Why have Everton missed out on a top four spot this season?

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Why have we missed out on a top four slot questionnaire? I have recently read numerous comments across various websites suggesting why we have missed out, on a top four finish (although we technically haven’t it is highly unlikely).

Therefore, I put together a brief questionnaire on SurveyMonkey (literally just a couple of questions) to ask other Blues for their opinions. I will leave it up for a few days before posting my results.

I just wanted to know what the consensus of opinion was amongst the majority of blues out there.

Chris Regan, Skelmersdale     Posted 24/04/2013 at 18:01:00

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Reader Comments

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Patrick Murphy
558 Posted 24/04/2013 at 22:23:11
A combination of things, the defence never really showed up until March — the midfield was too weak for most of the season – not a striker at the club worthy of the name (although Jelavic will still come good but maybe not at Everton). Moyes should have demanded that we strengthened in January but his contract negotiations probably got in the way of him pushing for it.
David Hallwood
559 Posted 24/04/2013 at 22:37:34
Too many draws when we were playing well and dominating teams, which was partly as a result of not having enough goals in the team to really kill the opposition off,

Not enough mental toughness to win ugly a la Man U; no matter how avarage they play always have the ability to get past the line.

Paul Nicholls
562 Posted 24/04/2013 at 22:57:40
Erm, because clubs above us have got better players....
Bobby Thomas
563 Posted 24/04/2013 at 22:40:48
Central midfielder and a striker.

Imagine us with a top class center mid with presence, mobility & who can play, and lets say someone like Yakubu pre achillies or Demba Ba up top. Someone who can net 20 from lone striker.

Top four no problem.

However glass ceiling rules are in place and the necessary increase in transfer budget and wages isn't in our scope the way we operate.

The big miss is the 15- 20 league goals man. "He" is gold dust and would turn some of those draws into wins. They can turn an indifferent performance into 3 points and get you out of jail. Thats why, in the main, they cost. Unless there is a miracle free knocking about.

As it stands we finish about where we should. You basically need 70 points to finish in the top 4 and we just don't quite have enough.

Derek Thomas
565 Posted 24/04/2013 at 22:57:47
For the want of a ( January ) nail the kingdom was lost.

Why? 14 draws thats why.

Some of the draws were down to Reffs, some down to mistakes, some were due to sitting back on a lead, some were just in the shit happens catagory.

But the real reason, especially in the 2nd half of the season was lack of real investment in the last 2 windows.

14 draws, win say 4, not a lot in the grand scheme of things and we are up there. Win only 2, Vs Spurs and Arsenal and thats a net gain of 8 points and it's all in our own hands.

All for the want of a nail....it was that close, Kenwight, that close.

Pat Campbell
570 Posted 24/04/2013 at 23:23:48
In reply to Patrick...I said at the time that I was not convinced about Jelavic and sadly that has been proved to be correct. Yes the defense were not as good as last season but as Bobby above says if we had to have a striker who scores at least 20 goals a season we maybe no we would be in a champions league spot....watched Lewandoski tonight and boy can he finish and the ball sticks to him....also for all the detractors of Moyes, get a grip....he has brought the club forward from the dark days....REMEMBER.....the problem is money to invest in the team....
Patrick Murphy
571 Posted 24/04/2013 at 23:40:00
Pat and Lewandoski wasn't even as expensive as Jelavic, £3.5 million quid well spent.

I know that Moyes has done a good job, but I wonder what a manager with the vision of Dortmund's could have done.

Phil Davies
574 Posted 25/04/2013 at 00:19:37
Moyes making Jelavic work the wings to accommodate Fellaini in the middle, only having 1 left back and 3 central defenders with any experience, only having 1 goalkeeper, a lack of trust in youth, too much trust in favourite players, lack of investment when it was desperately needed, the occasional bad ref decision, and simply the squad isn't good enough.
Noel Early
576 Posted 25/04/2013 at 00:35:23
Norwich home and away 5 pts dropped by sitting back; Reading away missed chances 3 pts dropped. Just not strong enough in key areas, Jelavic having a nightmare season. Looks highly likely Fellaini will be sold say £26m.

Three areas I would like strenghtened:

1. Goalkeeper. Jack Butland should have been bought but I'd settle for McCarthy from Reading.
2. Midfielder. James McCarthy of Wigan – good player, I like him a lot. Also, I would like Honda from Moscow but I don't think this is a runner as he is likely to stay in Russia until January when his contract runs out so wages will likely be a stumbling block.
3. Forward. We need a proven goalscorer. I can likely see us settling for Gary Hooper from Celtic who I don't think is good enough.

Tim Jones
585 Posted 25/04/2013 at 03:36:23
Why we never got 4th powder puff Osman 'don't give a fuck' Pienaar and Felliani, hesitant Howard ineffectual Heitinger and Naismith on the pitch virtually every game Oh and Neville.
Where is Entwistle's post though on a thread just made for him, he always talks a good 'we going to do it' he has been strangely silent of late.
Tim Jones
586 Posted 25/04/2013 at 03:42:34
But the biggest reason of course is timid, safety first, defensive,tactically inept, big game bottling Dour Davey.
Paul Ferry
588 Posted 25/04/2013 at 04:09:57
14 draws - not holding onto leads - silly or late subs - last window - 14 draws - late late goals - gaffer's line ups and set ups now and then - 14 draws - Roundy's drawings - Osman MIA - dried up Jelly - 14 draws - gaffer using his tried and trusted faves - little belief in youth - 14 draws - ex Skip Pip (God that sounds good) passing to the other team - Richard Dodd - Dickie Dahling luvvy heart in the boys pen Palladium BK not spending a single spond of his own deep pockets - 14 draws - other teams above us have deeper squads and are better than us - Gordon Lee (why not?) - Nick Entwistle - 14 draws - not keeping possession - giving the ball away all the time - the fanatical rabid baby-eating MOB on ToffeeWeb - 14 draws - Thatcher - Oveido benched - too often gaffer shows inability to react to game as it unfolds - missed chances, misplaced passes, goalie errors, silly errors (in due deference to the Dodd/Entwistle school of thought) - 14 draws
Paul Ferry
589 Posted 25/04/2013 at 04:44:24
Nice one Tim - 585 - Where is Entwistle's post though on a thread just made for him, he always talks a good 'we going to do it' he has been strangely silent of late.
John Ford
592 Posted 25/04/2013 at 06:31:59
It's the economy stupid!
Paul Andrews
593 Posted 25/04/2013 at 06:40:15
Because the manager is reluctant to go for it.Scared to risk a defeat by going for a win.Hence the 14 draws.
Also because of the imbalanced squad he has after 11 years in the making.
John Ford
594 Posted 25/04/2013 at 06:34:03
Someone show me the managers who finish top four on anything like our budget? Didn't think so. Moyes is infuriating at times but he gets better results over a season than most. Yeh yeh it's shit boring but money remains the single biggest determinant of success.

The Arsenal game highlighted this for me. A tight game and in the last quarter they bring on Podolski, Walcottt and Chamberlain. It's the same every time we step onto the pitch, particularly against the better teams. How are we to compete with that? To gunfights we bring sticks. There's no level playing field here and don't assume it will ever change.

Fucking January. Just when we needed it most we brought in no-one. What a let down .

Mike Green
596 Posted 25/04/2013 at 06:50:31
Have to agree with virtually all the posts above.

Draws are killers. We've drawn more away from home than any other team, and at 14 are joint highest with Norwich. Which is fine, providing you win all your other games... like Reading.... or Southampton.... or maybe away at the Sky 4.

When we made Champions League in 2004-5 we drew 7 games, the least in Moyes tenure.

The main reason why is lack of goals and conceding stupid goals. This isn't down to lack of decent players - those goals are in Jelavic, so why have they dried up? Our lot can defend too so why the lapse in form / concentration for too many games this season.

All roads lead, eventually, to Moyes and then finally to Kenwright.

Paul Gladwell
597 Posted 25/04/2013 at 06:57:57
We are getting £25m extra sky money soon plus no doubt selling Fellaini for a similar amount and throw in Heitinga possibly too ,in January billy bull should have used this guaranteed money as a safe net to spend a quarter of what we are getting which could have gotten us a striker to turn those draws into wins, instead we had to make do with believing Jelavic will come good and that Anichebe is turning a corner because he has started to work like a footballer should do every other game.
Gavin Ramejkis
598 Posted 25/04/2013 at 07:12:42
Any new money coming in will be out to the Green cough cough BVI payday loans and player wages
James Stewart
603 Posted 25/04/2013 at 08:13:10
We didn't strengthen in January when we had a realistic chance of a top 4 spot and paid the price. Simple as.
Phil Roberts
606 Posted 25/04/2013 at 08:50:18
We never had a chance of 4th in January - we had all our tough games to come. We had an easy set of fixtures in the first half of the season, top sides at home, bottom sides away. It was a false position.

We never seriously outperformed our 2011-12 campaign in the first half, so were never going to do the same in the 2nd half.

Brent Stephens
611 Posted 25/04/2013 at 09:47:30
Timpeter # 585 "Where is Entwistle's post though on a thread just made for him, he always talks a good 'we going to do it' he has been strangely silent of late".

A thread just made for Timpeter, as his #586 cut and paste from other posts demonstrates!

Chris Leyland
612 Posted 25/04/2013 at 09:47:47
Phil I see your point but..... We have thusfar played 4 of those top sides away fixtures, drawn 3 and lost only once - to the champions. As we took 10 points off the same 4 sides in the corresponding home fixtures then draws away to the top sides aren't actually bad results in that context. That is 13 points from the completed fixtures of 4 of the top 5 sides with Chelsea and the Shite away to come to complete the set of 'top' fixtures. Our problem this season doesn't seem to be in these fixtures but others such as 1 point from 2 games against Norwich. Losses to poor sides like Reading and Sunderland and far too many draws in games we have dominated: Newcastle home Fulham away to name but 2.
Chris Fisher
617 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:07:40
Way too many draws when we should have won. Ones that spring to mind straight away are Norwich at Home, Fulham Away, Spurs Away, Newcastle Home, Southampton Away. If we had of won those games instead of dropping points unnecessarily, we would now have 66 points.
Alex Foxx
618 Posted 25/04/2013 at 09:40:20
The reason there are 5 times ahead of us is because of the huge amounts of money they are able to spend in comparison to us. It's a question of resources. If they have a misfiring striker, then they can afford to drop him immediately and bring in someone slightly better than Victor Anichebe.

That said, Chelsea's underperformance this season definitely gave us a chance of cracking the top 4 this time around. Too many draws cost us - and those draws were the result of some woeful defending. We've never looked more shaky at the back during Moyes' era. Ageing central defenders? Increasingly attack-minded wing-backs? Howard losing it?

Whatever the cause, there was a month long period sometime after new year where we looked like we'd concede every time the opposition swung in a cross. It cost us too many points, and we couldn't quite pull it back.

Alex Foxx
619 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:19:00
I obviously meant '5 teams ahead of us' - though they probably do have 5 times the money too...
Andrew Ellams
620 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:27:09
Budget doesn't wash this season because it's the results against the likes of Reading, Norwich, WBA etc. that have damaged us most.
Sam Hoare
621 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:30:37
There are many answers. Comfortably the most accurate is money. Money, money, money. Sad but true.
Tony Cheek
622 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:30:23
Good idea Chris, but don't understand the "fuck off Neville" bit.....necessary, I think not! Nobodys favourite, but let it go, he is, as we all know, going.
Denis Richardson
625 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:42:30
Bill Kenwright & co and David Moyes. The former for not sorting out better finances for the club and the latter because safety first tactics will only get you so far.

A pot of gold + David Moyes = no CL football

No cash + Mourinho/Klopp/Guadiola = no CL football

Both corporate and team management need to change for us to move forward.

Richard Dodd
626 Posted 25/04/2013 at 10:43:35
The very fact that this question can be posed indicates the strides we have made under David Moyes.In the first 10 years of the Prem it would be `How did we avoid relegation this season?`
The value of this man will only be recognised when he is no longer with us.

PS. To answer the question.....because Jelavic has had a crap season and we drew so many games we should have won.

Tim Jones
629 Posted 25/04/2013 at 11:17:55
Brent Stephens # 611 and the infantile stalker continues to stalk.
Steven May
630 Posted 25/04/2013 at 11:19:53
Failure of the board & senior managers to secure new players for the squad during the January transfer window - Yes
David Moyes’ not signing a new contract has affected the squad -don't think so
David Moyes’ tactics (formation, substitutions, loyalty to players such as Fuck off Neville) - (why so personal?) - of course but not always. I suspect the tactics has won as many point as they have lost.
Player errors – Johnny Heitinga (against Villa) and Fuck off Neville (every time he took a breath) - Well of course, but how many errors from other teams have won us points.
A small squad unable to cover for injuries - Yes
A small squad unable to rest tired players - Yes
Team preparation resulting in losses to teams such as Reading and Sunderland - don't know but I suspect not.
The form of some players such as Jelavic (lack of goals) - of course but wouldn't be a problem if the squad had more depth
Other teams have far more resources than Everton - of course
Refereeing decisions went against us - some did and some went for us but the ones that go against us always seem more significant
Too many draws (likely to be a symptom of some of the options above) - stating the mathematically obvious
Fixture listing and congestion (A fat spanish waiter thought this was very important) - given our lack of success in the cups and the lack of Europe, no
Brent Stephens
632 Posted 25/04/2013 at 11:48:08
Timpeter #629. "# 611 and the infantile stalker continues to stalk".

You don't see the irony?! You stalked Nick first!:
"Where is Entwistle's post though on a thread just made for him".

Kevin Tully
635 Posted 25/04/2013 at 12:05:57
We are 17 goals shy of 4th spot looking at G.D. as a stand alone stat. That is a hell of a lot of goals short of the required standard.

On the other hand, we are only 4 goals short of C.L. spot, if we would have turned 4 draws into wins = 8 extra points.

Jelavic was an unknown quantity last season, of course he was going to marked more tightly this season, and he definitely spends too much time out of the box.

The Pienaar-Baines axis has been well sussed, I can't believe it took opposing managers so long to work it out! Laudrup had them well shackled during our 0-0 at home to Swansea - they haven't clicked since.

Small squad was going to come into play at some point, but playing regularly with the same team should be an advantage as well.

Refusal to bring in the likes of Oviedo and Barkley when Pienaar & Neville were dogshit has hampered our chances.

No support for new signings has been the main factor, two decent players could have helped us get over the line, and injected a fresh impetus throughout the whole club.

This Board have no ambition but to make a killing one day. 6th/7th will do nicely, as long as Sky and season ticket money keep the wolf from the door - job done as far as they are concerned.

Robbie Muldoon
636 Posted 25/04/2013 at 12:34:40
Because we are just a little bit short on squad and consistency and don't have the right mentality when approaching important games. Fix all them, and we're going places. Up to you Bill, hahahahaha
Damian Kelly
638 Posted 25/04/2013 at 12:41:30
Change of question - how have we got so close to a top 4 place this season? Because the top 5 (with exception of man u) + RS have all underperformed.
Agree with a lot of comments above re mistakes from Moyes and players but if we'd done everything right, under current circumstances, I think we could have been maybe 10- 20% better. Most of the teams above us could have been 30-50% better - we only got close because they had poor seasons.
Sure, criticise Moyes for his mistakes but if he hadn't made them I don't think it would actually make that much difference
Chris Regan
639 Posted 25/04/2013 at 12:53:04
Nick #622 Fair point, I just don't like the player. Nothing to do with him being a former Man U player either.

Due to the number of respondents the survey is closed. Thanks for the feedback, although not the insults some people left in the comments box.

I will analyse the results and post them later today or tomorrow.

Steavey Buckley
641 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:07:20
Why have Everton missed out on a top 4 finish? Simply, Jelavic turned into another Stuart Barlow, who also could not hit a barn door.
Mike Powell
645 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:13:33
The squad is too small; our first eleven are a match for anyone in the Prem but, if we get a few injuries, then we struggle.
Ross Edwards
646 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:09:59
A number of reasons, BK for not providing funds to strenghen in January, the players putting in poor performances like Pienaar and Osman recently, the strikers not scroing enough and Jela suddenly forgetting how to score a goal, but I think our biggest reason is Moyes and his cautious, negative, inept tactics which have cost us so many points this season, sitting back at 1-0 against Fulham, Reading, Norwich, dropping Barkley our only bright player v Arsenal to put Osman in who has done nothing for 4 games against Sunderland, continually putting Naismith on despite being the worst player I have ever seen in a Blues shirt, sticking with favourites like Pienaar week after week despite him putting in the worst performance I have seen in an Everton player for a long time, and deciding to hold his contract talks, holding us to ransom so he can get a better deal or another club.
And now he lowers his expectations and says we are going for 5th, which we won't even we'll only just hold on to 6th place or if we lose to the RS and Chelsea, we'll drop to 7th.
We will never win anything while this man is manager. If it looks like in this current era of football that we can't win anything why can't we get Poyet or Rijkaard in and get some good football, as hoofball to Vic every week makes watching us complete tedium.
Danny Jones
648 Posted 25/04/2013 at 12:58:31
Money. It's the beginning and the end of any discussion like this.

If there was more money we would have more and better players.

Moyes does what he can with what he has and, in my opinion, does it very well. Of course it's frustrating at times and he is certainly not above criticism but moaning on about individuals, tactics and attitude doesn't really wash with me as, however you cut it, it all comes back to money.

Now, why we haven't got money is another question.

Ryan Holroyd
656 Posted 25/04/2013 at 13:47:43
How can it ALL be about money? Dortmund's team cost less than ours and has a smaller wage bill.

It's not all about money. Money didn't play a part when we lost to Wigan at home, draws with Norwich, QPR, losses to Norwich, Reading.

Danny Jones
660 Posted 25/04/2013 at 14:02:41
You have a point but Dortmund don't play in our league so it's not really comparable. Good side though.

Generally, more and better players means more games won. There will always be results that don't fit. I expect Man Utd didn't think that they should have lost to Everton. It happens. The more money you have, the more players you have of an higher quality, the more you win.

I don't think it is all about money but it can't be ignored. It's at the heart of every discussion like this. If you have a go at Neville, for instance, if we had more money and more and better players he wouldn't be on the field.


James Stewart
662 Posted 25/04/2013 at 14:15:59
@656 Correct. And the point further above about us not playing the top sides away put us in a false position is rubbish. We have a better record against the top sides than the likes of Norwich and Reading so how does that work?

Giving youth a real chance and picking players up young like we did with Coleman is the only way we will get out of the financial mess we are in. Blowing 15m on one player is not. I would have no problem cashing in on the likes of Fellaini if there was a long term plan but sadly there isn't

Damian Kelly
664 Posted 25/04/2013 at 14:21:34
Dortmund are second biggest team in their league - regularly get 70000 crowd and therefore get pick of best german players behind bayern - and the german talent pool is better than pretty much every other country at the moment which is why they are currently thriving in europe.
Brian Cleveland
704 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:20:36
Went to do the survey and got "This survey is currently closed. Please contact the author of this survey for further assistance."

Closed already?

Barry Rathbone
705 Posted 25/04/2013 at 15:43:28
We didn't get 4th because we're happy with 7th/8th.

Under Moyes this club squanders opportunities left right and centre without breaking sweat. The familiar money excuse will get parrotted as per but THIS seasons circumstances left the door wide open.

Only Utd and City turned up this year with the rest in transition - if ever 10 yrs of stability should have born fruit this was it.

Predictably and entirely in line with previous form our star striker becomes a shadow of his former self ageing favorites keep out promising youth and amidst the usual debacles we gradually drift towards our comfy 7th/8th berth.

We didn't get 4th because no-one at the club has the balls to go for it.

Ross Edwards
709 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:30:51
Well said Barry.
We have built a squad over 10 years good enough to get into the top 4 and every year our chances are squadered every year in the league and the cups by this inept, cautious, dour failure.
It seems the general concensus is that the fans think that 7th/8th is our level and it's thoughts like this from the fans, the board and above all the manager that is holding us back.
John Ford
715 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:37:48
Surely you see the obvious contradiction in that Ross?

The assertion that we're a top four side, that is being held back by the bloke who Put the top four side together is, well.....

Ross Edwards
719 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:43:26
Under a new manager John next season like Poyet or Rijkaard that squad will suit attacking football rather than track back, caution, KITAP1.
Lets bring some excitement to Goodison as it seems we can't win anything, Poyet or Rijkaard in.
Barry Rathbone
722 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:50:50
John Ford, this is the entire disenchantment with Moyes he's a partial manager someone capable of putting together a certain type of squad but rarely getting the best out of them.

The squad doesn't fulfill it's potential for all the reasons even Moyes supporters agree with - favorites, dour, choking - but because many are happy with 7th/8th it's allowed - sheer madness.

Ian Hollingworth
723 Posted 25/04/2013 at 16:51:46
Barry (705) nail on the head. We lacked the bottle to go for it throughout the club with tactics and the January transfer window debacle at the top of the list.
Jellys lack of form is baffling and a large contributor as you need a 15+ goal guaranteed striker .
We will remain in this 7th is great for plucky little Everton mentality as long as Boys pen and now passed along the kop Bill remains in charge
Richard Dodd
731 Posted 25/04/2013 at 17:39:18
No sin in being 7th,Ian.In fact,it`s rather good.Better than being 17th like that other club of historical importance,Aston Villa. And they`ve even got one of the` good guys` as Chairman.
PS it`s rumoured he really wanted to buy Everton.Now look whar we could have achieved!
Sam Hoare
738 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:12:27
Where is this fictional manager who can take a relatively poor club into the top 4 of the Premier League? Does he exist? Has anyone ever done it before? Oh, yeah, that one person with red hair...David something...
Barry Rathbone
741 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:15:54
Richard the sin is knowing we could do better than mooching around 7th/8th without trophies for ever and a day if we told Moyes to shape up or ship out!

Accepting the known Moyes defects and inviting trophyless seasons in perpetuity seems sacrilege to me - there again I take EFC seriously.

Barry Rathbone
744 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:26:26
Sam no-one had 10 yrs prep, inherited a Rooney and total control to compare with.
Brian Hill
745 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:06:14
Barry and Ross, completely correct in my view.

I congratulate Mr Moyes for assembling the squad that he has.

However, I condemn him for making them play the way that they do. Many correspondents have claimed that any new manager would demand millions of pounds to build a new team.

My assertion is that the existing squad is capable of much more than Mr Moyes extracts from it. Therefore, any attack minded incoming coach would release these players from the miserable, defensive mindset that Mr Moyes has instilled into them.

The current group of players is fine, obviously needing a few, younger, additions, but Mr Moyes needs a radical change of mindset. If he is incapable of that then thank you, and goodnight.

Richard Dodd
746 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:44:39
Hope we can preserve all these posts in aspic (it might work!) so we can look back on them in a year`s time when a new magical manager has projected us into the top four.

We might also do so when we`re back in 17th!

Either way, it will be interesting.

John Crossley
747 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:45:54
Moyes is not, and never will be, a big time manager; his players, when it comes to an important game, always fail to perform — and that is down to Moyes.
Ross Edwards
748 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:50:11
Doddy
Unless we go into complete meltdown we have no chance of finished as low as 17th. Your hero has had many many chances now and has completely fallen short with every one
If we get Sparky or McClaren I'll take back this comment but if we get a Rijkaard and he takes less than a year to win something, it will completely wipe out Moyes' legacy, if he ever has one.
Mark Frere
751 Posted 25/04/2013 at 18:35:41
I disagree that our squad should be good enough to finish top 4. All the teams above us have much better squads, even the RS arguably have a better squad, they certainly have better strikers. So we are going to finish 6th or 7th, which if you look at our squad of players that would be the most likely outcome .

Moyes hasn't really underachieved or overachieved with this squad at his disposal. What he has done well with, is getting this squad together with the budget he's had. The board are the ones who are at least 90% of the reason we didn't get top 4

Sam Hoare
756 Posted 25/04/2013 at 19:10:03
No Barry but plenty other managers have had teams with more and comparable money and talented young players but still haven't made it. As for the time he's had, maybe that's because one flirt with relegation aside, there's never been a reason to sack him.
Ross Edwards
760 Posted 25/04/2013 at 19:19:32
Expectations have changed since then Sam. The reason the moron hasn't been fired yet is because we have a shambles of a board and an idiot of a chairman who would never get rid of "Davey Luv" even if we went down to League 1.

If Moyes in his next job goes even 2 years without a trophy he will be given the boot, he will no longer get the security and unlimited support he received with Bill.

If he goes to Chelsea or Schalke next season and fails with more money hopefully the myth will finally be smashed once and for all and finally prove that he is an average, bottling failure.

Barry Rathbone
769 Posted 25/04/2013 at 19:40:52
Ross, you beat me to it that's it exactly ... no ambition... just bloody excuses as why 7th/8th is all we can expect.

The lunatic comment "it doesn't matter he hasn't won a trophy" over Swansea and others killing the money argument just sums it up.

It's virtually a perversion this obsession with defending Moyes.

Richard Dodd
771 Posted 25/04/2013 at 19:46:11
Ross.you sound more ridiculous with each angry post! You may not admire Moyes for what he has done at our club but `moron`? Some might say only a moron would attach that desciption to him.
Ross Edwards
774 Posted 25/04/2013 at 19:55:51
Richard
You could say only a moron would give him undying support and never criticise him despite him not achieving anything of note in 11 years, even after Wigan, and that captitulation at Anfield you defended him to the hilt.
Surely, it must take until we are relegated to League Two until your views on Moyes waver.
I know he is your hero but your policy of Moyes being absolved of any blame for every failure we have every year must surely come to an end soon.
He has had the chances, he's failed, now lets give someone else a go.
Richard Dodd
779 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:07:39
I withdraw.I get my pleasure from supporting my club/team and all the good things about them.The manager is one.
What possible pleasure do you get seeing nothing but ill in them?
My final comment is that any reasonable person would acknowledge that Moyes has done a good job here with severely limited resources.My fear is that whoever fo;;ows him will return the club to the struggling days of yore.
Goodnight.
Brian Waring
780 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:14:39
Not having a manager with tactical nous.
Ross Edwards
781 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:17:15
Good God, Richard "Help Me, Moyes is leaving so the world is going to end soon!" Dodd, we will not go down for God sake!
I admit that DM has done well to get us where we are but he hasn't done enough with the opportunities and the players he has had.
Phil Friedman
782 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:09:04
Last year, we finished 36 points behind the top 2. This year we are 12 points behind City in 2nd. Of course we're disappointed not making CL, but it's real progress any way you look at it. We need a reliable central defender to replace Heitinga, a physical, creative mid (we can't win with Pienaar, Gibson and Ossie on at the same time — too small), and we're kidding ourselves if we think we don't need to replace Jela and Vic to be real contenders.
Ross Edwards
784 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:21:33
It's not good enough to think that we nearly made it. The fact remains that Norwich, Fulham, Reading, WBA and Sunderland have cost us. The first three mentioned were down to Moyes caution and negativity.
Mark Frere
791 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:25:17
Ross Edwards
I can't believe you associate the Fulham game with us been negative.We were on fire in that game, playing some brilliant fast fluent football. We just could'n t finish them off that day and then conceded right at the end
Ross Edwards
795 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:44:08
You mean that we sat back and invited Fulham back into the game.
Peter Askins
800 Posted 25/04/2013 at 20:53:07
Ross, your recollection of this Fulham away game in November is hazy at best !

Please read this BBC report on the game, and show me where it might indicate that "we sat back and invited Fulham back into the game".......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20107627

Yes, we drew a game we should have won, but hey, sh*t happens in football, and you don't always get what you deserve.

Mike Allison
802 Posted 25/04/2013 at 21:02:59
Squad depth.
John Ford
812 Posted 25/04/2013 at 21:27:29
Ross your posts get more absurd. You pick on specific games and completely ignore the blindingly obvious context for Moyes's work. You suggest he's thrown away points but yet fail to acknowledge he consistently amasses more points than any manager outside of the money clubs.

And you continue to contradict yourself. I'll say it again — the assertion that we're a top four side, being held back by the very bloke who put the top four side together, is just bonkers...

Sean Patton
814 Posted 25/04/2013 at 21:36:31
A combination of reasons as stated above but ultimately the players and the manager have not been good enough.

Ross makes a very pertinent point about Moyes though his supporters should realise that he is only still here because the board have no standards and low expectations not because he has been a roaring success.

Jamie Barlow
815 Posted 25/04/2013 at 21:50:57
Caution and negativity?

11 shots to 10 and 59% possession in the Norwich game.

26 shots to 8 and 61% possession in the Fulham game.

21 shots to 12 and 54% possession in the Reading game.

You're talking nonsense Ross.

Paul Ferry
816 Posted 25/04/2013 at 22:17:55

Doddy went to bed early tonight, hope he's feeling alright.

Pete - 800 - 'But hey, sh*t happens in football, and you don't always get what you deserve'.

Can't disagree with that mate except to add that it has happened three or four times too often this season. Fourteen draws is what, four or five too many?

Michael Kenrick
824 Posted 25/04/2013 at 22:32:56
"The assertion that we're a top four side, being held back by the very bloke who put the top four side together, is just bonkers..."

I'm not so sure... Everyone gives Moyes credit for putting together a good group of players. Many people say the teams he's assembled have gotten better and better over time. So it's not really that unreasonable to expect that this great group of players should be playing better and better football, finishing higher up the tale, getting closer actually winning trophies. "Oh No", says his supporters... "You expect these players to actually play well on a consistent basis, they are not superstars!!"

It's the self-belief of that team and its capabilities where it matters — not at Finch Farm but on the stadium pitch in the heat of the battle — where Moyes has consistently failed and only on the rarest occasions come even close to succeeding.

But his supporters want it both ways: that he has done a great job assembling the team AND he has them playing above and beyond their capabilities (aka "overachieving"), BUT that this is still not and never can be good enough for them to actually achieve anything because of the perennial money gulf.

That's the bit which is truly bonkers. Classic self-serving "knife to a gunfight" mentality that will be the epitaph on Moyes's Goodison memorial.

Kev Prytherch
827 Posted 25/04/2013 at 23:10:52
Jamie - Maybe you could provide some stats for the last 10 minutes of these games, the period that I'm sure Ross is criticising.

John - He has amassed a lot of points and built a good side. The problem is, that after building a side capable of amassing points, he proceeds to revert back to negative 'hold onto the lead' for the latter parts of the game. His constant substitution of Mirallas only serves this point. Good managers use these periods to hit on the counter, Moyes sub's his most likely player to be able to hit on the counter.

Mark - Our squad isn't good enough to finish top 4, but considering we were knocked out of the league cup early doors, our squad wasn't that weak that Moyes couldn't have selectively rested a couple of players here and there. We look tired now and the likes of Osman and Baines (2 good players early on in the season) haven't been rested once. Surely home to some of the weaker teams we could have given people a week off. The best managers do this, not mad rotation but giving a player the occasional rest. Moyes doesn't and we're seeing the effects.

I have no doubt that Moyes sets his players up correctly for a game, but he can't react to situations once they arise on the pitch. When was the last time you can honestly say that Moyes reacted well to an opposition during a game?

Derek Thomas
842 Posted 26/04/2013 at 02:29:26
The key point here that almost everybody picked up on answers the question...14 DRAWS.

They have been caused by a number of things, at least 2 of which you can't do anything about: bad refs and (coz I like a bit of alliteration) bad bounce – I was going to say "Distin moments" but there are 4 or 5 who could and do qualify (you know who you are).

Note to some quoting stats possession etc... possession might be nice to watch, I mean we all appreciate joined up footy, but in the end that and stats aren't as is said, worth a bucket of warm spit.

It's about WINNING... with a side order of glory.

So; things you can maybe do something about short term... sitting back on a 1-goal lead, Mentally and Physically.

Physically is a short-term fix... Oi, You, NO!

Mentally is a medium term fix... getting rid of the KITAP1 philosophy.

That is solved by getting rid of it's prophet Moyes... Before anybody dives in, the team didn't suddenly get the KITAP1 commandment sent down on tablets of toffee from Everton Brow... I have seen no reports of burning bushes around Finch Farm (the odd burning car but no spontaneous combustible shrubs)... Moyes, Pure and simple.

The long-term problem. LMF, bricking it, bricking it on toast vs the usual 4 suspects. No real problem with Spurs: win some lose some, they're just like us really only down in Harringay. Same with City, all fur coat and no knickers, no better than they should be, I remember them in the 3rd Division, ffs etc.

To get rid of that will take mucho positive thinking and it won't, on past form, be coming from Moyes any time soon. He buys into it (memo to Davie: there is no such thing a good draw).

11 years, Davie: Steadied the ship: tick... 7th place trophy via KITAP1: tick. Works well with the smallest squad in Prem, tick... Kenwright keeps me starved of real dosh for more players though, tick. Well done and thank you, Davie, don't spend the £25M you trousered all in the one shop; all the best, drop in and see us when you get settled.

So there you have it: 14 draws, a cautious coach who has one financial hand tied behind his back, who chooses, or so it seems, to use his one free hand (mostly) to wave the players back to defend rather than forward to attack.

Tim Jones
843 Posted 26/04/2013 at 03:44:18
I seem to remember a newly appointed manager one D.Moyes Esq. complaining about the ageing squad he was confronted with and promising a 'Youth Policy' which HE would install which would supply a constant stream of 'first team' players and mean that Everton would only have to dip occasionally in to the Transfer Market.

So no need for the 'lack of money' excuse, Davey boy – where are your 'stream' of YOUTH PLAYERS? — After all, you have had 11 YEARS!!!

Tim Jones
844 Posted 26/04/2013 at 03:53:23
I love the way people punt these stats like 'attempts on goal' when a shot that hits the corner flag is counted the same as one on target. So wise up, lads — if we have so many shots and so few goals, that doesn't necessarily mean we were playing well... It more likely means our players are making useless shots... and that comes back to training — and the MANAGER.
Chris James
871 Posted 26/04/2013 at 08:48:47
1. Lack of Strikers.
2. Lack of Strikers.
3. Terrible Refereeing decisions in key games
4. Lack of Strikers.

For a large part of the season we created more chances than any other club in the league, dominated possession and played attractive football (for instance Fulham was like an exhibition match at times we were so much in charge).
However we simply didn't turn enough of the chances into goals and that meant that we were vulnerable to any poor decision against us turning the game (we had plenty early doors).

At the start of the season this wasn't necessarily anyone's fault.
Jelavic's performance the year before suggested he was the real deal and the likes of Naismith (who actually looked capable of playing football and scoring goals in pre-season), Vic and Vellios as understudies plus Felliani and Mirallas pushing forward suggested we had enough. Once Jelly went bad though it was abundantly clear we needed more firepower.
Moyes should have given Vellios more time and maybe a start or two for McAlney - Jelavic has been a passenger at times, but the main problem lies with not buying someone to reinforce in January.
Hence we're going to finish 6th or 7th and be out of Europe.

Richard Dodd
878 Posted 26/04/2013 at 08:58:51
I have to agree with you on that one, Tim. I have several times questioned why millions is lavished on the Academy and hardly anyone emerges as a serious contender for a first-team place. I suppose the annual turnover (turn out?) of young players happens everywhere but, although all clubs go through the motions of development, the expediency of signing the ready-made article bars the way for the 'homegrowns'.

It's strange that although Davey Moyes talks of being in the Celtic first team at an early age himself, he has always seemed very reluctant to give youth its chance at Everton. Perhaps he believes his own experience did him no favours.

I do feel that, whilst nearly all managers bleat on about having insufficient funds to compete, few are prepared to take a chance on the ones they see grow up.

Chris Regan
892 Posted 26/04/2013 at 11:08:53
Thanks for the feedback. Here are the results and people's comments. Since the survey was Survey Monkey's free option I could only get 100 responses, I wasn't expecting that many to be honest.

The results are easy enougt to follow and I will let you draw your own conclusions.


Why do you think Everton will miss out on a top four finish this season?
Failure of the board & senior managers to secure new players for the squad during the January transfer window 72%

David Moyes’ not signing a new contract has affected the squad 15%

David Moyes’ tactics (formation, substitutions, loyalty to players such as Neville) 42%

Player errors – Johnny Heitinga (against Villa) and Phil Neville (QPR) 18%

A small squad unable to cover for injuries 44%

A small squad unable to rest tired players 44%

Team preparation resulting in losses to teams such as Reading and Sunderland 17%

The form of some players such as Jelavic (lack of goals) 46%

Other teams have far more resources than Everton 40%

Refereeing decisions went against us 16%

Too many draws (likely to be a symptom of some of the options above) 56.00%

Fixture listing and congestion (A fat spanish waiter thought this was very important) 1%

Several of the above 15%


Several options could be selected that is why the total runs to more than 100%

Peoples comments:
goalkeeper costs us 6-8 points a season more than he saves us

Dont have that arrogant confidenence , like to be underdogs - Good teams know they are better and perform

The loss of roughly 12 points in games we controlled, failed to secure - and I feel Moyes' caution is to blame for this - and either lost/drew due to conceding late goals. Top 4 place would have been secure but for this.

Bill Kenwright and David Moyes

Poor Defence for most of the season

What an infantile, trite, shallow survey. Doesn't merit a response to legitimize it in any way
This respondent actually answered the questionnaire???

WE do not have a squad good enough to compete for top 4 because of inadequate funding.

Lack of quality players to fill in & a reluctance to play fringe players

youre shite you horrible wool c**t - You don’t know me! Wool? I live in Skem but I am from Walton!

General Malaise. No spark down the stretch.

tim howard's howlers

Shitheads like you who don't know how to support a good set of players and fantastic manager. Wish you'd fuck off. Prick.
Where have I criticised Moyes or the squad? I don’t like Neville but I think Moyes’ is a good, but not brilliant ,manager, not a Pep Guardiola. We have a good Squad!

I feel formation compacted opponents penalty areas resulting in no space for Jelly to play his game

no investment

Moyes is not good enough

No attacking nouse as with all previous seasons.Team simply not good enough.

Failure to use the youngsters ie Velliosl, Barkley etc..

Tim howard is a terrible goal keeper. costing just as much if not more than he prevents

This season has Everton performed better or worse than you expected ?
Far above what I expected (I expected relegation) 0%

Above what I expected 34%

What I expected 50%

Below what I expected 14.00%

Far below what I expected (I expected to win the league or a trophy) 2%

Only one option could be selected

Ross Edwards
905 Posted 26/04/2013 at 13:00:30
Moyes's tactics, 42%. There you are then. It's not just me who thinks he is an inept fool. He and his ineptitude have cost us massively this season and yet people think he should be absolved of any blame whatsoever.

Lack of ambition from the fans right up to Bill is holding us back. If the fans actually hoped for more than 7th every year, Moyes actually attacking and aiming high for once and Bill actually attempting to move the club forward.

We have a strong squad and it is being held back by a shambolic, unambitious idiot in Bill, a cautious, tactically inept manager and the majority of fans who think that average and cup failure every year is overachieving.

Stephen Smith
906 Posted 26/04/2013 at 13:29:42
To sum everything up, Moyes is being stupid in how he picks his squad. He is using his older favourite players that, who aren't as the term says 'losing it' but are slightly past their time. I think Moyes should play some of the younger players such as Vellios and Barkley, just to freshen the squad up a little bit.
Tony J Williams
907 Posted 26/04/2013 at 13:18:00
Ross, it's a poll that has taken its answers from ToffeeWeb, widely known as a "negative" site (can't see how, it's the posters who give the site its leanings)

People were all behind the poll on this site when they wanted Moyes out but when the numbers changed they started twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing saying that the numbers meant nothing and that it wasn't the majority, even though it was over 50%

Who knows who the first 100 posters were, could have been 100 MOB, could have been 100 Apologists, whomever got on first coloured the results.

"Lack of ambition from the fans right up to Bill is holding us back" - Here it is again....it's the fans fault bullshit. Ok then Ross, it's your fault that we have not reached 4th this year, you haven't done enough in you fight against Moyes/Bill. Stupid, but you started it!

Kevin Hudson
909 Posted 26/04/2013 at 13:33:12
The "inept fool," took a team that was the laughing stock of the division, to one of the most respected.

The same "moron," provided the most consistent league returns in a generation.

His "strongest squad," is one of the smallest in the Premier League.

The "average, bottling failure," has a win-ratio that dwarfs the majority of his predecessors.

Also, I've yet to meet a single Evertonian who "hopes to finish 7th."

Ernie Baywood
913 Posted 26/04/2013 at 14:04:35
And that's before anyone actually bothers to look at our performance against the 'big' sides.
Chris Regan
919 Posted 26/04/2013 at 14:30:30
Ross #905, glad to see you are passionate about the club. I read your response and intepreted your comment 'Lack of ambition from the fans right up to Bill is holding us back' as being based on the results of the second question.

I worded this question to establish fans' expectations of the current squad (levels of realism) not their desires (win everything on offer).

Every Blue I have met wants to win a trophy, I have never met Kenwright, so can't comment for him. But I think my survey proved that most lay the blame here upon the board.

Tony #907, in answer to your post. You are right anyone could have ticked those boxes, I hope though that these results represent the thoughts of ToffeeWeb users and hopefully Evertonians as a whole.

Tony J Williams
923 Posted 26/04/2013 at 15:09:12
Fair do's Chris, but you can hope all you want but it is generally the more vocal or dare I say "rabid" posters who would have rushed right over to your poll.

As I said, fair play for settling one up but the sites limited numbers mean that it is probably not really representative of Evertonians as a whole.

Chris Regan
929 Posted 26/04/2013 at 15:31:36
Tony, there were a few weird comments to say the least. No doubt you have read them in the results I posted. One comment said, "What an infantile, trite, shallow survey. Doesn't merit a response to legitimize it in any way" and then answered the questions. So, I did have a feeling that some respondents were a bit OTT.

I did however feel that the the other comments posted gave fair and reasonable answers.

I was surprised at how far in front the option to lay the blame at the board was, and that Moyes's contract negotiations got a low response.

The least surprise I had though, was the low response to the fixture list affecting results. Maybe it is just Rafa who thinks that. Like I said, I offered no interpretation and let people draw their own conclusions.

Ian Hollingworth
949 Posted 26/04/2013 at 16:40:46
Richard (731) I agree 7th is ok but the sin is not expecting more. Why shouldn't we expect more from our side.
I also think that under the circumstances he has to work with Moyes has done a great job. However he has many failings and could have done better. He has played a big part in stabilising the club but we need and should want to push on to the next level.
I do not think that Moyes can push us on to the next level although I would happily be proved wrong on that one.
My bigger concern is that I know the loveable blue / red (depending who is at home apparently) is defo not the man to lead us to the next level and that is the bigger problem we face.
In any other industry a board so inept would be replaced.
For me, Everton have to push to the next level and BK has to move aside to enable that
Peter Askins
035 Posted 26/04/2013 at 22:08:16
I too expected us to finish higher than 7th at the start of this season, and guess what ?

I put my money where my mouth was, and backed us at odds of 5/1 at the bookies to finish in the Top Six.

That's right, the bookies were offering odds of 5/1.

From memory, they had both the RS and Newcastle as finishing above us, so in that respect alone, we have over-achieved this season.

I trust some others also took advantage of these generous odds, and backed the team, as the results of this survey indicate that most people expected us to be sixth or better.

Ernie Baywood
091 Posted 27/04/2013 at 10:23:56
I backed us 'without the Big 6' at 3/1. Which was simply printing money.
Harold Matthews
213 Posted 27/04/2013 at 19:46:15
We have 2 or 3 decent players. The rest are nowhere near top 4 standard. Europe would be a disaster. As someone pointed out, it's all about money and we don't have any.
Tony Marsh
217 Posted 27/04/2013 at 19:59:11
Harold Mathews, someone should've pointed out it's all about Money to Borussia Dortmund then, because their team cost less than virtually every Premier League club, yet they will be in the Champions League final next month after slotting 4 past Real Madrid???

Just pointing that out, like.

Harold Matthews
341 Posted 28/04/2013 at 09:59:16
Tony. Borussia Dortmund are the 2nd richest club in Germany with gates of over 80,000 and their best players will move to the richest club, Bayern Munich, where they will earn huge wages and win more trophies.

Nevertheless, your argument is a strong one and illustrates what can be achieved with a top coach, a supportive Board, a first rate academy, good scouts and the right backroom staff. Fergie at Aberdeen and Bobby Robson at Ipswich spring to mind.

Some would say Moyes has done a fine job with little support, and he probably has. So where do we go from here? Borussia Dortmund are a difficult act to follow. The Bundesliga has the longest winter break and the competition is poor. This has resulted in the German teams looking as fresh as daisies in The Champions League. The Premier League is a whole different ballgame.

We have an ageing squad which will seriously deteriorate if it is not refreshed; Moyes is obviously concerned about this and I can only hope the right decisions are made all round.

Wayne Smyth
158 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:25:50
There are many things we could have done to help us get into the top 4. Spend lots of cash. Hire a better management team. Buy better players.

For me though you need to look at what we could realistically have done better, rather than complain that some oligarch hasn't turned up.

Belief and desire are completely free and I think a lack of those has probably been one of our main undoings. We've drawn far too many games against less-able teams, consistently not pushed on sufficiently after going into a lead and failed to turn up completely for some games.

For me that is the difference between great teams and the rest. Its the mental strength to believe you can win in every game, not just a handful.

Mental strength is why Man U have won the league and left Chelsea and Man City in their wake. In the last 5 years, Man U have net spent on average £11M per season, compared to £78M / season for City and £57M for chelsea. Stability and mental strength are key to punching above your financial weight. Moyes has been given stability, but has not been able to suitably motivate the players in every game to reach that 4th spot.

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