Moyes explains development rationale

, 15 September, 58comments  |  Jump to most recent
Good youth players need
David Moyes has confirmed his reservations about putting young and inexperienced players into the Premier League pressure cooker, explaining his thinking about sending Ross Barkley out on loan, but only for a month, so he can play "men's football".

“I have to think longer term with Ross Barkley and look at his development, so it's time to allow him to go out on loan.

“I think the time is right to further Ross's development. It's not ideal because we need another midfielder, but I have to think longer term in his development, and he is ready for men's football, so that's why I've sent him out on loan.

“I've only done it for a month though, because we are short. I want to see how he develops.

"It is tough to put young players in the first team because Premier League games are so valuable and even league positions where you finish are worth a lot of money," said the Scot.

"And if I lost, the media wouldn't be 'It was great I played Ross Barkley', you'd be asking me about a defeat. I think that is part of the Premier League now, it makes it difficult.

"But I do think we have been one of the better clubs at introducing young players and trying to give them opportunities and we will continue to do so.

"Ross is ready to go play at a senior level, but not quite here yet.

"I remember the likes of Leon Osman going out on loan to Carlisle and Derby before he played and, from my playing career, David Beckham came and played for us at Preston.

"You have to remember he is only 18 years old and he missed a lot of football (having sustained a triple-break of his leg in 2011).

"He came on the scene last year and we tried to get him lots of games with the youth team and reserve team.

"But the chance to get him some regular football is more important for his long-term development because he is not ready to play regularly for us now.

"It will be good for him to have the chance to go and make some mistakes and learn at Sheffield Wednesday, a big club with a big support.

"We might look at sending Shane Duffy out on loan but we have to field a team in the new Under 21 league,' said Moyes. 'It looks like everyone is taking that a little bit more seriously and we'd like to be as strong as we can be.

"We'd like to see the players come on but Ross, and maybe Shane, are in a different situation.

"My idea is to keep Shane here. He went out to Scunthorpe on loan last season and came back and played a couple of games — I thought it made a big difference.

"He had confidence and he understood playing on a Saturday was serious, meaning an awful lot to supporters and managers."

Quotes or other material sourced from Daily Post and Daily Mail



Reader Comments (58)

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Shaun Sparke
1 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:17:42
So David Moyes maintains that Ross is not quite ready for first team football with us at the moment, as he is only 18. I can perfectly understand that position, but what I cant understand is why he thought he was ready for first team football at the beginning of last season when he was a year younger! It is a massive contradiction. On top of this Duffy came in last season and did an incredibly impressive job only to find himself ousted when others returned from injury. This doesn't really send out a positive message to the youngsters at the club and maybe one of the reasons why the likes of Baxter decided against signing another contract.

I am not a Moyes hater by the way. I just hate some of the "Trust me I know what I am doing" statements that he spouts out every so often. Some of us have been watching Everton when he were a spotty faced Glaswegian kicking lumps out of more skilful players. We know a player when we see one Mr Moyes and we don't have to be on 5 million a year or whatever you are on to recognise that.

Bobby Thomas
2 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:37:43
Maybe Moyes was wrong and realised he was wrong.
Nick Entwistle
3 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:36:52
Playing him in a few games at 17 doesn't mean he's ready for 'first team football'. It means he's good enough to be gradually integrated. Moyes said himself he would have been in earlier if it wasn't for his leg break.

Youth players can take positives from that, especially when they see those who do go one to make the first team.

Shaun Sparke
4 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:43:36
Moyes admitting he was wrong? That will be a first. Sorry Nick I disagree. Moyes has never been one to take chances with the first team. He would not have played him if he didnt think he was ready. Which he now says he isn't. As I said its a big contradiction and it would be nice of he did come out and say he thought he was wrong.
Jimmy Sørheim
5 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:39:35
Great input, Shaun! I fully agree with your thinking, and it must have affected Baxter because he did not get to play after he was on loan.

To understand the thinking of Moyes is sometimes VERY difficult, and with regards to our youngsters I think Moyes needs to learn a lot from Wenger and Ferguson.

Moyes is not the ultimate manager we all would like to think, he lacks balls when attacking and he lacks balls when to support youngsters all the way! That is my final conclusion after he sent Barkley out to Wednesday, when we needed him here to cover for Gibson if Juinior is not fit enough yet.

How much our midfield suffers when Neville is in there is for all to be seen, and now that Gibson is out that will only become worse. The effect of having Neville in midfield will cost us games, Barkley would cost us less games during a whole season, that I am sure of, because Neville is a defender and his passing sucks, he has no movement left, I think it is time he quit playing in midfield.

Here is me hoping Barkley will do great for Wednesday, and that he will explode in his new role.

Nick Entwistle
6 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:55:55
No, he doesn't take risks, but he does allow youth to come through. We know the examples. The injuries at the time may have allowed Barkley his moment but I'm not sure what he's supposed to be wrong about.

Blooding a player is not a big neon sign that reads this lad is now ready to play each and every week. Do you not think gradual integration as a good thing?

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't...
Paul David
7 Posted 15/09/2012 at 16:53:42
I agree with Shaun.

He played him at the start of last season when you would imagine managers pick what they think their strongest 11 is cos theres been no games to base form on. Barkley was banished from the first team as soon as he made a mistake which he is almost admitting to. When you consider Cahill's form last year there was no excuse not for giving him more game time. He simply does not trust kids no matter how much he tries to kid us he gives kids a chance.

Paul David
8 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:02:24
Nick, where are these signs of gradual intergration?
Ray Roche
9 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:06:11
Shaun/Paul

Maybe when Ross actually payed a competetive match in the Prem that Moyes could see he wasn't quite as ready as he thought he was.

Graeme Jenkinson
10 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:01:50
Barkley is a gifted footballer, it will be a good thing to get him some 1st team experience playing competitive football week-in, week-out, where he can be a key player for Wednesday. He will gain confidence and develop as a player.

There's no substitute for experience and we can't offer that at the moment to the same degree. Moyes should send him away for the whole season and reap the rewards next season when he will explode onto the scene and become an Everton regular. And then be sold probably!
Paul David
11 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:10:50
Ray

I have no problem with that but it can't be a coincidence that he only thought it once Barkley made a mistake. You have to accept that when playing kids but it seems Moyes doesn't want to accept it even if the lad is good enough to play.

Nick Entwistle
12 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:12:58
You can answer that yourself Paul. Has he played for the first team? 6 times last season, once already this season. What are you avoiding?

And apply that same logic to Vellios, Duffy, McAleny... Ossie, Vic, Vaughan, Coleman, Rodwell, Chadwick, Rooney...

Yeah! Chadwick!

Paul David
14 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:21:32
Nick

Barkley was restricted to only 6 appearances by the useless Cahill.

Vellios was kept out of the team by the even more useless Saha.

Duffy was motm in 2 of the 3 games he played before being dropped in favour of a right back playing centre half.

Ossy was about 23 when he started playing for Everton which isn't young.

Coleman wasn't that young either but in his first full season when he was playing well he was, without fail, always the first player to be brought off, even if other players were playing worse.

Al Reddish
15 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:34:20
If Barkley starts playing when he is also 23 and has the career Ossie has, then it would have been a great shout by Moyes.

I heard Michael Owen saying last night his injuries are down to playing too much footie at 18, and maybe Moyes has learned from all the injuries Vaughan picked up at an early stage.
Nick Entwistle
16 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:33:37
Well, what I call integration, you call restriction.

No one forces Moyes to play anyone, and he chose those players when he did. So perhaps we can agree on 'restricted integration' being the Moyes philosophy.

Paul David
17 Posted 15/09/2012 at 17:38:54
Al

Fabregas has been playing since he was 18 and he isn't getting injured all the time. Some players get injured more than most and I doubt its down to how much first team football they play when younger, just because someone isn't playing in the first team doesn't mean there not playing football still.

Nick

I don't want the likes of Barkley to be playing every game but what I do want to see is seeing them replace senior players who don't deserve to be in the team.

Its expected that kids will go through dips in form but it should be less acceptable for them performances from senior players. Young players can't get near the team even when some senior players put in consistent poor performances.

Nick Entwistle
18 Posted 15/09/2012 at 18:02:49
Here's something to ponder. Is it in Barkely's best interest to be integrated in that crap we witnessed in the first half of last season, or in the best interest of Everton to integrate when they are on top form?

Hmmm.... anyway, the RS are losing. Back to the game...

Paul David
19 Posted 15/09/2012 at 18:09:33
In an ideal world young players would be brought into a winning side but he wasn't played when we were good or shite.
Barry Rathbone
20 Posted 15/09/2012 at 18:10:03
I'm finding myself defending Moyes these days maybe it's early Alzheimers I don't know, the room doesn't smell of cabbage so I think I'm ok.

Not only do I agree with him I appreciate him actually explaining what he's doing.

Time for a nap.

Andy Crooks
21 Posted 15/09/2012 at 18:14:16
Paul David # 889; you are talking a lot of sense. We have a small squad, Gibson is injured, so. Moyes sends Barkley out on loan. Duffy, as you say , Paul, plays well but gets dropped for a right back, Of course, though, we are told that Moyes sees these players in training and know what he is doing.

He saw Jagielka in training and thought he was a mid-fielder. Something in training makes him think that Heitinga is also a mid-fielder. I don't know what Phil Neville does but I reckon he'd keep Messi out of Moyes's side. In fact,while Neville has use of two legs I doubt a young player will get a chance. It took an eternity before Coleman got a shot wide right. Baines is a better left back than Lescott but Moyes took quite a bit of convincing. One must accept that Mucha shows fuck all in training(otherwise Howard would have been dropped some time ago). so why is he still here.

Moyes is an ultra conservative coach with favourites he is extremely reluctant to drop.The notion that he sees players in training and is therefore always right is ludicrous. To send Duffy out on loan with Heitinga on the bench and Jagielka starting seems incomprehensible,The message this man sends to young players must be soul destroying.

Jim Knightley
22 Posted 15/09/2012 at 19:55:26
Andy..bit confused by parts of your post.

For instance..'To send Duffy out on loan with Heitinga on the bench and Jagielka starting seems incomprehensible...'

Do you mean, that you think it is best for Duffy's development to sit on the bench...because he is clearly not going to be playing above Jags, Heitinga or Distin. How many 20 year olds cbs are there playing in the premier league? He clearly would benefit from a run in lower league football, and he is not ready for us.

I don't understand the notion, that because a youth player has one half decent game, that he should all of a sudden be an intrinsic part of the side. Barkley, did show some skill in one match...and then he showed his naivity and weaknesses in others which followed. I've seen other people see it..other people comment about his performances in reverse games..but a disturbing amount seem to think he should be playing for us, week in, week out. There is an argument he should be in the squad at the moment for sure, and if we get an injury, we could be in trouble (although we could recall him), but he isn't ready for first team football. And yes, sticking a player in at a level they are not ready can have a damaging mental effect. It's not a risk-free situation.

With respect to Jags..how many times has he played in midfield of late Andy? and Jags, for information purposes, played midfield for Sheffield United on occasions. It wasn't invented by Moyes. And Andy, what do you mean we have to accept Mucha shows fuck all in training? when ever he has played, he has shown himself to be a worse goalie than Howard. And why is he here still? well...possibly it has something to do with a financial situation which does not allow us to pay a transfer fee for a sub goalie.

Also Andy, your final comment 'The message this man sends to young players must be soul destroying' - Utter bullshit. Let's take the cases of Barkley and Duffy. Duffy is 20, he is a long term replacement for Distin...he is arguably the fourth choice cb at a top half premier league club. Oo it must be so soul destroying for him to go and play in the Championship(presumably), instead of sitting on the bench. And Barkley is 18, and he is gone to play championship football on a short, not long term, deal, which suggests he will have a part to play as the season progresses.

I wonder how Wilshere coped with going on loan? actually, he, whilst a bigger talent than Barkley, compares quite well. Talented, but naive, he needed time away from Arsenal to grow...and so does Barkley. Many top players have gone on loan and benefited, and Barkley will as well. Whether he becomes a top player for us, a top player in the league, or becomes a championship player in the future...time on loan will benefit him.

Christopher Kelly
23 Posted 15/09/2012 at 20:15:44
I bet if Rooney stayed he would end up being half the player he is today (of course he also played for a better side so that has to be taken into account).

I'm struggling to remember a young player who has been developed by EFC and that has become a truly great player here.

(Osman is not a GREAT player, he is at best an average player who should be a second stringer albeit for Moyes's favouritism.)

Christopher Kelly
24 Posted 15/09/2012 at 20:25:23
And instead of Barkley riding the pine last season, as Shaun said, he should've been out on loan last year and able and ready to play for us right now.
Paul Brannan
25 Posted 15/09/2012 at 20:28:40
Paul (#889), if you remember, Duffy was dropped for the Man City game Tony Hibbert came in and kept Aguero quiet. When I saw the team, I was shocked, but Moyes was right in his selection.
Brendan McLaughlin
26 Posted 15/09/2012 at 20:30:12
Andy #901
Normally you are better than that but you're hankering back to crticise Moyes when he played Jagielka in midfield?...Lescott at left back?...& Duffy is so "soul-destroyed" that he just signed a new deal? I don't think you even make the MOB's bench these days Andy :-)
Trevor Lynes
27 Posted 15/09/2012 at 20:42:26
In the past reserve teams were fielded in a league and players out of form or coming back from injury played for the reserves to regain form or match fitness. The seven-man bench defeats this and many players are played mega bucks for bench warming and perhaps coming on for 15 minute cameos.

I maybe a skeptic but I see the loan system being used to save on the wage bill at our club. Man Utd lend players out who are not needed at the time BUT they already have at least two players for every position.

Compare the benches of other clubs with ours. A few seasons ago, our bench was an absolute creche. We consistently lend out a whole bevy of players and bring in very few.

Andy Crooks
28 Posted 15/09/2012 at 21:17:16
Brendan and Jim, fair enough. The point I was laboriously making(and digging, deeply digging, for evidence to support) was that David Moyes sometimes gets it wrong. I know I am in a minority but I would have Duffy ahead of Jagielka and will be gutted if he goes on loan.

Jim, I take on board what you say but ,for me, goal keeper is the one position where a run in the side is required. I don't think even David Moyes can know how good Mucha is but he was an international player. I think there is a balance between accepting that all players make mistakes from time to time and sticking by out of form players. I think that Moyes was very intolerant of Barkley. Maybe that is the right approach with young players but not in my view.

Brendan, okay, I went back too far. Now, any chance I can be considered for the MOB starting line up? If not I;ll be off in January.

Paul David
29 Posted 15/09/2012 at 21:59:02
Paul

If Moyes dropped Jelavic for the derby, played Anichebe instead who scored the only goal, would he have made the right decision? I think the whole world would regard that as foolish even if it did work.

Yes, Hibbert came in and did a good job and we won the game but did Duffy deserve to be dropped? My point is that young players (mostly) only get picked when Moyes has no other options and quickly get dropped as soon as a senior player is available. Even if that senior player has been playing shit and the youngster has been playing well.

Kev Prytherch
30 Posted 15/09/2012 at 22:21:11
Forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't moyes drop Duffy for hibbert then we went and beat city? Pretty good move if you ask me.
Ian Bennett
31 Posted 15/09/2012 at 22:31:43
Hibbert played centre half and we won the match. Sometimes you pitch in a young kid and he can handle it and sometimes they can't. For every keep Duffy in, you get a top performance or Turner throwing them in against the Mancs.
Robin Cannon
32 Posted 15/09/2012 at 23:35:35
@Paul(930)

Depends on the reasoning for the decision. Everyone was criticizing him for throwing Fellaini up front and playing Neville in midfield against United, but it was absolutely the right tactical decision then to take full advantage of United's injury problems in central defence.

Against City, he played Hibbert specifically to "do a job" on an individual player - something probably more suited to a more experienced player than Duffy. Again, a reasonable tactical decision and one that worked.

That's very different than just "dropping Jelavic for the derby". If he dropped Jelavic because Liverpool had some central defensive issue that made them particularly vulnerable to Anichebe's style of play then, yeah, it could legitimately be the "right" decision.

Of course, all those "right" decisions depend entirely on the end result. But the tactical decision would still have been a logical one based on a certain judgement of the match situation.

Paul David
33 Posted 15/09/2012 at 23:55:19
Robin

If Moyes did bring Hibbert in to the team because he thought he could do a particular job that Duffy couldn't then fair enough. I can see the reason behind that decision even if I don't agree with it but it is just one example of Moyes not trusting kids.

Do you have an explaination for Barkley not getting near the pitch despite Cahill playing every game and being shite in every game or choosing McFadden over him?

Or Vellios not getting a game despite scoring 3 goals in the few minutes he spent on the pitch. All the while Saha started every game,didn't score and walked around the pitch with body language that screamed "I can't be arsed with this".

Craig Taylor
35 Posted 16/09/2012 at 08:21:51
I am an Evertonian but occassionally go to watch Brighton as I have lived here for 15 years. when I heard Barkley had signed for Sheff Weds on loan I was excited because I had got a ticket for the game a few days before he signed. I was looking forward to seeing Barkley more than the game its self!!! He came on at the start of the second half when they were already losing 1-0. He played more as a second striker. Considering he had virtually no team training prior to the game he played quite well. Although he didnt see much of the ball, his movement was very impressive and he was desperate to get on the ball and have an influence. He also wasnt scared to direct some of his new team mates into different positions. His overall performance was good, infact he looked a bit better than the others because of his constant movement compared to the rest of the team. The way he read the play and positioned himself to recieve the ball was excellent, they just seemed to ignore him alot so they could punt the ball into the box for Bothroyd. With his awareness, positioning sence, footwork and hard work he will turn into a fine footballer sooner rather than later!!!
Tony Cheek
36 Posted 16/09/2012 at 09:38:17
Am I the only one that thinks some of Moyes statements are "strange", for a PL manager? "It wil be good for him to go and make some mistakes..." WTF?

Yes, I understand what he means but what an arse-about-face way to put it. Why not "It will be great experience for him, and help his developement on his way to PL football"? If I was Ross, I think that would have given me a bit more confidence in a loan period!

SAF threw two youngsters into the fray against Wigan yesterday, both scored and everyone is talking about it today. Moyes will NEVER do thiings like that, he hasn't got the balls. Our youngsters are given a chance when Moyes has got no other option. It doesnt mean a thing to him if they play well or not, as they are benched as soon as the "men" are fit again.
Nick Entwistle
37 Posted 16/09/2012 at 10:00:45
That would be 23-year-old Buttner then, Tony? And Powell who's 18 coming on with 10 to go with the game already won? I think Moyes does things like that all the time.
Sam Hoare
38 Posted 16/09/2012 at 10:11:10
Craig 958, thanks for the report. Good to know he made a good impression. Really hope he gets a run of games and to be honest I hope they take him until Xmas (unless we pick up injuries) as a long first team stint at a decent level will really help him and I think the same is probably true for Duffy.

In terms of Moyes record with young players I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There can be no douting that he is prepared to give younger players a shot as shown by starts for Barkley, Vellios, Rodwell and Duffy over the last year. But equally I don't think it can be doubted that he often errs on the the side of caution and prefers to place his trust in experienced pros a lot of the time. I think he probably has good reasons for both these sets of action...

Karl Masters
39 Posted 16/09/2012 at 10:32:50
It's a funny thing after the rubbish you spouted earlier this week, Nick , but I agree with you.

To me, Moyes is saying that Ross is nearly ready and maybe in a month's time he will be. He is only 18 so really, what is the problem with that? And I think it's admirable that Moyes is taking the time to explain his thinking.

I know some of you are impatient to see a new wonderkid, but you are probably the same ones that will then be moaning that it's inevitable he will leave for Man Utd. Once he turns in some good performances. In other words, soe of you just love a moan and a whinge! Just admit it.

Karl Masters
40 Posted 16/09/2012 at 10:47:16
Tony Cheek. This is the same Moes with no balls that put Rooney on against Arsenal and Leeds so he could score the winners in both games? And did you know that Everton have seven of the ten youngest scores in EPL history with Vaughan, Rooney, Anichebe doing so under Moyes. In the years since then he has played Rodwell at sixteen and the physical level is getting harder all the time and harder for boys and young men to deal with the physical side of things. I would call it sensible caution rather than recklessly hoping for the best myself.
Tony Marsh
41 Posted 16/09/2012 at 10:54:08
The jury is still out on Ross Barkley but the drivel that Moyes spouts is so annoying... What the fuck has age got to do with anything? If your good enough your old enough. Look at the Likes of Scholes, Giggs, Micheal Owen, Gerrard, Rooney, etc — all started playing regular first team football at the ages of 16/17. Never did them any harm did it? Gareth Bale at Spurs is another who has been doing the buisness for years now and he is still a baby. Moyes as cautious as ever, scared to experiment and break away from his rigid football ethos.
Tony Cheek
42 Posted 16/09/2012 at 11:59:35
Yes, I am aware of all them facts Karl, having been a Blue for over 40 years. Apart from Rooney, who was, lets face it, an exceptional talent, where are the seven youngest scorers now, warming a bench somewhere?
Seem to remember Velios scoring some crackers not long ago, did he really get a chance after that......No, Louis Saha, Cahill and even playing without a striker was Moyes preference.
Drew O'Neall
43 Posted 16/09/2012 at 12:23:32
Theres's probably a feeling around the club that Barkley is good enough because he has the touch and would impress in training but Moyesy feels that he makes mistakes when he puts him in.

Letting another manager put him in and tell him the same things will help Ross fully appreciate he still has some development to achieve and that there isn't a personality issue with Moyes.

If he comes back not having been successful he and others will perhaps have a bit more patient, if he sets e world on fire, Moyes will put him in, it's a win/win.

Karl Masters
44 Posted 16/09/2012 at 12:26:35
Maybe, just maybe, Tony, we rushed them in too early and their careers have stalled as a result and now they are bench warming as you put it. Too much too young as the Specials put it?
Phil Brown
45 Posted 16/09/2012 at 12:31:59
Craig #958 that's very interesting, as just about Barkley's biggest supporter, having watched him play in the flesh a fair few times the main criticsm I have of him is his languid movement. Maybe it's because he's tended to play a deep midfield role - also for England U19 & U21 - collecting the ball from the back and distributing it.

My own thoughts are that he should play behind the striker, making best use of his biggest asset, his creativity, particularly his ability to see and deliver the killer pass. I still can't believe that Moyes played an out of form Cahill in that position whilst both Osman and Barkley could have supplied Jelavic with a far superior service.

It's good that he will be playing that role for Sheffield Weds (according to the forums) and that he showed good movement, he's always got confidence on the ball perhaps too much for playing deeper in the Premiership. He'll still find it tough in the Championship but Dave Jones should help him to develop and flourish. Don't like Moyes much but I think that he's done the right thing this time.

Should come back a much more developed player and ready to replace Fellani next season once he's moved on - almost inevitable and can't blame him wanting to play at the highest level. Once Ross is fully developed as a player I can see him in the box to box role but it will be a couple of seasons yet.

Phil Walling
46 Posted 16/09/2012 at 13:44:37
Perhaps Moyes playing in Celtic`s first team at 18 is why he was playing for Cambridge three years later! Each player is different, comparing Barkley with Osman who needed to develop his strength and physique is ridiculous.

What good did sending Big Vik out on loan ever achieve – he looked just as crap at Leicester as he does with us.
Kieran Fitzgerald
47 Posted 16/09/2012 at 14:32:19
Rooney was a freak of nature to be as special as he was when he broke onto the scene. It's unfair to compare any other young player to him. I think it says a lot that Barkley has survived all the hype and that the club seems prepared to get him experience and then bring back.

It's also all well and good saying that Moyes should play him now. The kid isn't that experienced. One mistake at premier league will sometimes cost you all three points. You don't want to knock all the confidence out of the kid and also chance also having fans getting on his back.

Amit Vithlani
49 Posted 16/09/2012 at 17:05:39
I watched Barkley in pre-season and he is very confident, but prone to mistakes. Rooney was a different beast (ahem, figuratively ofcourse), he played up top where mistakes were less likely to cost goals. If I remember Barkley gave away a penalty against Blackburn last season and against Leyton Orient gifted the ball to the oppo who almost grabbed a goal.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Moyes approach, generally we need to play down the hype surrounding the kid. He has had bad injuries and needs to learn to develop without pressure.

Martin Mason
50 Posted 16/09/2012 at 17:24:42
Rooney was a freak, a man and a great player at 14. I remember a story about Walter Smith coming to Everton and telling Colin Harvey that it wasn't right to be having Rooney train and play in a much higher age group and that it would affect his development. They then went down to watch training and Rooney scored 2 or 3 goals while Smith watched, clattering players assunder and causing havoc in a group who were 5 years older. You can't compare Rooney to Barkley.

Barkley's day will come and we need him to replace Fellaini when he leaves next year. Moyes is doing the right thing with him though, he is exceptonal but it's no good if he makes mistakes.

Martin Mason
51 Posted 16/09/2012 at 17:32:28
Christopher@913

Osman was the best English player in his age group all of the way through his development and Frank Lampard said he was the best player he's ever seen. Played in his coorrect position he has been a top class player for the club despite the often ridiculous criticism aimed at him here. An average player he is not and whether he's great or not depends on how you subjectively define it. Represented England at every age group and good enough to get into the National team now is pretty great for me for a local lad who has been a model pro and great role model. He has been forever let down by his lack of physical stature but he can be a lovely little player and he is playing well now in a very tough league.

Ian Bennett
52 Posted 16/09/2012 at 17:50:49
To be fair, Scholes, Giggs, Owen, Rooney, Gerrard etc were not played in the engine room. Players on the wing/up front get their chance far sooner than centre-mids, centre-backs and 'keepers.

For the record, Scholes played up front, whereas Gerrard played some games at right back.

Robin Cannon
53 Posted 16/09/2012 at 22:09:32
@Tony Marsh(983)

"Look at the Likes of Scholes, Giggs, Micheal Owen, Gerrard, Rooney, etc — all started playing regular first team football at the ages of 16/17. Never did them any harm did it? "

Paul Scholes didn't make his United debut until less than two months before his 20th birthday. Or the Giggs became a regular first team starter in the 1992-93 season, when he was 19. Gerrard was well past his 18th birthday before he made his Liverpool debut, and didn't become a regular until the following season. Even the youngest regular of those you mention, Owen, didn't play first team football until he was 17, and didn't become a regular until the following season. Bale played 24 times in two years for Spurs, and didn't become a first team regular until he was 20.

So actually the *only* player you list as part of your argument who was given "regular first team football at the ages of 16/17" was given that regular first team football by David Moyes. Ross Barkley made his first team debut earlier than most of the players you mention, and that's despite losing a year of development to a triple leg break.

Doesn't mean that Moyes is a genius when it comes to youth development. But at least try and get the facts right when trying to "prove" your theory that he's far more conservative than other managers who've brought youngsters through.

Brendan McLaughlin
54 Posted 16/09/2012 at 22:52:38
Tony #983
Still telling it.... like it isn't
Jimmy Sørheim
55 Posted 16/09/2012 at 23:53:44
Barkley is now on loan because he needs to first team playing time. That is a good thing for him if he gets to play every game. Vellios should also be out on loan since Barkley has been deemed not ready by Moyes. Duffy played almost the same amount of games as Barkley did, but he was on loan first. Is that the reason why Duffy is staying put at Everton?

I doubt Moyes will play Duffy much this season so he will also go out on loan at some point. Moyes leaves it to other teams to develop his own players. He does not trust that he can do the job correctly by giving Duffy,Barkley and Vellios bit parts to play during a long season.

I admire Wenger, he just throws his youngsters out to the field whenever he wants. He has faith, long term faith. Wenger is probably even better then Ferguson in building youngsters up into very good first team players.

Moyes is lost when it comes to Wenger in working with youth. Can we all just agree that Moyes has a lot to learn before he is as good as Wenger?

Paul Holmes
56 Posted 17/09/2012 at 01:53:40
Liverpool are playing that 17-year-old kid every week and he was called into the England squad last week!

When Rooney was at Everton, Moyes had him as a sub, coming on late in games yet the same lad was starting for England! Cappello said on Sky TV, when he was England manager, that Ross Barkley is the next Wayne Rooney at Everton, and that Everton must play him every week! That was last year; the lad played a couple of games then Moyes dropped him saying he needs more experience!?!

FFS why not play him then instead of Neville etc, Cappello has won more in the game than Moyes, so he must have some idea of a decent player,and he stated that Barkley is decent,maybe Moyes was watching Preston that night when the England manager gave the interview !.
David Ellis
57 Posted 17/09/2012 at 02:12:21
Tony #983 - not only are your facts wrong (as poliely pointed out by Robin above) your sample of Rooney, Giggs, Scholes, Owen & Gerrard also suffers from "survivorship bias". The young players that become stars are the ones we remember becuase...they become stars LATER. One good season does not do it - otherwise we would speak of Rooney in the same breath as Whatshisname (Squid - scored a goal in the derby once??) - ended up nowhere.

Most young players don't make it. We only get to know and remember the ones that do. We all hope that the next shiny new player will be great, but I have seen too many come and go to know that this is very rare. And no rarer at Everton than anywhere else.

Keith Glazzard
58 Posted 17/09/2012 at 02:34:18
Hands up who has seen Ross Barkley play.

I have, and the phrase 'one trick pony' comes to mind. Given a run in the Prem would expose him, possibly quite dramatically. A loan off to Sheff Weds sounds good to me. He has so much to learn. Humility and team work might be a part of that. I hope it does him good.

Mick Davies
59 Posted 17/09/2012 at 02:22:09
The great David Moyes certainly knows what he's doing; he had a striker who seemed all washed up and clueless, yet he still played him, even though he couldn't score in a crack den. Then he finally lets him go and voila..he's the 4th highest scorer in the PL, even though his club get relegated.

He has a solid, fruitful and scintillating left side, which contributes to most of our goals. He buys players as back up for these positions. Meanwhile, on the right side, we have the same old failed old arses from the Smith days, and if one of them isn't fit, then his other fave, Nev comes in..never one of the youngsters.
Si Cooper
60 Posted 17/09/2012 at 02:12:37
With the size of our squad I was worried about the lad being loaned out for a long period. One month seems fair enough if the lad needs to learn some lessons and we should all have some answers soon enough.

If he does brilliantly and the loan is extended, or he comes back and doesn't get used, we will know it is the manager who has problems with the player. If he starts slowly but continues to improve then we will know he had stuff to learn. If he gains confidence from holding his own, learns from whatever mistakes he is likely to make and then is brought back to feature for us then it will be mission accomplished and pats on back all round.

An earlier post suggested that maybe hearing the same thing from another manager may reinforce things for Barkley, which seems like a smart thing to do if the lad has gotten a little full of himself.

All the comparisons with other clubs records with youngsters falls down on a number of points. Firstly, you need to compare managers rather than clubs as it is more likely to be a manager's preference rather than club policy. Secondly, you need to consider each clubs circumstances. Smaller squads, less money to bring in seasoned pros are two factors that are likely to lead to the need to try youngsters. Some of it is going to come down to whether a manager is playing his youngsters because he has faith in them, or whether he is down to trying a last resort in the hope he rolls a 'double six'.

Tony J Williams
61 Posted 17/09/2012 at 09:01:58
Mick, it's a bit pointless being the 4th highest scorer if your team gets relegated.

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