Everton News, Season 2011-12
Now Moyes blames the Premier League
David Moyes has tried to deflect some of the criticsm for his decision to surrender last week's league derby by fielding a a heavily weakend team, blaiming the Premier League for "letting themselves down" and "demeaning the FA Cup" by scheduling the game for last Tuesday.
72 Comments: Moyes was quoted by the Daily Mirror as saying: "To put that game in there before quarter-finals involving both teams, you think it hardly makes sense. I think the Premier League let themselves down with that.
"When you put fixtures in like the one we had before a game, then the Premier League are going to lose crowds and support, because we can't obviously fit that in, if you're going to put a midweek game in before a quarter-final tie.
"I think the Premier League are the ones who are now beginning to let themselves down with the way they are doing it."
Original Source: Sky Sports News
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
We played a European Cup Winners Cup Final midweek once.. followed by the FA Cup Final at the weekend... and even then only just got beat.
It's called being a successful football team...
Know your history? More like trying to con fans that professional athletes cannot play a few hours of football twice in a week every so often.
It's called being a successful football team...
Know your history? More like trying to con fans that professional athletes cannot play a few hours of football twice in a week every so often.
Mancini come out with some similar bollocks about his poor multi millionaire professional athletes having to play 90 minutes of football so soon before playing another game, its a nonsense.
In April we have to play Sunderland at GP, 48 hours after we go to Norwich. More ready-made excuses for Moyes.
Mark. Reread your post. We lost the final in 85. To 10 men. Why? Because we were exhausted from playing midweek.
Know your history.
Know your history.
The man has been hanging around with that shithouse Kenwright too long as he's turning into him, ie refusing to take any blame for anything.
These nauseous '10 years' accolades have seemingly gone to his head.
These nauseous '10 years' accolades have seemingly gone to his head.
Peter Reid was on the pundits panel and was asked what he thought about playing three games within a week, to which he responded along the lines of 'poor souls' and taking a look at his watch and sarcastically sayin it's time for a nap now. Somebody posted after the derby wondering what the like of Kendall, Royle, and Reid would make of fielding a weakened side ? well Reid obviously thought it was a load of bollocks, and I'm glad he said as much.
I can't wait for the next manager to come along; believe me, as long as he can run a tight ship, is fully commited to the job, and has at least some tactical nous, he will do better than Moyes with this group of players.
What the fuck was playing Cahill in the holding midfield role all about in the 2nd half!!?
I can't wait for the next manager to come along; believe me, as long as he can run a tight ship, is fully commited to the job, and has at least some tactical nous, he will do better than Moyes with this group of players.
What the fuck was playing Cahill in the holding midfield role all about in the 2nd half!!?
Rob Hill, Thank you for some sanity, he bought in Jags and Hibbert who were pretty much regulars for most of the season, Pienaar who's one of our best players, Strac who was unlucky to be dropped in the first place, Rodwell who's supposed to be worth £20M and Anichibe who's hardly a reserve. The hysteria is ridiculous and to suggest he picked a team to lose is embarrassing and an an insult to the players he bought in.
We're still in the cup and have a chance of Wembley. I for one am glad we have Moyes and will channel all my efforts into supporting the team and Moyes.
COYB
We're still in the cup and have a chance of Wembley. I for one am glad we have Moyes and will channel all my efforts into supporting the team and Moyes.
COYB
Blah blah blah. More bollocks from Moyes, admit it you messed up cos your plan backfired anyway as we now have a replay & an extra game.
Rob.. they were on the piss after the Euro final... And even then as you say ran out of steam a bit... exausted or a brilliant goal? I'm sure Big Nev's book will throw a few 'myths' out of the window...
My point was really, about a few games in a week: Would an Everton manager have gone to Reid, Sharp, Ratcliffe before a derby at Anfield and said "You're sitting this one out, lads ? we've got Sunderland at Goodison in the Cup at the weekend!"
My point was really, about a few games in a week: Would an Everton manager have gone to Reid, Sharp, Ratcliffe before a derby at Anfield and said "You're sitting this one out, lads ? we've got Sunderland at Goodison in the Cup at the weekend!"
Exactly Mark.
People are trying to defend the indefensible, today's result is irrevelant to the debate about the derby line-up.
People are trying to defend the indefensible, today's result is irrevelant to the debate about the derby line-up.
Mark back then we were the best team in the league and now we are a top half of the league team (not Moyes fault it's about finance) comparisons to back then are just nonsense. Sunderland are a similar level to us and and on a great run so we prioritised the cup, hardly a sacking offence!
Can't we all just get behind the team and the manager?
Can't we all just get behind the team and the manager?
There lies one of the problems Ian "Not Moyse's fault" nothing ever seems to be his fault.
Ian, I'm not calling for heads here. The FA Cup was the catalyst for the best Everton team I have seen (mid 80s), and therefore will always be a priority for me personally. The FA Cup semi-final against Utd the other year was also a great day for myself.
Whats bugging me is the myth that these guys cannot play a few games in a week once in a while. You call my comparisons 'nonsense'.. why is that? They are still footballers... It's still just 90 mins... and if you're so much better than the rest, if anything, it should be easier, shouldn't it?
Strongest team every time for me... until you EARN the success, and the right to leave players out...
Whats bugging me is the myth that these guys cannot play a few games in a week once in a while. You call my comparisons 'nonsense'.. why is that? They are still footballers... It's still just 90 mins... and if you're so much better than the rest, if anything, it should be easier, shouldn't it?
Strongest team every time for me... until you EARN the success, and the right to leave players out...
Yes, they got so leathered they couldn't beat 10 men. Think you've undone your own argument there Mark.
Had it been spurs/chelsea/utd in mid week there wouldn't have been as much anger. Pride has shrouded the issue in my opinion. My anger is towards the players selected who showed no fight. They should have been desperate to tear into the RS to prove a point.
So many on here were crying out for us to drop Cahill and Neville. Now they're furious they were dropped because it suits their anti DM stance. Same with so many players.
Ian, you won't get people on here supporting the team. Its deathly quiet when we win games - manic when we lose. You get spat on when you try and counter some very flakey, impotent arguements.
Only when Moyes leaves will most on here be happy. Will be very very interesting to see what they say on his replacement and how long they give him before lashing out.
Had it been spurs/chelsea/utd in mid week there wouldn't have been as much anger. Pride has shrouded the issue in my opinion. My anger is towards the players selected who showed no fight. They should have been desperate to tear into the RS to prove a point.
So many on here were crying out for us to drop Cahill and Neville. Now they're furious they were dropped because it suits their anti DM stance. Same with so many players.
Ian, you won't get people on here supporting the team. Its deathly quiet when we win games - manic when we lose. You get spat on when you try and counter some very flakey, impotent arguements.
Only when Moyes leaves will most on here be happy. Will be very very interesting to see what they say on his replacement and how long they give him before lashing out.
When the derby was scheduled, weren't loads of people coming on here complaining?
Yes they was, Nick, but Moyes has opened his mouth so he's a prick who hasn't got a clue.
Robbie, every manager rests players for games. I don't think Reid was talking about Moyes as such. He was taking the piss out of the players and the state of football in general.
Robbie, every manager rests players for games. I don't think Reid was talking about Moyes as such. He was taking the piss out of the players and the state of football in general.
Maybe winning today would have meant at least one less game for the poor exhausted surrender monkeys? The Ref didn't help, but as usual Moyes's tactics in the second half when we were outplaying them for the last half hour in the first, beggar belief.
Cahill drops deep and Fellaini goes forward, giving Sunderland space to run into. The Strac comes on, not to give us an extra attacker but to replace Royston who is meant to supply the balls to him surely?
Then to not talk to ITV? Guilty as charged, Mr Moyes ? you blew this week completely and taking your teddy home cos it all backfired is poor, very poor.
Sunderland were fielding their weakened team today btw Mr Moyes and we couldn't get a result. Not optimistic for the replay but ever hopeful.
Cahill drops deep and Fellaini goes forward, giving Sunderland space to run into. The Strac comes on, not to give us an extra attacker but to replace Royston who is meant to supply the balls to him surely?
Then to not talk to ITV? Guilty as charged, Mr Moyes ? you blew this week completely and taking your teddy home cos it all backfired is poor, very poor.
Sunderland were fielding their weakened team today btw Mr Moyes and we couldn't get a result. Not optimistic for the replay but ever hopeful.
On the subject of squad rotation it seems a bloody nightmare, notwithstanding the massive embarrassment Moyes version has heaped on our club.
Wasn't this what caused Benitez downfall at the shite and began the rocky road for O'Neill arsing around like Moyes in europe at the Villa?
Also the heart of the Mancini and Tevez situation?
Chelsea - AVB vs Lampard/Terry/ Drogba ?
Sure there's more if I think about it.
Wasn't this what caused Benitez downfall at the shite and began the rocky road for O'Neill arsing around like Moyes in europe at the Villa?
Also the heart of the Mancini and Tevez situation?
Chelsea - AVB vs Lampard/Terry/ Drogba ?
Sure there's more if I think about it.
Looking at the team itself today, I thought Drenthe showed poor decision-making in carrying on going down the left instead of going inside where the only space was to move as he was always heavily marked. That said, no-one was ever available for a pass.
I can't imagine what was said at half-time but the amount of floated balls that went into their 18-yard box was awful, always with the same predictable result: outmarked and outmanned or watch the ball over the byline! Why exactly? And what was the point of Magaye coming on? The lad did the exact same thing.
Not one of our boys was prepared to run at them today and the team look to be all out of ideas and team interplay! Moyes happy to have a new guy take the unsupplyable striker role on.
What's going on with Ross Barkley? Was it just another load of shite about how good the academy is but never getting any good players to come through for Everton!
I can't imagine what was said at half-time but the amount of floated balls that went into their 18-yard box was awful, always with the same predictable result: outmarked and outmanned or watch the ball over the byline! Why exactly? And what was the point of Magaye coming on? The lad did the exact same thing.
Not one of our boys was prepared to run at them today and the team look to be all out of ideas and team interplay! Moyes happy to have a new guy take the unsupplyable striker role on.
What's going on with Ross Barkley? Was it just another load of shite about how good the academy is but never getting any good players to come through for Everton!
Ian, first you indulge the comparison by debating it, then a couple of posts later you think you've won the argument by saying that you can't compare the two eras. Can't have it both ways, mate.
I think you can compare the two eras, because that's what you do with two separate events happening in the same business. For that reason, even if the players were exhausted in the 80s, today's athlete is superman compared with the blokes that were running around 20-30 years ago - hell, even 10 years ago.
If these guys can't play Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday after having two weeks off, then they shouldn't be getting paid to do what they supposedly love.
Moyes's actions tonight after the match speak volumes:
1. He's a fucking coward.
2. He think's he's SAF.
3. Short Round is now our club spokesman.
4. If Moyes walks tomorrow, which he should, Round will probably be our manager until the end of the season.
I think you can compare the two eras, because that's what you do with two separate events happening in the same business. For that reason, even if the players were exhausted in the 80s, today's athlete is superman compared with the blokes that were running around 20-30 years ago - hell, even 10 years ago.
If these guys can't play Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday after having two weeks off, then they shouldn't be getting paid to do what they supposedly love.
Moyes's actions tonight after the match speak volumes:
1. He's a fucking coward.
2. He think's he's SAF.
3. Short Round is now our club spokesman.
4. If Moyes walks tomorrow, which he should, Round will probably be our manager until the end of the season.
By the way, just an idea for the assistant's nickname: 'No way'.
Rob.. Kevin Moran got sent off with about 10 mins to go... Reid through on goal. So to say we couldn't beat 10 men 'cos they got so leathered' is a bit harsh.
Even in today's 'Athlete footballers', I'd still pick a half-pissed Trevor Steven ahead of Drenthe any day. Don't get me started on the rest of them...
Could you imagine how 'leathered' we would get if we won a cup now??
Even in today's 'Athlete footballers', I'd still pick a half-pissed Trevor Steven ahead of Drenthe any day. Don't get me started on the rest of them...
Could you imagine how 'leathered' we would get if we won a cup now??
I've noticed some of the comments here referring to the teams of the 80s and I am with the belief that these modern players are too self-involved and worried about their wages and finger nails to be arsed to put 100% in for their own dignity!
It's sickening when you think the amount of jobs that are going now and the carry on out of the whole footballing fraternity, I honestly don't know why any of us bother!
It's sickening when you think the amount of jobs that are going now and the carry on out of the whole footballing fraternity, I honestly don't know why any of us bother!
Rob, everybody and his dog knew when they saw the team sheet for the derby that it was a strange selection to take 6 'part of the in-form' players off to replace with 6 'coming back from injury' or just sidelined because 'generally not first-team selection'. If you can break it down to the exacting wheres and whys for 3 points and the fans being over the moon to go above them.
I'd happliy be quiet but there's a catalogue of errors and then belated post-post match comments coming out that just make everyone even more convinced! Is it that hard to see?
I'd happliy be quiet but there's a catalogue of errors and then belated post-post match comments coming out that just make everyone even more convinced! Is it that hard to see?
Moyes blames the FA; Round blames the Ref; the blame game continues... the apologists soak it up.
Can't wait to hear what other absolutely pathetic excuses Dour Dire Davey and his fawning acolytes trot out when today, as is likely, the Red Site win their quarterfinal match with essentially the same team that humiliated Everton on Tuesday.
He has to go and take Round, Neville, Cahill and the negative tactics with him..I'd go get Brendan Rogers as the next manager.
Ok Karl, you agreed with decision to rest Cahill and Neville on Tues then, did you? It just shows it is impossible to appease the fans. Most people are complaining that they were dropped, you don't even want them at the club!
Marc 955, to be fair I think people were surprised by the number of changes (6) and some of the actualy changes (e.g. PJ for JH, Anichebe on the left, Staq instead of Jelavic, Rodwell/Felli CM partnership (which has generally not worked)), as opposed to having had any changes.
Either way, the changes is not what annoys the most, it's Moyes's 'no regrets' bollocks. He picked a side that obviously did not work out as we were stuffed, and he has the gall to say he has no regrets.
Can you honestly picture the manager of Rangers or Celtic coming out with comments like that after being trounced in a Glasgow derby?
Everyone makes mistakes, at least have the decency to own up to them ? especially for a game that means a hell of a lot more to every Evertonian than any other league match.
(Add the fact the 'resting' of 6 players did not have the desired effect of a home win against Sunderland....)
It's not a surprise people are pissed off, is it?
Either way, the changes is not what annoys the most, it's Moyes's 'no regrets' bollocks. He picked a side that obviously did not work out as we were stuffed, and he has the gall to say he has no regrets.
Can you honestly picture the manager of Rangers or Celtic coming out with comments like that after being trounced in a Glasgow derby?
Everyone makes mistakes, at least have the decency to own up to them ? especially for a game that means a hell of a lot more to every Evertonian than any other league match.
(Add the fact the 'resting' of 6 players did not have the desired effect of a home win against Sunderland....)
It's not a surprise people are pissed off, is it?
But, Dennis, a lot of the players who were brought in have played an important role in our recent good run - more so even than some who were rested.
Jelavic - made his full debut against Spurs
Osman - made his 1st start since 04/01 against Spurs
Neville and Cahill - 90% of people on here have been calling out for these players to be dropped for months
Compare that to the roles that Stracq and Pienaar, for example, have played in our recent good run. At the end of the day all of the complaints come down to one decision - Jags for Heitinga. Other than that, everyone got pretty much what they had wanted to see all year.
Jelavic - made his full debut against Spurs
Osman - made his 1st start since 04/01 against Spurs
Neville and Cahill - 90% of people on here have been calling out for these players to be dropped for months
Compare that to the roles that Stracq and Pienaar, for example, have played in our recent good run. At the end of the day all of the complaints come down to one decision - Jags for Heitinga. Other than that, everyone got pretty much what they had wanted to see all year.
Mark - you can't challenge Karl's statement by citing other posters' arguments and views - how does that work?
I think Karl has a point in that just as Moyes and Kenwright have tied themselves to each other, so in the squad sense have Moyes, Neville and Cahill. Perhaps Moyes wanted to keep them out of the fallout when he (probably) knew we were in for a rough night on Tuesday, to accommodate his 'resting' strategy?
If Moyes were to go soon would we expect Neville and Cahill to figure a lot less in the team lineups, or perhaps follow him to a new club? Or is Neville destined to be the new manager (not necessarily by popular demand)?
I think Karl has a point in that just as Moyes and Kenwright have tied themselves to each other, so in the squad sense have Moyes, Neville and Cahill. Perhaps Moyes wanted to keep them out of the fallout when he (probably) knew we were in for a rough night on Tuesday, to accommodate his 'resting' strategy?
If Moyes were to go soon would we expect Neville and Cahill to figure a lot less in the team lineups, or perhaps follow him to a new club? Or is Neville destined to be the new manager (not necessarily by popular demand)?
Peter (934), fuck off with that tiresome D shite, it sounds like dialogue from a kids comic book.
There is some truth in what Moyes is saying looking at the amount of games lined up and the opposition - it almost looks like the Premier League don't want us to succeed in breaking into the top 6 or Europe.
There is some truth in what Moyes is saying looking at the amount of games lined up and the opposition - it almost looks like the Premier League don't want us to succeed in breaking into the top 6 or Europe.
Mark, Sorry I can't agree.
First off, regardless of what people call for, you have to look at who you are playing. The derby was crying out for Neville's leadership and Cahill's "get in your face" attitude, specifically against Gerrard who was allowed to run the show.
Strac came in at a period when we were so poor up front it was embarrassing. Now we have an apparently ? according to Moyes ? fit Jelavic who had just scored the winner against Spurs. Jags for Heitinga, well only Moyes will ever know the thought process for that one.
He mentioned in interview ? when he still refused to say his changes were over the top ? that he brought in two England Internationals, but, he never mentioned they were back from long-term injuries.
I'm sorry I have heard all the excuses and reasonings for Tuesday's team but in my opinion it is defenceless. An extremely poor decision and his comments after the game a disgrace. If he hasn't got the importance of derby matches after 10 years, he never will.
First off, regardless of what people call for, you have to look at who you are playing. The derby was crying out for Neville's leadership and Cahill's "get in your face" attitude, specifically against Gerrard who was allowed to run the show.
Strac came in at a period when we were so poor up front it was embarrassing. Now we have an apparently ? according to Moyes ? fit Jelavic who had just scored the winner against Spurs. Jags for Heitinga, well only Moyes will ever know the thought process for that one.
He mentioned in interview ? when he still refused to say his changes were over the top ? that he brought in two England Internationals, but, he never mentioned they were back from long-term injuries.
I'm sorry I have heard all the excuses and reasonings for Tuesday's team but in my opinion it is defenceless. An extremely poor decision and his comments after the game a disgrace. If he hasn't got the importance of derby matches after 10 years, he never will.
'Mark - you can't challenge Karl's statement by citing other posters' arguments and views - how does that work?'
Well when the point is that you can't appease all of the fans, it is a very salient point that I don't think really requires any further clarification, Nick. Come back to me if you still can't figure it out.
Well when the point is that you can't appease all of the fans, it is a very salient point that I don't think really requires any further clarification, Nick. Come back to me if you still can't figure it out.
Mark, I understand where you're coming from. However, on seeing that team sheet, my heart sank. I expected a couple of changes but not 6.
Had JH and PN started (i.e. PN at RB not CM) and not Straq and Anichebe then the team would have had a better look to it IMO. Anyway, we will never know and it may not have changed the result.
As said above, the manager's attitude to the defeat is what annoys me more. I did not necessarily expect us to win on Tuesday but to come out after the game with 'not disappointed as we beat Spurs before' and 'no regrets', would appear that he really is/was out of touch with the average fan.
I cannot imagine a manager in a Glasgow, Manchester or Noth London derby coming out with statements like that. KD knew what it was about and his team really looked up for it. He made sure the older heads (Gerrard and Carragher) were on the pitch.
I've been one of the many calling for Cahill to be dropped and playing a more attacking style of football. However, this was mainly aimed at home matches against your Wigans, Blackburns, Boltons etc, not away to one of the better teams in the league.
Whatever people's thoughts on the team, it was wrong as we were trounced and did not lead to a win yesterday. The post-match attitude is what really wrankles for me.
Had JH and PN started (i.e. PN at RB not CM) and not Straq and Anichebe then the team would have had a better look to it IMO. Anyway, we will never know and it may not have changed the result.
As said above, the manager's attitude to the defeat is what annoys me more. I did not necessarily expect us to win on Tuesday but to come out after the game with 'not disappointed as we beat Spurs before' and 'no regrets', would appear that he really is/was out of touch with the average fan.
I cannot imagine a manager in a Glasgow, Manchester or Noth London derby coming out with statements like that. KD knew what it was about and his team really looked up for it. He made sure the older heads (Gerrard and Carragher) were on the pitch.
I've been one of the many calling for Cahill to be dropped and playing a more attacking style of football. However, this was mainly aimed at home matches against your Wigans, Blackburns, Boltons etc, not away to one of the better teams in the league.
Whatever people's thoughts on the team, it was wrong as we were trounced and did not lead to a win yesterday. The post-match attitude is what really wrankles for me.
'Regardless of what people call for, you have to look at who you are playing. The derby was crying out for Neville's leadership and Cahill's "get in your face" attitude, specifically against Gerrard who was allowed to run the show.'
I couldn't agree more, I posted on another thread that I thought we missed Neville's leadership and Cahill's tenacity. But they are things I have been saying on here in defence of Moyes picking these two players all season, including when the team was announced for Spurs and Moyes got annihilated not just for putting these two in, but also Osman as well. Just amazes me how people who 3 days earlier were bemoaning the inclusion of these players, were 3 days later bemoaning their exclusion. Two-faced in the extreme.
I couldn't agree more, I posted on another thread that I thought we missed Neville's leadership and Cahill's tenacity. But they are things I have been saying on here in defence of Moyes picking these two players all season, including when the team was announced for Spurs and Moyes got annihilated not just for putting these two in, but also Osman as well. Just amazes me how people who 3 days earlier were bemoaning the inclusion of these players, were 3 days later bemoaning their exclusion. Two-faced in the extreme.
'KD knew what it was about and his team really looked up for it. He made sure the older heads (Gerrard and Carragher) were on the pitch.'
KD made four changes from the team that had played Sunderland. So either he rested players for Sunderland, or he rested players for us. I personally was delighted to see neither Bellamy or Kuyt starting on Tues. Just goes to show the difference in quality between our squads. Either way he rotated his team just like Moyes did. AND Liverpool had the benefit of an extra day rest before their QF.
KD made four changes from the team that had played Sunderland. So either he rested players for Sunderland, or he rested players for us. I personally was delighted to see neither Bellamy or Kuyt starting on Tues. Just goes to show the difference in quality between our squads. Either way he rotated his team just like Moyes did. AND Liverpool had the benefit of an extra day rest before their QF.
Mark ? or how about you play players on form and have the balls and conviction to drop them when they are out of form? ? a trait sadly missing from Moyes. Whilst he's at it, how about the age-old breaking up a consistent team?
Jags only back from injury and a shadow of Heitinga's form, Rodwell in CM ? just what position is he good in outside of an England shirt? Anichebe on the wing ? well Anichebe on the pitch over anyone? Strac up front after Jelavic had played well in previous game ? why not consider a strike partnership during the game not from the off?
Hindsight or repeating failings? It's not like Moyes hasn't managed the team in derby matches before, he's just failed to win a single one on their turf for a decade.
Jags only back from injury and a shadow of Heitinga's form, Rodwell in CM ? just what position is he good in outside of an England shirt? Anichebe on the wing ? well Anichebe on the pitch over anyone? Strac up front after Jelavic had played well in previous game ? why not consider a strike partnership during the game not from the off?
Hindsight or repeating failings? It's not like Moyes hasn't managed the team in derby matches before, he's just failed to win a single one on their turf for a decade.
Marc, I think a lot of the anger that is still festering is more down to his post-match attitude and comments as opposed to the actual result and team selection (which was not right given we were stuffed).
How to you explain these?
How to you explain these?
'He mentioned in interview ? when he still refused to say his changes were over the top ? that he brought in two England Internationals, but, he never mentioned they were back from long-term injuries.'
Osman and Jelavic both made their returns from injury against Spurs. There weren't any complaints there (well actually there were before, just not afterwards). The man alongside Fellaini who has made the difference in recent weeks was Gibson. Gibson was injured, Rodwell played. End of story on that one.
Johnny Heitinga is player of the season for me but he isn't going to be able to play 5 games in in 14 days (or 7 in 21 days as it will now be) so Moyes needed to, and will need to again, rotate. If you have an England international on the bench who has performed well in previous derbies, then that is an understandable decision.
Osman and Jelavic both made their returns from injury against Spurs. There weren't any complaints there (well actually there were before, just not afterwards). The man alongside Fellaini who has made the difference in recent weeks was Gibson. Gibson was injured, Rodwell played. End of story on that one.
Johnny Heitinga is player of the season for me but he isn't going to be able to play 5 games in in 14 days (or 7 in 21 days as it will now be) so Moyes needed to, and will need to again, rotate. If you have an England international on the bench who has performed well in previous derbies, then that is an understandable decision.
'Marc, I think a lot of the anger that is still festering is more down to his post-match attitude and comments as opposed to the actual result and team selection (which was not right given we were stuffed).
How to you explain these?'
I'm not trying to. It's not a debate I have got myself involved in. I am talking simply about the selection. If you don't have a problem with the selection then my comments don't concern you. You obviously do though, so they do. PS we might have got stuffed if Osman, Neville and Cahill had started at Anfield, too. And if we had, it would almost definitely have been blamed on Moyes's insistence with picking these players.
How to you explain these?'
I'm not trying to. It's not a debate I have got myself involved in. I am talking simply about the selection. If you don't have a problem with the selection then my comments don't concern you. You obviously do though, so they do. PS we might have got stuffed if Osman, Neville and Cahill had started at Anfield, too. And if we had, it would almost definitely have been blamed on Moyes's insistence with picking these players.
What are your thoughts on his post match comments?
Just curious.
(Leaving team selection aside)
Just curious.
(Leaving team selection aside)
'Mark or how about you play players on form'
What, like Pienaar and Stracq?
What, like Pienaar and Stracq?
'How about the age-old breaking up a consistent team? Jags only back from injury and a shadow of Heitinga's form, Rodwell in CM ? just what position is he good in outside of an England shirt? Anichebe on the wing'
As I've said, you can't play 7 games in 21 days. Moyes needs to rotate.
As I've said, you can't play 7 games in 21 days. Moyes needs to rotate.
Heitinga was clearly not dropped, he was rested. As for Rodwell coming in, well our recent successful centre midfield partnership of Gibson and Fellaini has been broken up because of injury to Gibson. It is no surprise to me to see Rodwell (who has played in that position for England) brought in to cover there.
Going by players not being able to play all them games Mark, we should then expect Baines, Fellaini and Distin to be rested at some point, especially Fellaini and Baines, as they probalby put more of a shift in than most?
Mark 979; The whole point for me is that, at any given time Moyes does not know his best 11 nor how to play them, he seems to be forever zigging when he should be zagging.
He has (again to me) had problems (in simplistic terms) with horses for courses and square pegs in round holes. He always seems to get it wrong. All this allied to the "if in doubt, defend" policy.
Someone has said it before, he should be at say (with all due respect) Wigan ? they need to keep it tight to stay in the Prem.
We, even in our poor cash state, 'could' be pushing for 4th and with any sort of small Investment it is do-able, again IMO.
He has (again to me) had problems (in simplistic terms) with horses for courses and square pegs in round holes. He always seems to get it wrong. All this allied to the "if in doubt, defend" policy.
Someone has said it before, he should be at say (with all due respect) Wigan ? they need to keep it tight to stay in the Prem.
We, even in our poor cash state, 'could' be pushing for 4th and with any sort of small Investment it is do-able, again IMO.
Dennis, I think Moyes should be disappointed with not just the defeat, but also the manner of defeat. And I imagine that he is.
What is the actual point he made? ... that if he'd come away from the 2 games with two draws he'd consider that a reasonable outcome? So he couldn't be too disappointed because he got 3, rather than 2 points.
Ironically there probably would have been less complaining on here if we had drawn both games, even though we'd be a point worse off, the manager has to be a bit more pragmatic.
What is the actual point he made? ... that if he'd come away from the 2 games with two draws he'd consider that a reasonable outcome? So he couldn't be too disappointed because he got 3, rather than 2 points.
Ironically there probably would have been less complaining on here if we had drawn both games, even though we'd be a point worse off, the manager has to be a bit more pragmatic.
Moyes took a gamble against Liverpool and some can see some justification in that approach but on the night it didn't work. However, given we now have another game to play, rotating players and ensuring players coming back from injury ie Jags, Rodwell, Anichebe get some game time may ultimately be to our benefit.
Ultimately it will boil down to results and DM will be judged as he has for the past 10years by the Board and fans alike. Some won't like that and are desperate for change; you pay your money you take your choice.
Ultimately it will boil down to results and DM will be judged as he has for the past 10years by the Board and fans alike. Some won't like that and are desperate for change; you pay your money you take your choice.
'Going by players not being able to play all them games Mark, we should then expect Baines, Fellaini and Distin to be rested at some point, especially Fellaini and Baines, as they probalby put more of a shift in than most?'
I would be amazed if Distin and Fellaini play all 7 games. If they do, I predict at the worst injury and the very least a huge reduction in their effectiveness. As for Baines, the problem is a lack of cover. That is a real problem facing Moyes, if Luke Garbutt wasn't at Cheltenham he might well have been making his Everton debut this month.
I would be amazed if Distin and Fellaini play all 7 games. If they do, I predict at the worst injury and the very least a huge reduction in their effectiveness. As for Baines, the problem is a lack of cover. That is a real problem facing Moyes, if Luke Garbutt wasn't at Cheltenham he might well have been making his Everton debut this month.
Mark, what's the difference of starting a player or bringing them on when we've lost the game ? resting is an excuse and a decision that backfired. Again the statement of what position has Rodwell played well in OUTSIDE of an England shirt?
Playing 7 games in 21 days, is like the argument of buying an expensive car and leaving it in a garage to gather dust in case it breaks, it might break at any moment, do you not use it and gain the use of it over a complete aversion of risk? Or are those league games within the 7 different in terms of points on the table? Or are you saying you surrender the opportunity to challenge a game so you don't break a player?
Mark, players on form over players not on form, again some selective memory problem you have there, how many shite games did Cahill have from the start of the season until Christmas? Pienaar has only been back since the end of January, Stracq didn't get a look-in until Moyes had no-one else to play. Where is Vellios? Where is Barkley?
Playing 7 games in 21 days, is like the argument of buying an expensive car and leaving it in a garage to gather dust in case it breaks, it might break at any moment, do you not use it and gain the use of it over a complete aversion of risk? Or are those league games within the 7 different in terms of points on the table? Or are you saying you surrender the opportunity to challenge a game so you don't break a player?
Mark, players on form over players not on form, again some selective memory problem you have there, how many shite games did Cahill have from the start of the season until Christmas? Pienaar has only been back since the end of January, Stracq didn't get a look-in until Moyes had no-one else to play. Where is Vellios? Where is Barkley?
'Playing 7 games in 21 days, is like the argument of buying an expensive car and leaving it in a garage to gather dust in case it breaks, it might break at any moment, do you not use it and gain the use of it over a complete aversion of risk? Or are those league games within the 7 different in terms of points on the table or are you saying you surrender the opportunity to challenge a game so you don't break a player?'
It's not at all. Tell me what you know about the mechanisms of fatigue during intermittent high intensity exercise and the nature of recovery from eccentric muscle damage. None of these are things that your car has to concern itself with too much. Tell me how the ability to resist fatigue during future bouts can be predicted by excess post exercise oxygen consumption and how heart rate variability is a useful indicator of recovery status and how these indices are used to make informed decisions about the use of multi million pound assets. What about the exacerbation of (epoc) or depression (hrv) of these indices during repeated bouts with only partial recovery?
It's not at all. Tell me what you know about the mechanisms of fatigue during intermittent high intensity exercise and the nature of recovery from eccentric muscle damage. None of these are things that your car has to concern itself with too much. Tell me how the ability to resist fatigue during future bouts can be predicted by excess post exercise oxygen consumption and how heart rate variability is a useful indicator of recovery status and how these indices are used to make informed decisions about the use of multi million pound assets. What about the exacerbation of (epoc) or depression (hrv) of these indices during repeated bouts with only partial recovery?
Regarding the point made about would two draws have been more acceptable than the one win and one defeat that actually happened, in the circumstances prevailing at the moment (no relegation fears, no chance of a CL spot) the extra point is neither here nor there and I for one would much have preferred to draw the two games rather than beat Spurs then get mugged at Anfield,
Mark - I think Karl's point is about the staleness of the Moyes/Neville/Cahill 'culture' and the need to freshen the whole place up rather than just drop them for any single game. In fact he didn't even refer to the derby, but you made the assumption that he meant that because of previous posters' comments. Like I said I see his comments to be a verdict on the whole state of the playing side at the club.
My personal anger towards Moyes is based on the utter shite style of football we are still playing after 10 years.
Hoof, hit and hope for flick on, usually to no one, the goalie or out of play. God help anyone if they try shooting.
The only success we get is if we play dour defensive football, score first and hang on for the remainder.
After 10 years this is just not acceptable especially at home... The constant excuse that the opposition have a bigger budget is bollocks. Just look at the way Swansea play. Admittedly it is only the first season in the Prem, but it is all about tactics and the will to entertain your fans, something which Moyes just doesn't seem to care about.
The crap Round and Neville come out with after the match just makes it worse.
Hoof, hit and hope for flick on, usually to no one, the goalie or out of play. God help anyone if they try shooting.
The only success we get is if we play dour defensive football, score first and hang on for the remainder.
After 10 years this is just not acceptable especially at home... The constant excuse that the opposition have a bigger budget is bollocks. Just look at the way Swansea play. Admittedly it is only the first season in the Prem, but it is all about tactics and the will to entertain your fans, something which Moyes just doesn't seem to care about.
The crap Round and Neville come out with after the match just makes it worse.
Back to the OP, when did Moyes think the derby should have been played? Not this week (Arsenal game). Not next week (has to be left clear for a replay ? and we have that replay!) In the Easter schedule perhaps, which follows straight after? In the week leading up to a semi final perhaps ? the next week after all those I've mentioned? Before the final? During Euro 2012?
The truth is that last week was the ideal time to play Liverpool ? we were on a 9-match unbeaten run and they had lost 3 league games on the run and had put up a wholly unconvincing performance against Cardiff. Ideal that is if the derby actually means anything to you in the first place.
The truth is that last week was the ideal time to play Liverpool ? we were on a 9-match unbeaten run and they had lost 3 league games on the run and had put up a wholly unconvincing performance against Cardiff. Ideal that is if the derby actually means anything to you in the first place.
Mark, you seem to know what you're talking about. I'm a flat roofer, up and down ladders all day, stripping large areas of felt off roofs, carrying rolls of felt, using all the muscles in my body. How am I able to do that 5 days a week, all year round, but footballers can't play x amount of games in x amount of days?
Why did he rest Heitinga then, and not Distin? If there's any player in our team, besides goalie, that could play 7 games in 21 days, it's Heitinga. The guy is a picture of health and plays in a style and in a team that doesn't require too much field coverage from its centre halves.
I'll bet you good money that Baines and Fellaini play every game in this current run - arguably more fatiguing positions than Johnny's.
I'll bet you good money that Baines and Fellaini play every game in this current run - arguably more fatiguing positions than Johnny's.
Meant to say 'Used to be a flat roofer'
Karl (010) I was trying to interpret your position in my 009 post - but I think I sold you short - there's more passion and anger than i had tried to suggest. Good on you.
I suspect that henceforth we shall see continual rotation of Jags, Heitinga and Distin in the same way that Moyes used to do when he had Yobo, Stubbs and Weir to choose from.
Some will say that Davey is at his most indecisive when he has players available and choices to make but squad rotation is commonplace in the Prem and nearly all managers would be hard put to name their `best XI`.
Some will say that Davey is at his most indecisive when he has players available and choices to make but squad rotation is commonplace in the Prem and nearly all managers would be hard put to name their `best XI`.
Brian, absolutely. It's actually pretty obvious isn't it? Tell you what, meet me in the Spellow before Arsenal and I'll buy you a pint and explain it.
Roman, as I've said before, I'd be surprised if Distin plays all of these games. For me, the decision rests on the rate of recovery. You don't risk a player who has not fully recovered (not repetitively, anyway).
If Baines's rate of recovery starts to extend then he is ok to play, isn't he. Same for Fellaini. If they start to show a severely depressed hrv for extended periods, decreased economy of movement etc, then they are less able to resist fatigue and if a good quality player is able to come in and replace them, then you rotate.
If you don't, they'll be blowing out their arses halfway through the first half, they'll be at increased risk of injury and their recovery time will increase, meaning they will miss more games in the future, their form will decrease because ability to produce force is reduced, thus reducing speed, impulse and so on and so forth. So it depends on the individual, doesn't it.
If Baines's rate of recovery starts to extend then he is ok to play, isn't he. Same for Fellaini. If they start to show a severely depressed hrv for extended periods, decreased economy of movement etc, then they are less able to resist fatigue and if a good quality player is able to come in and replace them, then you rotate.
If you don't, they'll be blowing out their arses halfway through the first half, they'll be at increased risk of injury and their recovery time will increase, meaning they will miss more games in the future, their form will decrease because ability to produce force is reduced, thus reducing speed, impulse and so on and so forth. So it depends on the individual, doesn't it.
Mark 001, I can see what you're saying but we'll have to agree to disagree. The derby with the RS is nowhere near like any other game in the calendar and the manager should at least acknowledge that.
He obviously played a weaker team, concentrating on the cup, and it didn't come off ? fair enough. However, at least admit it rather than (for me anyway) coming across as being smug with the 'no regrets', got 3 points against Spurs etc.
I don't live in Liverpool; however, coming from London and having most of my mates being Spurs and Arsenal fans, I know how much the North London derby means to them. I think Moyes's attitude was wrong and a few previous pro-Moyes fans will be scratching their heads after that.
He obviously played a weaker team, concentrating on the cup, and it didn't come off ? fair enough. However, at least admit it rather than (for me anyway) coming across as being smug with the 'no regrets', got 3 points against Spurs etc.
I don't live in Liverpool; however, coming from London and having most of my mates being Spurs and Arsenal fans, I know how much the North London derby means to them. I think Moyes's attitude was wrong and a few previous pro-Moyes fans will be scratching their heads after that.
Mark, It's no good going on about 5 games in 5 days and shite like that. Let's just get it straight: Everton played Spurs after a 2-week break! So the derby match was 2 games in 4 days. The Sunderland was 3 in a week. As far as I'm concerned, play your best team and reassess after each game regarding injuries/bookings and then pick your best team with whoever is available.
If Heitinga, Neville, Cahill, Osman, Jelavic were knackered after ONE game, ie, Spurs, then they all need to be fucked off!!!
If Heitinga, Neville, Cahill, Osman, Jelavic were knackered after ONE game, ie, Spurs, then they all need to be fucked off!!!
'As far as I'm concerned play your best team and reassess after each game regarding injuries/bookings and then pick your best team with whoever is available'
Yeah but there are convincing arguments for and against and my point from the start has been that you can't please everyone. I have had the same people who were telling me a few weeks ago they would rather win the cup and finish 17th in the league now complaining that Moyes put the cup before a league game. It's hypocritical and two faced and all it says to me is these people don't actually know what they want ? or that they just want to complain whatever happens.
Yeah but there are convincing arguments for and against and my point from the start has been that you can't please everyone. I have had the same people who were telling me a few weeks ago they would rather win the cup and finish 17th in the league now complaining that Moyes put the cup before a league game. It's hypocritical and two faced and all it says to me is these people don't actually know what they want ? or that they just want to complain whatever happens.
Any Evertonian, like me, looks to the derby match as our priority, with us having to live alongside reds fans every day of our lives. If we are winning trophies, it does lose some of its significance but, at times like these ? shit football, no hope and the most negative management team in our history ? we expect not to lose two derbies in one season.
We could have demoralised an already downtrodden Reds side by hopping above them in the table; this would probably have been their worst nightmare, with us then on a 10-game unbeaten run and they having lost 4 in a row. We would have gone into the Cup game on a high with MON shitting himself.
After what he seen at Anfield on Tuesday, with our lack of spirit and stench of defeatism, I reckon it saved him a team talk. Winning becomes a habit ? and so does losing. What happened to Lying bastard Moyes and his "League comes first" philosophy? Or does that only count when we don't play the reds?
5-0 in two derbies is disgraceful and if he hasn't learned what that game means in 10 years, then it's time he took all his defensive coaches and fucked off somewhere else. Seeing what Brendan Rodgers has done with less money shits on the usual "poor Davey" claptrap. With a proper coach teaching the right tactics, our players could do a lot more. If we don't win the replay, then Sunderland should be what Midd'boro was to Walter Smith.
We could have demoralised an already downtrodden Reds side by hopping above them in the table; this would probably have been their worst nightmare, with us then on a 10-game unbeaten run and they having lost 4 in a row. We would have gone into the Cup game on a high with MON shitting himself.
After what he seen at Anfield on Tuesday, with our lack of spirit and stench of defeatism, I reckon it saved him a team talk. Winning becomes a habit ? and so does losing. What happened to Lying bastard Moyes and his "League comes first" philosophy? Or does that only count when we don't play the reds?
5-0 in two derbies is disgraceful and if he hasn't learned what that game means in 10 years, then it's time he took all his defensive coaches and fucked off somewhere else. Seeing what Brendan Rodgers has done with less money shits on the usual "poor Davey" claptrap. With a proper coach teaching the right tactics, our players could do a lot more. If we don't win the replay, then Sunderland should be what Midd'boro was to Walter Smith.
Mick,
Spot on, heartfelt assessment.
Many will cite statistics, theories, tactics, strategies ad nauseum.
The kind of thing that defines certain American sports, such as Football, and renders them boring spectacles with little or no spontaneity.
The real football is much, much, much more than that, and at its heart is the human spirit which drives the passion that many on this site exemplify week in week out.
Nothing draws out this spitit more than a derby, the real derby, so the pathetic display served up earlier this week deserves the criticism it got on this site.
Games like this mean so much to the people who should matter most, the fans.
Argue all you like about 2 points or 3 points, resting players etc. etc.
Moyes got it wrong in the eyes of any true blue. No amount of statistical, logical analysis will change that fact.
This is why football is such a beautiful game.
Spot on, heartfelt assessment.
Many will cite statistics, theories, tactics, strategies ad nauseum.
The kind of thing that defines certain American sports, such as Football, and renders them boring spectacles with little or no spontaneity.
The real football is much, much, much more than that, and at its heart is the human spirit which drives the passion that many on this site exemplify week in week out.
Nothing draws out this spitit more than a derby, the real derby, so the pathetic display served up earlier this week deserves the criticism it got on this site.
Games like this mean so much to the people who should matter most, the fans.
Argue all you like about 2 points or 3 points, resting players etc. etc.
Moyes got it wrong in the eyes of any true blue. No amount of statistical, logical analysis will change that fact.
This is why football is such a beautiful game.
I think Moyes is a very clever man stay at a club for 10 years and win fuck all and get paid £60,000 a week. Why did I send my kids to uni and have debts for fucking years when I could've tried to get them jobs as football managers or or even better a TV pundit?
As for the semi-final draw... stick it. I aint going. I never got over the 1986 final ? how did that Shite beat my blessed blues?
I will be there against Arsenal though at Goodison
As for the semi-final draw... stick it. I aint going. I never got over the 1986 final ? how did that Shite beat my blessed blues?
I will be there against Arsenal though at Goodison
Mark, I appreciate what you say whenever you talk about the physicality of football, as you have said it's your career. What doesn't add up though is, if a centre half isn't fit enough to start a game, why are they sat on the bench? If Moyes had to have a centre half on the bench, but Heitinga wasn't fit enough to start, why wasn't Duffy on the bench?
As has been mentioned above, we had two weeks off prior to the Spurs game. Jelavic played 60 minutes of that game, but couldn't start in place of arguably the worst player Everton have ever had, who was also coming back from injury? Doesn't add up to me.
As has been mentioned above, we had two weeks off prior to the Spurs game. Jelavic played 60 minutes of that game, but couldn't start in place of arguably the worst player Everton have ever had, who was also coming back from injury? Doesn't add up to me.
Ian @ 814 & 830
Why does it all have to be down to finances? I wouldn't like to see some of the brats Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd or any of the other so-called big clubs have on their books playing for Everton, a lot of money being sqandered by them!
I believe we should be in more healthy position than we currently are; EFC have been very good to its past servants!! Why do all these multi-millionaires want invest in Premier League clubs? There must be a lot of hidden profit to be had that I/we don't know about!
By the way, I'm no supporter of BK, he's a bit of an ol arse! You only have to look at Rangers, Hearts, Portsmouth to name a few... what is it about Bates at Leeds ? does he own it or not? Another ol arse!
Something is not right at Everton but take a look around, it's not our game anymore: full of corruption... it's a bit sickening to say the least!
As for "back then", I remember when Kendall was on the verge of getting the sack! And he didn't have a ball of money to spend either but Everton made some shrewd buys, I think it was a League Cup match against Oxford Utd that seemed to turn things around and we didn't look back after that, we played some great stuff back then!!
Why does it all have to be down to finances? I wouldn't like to see some of the brats Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd or any of the other so-called big clubs have on their books playing for Everton, a lot of money being sqandered by them!
I believe we should be in more healthy position than we currently are; EFC have been very good to its past servants!! Why do all these multi-millionaires want invest in Premier League clubs? There must be a lot of hidden profit to be had that I/we don't know about!
By the way, I'm no supporter of BK, he's a bit of an ol arse! You only have to look at Rangers, Hearts, Portsmouth to name a few... what is it about Bates at Leeds ? does he own it or not? Another ol arse!
Something is not right at Everton but take a look around, it's not our game anymore: full of corruption... it's a bit sickening to say the least!
As for "back then", I remember when Kendall was on the verge of getting the sack! And he didn't have a ball of money to spend either but Everton made some shrewd buys, I think it was a League Cup match against Oxford Utd that seemed to turn things around and we didn't look back after that, we played some great stuff back then!!
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
© ToffeeWeb
Top of the Page
782 Posted 17/03/2012 at 16:52:04
Report abuse
Is that so Dave?
How many did you drop for the league game at Anfield?
Actions speak louder than words you imposter.