Always had time for this guy whenever he played for us. I know he gets stick but he did seem to me to be honest in that he would always put in a shift.
When he kicked the ground against Sunderland, fell to the ground and then put his hand up to claim a penalty, I thought, ?Oh no, not him as well?. I really hate that kind of thing ? whenever one of our lovable neighbours does the same thing, it gives me added fuel to hate them even more.
And now we do it too. I know we?ve had players who have gone down too easily in the past but not like this. My love for football and Everton just sunk further down the drain.
So just one question ? what is the point any more?
Vince Hindson, Posted 28/12/2011 at 17:09:32
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1 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:09:01
2 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:20:01
3 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:46:29
Don't remember any body up in arms when Anders Limpar fell over his own feet Vs Wimbledon.
4 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:53:18
5 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:36:03
6 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:57:42
Definitely not a pen, but in my opinion Osman didn't cheat.
7 Posted 29/12/2011 at 08:27:09
Osman's case did none of those things and nor have I ever seen him do so.
Another difference is that all Suarez team mates vent their spleen in a co-ordinated, one could say, well rehearsed attempt to influence the referee, viz a viz Reina and Carragher racing half the length of the field to get in the refs face.
Nothing of the sort was evident in Osmans case, in fact, the little fellow seemed totally surprised though I admit he did seem pleased at the penalty decision.
Then off course there is the re-action of both managers.
Suarez, according to Dalglish can do no wrong, he tells the world that Luis is victim of a conspiracy that involves other clubs, their managers, players, fans and the FA.
Conrast that with Moyes pre season dictate to our players not to dive. A dictate that many believe has cost us vital points.
Then look at how quickly he held his hands up and clearly stated that Osmans case was definately not a penalty.
Would Daleish have been so honest? By the evidence to date, not in your wildest dreams.
8 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:09:32
9 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:27:37
Osman is many things, a cheat he is not. This was an exception to the rule as opposed to the Suarez norm.
If you want to have a go at Osman there are many things that you could choose, cheating should not be one of them
10 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:31:46
11 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:36:41
Wolves' Hunt is in the paper today calling for his own team to start doing more of this after they had a player sent off against the Arse; I call that bringing the game into disrepute.
Suarez epitomises everything that is wrong about the game these days and there's plenty more like him; but Ossie's not one of them
12 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:44:49
13 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:39:07
I mean i think hes a pretty straight guy,and ive a feeling if the ref had blamed a sunderland player and carded him, Ossie would have held his hand up.
So back to the fine lines of character...Hmm football has for too long been a game of 'handbags'with players,and mega money at stake,so i understand were people are coming from,respect however is as they say priceless.
14 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:46:22
No, I don`t think Ossie is a congenital cheat but when the opportunity arises to fool the ref and best the opposition,he`s in there with the rest of them!
After all,he won us a point,didn`t he?
15 Posted 29/12/2011 at 09:59:30
This sort of thing has gone on forever and is not quite the same a blatant diving...and there is also the case that Osman might have genuinely thought he was tripped as why else would he have kicked the floor? Just a thought...
And, instead of moaning, let's just accept a bit of good fortune when it comes our way!
16 Posted 29/12/2011 at 10:12:39
There is a difference between Osman and cheats, who specially work throughout the game on getting opponents booked or diving to win free kicks or penalties. Osman's only criticism came from him innocently falling over! Get a grip! Some people have short memories don't they, remember the derby one player feigning injury to get another sent off? That's a cheat! Has Osman ever done this? I can struggle to think of any Everton player to have done this infact, whereas there's a whole list of red ones; Alonso, Sissoko, Arbeloa, Garcia...
17 Posted 29/12/2011 at 10:38:25
He was probably convinced it was a pen right up until the point when he saw the TV replays after the match!
18 Posted 29/12/2011 at 10:46:48
19 Posted 29/12/2011 at 10:42:55
20 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:05:41
21 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:11:21
Suarez dives every game, tries to get people booked every game, tries to con the ref every game, has constantly has opponents refuse to shake his hand every game.
The comparison with Osman is unfair.
22 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:08:12
23 Posted 29/12/2011 at 10:50:16
Why are so many Evertonians living in the past ? Batsmen no longer "walk"
When I think of penalties for or against us, I think of the 8-9 stone wallers not given to AJ because Jose and Wenger had blatantly cheated by blackening the guys character.
I think of Hansen palming inchy`s goal bound shot away, Nichole shoving Sharpy in the back as he`s about to bury it. I think of Anichebe being hauled down by Ferdinand. I think of Gerrard not being content with a dive, but talking the ref into sending Tony Hibbert off. I think of the same gobshite referee looking the other way as Carragher tried to hump Lescot.
I think of Moyes not making a fuss, I think of Everton players meekly accepting injustice after injustice . and I think of Evertonians wanting us to be "above that sort of thing"
FUCK THAT ! I want us to cheat, the playing field is uneven enough without "nice" Everton tilting it even further by turning the other cheek. Who wants to be a victim ?
Only when we start to get penalties at OT, or the Gerrards of this world stop refereeing the games and every cheating fucker we come up against stops play acting should we be calling for our players to "play nice"
In the meantime, I`ve forgotten, Ossies penalty, I`m only concerned with how that twat got away with rugby tackling Drenthe in the box a couple of minutes later.
Do you really think the Shite or the Mancs would have accepted that decision so readily ?
24 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:21:18
25 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:29:02
"We look after our own and you repel outsiders."
Fascinating moral compass on display here.
None of us care that Osman dishonestly won us a penalty, but threads have been littered with abuse for cheaters who have cost US.
The explanation of partisanship simply confirms our hypocrisy, and underlines our deliberate selectivity.
26 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:31:53
But every team cheats and pretty much no-one ever gets punished for it.
Whilst it's allowed like it is now we have no choice but to do it.
I actually think we do it less than others for the record.
I do agree though - what is the point in sport? What is the point in letting players get away with it?
I would rather 10 players were done for diving and got say 10 game bans (with only 1 being guilty) than none getting done and the none-stop play-acting.
27 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:38:52
Osman accidentally fell over. So why DID he appeal?
Could the (apparently admirable) lack of Suarez-like stridency be on account that he KNEW it was a lie, never felt entirely confortable with it, but still attempted to cheat Sunderland anyway..?
Admitting you were sat next to Ossie's brother discredits YOUR impartiality.
28 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:40:51
It is your own moral compass I would worry about you appear to have granted yourself the wisdom of Solomon here. You also appear to have given yourself some kind of Derren Brown type powers that allows you to see into the mind of Leon Osman at the time he went down in the box.
Did he think as he went to shoot I know what I will do I will kick my own leg and fall over and claim a penalty or genuinely think he had been taken down from behind. You dont know that anymore than I do. But on the balance of probabilities i.e. having watched him play for us for years I would suggest the latter is more likely dont you?
29 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:51:15
30 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:42:25
I do a bit of reffing at a pretty low level and things happen in games and you think you see what sometimes it turns out not to be the case, e.g a Goalie says he got a touch but you have given the Goal kick, but even the highest qualified, and experienced, in this case Mr Webb can also make mistakes.
Sadly, the approach of others is to take maximum advantage of situations, like JR in the Derby, whereas I hope that we play hard but fair, not so sure about the hard in Leon but certainly I can only imagine him as fair. As Ed said, the first he probably knew was when he saw the replay, and I must admit I was also screeching for the Penalty on first viewing. Webb in the meantime had to make a decision based on that one viewing and I guess regrets the error in hindsight
31 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:46:17
Some above have mentioned Liverpool, and one of their players. Well I'll tell you 2 things - firstly, that prick Dalglish never had the decency to castigate the referee for that awful (sidetrack - I heard one commentator call the Osman decision the worst he'd seen all season - what short memories!!!) decsion in the derby, and is amongst a clutch of managers who have 'Neverseenit Syndrome'; the other is for those who watched MOTD on Monday, recall if you can Steven Gerrard's first touch from a free kick, which lead to a header going over the bar. This free kick was won by Carroll tripping himself up in similar style to Osman. Only I never heard the commentator mention that - he was too busy getting excited about Gerrard's first touch in god knows how long.
Personally, I cannot abide cheating - defined by me as any attempt to deliberately and knowingly con the officials or opponents. I will never forget Paolo di Canio picking the ball up after our 'keeper (Gerrard?) had collapsed when he had an open net to score in - sadly, not much fuss was made of that incredible act of sportsmanship at the time which shows how much it is valued in general, but I will never forget that. And I have also stood on the Gwladys St and sighed to myself at the playacting from some of our previous players, including both Arteta and Pienaar, because great players shouldn't need to do that.
But there is a very obvious difference between cheating and an honest but incorrect claim and some above need to get a grip of that.
32 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:54:30
It was a packed alehouse we all screamed for a pen when we saw it in real time did you?
So if it is possible for us to be wrong about it being a pen and the referee does it make it equally valid for the player to think he has brought down from behind?
33 Posted 29/12/2011 at 11:49:06
I do not fault Osman for trying (the hand in the air was a bit embarrassing but maybe also a bit instinctive). Virtually every player does it and he probably would not have done had we been leading 3-0. However, it rescued us a point so am not crying about it.
Just like the hand of frog with Henry, if the ref is blind when something blatant happens then why blame the player. The refs are there to enforce the rules, until they do this properly every player is going to try to take advantage.
Ask yourself this - had that pen been the difference between Everton being relegated and staying up in the last game of the season, would you still be on your moral high ground? (Didn't think so)
Am still mighty glad Hans Segers did us a huge 'favour' in 1994! (Will not say any more there....!)
34 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:14:57
The lad has arguably won our last 5 points with his 2 goals and the pen and we still have posters turning on him.
Vince 19 has the best idea, now he knows he tripped himself up, it could be a good idea to apologise, but put in the statement that he genuinely believed he had been tripped, hence the arm up.
35 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:08:27
His foot came to dead stop when he kicked the deck but he wasn't looking at his foot! He probably thought it was a defenders foot. He was the beneficiary of a refereeing error (or plain incompetence) which is something of a rarity for Everton.
Just be grateful.
36 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:21:17
A couple of games ago Ryan Shawcross spent the entire game with fellani in a headlock at corners, is he a cheat?, how about the shirt pulling that goes on at every corner sometimes putting a player off from scoring a certain goal.
Get over it, because what is going to happen is that we will be 'AJ'd' for the rest of the season and getting nothing from the officials
37 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:16:37
So the hope is it will even itself out some way, but it never does.
The sending off for Rodwell is 3 points lost in a way.
I think it is naive to apply moral in football, there has not been any focus on the cheating part of the game so it will go on as it always has.
The FA is the ones who need to do something about it, not only Everton, that would be a mistake.
38 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:34:35
I would argue that the body & mind instinctively KNOWS the difference.
39 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:48:45
We deserved anyone what about the numerous times we haven't been awarded one this season. stop complaining lad!
40 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:51:06
41 Posted 29/12/2011 at 12:48:21
42 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:07:01
I remember Jags cheating to win that pen, and in all the posts after the game not one person brought up the fact that Jags was a cheating bastard.
43 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:12:17
44 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:11:34
45 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:08:52
And by the way, saying as one poster said that they WANT Everton players to cheat, is quite disgraceful in my opinion. No, I'm not holier than though - but the answer surely has to be stricter punishment for those that do cheat? Otherwise where does it all end?
46 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:16:00
47 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:37:41
48 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:32:54
But to compare the lad with that redshite waste of fucking skin, is, imo, way off the mark. Suarez has ''cheat'' as an occupation on his C.V.
BTW, i've got no problem with being hypocritical and selective when it comes to that shower of shite across the park (it just winds them up more), and my moral compass is still working (I think).
49 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:38:11
Cheating means you break the rules; the rules don`t say if you think you are fouled you can not appeal, and we have had our fair share of cheating refs over the last couple of seasons.
50 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:35:33
51 Posted 29/12/2011 at 14:13:31
52 Posted 29/12/2011 at 13:52:55
( Ie: Telling me that I need to "relax a little & enjoy life.")
Why..? Because I had the gall to respond to the post you directed at me?
Or because I highlighted the view that predicating one's values based on partisanship isn't sufficiently sound enough to condone Osman's gamesmanship?
This is the skewed moral compass I'm talking about. The disregard for 'fair play,' except when it hurts us.
I doubt you would be so phlegmatic about it if it had happened in reverse and cost us two valuable points?
Then why take offence when this ethical inconsistency is pointed out?
53 Posted 29/12/2011 at 14:32:13
Ever been deliberately tripped by someone else?
Know the difference?
Did it 'feel,' the same?
And, again, if Sunderland had equalised via this method, would YOU remain benign (or Saintly) about it?
54 Posted 29/12/2011 at 14:35:43
55 Posted 29/12/2011 at 15:35:57
56 Posted 29/12/2011 at 15:45:02
57 Posted 29/12/2011 at 16:10:20
Of course I'm guilty of tripping my self up (I remember a similarly embarrassing episode to Osmans) and I also remember the indignation of having been upended but when you're also being tackled it can seem remarkably similar. Ever played the game?Only takes a slight nudge at the speeds I could manage!....but to have a pop at someone who had absolutely NO history of cheating and compare him with that little shit Suarez...no wonder there are plenty of people ready to defend him. For a change.
Listen, Kevin, we have been on the receiving end of more than our share of dodgy decisions,especially in Derby's, so it makes a change for Lady Luck to wink in our direction as she has done this season. And if the situation was reversed , yes, I would be all saintly and accept the decision. The ref ballsed up, end of.
Funny how no-one has mentioned Moyes immediate reaction in his post match interview "No, it wasn't a penalty". How many other managers suddenly "Didn't see it" like King Effin Kenny over the park.
58 Posted 29/12/2011 at 16:15:30
Frankly,Dave,I'm appalled that you hoped he did cheat.Do you really want our players to behave like scum like Suarez?As Eugene said ,all players will cheat but unlike him I believe there are degrees of it.Suarez is the lowest form of life ever to play in the premier league and I wouldn't want him on a free for Everton.
59 Posted 29/12/2011 at 16:57:29
60 Posted 29/12/2011 at 16:50:52
I live in a real word where most people do not hold Corinthian-like virtues. What would you have us do? Roundly condemn Osman and berate him for his lack of sportsmanship? Or shall we refrain from venting our anger at opposition players who deliberately dive? What type of football do you want to watch?
61 Posted 29/12/2011 at 17:11:56
62 Posted 29/12/2011 at 17:15:40
Some of these posts are cracking, the English used is very advanced, especially Ray and Kevin, I would love to hear what they shout and sing about when at the match...
63 Posted 29/12/2011 at 16:59:36
64 Posted 29/12/2011 at 17:44:35
65 Posted 29/12/2011 at 17:37:40
66 Posted 29/12/2011 at 18:22:09
Some say these things even themselves out. I don't believe that in general as we are owed many 'decisions' already this season - but in this case it did. Justice was done.
Sod all to do with Ossie 'cheating'.
67 Posted 29/12/2011 at 19:21:23
68 Posted 29/12/2011 at 21:09:11
Just as he set himself for a shot at goal from 15 m, he then cold bloodedly decided to kick the ground and claim a penalty. Is that what you believe, Kevin?
69 Posted 29/12/2011 at 22:50:30
70 Posted 29/12/2011 at 23:01:09
71 Posted 30/12/2011 at 01:07:36
72 Posted 30/12/2011 at 01:55:56
73 Posted 30/12/2011 at 03:56:30
In a decade of playing for Everton and Derby, I cannot recall another incident where he feigned or dived to gain an advantage, and he's not the sort to wave imaginary cards at refs, so unless he decides this is the way to go from now on, we should cut him some slack and not brand him along with the true scumbags who bring the once beautiful game into disrepute regularly.
74 Posted 30/12/2011 at 08:06:09
Says it all.
75 Posted 30/12/2011 at 08:57:49
As for Moyes's instant denial on the TV, I think he's just presenting himself as a realist overall so that when he feels there is an injustice he can say that he always gives a balanced appraisal of events (deliberately contrasting himself with Dogleash).
76 Posted 30/12/2011 at 10:37:57
I have always appealed for throws and corners, always. I wouldn't say that's really cheating. What about moving the ball forwards on free kicks? Running down the clock? Treat every game like a derby, there is a difference in being clever and blantant cheating ? like them lot over the park.
77 Posted 30/12/2011 at 11:43:57
"And although the 2 camera angles don't show a contact, that doesn't mean there wasn't any."
So your evidence of it being a pen, even though the camera's show there was no contact, is that Ossie could not have missed the ball by that much, without there being contact?
78 Posted 30/12/2011 at 12:02:27
79 Posted 30/12/2011 at 12:17:25
80 Posted 30/12/2011 at 12:24:51
Just for perspective, I don't think our penalties at Blackburn or Wolves at home should have been given so there's no blind denial here. In the Sunderland game however there's room for more than one view of the issue.
81 Posted 30/12/2011 at 12:45:47
I agree with you, it looked like Ossie was brushed with what could be described as a heavy duty "Fart", the gust and power of said "Fart" managed to knock the muscular Ossie out of his stride thus resulting in a clear clut Penalty,
We should not castrate Ossie for falling over, we should be looking the effects of dropping a large Fart in the Penalty Area should be investigated by The FA.
82 Posted 30/12/2011 at 15:03:42
Two Blackburn players dived to get players yet they only did it once and they missed the penalties. Also I remember Giggs running into Pienaar's leg and getting a penalty yet we just accepted it was a part of football.
Suarez is different: he looks for players to be booked and sent off, he is a racist scumbag. Suarez is a cheat, plain and simple.
83 Posted 30/12/2011 at 18:06:43
Also there are too many ex-reds on the motd panel so they will more likely ignore repeated cheating from their own team and roundly condemn an Everton player at the first chance they get.
Finally for the record when Robbie Fowler won the penalty at Arsenal and apparently pleaded with the ref that it wasnt a penalty, well he will tell you to his face that he was appealing for the ref not to send him off, not to admit going down without being touched. It all got out of hand and he ended up a hero!!! he was more amazed than anyone..
84 Posted 31/12/2011 at 10:11:43
Its very rare Cattermole doesn't kick people and Webb is probably still amazed that he never brought him down, oh well there is a first time for everything.
85 Posted 31/12/2011 at 10:39:42
I have to say, on this thread, there is some of the most one-eyed bollocks I've ever read.
"Yeah but he's a BIGGER cheat" etc
And some of the descriptions of what 'happened' might have been written by former Iraq Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf
To 'comical' Karl and the rest - it doesn't make you a bad blue if you say what happened, rather than what you would LIKE to have happened.
As I said earlier, they ALL cheat, so it bothers me not one jot that Ossie took a dive and we got a pen.
Fact: We are cheated against MASSIVELY each time we play Chelsea, City, Liverpool, United etc, simply by virtue of their ability to outspend us by hundreds of millions.
THAT'S the cheating that concerns me, the cheating OFF the the park, not the petty shite that Sky peddles along the lines of.. 'Harry, WAS it over the line?'
All that nonsense imo simply distracts supporters from seeing how they (and their teams) are REALLY being cheated.
86 Posted 31/12/2011 at 13:41:13
They have just shown replays on Gillette soccer saturday, and when Osman kicks the floor, the 2 players round him are at least half a yard away from him, even the lad diving in is nowhere near him.
87 Posted 31/12/2011 at 14:21:45
Inexplicably, some argue it WAS a pen, whilst those that know it wasn't, or shouldn't have been awarded, care not a jot that Osman's gamemanship fooled Webb, and cheated Sunderland out of 3 points.
Using the weak justification that (several) wrongs make a right, or that Leon 'isn't one of those types.'
For the record, I don't think he deliberately went to ground looking for it, but decided on the spur of the moment to try and con the ref. The cynics will argue that he was smart & that in (the mythical / Darwinian) "real world," it was the appropriate thing to do.
The very same people will be livid if this happens to us (in reverse) at the Hawthorns, and therefore in future, should not fill ToffeeWeb, or Goodison, with vitriol the next time a dodgy goal costs us points.
I don't entirely agree with his view, but Jon Cox states that football has no moral compass. Despite regularly bemoaning the state of the game, there are many otherwise decent, virtuous people on here who condone that fact, and implicitly contribute to the death of 'fair play.'
88 Posted 31/12/2011 at 14:48:04
I remember someone saying something along the lines of "it's not as if he ran anyone over".
89 Posted 31/12/2011 at 16:41:17
90 Posted 31/12/2011 at 17:20:33
To point out that football has no moral compass is not to say whether it's right or wrong. Ever since season 92/93 i.e. "Sky", footballers and more to the point managers and chairmen, whether imported or not, have worshipped at the alter of cash.
It's not about fairplay anymore it's about money and success. Morals merely being the first visitor to the dustbin.
A scenario for your goodself.
We are in the final of the F.A. Cup against Liver something or other and it's 0-0 in the 89th minute. The same thing happens to Ozzy in the box. It's identical. If he makes a fuss and gets the pen then we win 1-0 get the cup and qualify for Europe.
Scene 2. He doesn't make a fuss, we go into extra time and the shite put 2 past us and we leave with F.A.
In terms of morals the question has to be which scene are you?
91 Posted 31/12/2011 at 17:59:55
Would that be the F.As dubious wind panel ;-)
92 Posted 01/01/2012 at 04:57:12
His reaction was consistent with when he THINKS he has been fouled. Really, I don't think he was cheating. I don't think he was fouled either.
But just because he didn't get fouled doesn't mean he was cheating.
To me, what he did was much less obviously cheating than those who throw themselves / their leg into a defender to draw a penalty, however naive the defender might be to allow them the opportunity.
93 Posted 01/01/2012 at 19:18:51
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