Everton News, Season 2011-12

Everton lead in performance analytics

02/05/2012 |  163 Comments: First  |  Last
Everton are currently one of the Premier League's most innovative and progressive teams when it comes to the use of performance analytics. The team has been using match data analysis ever since David Moyes first became manager at Goodison in 2002.

"Moyes wanted something in place to provide him with extensive information because he's so detailed, thorough and methodical in his work," said Steve Brown, First Team Performance Analyst at Everton. The fundamental basis for Everton's pre and postmatch work is provided by the Prozone software which provides the eventing details, player tracking and physical data from which Brown and his team build their analysis.

The climate of change when it comes to use of data for match analysis is probably best reflected in the transformation in players' attitudes. Today, at Everton it's commonly used and accepted at every level down from the senior squad to the youth academy.

"I think initially some players were sceptical toward it," said Brown. "I've had past experiences where people have viewed it as a negative tool and if it's used wrongly it can be damaging in the coaching process."

There's no question that some among the old guard of players within the professional ranks were initially apprehensive or resentful toward the data and questioned not only its application, but its usefulness. "That was where the main boundaries lay," said Brown.

"Some of the older generation of players who weren't as familiar with working in a detailed analysis process — of which we do a large amount of at Everton. At Everton, they've had to buy into the process and if they don't buy into the process, they'll just get frustrated because of the way the manager works here."

Original Source: Sports Illustrated

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Michael Kenrick
150   Posted 02/05/2012 at 14:38:02

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Many thanks to Derek O'Neill for pointing us to this interesting article from Sports Illustrated, the major sports magazine in the US that for many years despised 'Soccer' as a valid sport, focusing almost exclusively on the major sports in the USA, and some rather nice ladies in swimsuits.

As the article reads, with the like of Tim Howard and Landon Donovan playing for Everton, it's a bit harder to ignore European Soccer these days, with live games now occasionally getting airtime on the national channels, Fox and ESPN.
James Martin
151   Posted 02/05/2012 at 14:46:12

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If you read the whole thing I think it refutes the unfounded notions that Moyes is tacitcally inept, approaches every game the same way, is archaic, and hasn't moved Everton forward in 10 years.
Paul David
152   Posted 02/05/2012 at 14:45:03

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Moyes brought in the idea to use this but its obvious he must ignore it when he feels like. It was documented earlier in the season that Cahill had covered more ground than most players in the league but was down with the keepers for the amount of touches per game.

And it doesn't take technology to see that Saha couldn't be arsed and was never going to score.
Michael Kenrick
153   Posted 02/05/2012 at 14:51:23

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And if you extrapolate the premise, his leading focus on performance analytics has totally failed where it matters most... WINNING TROPHIES!!!
Ciarán McGlone
156   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:01:14

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Waffle.
Shaun Brennan
162   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:19:56

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Football Manager for professionals and grown ups!! ha ha!
Sam Morrison
163   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:23:09

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Let's take a positive and turn it into a negative!

Oh sorry I forgot, it's a myth that TW does that.
Steve King
164   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:18:35

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I would be interested to hear your opinion on the trophy winning exploits of the teams around us in the league when Moyes took over?

www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/league-table.html?season=2001-2002&month=MARCH&timelineView=date&tableView=CURRENT_STANDINGS

Relegation was a matter of "when" not "if" back then!
I will be forever grateful to Moyes for taking us away from those dark days......trophies or not!!
Shane Corcoran
170   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:36:30

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Me too Steve but we are where we are now and I assume you'd like to see progress being made while still being grateful for the past?
James Martin
171   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:35:04

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Someone should really find or construct some sort of table which puts everyone's (outside of the old Sky 4's) trophy records next to each other. These should only be trophies that Moyes has actually competed for with Everton. How many clubs will have won trophies? There'll be a few anomalies like Portsmouth and Birmingham who benefitted from a combination of investment, bad final opposition, and luck, to win theirs. Should Moyes be as criticised as harshly as he is for not winning anything? Where is a comparable counterpart to compare him to?
Danny Kewley
173   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:19:42

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If I was fortunate enough to be a manager of a Premier League football side, especially Everton there would be no need for performance analysis data!

I mean surely to fuck you could figure out with the power of your own brain who performs and who disney!
Jamie Barlow
174   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:39:43

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I bet The Yak didn't like it.
Denis Richardson
175   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:49:23

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Would love to see what the analysis said about Billy for the 2.5 years he warmed the bench, whilst picking up 40k a week...

The scottish rooney would also be interesting....he must be bloody good in training...
Charlie Dixon
179   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:37:19

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I could not agree more with Steve King on this. I?ve stayed quiet on this as I?ve had my moments with Moyes (even demanding he resigned when I got on 5 live after leaving the Hawthorne?s having been stuffed 4-0 a few years back). However his record over the last 8 years has been as follows (ripped of the Beeb);

2001-02: 15th
2002-03: 7th
2003-04: 17th
2004-05: 4th (qualified for Champions League)
2005-06: 11th
2006-07: 6th (qualified for Uefa Cup)
2007-08: 5th (qualified for Uefa Cup)
2008-09: 5th (qualified for Uefa Cup)
2009-10: 8th
2010-11: 7th

I think I can speak for my generation of blues (26year old) that he has been quite the god send from the dross we had to endure season on season before. His transfer dealings have 90% of the time been great and his net spend speaks huge volumes on what he?s achieved. You only need to ask a non-Evertonian what they think of Moyes to see his stature in the game, not that they matter I might add.

I know the football we have played at times doesn?t showcase the quality of our squad and that frustrates me big time, but I believe we can be all too quick to forget that this is HIS squad. I know we have a great history and that as a blue we shouldn?t be drowning in elation at a top 7 finish but from my OWN experience the man has saved us years of nervous terror come april/may and even worse I believe, the regular away trips to Turf Moor and Portman Road we?d have to endure had we been relegated. I was in Kharkiv and Nurenbourg and will never forget doing the Mancs at Wembley.

I?m not saying he?s as a result free from critism, far from it in fact, but I think he at least deserves another couple of years to try and win us that trophy or get us in Europe again as after all without him IMHO we?d have none of the above. Martinez/Rodgers/Adkins don?t do it for me afraid.

Now I know having listened to Dad?s tales of Rotterdam 85 that I?m not setting the bar very high, but without him I dread that we?d slip back into that dross side (bar the big man) throughout the 90?s that I?d rather never have to witness again. Still it was easier to get away tickets then. Maybe that says something!

Kenwright on the otherhand???.
Mike Green
180   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:01:37

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MK #153 - it's a very valid point, albeit rather old fashioned! :)
Denis Richardson
183   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:00:32

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Charlie, as said many times, no one (at least none that I have read) are disputing his record in the early years. However, many (including me) feel its time for a change as the squad he has now has great potential and we feel another manager (don't bother with the 'who would you have instead?' question) could do better and also put a lot more pressure on BK.

Its too cosy a relationship between the two and things have gotten stale (yes the last couple of months have been good but they don't make up for the first 5 months or the semi final for me.).

He could also do better with transfers IMO. Every club has to sell and buy so I don't go along with this whole complex about benig a 'selling club'. E.g. we should have moved Billy on much earlier and should have taken the 12-14m offered for Jags last summer. Added to that there are loads of players on a free every season and Gibson is the only one in the recent past that we've approached (got a low price as his contract was up at the end of this season). On the other hand he moans constantly above not havving any money - either put more pressue on the board or stf up about it - we know!

Just my thoughts.

For me to change my mind, we will have to finally start a season running and play decent football for a hell of a lot of games. A couple of months is a start but he will have to show positive football for a lot longer than that for me to be happy to have him as manager for another 5 years. Also he can try leading from the front and taking a 20% paycut himself instead of preaching about it - he'd still take home 2.4m a year!
Kevin Tully
184   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:09:41

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And the trailblazer who first used all these stat's and performance enhancing technologies, non other than......... Mr. Sam Allardyce.

I wonder what Cloughie used when he picked up those European Cups ?
Danny Broderick
185   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:14:16

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I went to a Q & A session with Mick Rathbone in London just before Christmas, and in answer to one question, he said that Moyesie believes that the team that runs the most generally wins the game. There is no specific data which confirms this scientifically, but this is one of the reasons why Moyesie pushes the players so hard in training, and favours hard working attacking players over mavericks.

It doesn't really surprise me that he uses stats to monitor the players. I think most managers use such data these days.
Tony J Williams
186   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:18:40

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Dennis, perhaps he would take a 20% paycut if he had a smidgeon of belief that he would be a trendsetter....

He would be laughed at and Peter Barry would probably call him tactically inept when dealing with contracts etc.
Eugene Ruane
187   Posted 02/05/2012 at 15:55:22

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Sam Morrison (163) - like the attempted sleight-of-hand, but (as the teenagers say) fail.

Raising your eyes, you say..

"Let's take a positive and turn it into a negative! Oh sorry I forgot, it's a myth that TW does that"

I'm sure there will be one or two tutting along with you.

"Yeah, bloody miserable TW negative...er...typical! Tut....TUT! TCH! PAH!" etc blah.

However (nb: BIG however) you don't explain WHY it is a positive.

Or say why YOU think it's a positive.

I've no doubt some could make a good argument for it, but know just as many could legitimately say "waste of time".

For me, if we'd started using it at half-time in the Swansea game, I'd actually be all for it.

But based the last 10 years? (stats: no fucking trophies, never looked like winning one, played loads of shite hoof-ball)

Biiiiiig waste of time.

By the way, if TW is (as you imply) so negative and you prefer positive, why do you read so many posts?

97.6% of those with average intellect think that doesn't make much sense.
Paul David
188   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:22:14

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Danny if thats true it says it all really,wont come as a surprise to a lot of us.
Steve King
193   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:15:33

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Shane,

Of course we all want to see continued progress.

However I try to look at the situation realistically and I believe that responsibility for our continued progress (or lack of it) is split equally between the Manager and the Board.
IMO the manager has done his bit, the progress has recently stalled, but the finger is all too often pointed at the wrong person.

I understand his frustration as manager. The company I work for treats us in a similar manner. For years we have been building towards certain goals and KPI's, and our progress is often praised buy the board. However they keep cutting budgets and selling our best assets and we need to go out and find cheaper replacements and yet continue to improve our results. I just thank god we dont have millions (???) of fans around the world scrutinising our every move and result as well!!!

But then again, as I'm sure someone will point out, I dont get paid £3m a year either!!
Tony J Williams
194   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:22:00

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"Moyesie believes that the team that runs the most generally wins the game" - It's just a pity that most of them run to stand next to a defender, not into space
Charlie Dixon
195   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:40:00

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Thanks Denis, i agree with a lot of what you said. Especially regarding selling players at the right time. Not sure on Jags but i remember Saha was subject to a £10m bid from Wolfsburg and we turned it down. I do feel however though that you have to answer the question of who you'd replace him with as that surely that comprises you're whole arguement of getting rid. Who will improve us?
Tony J Williams
197   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:48:03

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Eugene we all know that 27.% of stats are made up on the spot!
Michael Kenrick
198   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:45:14

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James Martin (#171), the only comparison needed is this:

? 10 years as the leading light in 'performance analytics';

? Major Trophies competed for.. 34;

? Major Trophies won: BIG FAT ZERO.

Yet he's now the "Greatest Manager in the World" (sic) ? according to The Bleacher Report.

At least some of us are still retaining our sanity despite the barrage of nonsense being published to further inflate his standing in the world of football. I shouldn't mind really... if it's all true then he surely cannot remain at Goodison for much longer?
Charlie Dixon
200   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:54:00

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Who'd you think we could and should replace him with Michael?
Paul David
201   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:57:46

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Charlie

Anyone who takes the shackles off.
Michael Kenrick
202   Posted 02/05/2012 at 16:56:55

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Charlie,

This is how it works:

He leaves when he leaves, and not before.

Whoever is chosen to replace him, replaces him.

Everton move forward into a new era, and we as fans give the new bloke, whoever he is, plenty of latitude (usually) to prove himself... look how much Moyes got ? and continues to get, from a huge section of the fanbase.

But until that happens, I see no point whatsoever in speculating who that might be.

Sorry to disappoint you but that's the way it is.
Stephen Leary
203   Posted 02/05/2012 at 17:07:01

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I tend to agree with you Michael the facts are there for themselves ten years no trophies. Moyes frustrates the hell out of me, he really does. Sometimes I'm thinking he is the one or can be when we play lovely stuff like we have v Fulham, Sunderland, Swansea.

Even the 1st half last night we continued to pass against that horrible Stoke side and looked good, but then all the failings when it really matters makes my opinion easy for me, we need a change this summer, he has had his chance.
Eugene Ruane
205   Posted 02/05/2012 at 17:33:38

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Tony J - And did you know, smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics?

Worrying.
Barry Rathbone
207   Posted 02/05/2012 at 17:27:27

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Danny (185)

You nearly made me cry.

like many I know this is what Moyes believes just by the type of player he goes for and how we play.

But occasionally I delude myself thinking maybe it's not so - maybe circumstance is the reason like so many plea.

From the horses mouth so to speak is just so desperately disheartening.

Please please someone take him away.
James Morgan
208   Posted 02/05/2012 at 17:33:46

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If we all said 'let's pick our best 11 from the Premier League' I can guarantee it would look quite different from the team that Prozone stats would have us believe is the best team.
Bottom line, you can make stats look how you want them to look. Goals scored, conceded and points won are the ones that matter.
Charlie Dixon
212   Posted 02/05/2012 at 17:48:29

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Fair enough Michael. For me, we'd have to have someone lined before he goes but that wont happen under this regime.
I'd worry that Steve Bruce etc would be in line for a job then the BOB (Bruce Out Brigade) would start this whole thing over again. I think back to my original post, my point is, surely another year or two with Moyes isnt the wosre thing that can happen. Call me a pessermist but i cant face all that relegation bother again.
Denis Richardson
222   Posted 02/05/2012 at 18:49:30

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Tony, 186 - someone has to go first and if he did so publicly I think it would send out a clear message and he'd certainly have my utmost respect. Its otherwise a little rich for him to say players should take a 20% pay cut when he's the 2nd highest earner at our club!

Also keep in mind he woudl still be on 2.4m a year...... so he doesnt need to worry about his pension!

Stones in glass houses and all that.
James Bowman
223   Posted 02/05/2012 at 18:41:55

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A manager trying to improve himself for the good of my club... I like that. I would like to see Moyes given the money to have a go before we pack him off, then I would feel fair comparisons could be made. So for me, the same for as many seasons before, the cash flow remains the problem. This responsibility lies with the board.

Pushing the blame around constantly gets us nowhere. The same debate time after time.

The Everton board need to do something to inspire me and the many other Everton fans to put their hands in their pockets and pass that cash over. Whether that be through transfers, services, whatever... the Jelavic trip will only last so long and look what a positive effect that has had.

The board needs to now build off this and show the belief we show week in, week out.

Until then, Moyes has my vote.

COYB
John Ford
225   Posted 02/05/2012 at 18:53:02

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Moyes excels in insisting that midfielders fulfill a defensive roll , this is referred to in the article as something he looks to exploit in opponents. This put me in mind of two examples....Drenthe getting bollocked by two players after diving/sitting on his arse while the oppo charged up the field. The other is Cahill and Osman busting their lungs last night to get back after we lost the ball. Its not sexy stuff but is one of the main reasons why we continue to edge most teams.

Winning trophies would obviously be fantastic, but (repeating many posters on TW) - trophies are pretty the sole preserve of money clubs...thats why they spend their money.... so in the modern game it cant be the only measure of success. I just wish our man would have more confidence in crunch games.
Denis Richardson
226   Posted 02/05/2012 at 18:49:30

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Tony, 186 - someone has to go first and if he did so publicly I think it would send out a clear message and he'd certainly have my utmost respect. Its otherwise a little rich for him to say players should take a 20% pay cut when he's the 2nd highest earner at our club!

Also keep in mind he woudl still be on 2.4m a year...... so he doesnt need to worry about his pension!

Stones in glass houses and all that.
Sam Morrison
230   Posted 02/05/2012 at 19:22:47

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Eugene, you assign too much importance - or infer too much information from - one flippant post. You don't need me to explain what is 'positive' about the above, and obviously I understand there are ways to view it negatively.

What made me chuckle - or resort to sarcasm, I admit it - is the immediate MK remarks. For me they sit at odds with his occasional insistence that TW is not negative. But that's just my take on it.

And I read posts because I like it here. I disagree with much of what MK says though, and sometimes I say so.
Howard Don
232   Posted 02/05/2012 at 19:45:16

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When are we going to hear the end of the tired old nonesense which can be summarised as - Moyes has never won a trophy therfore Moyes is not a good Manager.
In the PL as currently structured, it shouldn't even need anyone to even waste time on explaining why it's a total fallacy lacking in any sensible logic. As James 171 says the only trophys (Cups only) won outside of the old Sky 4 have been the odd freaks like Portsmouth who by the way got relegated the same season and went into administration the next year. Fancy that anyone???

I don't no what a 10 year league table of the rest of the PL would look like but I wouldn't mind betting we're near the top. On our budget, and compared to the near certainty of relegation before Moyes arrived that is successful management.
Jeremy Benson
235   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:01:29

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Umm, ok, ignoring Portsmouth as you say; Carling Cup winners since 2000, outside the top 4:

Leicester
Blackburn
Middlesbrough
Birmingham
Spurs (at the time they weren't top 4).
Paul David
237   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:01:48

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Howard, as you point out, over a 10 year period we would be near the top of the league so isn't it resonable to think that maybe we should have won one of the 20 domestic cups on offer in that time? ? especially when a couple of the top clubs have knocked each other out in the early stages.

I think it's a weak argument to say how great Moyes is doing at keeping us towards the top of the league but then say we're not good enough to win a cup.

I don't expect trophies but the law of averages would say a manager of Moyes's "great" ability would have delivered one by now.
James Martin
239   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:11:15

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Why is it since 2000 Jeremy? Moyes started at Everton in 2002. Spurs have won one Carling Cup, yes. ONE cup in all that time and one year of Champions League qualification. How much money have they thrown at it again? Compensation on Jol, Ramos, and Redknapp, buying players like Keane and Defoe back for a second time. Darren Bent barely used, Dos Santos barely used, Bentley, Pavlyuchenko & Pienaar all wasted. They've thrown more money at it than you could ever ask for and all they've won is one Carling Cup.

That just shows how difficult it is, there's no FA Cup winners in that list, no Uefa Cup winners in that list. No manager winning more than one trophy. Even Wenger hasn't won anything in 6 years, he knows how to win trophies and has done it before yet he's come up short as well... Bad manager? No just a very difficult environment to win trophies in.

Dalglish's Carling Cup success has definitely exacerbated the issue. Who knows what will happen on Saturday? If they win, then I'm sure Moyes will take a fresh round of abuse on here for not having won one. If he loses then he'll have one lucky Carling Cup win to his name, and at the top level that's what it can boil down to.

Moyes gets Europe's best in Chelsea in the final, Liverpool get Cardiff. Kenny Miller misses a gaping chance at the end and then even after Liverpool miss two pens, Cardiff miss three without making Reina make a save. What part of that is good management? That was just unprecedented pot luck.

Portsmouth also met Cardiff in the final, if they had met Chelsea that would be them without a trophy as well. Moyes does not have this luck; the one time we made it, we're up against probably Europe's best team without our three best players. If a fully fit Everton squad comes up against Cardiff that day, then Moyes has a trophy to his name.
Ian Bennett
240   Posted 02/05/2012 at 19:47:26

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I don't quite understand the stick that Moyes gets that he hasn't won a trophy in 10 years. Surely, when he came in no-one expected him to a lift a trophy in his first couple of years given the terrible squad he inherited and lack of any financial muscle.

We are therefore looking that he hasn't won anything over a 6-odd year period. How many clubs have done so outside of the Sky 4 who have twice the budgets? I make it Portsmouth and Boro in the FA Cup and Uefa cup, with a couple of wins in the League Cup at best.

We can all say that we should have won the League Cup just to tick the trophy box, but for most of the 10 years we have been happy to be knocked out to concentrate on a Champions League spot. Suddenly now that looks unachievable given City and Spurs have the upped the anti, we suddenly want to roll back time and wish we won the League Cup or something given the gap since 1995 and Liverpool on course for 2 cups (which is some achievement considering they were supposedly title challengers).

I think we have had a better record in the cups with semis in the League Cup, FA Cup and FA Cup Final over the last 5 odd years. The team has lacked game winners, are a bunch of chokers, has been badly managed on the day ? should it be any different? In theory, yes, but don't expect it. We were the same in the 70s and were comparatively minted then.
Jeremy Benson
241   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:30:08

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The previous poster said 10 years or so, so I took 2000. I was simply highlighting that teams outside the top 4 have won more cups than people think, it was nothing to do with Moyes's tenure.

No conspiracy.
Ian Bennett
242   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:48:18

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Another way of looking at it. 134 years old, 15 trophies, one every 9 years - is Moyes that bad.
Michael Kenrick
243   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:53:41

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Ian Bennett, you win today's star prize for the most far-fetched re-writing of history in the Moyes era:

"For most of the 10 years, we have been happy to be knocked out [of the cup competitions] to concentrate on a Champions League spot."

Well, that's worked to a charm, I'd say... Honestly, some of the crap people will write to excuse Moyes's failures is simply astounding. And people wonder why they get called 'apologists'?!?!
Barry Rathbone
244   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:36:27

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Moyes has his teams fundamentally flawed, hard work trumps creativity and pace every time in his book.

Well yes...... if existing is all you're after but designed to fail against the likes of liverpool when they are at it.

Complete opposite to Big joe his side wasn't great but on any given day ie Spurs in the semi or games against Liverpool they could go up a gear.

Impossible under Moyes and the lack of cup success is simply a gauge to this.
Sam Hoare
247   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:04:04

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So Barry- Moyes' team have never played well against or beaten the big teams? Right.
Paul David
248   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:10:13

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Sam I think Moyes's record against the top teams speaks for itself.
Kiern Moran
249   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:12:38

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I am fairly sure I saw Moyes during the game against Stoke provide instructions to a substitute using an ipad.
Ian Bennett
250   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:59:15

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Michael - I think you can take the prize my friend. We have been chasing the top 4 dream in the belief that would unlock the millions, and no one during that time has cared 2 hoots about the league cup for much of the years. This was the only option with no benefactor. The league cup was a trophy with no cash and would mean nothing in transforming everton.

Are you telling me that we all have a big league cup buzz and capacity gate games over those years? Or just feeling a bit insecure that with hindsight we should have worried more about the 'mickey mouse' cup, particularly given the redshite are in 2 finals this season.

If you think I am an apologist, I would state it was strategy most fans chased in the hope without a rich owner and knackered ground this will change everton for the better. Perhaps you were just not in touch as much as you thought?
Kevin Tully
252   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:58:33

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Hodgson taking a very average Fulham side to a Europa League Final surpasses anything Moyes has achieved.

This was achieved on less money than Moyes has had for wages & transfers. Does anyone on here remember getting mullered 6-1 at home by Arsenal, on the opening day of the season ?

Maybe he will beat one of the big four away before he reaches fifty attempts - Fucking 50.

I am sorry I don't get excited with a top half finish in the league, should I be satisfied with that ? Moyes is.
Paul David
253   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:19:53

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Chasing champions league football haha.
Danny James
254   Posted 02/05/2012 at 20:57:38

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I can just imagine the scenario if Moyes were to win the league cup next year. The MOB will be moaning that Moyes will have been in charge 11 years and hasnt delivered the title using Blackburn in 95 and Leeds in 92 as an example
James Martin
255   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:15:52

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How does Moyes' record against the top teams stand up to everyone elses in the league? Very easy to say 'oh but blackburn won at Old Trafford' , counts for nothing when you're getting relegated does it? I'm sure they'd have rather drawn that game and won at home against City, Chelsea, and Tottenham and picked up 10 points rather than 3 but at least kean doesn't have the awful stigma of never winning away at a big 4 club (sorry, the old big 4, winning at spurs and city doesn't count for Moyes). Yeah i'll buy that we choke in big games in the cup but who outside of that top 6 have a better record in the same period against the big teams as we do? I don't know the answer to this but I doubt many do. Once again luck plays a part in this stat, Pienaar lobs Almunia for a deserved 2-1 at the emirates, Vuaghan gets put through and misses a sitter for 3-1, Arsenal get a last minute deflected strike that beats the goal keeper when really it could have gone anywhere. Is it Moyes' fault that Vaughan missed, or that that deflection goes in instead of over the bar? No. is it Moyes fault that last year at Anfield (an example of us not just surrendering to Liverpool in every derby game) Howard decides to come for a ball he didn't need to and the ref gives a dodgy pen? No. Is it Moyes's fault that Atkinson red carded Rodwell for nothing and Distin (twice) and Baines had a cock up? No. He can be blamed for many things but for some things individual mistakes, the rub of the green, and bad refereeing decisions, have cost us.
Sam Hoare
256   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:23:10

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Actually having champions league football Paul- lest you forget.

Kevin- Hodgson had a great season that season. Then he went to Liverpool and didn't do so good. Moyes has consistently had us higher up the league table than the wages table. Not many other managers have done that...
Kevin Tully
257   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:25:21

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James#255,

We are talking ten years - TEN YEARS - and not winning at four away grounds, of trying to beat teams that are in the same league as us.

Unlucky fucker eh ?
Ian Bennett
260   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:35:39

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Kevin its a terrible record.

I would be interested to know how many defeats the sky 4 had outside of playing each over 10 years at home. I bet it's not a lot.

19 games less 3 times 10 times 4 = 640, I bet the number is probably under 20.
James Martin
261   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:39:13

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Again Kevin, other fans don't care about this ridiculous 'away' stat. Fans care about points. How many points, regardless of them being home or away have Everton under Moyes accrued in comparison to other teams outside of the top 6 who have been in the league the same period? Why do people get hung up on this one stat, Moyes could win at Anfield next season and lose every other game home and away to the rest of the top 6. I'd rather, however, he beat most of them at home and drew with a few away and got us more points. Why don't we just swap Moyes for Kean, an away win at Old trafford in his first season, and better yet he knows how to treat class trikers like Yakubu properly and doesn't place any emphasis on defence, sounds like ToffeeWebs ideal manager.
Sam Hoare
262   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:47:24

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Well said James.

The league is about how many points you end up with at the end of the season not whether you manage to get one or two good results against the big teams...if anything that is small fry mentality!
Ian Bennett
263   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:51:17

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Agreed Sam, despite how depressing it has been.

It's not as if spurs, fulham, villa, Leeds have been happy hunting grounds either over the past 40 years. Moyes has won here, but prior to that we are talking decades and decades for some of them.
Kevin Tully
264   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:47:39

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It's not about that statistic James, that is only an example of the manager's mindset. Moyes treats Everton like we are a newly promoted club, he has got plenty of 50 - 70K a week players in his squad - just like those other teams. He has got plenty of Internationals in his squad - just like those other teams. We are one of only 7 teams ever-present in the P.L. era.

It seem the dumbing down of any expectations or ambition is working a treat on most supporters.
I am not falling for the " top ten finish is a good result " like some on here.

I must take my hat off to Moyes & Bill - two brilliant con merchants, and you are all falling for their bullshit.
Dan Brierley
265   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:32:03

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And what does winning at these 4 grounds actually give you? Last time I checked, you still only get 3 points for a win, no matter where it is. If the league rules get changed to points being allocated as a percentage of grounds won at, I'll start worrying about it. Until then, I couldn't give a flying fuck. The teams we have not won against, have spent over a combined BILLION pounds on their teams over 10 years. So if anything, I would expect the gulf to be wider than it is today.

And I love the fact that someone has brought up Fulham's achievements in this argument. Would this be the same Fulham than have not won at Goodison not just in the last ten years, but since the inception of Association Football itself (124 years and counting)?
Ian Bennett
267   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:01:00

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7th and a cup run was a pipe dream considering how bad the squad was in August.

You can have as many internationals as you like, but it's how good they are in comparison to their internationals. How many of our players would go into a top 4 side. Baines, felli, and jelly tops.
Kevin Tully
268   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:04:42

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Didn't Spurs just buy Saha & Pienaar ? Didn't Arsenal want Jagielka last season ? Howard anyone ? Distin ? Heitinga - World Cup Finalist.

There's 10 Ian.
John Ford
269   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:03:00

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Agree with James Martin. Cherry Picking stats...such as a few players wages to suggest somehow we are on par with high spending teams is just daft. We are paupers relative to theses teams yet we do well , consistently wel, in the league.

Why is it reasonable to pick just games we havn't done well in as evidence that Moyes is poor?.......and yet actually ignore all the games we win ?.... which is considerably more than most teams. How is this any kind of fair assessment?

Indeed are we saying Blackburn are a top team because they won at Old Trafford?.....cherry picking is as nonsensical as that.
Ian Bennett
270   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:11:32

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Pienaar failed. Saha was a sticking plaster as Harry wanted to clear the decks to make bigger signings.

Howard ish. Jags and Heitinga maybe but I would expect all to sign younger, faster better players. Heitinga is more likely to go to an Italian side than another premiership side I reckon.
Kevin Tully
272   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:17:39

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So 50k a week players don't matter, our internationals are no good, our £15m midfielder is mid-table, we even had a £9m winger on the bench for over two years - we cannot even buy a win in ten years at some grounds !

It has all become clear guys - a top ten finish is all we should expect, thanks for explaining why we should not expect to win anything - EVER.
Denis Richardson
273   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:00:35

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In relation to the no trohies issue, I thiink people seem to forget how shcoking our record actually is. Focusing on the FA Cup (personally am not too bothered by the LC) and ignoring the 2001-2002 season as Moyes only just came in. Moyes has been in charge of Everton for 10 FA cup runs. In that time we have:

- been knocked out in the 3rd round 3 times (to the mighty Shrewsbury Town, Blackburn (1-4 at home!) and Oldham (0-1 at home!))

- been kncked out in the 4th round 3 times (Fulham, Chelsea, Birmingham (at home 0-1))

- been kncked out in the 5th round twice (Man U and Reading (at home!))

Remaining 2 were the Chelsea final and some other game that happened this year.

All in all a pretty poor record. For all the talk of only the top teams win the trophy, we have been knocked out of it by 'lesser' teams quite a few times, and many of them at home.

Anyone care to offer a reason?

Peraonally I think its the problem we have when we're the favourties.
Joe Bibb
274   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:29:18

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We didn't qualify for the Champions League ? we lost the qualifier.

Why do Moyes's supporters keep making up Myths?
Ian Bennett
275   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:27:30

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Kevin we have and will finish the best of the rest. Swap Newcastle for Liverpool and any joe could have picked those league placings.

50k players are ten a penny - Barton, wright Philips, crouch, Darren bent, Zamora do you want me to carry on? I havent said our internationals are no good. They are just in general not as good as elsewhere.

You have picked 10 players I could name you 60 from the top 4 who would get into our team, what's it prove? It proves we are quite a good team that finish out the top but away from trouble. Your billy point and what? He was a Russian dud - most eastern Europeans are a gamble and he didn't come off.
Peter Mills
276   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:11:35

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7th-10th and a cup run is acceptable in a passive kind of way. But when we see Mr Dalglish,for all his league failings, winning one cup and getting to the final of another, it isn't. We should be in the final on Saturday.

Yes, Dalglish has spent large amounts of money on players who are no better than ours. But when he goes into a big game with players who are evenly matched, he can get a win. Because he has been winning things since he started with Celtic in the 70s. He understands about winning big games and trophies. I think David Moyes does not. And for me, the crucial part of football is to win a trophy, not to finish 2nd, 3rd, 7th or 10th.

It breaks my heart to have typed the above, but I fear it is true.
Ian Bennett
277   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:37:22

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Denis I think you have something on the pressure thing. I think it's the same at the start of every season in previous seasons (not this one I just think the squad was crap) when we have finished well before hand. It links in that we are ate a team of chokers when it matters
Kevin Tully
278   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:37:34

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The questions are Ian, where should we be aiming for next season ? Should Moyes be expected to win a trophy if he has say, 12 years at the club ? With our first team, will we be watching good, flowing football next season ?

My guess is - top ten, No & No.

Not good enough IMO.
Ian Bennett
280   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:48:33

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Kevin I fear you are right. Although changing the manager will change little unless we find an absolute genius.

Tight defences win you league points, goals win you trophies. We need pienaar, a striker, and a right midfielder. Given no one will buy us I would cash in on baines, Cahill and Coleman for 30m and start again on those positions a new left back. I hate to say that as I love Leighton at our club.
Jamie Barlow
282   Posted 02/05/2012 at 22:55:21

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I don't think Moyes should be expected to win a trophy in the next 2 years. Obviously, it would be great but I don't expect it. I expect teams who have spent far more than we have to win them.

As of whether we play good, flowing football and where we should finish next season, I think that all depends on the actions of the real problem at our club. Whether our board can find enough money to strengthen our team or even keep it as it is.(with Pienaar)
Kevin Tully
287   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:11:29

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"Here's £3m a season Dave, don't worry about winning anything, keep us in the League, even if that means playing 4-6-0 and boring the bollocks off those soft bastards who pay your wages."

No wonder he won't leave, what a job!
Richard Harris
288   Posted 02/05/2012 at 21:45:56

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So by James Martin's reasoning if Moyes can't be blamed for individual mistakes, bad luck etc then he can't take the credit for winning (or drawing) with a lucky goal, bad misses or mistakes by the opposition or good goals by our players. If he can take credit for higher league positions then he can also take blame for the failures.

And Ian Bennett - did we really not bother with the League Cup so that we could concentrate on Champions League qualification? If so, then for 10 years this 'stRategy' hasn't really worked. Wasn't Jose Mourinho's first success in England winning the League Cup? That didn't stop him winning the Premier League in the same season. Yes, I know that Chelsea had funds that we couldn't match but every sucessful manager has to start with their first trophy.
Jamie Barlow
291   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:20:46

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"Here's £3 million Dave, go out and buy whoever you want.
Oh by the way, pick one of our top players to sell cos we need to sort out the banks.
One other thing, I expect to finish in the champions league places or win the FA Cup this season."

Easy peasy.
Kenn Crawford
292   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:22:45

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Has the accumulation of all these stats over the years explained why we start the season so badly? And if Moyes believes the teams that run and work harder than the other team usually wins the game, how come we lose to the likes of Bolton, QPR & Stoke at home? is it not Moyes's mantra to run and chase and utilise hard working players to get results?

Sorry, it just does not work for me. Give me talented and pacy players any day. We are Everton and as such we should play like Everton!!!!!
Sean McKenna
295   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:18:56

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I'm no fan of Moyes by a long way; however, a certain Mr Wenger has won zero in 7 years despite spending fortunes on the best young talent around!! I think Moyes deserves serious money to try and challenge; if he fails, fair enough... but until then we just have to accept that Moyes will be around for another few years.
Howard Don
299   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:44:09

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Michael (243) Honestly, some of the crap people will write to blame Moyes's for the virtual impossibility of Everton winning a major trophy, given funding available, is simply astounding. Oh and putting !?!?! or similar after statements doesn't add any credence to the arrant nonesense whatsoever.
Paul David
300   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:39:50

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Jamie we all know we're in the shit with the banks but can you tell me how many players we've had to sell to please the banks?

Lescott and Arteta left because they no longer wanted to be here.I'm aware the banks took most of the Arteta money but no one has been sold yet with the sole purpose of repaying the bank.(only a matter of time though)
Paul David
302   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:52:53

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Howard

Lets forget about winning a cup,whats Moyes's excuse for not entertaining us for years.

If winning something is out of our reach then why not giving us something that doesnt cost money,good football.
Jamie Barlow
305   Posted 02/05/2012 at 23:56:24

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What happened to the money from the Beckford, Yakubu, Bily, Vaughn and Pienaar transfers? The money we got for the Yobo and Yakubu loans? The money we saved by loaning out different players 13 times in the last 2 years?

And as you say, it's only a matter of time we do it again.
Paul David
307   Posted 03/05/2012 at 00:16:38

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Jamie, I am not saying the banks didn't take some of the money, just that Moyes got rid of players he didn't want. Which of those players were top players?
Jamie Barlow
310   Posted 03/05/2012 at 00:32:44

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It doesn't matter whether they are top players. That's not my point.
You seem to think we should expect to win a cup in the next 2 years while Moyes is working on a very tight budget and having to sell to buy.

Do you honestly think that were Moyes given £20 million to keep Pienaar, buy a full back, a right winger and, or another striker, without having to sell first, we wouldn't play better football and have a better chance of winning something?

Surely £20m is worth a punt from somebody with a bit of money. I don't think we're that far off being a pretty good team.
Paul David
312   Posted 03/05/2012 at 00:50:43

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Jamie

I dont expect trophies,I think considering we've been near the top for most of the last 10 years its not unreasonable to wonder why we havent.

My main problem with Moyes (before the last 2 derbies) was his negative attitude,if he believes playing that way is the best way to beat the top teams then fine,whatever way we play against them chances are we wont win but there no excuse for it at home against shite teams.



Even without spending money and before the new signings arrived we still had far better players than QPR,Villa,Stoke,Norwich and Bolton yet we failed to beat any of them at home and produced shite football.
James Flynn
320   Posted 03/05/2012 at 01:35:41

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Paul - It sucked we didn't do better in the first half of the season. You certainly list results we all hated.

But mid-season saw ownership frightened of a relegation possibilty and supporter uproar. Low and behold, LD and Peanuts in on loan and Gibson and Jela purchased.

Kenright and them can do right by the team. Jamie's quote of 20 mil will be all it takes. Hell, we could bring in Landon for half that and have money left for a few other signings.
James Flynn
321   Posted 03/05/2012 at 01:54:14

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Paul (300) - "Lescott and Arteta left because they no longer wanted to be here".

C'mon brother. Lescott was offered his wages doubled, which EFC couldn't afford. They same pressure on Everton was on the other fellows to cut a deal.

Arsenal came in for Arteta and a deal was cut. They went up the Table by shoring up their defense, not adding Mikel.
Peter Barry
326   Posted 03/05/2012 at 03:19:27

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So answer me this Sean McKenna # 295 - Whose football has been more entertaining and exciting in those 7 years Arsenals or Evertons. Even those committed Moyesophiles would have to say Arsenal .
Gavin Ramejkis
338   Posted 03/05/2012 at 07:23:05

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I read a similar argument over a year ago claiming Arsenal were the first team to do this and it was down to Wenger it coming to these shores.
Gavin Ramejkis
339   Posted 03/05/2012 at 07:37:08

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Just trawled through the responses and some right whoppers in there but to respond to just a few

Charlie your Beeb stat qualified for Champions League - erm we didn't we got a Champions League qualifier game which we lost

A new manager will NOT guarantee anything besides a change - no nailed on relegation and no nailed on winning the league or a cup its just nonsense to spout the same tired old scaremongering twaddle about Moyes being the only person in the universe who could keep us in the league.

What statistic exactly does Moyes rely on which means we are shite up to just after christmas more often than not then suddebly start playing?

Repeating the same mistakes ad nauseum isn't a sign of genius its a fatal flaw.
Eugene Ruane
342   Posted 03/05/2012 at 08:52:49

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To the much asked (TW) question "Well who would you replace him with?" I'm now able to give an answer.

Delio Rossi.

My kind of manager (and I believe he's available as of last night).

"Hey Beckford, you have a problem with my substitutions?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYR9xW5VwM&feature=related
James Martin
345   Posted 03/05/2012 at 09:35:58

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Richard over the course of a season luck evens itself out so that you end up where you deserve to end up. If we do well or badly in the league that is the responsibility of Moyes. I'm not trying to excuse Moyes's cup record, its bad no one is denying that. I'm saying that the 'he hasn't won a trophy or won away at the top 4' argument doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager as both of these stats could have been avoided by a bit of good luck. If he'd beaten Arsenal away or had Cardiff in the final and won then the arguments would be 'his away record against the top 4 is poor' (Like every other maanger's in the league) and 'his trophy record is poor' (like every other manager outside the top 4 in the league). Just because luck didn't go his way and these stats exist doesn't mean that they can be used as definitive proof that Moyes is a ridiculous incompetent premeir league manager not suited for Everton just because he doesn't have an away win at certain grounds or hasn't won a trophy.
Sam Hoare
349   Posted 03/05/2012 at 09:41:51

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Blaming Moyes entirely for shite pre christmas form is to totally ignore the problems that are caused every summer by our financial weakness and not being able to bring in new players till January...

It's no coincidence that we have improved since Gibson and Jelavic and Pienaar arrived. If Moyes had been given money to buy those players last summer then....
Eugene Ruane
352   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:01:43

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Sam (349) If he'd been given the money......what?

If my aunt etc.

How about IF he'd never bothered with 'Bily the bench' in the first place, we could have spent the money on...

Or IF he'd sold Saha when he had the chance, we could have...

For every if there's another if

Nobody blames Moyes 'ENTIRELY' as everyone (or 95%) seem to accept we have a staggeringly useless twat 'running' the club.

However, that useless twat does not decide whether we go at teams or sit back.

Nor does he decide whether we keep it on the deck or hoof it up the park.

Or make 6 changes (from a winning side) when it comes to playing The Victims at their shitty gaff.

Etc.
Sam Hoare
353   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:37:31

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Eugene, surely you have noticed that since buying gibson and jelavic and pienaar that we have been more attacking and have been keeping it on the deck more.

Moyes can only play with the resources available and for the last few years till Januray those resources have been pretty stale.

Not absolving Moyes of blame or excusing his over defensiveness but just saying its no coincidence that we have played better since he has actually been allowed to spend some money for the first time in 2 years.
Mark Riding
354   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:48:03

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Sam #353.
We havent bought Pienaar.
And to continue Eugenes 'what if' theme just for a second longer..

What if Rangers were not in total shit street and did not have to get the £6m in for Jelavic asap or they couldnt finish the season ?
Saha would be the only recognised striker, probablly be injured again by now, no-one up front and pressure would have been on Moyes and Kenwright weeks ago...

What if's.. indeed.
Charlie Dixon
355   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:49:25

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On a seperate note as its driving me mad. Who were our leading goalscorers and with how manygoals in the 01/02 & 03/04 seasons.

Nice one
Eugene Ruane
356   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:41:58

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Sam (353), you say - "its no coincidence that we have played better since he has actually been allowed to spend some money for the first time in 2 years".

Er...he has been with is for TEN years.

He has not had no money to spend in THAT time and for long periods of THAT time, the standard of football has been COMPLETELY devoid of entertainment, intelligence, or skill.

I have enjoyed the football we have been playing since the second half of the Swansea game (semi aside)

It's been on the deck, pass and move and some of it at times has been fantastic.

Yes Jelavic makes a difference to our results as he appears to be a natural finisher, but don't try to tell me that once signed Moyes blew out a sigh of relief and thought..

"Pheeeew - at LAST! The final piece of the jIg-saw. NOW we can play the football I've always WANTED to play".
Tony J Williams
357   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:26:45

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There's only one Delio Rossi, One Delio Rossi

Bring him on you muddafeckers!!!!
Paul David
358   Posted 03/05/2012 at 10:47:00

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James 321

What difference does it make what the reasons these players had for leaving,the fact is neither wanted to be Everton players no more and were not sold by the banks.There is no doubt this will happen sooner or later but it has not happened yet.

Sam 349 & 353

No one is saying we're not a better team now than we were at the start of the season but you seem to think that just because we didnt buy anyone in the summer that automatically makes us one of the worst teams in the league.

Before the new signings we were still better than most in the league and should rightly be expected to beat QPR,Stoke,Bolton at home by playing attacking football.
Gavin Ramejkis
362   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:32:11

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Sam, buying Jelvic and Gibson this January and the loan of Pienaar doesn't change previous seasons where we were shite up to christmas do they?
Tony J Williams
364   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:12:53

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Paul we had 22 shot at goal against QPR, I would suggest that is a stat that would seem we attacked fairly well, just couldn't score
Paul David
365   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:50:58

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Tony 364

If i'm honest I cant remember the QPR game that much now but what I do remember is being bored off my arse for nearly every league game at Goodison this season.
Paul David
366   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:53:31

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And last season.
Paul David
367   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:54:49

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And the season before.
Jim Knightley
368   Posted 03/05/2012 at 11:46:34

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lol Kevin, you talk some shit. Are you aware of our relative wage situation? and more importantly..please also name the 'plenty' of players on 50-70k a week? plenty must be alot...at least 10 from the sounds of things...who are they?


Get something straight; many of us do not have high expectations, because we are a midtable team if that. Why are we a mid table team? Because of the money we spend (lower prem/high champ budget) and the wages we spend (will be around 12th in this league in the wage table). Our history isn't of a mid-table team, although a table run on history would look alot different. So please give me a reason Kevin, apart from your innane comment about wages, why we should be doing so much better than seventh?

And please would some of you stop working under the misconception that, if we got the start of the season right, we would qualify for the champions league. Every team suffers from form, whether it be at the start of the season or the end. Take Spurs' first half of the season form, and theyd be 2/3rd. Take Arsenal's second half of the season, and they'd be fighting for the title. Take Liverpool's second half of the season form, and they'd be fighting against relegation. The only way to improve our start of the season form, is to get through without a transfer story, and spend spend spend. Funny that our second half of the season form followed the morale boasting acquisition of 4 top quality players...couldn't be a link there could there be...?
Tony J Williams
369   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:00:12

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Paul, just because you were bored and can't remember it, you can't rewrite history or stats.
Paul David
371   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:02:18

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Tony

Thats a fair point,I dont know where you looked up that stat but i'm sure if you look at other games at Goodison this season you will see games were we've failed to have a single shot on target.

If were not in a position to challenge for honours for what ever reason I think the least Moyes should try to do is entertain us,on the whole I dont think there is many people who would say he's done that these last few years.
Tony J Williams
375   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:17:22

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Winning and entertainment probably go hand in hand Paul.

Look at the Fulham game, you had Hibbert and Neville doing flicks and backheels becuae we pissed all over them.

Usually we are too scared to make a mistake and therefore have a nervy feel about us which is certainly not condusive to exansive free flowing footy.

I probably haven't been thoroughly entertained at a football match since we beat Newcastle 2-0 to reach the Champions League Qualifiers (The 3-0 Derby aside...oh and the 6th round beating of the Shite...oh and the 7-1 Sunderland game etc)
Sam Hoare
376   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:18:40

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Eugene, you have a short memory. We have played some decent football at times under Moyes, even being branded as Arsenal lite. The fact is that over the last few years Moyes has often had to sell key creative players Rooney, Gravesen, Arteta, Pienaar and often not been given those funds to re-invest.

As for Swansea, yeah they play nice football but they are five places below us and have scored less goals than us this season. I think Brendan Rogers might become a world class manager but his achievments so far are impressive but not miraculous.
Paul David
378   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:23:16

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Tony

I agree with you to a certain point.Confidence through winning brings about better football but theres no reason not to try and play even if things are not going well,and I believe being too scared to play in case a mistake is made comes from Moyes.

For every entertaining game you bring up there will be about half a dozen were we played boring defensive football.

John Ford
379   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:25:02

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Sam, the first half at Stoke was a decent example of what we do well - pressing when not in posession and good neat passing to get the ball into the last quarter. The problem was we couldnt get our attacking players into the box with the ball. Something Barca also failed to do against a weakened Chelseas team...so the very best sometimes fail at this.

Your point is valid. We need the right players to be able to play this game, and those bought in January enabled us to do this....but our limited squad means if a couple of players are missing we then struggle to reproduce the passing game....and hence the shitty first half of the season.
Kevin Sparke
381   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:20:40

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Tony J, have you not realised, Paul only sees stuff with his bad eye and remembers only pain not pleasure.

Hence, we have no flair players, only go out to defend and never entertain...

Facts are not needed, they are surplus to requirements, memory is selective, Paul already 'knows' we're a dour, defensive and not entertaining team - all evidence to the contrary is irrelevant, it does not compute, it is outside of his mindset.

If you want a picture of Paul's mindset, imagine Marvin the manic depressive robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, crossed with the unlucky triplet of Jordan who ends up sucking the bottle

Now, people like you and I can appreciate when we've been poor, when we've been defensive and when we've been ordinary - and we'll say so and we'll criticise and we'll formulate theories wondering why this is happening; as will Paul However, people like our friend Paul can never see it when it occasionally gets good, it is beyond their realm of comprehension, outside of the parameters of their mindset.

They are more to be pitied than argued with - whatever you say they'll twist anyway to fit their field of vision blurred by tears.
Paul David
383   Posted 03/05/2012 at 12:53:24

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Kevin

The exact opposite could be said of you for the same reasons.
Paul David
387   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:06:36

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Kevin you are right.A few months a go I was just bored of how Moyes approached games but put up with it because you cant really argue with the teams final league positions even if I didnt like his methods.

That was untill he sacrificed the Anfield derby against the wishes of the majority (I imagine) of fans,in my eyes he spat in the faces of every Evertionian that day.Then to follow it up with a gutless performance against a Liverpool team that was there for the taking in the semi means there is no way back for Moyes with me.

So I make no excuses for looking to get on his back at every opportunity and all the good work he has done in the past means fuck all to me now.I will continue to be over bias over every opinion I have of Moyes untill he is out of our club.
Kevin Tully
389   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:10:08

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Jim #368,

Don,t lecture me on what my expectations I should have for the club. It is wankers like you who will be telling me that reaching 40 points is a miracle. YOU have fell for the con that being in the League is a great achievement.

When I am freezing my nuts off next season ( do you go by the way ? ) watching boring, insipid shite, I have no problem expecting to see decent football, served up by a tactically astute manager, who earns £3m a season.

As far as 50k a week players are concerned, I don't have access to their contracts, but what do you think Baines, Neville, Fellaini, Heitinga, Jelavic, Pienaar, Distin etc earn ?

No expectations = mid-table or worse. The board & manager love fools like you supporting them, they can get away with anything.
Sam Hoare
390   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:40:06

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Kevin our wage bill puts us around 13th in the premiership.

Of course we can all hope for better but do you think we are realistically entitled to expect champions league/trophies?

I agree Moyes does not always play good football, but considering our resources i think he plays pretty effective football.
Tony J Williams
395   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:28:53

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"The board & manager love fools like you supporting them, they can get away with anything." - And what the fuck are you doing then? Apart from bitching and moaning on a footbal forum, how you are making it possible for us to finish further up the league...answer fuck all.

One of my worst hates on here is a poster trying to suggest that another refusal to slag someone/something off is in someway making the problem worse.

Apart from our money when we buy tickets, which goes towards the club, we have absolutely no influence on how games play out and if we buy new players or sell ones we would rather not.
Kevin Tully
398   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:51:01

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Listening to some posters, we may as well throw in the towel now, before next season's fixtures are even published.

I would hate to be on the same team as some on here ? give up before a ball is kicked. "We've got no chance here, they have spent £35m on Andy Carroll."

Well fuck that, money does not mean you can't go on to the pitch and give them a pasting! All the professional athletes & International players in our side choke exactly because they believe what you have just posted, Sam.

Beaten before they leave the dressing room. A great manager can make them believe they can win. Not "nick a draw".
Kevin Tully
400   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:01:53

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"And what the fuck are you doing then? Apart from bitching and moaning on a footbal forum"

Are you 12?
Jim Knightley
406   Posted 03/05/2012 at 13:49:05

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Kevin, can't you read? Why I am lecturing you on the expectations YOU should have?

My comment: Get something straight; many of us do not have high expectations, because we are a midtable team, if that.

I fail to understand, not your expectations (the common football fan expects more than is likely, for realism in itself would breed boredom and pessimism for most clubs), but that you can't realise why some of us have lower expectations? That you, with your bullshit theories, think we are massively underachieving? Please tell me, Kevin, based on fact instead of creation, why we should do so much better?

My expectations are based on wages and money spent; that which determines football. If we finished 10th, I would not be happy, or entirely miserable. For seventh and a semi, I think we have done very well. I wish we would have beaten Liverpool, I wish we could improve our mindset against them, but I do not lack a sense of perspective based on our means.

Re. wages... more bullshit. Your 'plenty' comment, has now turned into 7 players, one of whom is on loan, and whose loan wages we have no knowledge of, so 6 players, whose wages are based on supposition.

For info purposes, I believe/know Cahill, Heitinga and Fellaini are on the £50k-70k wages you claim 'plenty' are on. Jelavic will not be (he was on £15k a week at Rangers). Whilst defenders are on typically much less, £50k for Baines would not suprise me, but I do not think Neville or Distin are on that. Given the above, I do not see how that justifies that we should be doing a lot better? Our squad is small, our complete wages will be around the 12th highest in this division for the season.

You are the type of 'fool' (to use your word) who needs some reality. The type of fan who would have been moaning at Harry once Spurs started playing badly, or at Wenger when Arsenal did.

We are a team with no money, a little wage capacity. We are constantly outspent by those we count as our rivals. With little money, Moyes has taken a relegation squad (and it was 10 years ago, and when we fell 1-0 down at Crystal Palace, after our defeat against Arsenal, I thought we were going down) and turned us into a very good team. If he had more money, I would advocate a change. But it is not Moyes that it is to blame; it is a board which will not even allow us enough money to compete with the Stokes of the league, let alone the Spurs or Liverpools.

I do go to the games thanks, and it costs me a lot in time and travel. I get frustrated by our poor form, and take pleasure from our good, like the rest of us. But over the course of the season, I believe we have done well, and am still proud to support this club. I am not proud of fans, who call others 'wankers' or 'fools' for having a different perception, who base arguments on imaginary statistics and whose arguments lack any foundation.

One last thing, re.

Maybe he will beat one of the big four away before he reaches fifty attempts.

Haven't we beaten City and Spurs away? Or do they not count as a top four team because they don't suit the argument?
Tony J Williams
412   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:27:50

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No Kevin I am considerably older than 12 but I don't think that you or I bitching on a football forum amounts to anything other than bitching on a football forum....apparantly you do.

You seem to believe that, because some posters won't slag someone/something off, that they are part of the problem... and you bitching and moaning is somehow the solution as to how we should be a better team than what we are. It doesn't.
Kevin Tully
413   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:24:33

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Jim, you are the only one who started their post with a personal insult (you can have plenty of that BTW) so please don't be outraged that you got some back.

I think the whole ethos & outlook at the club is small-time. I think we should always be aiming higher ? every single day.

You seem content; your prerogative.

YOU & Williams shout people down who want BETTER for the club; fine.

I think we can play more expansive football, and give evidence why Moyes is negative, you say that's all we can expect. I think you & many others are just happy to be in the Premier League

"We are a team with no money, a little wage capacity. We are constantly outspent by those we count as our rivals."

Above is evidence of that. On top of that you GUESS what wage each player is on, then base your argument on that. FACTS only please, like 44 attempts to win away at certain grounds.
Paul David
414   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:30:55

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Jim K

Where do you go to find out our wages compared to other teams? I've tried finding out on the net but the best I can find is out of date.
Ray Jacques
415   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:05:28

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Having read most of the posts, cannot believe the amount of rubbish that is written.

Moyes is an excellent Premier League manager over a season (where luck will generally even out over 38 games) and our position of top 10 for the majority of seasons shows this.

Additionally, every pundit whether on TV, radio or the written press, plus other managers in the Premier League whenever interviewed all express the opinion that he is a top manager and highly respected.

Do the posters on here who think he's incompetent disagree with the majority of experts or are they so paranoid to believe that Moyes/BK have influenced the opinions of all in the media??? BK certainly couldn't have bribed them with cash to say such things!!

The problem that Moyes appears to have is that he struggles to manage when expectations are high. Hence the poor start to each season and our poor cup record.

The recent semi was nothing short of a catastrophe for our club and we all know that was our chance to beat Liverpool in a major game, especially at 1-0 up when we should have gone for the 2nd goal. IMO that result was the fault of the manager as we didn't press home our advantage. In a one-off game such as a semi, money spent by teams/wages etc means nothing as it's what happens on the day.

However, for a club in our current situation (no investment etc etc yawn yawn), Moyes is an ideal manager.

It is the ownership that needs sorting ? not the management of the team. Unless the man is given the backing, support and resource then it's hard to judge how successful he could be in terms of trophies.

If we finish 17th next season, yet win the Carling Cup, is he then a successful manager???

Let's go and get Alex McLeish in the summer!!!!!

Paul David
417   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:37:57

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Ray

Other managers, media and pundits do sing Moyes's praises.

I have also seen nearly every manager come out and say Steve Kean is doing a fantastic job.

There must be proper shit managers out there but you wouldnt know it because no one ever says it.
John Ford
418   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:08:40

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Kevin, you say:

'Well fuck that, money does not mean you can't go on to the pitch and give them a pasting - all the professional athletes & International players in our side choke exactly because they believe what you have just posted Sam.'

The evidence points to exactly the opposite Kevin. If you spends wads of cash you will win things... you do that by pasting/beating the oppo. Show me a good example in the Premier League where a club which doesn't have big money, say over the past five years, has regularly beaten the opposition. It just doesn't happen.

That doesn't mean we settle for shite like the SF, and in individual games Moyes needs to look at himself. But surely we need some perspective. We're not in the big league but we aspire to it and Moyes has been as close as anyone to getting a team without spending power close to the teams with.
Paul David
420   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:45:52

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John

Money usually does talk in football. I think what Kevin T is trying to say is that there is no reason a less expensive team can't believe that they can win on the day and that Moyes doesn't seem to give the players that confidence.
Jim Knightley
421   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:38:05

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Kevin... yet again you fail. I don't base my arguments on supposition... you actually asked me, "What do you think Baines, Neville, Fellaini, Heitinga, Jelavic, Pienaar, Distin etc earn?"

I 'GUESSED' how much they were on, because you asked me to. How stupid are you? Seriously? Do you remember doing so? My whole argument is predicated on what we have access to, overall wages and money spent. I never based my argument on what each were on individually; you did, and then asked me to venture a guess, which you then attack me for doing so... you are beyond stupid. (I've increased the personal attacks, as you seem to like them, but don't get me wrong, it is not pure imitation, I do believe you a fool.)

Now please... again... tell me why you think we should be doing so much better? Try developing an argument, not reliant on supposition, idealism, but with a basis in reality.

Mine is this; we regularly finish above where we should based on wages spent. Our transfer budget is of a newly promoted side or a top Championship club. Because of that, I believe our performance under Moyes to be a success.

Yours thus far has amounted to guessing about how much the players earn, disregarding spending and the entire wage bIll... and I can't really find anything else in there. Do you not see the amount of people attacking you? Do you think we are all wrong? Some of us on here have reasoned arguments. I've seen many good anti-Moyes arguments, and many bad pro-Moyes, and vice-versa. Your argument is among the worst I've come across.
Kevin Tully
423   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:43:46

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To make my position a little clearer, I have not said Moyes is a shit / bad manger, he is however a bottler. He is a percentage manager who will not take the club to the next level, even if we get into Europe. The football is mostly defensive and "nick one".

Going on results to resources, he achieves there, no doubt.

It's how we get there though, it's painful. With our squad full of internationals on very good wages, why can't we expect a little more?

I won't even go into his big-game mentality. Some refuse to see the whole picture, and just point to seventh place ? I have trouble forgetting two games on the bounce without a shot on target.
Jamie Barlow
424   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:47:59

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Paul, there is a thread on the Mailbag called Players Wages. Andrew Fair posted a link @093 for a table of average wages and apparently it is up to date.
Kevin Tully
426   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:51:22

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"I've increased the personal attacks, as you seem to like them, but don't get me wrong, it is not pure imitation, I do believe you a fool."

And I believe you have to resort this Jim ...... well done.

What's for dinner in the old people's home tonight?
Paul David
427   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:55:44

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Thanks Jamie but I think thats not reliable as Portsmouth are above us in the table.
Jim Knightley
428   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:58:22

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So Kevin, it's an argument about style after all....so many posts later, and finally it comes out. I agree actually, we do not play with a nice style for most of the season. I think we improved in that respect recently because of the addition of talented footballers (who we're not able to afford generally because of higher wages/fees). But, as you can see, I am for substance over style, when money is missing; when teams have it, I like to see them entertain. Re "a squad full of internationals," there is not a team in this league which does not have a squad full of internationals.

Re "two games without a shot on target" that was based on some data, not others. Fellaini had a shot on target which was discounted for who knows what reason by Sky. We were poor during that part of the season, without doubt, but every team in this league goes through bad patches. Proof is in the final position, not isolated games.
Steve Barr
429   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:48:48

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I think most on here have said that Moyes is a good manager and a very decent bloke.

It has also been pointed out that he's had 10 years at the club, much longer than just about every manager in the league, and the end result is mid table mediocrity and zero silverware.

Moyes tactics in the semi-final were not a one-off. His negative, unimaginative, defensive, one-up-front, "let's hope for a draw no matter who we were playing, home or away" style has been evident throughout the season.

I personally don't believe that will change, regardless of funds.

If you look around the club, the whole ambiance is shoddy and amateurish, particularly the Promotions/PR and merchandising side of the business.

The Manager should be inspirational and lead the growth and development of the club.

For me, Moyes has had a very fair chance, done well, but it is time for a change.

I used to think that stability is necessary to build and progress but am now having second thoughts. Look at the managers Chelsea and Newcastle have had over the past few years.

Clearly their owners set out goals and timescales to achieve them. If the manager fails they are out and in comes another, until they succeed.

Maybe that change will prove to be the catalyst for Everton!

I know finances will ultimately dictate top 4 status but I am sure there is a more positive, imaginative, inspirational manager out there who can at least deliver the same as Moyes with our current resources, and in a more entertaining style.
Kevin Tully
430   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:05:04

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Will you get prunes for pudding Jim ?
Paul David
431   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:05:06

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Jim 428

While I can see why you say substance over style, results are the most important thing but when the substance only gets you 7th and no European football, I'd rather be entertained and risk dropping a few places. My personal view is that playing football would give us a greater chance of doing better.
Jamie Barlow
432   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:09:06

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Paul, ignore the main post, I think that was a table from 2009.

Scroll down to post @093 and Andrew Fair has posted a link to a report that was only produced 2 days ago.

Portsmouth aren't in it but there are a few shocks. Look where Villa are.
Tony J Williams
433   Posted 03/05/2012 at 14:55:09

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"YOU & Williams shout people down who want BETTER for the club, fine." ? No, I point out when peoople make fucking ridiculous statements, usually along the lines of "It's your fault the club is doing so shit" etc.

Here's a tip....it isn't.

Kevin Tully
435   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:13:04

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Looked - can't find where I posted that Tony.

Or are you making it up ?
Paul David
436   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:20:48

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Jamie I was more surprised that Athetico Madrid were not far above us,thought they would be near the top.

No wonder Lerner has curbed spending.
Tony J Williams
439   Posted 03/05/2012 at 15:49:56

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Kevin read the post properly fella, "usually along the lines of " - Never once said I was quoting you.
Neil Kudrycz
445   Posted 03/05/2012 at 16:08:37

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Moyes has done very well in stabilising a ship that was rudderless and listing and imo has done so on a limited budget. I know he hasn't won away at the big four during his tenure but you can't judge him on them results alone. For me personally, he has done well and I would like to judge him after he has been given proper money to spend (in the summer, not January).

As for long-standing away results, didn't it take us 50-odd years to break the Elland Road hoodoo? Moyes broke that one and I'm pretty sure he will win away at the big 4. All those people who would like to see Coyle or Martinez, just look at where their teams are lying in the league. As for Swansea and Norwich, they've done ok, but both below us and, for what it's worth, I think they will both struggle next season. (Please be kind, first post!)
Kevin Tully
455   Posted 03/05/2012 at 16:46:45

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"It's your fault the club is doing so shit" etc.

Here's another tip Tony -

Don't use quotation marks when you are not quoting a previous post.

They infer you are replying to a direct quotation.

"One of my worst hates on here is a poster trying to suggest that another.... " has stated something they have not.

See how it works ?

Sam Hoare
490   Posted 03/05/2012 at 18:29:32

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Kevin as already pointed out by other posters there is a clear correlation between money and league placing.

Of course on the day any team can win but over time THE POINT IS that money will lead to success and higher places. Why are you ignoring this undeniable fact...
Steve Barr
503   Posted 03/05/2012 at 18:42:56

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Sam,

I agree, more money does equate to a higher standing in the league in the long haul.

I also believe that a top 4 slot and Champions league qualification is beyond Everton given our current financial situation.

However, I don't accept that our financial situation over say the last 10 years has been such that we couldn't have won something, compete consistently playing positive, joined up football, and won some of these key one off big games.

That failure is down to the particular style of our manager. He is actually paid top 4 wages but has delivered only stability, and mid table safety !

For some that is clearly enough. Not for me though, and not for many other posters on TW! AND RIGHTLY SO.

We should expect more and if we had a ambitious ownership with a positive vision and can do attitude we might just have achieved a little more..
Sam Hoare
509   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:14:46

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Fair enough Steve.

I would say that on balance moyes has delivered league placings above the wage/transfer resources of the team but the cost of that has been a reliance on cautious football and no trophies. As we all know there aren't that many teams outside the big spenders who have won trophies but even so we might have expected over 10 years to be in more than one final.

What i will not condone is the people who refuse to admit the good work that Moyes has done along with some of his obvious shortcomings. Many teams with similar resources to Moyes' Everton have been relegated in his ten year span and it is in inarguable fact that if he were to leave tomorrow we would be in much better shape than we were when he arrived (and no thanks to the chairman and board).
John Ford
510   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:14:51

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Neil

Welcome to TW. Indeed he may not be rattling with all the silverware but Moyes has done better than any manager in getting a team to challenge the money elite. This seems to have been missed by some.

Steve, we do challenge the top 6...consistently. Certainly more consistently than any other team. I say top six as Spurs and City are now in the big bucks.

The failure you refer to in general terms is as a direct result of being under funded. Sure there are individual games where Moyes could do things differently, but the trophy winners list is full of the same names for one particular reason.



Dan Brierley
513   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:10:48

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Steve Barr, yiou will be taken seriously, when you talk seriously. Where in the world have you got top 4 wages from?? Or are you making things up to suit your agenda? Only delivered mid table safety during his reign? Have a look at Moyes record again. His average finishing is around 6th over the last 5 years.

I can understand people having a moan about percentage football, as its definitely not easy on the eye. But making things up? Come on...
James Martin
517   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:26:51

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Why does everyone moan about Moyes' wage? No one has a problem paying Drenthe's wages yet for some reason Moyes is underserving of his. 10 years at a club (who knows what offers he has or hasn't turned down in that time) and people expect him to be on a lower wage than some of his lesser contemporaries. If you pay peanuts then you get a monkey. if we want to establish ourselves as a top club then we can't be paying the manager what relegation managers are getting. He's a manager who's qualified for Europe and consistently finished in the top 6. Therefore he deserves a top 6 type wage which he has.
James Bowman
526   Posted 03/05/2012 at 18:43:44

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Way too many people on here playing the premier league on paper. Why do you bother going to the games... you already know who SHOULD win.

I'm sure Manure fans EXPECTED to beat Everton and win the title. Its football, the story isn't already written. There are so many uncontrollable variables in a game of football, how can one man be expected to right every instance stood on the side of the pitch? Our position is good, we have a great respect in the game (outside the majority of the shite loving media) and only investment AND forward thinking will move us on. So looking at as much information as possible will only aid that.

Moyes for me has shown constant improvement, so too have our players. Hibbo had 2 assists against Manure, I liked that alot!... still no riot yet though. I read tonight on another site that Modric only has 4 assists this season, so half the player, plus english bonus makes hibbo worth about 27mil?...Sats are great! Its how you read them that counts.

As I said above, its Moyes until he's had a fair crack at the whip in terms of cash. He's earnt it in all honesty. I still ponder whether Moyes has actually built himself a little warchest that he keeps under wraps.

As shrewd as he is, would he really spend all the cash he's given or recovered?... I'm not so sure. It wasn't too long back that all we heard was we need 15mil plus for a striker, we got one for 6 at a time when theoretically for a club in our position, we should have nothing. Did that come out of the piggy bank Mr Moyes?
Steve Barr
529   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:39:49

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Dan,

Apologies didn't think I needed to spell it out that precisely.

My belief, and I think many others agree, there are 3 leagues within the Prem. Top tier, 1-6, middle tier, 7- to say 12th and then the bottom tier.

I got Moyes salary from the Premier league's 2011 report so apologies again if they gave me the incorrect info. FYI as follows:
Name Club Annual Salary
Arsene Wenger Arsenal £6 million
Alex McLeish Birmingham £2 million
Carlo Ancelotti Chelsea £6 million
David Moyes Everton £3 million
Roberto Mancini Manchester City £3 million
Alex Ferguson Manchester United £3 million
Alan Pardew Newcastle £500k
Avram Grant West Ham £1.3 million
Fabio Capello Engand £6 million
Giovanni Trapattoni Republic Of Ireland £1.5 million.

In any business if you get paid the big bucks you are measured very closely and are expected to deliver. No excuses accepted usually.

I'm not actually complaining about his wages. Couldn't care less, but I expect something in return, maybe one piece of silverware please...
Paul David
533   Posted 03/05/2012 at 19:56:19

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Neil 445

I was about to tear into you till I read the end and seen your eyes welling up in anticipation of abuse so i'll wait till next time ha.
Dan Brierley
548   Posted 03/05/2012 at 20:10:45

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Here is an up to date list Steve from March this year:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/the-rundown/top-30-best-paid-managers-180530845.html

If you factor this against the money spent, and players salaries paid by the clubs, I think it shows why Moyes is 6th highest paid. But to be honest, I am not sure where this expectation that we should win trophies comes from. When I look at the league table we are 9 points behind Chelsea, and we all know how much they have spent, and the players salaries they can afford. Give Moyes the same money as the big teams above us, and I am certain he would deliver silverware. His work in the transfer market is nothing short of incredible. But expecting silverware on a 3 million average yearly spend seems unrealistic in my opinion.
Jamie Barlow
553   Posted 03/05/2012 at 20:49:30

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James@526, we should definitely cash in on Hibbert before it's to late.
James Bowman
560   Posted 03/05/2012 at 22:24:40

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Not until he scores James@553... somethings money can not buy and the post Hibbo scoring riot is right up there!
Jamie Barlow
588   Posted 04/05/2012 at 00:49:22

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Yeah o.k. I can live with that.
Lester Yip
592   Posted 04/05/2012 at 02:44:05

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Charlie and Steve King, I shared the same feeling as you do. I am grateful to have Moyes as manager. Those dark days were nightmares and now is way behind us. And I truly believe we are getting closer to getting a silverware soon.
Paul Holmes
702   Posted 04/05/2012 at 13:22:39

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It's a pity Moyes did not use 'BRAIN' instead of his stats when we played relegation-form Liverpool in the last 2 derby matches!

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