenal, are no longer the free passing tippity tappity team anymore.

It's a lot more to do now with put it to the wing for Walcott to get onto.....or simply leave everything to Van Persie.

I am bored with English footy as a whole, not just Everton.
Peter Laing
55   Posted 07/12/2011 at 12:06:41

Report abuse

Agree Tony, this season I did not renew my season ticket for the first time in over 10 years and have recently cancelled my sky subs. We have had 20 years of the SKY / EPL boom and the product on offer these days is becoming very bland and predictable. I suppose if we were in Manchester City's position we would be riding the crest of the wave and looking at football differently, for me though these days its just not it once was.
Noel Lynam
56   Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:31:59

Report abuse

Eric @ 47,

"Even though he's had to sell the creative players and strikers he had to pay off the banks and reduce the wage bill? And can't bring in replacements due to lack of money?"

Moyes has repeatedly told us nobody leaves the club without his say so. Which to me, means one of two things:

1. He's being honest and therefore has full autonomy over which players are sold (Note: not whether player sales need to take place, but which players he chooses to sell) and has then overseen the sales of these creative players and strikers, knowing he either could not bring in replacements or has not replaced them with what money he has had to spend.

2. He's bullshitting and is therefore a puppet for Kenwright, the board etc. If this is the case, then he should have had the balls to walk long ago, much like Joe Royle did when refused the funds to buy Tore Andre Flo, all those years ago. Instead he has stayed either out of some misguided sense of loyalty or to pick up his £56k (or whatever it is) a week.



Neither scenario reflects terribly well on him.

My point is that over the course of almost ten years, he now has (and has had) an imbalanced squad, which he is directly responsible for, even with the mitigating financial constraints.
Jimmy Sørheim
57   Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:26:24

Report abuse

True, there is a shift in Money power. But the simple truth is that Moyes's transfer dealings over the last two years have gotten us into trouble. Money spent on Bily and Heitinga was wasted, when we needed a winger like Donovan. Then two players (Arteta and Yak) that were a BIG part of Moyes's good history are sold, three if you include Pienaar. We have no history of quality players in this team; the only player who is good enough is Baines.

My main problem is what was David Moyes thinking when allowing Arteta to go, and giving Yakubu away for free, only to go on record and COMPLAIN "We lack creativity." "We need a top striker who can score."

To me it seems Moyes was drunk while conducting these transfers, as he now complains about his own actions... it all just makes me wonder if Moyes has gone mad.
Tony J Williams
58   Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:04:22

Report abuse

"To me it seems Moyes was drunk while conducting these transfers" - Don't worry Jimmy I am not your internet stalker, I just read all the threads.

You have said the same now on nearly every thread today about Moyes being at fault for the transfers and I or someone else has responded with their thoughts, yet again you trot out the same issue here.

It is evidently clear from the leaked e-mails (which seem to be real, as Rossy has received the Spanish Archer) that the banks were dictating the transfers. Each transfer you mention was forced (apart from the Yak, which in a sense was still forced because he was playing shite for us) either by necessity or by the player handing in a transfer request.

Moel, I think it is more than likely to be the first but when the players ask to leave, there's not much anyone can do to make them stay. He didn't rate Beckford, he knew Vaughan was a crock, Yak had gone backwards, Pienaar wanted off, Arteta wanted out after hearing about the offer Moyes turned down, Lesctt was Lescott.

Thant's a lot of our core and better players gone and they have never been replaced. The last time Moyes had money to spend was the Lescott affair, which was in 2009, he panic bought and 33.333% was shite. Heitinga is a good player and Distin has been good for us. Bily ....well we will never know as he has never been played in his rightful position and I doubt he will before he is shipped out.
Paul Ferry
59   Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:57:02

Report abuse

David Barks (love the name): what you say is entirely fair but my comments were made in a specific situation dealing with a specific post.

Needless to say, I'm happy to have new fans any time of the day; there are some born every day, I'm sure. Also, all in favour of a world-wide base for us. But. to reiterate, I have less respect for the views of someone who hopped on board coz LD joined us and, while in a position to talk through experience about EFC since then, is not in as good a position as me to talk about the full unwinding horror of the Moyes decade.

And once more: the argument that Moyes is not to be blamed for anything at all betrays someone with no idea of football. If it's a defensible point, then Mr Flynn ought to defend it, not simply pour out a string of generalizations. And, he might also have the presence of mind and deep blue spirit to answer the very reasonable questions I put to him and all other myopic negative Moyes supporters.,
James Flynn
60   Posted 07/12/2011 at 17:06:25

Report abuse

Paul (39) - I've thought about this. Since you allude to anyone disagreeing with you as delusional in some form or another, I prefer you refer to me as a "Reality-challenged Moyesist". Sounds good. I like it.

Sorry about not answering your questions. I'm on record in here several times that I consider the manager/coach position, from school-boy teams up by the way, to be vastly over-rated. So my lack of response about Moyes. I don't particularly have a problem with him as manager and have said that too. I don't root for managers, anyhow. I root for EFC.

You and so many want Moyes out. OK already. Where have I told any of you to knock it off or disagreed with all the damning references to how it deploys the team? Don't bother looking because I never have. My focus is on EFC's root cause of all our problems; poor ownership.

With all that, to your questions:

1. Just how long are you prepared to put up with Moyes?

As long as the Club retains him. What choice do I have? If he gets funds available similar to the cash splashed around by other clubs and we don't improve? Simple. Good-bye Moyes and who's next in as manager?

2. What will it take you to believe like so many others that the ginger dud needs to go?

The Ginger Dud? My goodness. But, see my answer to question one since all you did was move some words around and ask the same question.

3. Do you have your own limits beyond which if Moyes goes you will write 'Moyes Out'.

And again. Same question. Same answer.

P.S. "Leave it for the life-long die-hard Evertonians to talk about our club". When I commit to a team, I commit. So, take that little quote above and shove it up your ass.
James Flynn
61   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:08:05

Report abuse

Paul (40) - "apologies - ought to read last decade and a half of moyes"

Jeez, you hate the guy so much your going back to before he was even a manager? Dude, take a deep breath. He'll be gone one way or the other soon enough.

"Johnny-come-lately Flynn" No, no, that's my cousin. I'm Jimmy. And how did you know all the girls' nickname for my cousin Johnny?

"noticed that my post was posted twice, but not by me all of two year long Flynn, but in America, where I suspect you come from, that's enough for tradition, right?"

Want to run that by me again, but in English this time?
James Flynn
62   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:18:09

Report abuse

Noel (46) ? Good stuff. My point is that in the end, managers are employees. If, when EFC gets sold, new ownership wants to bring in there own guy to manage, then it's good-bye Moyes.

Except: James, you also claim you "root for the team" and not a player or manager/coach. Yet you "came in with Landon". Interesting one....".

Yes, I came in with Landon because I wanted to see my country's best player play with a top Club in the top league. But LD's been gone and never coming back. I'm still here and never leaving.
John Ford
63   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:08:20

Report abuse

Paul ...I dont recall you ever asking a reasonable question, mainly because you're comments are laced with personal insults. Criticise the comments not the poster. Until then your questions deserve to be left alone

I'm happy with my own logic regarding Moyes, primarily because it involves some notion of context. You seem able to ignore the financial and footballing facts...yes they are related, which render 2/3rds of Premier League teams without realistic hope. A situation the Moyes has been able to challenge better than any.

The normal rules of football debate ? player positions/formations etc etc have significantly less meaning when the top of the game is so completely resourced and tuned to the needs of a few teams. This is the key determinant, not only of success but also the ability to entertain.

If the current crop of Moyes criticisms were acted upon ? if he smiled and said positive things in the press, if he played Barkley (or whoever), if he used subs quicker, it would make little or no difference because we're just not good enough, we don't have the players. Pissing in the wind, nothing more.
Ian Tunstead
64   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:35:03

Report abuse

Haha i like it james, dont worry, you get used to the insults, i now know that it is a clear sign that you are winning the argument so the more insults the better.
Jamie Barlow
65   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:50:31

Report abuse

James@60, great post. We've all got to start somewhere and the fact that you chose (or you was chosen for) Everton will do for me.
James Flynn
66   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:28:48

Report abuse

Chad (49) - Fair enough. Everything counts. All I keep seeing in my mind, in giant, flashing Las Vegas neon lights, is that current ownership has to go.

Many here want Moyes to go too (or even before). I'm not telling any to think different. I'm looking at the root cause of all our problems (yes, if some insist, including the retention of Moyes). EFC has lousy owners.

Kenwright et al OUT? I'm all in favor. Moyes Out? I rate him myself, but managers come and go.
Jamie Sweet
67   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:44:46

Report abuse

GJ Butler #53 - "Did he suck the life out of Everton, or did Everton suck the life out of him?"

Hmmm, that is a very interesting question. I shall have to ponder this one for quite some time.

I admit to being on Moyes's back a lot of the time these days, but I can see that the goings on at boardroom level and lack of funds etc must weight him down.

But ultimately I believe, that no matter what the true reason is, the man has lost his sparkle.

I must therefore stand by my viewpoint that we need a change and a fresh approach. Whether we, as a club in decline, would manage to suck the life out of the next manager that came along would remain to be seen. But at least we might get a bit more fire back in our bellies as a team, as a club, and as supporters. Because right now, as things stand, everything I see and love about our club is diminishing around me.
Dave Wilson
68   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:36:51

Report abuse

Ged - Your article is all over the shop.

Only the deaf, dumb and blind would/could "delude" themselves into believing that Moyes doesn't enjoy incredible loyalty amongst the overwhelming majority of the matchgoers... but only somebody who never gets to a match can possibly believe his supporters think he can "can do no wrong" ... it's utter nonsense.

Just because so many people believe Moyes is the man for the job doesn't mean they don't see lots of things they don't agree with.

Even here on TW, I don't know a single person who agrees with Moyes on everything... not even Doddy! His regular supporters like Tony Williams, Ian Tunstead and Kevin Hudson have all listed things they don't like about him.

I go to all the games, I read as many reports as I can, I talk Everton 24/7 ... but I have never met one single person who thinks Moyes doesn't make mistakes.

So come on Ged, point them out to me. Where are these mythical people you are so angry with?

Most Evertonians I know read the same reports as you, they listen to the same arguments in the pubs as you, they visit the same websites and listen to the same phone-ins as you do, they see the same games and they get just as good a look at the state of our club as you do.

YOU ARE NOT BETTER INFORMED!

Having taken EVERYTHING into consideration, the majority still feel that David Moyes is the man they want to lead our club through these troubled times. They/we believe that Moyes is our best bet until another owner shows up. You may not agree, but it doesn't constitute delusion.

If there really is a group of deluded Evertonians then surely it's those who:

? Think there really is a group of people who think Moyes can do no wrong.

? Convince themselves there is some sort of conspiracy amongst the press to make Moyes out to be better than he is.

? Claim that when the other managers vote for him as manager of the year, they dont really mean it... they are just buttering him up.

Believe against overwhelming evidence that by simply appointing the "right man" everything will be ok and we`ll be playing Champions league football on a Blue square budget.

Forget this money lark, we need a manager who can teach our bargain basement forwards to be creative and skillful.
Chris Leyland
69   Posted 07/12/2011 at 20:20:50

Report abuse

James Flynn ? don't be suckered in to believing that "so many want Moyes out" as this isn't neccessarily the case in reality. What you will find with ToffeeWeb is that there is a voiciferous group of people on here who constantly whine about Moyes. They call anyone who doesn't agree with their myopic views an "apologist" and regularly resort to phrases like "Coward" to describe him.

The original poster is a classic case of the anti-Moyes faction. He selects some facts about being beaten home and away and being knocked out of cups to assert the case against Moyes. He then presents the hypothesis that the fact we have "finished the best of the rest" consistently under Moyes is somehow of no significance set against his selective negative "facts", as though final league position isn't a true representation of how good you are in comparison to the rest of the teams and is a mere coincidence.

He also makes no mention of the fact that Moyes has the best pound-per-point ratio of all managers and has spent far less net on transfers than every other team over a long prior of time and despite this still manages to finish best of the rest.

They also usually fail to accept that the complete lack of money has any bearing on what happens. It is as if Moyes purposely chooses to sign people on free transfers and loans and sell all the creative players when other clubs come a calling rather than accept the fact that he is forced to do this.

They clamour for select individuals to start games and when these players do they don't accept or realise that it makes little of no difference.

Moyes is also castigated for not telling Kenwright to fuck off in public all the time. They seem to have little or no regard for things like employee/employer relationships or loyalty, despite often ranting on about how much they love the club.

So don't believe the hype you read on here and accept that most Everton fans don't think he is the be-all and end-all but that doesn't make them apologists. It is just that they on the whole appreciate what Moyes has done for the club and see the reality that the board are primarily to blame for most of our current woes.
Denis Richardson
70   Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:51:29

Report abuse

Nice thread guys, had me in stiches some of them, also made up by the fact Napoli just scored - COME ON YOU ITisssss, COME ON BASLE!!! What a wanderful day it would be if both Manchester clubs crashed out of the CL!

Anyway I digress.....

James Flynn - by your logic, no manager is ever at fault regardless of what the team does as.......it all depends on ownership apparently. Care to explain whether the likes of SAF and Wenger's success had nothing to do with them? Think you may be underestimating the role of the manager in a team this side of the pond.

Not meant to offend at all but I almost fell off my seat laughing with the line 'when I came over with Landon 2 years ago'!! Classic line!

Would never begrudge a fellow blue his/her opinion on any aspect of the club but I would take issue with someone trying to lecture me on the club, in relation to a period of time before that person had even started supporting the club.....think this is the main reason for some of the heated replies and not the fact you got on board a couple of years ago.

End of the day the more the merrier and at least you have some memories of a balanced side playing proper football (all be it for about 7 weeks only!).

COME ON BASLE/NAPOLIIIIIIIIIIIIIYESSSSSS 2-0 BYE BYE CITY, take your billion to the Europa league!
Ian Tunstead
71   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:15:35

Report abuse

One of the bests post I have ever read, Chris, superb! Usualy after a reasoned argument like that, you should expect to be called a tit or a coward or some other playground insult. I think the majority are sensible enough to come to the right conclusions.
Denis Richardson
72   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:24:39

Report abuse

YYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS 2:0 BASEL

BYE BYE Manure..............
Noel Lynam
73   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:30:13

Report abuse

James,

"Yes I came in with Landon because I wanted to see my country's best player play with a top Club in the top league.But LD's been gone and never coming back. I'm still here and never leaving."

Similar reasons as to why I started following EFC as a kid.
Robbie Shields
74   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:55:22

Report abuse

James #60 " I'm on record in here several times that I consider the manager/coach position, from school-boy teams up by the way, to be vastly over-rated."

If you genuinely believe that, why do you insist so vehemently that Moyes must stay? Surely you would be ambivalent about that!

The notion that the manager or coach is vastly overrated is one of the single most rediculous statements I have ever read on ToffeeWeb, and I'm afraid shows your lack of understanding of team sports in its entirety. I won't even bother to attempt to try and educate to you as to why this is the case, those that know need no explanation, those that don't.............
GJ Butler
75   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:58:42

Report abuse

Excellent post Chris. Prepare for the usual onslaught of being called 'part of the problem'.

Jamie @ 67, I too believe Moyes has lost the sparkle - but I can forgive him for it, and as previously posted, I genuinely feel sorry for him. Football, and premier league football in particular, is no longer the dream he bought into. It's not what I bought into when I started watching and supporting Everton.

Yet still I'll watch and support. You cant stop lovin your wife coz she's now fat and ugly. You accept the truth of it, she aint what she once was (and maybe still dream that one day she'll get a shot on the treadmill like the pretty ones).
GJ Butler
76   Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:58:42

Report abuse

Excellent post Chris. Prepare for the usual onslaught of being called 'part of the problem'.

Jamie @ 67, I too believe Moyes has lost the sparkle - but I can forgive him for it, and as previously posted, I genuinely feel sorry for him. Football, and premier league football in particular, is no longer the dream he bought into. It's not what I bought into when I started watching and supporting Everton.

Yet still I'll watch and support. You cant stop lovin your wife coz she's now fat and ugly. You accept the truth of it, she aint what she once was (and maybe still dream that one day she'll get a shot on the treadmill like the pretty ones).
Mick MacManus
77   Posted 07/12/2011 at 20:03:04

Report abuse

Fellaini is a top player, breaks down so much opposition play, an unrivalled ball winner who gains back far more ball from the opposition than any other player between boxes. He is the fulcrum from which attacks are often built (pity due to the 'crab syndome' of characteristic Everton attacks, unfortunatley they often come to nothing).
John Ford
78   Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:31:05

Report abuse

Spot on Mick and with a bit of investment he will shine with better players around him. Its remarkable how much of the ball he has, chiefly bacause he works so hard and has good positional sense.
Jamie Sweet
79   Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:08:17

Report abuse

Chris Leyland #68 there is indeed a "voiciferous group of people on here who constantly whine about Moyes" - and I concede that sometimes the criticism goes a little too far.

But then there are those at the other end of the spectrum (yourself included I guess) who believe that Moyes can do no wrong and that he is completely blameless for the gutless performances we've seen this season against the likes of Stoke and QPR.

I fully understand the constraints that Moyes is under. But that doesn't completely excuse him of all his flaws as a coach, of which I believe he has many.

The guy is paid £65k a week to make our football team the best they can possibly be - lack of funds or not. In my opinion, the complete air of negativity that radiates from him at the moment (in interviews, his general demeanour and the way he sets our team up to play out on the pitch) isn't helping us to achieve this.

Call me crazy, but I believe we could and should be doing much better than no shots on target v Stoke at Goodison Park.

I still believe we have a talented squad. I believe that within Moyes somewhere, could still be a very good manager. But sulking around the place, moaning about a lack of funds, moaning about a lack of strikers when he sold three of them in the summer, focussing so much on defense and tracking back, a failure to react when formations or certain players in certain positions simply isn't working... I could go on, but you get my point... he certainly isn't "The Moyesiah" that some people still think he is.
Ian Tunstead
80   Posted 08/12/2011 at 00:45:45

Report abuse

Maybe Moyes shouldnt speak to the press in future so people cant analyse and judge every little comment he makes, or maybe he should come out every game and ignore the truth the facts and reality and make out like we can we every game and that we have the best midfielders and strikers in the world. Then we will believe it and we will suddenly win every game because its all about belief.
Jimmy Sørheim
81   Posted 08/12/2011 at 00:39:26

Report abuse

To respond on #58 Tony J Williams: You claim they are real, do you have any evidence of that????

Yes, I must admit have been over the top after the watching us loose the Stoke game. It is about feelings, football makes you feel good or bad, but these last few years has been hell to be a Everton supporter. On top of that, I think amid the blaming of Moyes, I must include Kenwright, in truth because of his major screw-ups.

It just seems to me that all that CAN go wrong with this club Is going wrong, and has been for the last year or so. Confusing Moyes vs Kenwright is one issue, but I think they defend each other and I don't like that. Nothing seems to be professional, the Gosling saga ended in us giving him away for free because of that laid-back screw-up attitude of Kenwright. In addition to Kenwright, I feel a big part of the problem has become David Moyes, only because he has had to withstand pressure that no other manager seems to be able to and still have success.

Looking at this season as a whole, we need a change; it seems that Moyes just let go of all these players without having a Plan B. That to me is insane! If I was manager at Everton, I would have put the club before anything, but Moyes has failed to do just that.

Show me the evidence of the e-mails being true, then I could change that view a little, but as a whole I just don't feel Moyes has it in him to give what he has given anymore. Dried up press-conferences, negative pre-match comments, like the Man City game and in part the pre-Stoke game. He needs to lighten up, smile and try to do things more positive. He currently does all the negative.
Jimmy Sørheim
82   Posted 08/12/2011 at 01:00:56

Report abuse

Actually, Ian, I think he should stop it. That would be a GREAT idea. That has become part of the negative vibe you get from Moyes these days. It is not pleasant. The players seem to take it onboard as well, that is the worst part.

By the way, where are the new Arab investor Kenwright and his crew was talking about, it has gone silent, as always.

I say lets put it to a vote, who wants Moyes to go. And let all see what the majority on this site really feels. That would be a start, only it isn't going to change anything, Moyes will still be here and so will Kenwright.

How I wish I could time travel back to the glory days of Everton, as all this money problems and bank issues would be far gone in the background. Now it is all about the money, I hate it, I would love for this club to keep their Vaughans and Rooneys just to see what kind of team we would be if all players were local. That is a daydream I would like to have soon.
Eric Myles
83   Posted 08/12/2011 at 01:13:43

Report abuse

Noel #56 "He's being honest and therefore has full autonomy over which players are sold (Note: not whether player sales need to take place, but which players he chooses to sell)"

Not quite. He can only sell the players that other teams want to buy e.g If he wants to get rid of say Heitinga, but only receives bids for Arteta.
Eric Myles
84   Posted 08/12/2011 at 01:26:58

Report abuse

Mick #78, we could do with someone like that, who does he play for? Could we get him in on loan in December? Is he any relative to that useless lump we already have with the same name, maybe he could put in a word?
Tony J Williams
85   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:20:31

Report abuse

Jimmy, the fact that Ian Ross has been sacked seems pretty conclusive to me.

Also he has to do the interviews, it's part of the contract with Sky/BBC, even old Whisky Nose is back doing them now.

"I feel a big part of the problem has become David Moyes, only because he has had to withstand pressure that no other manager seems to be able to and still have success" - Eh? So it's his fault because he is getting put under mounting pressure from another source?

"I say lets put it to a vote, who wants Moyes to go. And let all see what the majority on this site really feels" - Why, this site has a reputation as being quite negative, certainly against Moyes. What would it prove, other than what we already know. It is not reflective of the whole fanbase and unless the whole fan base was polled, these type of polls are useless.

"it seems that Moyes just let go of all these players without having a Plan B. That to me is insane" - Back to the same daft point, I will do a red shite trick and put it in caps for you HE DID NOT WANT TO SELL ARTETA, PIENAAR, LESCOTT - HE WANTED TO KEEP HIS BEST PLAYERS. THE ARTETA TRANSFER WAS FOR THE BANKS.
James Flynn
86   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:37:03

Report abuse

Robbie (74) - "why do you insist so vehemently that Moyes must stay?"

Well Robbie, if you'll point out where I have vehemently insisted Moyes stay, I'll respond to it.

I've said I rate Moyes, which I do. Nothing beyond that. I notice some difference in an England view of manager's importance from an American one.

I'd guess it's because we have so many professional and college leagues that get massive TV "analysis" coverage, that we accept most managers/coaches, (whatever sport, whatever level) are horseshit. Be just as well the players figure it out themselves.

I rate Moyes. You and others here don't. So what?

Try it this way, if you think our present situation is Moyes' fault, that he's doing such a terrible job, explain why EFC doesn't get blown out in games. That's what happens to poorly manager clubs, yes? They get smoked. They get smoked often. Why isn't that happening?

Players win/lose games. Always have, always will. And if you don't have predators, you're fucked. Except top predators cost money. So fucked we are.

Again, you and others want Moyes out? Hey, have at it. What we are missing are scorers. That's why all the 1 goal losses (especially 1-0 losses when we don't get a single shot on frame. My God!). And we don't have scorers because we don't have the money to afford them. That's an ownership problem.

You want vehement insistance from me? Put up a "Kenright Out!" OP. You'll see me in there agreeing. But Moyes out? OK. Just explain EXACTLY how his replacement would somehow improve the club's position with the current talent available.

I say you (or anyone else here) can't do so. And there'd be nothing wrong in that. Which, to me, would point directly to where blame belongs; current EFC ownership.

Moyes in, Moyes out? Yawn. Kenright etal out? Now you're talking.
James Flynn
87   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:24:12

Report abuse

Robbie (74) - I forgot:

"The notion that the manager or coach is vastly overrated is one of the single most rediculous statements I have ever read on ToffeeWeb"

Actually, the over-rating of managers/coaches is a century old (at a minimum) fact, proven over and again in every sport. This reverence for the manager position I don't get.

"and I'm afraid shows your lack of understanding of team sports in its entirety."

Hahahahahahahahaha. Appreciate that. I'm always up for a good laugh. Especially as most fellows, unlike yourself, don't like being laughed at. You must be a very humble fellow.

"I won't even bother to attempt to try and educate to you as to why this is the case, those that know need no explanation, those that don't............. "

Is that so? How convenient for you.
Stephen Kenny
88   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:41:49

Report abuse

"explain why EFC doesn't get blown out in games. That's what happens to poorly manager clubs, yes? They get smoked. They get smoked often."

Stoke, QPR, Reading, Wolves, Oldham to name just a few of the shite teams that have turned us over at home over the past few years. Theres plenty more but I couldn't be arsed.
James Flynn
89   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:36:52

Report abuse

Ian (64) - Thanks. Don't want to be considered part of the pack, you know.
James Flynn
90   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:17:59

Report abuse

Jamie (65) - yeah, I'm in. Of course, at the time I was unaware of EFC's dire financial straits. So there's been any number of "Why the fuck did I commit to this team?" thoughts over the last year.

But, once I'm in, I'm in. No valleys, no uplands and all that.
James Flynn
91   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:21:16

Report abuse

Dave (68) - Perfect.

Where've you been anyway?
James Flynn
92   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:25:44

Report abuse

Chris (69) - Agree to all.

I'm always mindful that folks like all of us (whatever the argument or position taken)who come here comprise what, some .00000-add a low number% of EFC fans world-wide.

I come here because it's easily the best Everton-related discussion board.
Roman Sidey
93   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:41:28

Report abuse

Regarding comments on #80, Ian. Moyes is the manager of a very good squad of Premier League players. This is football. 11 vs. 11. If we don't have a chance of winning every single game we play, why the fuck do we play them?

He should be in the media talking up our chances of beating whatever opponent we are up against. That is how sport works. You do the research on the other team, and you come up with a plan to beat them, because, as the league tables around Europe show, every team (exception of Juventus at this point in time) is beatable.

If Moyes has given up this part of his job, is it okay for me, as a school teacher to give up on behaviour management because the kids are getting more out of control than they used to?
James Flynn
94   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:30:02

Report abuse

Denis (70) - I said managers/coaches are over-rated because they are in all sports at all levels. And you or anyone else please enlighten me (in your vastly superior knowledge and understanding of sports club ownership), since I've only been a full-fledged EFC fan for less than 2 years after all.

Name 10 teams in your (all of you who'd like to reply) life who had terrible owners but fielded great teams. Any sport. Hell, all sports you follow combined. No, 10's too many. OK 5 teams.

And not the owner was an asshole. I grew up on George Steinbrenner. He retired the Ownership Heavyweight Asshole Championship belt undefeated. But all his Yankee clubs did was win.

Come on. Terrible owners, great teams. Name them. Good luck, because the two are incompatible. You want Moyes out Denis? You want him out, then. I don't give a fuck. Have at it.

"Care to explain whether the likes of SAF and Wenger's success had nothing to do with them?"

Fairly spoken. I'll assume you haven't read my many posts on Toffeeweb where I said only a very few managers count. In saying so, I mentioned those you put here, plus Mourinho, Hiddink, Pep, AND Moyes. Likely there's a few others. But only a few.

"Think you may be underestimating the role of the manager in a team this side of the pond."

OK. I'd reword that to the role of manager is overestimated anywhere on earth.
Kevin Hudson
95   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:54:09

Report abuse

A deliberately mis-representative article, full of selective cherry-picking, sweeping statements, factually-disputable claims & questionable supposition.

Written it seems by someone who only watches Everton infrequently.
James Flynn
96   Posted 09/12/2011 at 00:46:54

Report abuse

Kevin (95) - "A deliberately mis-representative article, full of selective cherry-picking, sweeping statements, factually-disputable claims & questionable supposition".

Good stuff. Laughed reading it. Good stuff. You need to be in here more often.

Marcus Kendall
97   Posted 09/12/2011 at 00:53:38

Report abuse

Hiddink??? Why do people rate this guy???
Ged Dwyer
98   Posted 11/12/2011 at 10:34:28

Report abuse

Luke O'Farrell asks 'how can I tear into Fellaini'? Nowhere in my article do I do this. I was trying to point out that he is not being used correctly, which is to the detriment of the team. And after an article in a local newspaper we suddenly had a ridiculous bandwagon that he was a great defensive midfield player.
Sure he picks up loose balls in this position but he clearly can't tackle properly, doesn't stick to who he is marking properly, is slow on the turn and slow to get a challenge in. The goal Arsenal scored yesterday is another example of this. Fellaini was right by Song but didn't get a challenge in to prevent Song from playing the perfect ball to Van Persie, as he is not a natural ball winner.
As Ian Edwards said 'Fellaini is vastly over rated. As a holding midfield player he is poor. He gives the back four no protection and is why we cant keep a clean sheet'. We have paid £15m for a player and the manager and some fans appear unwilling to see the major weakness in his game.
This problem has cost us numerous points over the last two seasons but some Evertonians seem to be blind to this weakness or just don't want to face up to the problem.
Our best two runs last season came when Fellaini was injured. It's no coincidence. Not because Fellaini is useless but because he is getting played in the wrong position.
As soon as Rodwell is fit the two centre midfielders should be Neville (as the holding player) and Rodwell. The attacking centre mid (If we are using 451) should be a choice of one from five players, Fellaini, Cahill, Barkley, Osman and Billy. That's the simple truth for the sake of team balance. With Drenthe and Coleman on the flanks. I believe this would give us a solid midfield.
Fellaini does posses a good pass, does have a presence especially when he's in or around the oppositions penalty area and can be a threat in the air.
We actually got the best out of Fellaini the season we got to Wembley when he was played up front in tandem with Cahill. This was not a negative tactic just playing players to their strengths.
I have spoken out not because I want to be controversial but because I believe our situation is becoming very serious and over hyping some players and over criticising other players is doing more harm than good.
I too think Cahill has not performed as well as he could but it's a lot to do with circumstances. He thrives on chances and he hasn't been getting any and that is what his game is all about in a 451 formation.
Coleman while not the finished article is still the best option we have for wide right. Even in a game when he doesn't show much in an attacking sense he still provides good defensive cover for the right back, and he closes players down well.
Finally, I hope these rumours about Pienaar come to fruition. Any chance of Tevez on loan too !
.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.



© ToffeeWeb