2012-13 – The Season the Perceptions Changed?

By Andrew James  ::  02/12/2012 Like many Evertonians, I have been massively frustrated so far this season. We have undoubtedly dominated most matches we’ve played in. In the Premier League, only one team have really outplayed us and, quite rightly, they beat us. If it weren’t for some preposterous officialdom and soft defending, we would be in the title race.

Over the years, I’ve come to have no belief in Everton on the pitch. I was a little scruffbag when we won the league in the 1980s and never got the superiority complex that some might have. Instead, I ended up with quite the opposite after Heysel, losing the double, three FA Cup defeats et al. In the 1990s, my expectations had been so dramatically lowered that I actually felt galvanised when the Dogs of War came to the fore.

Under Moyes, for the most part, it’s been good. It started out as a side who would scramble 1 - 0 wins before becoming a team who would outplay everyone outside the Sky 4 and, in games against them, would be found wanting for both ability and self-belief. It was a case of knowing our place. We have no decent money to spend so all the patronising media soundbites “punching above their weight” etc etc seemed the best we would hope to achieve.

For me Wembley 2009 epitomized that “close but no cigar” psychology. Players like Leon Osman and Phil Jagielka just looked happy to be there. Last season, after seemingly overcoming some of our hang-ups, we horribly crumbled on the same turf and the Moyes epitaph was nearly written.

However, this season, I have seen a big upturn. Not necessarily in points but certainly in terms of the perception from the media, other fans, and in the heads of most of our players. I have always maintained that Arsenal are our bogey team and we, in turn, are the same for Manchester City. Therefore, I was convinced we’d lose to Arsenal and get a point off City. That didn’t quite happen but what pleased me more was that we went toe to toe with both sides and, especially against the Gunners, battered them.

After years and years of taking our punishment off the big boys, now we go after them. Liverpool are not the force they were in the last decade but still, two-nil down and we were not phased. We beat Man Utd with some great football. I fully expect us to do likewise against Spurs and Chelsea when we play them (the latter being a team who we tend to get points off). We fear nobody.

The other day in work, I said “Leighton Baines is the best left back in Europe”. I was surprised that this statement came from my lips because my colleagues nearly always mock me for my claims about the Blues. I waited for the reproach; it never came. Instead, all I saw was nodding. If Fellaini plays well for 20 minutes, it’s often enough to secure the points because he’s that good. The international call-up has done Leon Osman the world of good because now he believes in himself.

The media are coming out with hyperbole about the Toffees that might be long overdue but now it is fashionable to give us praise beyond the usual faint pat-on-the-back stuff. The boys themselves are being honest about their intentions; they want 4th. And why the heck not?

There are four things that are stopping us from going 4th in my opinion. We’ve seemingly broken down the mental barrier of inadequacy which is permeating through to the fans. But, strangely, we’ve got into a bad habit of not closing games down. Mentally, we need back-to back-wins. If we can do that, then we will soar up the table. I was at Fulham when we conceded that killer goal. It came about because nobody was able to hoof the ball out of the cluttered midfield when their lanky centre-back stepped up. Gibson being back will stop such fiascoes as that from happening again.

The second aspect is Moyes and his contract. But that’s linked to the third issue... being transfers. We need to bring in a couple of signings – primarily a striker (Jelavic needs someone to challenge him) and another body for the midfield or defence (more for the long term) would be useful given the ages of players like Distin and Neville. I suspect £8 million spending money might just convince Moyes to put pen to paper. Hell, even £5 million might do the trick given that he wasn’t able to sign anyone above a million for 2 years.

The final hurdle is beyond our control. The officialdom has been utterly shocking. Disallowed goals against Newcastle, offsides against us at Wigan, dodgy penalties at City, Suarez not sent off, imaginary free kicks against the Canaries… it goes on and on. Quite simply, we need to spank someone. 4 or 5 goals will do. That might exorcise the demons and mean that the terrible refereeing decisions won’t make a difference which they always will when you can’t score more than a couple and always let a goal or two in.

Moyes – please sign that fecking contract. We are good for you and you are good for us. It’s the perfect fit. Then we can go on and smash up a few reputations and enter the big time once more. The ground has been laid. Let’s play on it.

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Pat Finegan
394 Posted 03/12/2012 at 06:19:59
I really enjoyed that, Andrew. I think we have definitely shaken the inferiority complex. This time last year, we would have been thrilled to take a point each from Arsenal and City. Now this year it's disappointing. Somehow we're still only 3 points shy of 3rd place where I honestly think we will end up.
Ajay Gopal
400 Posted 03/12/2012 at 08:46:28
Superb article, Andrew. I think the Moyes contract issue is going to become bigger and bigger as the season goes on and it will distract the players. I think that is one of the big factors why the team, while not playing badly, has not been able to close out games and get the wins.

I am disappointed by Moyes's "Let us wait and see what happens in the January window and then I might sign" comment. He knows the financial situation at the club. BK is not suddenly going wave a wad in front of him.

Moyes needs to make up his mind now – not fritter away the season until it is too late. It is possible to break into the Top 4 – Moyes himself has shown that. But he needs to commit to the club.
Kevin Tully
405 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:04:17
There are only two other managers in the League who can wield the sort of power Moyes has at Everton: Ferguson & Wenger.

Ferguson has won every trophy there is to win, and Wenger has presided over an Arsenal side in the Champions League for the last 13 seasons, as well as winning numerous trophies. Wenger went a whole season unbeaten, and made his club a fortune through his transfer dealings.

I want Moyes to sign a new deal, but it should be on our terms, not his. I don't consider him to be a visionary, groundbreaking world class manager, who can name his own price & conditions.

A new job can turn sour for even the best out there; be careful what you wish for, Mr Moyes.

Nick Entwistle
407 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:19:02
What are you banging on about Kevin? What are his terms? And what are yours? If you have a seat round the negotiation table, I want one too.
Kevin Tully
408 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:28:47
Nick, he has said he is waiting to see what happens in January & where the club is at the end of the season, before he thinks about a new contract.

If they are not his terms, what are they?

If an employee is one of the highest paid in his field, I would expect a little more respect — he is not the legend he thinks he is!

Lee Mandaracas
409 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:07:21
I thought your article was excellent Andrew, with one glaring error: Phil Jagielka couldn't have just looked happy to be there at the 2009 FA Cup Final as he didn't make it! He was gutted to be a mere spectator, as were both Arteta and Yakubu.

We lost the spine of our team with serious long-term injuries (if memory serves, all three were cruciate ligament injuries too) and I believe if we had had that trio present we would have come out on top. At the time, I thought we still might have done if Jacobsen had played the full 90 as I thought Hibbert had an awful first half that day and cost us the Drogba equaliser.
Ray Roche
412 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:52:41
Lee, just for the record, Yakubu had an Achilles injury. Hibbert's poor game was the result of that idiot referee Webb who decided to book him after 8 minutes to "stamp his authority" on the game. Hibbert was bricking it from that moment on and couldn't make a proper tackle. Funny, Webb decided he didn't need to "stamp his authority" on Chelsea.
Brian Harrison
413 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:46:36

I think you completely misjudge why Moyes is waiting till the window closes before he agrees a new contract. I don't believe it is anything to do with his own personal terms, but more of what commitment the board will allow him to spend on players. He has too often had to sell for the club to survive and he doesn't want to have to sell in this window which would greatly hinder any chance of us qualifying for the Champions League.

Realistically, you can say that Man Utd and Man City will finish in the top two places leaving two places up for grabs. I think that Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and ourselves will be battling it out for the other two places. But I would imagine the other three will strengthen their squads in January quite substantially. So Moyes is saying to our board: "If you want me to compete with these clubs, then I need help."

Phil Walling
414 Posted 03/12/2012 at 09:50:47
Well said,Andrew,a very sensible summation of where we are at present. In spite of my backing us today for a 6th/7th finish (at 4/5 and lose my money if any higher or lower!),I agree that with re-inforcements in the window we could make top four.
But hey,this is Everton we`re talking about so prepare to be disappointed.
Phil Walling
415 Posted 03/12/2012 at 10:09:19
Wrong again, Brian. Moyes is waiting to see what`s available – and offered – elsewhere.

My money is on a move to Arsenal. You heard it first from me!
Kevin Tully
417 Posted 03/12/2012 at 10:16:47
Whatever his reasons, Brian, I don't believe he has achieved enough in the game to have such a massive influence on the direction of this club.

I have stated why only two other managers have such power above. Our spineless board are just happy to be in the League, that's why Moyes holds all the cards. I think for the prestige of the position & £3M or upwards a year, he should be begging to sign a new contract.

If you are instructing players to sign new deals, put their limbs on the line and want full commitment, you have to lead from the front.
How can he persuade players to come to the club in January if his future is in the balance?

James Martin
420 Posted 03/12/2012 at 10:47:49
I don't think the inferiority complex has changed at all. What has changed is that we are undoubtedly better at football than we ever have been before. That is what is keeping us in some games and meaning that we odn't lose. We have the ability to score against anyone at any time home or away which we haven't had in the side for a long time. Perhaps 'inferiority complex' is the wrong term but 'chokers complex' should be the nomenclature.

This team seems scared to win games it should be winning. Against Arsenal and Liverpool we had drawn level with them without much of a problem yet found ourselves unable , with the best part of the match remaining, to turn the screw despite having most of the possession. It was almost as if once we'd got back to 2-2 in the derby eveyrone thought 'who better slow up here we don't want a great comeback win, a draw is plucky enough'. Too many last minute goals have been conceded, too many first minute goals conceded, too many golden missed chances, and of course too many refereeing decisions. I think Moyes is a great manager but his players (and perhaps him himself) choke whenever the pressure is on. I've long thought that our poor starts have been down to expectations of us challenging for Europe or the champions league. We only ever seemed to pick up the performances once we were so far behind that all the pressure was off completely, we'd then beat most teams all season before of course losing at Anfield, the one game with any significance, before choking as soon as we got within a sniff of Europe or silverware. This season we started like a train with no expectations whatsoever, uninhibited free flowing football beating good teams home and away. As soon as the pressure went on us of maintaining that position then it all fell apart. Following it up with a derby win? Gave them a two goal headtsart. Beating our potential rivals for fourth? Would be too big a statement. Beating Fulham away? Lets not get too high in the league. Now we're a bit more under the radar perhaps we will beat spurs.

We just don't believe in ourselves enough. We're already spouting off about how 4th is too hard because of our squad, meanwhile Liverpool with an even weaker squad than ours are bigging themselevs up for it despite being 4 points behind us. Some no mark team like them with the worst side in their recent history will walk into fourth because they want it whilst us despite being blatantly superior do not have the winning mentlity to go and take it for ourselves. There's always an excuse, always an individual error (semi final), always some bad luck. We're more comfortable revelling in the role of unlucky nearly men than actually winning something. Like others have said we could have been out of sight this season and almost had fourth wrapped up, we've only got ourselves to blame as to why we haven't. The more we continue to choke the more the media will tell us we're a choking team and the more we will continue to choke. Until we win a game when the pressure is on that sends a statement to everyone else in the league then we will have not shaken off our inferiority complex and the perceptions of us will ultimately never change. Oh to score a last minute goal this season that wins a big game, everyone else seems capable of it, we seem offended by the thought of it.

Ajay Gopal
421 Posted 03/12/2012 at 11:12:37
James Martin, well said! I wanted to post an article title " The Lack of Belief" but your post seems to have covered it. The main difference between a club like Man Utd and us is just that – BELIEF! Man Utd go into every match expecting to win, whereas we go into every match hoping that we can win.
Barry Rathbone
422 Posted 03/12/2012 at 11:19:00
Kevin Tully, well said.

Unfortunately, this business of 'just existing' has permeated the fanbase — the place is riven with fear — and doesn't the Moyes know it.

I note Arsenal fans were marching before the Swansea game in protest... Arsenal fans!!! and they get Champions League EVERY YEAR!!!

Nick Entwistle
425 Posted 03/12/2012 at 11:48:18
Kevin, I agree with Brian, but so what if Moyes is looking to see what his options are? He's put in 10 years and has a right to explore other options when the board are not matching his and everyone else's ambitions. That is power and influence that anyone has at the end of a contract.

The club too have the right to explore other options, which is why contracts come with fixed terms. You make it sound like he's taking Everton – be that the board, team or fans – for a ride for his own greedy good. Let me guess: like Barry you're not one of his biggest fans?
Nick Entwistle
427 Posted 03/12/2012 at 11:57:15
... and! It's obvious Moyes doesn't have influence on the club. Zero net spend in the last two transfer windows. No first team cash signings in the previous four. Is this the almighty Moyes you talk of?

And all of a sudden you make out like he's expecting a £20m war chest. Could you be more clear? I think he just wants better than what he's got already, and don't we all!

Being an Everton supporter isn't a career, but a manager is, and he wants CL football which the board are unable to do their bit to influence that.
Jim Hourigan
428 Posted 03/12/2012 at 11:29:50
Good article Andrew which makes some very good points. However, I think James' comments hit the nail on the head. There is a collective lack of self belief and it stems from Moyes.

Travelling back on Saturday, when they interviewed Moyes apart from his clear anger at the penalty decision, the whole tenor of his comments were about how good everyone else is and how difficult it is to break into the top 4. Not withstanding his disappointment, I realise that there is always a degree of kidology that goes on, and some element of bluff and double bluff but the reality is that Moyes does not exude confidence nor does he instill or inspire people when they listen to him – so what are his team talks like?

Anyone who knows anything about good man management knows how crucial it is to inspire and instill confidence in your workforce, to show how much you trust and believe in them, whilst clearly not over egging beyond credibility. It could be argued that Moyes shows trust by never / very rarely changing a team that has done well, but is that trust in their ability to do better?

There is a well known example of expectations and achievement referred to as Pygmallion in the classroom, where those that were constantly told they could not achieve and it was beyond them did exactly that – not achieve, whereas a different group were told they could achieve and did have the ability and guess what, even though they were of lesser ability than the other group, they out performed them. The power of good management and raising expectations goes way beyond this analogy and is used in all walks of life.

Will we get 4th or 3rd? Not if the manager doesn't believe we can, if he always thinks they are better than us, we will, as James says, choke when we need to step forward and win games.

I've listened to Moyes speak at gatherings and he is personable and likeable, but is he inspirational? Sadly not for me.

I watched Roger Black (400 m runner) hold 1,000 people spellbound as he took everyone through his gold medal race, even though everyone knew the outcome as it had happened 2 years before. Inspirational? – Yes; a good football manager? – No... but to move us forward to the next level, Moyes either has to develop these skills or we will constantly fall short and lose the big games that mean things.

It is no surprise that we have never won away at the so-called Sky 4 (excluding City), if your attitude is always that they are better and we are lucky to be here. I think that part of the reason we have drawn so many games is the lack of self-belief that we can win. Wanting to win is clearly what everyone including Moyes wants; knowing how to win and how to transmit that to the players is surely what he gets paid £3m per year to do!!!

Brian Harrison
429 Posted 03/12/2012 at 12:47:05
Barry Rathbone

Did you say the fans are happy just existing!?! So finishing in 4th, 5th, 6th and other top 10 finishes is 'just existing'?

Also, you mention Arsenal fans protesting — well, maybe if my season ticket was £1,200 per year and my club were making in excess of £35 million and not spending, I think I might protest. That's not to mention the rake-off in bonuses that their board take out of the club.

I view David Moyes's position at Everton like turning up in a 10-year-old Skoda for a motor race and finding the seven cars in front of you on the grid are all Ferraris — you would be doing brilliantly to get ahead of any of them, yet Moyes is doing it on a regular basis. Mind, I suppose even then there will be a fan on the site saying he should be finishing higher than 5th.

Mike Powell
430 Posted 03/12/2012 at 12:52:50
I think Moyes is waiting to see if Kenwright is going to sell one of our big stars (Fellaini or Baines). If he does, then I think he will call it a day.

If we don't sell anyone, and maybe get one or two more in, then Moyes will sign. Let's hope he signs.
Kevin Tully
433 Posted 03/12/2012 at 13:29:50
Nick, I have stated in numerous threads I want Moyes to sign a new contract, as long as he keeps on playing decent football.

I just don't think it's right that he's in a position to choose if we can match HIS ambitions. This coming from a manager who won the square root of fuck all, and is paid a fortune at one the biggest clubs in English football.

Nick Entwistle
436 Posted 03/12/2012 at 13:46:22
Are you saying Kevin that you're critical of Moyes for being too ambitious?

The thing about ambitions is that they are generally matched by the individual's ability. If the club can't keep up, fair play if he moves on.

Paul David
438 Posted 03/12/2012 at 13:47:54
I don't believe Moyes is holding out for more wages or to see if he has any transfer funds (he will have been told already what funds are available if any seeing as the window is less than a month away). I think he is waiting to see if a job with money comes up.
Kevin Tully
439 Posted 03/12/2012 at 13:51:12
Nick, it's a different ball game when you are given a target to achieve.

All he has had to do at Everton is keep us up. Spurs got rid of Harry for finishing 4th, they were going for the title at one point.

Let's see what Moyes achieves at a new club after two years, when the heat is on to play good football AND win something.

Most Evertonians are desperate for Moyes to stay, they believe we will be relegated if he goes. I don't think that for one minute.

Ray Roche
440 Posted 03/12/2012 at 14:07:32
Thinking back a year or so... weren't there loads on here suggesting Rodgers, Martinez, Lambert, O'Neill et al would be a better bet than Moyes? Anyone still feel the same? Rodgers.......?
Nick Entwistle
442 Posted 03/12/2012 at 14:28:26
Kevin, where to start.

Either he has ambitions like you've said, or he is happy with the bare minimum of board expectation of keeping us up, like you've said. You can't have it both ways.

If the line about BK being happy just to remain in the PL happens to be true, it is no concern to Moyes as he sets his own targets. Which manager does not?

You're misinterpreting the departure of Redknapp being performance based; you have a very out-of-date opinion about our potential relegation, and if two years of Moyes at another club is required to prove you wrong, I'll happily say you're right if it means he stays.

You may not be enamoured with the guy but don't invent blather to back it up.

ps: He has won silverware before, albeit with another club.

Patrick Murphy
443 Posted 03/12/2012 at 14:28:51
Kevin, let's see how Everton get on without Moyes at the helm. All of the managers out there will want a war-chest and if BK hasn't got one the only possible replacement will be from within: Round, Stubbs, Neville et al. Unless we approach Big Sam who is also in the last 6 months of his contract at WHU.

So the core problem, as it has been throughout DM's reign, lies within the Boardroom.

BK's insistence that something will turn up is like a gambler who is heavily in debt hoping to win the lottery for the total outlay of a single pound. Unless a fundamental change is made, we will have to 'Keep Calm and Carry On' and hope that BK manages to find those lucky lotto numbers... can't wait.

Michael Kenrick
447 Posted 03/12/2012 at 14:51:39
Whaddaya mean — no trophy???!?!?

Neville holds steh MLS All-Stars Trophy aloft

Brian Waring
449 Posted 03/12/2012 at 14:52:26
I remember the last time his contract was near an end. We had all this "There is no rush to sign" etc from Moyes. We had lads on here saying he was waiting to see if BK came up with any cash. The only thing that sticks in my mind from that time, was Moyes coming out of it with a huge pay rise.
Jamie Barlow
452 Posted 03/12/2012 at 15:39:21
It was only what he deserved.
Colin Potter
453 Posted 03/12/2012 at 15:24:48
I would just like to see him take his 20% cut.
Kevin Tully
454 Posted 03/12/2012 at 15:32:15
Patrick, you really do underestimate the size of this club, and the prestige that goes with being the manger of Everton FC.

You say "All of the managers out there will want a war-chest" and "the only possible replacement will be from within: Round, Stubbs, Neville."

Don't you think a £3M-a-season salary, and the profile of managing the fourth most successful club in England will get you a top flight manager?

No – try the employment conditions: "Just keep us in the league, son – anything else is a bonus."

Or – "No pressure to win anything, and you can have as long as you want to build a side, as long as we don't go down."

I would go as far to say that it's one of the most attractive positions in English football.

Brent Stephens
457 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:11:00

Why should merely avoiding relegation be the sole ambition of BK and the board? And why pay £3M for somebody just to achieve that?

Dave Lynch
458 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:04:58
Lets face it, if Moyes jibbed it tomorrow he's earned enough from us to never have to work again in his life.
So why not go and try for a club with bigger ambitions than little Everton who's board have no vision or ambition, who won't even allow for AGM's in case the wrong questions are asked and their smoke and mirrors illusion is blown and who have to sell their best players to balance the books ?
If I was him i'd be out the fucking door like a shot, I bet it's Celtic he go's to as ive a feeling Lennon has had enough their.
Patrick Murphy
460 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:02:46
Kevin, I do not underestimate the size of the club, but I would argue that the current Everton FC is not comparable to the one most of us set out supporting.

We will be extremely lucky to find a manager with the same ethics, principles and loyalty as David Moyes has shown. I agree that David Moyes has many faults in terms of tactical nouse and his natural cautiousness.

Managers similar to Martinez will possibly be tempted to move to Goodison, but the same problems will blight whoever takes the hot-seat, that was the essence of my thinking.

Given the financial situation, we will be very fortunate indeed to find someone who can match DM's achievements, such as they are.

Even if those who believe that DM will fall flat on his face when managing a club such as Arsenal are right, it will be of no use to us as Evertonians, unless we find someone of a higher calibre.

Now, if you know of a young manager with the personality and ability of a Brian Clough or Bobby Robson, perhaps you could point the Board in his direction.

Kevin Tully
461 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:23:44
Let's just say I believe Moyes is a very lucky man to be managing Everton — not the other way around.
Barry Rathbone
462 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:07:01
I don't see one good reason why Moyes hasn't ironed out whatever questions he has well before now and made an honest decision.

Taking supporters for mugs will bite him on the arse, we'll hit a bad spell and the media will be all over him asking if he's a lame duck with his uncertain future.

You can see it coming a mile away – he's as dull as dishwater at times.

Jamie Barlow
463 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:37:23
He's well within his rights to see what 'tools' he has to work with before he signs another contract.
Barry Rathbone
464 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:48:00
Jamie nothing to stop Moyes asking "are we selling or what?".

Could have done that before now, as I said no good reason.

Brent Stephens
467 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:57:20
But Barry, do you trust BK and the board? so why should DM trust any answer he would get to a question "Are we selling or not?".
Barry Rathbone
468 Posted 03/12/2012 at 17:02:46
Brent, what's to stop Moyes and the board sorting a contract with provision for him to leave if Felli/Baines etc got sold? - nothing.

To great fanfare they could announce the "great news" and on we'd go. As it stands it looks like Moyes is saying:

"FOR SALE - £4 million ono"

In the autotraders version of Football Chairmans Weekly.


Brian Harrison
469 Posted 03/12/2012 at 16:51:40
I think many posters should remember how close to relegation we were when Moyes took over from Walter Smith, now there was dour miserable man, who thought buying the likes of Ginola and Gazza was the way to build a football club. And yes I am aware if his record at Rangers, but if he had stayed that season we would have been playing Championship football.

So I will gladly take David Moyes with whatever faults some perceive he has, because the only better managers than him that would improve our club are unattainable.

Jamie Barlow
471 Posted 03/12/2012 at 17:09:08
How do you know he hasn't Barry?

It seems to me that he just wants to see how serious the board are. If we are up near the top in January and they back him with money to strengthen, I think he'll sign.

If they don't, he won't, and I don't blame him one bit for getting out.

Kevin Tully
472 Posted 03/12/2012 at 17:15:45
It's a smokescreen if anyone believes Moyes's contract negotiations, are somehow tied into what players are going to be at the club next season.

What if Fellaini or Baines or any player do a Lescott, and decide they are leaving no matter what?

Moyes knows he can't make any player stay against their will - look at Ronaldo or Fabregas for example, sackloads of money & trophies and they still wanted away.

How can he preach about signing new contracts anyway? He only has 6 months left on his own!

Barry Rathbone
473 Posted 03/12/2012 at 17:25:31
Brian, some need to remember this club isn't fashioned in the image of the Johnson years – far from it.

Walter's era was all about the last vestiges of expectation: he was lied to about the state of the club and become a lame duck but his appointment showed ambition; his teams were never as bad as portrayed, they just couldn't meet what was historically demanded.

Once expectation was binned, existing in the division was a piece of piss – and that's what we've done; no miracle – just realism.

Moyes's appointment dispensed with ambition; he was a novice without any track record or any club association and not only has he won NOTHING playing mostly dull football – he's never remotely looked like winning anything.

He's Joe Ordinary doing a scout's job on a manager's wage... and don't give me any of that old pony about money. He blew that argument up himself when shipping out Bily and Rodwell and getting better in – that's the name of the game. If he doesn't like it, then the quicker he goes, the better... he's not paid £3.5 million to put the bibs out.

Jim Knightley
475 Posted 03/12/2012 at 17:26:37
Kevin... History means bugger all these days.

The manager's job at Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, United, City and Liverpool (if they start spending again), will be in more demand than the EFC job. We have no money, simple as that. We will get a mid-range manager if Moyes goes, not a top one. Notts Forest and Leeds were big names... not many are lining up for their hotseat these days.

Many managers will look at Moyes's reign as near impossible at repeating... a manager could come in and win a cup, but what chance really do we have of still being in this position in the league in 5 years? Generally, every season we are outspent by the clubs above us and a few positions below us, and the mis-spending clubs won't keep getting it wrong (and we wont keep getting it right).

Moyes has earned his right to expect some kind of assurance from the board about transfer funds before he signs a new contract. Fans on here moan at Moyes when he comes out with typically pessimistic, or unambitious comments (forgetting the difference between public and private), and wish he showed more ambition. Well, this is Moyes showing ambition... he seemingly wants to manage a club with the potential of moving forward, not the inevitability of moving backwards.

There is one aspect of this club which has prevented us from regular challenging for the Champions League places... It is not Moyes, whose transfer record is fantastic and whose tactical mutability is greater than he is given credit for... it is because of a board which does not support us financially.

I don't expect Moyes wants to see a lot in the transfer kitty, and I don't think we expect a lot either, but how much more competitive would we be if we could spend £5-10million a year on transfer fees before player sales? What could we have achieved with the money of Liverpool or Spurs? Or even Sunderland or Villa?

Brent Stephens
477 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:11:03
Barry you say "Moyes's appointment dispensed with ambition; he was a novice without any track record or any club association and not only has he won NOTHING playing mostly dull football – he's never remotely looked like winning anything."

Unless I misread that, you're saying BK had no ambition in appointing DM. In which case, he's done what BK wanted in not winning lots of pots. And in which case, if DM goes, we get a replacement who BK wants to achieve little. I can't see your logic.

Peter Warren
481 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:17:58
Moyes will be manager as long as he wants – no point debating it. Biggest problem, as has been for years, is the board – not the manager.
Barry Rathbone
482 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:27:56
Brent you've answered your own quandary... Kenwright's ambition lies with protecting his investment, ie, staying in the Premier League.

Winning stuff isn't an ambition it's a wistful glance into the ether while singing Judy Garland's "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" — Moyes being trophyless for 10 years should tell you that.

Barry Rathbone
483 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:33:54
Jim, who are these top managers? Mourinho who's just about to get run out of Madrid, Pep who's been cosseted by the Barca system and yet to be really tested, AVB? Rafa? - running out of sexy foreign names now .

It's a false premise - Pardew was dead in the water a year or so ago now he's doing alright, Mark hughes was flavour of the month not so long ago now he's on his ear, Sven and Capello were examples of managerial titans buoyed by winning cv's but found wanting when a rich club wasn't behind them.

We need an "up and comer" not one of the bullshit boys from the managerial merry go round or Jonny foreigner just because he has an exotic accent. If Swansea can attract Laudrup I'm damn sure we can do similar despite you're assertions about our history.

Like all these Moyes eulogies they reek of fear of change, I just don't get it.

One day a manager will come along and build a team of waifs and strays, cast offs, round pegs in square holes and build a team like Keegan did promoting Newcastle. I just hope they go one better and win something it'll be a shot in the arm for all supporters and please god it's here.

It won't be Moyes though.

Brent Stephens
484 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:41:08
Barry, can I again remind you of what you said earlier "Moyes's appointment dispensed with ambition; he was a novice without any track record or any club association and not only has he won NOTHING playing mostly dull football – he's never remotely looked like winning anything". So, do you want Moyes to go or stay? Sounds like you want him to go. Do you?

But are you also saying BK had (and still has) no ambition in appointing Moyes? In which case, Moyes going doesn't solve BK's lack of ambition.

I'm just asking for clarification of what you think.

Jim Knightley
485 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:37:17
Barry...if you don't think Mourinho is a top manager, than you know nothing about football. He is a tactical mastermind...he pulled off the most impressive Champions League victory of the decade with Porto, repeated it with Inter, and turned Chelsea into the league's best team for a while. His achievements with Real last season in the league were incredible...and this season, Real have suffered from poor form, Ronaldo's tantrum's, and most importantly of all, a diminished squad because of player sales. But they will still finish second in Spain, to the best team in the world, and have a great shot at the Champ League and Copa.

I also don't understand your argument, and where is has come from...one comment suggests Kenwright is unambitious because he appointed Moyes, who was by definition an 'up and comer', and then a later statement says we need an 'up and comer' as our next manager....and then you seem to suggest the idea of a top manager is a fallacy... also, hilarious comments re. Guardiola.... I suppose Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc are not top managers either because they've not played for Stoke? You talk in nonsensical contradictions.

Now it is not fear of change that lies behind Everton Supporters wishing to see the Moyes reign continue, it is realism. But please, answer a question for me (Try to be free of contradictions) -

1) Did Moyes take over a relegation squad, and then turn Everton into regular Europa League challengers with a smaller budget than most of the teams in the league?

2) Which team has a won the league, or cup trophy recently, in this division, without spending more money than Moyes? (Also, probaly best to ignore the relegated options, for obvious reasons)

Now, when Everton fans consider a few simple facts...that money dictates football, that Everton have spent less money in the last few seasons in the Premier League than most of the bottom 10 teams in the division, but have consistently finished in the top half....well Barry, strangely enough, some Everton fans fear that the next manager will not be as successful as Moyes. They fear it, pure and simply, because of the economics of football.

Now Barry, try and talk some sense, free of contradictions.

One more thing, you lived through the glory days of the 80s didnt you?

I also love the fact that you say we do not need some foreign manager with an exotic accent, and then refer in the next sentence to Swansea's appointment of Laudrup...

Brent Stephens
486 Posted 03/12/2012 at 18:56:32
Well put, Jim.
Trevor Lynes
491 Posted 03/12/2012 at 19:06:12
This article has provoked a great response... some for and some against.

I have said for ages that we need to re-invest the money that we have saved by transferring out most of our highest earners, but we have not given enough money to DM to be able to sustain the success of our team.

We are playing far better football than any team we have fielded since the 60s. Other teams since then at best have been ultra competitive and physical but lacking in real ability. Let's face it, we were bloody awful to watch and got by with spoiling tactics and tenacity.

I was certainly not happy with the team that finished 4th some years ago, we actually had a negative goal difference and relied on set pieces to score.

DM now has a small squad who play decent football and a first team when fit to match any other side in the league. Unfortunately we cannot rotate players or cover injuries without a lowering of standards. Every team needs a strong bench and competition for places. If Moyes gets no money then his only options are to stay anyway and put up with the situation and probable hollow promises, or resign!!

I believe Moyes is an honest person and if he makes a decision then he will stick to it. BK has only provided funds when absolutely pressurised and I believe his ambitions are the 40 points a season. If we get more and finish in the top ten, then that's his idea of success.

Moyes is in a stronger position than in other years because the team he has built is at last pleasing on the eye and attracts praise. He sees the chance to really make Everton a realistic challenge for honours side and wants to keep his squad and add to it. Now it's up to BK to show some ambition and back the manager.

Brian Harrison
492 Posted 03/12/2012 at 19:13:43
Jim Knightley

Couldn't have put it any better, I think from other posts by Barry I actually thinks he lives abroad so probably doesn't attend the games anymore. I think he still thinks of Everton in their glory years, when with the help of Sir John Moores we could outspend most clubs.

I was lucky enough to have lived through that period, going back to Carey and Catterick and all those that followed and seeing some truly great players. But I think if Moyes had the same financial backing as Catterick and Kendal in his first spell then I think Moyes could have matched their records.

Joe McMahon
493 Posted 03/12/2012 at 19:19:40
Barry, I agree with some thing you say (over time). But I think our real problems lie with our Owner, he has held us back.

You talk about Keegan's Newcastle in the mid 90s. They spent £15M on Alan Shearer in 1996, we still haven't been able to spend anything like that on a player to date. The Fro was €15M. That Newcastle side also won nothing.

I'm not 100% behind Moyes, but some credit has to be given as we do finish in the top 10 every season, whilst the relegated clubs always outspend us (on the whole). What I want is a new manager and new Chairman/owner, but I do worry about a new manager with the current Chairman, who lets face it is here to stay.

Yes, I admire Martinez and Laudrup, but i'm not sure they would be right for us with so little to spend? On saying that, Michu was £2M — so what do I know?
Barry Rathbone
495 Posted 03/12/2012 at 19:28:38
Brent, I want someone who'll defy the odds and, contrary to what you and others think, I don't think Moyes does that; he's a straight line man who, given a pot of paint and a brush, will paint a wall but he lacks the wit to paint a picture.

Jim, you wasted a lot of time on something I didn't say and I just couldn't read the rest because you lost credibility with the opening guff.

Brian, that's your opinion and I think you're dead wrong but unless he ships out we'll never know. The question is has he got the balls to do it or is his well paid pipe-and-slippers existence too comfy to give up.

Barry Rathbone
497 Posted 03/12/2012 at 19:44:24
Joe, Shearer come late, in fact it was when Keegan began to spend big money he lost it - might be a moral in that.
Jim Knightley
498 Posted 03/12/2012 at 20:18:28
Brilliant Barry...instead of responding to my comments, you choose to ignore them....you really are a big man.

And btw, when you state 'Jim, who are these top managers? Mourinho who's just about to get run out of Madrid'.... then you imply you don't think Mourinho is a good manager.

Nick Entwistle
501 Posted 03/12/2012 at 20:33:15
Problem of the human mind is that, when a viewpoint persists for so long, it becomes part of the individual's identity and the ego refuses to be wronged in the face of say, changed circumstance, objectivity or development.

The entrenched viewpoints are retained as the investment in self that the original opinion holds is large, and to change mind is to admit everything you stood for is now redundant – which the ego stands guard against.

Yet, when identity and then ego are dismissed, fresh viewpoints that in the least can be considered grows perspective and invigorates the soul...

Oh, get the fuck out of here Barry, Moyes is God!
Ian Bennett
502 Posted 03/12/2012 at 20:22:08
I too fancy that Moyes could go to Arsenal. Fanciful? Not really. Redknapp was supposedly plum for England, and long linked for Chelsea... Where did he end up? Yep: QPR. Football management defies logic: Pardew failed at Southampton, Di Matteo failed at West Brom, Roy at Liverpool, and what happens next... Plum job, plum job, and – quick rebuild – plum job.

Yes, Moyes is phenomenally well remunerated, and perhaps Everton is attractive: however, our track record of hiring managers is awful, so does the "4th most" thing count? Not a carrot. The pay may entice some, but probably the wrong ones, whilst the continued 'sell to buy' is going to limit appeal.

Robson wasn't tempted, nor ex-legend Andy Gray — Christ, why else do you think we ended up with a rookie like Moyes in the beginning? Easy, not a chance. The main reason Everton look attractive is what Moyes has done of rebuilding a club fucked since its spectacular fall from grace (Joe Royle apart... for 18 months; Joe lasted from Nov 1994 to March 1997, a sad blink of an eye).

My manager pick is Hiddink. Moyes failed to pick up the cup without his three best players injured, playing a top class side that had nothing else to play for but the cup. I don't really understand why the mob didn't throw his name in years ago instead of pissing around with the great and the good of Holloway and Co.

Brent Stephens
503 Posted 03/12/2012 at 20:53:53
Barry, stop jumping about – you haven't answered my query on #484 yet (if you can'y grasp it, I'm not going to spell it out for you yet again).

You now jump to "Brent, I want someone who'll defy the odds and, contrary to what you and others think, I don't think Moyes does that".

How do you know whether I think Moyes defies the odds? I haven't commented on that, and I don't think anybody else has put it in those terms. You're just setting up straw men.

Kevin Tully
504 Posted 03/12/2012 at 21:17:05
Well gents, the proof is in the pudding. He hasn't signed a contract yet, so any "big" clubs who are after Mr Moyes will have already been in contact with his agent.

It will be interesting, and a clear message of how he is perceived outside of Everton by the footballing world.

If he leaves this summer, where do posters think he will go? Surely, after all he has achieved there must be offers from all over the world?

Barry Rathbone
505 Posted 03/12/2012 at 21:31:29
Jim, thanks for that I wouldn't go as far as brilliant but if the cap fits n'all.

Nick, so Moyes is God eh? .... only a matter of time wasn't it? marvellous stuff.

Brent, are you ok mate you seem to be taking yourself seriously.

To help you along because reading between the lines seems not your strongest suit, imo it's time for a change.

So if Moyes hasn't signed his contract by 10:30 in the morning and gone on Sky Sports to apologise for fucking us around, I think he should be sacked and his tracksuit burnt in a pyre on the centre circle at GP.

Now, anything else you're not sure of?

Paul Kelly
514 Posted 04/12/2012 at 00:39:35
Nick (#501) — "Get the fuck out of here, Barry — Moyes is God"

What fucking bible have you been reading from?

Anto Byrne
522 Posted 04/12/2012 at 05:15:22
My prediction for 2013 is David Moyes goes to Man Utd and my reasoning is simple: he can produce the football in a style they would demand. He is a very good manager and knows a good footballer when he sees one.

I reckon Man Utd will win the league with 4-5 game to go and Fergie will retire upstairs. Moyes will be the manager and Fergie the mentor. If the shit hits the fan well there is a go-to man. He will undoubtedly steer us into the top four – maybe even third.
Eric Myles
523 Posted 04/12/2012 at 05:00:03
Brian #469, didn't Gazza and Ginola come free and according to Walter the only reason he got them was 'cos the Club was near bankrupt and he needed bodies and that was all he could get.

If Moyes is after a big payday as Kevin suggests surely he'll go to Chelsea where he'll get 5 years' compo for only half a season's work before he's sacked.

Drew O'Neall
528 Posted 04/12/2012 at 07:43:54
Kevin 504 - The expression is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Nothing to do with the OP it just triggers my OCD when people say "Well, the proof is in the pudding" — What the fuck is that even supposed to mean?!

Derek Thomas
530 Posted 04/12/2012 at 07:11:40

1) Moyes will stay.

2) Moyes will walk.

3) If he does, it won't be to Arsenal.

4) If he does walk, he will just chill and around November someone will tempt him to a job; whereever, he will take it as he will have had 6 months off and be climbing the walls.

Poll please.

Gavin Ramejkis
531 Posted 04/12/2012 at 08:16:45
Cue the excuses from the Church of the Latter Day Gingers now that old Whiskey Nose has admitted Mourinho could be his replacement.
Kevin Elliott
532 Posted 04/12/2012 at 07:25:21

Carry on with the humour. There are too many serious /miserable fuckers on here.

As for Moyes. He is putting himself in the shop window. No other reason for stalling on his new contract.
Ciarán McGlone
540 Posted 04/12/2012 at 09:16:51
Does Moyes actually have a 'negotiating position' considering his moralising rant about 20% pay cuts?

Surely this is the end game for such a paragon of virtue?

Kevin Tully
541 Posted 04/12/2012 at 09:34:11
Kevin #532, stop talking sense and be glad he chose us. We'd be in the Conference now if it wasn't for Moyes!

Gavin - every football supporter who has never been to a game reckons he is nailed on to be the next Man Utd manager. Surely the biggest load of tripe that we will ever have to endure.

He wasn't even given an interview for the Spurs job after tarting himself on the BBC at the Euros.

I am fascinated to hear from the Latter Day Gingers as to what job he is nailed on to be offered if he leaves the blues.

Come on guys – if he is as good as some make out, what massive job awaits the Moyestro?

Eugene Ruane
542 Posted 04/12/2012 at 10:30:48
Kevin (541) – What job?

Well I was on an 81 last week heard a Scots woman on her mobile:–

"Whit wit the bairns growin' up and leavin' the nest and aw, there's nae reason tae hang aboot here. And juss between you and me, there's a PE teacher's post at St Frown's 6th form Presbyterian College in Peebles that he's VERY interested in. Personally, I'd be delighted to get awa' fae your man aff Coronation Street. David says he's no as bad as folk make oot but he's no t' be trusted and giz me the creeps."

(nb: When I say 'I heard', sometimes these things come to me in...voices).

Ben Jones
543 Posted 04/12/2012 at 11:19:06
And the next amazing manager we can replace Moyes with is...
errrmmmmm..... Martinez?
Drew O'Neall
544 Posted 04/12/2012 at 11:58:04
Eugene – can I have a job in your imaginareum?
Tony J Williams
545 Posted 04/12/2012 at 12:14:21
Brilliant, Fellaini pretty much states that he will fuck us off if we don't meet his expectations and loads on here back him and call him ambitious. Moyes pretty much does the same and he is lambasted by the mob.

Kevin your question on 541 is the same pointless type of question when the Moyes supporter ask who will take over from him?

We have no idea if any teams have approached him, as we have no idea as to whether Bill has made any sneaky enquiries about any other managers.

The fact that he is near to the end of his contract is irrelevant to how we play. They are professional footballers getting overpaid to play togger, why would they give a toss as to whether he has signed his contract or not?

Eugene Ruane
547 Posted 04/12/2012 at 12:19:49
Tony (545), you ask..

"They are professional footballers getting overpaid to play togger, why would they give a toss as to whether he has signed his contract or not?"

Well because they are being overpaid (indirectly) by HIM.

Or to put it another way, someone else comes in and maybe their days of being overpaid are over.

If I was Phil Neville (just to choose a name at random), I'd be VERY interested in whether Moyes signed (or is going to sign) or not.

As for the difference between Fellaini and Moyes, Fellaini WILL go, Moyes won't.

Matt Traynor
548 Posted 04/12/2012 at 12:12:18
As someone who is hoping for the end of the reign of the biggest charlatan ever, I'm quietly hoping Moyes does go.

But it's not going to happen.

Tony J Williams
549 Posted 04/12/2012 at 12:47:31
Eugene, if we had a great bench and good squad, I would imagine that they would be worried. If all our players are fit, most of us would be able top pick the team that would start.

I have often said that if I was Moyes I would have skedaddled a long time ago, but he actually managed to get some money to buy players for the first time in 3 years and lo and behold, we start playing better footy.

He will go if he wants to, he is set for life and doesn't need another job. He is a millionnaire a few times over so he is safe and so are his kids. he doesn't need to work.

Eugene Ruane
550 Posted 04/12/2012 at 12:52:53
Tony (545) - It's a funny thing about millionaires, most of them absolutely COULD pack in work but many never do.

They continue doing whatever it is they do, because it is the job, rather than the money, that provides them with their adrenalin rush.

You say...

"He will go if he wants to, he is set for life and doesn't need another job. He is a millionaire a few times over so he is safe and so are his kids. he doesn't need to work".

True, but he WON'T want to, because if ever I've seen a man who (despite his millions) couldn't/wouldn't pack in 'work', it's Moyes.

With what we've learned about him over the past 10 years, we know that he is obsessed with football/coaching/scouting etc.

We also know that he is the last person (nb: on the planet) who is going to spend 25 years pissing money away in clubs or on flash cars and/or on regular trips to Vegas or Martinique.

His clothes look like Morag buys them at 'Man at C&A', his watch isn't the size of a dinner plate, there's no chunky chains or bracelets – what's he going to spend his millions on?

Really, millionaire or not, what (else) would he do with without football?

My opinion is that, despite his money, David Moyes NEEDS a manager/coaches job in football like the rest of us need oxygen and it is that which will prevent him leaving Everton.

Joe McParland
704 Posted 05/12/2012 at 14:00:08
Eugene @ 550 "if ever I've seen a man who (despite his millions) couldn't/wouldn't pack in 'work', it's Moyes"

Does this not remind you of a certain red wine drinking manager along the East Lancs Road?

Brian Harrison
713 Posted 05/12/2012 at 16:51:56
Seeing we are talking about perceptions, I hear today that West Ham have been awarded the preferred bidders status for the Olympic Stadium. Now that is really going to change their status and I wonder what people think about clubs having new grounds built for them by the taxpayer.

Man City were a club going nowhere till the Commonwealth Games were held in Manchester, allowing them to move into a brand new stadium for a peppercorn rate. This made them a very attractive proposition, and as they say the rest is history. Now it looks like West Ham a typical yoyo club will also benefit form inheriting a new stadium, no doubt Gold and Sullivan will make the most of this opportunity. Neither club has had to do anything but be in the right place at the right time, so I envisage in a couple of years with the amount of corporate hospitality boxes at the Olympic stadium, West Ham will be competing at a level they couldn't have dreamed of 5 years ago.

James Flynn
808 Posted 06/12/2012 at 22:06:10
Matt (548) - As it appears Moyes is leaving (Unless Green's new half billion is intended to take control of the Club), what manager do you see moving us up the Table?

Me, I want Moyes to stay and hope our billionaire Green is about to provide Moyes some reasonable funding. But accepting, which I do, this "charlatan" is done at Goodison come May, who next in your opinion? I'm curious.

How about Bruce Arena? He produced multiple-title winning teams here in DC and in Los Angeles. Operating under a salary budget less than the EPL by orders of magnitude, and is a manager in the England sense of the word.

Moyes out, Arena in, Matt. What do you think? Or just you don't care as long as Moyes is out?

James Flynn
812 Posted 06/12/2012 at 22:42:13
Brian (713) - As long as we acknowlege nothing in West Ham matches Goodison Park. The Old Girl doesn't need to go. She only needs attention paid to her. And Green to invest chump change of his new half-billion into her facelift.

Why some new place when going to Goodison Park is a DNA strand in half of people in one of the world's major cities?

Andy Crooks
816 Posted 06/12/2012 at 23:42:24
Eugene (#550 — if you knew the first thing about fashion, which you obviously don't, you would realise that Mr Moyes's clothes are purchased from the Edinburgh Woollen Mill. "Man at C and A"??!?
Ernie Baywood
825 Posted 07/12/2012 at 05:41:52
A quick note on officialdom. While we have been stiffed by the refs a fair bit on big decisions I've seen a bit of a change. We seem to be getting a few more 50/50s and even Fellaini is getting a pretty fair run with the refs.

I believe that is due to the perception that we are a fair team that tries to play football, isn't in the business of merely stopping the opposition, and is a genuine contender.

Others might disagree but that's the way I'm seeing it.

Steven Telford
414 Posted 10/12/2012 at 18:23:11
Some people are presuming that his negations are to do with his own salary, but I would say Moyes’s negations are less about his own salary and more about transfer kitty. We have not just great manger but also really decent guy.
Steven Telford
416 Posted 10/12/2012 at 18:51:04
Looking at some of the comments that pop up on the forum, it seems to me that some of our own supporters would actually disappointed to see Moyes succeed – it’s like they would receive more gratification from him failing than they would from Everton succeeding under his stewardship, because it would justify their own opinion.

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