How do you measure a Manager?

As much as I don't like him I think your wrong about Ferguson. He managed to break the Old Firm monopoly and even won the CWC with Aberdeen. While he had more money than most clubs at Utd he still built the team up over a number of years before he won the league then managed to keep them at the top for a huge amount of time.

I think you need to set Ferguson apart from an otherwise interesting topic. In my opinion he has proven without doubt that he is a great manager. I think had he been sacked early in his career at United he'd have been successful elsewhere.

Bags of money can certainly highlight a poor manager if he misuses it but it's very hard to tell if the likes of Mourinho, Mancini etc would be any use without it. In fairness to Mourinho though, he's been extremely successful in four different top leagues.

On the other side of the coin it'd be interesting to see how the likes of Moyes, O'Neill etc would do if they were given cash.

How do you measure a manager? If it's Gordon Strachan then it's with a ruler

Ferguson has been a great manager, Mancini a very lucky one. Mancini the season before last was one of the most defensive boring managers in the league, then he bought Toure, Aguero, Nasri etc and they started to actually play attacking football.

Toure is the player that makes them tick, see the difference in results when he was at the Africans Cup of Nations.

Mancini has just bought the league and is taking the piss about not buying new players....... the same as last year, he bemoaned his squad numbers. Their bench costs more than 80% of the leagues first XI.

He isn't a great manager, he nearly blew it last year after having a 95% win ratio at home. He, in my eyes, is just a lucky one that has bought the league.

Agree on Ferguson. You just can't argue against what he's done over 20 years.

Agree with Shane on Mourhino, The Only One (God, what a character). I'd have to see him fail to believe it.

And definately agree with Tony J. on Mancini.

I think Mancini is the EPL's new Mourihno. The only difference between them is Mancini had an outstanding playing career.

The whole money argument is old, but I believe it's getting worse, and the prognosis for clubs like us is worse.

The Rodwell transfer really bothered me. Not that we sold him, or the fee, but the fact that Mancini immediately labels him a 2nd choice player, one for the future etc. who they are now paying £100k / week., almost 50% more than we pay our top earner. As well as the fact I think this could be bad for Rodwell's career (who I wouldn't blame if he didn't give a fuck what I think!), I worry that this is going to continue and any good players we bring through as first team regulars will go on to treble their money elsewhere as bit-part players.

And I haven't met a single person in the football industry anywhere who things Financial Fair Play is going to do anything about this.

I blow hot & cold as far as Ferguson being "great" is concerned. On the plus side he did break the "old firm" stranglehold in Scotland & has dominated the premier league since it's inception. On the down side it took him an awfully long time to win his first title in England & wasn't able to do it when Kendall was still at Everton, Dog-Leash still at Liverpool & Graham still at Arsenal. Even with these three out of the way he was pipped for another year by Howard Wilkinson & Leeds.

He was also lucky that he just got his big red nose over the finishing line first when the really big money associated with the premier league became available; perhaps incredibly lucky given that the player mostly credited by united for that first title win (Cantona) was a gamble by Ferguson on the back of how highly the United players rated Cantona having played against him the previous season.
OK..."great" but only with a small g!

When do the so-called Fair Play rules attempt to kick-in?

Matt (089) - "who they are now paying £100k / week".

There's the worry. Wonder what Fella's thoughts were hearing that? Is there any way we keep him after this next season?

Its not great managers who win you the league its the manager with the most money to spend simple as that.I don't rate mancini one little bit his team was dire before he went on his spending spree in Harrods love to see what he could do if he was shopping in aldi like moyes .You can not really have a go at fergie he has done it in scotland as well as England and Europe although he is going along the spend in Harrods road just to stay up with chelski and the arabs

I hate Mankini. He is arrogant, whiney, conceited and self important. To moan about resources when only 2 or 3 squads in the world are comparable is just lunacy. Cant wait to do the double over them this season!

Shane #095, I think it kicks in from 2015-16 season, but the measuring of financial performance commenced last season. Basically you can show a loss of EUR 45m over 3 seasons, but it's so subjective that it'll be a legal minefield for UEFA to actually do anything I fear.

In a nutshell, based on our current performance we should be okay as I can't see us having rolling 3-year losses of EUR 45m. But we won't be troubling anyone for UEFA qualification so it's moot.

I'll try to post links.

Click here to go to UEFA's website.

Or, for a more concise explanation of FFP and how clubs dodge it, Click wikiexplains it better, but is probably bollocks.

Well fuck my old boots if I didn't manage to post links without resorting to the 760 character URL crap.

Thanks Matt.

Without even looking I can imagine the figures will and can be manipulated to whatever is required which I think will suit all parties.

Wenger may have spent recently - but he has made some brilliant signings in the past, and went a whole season unbeaten.

I still enjoy watching Arsenal, I hope to see us emulate their style someday.

I’m not sure that it’s fair to categorize Mancini as being a lucky manager.

Prior to taking over at City he took Inter Milan to their first Serie A title in seventeen seasons, retained it for the next two and won four cups along the way. A lucky manager might conceivably pick up or two cup during their career, but four league titles (and counting) in two of the World’s great Leagues? Come on...

I look for someone who has built a significant team from far less than his peers.

Shankly, Busby and Clough are the only great managers in my time but good ones include Kendal, Royle, Paisley, Revie, Robson, Wenger.

Unfortunately managers don't get the time these days (ahem!) getting sacked after 2 years. As far as I know the only manager to build a team/club from zip recently was Martinez at Swansea.

Chairmen know this even if fans don't hence he's in demand.

Hope he comes here when Moyes moves on this season.

Kevin #117,
Wenger is a funny one as he seems to polarise opinion amongst his own supporters, I guess as the frustrations of 7 trophy-less seasons and losing their best talent begins to bite (I know...!)

Arsenal had a business plan for Ashburton Grove which seems to have worked. Since opening in 2006, I believe they have paid down more than half of the debt (in part after the Highbury Square development started paying out).

With the increased matchday revenue, before this close season, they had around £115m cash at hand. With all their ownership arguments, fans are unsure whether to blame the board for being tight-wads, refusing to accept the Eastern Bloc money on offer, or whether it's Wenger's self-imposed limits on transfer and wage spending.

I had a couple of drinks with some suits from Arsenal in a lounge after last season's Goodison game, and they seemed a bit torn about it. On the one hand, they've got the new stadium, cash rich, long term security, but on the other they feel they're most vulnerable to the pressure to get into the top 4, yet weren't sure that spending to keep up with the Al Jones' was the way forward.

At least they had the good grace to say "Still, better than being in your position"!

Considering how ridiculous running football clubs has become, I think in years to come Arsenal fans may come to thank Wenger for what is a very healthy position for a club to be in. Yes, he and the Board could certainly get away with spending a little more money and still be very responsible financially, but compared to the other big clubs Arsenal FC has a definite stable future ahead of it. Not many big clubs can say that for now.

You can say that Arsenal fans would love silverware but look at Man Utd. For all their revenue streams, their spending is nothing compared to other big clubs as the debt has to be serviced first. Their squad is ageing badly and falling behind City, Barca and all their other big rivals. Utd won nothing last year and Ferguson's magic can only do so much.

Obviously a manager is measured by results, as evidenced by the rampant hiring & firing culture that pervades football. In the most competitive league on the planet, our own gaffer has expertly survived this particular industry pitfall.

So, for a long-term manager, I look towards the transformation of ethos at the club, the development of youth, the financial prudency demonstrated in the wheeling & dealing, and of course the legacy Moyes will leave us.

Since Colin Harvey's 87' vintage, as we all know, Everton went on a downward spiral, finishing in the top-ten just ONCE in the 1990's. When I once told a Londoner that I was an Evertonian, he actually burst out laughing.

However, since Moyes's arrival, in a league that has increasingly grown more difficult, we have undoubtedly been transformed into a regular top ten team, with 8 top eight finishes in 10 years. Moyes's accomplishment in this regard, is indisputable. Granted, we are a long way removed from our 80's Golden Era, but footballs proverbial goalposts have significantly moved since then, and we have long since been left behind.

Moyes therefore has always had to cut his cloth accordingly, and it is due to his talent, skill, knowledge, coaching and dedication to Everton, that our club has regained a proud reputaion - as compared to the relative laughing-stock we had become in the 90's. Pound-for-pound, there are few managers around who can hold a candle to him.

Ferguson is the elite, granted. In my opinion, Mancini has found it easy. I'd rate Tony Pulis above the Italian; If he was managing, say, Yeovil, on buttons, THAT would be a good indicator on whether Mancini's a talented manager. His Inter Milan squad (referenced above) were littered with expensive foreign imports, and I think this skews the ability to judge his merit. (It does for me, anyway).

Matt #127,

I have heard some Arsenal supporters saying they want Wenger replaced, and they want to win some silverware. Most of them are probably glory hunters, not old school fans who remember the 1-0's they were famous for.

Some of the football they played when they had Henry, Bergkamp, Pires et al was truly a pleasure to watch. Even the recent teams have been good value for me - and he has a minus net spend.

We are forced down the route of pragmatic football with such a wafer thin squad, but Moyes persists with his negative tactics until we are safe in the League.

Maybe now we have Jelavic and a few others we may witness a change in our early season playing style. Here's hoping !!

Agree with Aiden #119,
Mancinis managerial career stands up with and without money, I still can't stand the arrogant patronising and whiney twat though.

Steve,

You might want to take a little look at when Mancini won those titles in Italy, the first only due to Juventus being found guilty in the match fixing scandal and stripped of the title. The second, with Juventus out of the league, and all their main competitors having points further deducted. The third was very close as Juventus was only just back in the league, and no points deducted from their rivals, but those other teams still recovering from the match fixing scandal.

When he was at a club with financial problems, Fiorentina, he quit the post with them in the relegation zone, and they were relegated. Then he went to Lazio, who were also hit with financial issues, and he finished 4th and 6th in the league.

So, am I saying he's a shit manager? No. But his managerial career has greatly been boosted by his competitors being stripped of a title and relegated, having massive points deducted in successive seasons, and then landing the job that has allowed him to spend somewhere in the region of 500 Million over his years there, where he has won the league once.

Kev #141
Mancini also won trophies at Fiorentina and Lazio, both of whom sold their best players at the time to balance the books, and were on the bones of their arses financially.

Fair points Dave, but I still think he did an OK job with no money to speak of, but yes, any manager with the resources he has now, should be able to win trophies I think.

I would like to know how much comparative dough ferguson had to throw around at a time when Aberdeen was in an oil boom.

Second one, Mancini won with inter, as inter were the only ones throwing money around.

Money helps.

Steve (182)

Fair tackle.

Would you believe that on the 22tnd November, 2011, I posted this on ToffeeWeb..?.(Source: 'All You Need Is Luck,' thread).

"Okay, try managing Fiorentina and being forced into selling Rui Costa & Francesco Toldo - but winning the Coppa Italia whilst reching the UEFA Cup Semi Final.

Then taking over at Lazio, where even worse financial constraints apply: The players forced into taking an 80% pay cut, whilst Mancini had to sell Crespo & Nesta. He still delivered a Coppa Italia.

Moratti threw money at every manager, but it was Mancini who produced Inter's first trophy in 16 years.'

For some reason, possibly due to Mancini's graceless attitude, I'd completely forgotten his previous accomplishments!!

Thanks for straightening me out..:)

I'm neither here nor there on Mancini. He's won things, but pointing to his Italian titles is a bit far. I won 2 of them (or something) in retrospect because the better clubs were bribing refs in games they would have won anyway.

My only gripe with saying he's only winning because he's at a club with the big money is - if they can afford the best players, wouldn't they be selecting their manager on some similar criteria? I mean, it's like saying Keane, Scholes and Giggs only won titles because they played for United.

Hughes spent Liberia's deficit (admittedly less than Mancini) while at City and would have won less than Moyes nearly won.

Money is important, but some don't know what to do when they get it.

Barry # 122 No Catterick and Paisley only Good, no accounting for taste.

Mancini is apparently interested in Drenthe (as a full back?), presumably so Balotellis antics don't look so bizarre in comparison?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1134181/manchester-city-leading-chase-for-royston-drenthe?cc=4716

Oh no, wait till Jimmy sees that!

Harry Catterick was the best Manager. The football played by Everton under his stewardship was the best I've ever seen.Brazil 1970 were pretty good also.
Mancini's record speaks for itself. Whatever anyone says- he delivers.Only his European record comes into question.

Re Kevin Hudson @ #141

Well it must have been a right London dickhead you were talking with then. I have lived on the South Coast for 23 years now and when people ask who my team is — obvious choice of three given my accent – upon declaring 'Everton', all I've ever had from day one without exception is looks and smiles of respect / pleasure / admiration / contentment / understanding / agreement / any of the above and lots more, but mainly RESPECT.

I've always taken it as a universal hatred of the RS more than anything else but hey, I'll take that. They all seem to know exactly where I'm coming from.

OMG — I love the blues and I love being blue!!