Late turnaround secures precious win

, 10 November, 172comments  |  Jump to most recent
Everton 2 - 1 Sunderland

Unbeaten at home this season, Everton take on Sunderland with an unchanged team that is looking to get back to winning ways after four successive draws. For Sunderland, both Louis Saha and James McFadden are on the bench.

Match Summary

Everton kicked off and started with a long ball up to Fellaini who was awarded a free-kick. A nice move down the middle and a lovely touch from Mirallas put Jelavic through but he took too long then fell over, while Sessegon got in and had a shot on Hibbert that required a really good save for a corner. It was scrappy stuff at times as close attention from Sunderland was making it hard for Everton to settle, with Pienaar off his game.

A dreadful Neville give away ended up with Feltcher in on goal and rolling the ball fractionally wide of Howard's far post. Blues could have been two down already! Everton got a free-kick wide right that Baines swung in and they looked to apply pressure with some simply incredible work from Mirallas to get in behind and make chances. Baines tried to do the same but overplayed it.

More patient build-up play was well constructed at times but came to nothing with desperate blocks to prevent Everton shots from materializing. And over 20 mins before the first Everton shot on goal told its story, Jelavic finally getting off an effort that was deflected over for The Blues first corner that was not really well executed as they really struggled to get through a massed Sunderland defence.

Jagielka picked out Jelavic who tried an audacious flick back to Mirallas that lacked enough power. Pienaar powered in down the right and stung Mignolet's gloves with a lively shot. But a huge blow for Everton when Kevin Mirallas pulled up with a hamstring injury and had to be replaced by Steven Naismith, who was in action early, and a little too aggressively.

Pienaar got in to the byeline but Mignolet batted his cross behind for a corner, then Coleman was sandwiched right on the edge of the Sunderland area, and Baines clipped in a low free-kick to Jelavic running across goal but he met the ball wrong. Everton's passing at crucial moments was letting them down as they tried to go through opposition players, while Sunderland created and squandered another chance.

Fellaini got off a blocked shot that went for a corner but Heitinga was over zealous in causing trouble and the set-piece went begging, Jelavic finally got the bit in his teeth and made three surprising tackles to keep the ball before setting back to Neville who needed little encouragement to shoot from distance, forcing a two-fistted save on the stretch from Mignolet.

The lacklustre Everton performance drew its predictable result just before half-time as Adam Johnson scooped the ball home after escaping his marker, Leon Osman, the Blues giving up the first goal for the sixth game in a row.

Fellaini tried to get the better of his compatriot keeper but had no room to head in Baines's cross. Fellaini then made a long run and won a corner that fell to Heitinga but his shot was wide. From the next corner by Pienaar, Heitinga glanced his header goalwards, but Johnson cleared off the line and Osman fired wide.

Another fantastic Baines delivery but this time Hietinga's header was weak and it bounced harmlessly wide. He later went in the book for a rather poor tackle on Fletcher as the Blues struggled to create any real chances against a very robust defence.

Everton should have had a penalty when Baines was blatantly blocked by Gardner, whop went in the book for his next tackle as Louis Saha replaced Fletcher, Sunderland standing firm against the relatively ineffective probing from an increasingly frustrated Everton side who were running out of ideas.

David Moyes decided it was time for action, sacrificing Neville to make room for Apostollos Vellios, his first appearance of the season, given barely 20 mins too rescue the game. It that Fellaini might be dropping deep but in another patient move, Osman played the ball forward to the big Belgian and a little deft movement saw him fire a low slot very cleanly into the goal well wide of Mignolet. 1 - 1... Game On!.

In the next attack, Fellaini in the same position flicked on an identical ground ball from Osman and Jelavic needed no invitation to pounce and fire in for the second goal in two minutes.

Everton almost contrived to gift Sunderland an equalizer but thankfully Cuearr's shot was blocked by his own man Gardner. The last 10 minutes were much more open. With nervous moments in the Everton defence, Moyes decided to pull Jelavic and give Thomas Hitzlsperger his debut with 5 mins left.

Could Everton now hang on for their first win in five games, after this one had looked so lost for so much of the second half? It was time for the Blues to throw themselves at every ball in the Everton area as Sunderland made the ending as nervy as possible for the Goodison faithful entering 5 mins of added time.

Hitzlspserger looked to strike from distance but drove his shot poorly wide. Hitzlspserger then played in Naismith but the Scot could not dig out his shot. After booking a couple of frustrated Sunderland players, Lee Mason blew his whistle. Everton had finally won again in the Premier League!!! And stay ahead of West Brom in 4th on goal difference.

Everton: Howard; Coleman, Heitinga (Y:57'), Jagielka, Baines; Mirallas (30' Naismith), Osman, Neville (73' Vellios), Pienaar; Fellaini; Jelavic (86' Hitzlsperger).
Subs: Mucha, Oviedo, Distin, Gueye.

Sunderland:Mignolet; Gardner (Y:68'), Cuellar, O'Shea, Rose (Y:90+5'); Johnson (84' Vaughan Y:90+4'), Colback (88' Wickham), Larsson, McClean; Sessesgnon, Fletcher (69' Saha).
Subs: Westwood, Kilgallon, Bramble, McFadden.
Referee: Lee Mason

Michael Kenrick

Quotes or other material sourced from ToffeeWeb Match Reports



Reader Comments (172)

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Paul Johnson
1 Posted 10/11/2012 at 15:01:16
I know why Anichebe isn't involved, he can't grow a tache.........
Anto Byrne
2 Posted 10/11/2012 at 15:48:48
Utter fucking shite... we should be 3-0 down. The defence is all at sea and we are playing crab football with no penetration.

This second half is pivotal to the rest of the season. Lose this and you can forget the top 4.
Anto Byrne
3 Posted 10/11/2012 at 15:56:26
Howard, Neville and Osman (England?!? WTF???) — pathetic stuff.
Christopher Kelly
4 Posted 10/11/2012 at 16:20:22
... And with Mirallas goes our best player. Shame for the lad.
Christopher Kelly
5 Posted 10/11/2012 at 16:21:12
Saha still earning enough to buy hair dye I see. Still horrible style I see as well. Fletcher off, COYB, we need this in the last 20 minutes
Jim Harrison
6 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:01:47
Win. Job done. No further analysis needed.
Drew Shortis
7 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:02:33
Great result! Good to see Vellios back in the team. Fellaini making the difference again and Jelavic back amongst the goals. Bring on Reading!
Matt Traynor
8 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:01:47
6 games on the bounce going behind, at least this time we got the win.

Sunderland defended well, but I don't think we gave them too many difficult moments. Two pieces of brilliance by Fellaini, two dummies of the ball by O'Shea, and 2-1.

Not a good performance, but this was a result that the Everton of as recent as last season would've struggled to pull out.

Hanging in there but got to tighten up at the back. Osman was ball watching for their goal. Individual mistakes are getting us every time.

Steve Guy
9 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:04:03
Sometimes you just have to grind it out. This team never give up.
Anto Byrne
10 Posted 10/11/2012 at 16:58:49
What a difference the removal of Neville made, surely he has played his last game in midfield. Much better with the Big Fella commanding the midfield and pushing up when needed. Good to see Vellios on and the side playing a lot better in the last 20 minutes.

Thanks Phil... now take a back seat up in the main stand and start your coaching career.
Bill Griffiths
11 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:10:32
Initial impressions.

We won and got 3 points from what I thought was one of our worst performances of the season. So maybe our luck has changed..

After dominating games and playing brilliantly we have drawn the last 4 games but today, though having most of the possession, we really struggled and didn't look like getting anything from the game.

We're still 4th and there's every reason to stay positive. Let's stay positive guys, who would have have thought we'd have been in 4th place at this time before then season started?
Jalil Noor
12 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:20:25
Think we are still 4th on GD.. we have +7 and WBA have +5
Kevin Naylor
13 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:20:55
Still in 4th according to the BBC
Tommy Meehan
14 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:25:08
Michael, as far as I can tell we are in fourth on goal difference. Fox sports seem to have put them ahead on the 'tie-breaker' rule, which they seem to have made up. Seems that their sports coverage is about as accurate as their social and political commentary
Amit Vithlani
15 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:22:08
Its about attitude as much as anything. Really poor defending. For once I don't blame our Centre Halves, they were left exposed on the break too many times by our midfielders who couldn't be arsed and Pienaar gave Baines no protection against Sessegnon. Second half and without Mirallas, our Artisans decided to roll sleeves up and came back with a bang. Not a classic but a win is a win.

Would like to see Oviedo given a run for a couple of games in place of Naismith if KM is injured. Pienaar to go wide right - don't think he is linking up with Baines as well and trying him in a different position might do no harm.

Jackie Barry
16 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:27:22
Hopefully Gibson should be back for Reading, there has a been a suggestion of it. Either that or Hitz in for Neville, also please move Naismith down the pecking order, Velios should be ahead of him.
Suresh Gill
17 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:22:09
Definitely dodged a bullet tonight. Thank god Sunderland was consistent with their performance cause we played like crap and still won. Then again we played a wonderful game against Fulham and drew. Defence still need sorting out. Hopefully Mirallas not too serious with what looked to be a hamstring injury?.
Mike Allison
18 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:31:35
Nice bit of editing at the end Michael, especially as West Brom haven't scored more goals than us! Its 21-17 to us.
Paul Woolf
19 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:28:03
What's up with Pienaar? Lately he's been off his game, let's hope Neville goes up in the stands as already stated, and Osman unfortunately needs to wake up a bit more.

Mr Moyes, will you please stop taking off a striker with a few minutes to go! You got away with it today, but you keep tinkering and handing the impetus to the opposition. That said, we are overall pleased with the result because it did not look good after 70 mins. COYB.
Sam Hoare
20 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:32:04
Great sign to pick up 3 points when playing below our best. Hope mirallas is not out for long. I suspect injuries to crucial players may be our undoing this season given the paucity of squad depth.
Brian Cleveland
21 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:38:39

Thank God Sunderland have no confidence in front of goal or we'd have been 3 down by half-time.

I think we were a bit lucky, for all the possession we had we weren't penetrating at all. They looked much better on the break and I was cringing every time they got forward.

Two great moments from the big fella and we got a win.... but not looking good when attacked, defensive stability seems to have become defensive frailty.

We haven't played any of the top teams yet (apart from United) and we can't keep giving a goal start to everyone.. (although Sunderland were so crap they decided to wait until the stroke of half-time before accepting the offer!)...

Yeah, I know, we're never satisfied, but isn't that what Nil Satis Nisi Optimum is about?

Roman Sidey
22 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:47:36
Tommy Meehan, I know for sure that Fox Sports Australia is about as superficial as a 10 year old "reading" stick mags. I've seen all sorts of falacies regarding tables and scores, and show the knowledge of a fly when it comes to any team that isn't Man Utd.

On the game, after four draws, any win is a good win, and a miracle we're still in 4th. Keeping Fulham to two last week is now taking on some meaning as they went to the Emirates and scored three. Could be one of those situations where we can definitely say that we are better than Arsenal - I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

Martin Tilly
23 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:55:12
Well I'm satisfied with a win given that we didn't deserve it. Maybe that makes up for last week. Totally mental decision by Mason in the last min to give us a free kick and book Rose when he was totally sandwiched. A bit of luck for a change feels good.
Ryan Williams
24 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:58:29
I think everyone is being a bit hard on Naismith. What were your expectations? He's an energy guy off the bench and has some versatillity. Is he great? No. Did we pay a transfer fee for him? No. Clearly we need a better alternative in the midfield behind Mirallas and Pienaar and he deserved to be trashed as he was garbage today, but not sure why anyone would expect that much of him anyways.

I know it's a controversial subject, but if Landon Donovan is up for it, at a minimum he'd be a huge upgrade off our bench if anyone of our middy or strikers go down. Just move people around and plug and play LD at any midfield spot.
Barry Rathbone
25 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:47:04
Thank christ we're not Sunderland anymore defenders everywhere inviting teams on hoping for a corner - sends shivers down the spine.

Not great today but not dependent on set -pieces anymore, 2 decent goals and a win is a vast improvement on days of yore.

Pienaar needs to visit Spurs for the magic potion or whatever it is they give him, Naismith hasn't got it and whatever Neville had has gone. If Moyes grasps the nettle it's onwards and upwards.

Stuart Critchley
26 Posted 10/11/2012 at 18:11:42
Not a great performance, but 3 massive points!

Gibbo back next week too!!

COYB !
Tommy Meehan
27 Posted 10/11/2012 at 18:18:48
Aye know what you mean Roman, my rule of thumb is that 'Fox' coverage of anything is the ideological equivalent of looking in a mirror. Hahah, 'as superficial as a 10 year old "reading" stick mags,' sounds like they're upping their game . . .
John Wilson
28 Posted 10/11/2012 at 17:40:32
The typical, but for once unpunished fifth minute Never's goof was probably the reason Moyes took him off about 70 minutes later! Then the master tactician's bringing on of Naismith for the injured Mirallas in the 29th minute only added more confusion to his midfield.

His Vellios for Never swap, was about 5 games late — but this was about the time O'Shea and his spoiler crew stopped having their own way in the air and with Vellios's muscle up front Fellaini began to get room in the box. Two quick goals later to lead, and four minutes left on the clock were just not enough time to catch Sunderland as they opened up desperately to try to level it.

In extra time Hitzlsperger, on his 5 minute debut had a go to kill the game but about 5 yards wide. All-in-all — a very scrappy and lucky win.
Steve Guy
29 Posted 10/11/2012 at 18:24:44
An interesting stat from the BBC.....

• Marouane Fellaini has scored as many goals this season in the league as in his last three campaigns combined (six).

Comment at lunchtime when Beeb had the programme from Goodison Park, that Timmy Cahill leaving has helped Fellaini — and the stats seem to bear that out.

Michael Kenrick
30 Posted 10/11/2012 at 18:34:58
I was thrown for a moment there, Mike (982) when the bastard channel I was watching gave West Brom in 4th and equal goal difference, so I assumed (never assume!!!) that they must've scored more than us...

All part of the unending media conspiracy to do us down! Mind you, we came a little too close to doing that ourselves with that game!

Graham Hammond
31 Posted 10/11/2012 at 18:18:02
Made up with the 3 points today, a massive massive win that keeps our CL dream alive.

We have to keep 4th spot to improve our chances of keeping our top players and to stand a greater chance of adding further much needed quality to the squad in January. The game today was a must win for me and the coming Arsenal fixture is a real 6 pointer, imperative we do not lose to the Gunners as we do all too often.

Always a sting in the tail with Everton though, gutted about Mirallas, such an important player for us, just have to hope his hamstring strain is a minor one and he can return against Arsenal.

Happy days, but only just!

Mike Allison
32 Posted 10/11/2012 at 19:32:37
Are we going to open the Fellaini to drop back into midfield debate now then?

Discuss!

Ian Smitham
33 Posted 10/11/2012 at 19:34:43
Just got back, last year we would have drawn or even lost that game, against a team who were quite nimble attacking, but very adept at spoiling tactics.
Ged Simpson
34 Posted 10/11/2012 at 19:52:43
So — do we want the Shite to beat Chelsea?

What a thought.

Peter Cummings
35 Posted 10/11/2012 at 19:43:05
I didn't think we'd get anything today, the old story of battering against a massed defence with no luck... yet we won it with two classic strikes by two players who were well off colour for most of the game.

When is Pienaar going to get his passing right? Practically every one to the opposition.

Sunderland always looked dangerous on the break and could easily have been 3 up at the break. We MUST tighten up at the back and giving away soft goals from half-chances, hard luck Wearsiders you deserved better.
Paul Andrews
36 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:02:48
Anto,

oh ye of little faith. :)

Paul Andrews
37 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:05:36
Ged, wash your mouth out.

We never want them to beat anyone.
John Campbell
38 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:11:28
Why are people moaning, we are 4th, playing well and banging in the goals.
Paul Kelly
39 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:13:10
That shower couldn't beat an egg. Chelsea for me.
David Hallwood
40 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:16:08
A draw would be nice Ged(#02)
Ian Bennett
41 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:16:07
Barry – good point. O'Neill seems to be struggling at Sunderland, with a squad needing a huge over haul.
Peter Warren
42 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:33:03
Moyes, Moyes, Moyes... I like him but he does my nut in. Why play Neville in midfield? Why keep having Pienaar and Mirallas swap wings? Surely when Mirallas goes off, Oviedo deserves a chance? Naismith hasn't cut it all season.
Andy Meighan
43 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:33:54
Anto (#974) — I don't know where you're coming from, pal. Neville was one of our best players today in a quite shabby performance. The removal of him was purely tactical and worked a treat. Neville never stopped wanting the ball and worked tirelessly.

I'm not his biggest fan by any means but credit where credit is due — he played well today, as he has all season. Maybe the Nev-haters ought to take their venom elsewhere — can someone please tell me what Pienaar has done for the last few games? I'll tell you, shall I? Absolutely zilch. He stunk the fucking yard out today... but, when he tries something that doesn't come off, it's "Ooh, unlucky, Steven lad!" If it's Neville, Coleman or Oossie etc, they get dog's abuse. Gets on my tit, that.

I could harp on about Jelavic who looks off the pace to me... but big up to him: even though O'Shea had him in his pocket, he still managed to get the winner — the hallmark of a great striker. It proves what many of us on here say: give him the service and he'll notch, even though he stunk today.

All-in-all, a shit performance... but evened itself out with the travesties that were the results of Fulham and Newcastle.
Peter Mills
44 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:48:57
The decision by the manager to introduce Velios and drop Fellaini deeper proved to be successful. Well done David Moyes.
Charles Barrow
45 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:50:28
Good to see Vellios today. Moyes has at last brought him back after sidelining him for a year! He deserves a run out in the first team.
Dean Adams
46 Posted 10/11/2012 at 20:58:37
Peter Cummings - I know you are not alone with your, "they could have been 3 up at half time comment" but relly the facts show that they had 3 on target all game. Whats with this shit that people perpetuate that any shot on target against us should have been a goal. Thats the sort of media redshite crap that those ex-shite players on tv keep saying. Drop it its utter bollocks.
Mark Tanton
47 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:03:07
Does Moyes not fancy Oviedo, or is he just being very cautious about introducing him? Mirallas has come in very quickly for a Moyes signing, when you consider how Baines and Lescott were made to wait to hold down a first team place - very unlike Moyes, which shows the quality of Mirallas.
Mark Tanton
48 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:06:40
P.S. Jelavic is totally class, and those who didn't have patience with him should hang their heads. He was always going to score sooner rather than later, and will probably bang in six before Christmas now. He's a brilliant player, and it's about time we had a truely first-rate striker.
Edward Simpson
49 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:02:29
Peter – I agree, and it worked well. Jelavic is clearly playing without confidence at the moment even with his goal.

He works really hard but also think the passes and deliveries have been quite poor for a few games now, showing why we have got a lot of goals from Fellaini.

I also think that we should play Fellaini behind the striker 9 times out of 10 and bring him back in the middle of the park, that was a tactic that worked well today.
Edward Simpson
50 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:09:29
'Passes/crosses to Jelavic have been poor, maybe it's his positioning'
Andy Walker
51 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:02:57
Peter, the reason he's playing Pienaar on the right is because he offers more defensive cover for Coleman than Mirallas would. As I think we all know Coleman is good going forward but not as solid defensively. Pienaar is better defensively than Mirallas so it makes good sense, otherwise we could be vunerable on our right flank.
Not as good a performance as last week but we got the 3 points, thats all that matters. I have the unfortunate luck to have to work in Manchester and the only thing Man U supporters care about is if they win and get 3 points. They don't give a shit about how well they played as long as they win. If they loose its a different story tho. If we want to be up there the only thing that matters is 3 points.
Brent Stephens
52 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:20:15
Peter #011 "Why keep having Pienaar and Mirallas swap wings? Surely when Mirallas goes off, Oviedo deserves a chance".

But as Andy says, part of this might be the cover peanuts can provide for Coleman. I just think the bigger reason is that it mixes our tactics so we're not one-dimensional. I'd also like to see more of Oviedo - but if you think peanuts shouldn't be on the right then where do you put Oviedo - he's very much a left-sided player.

Col Noon
53 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:21:36
The good : 3 points
The Bad : Steven Naismith
The Ugly : Mirallas injury

Note to Mr Moyes - If you continue to persist with Neville in CM when Gibson is fit and after seeing how much more influential was today I will cry...cry like a baby.

Col Noon
54 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:21:36
The good : 3 points
The Bad : Steven Naismith
The Ugly : Mirallas injury

Note to Mr Moyes - If you continue to persist with Neville in CM when Gibson is fit and after seeing how much more influential was today I will cry...cry like a baby.

Christopher Kelly
55 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:32:07
We played like shite but won. That's the turnaround we need. Hopefully THIS is the result that changes are season around and we push on for Fourth!!!! this would've been a heartbreaker and sent us listing (I'm telling you):

Gibbo > Neville

Coleman > Hibbert> Neville

Oviedo > Naismith

Thank you and good night, Neville!

Phil Sammon
56 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:45:11
Well, lets be fair with Naismith. Moyes sees more of him and Oviedo than we have. Naismith looked excellent in pre-season and has only really had one absolute stinker - along with many other against Leeds.

Pienaar was very poor today. His passing was not what we've come to expect. Still, he's a terrific player and we all know it.

Highlights of the game for me, aside from the goals of course. 1. Coleman or Mirrales literally putting a defender on their arse on the edge of their box in the first half. 2. Jelavić's phenomenal tackle (not a euphemism)

Joe Clitherow
57 Posted 10/11/2012 at 21:43:08
Don't understand the "shite play" comments. It's extremely difficult to play against a team that has 11 players behind the ball, which was clearly O'Neill's tactic for this game: a pressing game which relies on the break. In fact during the game I thought they were a lot like some of Moyes' earlier, less talented teams, compensating for talent with aggression and hard work. I heard Moyes say much the same thing on the radio on the way back. A better referee - I think Mason is the poorest ref on the Premier League list - would have noticed the little nudges and fouls before the ball arrived, particularly on Fellaini, but he just did not see them.

If anything, the real criticism of Everton is that we may be believing our current hype and playing a little too much passing football when a more direct option may be better. We need to mix this up a little more.

We always had too much for Sunderland and there wasn't too much wrong with this performance except that Howard needs to command his area much more. I think there is a lack of confidence at the back which stems from a goalkeeper rooted to his line more often than not.

Graham Mockford
58 Posted 10/11/2012 at 22:27:13
Christopher Kelly #029 ever thought of having some original thoughts?

We have lost 1 game in 20 and Phil Neville has played in them all. If you can't see why DM plays him I would suggest you know fuck all about what it takes to create a balanced team. Sure when Gibbo is fit I suspect he will be back in CM but sure as eggs are eggs Pip will be at right back. The reason being he is a seasoned quality footballer who will always give his all. Surely six England managers, SAF and DM can't be wrong.

I see you also are on the Naismith thing, who seems to be this month's boo boy. FFS give the lad a chance, personally I like his attitude and also the equaliser in the Derby.

Tom Bowers
59 Posted 10/11/2012 at 23:34:43
Naismith should have done better but so should a few others who are in every week. Luckily we are keeping our noses ahead of Albion.

Scary today but they may have been getting a complex about not winning in recent weeks despite outplaying the opposition. Giving up the first goal is becoming a bad habit that should be kicked right now.Good job today's wasn't in the last minute of the second half.

Fella and Jela do link up well, as does Kev when he's on the pitch. Hopefully Gibbo will be back next week as he will add a lot more than Pip who quite honestly is just not up to it these days. Jags should be made Captain.
Ernie Baywood
60 Posted 10/11/2012 at 23:31:23
Naismith - not good enough going forward but works hard and does a job defensively. You need a few of those types. Players who do both don't come for free.

Ball watching for the goal aside I thought Ossie had a good game in the centre.

Fair play to Moyes for figuring out a way to get Fellaini away from his marker(s). Start deep and go forward when the opportunity arises.

The criticism of Pienaar is surely due to his usual standards? He was good again today by any other measure. Worked his socks off and was at the centre of most of our good play. Not his best game but still good.

Team had an off day against the sort of side the makes teams have off days. The challenge is to win by attractive football OR by grinding it out. We ground it out. A real test overcome.

Hopefully KM is ok. Looked like a hammy which is a real concern.

Roman Sidey
61 Posted 10/11/2012 at 23:44:09
Mark Tanton, I seem to remember Lescott playing his first game off the bench and then barely ever looking back. Fair enough he didn't hold down the centre half spot for a while, but I believe that this was only because he was one of the best left backs in the country at the time.
Matt Traynor
62 Posted 11/11/2012 at 00:38:18
Roman #047, you are correct. In fact Lescott's extended run at left back was what kept Baines on the bench for so long.
Tony Steele
63 Posted 11/11/2012 at 00:54:40
Fellaini's a beast! He'll play himself into his summer transfer if he's not careful.
Christopher Kelly
64 Posted 11/11/2012 at 00:25:30
Graham,

Do you enjoy draws or do you like wins (as that's what we've been doing a lot of since he moved to Midfield)??? I'm not sure. Maybe you still have an inferiority complex in regards to where we should be in the table and what kind of results we should be getting. Top 4 is there for the taking but you don't ask anything of the manager to help get us there. Just the tried and true that we've been dealing with.. 5 minutes after replacing Neville we get 2 goals. The second half was dire and I could see the season unravelling if we hadn't pulled that out. That loss would have been catastrophic for us.

Phil Neville is a liability and if you can't see that then you have a sad understanding of the game and who we should play to be a winner.

When I see Phil, I don't see leader anymore. Maybe you do?? I see tired legs, late tackles that result in cards, old school style of play that doesn't mesh with our new guys and missed assignments that turn to goals (ask QPR). The 19 out of 20 aren't because of him you, lout, they're in spite of him. You can mask an old, tired player at RB but not CM, my friend. Not in the top half of the EPL. Have some standards my friend. We are constantly exposed and if you think that a player of his caliber should be a lock in our side, maybe your more up Moyes' ass than Nev is.

Regarding right back, I'd continue with Coleman. He's on the up. Sure he's a little limited but I've seen more from him going forwards than Pip in his six years combined. We also don't need Pip's captainship anymore as we can pass that band along right to Jags and be on with it. Youth and talent win out in the league. Don't forget that, Graham.

As for Naismith, he's a try-er and it is not his fault that he is not a world beater as it seems he'd like to be. He does not deserve to be bashed and he shouldn't be. He was brought in for free and clearly works his tail off. As for results, matches count, not practices, and from what I've seen in MATCHES, Oviedo looks sharper. That's just my opinion.


James Flynn
65 Posted 11/11/2012 at 01:22:35
Chris (054) - Mainly agree. Particularly on Coleman. He's learning his trade under pressure. Not easy to do in the Prem.
Andy Crooks
66 Posted 11/11/2012 at 01:30:13
Graham, #038. I admire Phil Neville but by offering in his defence that six England managers can't be wrong you are actually highlighting the problem. Anyone who has played under six England managers must be, well, past their best.
Eric Myles
67 Posted 11/11/2012 at 01:45:59
Andy #012, you only got 1 tit then mate?
Eric Myles
68 Posted 11/11/2012 at 01:53:37
Well said Dean #017, their 'goalscoring chances' didn't even produce a save from Howard whereas we had their goalie earning his pay this week to keep them in the game.
Eric Myles
69 Posted 11/11/2012 at 02:03:27
Oops, a bit of selective memory there, Howard did stop one of them with his foot?
Jim Knightley
70 Posted 11/11/2012 at 02:08:16
Christopher, re your comment:

'Top 4 is there for the taking but you don't ask anything of the manager to help get us there. Just the tried and true that we've been dealing with..'

what are you on about? Since last January, i.e almost a year, we've been playing with Champions League Form... Moyes has yet again resuscitated a tiny squad with minimal funds... but if we get fourth this season, it will be in spite of him?!

And how simplistic is it to point to us scoring two goals within five mins of Neville going off? Neville also played (Very well) against United at home... Very few of us actually want Neville in Midfield, but who else are we suppose to play there exactly? the only viable option (No one mention Hitzlsperger, or prepare for a rant regarding match fitness) would be to drop Fellaini back. Now we could do that... but then Fellaini has scored 6 goals this season from a predominately attacking position, whereas he is far less consistent when played further back. Today it worked, but usually we would lose something offensively. We are also crap enough defensively as it is at the moment, and replacing a disciplined defensive minded midfielder with one who likes to go forward, will not help the situation, especially when we are playing with Osman in central midfield and two attacking full backs and wide men.

You lot should lighten up. We won today, didn't we? We are top four are we not? Above Arsenal, Liverpool, and Spurs, who all consistently outspent? The only clubs above us are City, Chelsea and United, who spend on average around £35 million more than us a season. We are playing, generally, great football. If we can get to the January window in the top four, and add a good central midfielder, get the Hammer match ready and another attacking creative player, then I think we will be in with a massive shot of Champ League football.

Anto Byrne
71 Posted 11/11/2012 at 02:21:57
I watched the Villa - Man Utd game and could not believe the amount of time and space they gave to Paul Scholes in the middle. He didn't have to do much and his passing and distribution was excellent.

In contrast, our midfield of Ossie and Neville left a lot to be desired. Neville either played it square or back to Jags and I could not remember one time when he picked up the ball and moved forward with it 10 yards. His passing was neat and the link up play was neat and tidy back to the defenders.

On one occasion, Jags played this wonderful cross field pass all of 40+ yards on to the toe of Baines from a backpass from Captain Pip. Although Pienaar wasn't having his best afternoon, it was he who was chasing back after losing possession or just closing down space.

All afternoon Neville was just a passenger, finger pointing and shouting god knows what instructions. He gave the ball away far too cheaply and, as was the case with the Fulham game, he was clearly at fault with the two clear-cut chances they spurned. Do you think the sewer-rat from over the road would have missed them?

We had no drive from CM and, as much as Ossie did his best, it wasn't till Neville went off that the game changed and we looked more of a threat. Okay, that's my view of it and I neither hate or despise Phil Neville but it's clearly not his best position.

How about we have Vellios and Jelly starting and Felli a bit deeper next week? Phil can have a rest for a few games? Hey we are 4th so it not all doom and gloom.
Lloyd Farrell
72 Posted 11/11/2012 at 04:16:36
Ged... Chelski to win 8 nil... that would push the red shite down four places if I was looking at the table right... I hope they get trashed from the start to the end... I can't stand the horrible vile bastards.
Mark Wilson
73 Posted 11/11/2012 at 05:09:10
What a strange but fascinating game that was. Sunderland were actually far better than expected, they started positively, created three excellent chances in the first half, scored a clever goal off Osmans sleepy head moment and generally looked well up for a fight. We on the other hand played that first half like we believe Martin Jol's "like Barca" comment last week. We tried to walk the ball into the net and seemed somewhat insulted when Sunderland, in a jolly unsporting manner, refused to lay down and allow us to benefit from the pretty short passing movement. Piennar and Mirallas were again stopping wings like crazy, why I'm still not sure though earlier posters here have a point about the need to let Piennar offer Coleman a bit more protection.

Losing Mirallas is a big blow. He's incredibly creative, has pace and simply twists and turns his way into dangerous positions...if he passed a bit more often it would be brilliant. Hoping its not a six to eight week injury and he can be back for the Arse.

The second half was different though. Sunderland still dangerous on the break and right at the end they could easily have levelled but....this is the new improved Everton and no mistake. Those two quick goals were class. Felli was superb and Yelavic took that winner like one of the best finishers around and I suspect he's back, despite an overall performance that was actually quite poor. But his work rate was impressive and Moyes will have been delighted with the effort.

People are right to say that this was a game we might easily have lost. Yet we battered Fulham and gave away two points right at the end. We just need to mix it up a little more, add some direct play into our options when needed, and pick up three points against the likes of Reading next week to open the gap between us and those chasing fourth place. I'm starting to think its entirely possible we actually have a cracking first fourteen or so......if only we could add a couple in early January and get Dazza back next to Osman.....

Rahman Talib
74 Posted 11/11/2012 at 00:52:42
I'm beginning to hate our fancy play. It's as if we're trying to win points on how nice we look when we play. I say enough of this fancy bullshit. Let's go back to when we were playing more direct football and defend in numbers. So what if we didn't look good playing. As long as we win, day-in and day-out, I don't care how we play. Get that through your thick skull, Davey.
Rahman Talib
75 Posted 11/11/2012 at 06:03:09
Oh and those dudes Vellios and Ovedios. We want to see them more on the field, Davey boy.
Peter Leslie
76 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:00:14
We are not in competition with Chelsea in my view, or the Manchester teams. But we are in for a dogfight for Fourth with Arsenal, Tottenham and (dare I say it) West Brom (at the moment) plus the RS and Newcastle as outsiders. Hence I'm not looking up the table, but backwards over our shoulder.

So I'm made up if Man Yoo, Citteh and Chelski twat our competition all over the place and damage their confidence, and for us to try and nick points off them. I think that's what will get us fourth, because the others in the race with us are also liable to be inconsistent against so-called lesser teams.

Starting today hopefully: Chelsea 4 RS 1 COYB!!
Ken Crowther
77 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:01:15
Rahman Tahib #079

Are you sure you're not a Manure supporter.

That's exactly how they think.

We're Everton, we're the School of Science, get over it or get out.

Graham Mockford
78 Posted 11/11/2012 at 08:35:36
Christopher #054

There is so much horseshit in your post it is hard to know where to start. I see you finish with the obligatory "that's just my opinion" as though I would seek to deny it of you. Of course I don't, you are perfectly entitled to join the herd and seek to blame Pip any time we don't stick three past any opposition. He his doing a good job filling in in the centre of midfield in the absence of any credible alternative. If Gibson was fit, he would be playing right back.

Our record this year with him playing CM is W5 D5 L1, 4th in the table and up to yesterday more attempted shots than any team in the top 5 European leagues. You seem to suggest we have been doing that with 10 men, we must be really special!

You say I have a 'sad understanding of the game' which I therefore conclude you think I share with David Moyes who carries on picking him? I see you don't actually offer any thoughts on who should actually replace him, but to me there are only four alternatives Heitinga, Barkley, Hitz or Fellaini. I'm still picking Pip.

You finish with your opinion on Oviedo, who may turn out to be a decent player. You base your opinion on 3 sub appearances with a grand total of 18 minutes game time. Forgive me for the time being I will accept DM's opinion over your own.

Adam Luszniak
79 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:13:12
"Get that through your thick skull, Davey."

Crikey! Some people are never happy are they?

Phil Sammon
80 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:21:51
Graham @093

Absolutely correct.

Neville is not a centre mid, he is the first to admit that. However he is currently the best option we have. Fellaini is the form man in the league right now. The last thing I want to see is him dropped back to a position where he has been far less effective. Hitzlsperger is off the pace, that much is obvious. Barkley is not a holding midfielder and is out on loan playing 90 minutes as the heartbeat of an improving championship team.

What's all this Naismith bashing? He's a good player. A very neat and tidy footballer. It's hard to come on as a sub and get straight into games but I think he's done a good job over the last few weeks. He'll play more while Miralles is sidelined and I'm sure he'll play well.

Oviedo has played a few minutes. How you can judge him either way is beyond me.

We're 4th FFS and playing great football. We can play teams off the park and we can grind out results. What more do people want?!

Raheem - You're an idiot and you quite clearly don't know what you're talking about. You want us to go back to playing worse football which in turn led to worse results? And you're an Everton fan, you say. Get back on Liverpool's left wing you little cheating shite.

On a side note. Really impressed with Coleman's crossing. It's improved massively recently. We haven't had ammunition from the right for some time. Hopefully it'll create some chances.

Barry Rathbone
81 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:42:02
Rahman 079, it's not "fancy play" it's effective football mixing it long and short as required.

It's not fluke we're getting better results, creativity with attention to defence is, and always will be, the way to go.

We haven't cracked it yet but Moyes should be encouraged in what's going on so far.

Brent Stephens
82 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:35:50
Graham #093 - well put. You set out the alternatives to Pip (while Gibbo is out) and I don't see anybody providing a reasonable argument for any of them to replace Pip. Hitz yet to show; Barkley yet to develop; Heitinga a liability; Fella - weakens our current attacking approach.,
James Martin
83 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:59:36
Always a good laugh reading post match threads. Some of the sentiments like....we won but Moyes is an idiot, he never learns, why does he play this player why does he play this player, why hasn't X maintained his form for 38 games, why can't Y keep his confidence for 38 games he must be terrible despite his goal, Moyes is so tactically inept despite the fact he won due to a tactical switch, one of our best players got injured god Moyes why do you wreck everything for us and why bring on a wideman in place of a wideman instead of a centre forward. Why can't you see Moyes that the formation that has got us to 4th with Neville in midfield is not the right one and Vellios upfront is the answer for every game from now on based on his brief cameo.

Give it a rest, just be happy with 3 points that we probably deserved last week instead of this week but have anyway. Pienaar can't be sensational every single game, form doesn't work like that. Equally Jelavic will drop in confidence throughout the season, but his finish at the end has won us 3 points so lets get behind the lad. Neville and Osman will make mistakes, but why ignore Osman's pinpoint balls to Fellaini for the goals and both their contributions over the season so far. We can't be at 100% every week, Sunderland were desparate for a win, we played badly but still won, that's a sign of a good team.

Graham Mockford
84 Posted 11/11/2012 at 10:15:19
James Martin #105

Damn you! In the shell of a nut.

Paul David
85 Posted 11/11/2012 at 09:53:43
When we have a home banker, that's usually when Everton fuck up... and it looked that way for a long time yesterday so I'm glad of the 3 points.

Jagielka – At last, one of our centre halves seems to be showing some consistent form.

Mirallas – Looks a class act, I hope his injury isn't bad, the most exciting player we've had in years.

Neville – Usual nothing performance, it astounds me how some people defend him and actually believe he offers something to the team.

Pienaar – Really poor game by his standards and hasn't played well for a few games now.

Jelavic – Great finish, hopefully gives him back his confidence.

Naismith – Yes, he's had injuries blah blah blah but he really needs to pull his finger out, I've seen nothing of note from him all season. Anyone else notice when he popped up on the left it seemed like Baines was ignoring him and would choose to pass to someone else instead?

Vellios – Great to see him involved again, I pray to God its the end of Anichebe and this lad gets the chance he deserves.

Andy Meighan
86 Posted 11/11/2012 at 10:36:44
Graham (#093) — great call, mate. When Neville got subbed yesterday, I and everyone who sits near me, knowledgeable supporters by the way, were baffled. We were all in agreement he was one of our better players.

As I posted earlier, I thought the move was purely tactical. Fellaini dropped deeper to allow Vellios to operate up top — and a great move it turned out to be!

I'd say 6 or 7 players never got going yesterday but it's the usual suspects who get the most grief. I'll say this again: Neville played well yesterday.

One defeat all season and a healthy amount of goals scored I think every blue in the world would have settled for this in mid-November He must be doing something right but it seems Pip is an easy target.
Paul Thompson
87 Posted 11/11/2012 at 11:04:23
Paul David@109 How much did you 'pay to god?' If he's not expensive I might try some of that myself. Would be tempted to start with a small payment directed against people who come on this site after games merely to parade their pre-existing prejudices. Naismith needs to 'pull his finger out'?! Whatever his faults, not trying hard enough isn't oen of them. 'Nothing of note from him all season' - that'll be apart from the goal in the derby game then?
Paul David
88 Posted 11/11/2012 at 11:17:28
Paul 116

'Naismith tries hard' – I'll take it all back then. I wasn't aware that doing something any man on the street could do is enough to make you immune from criticism. It was always my view that if someone is paid 5 figure sums every week it is reasonable to expect a bit more quality than 'trying hard'.

Tony Dove
89 Posted 11/11/2012 at 11:51:10
More of Vellios please and no more Victor. I think the main reason that Jelavic is a bit below par is that Mirallas, who is used to being the main goalscorer, has upset the balance of the attack.
Barry Stevens
90 Posted 11/11/2012 at 11:38:18
At about the 65-min mark yesterday, I had given up. We were rubbish. Then in a 5 min purple patch we turned it around. That is the sign of a good team.

As for the Neville bashers, he always shows for the ball, and generally picks a pass that retains our possession and tempo. Okay, they may not be glory balls but that isn't how football works. It is not Fifa!

And lastly, citing the fact we scored 2 once he went off. The goals came about because Fellaini dropped deeper off his two man-markers who had him in their pocket all game.

Kevin Tully
91 Posted 11/11/2012 at 12:14:13
It's always nice to get three points when the game was slipping away from us like that.

A big concern for me at the minute is our defence. We are conceding poor goals from balls played into our box – I wonder if Coleman is a bit suspect in this area? Hibbert always seem to be in the right position to make a clearance, it will be interesting to see how we fare defensively when he returns.

Mirallas will be a huge miss if he is out for any length of time, as Pienaar seems to be a little out of sorts at the moment.

A good night out after that though, now hoping for the Shite to get pasted by Chelsea later today, and it will have been a happy footballing weekend. Looking forward to Rodgers talking bollocks after another terrific defeat!

Paul Jones
92 Posted 11/11/2012 at 12:22:21
Think the criticism of Naismith is harsh. He is quite clearly feeling his way into the Premier League. I think he is definitely a useful member of the squad. He puts himself about, works hard to fill the box when we are attacking, and he is a tidy player. There are goals to come from him.

Performance wise yesterday, I felt we held the ball well, just lacked the cutting edge till late in the second half.

Plus Mirallas looks the real deal. Great signing.

Kieran Fitzgerald
93 Posted 11/11/2012 at 13:01:02
Peter Leslie, spot on. I was just thinking that coming into work this morning. We can't compete with the Manchester clubs, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Newcastle. From looking at how the last couple of seasons have gone we have a strong chance of doing better than Spurs, Arsenal and Newcastle. They have been dropping as many points as we have over the last couple of games so we have managed to keep ahead of them even with our draws.

We are creating chances and will do so against Arsenal and Spurs. We have already shown ourselves to be more than a match for Newcastle. Yesterday took some of the pressure off in that we won ugly. The win will also give extra confidence going into the next two games against Reading and Norwich. Six points from those two games is a must but it will also add extra pressure on those just below us in the table to get results.

As an aside, I haven't seen Oveido in action at all. I know he has only gotten a couple of minutes here and there but what do people make of what they have seen?

Ciarán McGlone
94 Posted 11/11/2012 at 13:14:51
Kieran, In the short time that Oviedo has played, he's shown far more than Naismith.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with eyes in their head can defend Neville. To suggest there's no alternative is nonsense..

Alex Bonnar
95 Posted 11/11/2012 at 14:05:03
Naismith is a decent player and will eventually replace Osman in the future. Clever, hardworking, versatile, skillful and plays for the team – he is/will be recognised for his talents but needs more time/experience to reach full potential – just like Osman did.
Chris Donnelly
96 Posted 11/11/2012 at 14:56:37
Although Naismith was competent yesterday against Sunderland, he replaced an attacking hungry player in Mirallis. I do not pretend to know more than David Moyes, but when we lost Super Kev, why did we not see Oviedo come in and give the same dynamic attacking approach?

Every time he has been on he has worked hard and gives a different edge to our attacking play. He also has the defensive play, pace and he is not known by the opposition, which gives us an edge again.

James Martin
97 Posted 11/11/2012 at 15:07:25
Has there been an extra Everton game this season that I missed? One where Oviedo played for 90 minutes and wowed everyone with his hard work, defensive play and pace? The same game in which he scored two goals to take him ahead of Naismith's tally?

I only remember Oviedo playing against Leeds in the LB position and then against Liverpool for a brief cameo on left wing. Against Leeds he looked good but a little lax positionally, perhaps like Baines did when he first came into the team, lots of pace and attacking instinct. His passing wasn't quite upto scratch but whose was at Leeds? All-in-all, a good initial start.

In the short time he was on against Liverpool he showed good pace relative to Gueye against a poor RB who was flagging and got in some decent balls on his left foot.

That's it, he's definitely worth another look but I just don't understand where all this hype is coming from. To add to this, he's a defender so automatically breaks the TW rule about playing too many defenders at once. If results went sour with him in the team, that would be the first criticism against David 'square pegs in round holes' Moyes.

Have people forgotten that Naismith bagged our equaliser in the derby, or when honest hardworking players score against Liverpool does it not afford you the same sort of respect as if his name had been Naiviedo or Nairallas? To suggest that Oviedo has shown more than him is stretching it too far, if people just don't rate Naismith then fine but don't imagine what Oviedo will be like, no-one knows.

I still remember people calling for Pienaar not to be bought back because he was blocking Gueye's path to the team. Now that we've all seen Gueye, it's apparent how farcical that notion was. The unknown always seems more glamorous than what we can already quantify.

Alex, Naismith will never replace Osman because they don't even play the same position: one is a deep lying midfielder who monopolises possession and the other is a striker/wing forward. It wouldn't surprise me in a Moyes team if they did end up swapping positions one day but I don't think it would be to the benefit of either.

Tony J Williams
98 Posted 11/11/2012 at 15:27:43
It's quite funny that we are still having a go at his subs even though they won us the game.
Ernie Baywood
99 Posted 11/11/2012 at 15:34:40
Chris Donnelly - it's not just a case of one attack minded player for another. Mirallas doesn't give too much defensively but it's forgiven because his attacking play is so good.

We don't have another player like Mirallas so an all rounder was needed.

Although that's not really a comment on Oviedo. None of us have seen enough to know quite how he fits in this discussion.

Steven Kendrew
100 Posted 11/11/2012 at 15:43:34
Wise words from Andy Dunn at the Mirror.

In particular: "There is a creeping sense of vulnerability about this Everton team that Moyes will want to disperse ­before it becomes an ­issue. Everton cannot rely on this sort of late flurry on too many occasions."

And: ­"because a Champions League place is dangling in front of this club like a fat apple ready to be plucked."

Our passing was weirdly poor on Saturday although we did okay in the end.

COYB

Nigel Gregson
101 Posted 11/11/2012 at 16:10:15
It's about time Thomas Hitzlsperger got a start in the middle. Yesterday Phil got the majority of the game time and Hitzy got five minutes. But in those five minutes he looked composed and a hell of a good passer.

Of course we all know about his sweet left foot. He is a great intermediate solution to fill the Neville gap for a couple of years as backup / rotation center midfield player.

What happened to him during his time at West Ham and Wolfsburg?

Gavin Ramejkis
102 Posted 11/11/2012 at 16:25:49
I was surprised when Neville went off as I thought Moyes would have pulled him back to right back and send Coleman to the bench, happy to say his choice paid off.
Ciarán McGlone
103 Posted 11/11/2012 at 16:44:01
Interesting post James,

You acknowledge that Oviedo was 'good' against Leeds, but then tell us that we should not speculate on whether he'd be any good or not...

Can't quite get my head around that one.

ps: If Naismith had an exotic name he'd still be decidedly average.

Steve Marshall
104 Posted 11/11/2012 at 17:26:42
A couple of observations from yesterday's game. The kitman needs to sort Naismith out with a decent pair of boots - he spent most of the afternoon on his arse even when not on the ball. An alternative consideration to Neville in CM could be to use Jags - a couple of times yesterday he seemed to step up into CM with Neville dropping back to cover. Not the best performance yesterday but a good three points - sign of a good team winning when not playing well!
Christopher Kelly
105 Posted 11/11/2012 at 17:38:00
Thank you Ciaran, a voice of reason. Clearly Moyes has people on here brainwashed for 12 years thinking that there can't be quality or inventiveness in midfield. Maybe they should try watching another team besides Everton because what you'll find is there are a lot of dynamic ways of playing through the midfield. How people can accept Pip in the midfield is really beyond me at this point. He wouldn't even make the bench of the sky top 4 and those draws to me are more losses than wins to me so we shouldn't be "cheering" the fact that we tied bottom club QPR. He's 35 for Christ sakes and wasn't even that good when he was 25.

And you can take Moyes opinion over mine of course as his is the only one that matters. However, even last season Moyes said "he wouldn't have paid to watch us" so even his tactics can be called into question

Roman Sidey
106 Posted 11/11/2012 at 19:40:40
Tony J Williams, good point on the stats, but I was a little confused as to why he waited so long to make his "first real" sub. I know he was down to two after Mirallas went off early, but leaving 15-20 minutes to try and claw one back and get a winner was cutting it fine. That said, yes the subs did pay off.

The positive I'm taking is that we have the prospect of having two players in double figures by the new year. When was the last time we had two players in double figures by the end of the season?

James Martin
107 Posted 11/11/2012 at 20:28:51
Christopher Kelly

Fine if you want a pop at Neville, a lot have, definitely two sides to that argument, but claiming we don't have innovation in midfield? Along with Chelsea, we have been the benchmark for exciting midfield play this year. Osman, Pienaar, Mirallas – how are these players not inventive? We've passed most teams off the park.

Watch our goals from yesterday and you'll find they all came from the middle, our much vaunted flanks weren't involved and it showed the variety of our attacking play. Osman to Fellaini to Jelavic, straight up the middle against a very defensive team.

You can take any result in isolation that you want, yes we tied with the bottom team in the league (away, with ten men), any one can beat anyone, Wigan went and beat Tottenham at home, doesn't mean they're better than Tottenham though, sometimes it just doesn't go for you regardless of the perceived quality of the opposition. Anyone in this league can beat anyone.

If anything our new found variety in our attacking play bodes well for this sort of challenge as we have shown we can out-football the ball playing teams like Fulham, and find a way against defensive teams like Sunderland. Once again though bash Neville by all means (who is deputising for injured Gibbo), give Hitzlsperger a start instead (or Jags as someone has hilariously suggested), who knows what he'll bring against Reading, or we could just stay with the team that is unbeaten in 8 and fourth in the league. I wonder which option Moyes will be choosing?

Jim Knightley
108 Posted 11/11/2012 at 20:53:58
Neville bashers... please explain the alternatives currently?

A few things....

There is probably not an Everton fan on here who would have Neville in central midfield in an ideal world... however, with Gibson out and Fellaini playing his best football for us in an attacking midfield position, where does that leave us exactly?

Heitinga? – Has looked very poor when played in central midfield.

Jagielka? – He has also looked poor when played in midfield, and he at the moment, looks like the cb who should always be playing.

Fellaini? – The only viable alternative apart from Heitinga...but as stated, he is playing fantastically well in an attacking midfield position. We will lose something from attack if he drops back (And in central midfield, he has looked a less consistent player).

Hitzlsperger? – He is a viable long term alternative... but he simply hasn't had enough football. There is no way we could have expected him to start Premier League matches until this month.

Junior? – Looked poor in Carling Cup and has no experience.

For all the Neville bashing, he offers experience and discipline. We don't want him playing, but what else are we going to do? We lack squad depth, were denied a central midfield signing (dubiously), and with Neville in the team, have lost 1 in 20 matches?

And Christopher... yet another bullshit post. What has Neville not making the bench of a sky four team got to do with our club? This week, City had Garcia sitting on the bench... all £16 million of him. Arsenal had Ramsay and Oxlade on the bench, not to mention the fact that Song, Rosicky and Wilshere were all missing through injury. Chelsea had Romeu on the bench, Lamps injured, and Essien on loan... United, who would walk the league if they had a world class central midfield, had Cleverly, Anderson and Fletcher on the bench.... Clearly we are not operating under the same circumstances.

The point is, we are playing Neville, because we have one of the smallest squads in the league. We are completely outgunned in our attempts at a top four finish, and are competing against teams with far bigger squads and pockets. That we are in the race at all, is to do with Moyes. Moyes wouldn't pay to watch us last season... because we were playing with the carcase of a squad depleted by mass sales, and no incoming players. With a little bit of money, Moyes resuscitated us.

We need another central midfielder, we need Gibson back, but until then, I've yet to see a good alternative to Neville. The only realistic option in my opinion is Heitinga (because I do not agree with moving Fellaini), and Heitinga has looked very poor in central midfield.

Ciarán McGlone
109 Posted 11/11/2012 at 21:26:00
The alternative: Don't pick him.

I, for one, would much rather have another striker on the pitch.

As for Junior, he was hung out to dry in that match by Moyes who picked a shitty team and shitty formation.

Ian Bennett
110 Posted 11/11/2012 at 21:44:08
Just looking through the fixtures. We really need to get on a winning run. The competition have some tough games against each other. No pressure blues.
Graham Mockford
111 Posted 11/11/2012 at 22:18:09
Christopher #160

Another Swiss cheese post. What games have you been watching this year? Let me just remind you again, before this weekend Everton had more shots on goal than any other team in the top 5 leagues in Europe. Maybe we should be more inventive!!

If you can equate a draw (1 point) with a loss (no points) I suspect you were not in the top set at maths at school, we have already deduced you were not in the top set at English.

By the way when Phil Neville was 25 he won 7 international caps and played 25 games out of 38 in a Man Utd side that won the Premier League.

Of course I will take DM's opinion over you, you think Ciaran is the voice of reason for fuck sake.

Christopher Kelly
112 Posted 11/11/2012 at 23:29:34
I guess you have forgotten what Nil Satis Nisi Optimum means, Graham and Jim.

If you can accept mediocrity and not strive for the best, well then players like Neville will be good enough for you. Sorry but I'd prefer to aim a little higher than that. And, sorry but drawing against relegation teams to me is losing two points – two points we're keeping off the table. Not winning one. It's an opportunity lost.

Now while you may go have some Stella's after the game and talk about how great Neville's frosted tips look, I'm disappointed that we haven't – until this match – been taking all the points from some lower teams over this stretch. Its within these matches that we learn just how good we are and just how far Moyes has progressed and ultimately where we end up at the end of the season.

The season is long and we might just end up rueing these wasted opportunities. And unfortunately, Neville is the glaring weak spot in all of this. Other players have their faults and Neville has a strength or two but I can't imagine we're even having this conversation. No top manager would settle for throwing Neville into their starting midfield for over 2 months straight.

The team as a whole is obviously playing very well, there is just a championship level player sitting in our midfield. Now while you idiots say "I know fuck all" – I think you guys have a losers mentality. you think Sir Alex is happy drawing Wigan?? He'll fucking roil his players to no end...

And in terms of ideas, well Ciaran just said it. Another striker, Junior, Hitzlsperger (for a half) – even swap Coleman into that slot and move Nev back to RB ( not sure that one would work).

Or drop Fellaini back, bring Mirallas in and Naismith in to start (or if he's good, Oviedo into the left and Pienaar to the right?)

Who knows what will work but it's worth giving it a try. Especially if the alternative is keeping Neville in there.

And... Moyes wouldn't watch us because we sucked in the beginning of last year. We've been a selling club for 15 years, this is nothing new. Are you suggesting Jim, that Moyes was having a dig at BK with that quote?? NO, he was saying we were shite and he wouldn't pay to watch us. Simple, mate. He wasn't lying.

Paul Andrews
113 Posted 12/11/2012 at 06:26:26
Christopher @ 228,
what is a frosted tip?
Graham Mockford
114 Posted 12/11/2012 at 07:35:53
Christopher #228

It's often hard to follow your arguments due to your unique grammatical style. I am assuming English is not your first language.

However if I'm getting this right you come up with three alternatives to Pip.

A job share between a player who had his last contract terminated due to injury problems and a player who has never played a PL game but in his one Cup appearance against Leeds was so badly out of his depth he was subbed at half time.

Seamus Coleman!!!!

Or the one player who could do the job Fellani, which would been removing from his current position the best player in the PL this year.

So yes on that evidence to use your words, you know fuck all.

This has nothing to do with accepting mediocrity it is playing the best hand with the cards you have.

By the way I normally enjoy a glass of Cloudy Bay after the match.

Peter Bell
115 Posted 12/11/2012 at 07:54:42
Jim Knightley @202

"The point is, we are playing Neville, because we have one of the smallest squads in the league."

Which begs the question: why does DM have Ross Barkley out on loan?

Ray Roche
116 Posted 12/11/2012 at 08:06:18
Christopher Kelly @228

"We've been a selling club for 15 years, this is nothing new. "
Correction. We've been a selling club since we sold Alan Ball because it was "Good business".

Lineker was on the BBC on Saturday saying Everton were the best club side he'd played in and that he was sold, and not because he'd wanted to go.

Graham Mockford
117 Posted 12/11/2012 at 08:14:21
Peter

There is a very simple answer. DM does not think he is ready.

Anto Byrne
118 Posted 12/11/2012 at 10:47:06
Lineker became a millionaire the day he signed for Barcelona and this was in the day when our top players got paid in thousands as opposed to the millions they get today. Heysel was another year away, he has to be telling porkies.

Best striker we ever had in an Everton shirt since Dean, he had it all. Pace, two footed, good in the air and a footballing brain. We paid Leicester a paltry amount and god knows how much we sold him for but it would have been good business I'm sure.
Karl Meighan
119 Posted 12/11/2012 at 11:02:07
Neville gets ripped yet Coleman gets the learning his trade argument, Sunderland in going behind aimed every ball into the box in Colemans direction, I wonder why?

I probably wouldn't play Neville centre midfield but hes a better rightback at 35 than Coleman will be in his life. Coleman ball watchers is weak in the challenge and reacts when its to late. Going forward he is good apart from his final ball which is shite, imo he will cost us far more than he will create and I would take either Neville or Hibbert for there defensive play every game.

Peter Bell
120 Posted 12/11/2012 at 13:06:40
Graham, so DM does not have Barkley in the squad because he does not think he is ready. Using that theory, he clearly thinks Magaye, Junior and Anichebe are.

Baffling logic.
Andrew Ellams
121 Posted 12/11/2012 at 13:42:34
Peter, Junior has made 1 appearance in the league cup, Magaye will never be a 1st team regular and if we had a few quid Anichebe would never be within a mile of the 1st team. Barkley on the other hand is a star of the future and is out gaining some much needed experience to help him progess to the next step of beiing a permanent member of the squad.
Jim Knightley
122 Posted 12/11/2012 at 15:03:42
Ciaran... you would play another striker instead of Neville, so a 4-4-2, with attacking full backs and wide men; if our defensive issues are bad now, can you imagine what would happen if we lined up with such a suicidal formation every match? Tactically naive would be an understatement.

The only way for it to even partly function (and our results would suffer), would be to drop Fellaini back, and therefore lose his significant attacking contribution. Aside from that, 4-4-2 is simply outdated. An attacking midfielder can function just as effectively in terms of goals/assists as another striker, and offers better midfield protection.

And Barkley could not function as a central midfielder in this league. I really don't think it needs explaining. As an attacking midfielder... perhaps, but not at the moment.

And Christopher, please get it through your head — the Neville issue is nothing to do with mentality, it is to do with options. Some of your alternatives, are just plain idiotic.

Coleman in central midfield...really? you'd sort out our issues, by swapping Neville and Coleman, and placing them in less effective positions...(And for info purposes, I think Neville is too slow now to function as a fullback) Junior clearly isn't ready, and as previously mentioned, another striker, given our personnel, would be suicidal.

And why move Fellaini? Seriously, someone give me a reason. He has scored 6 goals this season, and assisted, in a predominately attacking position. He is having his best season... playing from an attacking position. He gives us an outlet, in an attacking position. But Messrs Ciaran and Chris, you'd have him move back, so we could accommodate... Vellios or Anichebe? Brilliant!!!

Peter, Barkley could be in this squad, obviously. But he is on loan, not because he is not good enough for the squad, but because he could do with a run of first-team football. In the long term, his loan will benefit us and him.

Ciarán McGlone
123 Posted 12/11/2012 at 15:51:59
That formation didn't seem to create too many problems on Saturday Mr Knightly.

Fellaini appeared to still get forward when necessary... and guess what, he scored two goals..

But hey ho, we'll just ignore that little fact.

You're point about Barkley is simply navel gazing, like the rest of your post.

He's been playing box to box for Sheffield... I see no logic why he couldn't do a similar job for us.

Too many people come onto this site with the simple aim of defending and deferring to Moyes decisions. It's pathetically lazy.

Graham Mockford
124 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:14:16
Ciaran

The 'fact' you claim we are ignoring is not true. If you read it again I'm sure you will work it out.

The fact you should not ignore is that in three seasons playing as a deeper lying midfield role he scored the grand total of six goals. In a more advanced role this season he has equalled that tally in 11 games and has been arguably the PL's best player. To move him out of that role would be madness.

Jim Knightley
125 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:09:58
Ciaran... you talk of laziness, and then refer to 25 minutes of a football match as evidence that a 4-4-2 (a massively outdated formation imo) with Fellaini given attacking license would work... I've seen teams play 4 strikers at the end of matches, and overturn a result... does that mean that 4 strikers would work? Or simply that, a home side pressuring an away side, a better side attacking a worse side, an attacking side against a defensive side... will often score goals at the end of a match and overturn a result?

We've seen Fellaini in a central midfield role throughout his Everton career, and in an attacking midfield role, and he has proved more consistent when played further up the field. Now a central midfield pairing of Fellaini and Osman, in which Fellaini would be given license to go forward, could not function effectively in this league. Please give me some examples, from recent periods, of effective 4-4-2 formations (with attacking wide men) without any defensively minded central midfielders? It is pure idiocy... pub football chat, by someone I assumed from previous posts, knew more about the game.

And Barkley has shown in a Sheffield Wednesday shirt his naivity. In the games I've watched, he has shown some attacking brilliance... but not the defensive capacity to function in the Premier League in a deeper position. We are not playing in the Championship... we are aiming for the top four of the most competitive league in the world. Barkley will in time, I hope, become a fixture of our first 11.

At the moment, he does not have the experience or defensive capacity to function as a central midfielder in our formation, and I do not think he has the ability to warrant playing as an attacking midfielder, given the performances of Fellaini in that position. He is good enough to be in the squad, but I think he will benefit from his time in the Championship, and grow more as a player, than on the bench of a Premier League team.

Ciarán McGlone
126 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:25:18
Graham,

Fellaini didn't play for 3 seasons as a deep lying midfielder... neither am I advocating playing him there.

Stop making things up.

Ciarán McGlone
127 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:27:05
Mr Knightley,

If it's not 'evidence' that the formation would work, then what is it?

It's certainly more than your conjecture on 'outdated systems'...

Nick Entwistle
128 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:30:45
When Sunderland parked the bus the formation went out the window. They generally do when you're camped outside someone's penalty box.
Jim Knightley
129 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:31:26
Sorry Ciaran...did you read my post? Or is it easier to ignore, than back up your claims?

25 mins is not evidence; as I said, teams win games with four strikers on the pitch at the end of the match... there are various other circumstances at work. Or do you want me to refer to pointlessly to an instant when we had a 4-4-2 which failed to pay dividends? Dumb logic.

Please give some recent examples of successful 4-4-2 formations with attacking wide players and no defensive central midfielders. And it is not conjecture about outdated systems — there is clearly an evolution of football formations at the moment, as illustrated throughout world football, and notably, on the international stage. 4-4-2s are becoming less and less common, because 5 midfielders has tactical benefits.

And — as stated by other posters and myself — removing Fellaini from a position where he is clearly more effective would be foolish.

Graham Mockford
130 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:38:35
Ciaran,

However you wish to describe it, he has not played in the role he has been deployed this year. The effect of that switch is plain for all to see.

Peter Lee
131 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:36:34
For the usual spot-on tactical deconstruction read the Executioners' Bong. Link at the bottom of the home page.

What won the game for us was less about moving to 4-4-2 and more about O'Shea moving up the pitch after Fellaini, creating the space for Fellaini and Osman to run into to make the two goals.

Football is a simple game but not as simple as some people here make out.

Jamie Barlow
132 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:31:34
Fellaini scored one on Saturday so I think we should ignore that little fact.
Barry Rathbone
133 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:40:08
Jim Knightley you're going to have a heart attack banging on about how right you think you are.

Just because a certain 25 mins of football makes you splutter in desperation doesn't mean it never happened - it did, we scored, we won.

Better that than sticking to some dogma that suits you.

Ciarán McGlone
134 Posted 12/11/2012 at 16:43:38
Jim,

You want evidence, apart from the evidence I've provided... hmmm.

A 4-4-2 can be just as fluid as a 4-5-1... to get hung up on the nomenclature of the system is foolish. Both Jelavic and Vellios (who was the second striker on Saturday if you missed it) are capable of dropping back and providing link up play with those playing midfield.

Our great strength this season has been out fluidity and balance.. To suggest we couldn't play this way without Neville on the pitch is ludicrous.

Graham,

This is not the first season Fellaini has played an attacking midfield role...

Graham Mockford
135 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:01:58
Ciaran,

Now who is making things up. Tell me when he has played the role he has been deployed this year, ie, playing at the front of the midfield three supporting the striker.

He may have played in a three but the way Moyes has set the team out this year is fundamentally different.

Jim Knightley
136 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:00:36
Ciaran... 4-4-2/4-5-1... teams play defensive midfielders. Song played for Arsenal, before him Flamini, most recently Diaby (who got injured, and then Arsenal's downturn started). City last season played Barry/De Jong, alongside a true box to box man with defensive capacity in Yaya... Newcastle played Tiote and Cabaye, Spurs Parker and others, Chelsea play Mikel, Barca play Busquets, Real play Alonso and now quite often, Essien, Bayern play Gustavo and others...etc etc. Any team of any note, will play at least one defensively minded midfielder, especially with a 4-4-2.

Now you can bullshit about fluidity all you like, but a 4-4-2 with Fellaini and Osman playing from the start of a match, will not function effectively... and playing that formation will necessarily result in Fellaini having to drop back, which will diminish his and our attacking threat.

And Barry... what the fuck are you talking about? Have you even read my comments? Or do you struggle with reading? I'm not spluttering with desperation over anything... I'm simply stating the obvious: a 4-4-2, without any defensive cover, with attacking wide men and full backs, will not work for us. Our major problem this season has not been in scoring goals, but in conceding them. We have looked dodgy against teams with counter attacking threats, and changing a working system will only increase our current issues.

I don't want Neville in the team... but I'd much rather see him than an inane system. It's not even as if we are keeping Hernandez or Dzeko out of the team — the strikers coming in will be Anichebe and Vellios.

Jim Knightley
137 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:10:05
And Ciaran... you still are dodging the question. You posit playing a 4-4-2, with attacking wide players, and no defensively minded midfielder (and giving one midfielder attacking license). Clearly you consider this a viable option... so please give some working examples.
Brent Stephens
138 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:02:25
Peter #311 – I thought Felli was on the edge of the box to receive the ball for both goals – I can't see that O'Shea was "moving up the pitch after Fellaini".
Barry Rathbone
139 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:23:43
Jim Knightley, well done. I thought the rabid Moyes Boys club had closed with the demise of Tunstall, Wilson and a few others but you share the same verbose, apoplectic blather so obviously not.

Just a tip, reduce your stuff by 50% you rant incoherently.

Christopher Kelly
140 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:33:16
Paul #234 - It's that beautiful California style hairdo with the ends of your hair highlighted. Think Lance Bass, 2008.

Jim Knightley
141 Posted 12/11/2012 at 17:33:41
Barry, do you actually have anything meaningful to add to the thread? i.e, actually some insight into tactics? Maybe you can give me some examples of the attacking 4-4-2s which apparently function without defensive minded midfielders. Clearly all the big teams are missing a trick... when words get out the likes of Busquets, Alonso, Song, Mikel, Tiote, Lucas, Parker, Gustavo will be finished... each one of them replaced with a striker. Actually... why do we need midfielders at all? I saw City over-turn a result with 4 strikers last season... what about 4-0-2-4?
Andy Walker
142 Posted 12/11/2012 at 18:34:54
Only 2 teams (Man C and Stoke) in the PL have conceded fewer goals this season than Sunderland. Thats how hard they are to break down. Scoring 2 in the last 15 mins deserves massive credit.
Patrick Murphy
143 Posted 12/11/2012 at 19:22:43
Anto – You say that "Heysel was another year away, he has to be telling porkies."

In fact Gary Lineker signed for Everton in the close season of 1985 which was after Heysel which happened on May 29 1985

He left before, during or after Mexico 86 World Cup depending on who is relating the facts.

Christopher Kelly
144 Posted 12/11/2012 at 18:31:31
Jim,

I don't think anyone is suggesting playing without a holding midfielder. I don't know where that came from – "fluid" does not mean leaving holes in the team, it just means support. If Busquets moves forwards on a play, Xavi will drop back and support to not get caught.

There are 10 outfield players on the pitch and certainly there is interplay and interchange between them. When Mirallas comes left, Pienaar doesn't stay there and overload the left, he moves right and balances the team, obviously. So when Felli goes forward, Osman can sit back and offer protection for that particular move. What's so hard about that?

Some other thoughts:

Barkley makes one cock-up and spends the rest of the season in the reserves – then of course gets shipped out. (Neville makes mistake after mistake and continues to be an automatic starter.)

  • Junior gets thrown to the wolves as well for a poor performance where the whole team was a mess. It was his first game and now he's on the Barkley treatment. Oviedo was a mess and looked much better for his substitute performance against the Shite. Neville plays with the first team and still is amiss. Neville can not be improved at this point, he's way too old and is only going one direction and that's down.
  • The fact that Hitzlsperger was signed off the street should tell you that in and of itself. If he was more match fit, he'd be starting in place of Neville right now. We scored 2 goals in 25 minutes and kept the entire season on track. Again, please don't underestimate this result.
The fact that Neville is out of position and Pienaar has to flap his arms in remonstration over and over like a dying duck should tell you that as well. This type of thing happens a lot although maybe not as demonstratively.

And lastly, the fact that Neville is a constant target among the supporters should tell you that you two are on an island in this matter.

And just for the sake of it, Fellaini for the 2009 season was setup as a 2nd striker. The problem is Moyes had been using a 4-4-2 so this position is a relative new one and one that's taken him a while to figure out where best to utilize him.

Jamie Barlow
145 Posted 12/11/2012 at 21:21:27
Christopher, you could say Neville is very good at just that. Fluid, or whatever. Whenever Coleman went forward, Neville covered at fullback. If Johnny or Jags went forward, he covered at centre half.

I don't think anyone on here wants Phil Neville in midfield. In an ideal world he wouldn't be. Some people just don't see an alternative.

Graham Mockford
146 Posted 12/11/2012 at 21:50:32
Christopher #339

You say "Fellaini for the 2009 season was setup as a 2nd striker."

Well my memory isn't what it was but I'm sure we had a little fella playing attacking midfield for 33 games that season.

Now what was his name? Er... Tim something or other.

James Martin
147 Posted 12/11/2012 at 21:40:49
The same logic that says Fellaini moved backwards, another striker came on, we won; therefore this works... Therefore Neville out, can also be extended in an equally inane manner to say, Neville played, we battered Swansea 3-0 away, we passed Fulham, Southampton and the RS off the park, therefore Neville stays in the team.

I think the credit should really land at Moyes's door for this one (much to the chagrin of some no doubt). When in the past would he have made a sub halfway through the second half when we were losing to go with Osman in midfield and Fellaini playing up top behind Jelavic and Vellios? Did he have an attacking carotid blow out or something?

Moyes has shown recently that he's not afraid now with the quality he has at his disposal to absolutely go for it and change a game with an outrageous attacking substitution. It worked, we got three points. Surely Moyes is being lauded as a tactical genius for this? No, of course not, he is yet again the tactical buffoon for playing Neville in midfield.

Ciaran, can you not see the difference between playing that formation all game long and playing it for the last quarter of a match when behind at home? That's the point Jim is making: formation flexibility is great but sticking with a starting formation that, more often than not, gives you a platform to win the game is also sensible too.

Considering the unjust criticism of Osman on here, and his recent sparkling form as our central creator probing forward, I find suggestions of him playing as a sole holding mid suicidal.

Why are we comparing Barkley to Neville? Does Barkley play holding mid? No, he plays in Osman's spot or perhaps Fellaini's, people can make a case for him taking either of those spots but please he has not got the discipline for holding mid.

And I'm not talking about "Oh Neville gave away a pass, or fouled a player or whatever therefore why are his mistakes better than Barkley's?" — I'm talking about the sort of discipline that requires you to be in the ideal defensive position on the pitch, covering every forward run, tracking every opposition run, for 99% of the game.

Barkley has shown at SW that he does not possess this discipline, he is more suited to a free attacking role (like the majority of young kids are). Look beyond one or two bad passes or mistakes in possession to see the work Neville and Gibson do off the ball. That is why they play holding mid for us, that's why Fellaini, Barkley, Osman or whoever don't because they don't put in this work, their game is suited to other positions.

If people want to advocate playing without a holding midfielder with a defense that's leaking all over the show and two flying wingbacks then be my guest, but I don't think you'd find many football managers who would agree with you. Oh wait I've got it, the perfect TW formation, 2-0-8, why hasn't anyone thought of this before!

Christopher Kelly
148 Posted 12/11/2012 at 23:51:46
I remember that little badge kisser Timmy of course, but as we all know, with a small team – and injury prone players such as Saha, Yakubu etc – players need to be flexible and Tim would sometimes be utilized as an out an out striker.

My first search found:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/15555/teams

I could probably find more examples and we could probably find some teams where Felli is playing further back as I agree, that was more Timmy's role.

But what's undeniable is the idea of playing Fellaini as a supporting striker certainly didn't just come to mind this season.

Graham Mockford
149 Posted 13/11/2012 at 00:26:58
Well, Christopher, you have certainly shown your colours for all to see.

You dare to call Tim Cahill 'a badge kisser' – are you serious? A player that never gave a fucking inch in a blue shirt.

You have to go on Google to back up your half-baked theories!

I went to 34 of the 38 games in 2009-10 (I was in Australia in October). You no doubt were playing Football Manager.

Anto Byrne
150 Posted 13/11/2012 at 01:16:06
I stand corrected. Heysel was 1985 and we, the League Champions, lost out on playing in the European Cup, along with all the other English teams who got banned. Was that why we sold Lineker? By the time the ban an was lifted, the team that was the best side around had been dissolved.
Christopher Kelly
151 Posted 13/11/2012 at 01:59:08
"Badge kisser" was meant not as an insult. Certainly didn't mean that as he's one of my favorite players of all time. Maybe I should have said "flag puncher" or just called him "Tiger." Either way that has no bearing on what this post is about which is the fact that if we want to be a top four side, we should be playing with top 4 tactics and a top four mentality.

With Gibson hopefully back from injury this weekend, and with Hitzlsperger gaining fitness, and with a loan/signing in January – with any luck we'll never see Neville back in midfield and we can stop dropping points to inferior teams. Even a super fan like yourself should be behind that.

Anto Byrne
152 Posted 13/11/2012 at 05:23:22
The Phil Neville debate rages on... In his prime, he was a quality player and has won the highest honours. It's now the twilight of his career and the astute manager that is David Moyes will be aware of this. He also has to contend with other ageing players: Distin and Hibbo and even Ossie are the wrong side of 30.

Not one for wholesale changes that disrupts the family, players will come and go. Saha, Cahill, Bily and the Yak have now departed. I expect we will see more arrivals and a few more exits. If Neville has another season in him after this one, I can't see it being a first choice.

He is doing okay in a team currently 4th. Yes, he has made a few mistakes along the way but he is not alone. Fortunately we didn't get punished as we have previously in games.

Had Sunderland managed to convert their clear-cut chances I think we would have been baying for blood or decrying our misfortune. We had good fortune on our side and they were pretty unlucky not to get something out of the game. Let's see what happens when Gibbo gets fit and maybe there will be a role for Barkley come 2013.
Ciarán McGlone
153 Posted 13/11/2012 at 08:02:21
Anyone who thinks this is Fellaini's first extended stint in an advanced position, clearly doesn't watch – irrespective of how many games they've been to.

James,

You appear to be missing the point that playing a 4-4-2 (as you and Graham see it) is not a rigid formation..

Have you watched Newcastle over the last couple of seasons? Or Man Utd with Rooney playing the free role?

Anyway, it appears that your vehement defence of Moyes blinkers you from seeing any alternatives (a distinctly differing position than none actually existing)..

Peter Bell
154 Posted 13/11/2012 at 08:29:08
Lineker was sold to Barcelona because the manager who sold him thought he would be following him their very soon after.
Graham Mockford
155 Posted 13/11/2012 at 08:53:57
Christopher Kelly

You take the biscuit! You say

"Either way, that has no bearing on what this post is about which is the fact that, if we want to be a top four side, we should be playing with top 4 tactics and a top four mentality."

Take a few seconds to check the current league table and tell me what position we are. Seriously you couldn't make it up.

James Martin
156 Posted 13/11/2012 at 09:06:34
You could just as easily say Ciaran that your vehement hatred of Neville equally blinkers you to recognising his role in a good team and going far enough to advocate a formation change just so he isn't in it.

Let's talk about Newcastle and Man U because it's not just they play 4-4-2 and it can be fluid so case closed. Last year anyone who watched Newcastle would know they played 4-3-3 for most of it. Tiote and Cabaye played behind Ben Arfa in a midfield three with Gutierrez on one side and Ba on thee other flank with Cisse uptop by himself. Ask any Necastle fan and they will say that their football has deteriorated this season due to Pardew trying to accomodate Cisse and Ba uptop by moving Ben Arfa to the wing in a 4-4-2. Same players playing but in a different formation, surely they should just flow into their old formation because 4-4-2 is so fluid, but they don't, they stick to what their manager has told them to do.

Man United have played a fluid 4-4-2 for a long time but they have in their possession a player that allows this tactical flexibility. Rooney can go from the midfield to the attack in a second converting any formation from 4-4-1-1- to a 4-4-2 due to his pace and his goal threat from distance. Add this to two lightning fast widemen and midfielders who can control possession well and they can play any formation they want. Note though that the midfield two of Carrick and Scholes barely move. Fellaini for his many talents is not this player, neither is Vellios, both are effective in the position they start in on the field but it doesn't offer much flexibility. For our 4-4-2 to work like Man U's which of the forwards would be able to drop deep and link the attack or create or play the other one in? I wish we had the players to play with a 4-4-2, but I don't think we do, not many teams in the league do.

Where is my vehement defence of Moyes? If anything I'm defending Neville a bit. If I thought Moyes was selecting the wrong team I would criticise him. Being fourth after 11 games I don't think he's selecting the wrong team. If he changed it to 4-4-2, moved Fellaini out of his best position and upset the balance of ateam playing that way for nearly a year successfully just to get Neville our reserve holding mid out of the team then yes I would criticise him. I'll leave Moyes to select the team and formation that has been winning for the past 12 months whilst you play fantasy football with teams that aren't Everton just to get Neville out.

Ciarán McGlone
157 Posted 13/11/2012 at 09:33:51
James,

You could just as easily say it..However you'd be wrong.

I certainly don't hate him (another lazy side swipe). And if you look around this site you'll find times when I've credited his performances..

I don't recall you doing anything other than coming on here to defend Moyes's decision making... (ie, picking Neville). You will of course prove me wrong if you've criticised anything he's done!

I happen to be of the opinion that Neville is currently the weak link in our team. The fact that we are generally playing well is frankly irrelevant, unless you come to the rather questionable conclusion that, because we are playing good football, that everyone in the team is playing good football. I don't.

ps: I'm glad you agree with me on the 4-4-2 point, despite the waffle.

Sam Hoare
158 Posted 13/11/2012 at 10:26:03
Ciaran, are you advocating playing a 4-4-2 with Jelavic and Vellios up front and presumably Fellaini and Osman in midfield?
Graham Mockford
159 Posted 13/11/2012 at 10:32:57
Ciaran

I have steered away from talk of formations. One man's 4-5-1 is another's fluid 4-4-2. However, in the four years Fellaini has been at the club, the overwhelming amount of games had Tim Cahill playing as the most advanced of our midfield players. That was the DM default setting.

Of course there were times Fellaini was pushed on when we were chasing games. The departure of Tim has seen a new role for Fellaini becoming the most advanced of our midfield players. It is pretty straight forward for all to see.

Unless you replace Phil Neville with someone who is going to play deeper than Fellaini, you will change his current role or the way the team is being set up. It's not rocket science. Now that is maybe what your are actually arguing... and fair enough, it is a point of view, just not one I agree with.

James Martin
160 Posted 13/11/2012 at 10:43:21
Well Ciaran you'd know a lazy side swipe if you saw one wouldn't you. Great way to re-affirm your own opinion though isn't it? Throw whatever unfounded accusation you want at anyone and then devalue whatever they say by degrading it to 'a lazy side swipe'. If you read carefully enough through all the 'waffle', you'll find that I am most certainly not in agreement that a 4-4-2 would work at Everton, it has only worked at Man U because of the players they have available. If you think Vellios and Jelavic can drop into midfield and link the play the same way Rooney does then fine but I certainly don't share that opinion and clearly neither does Moyes.

Don't confuse pointing out your tactical naivety with defending Moyes. Jim was making the point that playing your formation without a holding midfielder was tactically inept considering the players we have at our disposal. Equally you contradicted yourself by advocating a 4-4-2 with Fellaini as one of the midfield two pushing on after claiming that Moyes hung Junior out to dry in the Leeds game with a terrible formation and team which, if I remember correctly, was the only time this season we've played 4-4-2 with Fellaini in the midfield 2.

I've criticised Moyes plenty of times on here, most recently for his handling of Cahill towards the end, his abuse of Osman on the wing, his refusal until recently to break up the impotent Rodwell Fellaini axis, and his selection of Jagielka and Distin together, a partnership that I don't think works. Now that he's found a midfield balance that is getting the best out of Fellaini and Osman and seems to have realised that Heitinga with his younger years is better being favoured than Distin well my criticism for the time being has dried up. Contrary to your belief people do not just come on here to defend Moyes with no other objectives than that, that would probably be by anyone's judgement the definition of a lazy side-swipe. But I'm sure you'll argue differently, no doubt contradicting yourself a few times on the way.

Ciarán McGlone
161 Posted 13/11/2012 at 11:01:07
"Throw whatever unfounded accusation you want at anyone and then devalue whatever they say by degrading it to 'a lazy side swipe'."

--------------------

It's not an 'unfounded accusation'... it's a fact.

You accused me of 'vehement hatred' of Neville – I've seen you accuse other people of it too. In my case, I'm telling you that your 'accusation' is untrue. Ironic really, given the above.

You can accept it's bona fides or not, it really doesn't matter to me.

As an untruth, it's a lazy sideswipe used to proliferate a poor argument.

James Martin
162 Posted 13/11/2012 at 12:01:01
Ciaran I never denied that I made a lazy sideswipe, but your accusation that I (and others you have not identified) only ever come on here to defend Moyes has been proven to be unfounded by the evidence I've just supplied you with. Therefore it is not a fact is it? Therefore by your own logic as an 'untruth' 'its a lazy sideswipe used to proliferate a poor argument'.
Peter Bell
163 Posted 13/11/2012 at 17:09:17
Gents,fed up hearing all this formation and tactical rubbish. I have played, coached and watched football for years.

If you want a brilliant team, you need brilliant players; if you want a good team, you need good players; if you only have average players,you get an average team

Look at Di Matteo: he did nothing at WBA with average palyers; went to Chelsea and won the Champions League, Why? Because he had Champions League class players.

Jim Knightley, fed up listening to your inane drivel.
Stop making a simple game sound complicated.
Anthony Flack
164 Posted 13/11/2012 at 17:34:25
Crikey, sounds like quite a few people play online Football Manager with their mouse in one hand and their .... in the other.

Broadly Peter is right.

Andy Crooks
165 Posted 13/11/2012 at 19:13:40
Peter, words fail me. I happen to disagree with Jim Knightley but what you have just posted, well, you make a simple game sound... Who in God's name did you coach?
Christopher Kelly
166 Posted 13/11/2012 at 20:40:11
When they start handing out 1/3 season trophies let me know, Graham. Do we only get 1/3 of the money?? Do we get to send 1/3 of our team to the Champions League Qualification match? I'm not sure how it works in your world.

Let's get back to the point. We've had the easiest schedule of any team in the league thus far and Moyes is still not totally happy with our point total. Neither am I and neither should anyone. I'm happy we're in 4th right now and playing attractive football but we all know how much that means at the end of the season.

If you wanna be part of the Walter Smith brigade, fly that flag, buddy. We have too much talent to waste it with a donkey in the middle. Watch the last 25 minutes of the Sunderland game and tell me what's so hard about it?? Even Hitzlsperger (after a few rusty touches) does more in one turn and pass to Naismith than I have seen from Neville since he's been here

http://efcfeelinblue.com/fellaini-praises-moyes-for-tactical-switch/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=fellaini-praises-moyes-for-tactical-switch

John Crawley
167 Posted 13/11/2012 at 21:44:58
Christopher Kelly I agree with most of what you are saying but that comment about Hitzlsperger doing more than Neville has in the time he's been here. Well to put it simply is idiotic. Sure Neville isn't the greatest in the centre of midfield but by and large I think he's done a decent job standing in for Gibson. He was excellent in the derby and his passing has been much improved. I think the problem Moyes has is that the board have failed miserably to provide the funds for better squad players. Anyway think you can make your point without the unnecessary slagging off of Phil Neville.
Graham Mockford
168 Posted 14/11/2012 at 08:47:06
Christopher,

As usual, more of the same guff masquerading as an argument. You said we should have 4th place ambitions, I pointed out we were actually in 4th place. Simple really.

You point out Moyes is not happy with the points total. Why do you think that is? It is because he knows we have dominated games and only ended coming away with a point. By definition we have played well and not got the result we deserved. We are playing our best football in 25 years, yet you like some others think we should be changing that.

By the way one of your earlie suggestions was Junior and Hitzlsperger in midfield . I did notice that the pair of them played together in central midfield in the defeat by Blackburn U21s on Monday!

I'm not sure what the 'Walter Smith' brigade is, so couldn't confirm wether I want to be part of it. However the sheer inanity of that paragraph has already been commented on by John.

Finally Christopher I know you are a bit of a dim bulb but it really would be worth having a few opinions of your own rather than cutting and pasting others. Let me let you into a little secret, just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it is true.

Nick Entwistle
169 Posted 14/11/2012 at 09:49:47
Tedious.
Ciarán McGlone
170 Posted 14/11/2012 at 10:14:11
Haha, for once I agree Nick.
Graham Mockford
171 Posted 14/11/2012 at 13:17:19
Nick

you only have to read them, I have to write them!!!

Guy Rogers
172 Posted 14/11/2012 at 13:50:00
What a drama! Neville is shit, but a great bloke and all of that baloney!

Leave Barkley where he is and, fingers crossed, he will be the answer next season.


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