Martinez: Genius or Insane?

Russell Smith 18/01/2016 115comments  |  Jump to last

Following yet another last-minute defensive capitulation many contributors to ToffeeWeb are increasingly calling for Roberto Martinez’s removal and replacement by a more “savvy” manager who can combine our undoubted attacking prowess with an unyielding defensive strength.

Many are rightly citing that this is the best (and probably youngest) squad of players we have had at the club for many years, and that as such a talented group they should be challenging for a top-four spot, especially as no one team is dominating the Premier League this year. The big problem to many is Martinez, who gets unrelenting criticism for almost every decision – or non-decision – that he apparently makes.

While I am not entirely convinced that Martinez is the right man to lead Everton, we should look at what he has done since he joined the club.

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In the final two to three years of our previous manager's reign this site was bouncing with indignation on how boringly predictable we were; every game being a repeat of the previous match, – favourite and aging players being chosen week in week out irrespective of individual or collective performance, same system home and away, players being allowed to leave because we hadn’t tied down their contracts (Dan Gosling), no adventure in our play, and young players only chosen by injury necessity and then discarded as soon as an “old faithful” was deemed fit enough to start. There was also the “dithering” at every transfer window where we missed out on more players than we purchased.

Martinez has addressed many of these issues. He may talk in riddles and over-the-top superlatives after every game which drives the majority of fans to distraction, but he clearly has the ear of many young talented players whom he has managed to bring to the club despite competition from other more “desirable” teams. (Could Moyes have done this?) He does this on the whole under the radar, never speaking about signing players until the deals are done, and he does then play them and give them time to develop. He has tied the majority down on long contracts that put the club in a position of strength during transfer windows, as shown with John Stones at the start of the year. The contracts he has tied Lakaku, Stones, Galloway, Coleman etc into will mean that irrespective of how we eventually fare this year we can keep these players next year unless the club wants to sell.

Martinez does have a stubborn streak and it would not surprise me if he insists on these young stars sticking to the contracts they were happy to sign in the past few years. We are playing with great flair in almost every match. Some of our attacking play is a joy to watch (something which we only produced spasmodically under Moyes) and it is not surprising that we lost a little of our attacking edge when we adopted a more defensive attitude in the recent games against Spurs and City. The “balance” is still a work in progress.

While Martinez also tends to have favourites (Howard/Kone), he is undoubtedly phasing out many of the older players, whilst recognising that the “better” aging players may still offer something from the bench (Osman and Piennar). The latest proposed signing from Leeds would indicate that Hibbert will not feature again, while he has already brought in other young developing talent to eventually take over from Jagielka and Baines in the years to come.

The current and potential resale value of this squad is far greater than anything we have had in the past, and with the influx of the TV monies, we may not be forced to sell to balance the books and the team’s development can continue.

Martinez clearly has a vision that includes the predominance of youthful players supplemented by a few experienced heads, and he is, despite many misgivings, starting to put this plan into action. If we can keep this squad together next year, add the much needed left-sided attacker and resolve the goalkeeping position we may see the attack/defence balance realised.

The flaw in all this however is that Martinez may not be able to hang on to all these “gems” while he assembles the final pieces of the jigsaw. His refusal to deal with the Howard situation means that a golden opportunity has been missed this season, and even if Robles is promoted next year we cannot be sure he is the “right” answer until he has played 20 or 30 consecutive games, by which time another season will be over. The team’s inability to see out games from winning positions – or to only perform for 45-60 minutes in many games – is an indication of something missing both mentally and in fitness terms. These are issues that Martinez must address and he needs to be far more ruthless in his choices. All managers have to make hard choices, the successful ones get the majority of those choices right.

In just over two years of Martinez, however, can we really say that we are not in a better place in terms of our squad, the quality of the football we play, and the long term future potential of the team?

When you analyse this season to date the difference between drawing and winning many of the games this year has been a very fine line based on a few small incidents, something that, incidentally, went in our favour during Martinez’s first season but have repeatedly gone against us this season. Some say there is only a fine line that between genius and insanity. Which side of the line is Roberto on?

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Reader Comments (115)

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Ross Edwards
2 Posted 20/01/2016 at 18:53:58
'Insanity: Doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results' - Einstein

So yes, he is insane. But then again, some geniuses have their eccentricities.

Andy Crooks
3 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:00:15
Russell, he is no genius and insane is a very unfair label. I just think he is a mediocre coach with a self belief that is staggering and entirely unjustified. He has all the tools in his locker to destroy our club and walk away. However, we are stuck with him.
Phil Davies
4 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:18:15
This time last year I was calling for him to go, now I’m not sure. Without a doubt, the defence and goalkeeper are the major problem, both can be sorted easily. A defensive coach à la Bould at Arsenal to teach the likes of stones, Funes Mori, Galloway and the other younger players better defensive techniques, and the goalkeeper situation should sort itself out the minute Howard leaves.

Just looking at the squad it is without doubt the best squad we’ve had in decades, that’s down to Martinez. The midfield is solid, creative and capable of controlling the game for large parts. The forward line is impressive and at times unplayable.

The main problem is whether Martinez acknowledges the problems, and Wigan suggests he doesn’t. Then what do we do?

Ray Said
5 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:23:30
We are 11th with 29 points. We wont be in Europe next season-we could be in the championship though? The players we have that are/may become top quality (Lukaku, Stones especially) will have their agents in their ears and will want to be out the door so they can pull in £100k per week and the squad will break up. That's not genius.
Ian Hollingworth
6 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:30:22
A good, well-written article. However, he is no genius and he managed to attract a perception that he was a top coach.

I will state again his Wigan team was relegated. Name me a British manager who would get to manage a club like Everton the season after he had relegated a previous team. I believe RM believes his own dreams and has the perfect Chairman in BK who thrives on the dream and stories.

We do have the best squad we have had for years but that alone does not guarantee success. Players still have to work hard and want the success and they have to be drilled in all aspects of the game by the manager / coaching staff.

Barry Thompson
7 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:39:48
He's just tried to sign a player whose surname is an anagram of barmy.
Sid Logan
8 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:41:00
You will never solve a problem unless you recognise that you have a problem.

Martinez has shown himself to be stubborn about recognising he has faults in his management philosophy but he may not be beyond redemption. We see only yesterday that he is now acknowledging the virtues of set pieces.

However his arrogant side shows when he tries to link his new found discovery on set pieces to the abilities of Funes Mori. Presumably before him we didn't have players capable of taking advantage of set pieces.

After the Chelsea game he defied anyone to criticise his game management. Leighton Baines was doing that.

Until he recognises our failing maybe something to do with his unchangeable philosophy we will remain a mid-table team. We may only need need small adjustments to the plan but we need them just the same.

James Stewart
9 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:45:59
Neither at present is is just inept. Neglects too many of the basic fundamentals in football too be successful.
Garry Corgan
10 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:48:11
"While I am not entirely convinced that Martinez is the right man to lead Everton, we should look at what he has done since he joined the club."

It’s a results business and what I’ve seen, regardless of anything else, is that he’s taken a club that was regularly finishing 5th and 6th to being a club that may well finish in the bottom half two seasons running.

There is a case to be made that there are mitigating circumstances, e.g. the replacement of an ageing squad, but the fact remains that we are currently defensively poor despite having four of the best individual players in the league, three of whom are England internationals. If he had had a better defensive record at Wigan I would be less concerned but somebody is going to have to figure out and rectify that issue.

Some say our defensive issues are down to individual mistakes – not a theory I subscribe to – but, if so, those individuals need replacing and that, also, is the manager’s job. Let’s not fiddle while Rome burns.

Peter Laing
11 Posted 20/01/2016 at 19:49:56
Howard Kendall initially struggled in his first spell, Alex Ferguson was very close to being dismissed at Manchester United, and the margins in football are as we know very thin. Who would have predicted the demise of Mourinho? If Martinez leads the Club to silverware and we retain our Premier League place, will he be vindicated? I’m not suggesting that Martinez is a genius; he certainly isn’t insane.

He has, as others have mentioned, assembled the most exciting team in a generation, still working under the tight purse strings modus operandi of Kenwright and the board. My preference is that we should back him; what’s the other option, dispense with his services and go through the same story as most other Clubs who hire and fire with no real change in fortunes?

Joe Foster
12 Posted 20/01/2016 at 20:14:46
Below average Premier League manager. Possibly a decent Championship manager.
Martin Mason
13 Posted 20/01/2016 at 20:20:28
The problem is that we are losing the 50:50 matches and even the 60;40 ones that we should be winning. A good manager will win most of the 50:50 matches as Everton did under Kendall Mk 1 and Man Utd did under Ferguson even winning the 10:90 games they had no right to.

The difference between those who do this and those who flatter to deceive, like 2016 Everton, is that the ability to do this defines the difference between a great coach and a great "manager". RM is almost great but in the end is just a good attacking coach who would be successful under a good manager but who will never be that good manager.

Paul Jeronovich
14 Posted 20/01/2016 at 20:20:34
Knows only one way which will probably be his downfall. When we do attack, the football has been amazing at times though.
Raymond Fox
15 Posted 20/01/2016 at 20:31:11
He’s definitely preventing us winning trophies and finishing in the top 4 – look how many times we’ve done it in the last 20 years! I was becoming tired of being successful, it was becoming too easy!

We are 150/1 to be relegated, so don’t come up with that old chestnut. Jamie summed it up yesterday when he said what have we got to lose!

Kevin Tully
16 Posted 20/01/2016 at 21:20:16
I would rather pay to watch us play football under this feller than either Walker, Smith or Moyes. I am not particularly bothered about the 6th/7th placed trophy we managed under dour Davey, and I sat through every single home game throughout his whole tenure.

I know we are going to go right at Man City this time next week. That’s the mentality that has been lacking for too long at our club. Even if Martinez can’t take us to the promised land, I’ve got a feeling he is laying the foundations for a young passing side that will stand us in good stead for the future.

We’ve just drawn at Man City & Chelsea (being robbed in one of those games) and Blues are screaming that this manger is clueless. I will be amazed if the next manager is called a failure for not winning these types of games.

The results aren’t good enough, the dropped points are unacceptable, but I would rather have Martinez in charge next week at City than any of the other names mentioned on here.

Posters are right to point out that his win ratio is really quite poor, but personally, I couldn’t give a rat's arse about being mid-table if we finally end our 21-year trophy drought.

Jamie Crowley
18 Posted 20/01/2016 at 21:32:57
Stubborn genius.

How's that for compromise!!

Anyone getting frustrated I'll say it again and yes, I'm a broken record.

Patience. This man is building something very special.

Colin Glassar
19 Posted 20/01/2016 at 21:39:22
I would say he is GenSane. He has a bit of the genius and, like most managers, is slightly insane.

Like Kevin Tully, I’d much prefer to watch our football today than the effective drudgery I had to endure under the previous regime.

We’ve gone from a team which could defend but struggled to score, to a free scoring team who struggle to defend. Find the balance and we could be great.

Lee Courtliff
20 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:00:39
Kevin Tully, I agree entirely mate. That 7th place trophy was all well and good but got a bit stale after a while.

What we have now is incredibly frustrating but also very exciting and interesting to watch.

Dave Abrahams
21 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:06:39
Jamie (#18), I like your style and enthusiasm for our team, I think it is quite remarkable, seeing as you live thousands of miles away from Liverpool... keep it up, and I hope you make it to Goodison Park one day.

I don’t agree with a lot of what you say but I’d love some of your confidence that Robbie is going to create an outstanding team at Everton. Jamie, you can say something a million times; it doesn’t mean it will happen... just hope it does, and keep your confident predictions up – it will not do any harm. Good luck with your company and good health.

By the way, if you’ve got any vacancies for a cannie lad, I make a lovely cup of tea!!!!

Dave Ganley
22 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:15:04
Ah the constant rewriting history from the Moyes haters/Martinez apologists. No we never entertained, we never scored goals, we never put teams to the sword, we never had GP rocking and teams never feared coming to GP. Erm... actually we did: the team with Arteta, Cahill, Pienaar, Mirallas, Baines and Coleman were as entertaining as hell. The football was intricate and passing incisive, only missing a proper centre-forward. We put 7 past Sunderland, beat the RS 3-0, regularly beat all the top sides at GP, even red nose Fergie dreaded coming to our ground. It was bouncing and rocking especially for the big games and get this, GP was a fortress. Fans steamed away happy and contented. Moyes just couldn’t get his head round winning the big games. Bit like Everton's phobia with the RS, struggled to conquer it so had to go.

Fast forward to present day. I keep repeating this but, forgetting the utter disaster last season, we have been okay against some teams (mainly teams below us) and pretty awful against others (mainly teams above us). People keep assuming the defence is an easy solution. Its not. If it were that easy, the "genius with a plan" Martinez would have solved it. I'm quite sure he doesn't like not winning games. As it is, he has absolutely no idea how to defend and never will. It's been a serious issue wherever he has managed. He wont learn, same as Moyes never learnt how to win the big games. Gung ho football just doesn't work. Even the free-scoring Man Utd team of the late 90s never went gung ho like we try to do. Mainly because they knew it would leave them vulnerable at the back and Fergie, a winner, would never allow that.

I don't have a problem with people wishing to believe in Martinez. In a way, I envy you your optimism and blind faith in that, when we are failing to win games week after week, you still believe. That's fair enough. It's not an opinion I share but each to their own. But let's not start rewriting history that we were never entertaining under Moyes just because it suits the argument of how supposedly amazing we are now. I'd be more convinced (aside from the disjointed product on the pitch) if the atmosphere inside GP didn’t make a morgue seem like a party house.

Kevin Tully
23 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:21:06
Dave, where does anyone say we were never entertaining under Moyes??

After 11 full seasons, it all got a bit predictable. Same pattern of play & same formation. Of course there were many exciting games under Moyes. You’re just constructing your own strawman to make an argument nobody has presented.

Joe Foster
24 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:26:33
Probably as predictable as throwing away decent leads in games now I would think.
Oliver Molloy
25 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:27:29
Jamie @20,

Lukaku and Stones. They are part of your "something special", I would presume, and I agree with you that this group of players have huge potential if The Incredible One can keep them together and add a wee bit more quality to the squad, we could have what you describe.

Unfortunately I don’t think winning a cup is going to keep the above players at our club beyond this season. This season was our big chance to really challenge for a Champions League spot. Our opportunity has now gone and Champions League football was most likely the only carrot we had in convincing these players to stay. Trying to replace our main striker will be tough, Stones would be easier.

These are different times to when Howard Kendall and Ferguson managed. Nowadays, top players are like the owners, they want success and they want it now along with the money and glamour.

I hope The Incredible One succeeds in his vision for our club, but he has got to stop the "goals against" tally – and quickly!

Dave Ganley
26 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:28:08
Just go to post 19, Kevin, and I quote "effective drudgery I had to endure under the previous regime". Now I understand that doesn’t exactly say 'not entertaining' but it's not particularly complimentary about the football played in previous years.
Chris Gould
27 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:33:28
Roberto is my man!!! I’ll forgive the many blips because, like Jamie, I believe he is onto something. I also believe that his way is the only way we can hope to be successful.

Look beyond the obvious frailties, their is something very special growing in the distance. Have patience and enjoy the unpredictability. You will be rewarded.

Dave Ganley
28 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:45:39
And while you're at it Kevin, instead if making false statements yourself, try addressing the other points too, like the rubbish atmosphere at the ground and the awful displays this season against teams who know what they’re doing... games like Watford, Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs away, RS, Norwich in the cup, Norwich and Bournemouth 2nd halves, Spurs 1st half at home.... the list goes on.

Where was the free-flowing entertaining football there?

Kevin Tully
29 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:46:56
It’s all about personal opinions, Dave. You may have liked the football under Moyes and thought it was great. To label everyone haters to say they thought the football under Moyes was mostly predictable / boring / effective always starts an argument nobody wants.

Moyes did a great job whilst he was here, but I personally thought he did it at the expense of pushing on to the next level, or taking any chances, especially with younger players like Barkley. I would have liked to have seen what he could have achieved if backed financially, but we did have around the 8th largest wage bill in the Premier League for most of his time with us.

I think the two managers are chalk & cheese. The fact Martinez has erected pictures of all our successes at Finch Farm to remind the players they have won fuck all at this great club sums him up. To me, Moyes always wanted to airbrush our history from recent memory, to convince everyone he was the "Moyesiah" who had rescued us from total obscurity.

Kevin Tully
30 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:50:21
Dave, that’s a little desperate, asking me to defend performances in some halves of a football game. I can see you’re a little rattled so I’ll leave it there. Thanks.
Trevor Peers
31 Posted 20/01/2016 at 22:56:34
Roberto’s genius is in being able to fool a lot people, that he knows how to be a successful Everton football manager. Results, up to now, say he is not a success; to think otherwise is almost insane.

Some of the football we have played, this season, has been pleasing on the eye, but without the vital points, it’s meaningless. Winning the League Cup would hardly single him out as a genius, although it would be very welcome.

Nigel Gregson
32 Posted 20/01/2016 at 23:24:15
Well said, Colin. To add, I think developing that attacking nous is far tougher than defensive organization, which is the bread and butter of the likes pof Pulis and big Sam.

If we want a raw young attacking team that plays with flair and arrogance rather than the KITAP1 rubbish, then we’ll just have to accept that this team will make mistakes – especially when we have such inexperienced defenders for a large part of the season. I also have a theory about why our experienced pros seem to make more individual mistakes under Martinez as well, but I’ll keep that for another day.

Tim Howard is where I disagree with Martinez. I thought he needed to go at the beginning of the season and I think that even more so now. Hopefully he gets his MLS contract and says goodbye for the memories at the end of this season.

Derek Thomas
33 Posted 20/01/2016 at 23:33:19
Apologies in advance Russell, I read the title and the following popped in my head 'Both Probably'...I'll go back and read it now to see how it ends.
James Flynn
34 Posted 20/01/2016 at 23:35:37
Neither.
Danny Broderick
35 Posted 20/01/2016 at 23:44:42
To be a manager, you have to be stubborn. If not, you’d be chopping and changing your team every week trying to appease the fans, and even amongst us we all believe we are right – and yet we all have different views!

The truth is we have got a good squad now with a lot of potential. We have no problem scoring goals, but we let in too many. Can Martinez get the balance right in the current set up?

I would wager not. There’s nothing in his managerial career that suggests he can tighten up a defence.

I think we need a Steve Bould type like Arsenal have, to counter balance Martinez’ obvious attacking flair. We are not a million miles away with our current squad. But we are a bit soft and naive with our refusal to see a game out. If we can develop that side of our game, the sky really would be the limit. But Martinez would first have to recognise this weakness for that to happen...

Andy Crooks
36 Posted 21/01/2016 at 00:36:56
Danny, I think you are arguing against yourself a bit. You believe managers should be stubborn but rightly suggest that Martinez won’t tighten our defence. I say won’t because any decent coach CAN. I actually think that his project is about him rather than Everton. It seems to me that he is trying to prove that his methods are let down by his players. He is too diplomatic to say it, of course.

He is creating a Martinez brand and he may well develop it elsewhere with more money and different players. However, this Premier League was there to be won this year and we needed a pragmatic coach to do it. I really think he’s not too far from what we need and his supporters on here might be right. I think that without investment we need someone quirky with a plan. To me, that is not Roberto.

Michael Winstanley
37 Posted 20/01/2016 at 00:38:33
I bet Martinez is seething. These players he puts so much trust in are messing up his dream, so near and yet so far.

I bet he sits the team down and shrugs ’what the fuck happened out there?’ I don’t believe Martinez coaches the players to react and play as badly as they do.
Tim Howard take a bow son.

I believe (hope) Martinez’s focus on development of the player will produce results in the long term. If he loses Lukaku and Stones in the summer I’d be surprised, as stated earlier both are on long contracts and we don’t need to sell.

Cleverley, Barry, McCarthy, Besic, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lennon, Lukaku, Funes Mori and Stones. All good players and they want to play for Martinez. I expect Baines to play himself into first choice England left back in the summer.

Howard, Jagielka, Coleman and Mirallas are all Moyes men although he might want to keep Coleman and in reality he should be able to find a defensively solid centre back pairing between Jagielka, Funes Mori, Stones.

I wish Mirallas was as good as he thinks he is and Timmy ’Hands’ Howard is a split second away from slapstick insanity. Our defence is weak. That’s just one area he needs to address.

Stick Robles in and make Stones Captain.

Derek Thomas
38 Posted 20/01/2016 at 00:46:52
Kevin @16... ’I don’t care as long as we win a Trophy’ – I’d be there with Martinez’s blue and white army as well, I mean you can’t knock winning at Wembley can you.

And then what?

With that icing on the cake as proof, Martinez will be even less likely to change.

And then what?

It sometimes happens that managers who get to cup finals get contract extensions (Kendall?) some have to wait until they win it, it varies.

And then what?

With that vote of confidence tucked in his back pocket. What incentive does Martinez... and now the Board have to change.

And then what?

All the problems that have vexed this site, take a trawl back through the archives and look at all the variations on a theme the titles have in common. Come April and or the end of the season, all of the problems that vex us now will still be there because nothing, in real terms, will have changed.

And then what?

As may be likely after the Euros and the window, one or maybe more of the few things that delight us may not even be here... and then what?

It seems to me that too many people have bought a powerball ticket in ’the Martinez can do it – eventually lottery’. despite knowing or should that be refusing to see that both here and at Wigan he was not big on defense and if he hasn’t changed by now he won’t.

I’m also convinced that just as Moyes was somewhat like Buchan, Martinez is somewhat like Carey, a purist. What we need is some one who is somewhat like Catterick to come in and sign a bit of pragmatism / mongrel and add it to the softer purer side. His first signing was a goalkeeper... that ’ll do for a start.

Anto Byrne
40 Posted 21/01/2016 at 02:36:06
Everton is a massive club – let's not forget this. The guy is under enormous pressure from the fans to get some balanced play.

The foundation of a good side is defense and we all see the limitations. We want a new keeper and have for several seasons. We need an experienced playmaker and better cover for Lukaku.

Hopefully this mad genius will resolve these issues as ultimately it may cost him his job. Even the board will recognize we have a problem and their patience is being stretched.

Bobby Angwin
41 Posted 21/01/2016 at 03:54:57
Yes we’ve had some disappointing results but I can only really think of the home Man Utd and Watford games where we were disappointing.

He’s definitely got a long term plan and with a bit of deserved luck we’d be sitting in 6th place talking about pushing for the top 4 – fine lines indeed.

One thing is totally obvious though: players want to play for him. Besic, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Jimmy Mac are only here because of him and people need to remember that. As depressing as it is for fans to hear, players don’t give a shit about EFC per se, but will play for good managers despite the team.

I am confident about us winning the league cup. Martinez is a winner, I do think he got this job solely on the back of the FA Cup win and he knows more than anyone how urgent the need for silverware is for this great club.

Brian Porter
42 Posted 21/01/2016 at 06:37:24
I don’t think he is actually insane, but he is deluded and filled with a very misplaced brief in his abilities. That makes him stubborn beyond belief, hence his ludicrous statement that we ’won’ the Chelsea game. Nothing will change his inept in-game management or force him to change his self-destructive tactics unless BK or similar takes him aside and gives him what amounts to a verbal warning, e.g."Unless you start to recognise that your philosophy isn’t working and also do something about the points we are losing due to your intransigence over the Tim Howard situation we will be seeking a new manager for next season."

Better teams than us have sacked their managers for far less than the situation he has got us into and for me, after 57 years following Everton, I now seriously envisage us being dragged into a perennial relegation fight under Martinez.

Under Moyes, love or hate him, we were a top eight club apart from a couple of glitches. Make no mistake, the only way we are going at present under RM is down, down, down.

Douglas McClenaghan
43 Posted 21/01/2016 at 06:39:06
Get rid of that nincompoop Howard and things will look up. With a decent goalie we will be much improved defensively.
Darryl Ritchie
44 Posted 21/01/2016 at 08:05:49
I think our problems at the back don’t lay solely with Howard. I just don’t believe that an experienced Phil Jagielka and a promising John Stones, are as good as an in-form Sylvan Distin and a younger Jags. Distin was a stud at the back, and while Stones is better on the ball, I don’t think he is as good in the pure defensive side of things. Not yet anyway.

Howard is Howard. An experienced (as in: 'old'), reliable (as in: 'tends to make the same mistakes, reliably'), keeper who has the manger's confidence (as in: 'undroppable while still breathing'), but still capable of a spectacular stop, once in awhile.

RM has at least made an effort to shore up the centre-back situation. Stones, if he stays, and Funes Mori have the makings of a first class pair central defenders. We will have put up with Tim Howard for this season at least.

RM is neither genius or insane. Every manager has things they’re better at; and things they’re not so accomplished at. I think he has a vision of the way he wants the squad to play. That vision going forward is fairly clear, the further back you go, towards our own goal, the foggier it gets.

Dave Ganley
45 Posted 21/01/2016 at 08:55:23
Bobby (#41), if you think the Man Utd and Watford games were the only disappointing performances this season then there is nothing else to say.

Kevin, not desperate mate, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Martinez has got it wrong and not turning up to play the 2nd halves of games where they were so dominant in the 1st half is an issue that needs addressing. They could so easily have lost those games. I’m also not rattled. As you say its all about opinions. Having an opinion that differs from yours doesn’t make me rattled, rather, you saying that just deflects from the fact that you haven’t addressed the real issues

Kieran Fitzgerald
46 Posted 21/01/2016 at 09:13:39
Let's see after this transfer window and the next. If he manages to keep our top players then I will feel more positive about him. For me that is the acid test. If the players have turned against him and the club then he's a clown. If he can convince them to stay then he may just be on to something.
Raymond Fox
47 Posted 21/01/2016 at 10:10:10
As you may have noticed I’m steadfastly pro Martinez – boringly so some will say! If Martinez was given the funds I believe he could build a team that would challenge the likes of Man City, Arsenal etc.

We can argue the pros and cons of Martinez’s abilities but the combined quality of the squad will out over a seasons play, if we could afford and attract the likes of Aquero alongside Lukaku, Hart in goal how many more points would we now have?

Pie in the sky at the moment I know with the current owners. It's a chicken and the egg situation with our club, it has been for decades, the very top players wont come or stay because we are not successful enough and we can't afford their silly wages, but without them we’ll always struggle to make the break though!

I fear the team will be ripped apart in the summer and we will back to square one once more. We might then be cash rich there's that consolation, but can we adequately replace them?

David Hendricks
48 Posted 21/01/2016 at 10:44:14
I am of the opinion that Roberto has some great traits and also some really frustrating ones. He seems way too stubborn and that, for me, is the biggest issue. He has done some really good things and it would seem to me that sorting a defence to protect a lead late in games should be a simpler thing to resolve than any problems in attaining a lead in the first place.

Alas, his stubbornness seems to get in the way of him doing this and, although I had been recently looking to blame Howard for most of our defensive issues, I read a stat yesterday that suggests that maybe the main problem is Roberto HIMSELF.

I am not sure if this stat has been raised on here before but in the final 5 games for Wigan, in the season they got relegated, they gave up 7 points from winning positions.

This suggests to me two things;

1. Given his history, it seems a clear indication that Roberto has always had issues defending a lead; and

2. He is in denial over it and/or a very, very slow learner.

If he loses another lead to Swansea this weekend, I think he is going to be under huge pressure from the fans.

Santa Krsh
49 Posted 21/01/2016 at 11:34:17
To all those fans who wants Martinez sacked, here are few Questions:

1. Who are the Managers with previous experience in EPL currently available?

Moyes, Rodgers, Mourinho, Monk, Holloway.. Do any one of us want them? I think it's a BIG NO!

2. Who are the managers with descent reputation abroad who will fit into our philosophy?

Unai Emery, Frank De Boer, Diego Simeone, Thomas Schaf, Dieter Hecking... Will they be willing to come here? I thinks it's highly doubtful.

3. Okay, even if they come here, think of the European Managers who came here with fantastic reputation but left with their reputation tattered?

Michael Laudrup, AVB, Pepe Mel, Felix Magath, Dick Advocaat.

The same Old Guard of Allardyce, Pulis, Hughes, Redknapp, Bruce, Hughton, Pardew keep on changing & rotating clubs for various short to medium term stints.

So, to conclude, unless we develop our own manager!! or pluck from nowhere, à la Pochettino, I think it's better we stick to this man who at least does not create rifts, doesn't give bad publicity, doesn't make us a laughing stock; instead makes us likeable & watchable.

Paul Tran
50 Posted 21/01/2016 at 11:57:27
If you sat me down and told me we were never going to finish top four, maybe get the odd cup once in a blue moon, I'd prefer what I've watched the last couple of months. I really enjoyed the games, despite the irritation at points dropped.

Thing is, we can do better than this. I wanted the last manager out because I didn't think he had the skill set to get us into the top four regularly and challenge for trophies. No hate, no bitterness, that's it. His performance since his departure have not convinced me otherwise.

I like Martinez's intentions, his positivity and his stubbornness. I don't like his ignoring of fundamentals, his repeated mistakes.

Above all, like Moyes, I don't like his conservatism and fear. It seems worse under Martinez because his intentions are clear and his talk so positive.

I'd like the Everton manager to build a team that plays some of the great attacking play I've seen this season. I want him to pay attention to the defence, to make it tighter at the expense of 10% of our forward play would do me.

If Martinez wants to be that man, that's fine by me. At the moment he's only doing half the job and it isn't good enough.

James Lauwervine
52 Posted 21/01/2016 at 13:40:00
I think he’s assembling an excellent squad using the best of what was left to him (Howard apart) and adding some real quality. It’s been a frustrating season but also one with many wonderful moments and we have a real chance at a trophy, or even two.

He sells players at the right time and keeps players when everyone thinks they’ll be prised away. We’ve been unfortunate and naïve at times, but I still feel this will be season to remember. Next season might be his last chance at the top 4 though before the squad starts to come apart.

Frank Thomas
53 Posted 21/01/2016 at 14:05:25
Kendall did find it difficult in the first few years, same as Moyes, because both inherited a poor squad and had to wait for players to be available.

This was not the case for Martinez; he already had the best defence in the league with overlapping fullbacks. He also had Stones, Barkley, Oviedo, Naismith, Mirallas, Galloway and Browning at Everton. In his first season, he showed they could attack with the inclusion of his purchases; they were unlucky not to finish in the top 4.

He was denied partly because of the strength of the top four and because of the win against Arsenal at Goodison Park. In that pivotal game, he changed players around not because of injuries, not because of bad play, but because he thought he could outwit the opposition manager. It worked for that game and backfired against Southampton in the next game and for the rest of the season. Martinez was proud for destroying Arsenal but pride comes before a fall.

He has continued a similar style to this day. What happened to "I will play players if they perform well"? Naismith scored 3 goals and gets a short time in the next game and then disappears from selection. Ditto for Mirallas. This applies to all except his "favourites" Kone and Howard – what message does that give to new prospects looking to join Everton or coming through the ranks???

Take Galloway: I was worried at the start but he played really well... as soon as Baines is fit, he is dropped against Man Utd but it was obvious that Baines could not last the whole 90 minutes – he was worn out. Once again, changing the team caused a defence dysfunction.

I suspect this action played a part in Byram’s U-turn. He knew he could play really well but Coleman would still get his position back.

This is not the way to get the best out of players; "only the thought of a bad display and you will be dropped" gets the most out of players. This is basic and yet Martinez persists in his pattern of selection. I think Martinez may be getting worried about his position.

In his first season he said we could not win the league because the big teams had so much money to spend and had such big squads – has anybody told Leicester, West Ham and Stoke this?

What grates the most is my LFC friends openly admitted that we have a better squad this year than they did and yet we nearly lost to them... please explain, Mr Martinez?

Jamie Crowley
54 Posted 21/01/2016 at 15:38:12
Dave @ 21-

Thank you for the kind words. For both of us, I hope I'm right too.

I've absolutely no idea whatsoever a cannie lad is, but screw it - you're hired.

You'll have to live on like $5/hr but screw it, you'll be in sunny Florida. Gotta pay your own way over the Atlantic of course...

Jamie Crowley
55 Posted 21/01/2016 at 15:41:31
Oliver @25 -

That's the fly in the ointment.

Holding onto the players is going to be the key to success and it will not be easy. Brent Stephens mentioned yesterday how frightening a proposition it would be with an Lukaku-less Everton. Scary.

I think the Martinez conveyor belt is in full production mode and as in life, there will be a setback or two most likely.

Still believe he has the correct approach for Everton Football Club.

Darren Hind
56 Posted 21/01/2016 at 19:36:27
I'm with Dave Ganley: history is being rewritten. Our football during Moyes' last two seasons was absolutely brilliant. If this site was bouncing with indignation about how boring and predictable we were, the people doing the "bouncing" must have been watching a different Baines, Pienaar, Mirallas, Coleman, Osman Jelavic, to me.

Moyes's downfall was that he didn't understand strikers, he didn't realise that they needed to preserve their energies, to be razor sharp when it REALLY mattered. He wanted them to do as much running as the rest of the team. Goodison was known amongst the faithful as a strikers' graveyard.

Russell,

I really don't know who you are referring to when you say "Martinez has the ear of talented young players whom he has managed to bring to the club, despite competition from more 'desirable' teams..." who are these players? Stones has already asked for a transfer and Lukaku waited all summer for a better offer before putting pen to paper. So who else is there? And who were the other "more desireable" teams they turned down?

Martinez has three English internationals in his team, he has the much sort after Seamus and he has Mori, a proven international, but just as Moyes didnt understand strikers, Martinez seems unable to communicate with his defenders, he just dos not get this defending lark, if GP was a Graveyard for strikers on TGT'S watch, it's a funeral parlour for defenders on Roberto's.

I cant think of many managers who's results and league position are both deteriorating despite having a dramatically improved squad.

Genius? he only has to be slightly above the ordinary with these players and he can win a cup.

Let's see if he can manage that.

Martin Mason
57 Posted 21/01/2016 at 19:57:36
We've had two managers now who have very good qualities but who in my opinion will never manage successful clubs, Moyes because he was timid and Martinez because he is the opposite. Moyes was relatively starved of funds compared to RM and so comparison is a little unfair as was some of the criticism of him on here.

The reality? We probably get the manager that we can afford and I believe RM is at the top of his ability now and will take us no further because of his inflexibility. I also think he's going nowhere because of the board's commendable loyalty.

Dave Abrahams
58 Posted 21/01/2016 at 20:10:05
Jamie (#54) that should have read 'can lad', I’m not explaining what a can lad does because I’m not coming, 5 dollars an hour and pay my own fare, Jamie it’s 2016, Scrooge was better natured than that!!!!!

Keep supporting the Blues though, good luck with getting to Goodison Park.

Jamie Crowley
60 Posted 21/01/2016 at 20:53:32
Dave -

It’s a small business. ;0) I’m worse than Kenwright with expenditures. Ask my wife...

I agree with Darren as well. Under Moyes we did play some pretty decent stuff for a couple of years. It was – and I mean this sincerely not tongue and cheek – wonderful to watch at times.

But one also has to admit that Moyes would indeed shut up shop and had an inferiority complex about the so-called "bigger clubs".

And, whereas Moyes had a brief run at some fairly pretty football:

As Darren states, he seemingly could never, the Yak aside, find a striker who could actually turn that football into something truly wonderful...

Moyes had some truly desperate years where the football was just gawd-fucking-awful...

And, in my opinion, he didn’t grasp the concept of developing youth at all like Martinez does. Moyes – and I stand to be corrected here – never had a kid come into the side and had that player’s evaluation / market value sky-rocket. It can be argued Martinez has (it’s fact with at least 3 players in Lukaku, Stones, and Barkley with more on the horizon). We have a brighter economic plan under Roberto by buying low and selling high if the need arises for fiscal responsibility.

But the Moyes bashing, although he’s not my cup of tea, does conveniently forget some good football and enjoyable performances. Having said that, I’d slit my wrists if he came back.

Jamie Crowley
62 Posted 21/01/2016 at 20:57:39
Moyes signed Seamus Coleman... that's an example I just thought of where Moyes did well buying young.

I would not include Barkley or Stones in the Moyes "plus column". He never played Barkley and in fact benched the poor kid forever after a mistake (Newcastle I think), and Stones had completely developed under Martinez and I doubt he'd have gotten a sniff of playing time under Moyes.

Moyes just didn't give the youngin's a chance.

Tony Abrahams
63 Posted 21/01/2016 at 20:57:40
Jamie, send me your address and I will send you $10,000, but don’t ever let him make you a cup of tea though!

Darren, I can’t agree with you when you say our football during Moyes's last two seasons was brilliant. We did play some really good football in that time, especially early on in the season, at both Swansea and Villa, but we were always only going to ever be just nearly men for me.

We won at West Ham, then Newcastle (2nd Jan), over the Xmas period, then never won another match away from Goodison Park. We looked tired when we needed to push on, and if a Martinez team only seems to play for one half, I always felt a Moyes team could only ever do really well over half a season.

Maybe it was the size of his squad, but I sometimes felt like he was trying to flog dead horses, instead of rotating when players looked tired. That said his teams knew how to defend a lot better than the present lot, although I think this team is much better when they attack.

Great point about points and position deteriorating, Darren, especially as you say, with a much better squad. I honestly think Martinez is giving a lot of us bi-polar and I sometimes wonder if the perfect job for him would be in charge of youth development? Maybe if he can win us that cup, I might just change my mind!

Jamie Crowley
64 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:00:36
Tony -

Director of Football, although not popular in your neck of the woods, would surely be a perfect fit for Roberto if you're critical of his managerial record, approach, and tactics, no?

Tony Abrahams
65 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:22:25
Jamie, it’s not something I’ve ever really understood, but I think in life, as in football, people are usually talented at some things, but not so good at others.

Martinez has got us playing some great attacking football, but I also think his teams can defend as good as any David Moyes team, when he sets his stall out this way. (I’m gonna get slaughtered for this!)

When he goes back to the basics, his teams can usually defend, but then they never seem to have the same spark when they attack. If he’s capable of changing this, then I think he will become a very good manager, but it’s not easy for anyone when they have to go against their nature, to change.

It’s probably the reason that not many managers really succeed, because it’s very hard to change.

David Hallwood
66 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:25:22
I’ve posted these figures of RM’s 7-year Premier career, and what’s obvious to me is that he doesn’t do defence or, more to the point ’if you score 3, we’ll score 4’ philosophy, so it isn’t genius or insanity; it’s naivety – and it isn’t new.

Ardiles tried it when he managed Spurs and they got regularly creamed, and was sacked very quickly, and Martinez isn’t as extreme as Ardiles, but he does seem to have a mindset of ’If we keep the ball – pass, pass, pass, pass, that means the opposition won’t get the chance to score because they haven’t got the ball.’

But, Roberto, teams DO get the ball, and are not just going to stand there marveling at our silky ball skills; moreover, more pragmatic managers will and do play systems that nullify our pass, pass, pass game.

So I’d call Martinez an idealist, and like all idealists, even if they’re in a minority of one, will still be convinced they’re right – look at all those soldiers out of step with our Tom:

Wigan A B C D
2009-10 37 79 -42 2.08
2010-11 40 61 -21 1.61
2011-12 42 62 -20 1.63
2012-13 47 73 -26 1.92
Everton
2013-14 61 39 22 1.03
2014-15 48 50 -2 1.32
2015-16 67 55 12 1.45 (projected)

(Column A=GF, Column B= GA, Column C= GD, Column D= Avv goals conceded per game)

Tony Abrahams
67 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:33:28
Jamie, when I said that people are usually good at some things but not others, I was definately not talking about Dave. If your prepared to pay him five dollars an hour, you really need your head testing mate!!
Peter Gorman
68 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:45:45
I have to roll my eyes at the constant rewriting of history by some. Sure, Kevin, it is an opinions board but some opinions are just more credible than others. The OP itself peddles the myth and lacks credibility as a result.

Using the alleged drudgery of Moyes as a stick to beat Martinez with is just laughable. There is nothing entertaining about throwing away points.

Dave, a couple of times, and Darren have shown up the absolute emptiness of the boring Moyes Everton myth so I won't labour it (though you are of course entitled to your opinion that a 6-3 win over Sunderland is more entertaining than a 7-1).

But back to the OP. Moyes not having the ability to sign entertaining young prospects? What, like Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Baines, Lescott, Coleman, Yobo (post world cup and his first signing ffs) and not to mention Stones him bloody self! Admittedly, most of these players were over 20 when we signed them so therefore couldn't possibly be as exciting as, say, a 19 year old but whatever, it is all about opinions.

The question shouldn't so much be whether this man is genius or insane so much as, simply put, is he fit to run our football club. With every inept performance the answer is swaying emphatically to 'No'.

Tony Abrahams
69 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:48:56
David (#66), have we really scored 67 goals this season? Nearly 1.5 goals conceded every game is poor, but if 67 goals is correct, we should be on course to score over 100 goals this season.

Not everyone’s cup of tea, how can it be when we are throwing so many stupid points away? But as the season progresses, you can definitely say the same thing about our attack.

If we’d carry on the same way though. It’s also possible we could ship 100 goals as well!

Jamie Crowley
70 Posted 21/01/2016 at 21:56:19
David -

It pains me to say you're numbers do bear out.

4th place (really the "holy grail" with Champions League qualification) since 2011:

2011 - Arsenal +29GD / 1.13 GA/game
2012 - Spurs +25GD / 1.08 GA/game
2013 - Arsenal +35GD / .97 GA/game
2014 - Arsenal +27GD / 1.09 GA/game
2015 - ManU +25GD / .97 GA/game

Some notable respectable finishes:

2012 - NewCastle 5th place 1.34 GA/game
2014 - Spurs 6th place 1.34 GA/game
2014 - the shite 2nd place (thank you Stevie G for the slip) + 51GD /1.32 GA/game
2015 - Spurs 5th place 1.39 GA/game

The numbers - data - basically say the instant you climb above 1.2 GA/game you're looking at Europa League (or whatever the hell they call it nowadays) with one glaring exception:

El Poo under Brenda with their definably gun-ho approach would have won the league with a 1.32 GA/game had that banana peel not miraculously appeared under Stevie Gs foot for Demba Ba.

What link does that exception have?

Both managers really learned and formed their stylistic approach at Swansea - open, eye pleasing football.

Jay Harris
71 Posted 21/01/2016 at 22:07:03
In a few words:

Nice fellow well met, slick dresser, egotistical, championship standard coach, average man manager, total bullshitter who makes it up as he goes along and who is out of his depth and getting desperate.

In short, more lunatic than genius.

Jeff Armstrong
72 Posted 21/01/2016 at 22:21:03
Interesting piece on the Mail on line, Martin Samuel... basically calling out Martinez and some decent scrutiny of his Wigan days; he just does not do defence, and he never learns.
David Hallwood
73 Posted 21/01/2016 at 22:30:31
Tony (#69) This is a projected figure. It currently stands at P22 F39 A32 which is an average of F1.77 A1.45 per game, and if these averages are maintained that will be the goals F&A come the end of the season
Grant Rorrison
74 Posted 21/01/2016 at 23:35:22
We’ve generally not conceded that many goals under Martinez. Take away 5 games where we let in half our goals this season and the figures read P17 A16. Respectable if not spectacular. Even in two of the five games where we’ve defended badly (in terms of number of goals conceded) we had clean sheets up until the 80th and 64th minutes.

Surely if there was something inherently wrong with the way Martinez approaches the game we wouldn’t be so solid the vast majority of the time? Luck only accounts for what happens some of the time not most or all of it.

Jay Harris
75 Posted 21/01/2016 at 23:54:27
Grant,

His record over 6 seasons in the Premier League is a better guide than "one or two" games this season.

He had his moments with Wigan too and look where they ended up!!

Grant Rorrison
76 Posted 21/01/2016 at 00:22:57
Wigan were always going to be relegated eventually whoever managed them. 25% off their wage bill. Selling their best players every season.

They were a Championship club financially. Staying up was success, he managed it 75% of the time.

Phil Walling
77 Posted 22/01/2016 at 03:04:15
Who the hell wants the drudgery of finishing 7th every year when 11th is ours for the asking and there’s the constant excitement of always nearly winning games.

Oh, and we all know if only Lukaku could score twice as many goals as our exiting, ball-playing defenders concede, we would walk away with the league and take the cups with us!

The truth, of course, is that with a win ratio of around 30% over the past 60 matches, we are a serious injury away from the drop zone. Lose the aforementioned scorer for more than a handful of games and we are well and truly fucked!

But Isn’t life under TIO exciting?

Harold Matthews
78 Posted 22/01/2016 at 04:07:19
Andy C has probably got it right. Martinez is more about his philosophy than about Everton. One day he aims to prove that his system works and all he needed was time. Something he touched upon many moons ago when he declared that everyone needs time but the rich clubs can use their wealth to accelerate things.

Personally, I find it all very interesting, watching him build his squad and wondering why he uses certain players. Trying to understand that he doesn't send people out just to kick a ball around but to play a role within the team. Able to relate to the movement and thinking of their nearest team-mates. This sometimes means that better individual players are left on the bench.

Unfortunately, no matter how we line up, the fact that we seldom win cannot be ignored. The fact that we have trouble hanging on to a lead cannot be ignored. With so many important fixtures on the horizon, we need to put things right.

John Keating
79 Posted 22/01/2016 at 04:45:59
Grant
by your reasoning if you take away 16 games from your 17 and just look at the Southampton away match, well we would be top of the league.

Unbelievable!

Darren Hind
80 Posted 22/01/2016 at 04:46:14
Martin Mason

Your logic is a bit skewed there, mate. I could understand people supporting Martinez and I can understand people criticising him, but you are in a bit of a league of your own.

You criticise him and claim we are going nowhere under him, fair enough... but then praise the board for not sacking him. How does that work? If you truly believe Martinez is falling short, how can you believe the boards Loyalty is "commendable"?

I'm always criticising Martinez, but he stands alone here, I would be far more happy to "commend" this board if they occasionally demonstrated that "loyalty". It was sickening watching Martinez have to go it alone throughout the John Stones saga last summer. This loyal band of men in the boardroom sat in silence as Journos, clown TV pundits, and half-witted ex-players, lined up to pressurise Martinez into selling. They didn't publicly back their man until he had single handedly fought off the wolves and their £38 million had gone up in smoke.

Martinez is making many mistakes, but he isn't doing a bad enough job to be sacked; we are being royally entertained and we could be in a cup final in this time next week. The "commendable loyalty" you speak about would evaporate if they thought their investment was being compromised.

The only loyalty these guys have, is to each other and that will only last until pay day.

Laurie Hartley
81 Posted 22/01/2016 at 05:35:04
Having read through all the threads with an open mind, I have to say many of the arguments on both sides of the fence are compelling.

Just when I though I had made my mind up, Harold threw a spanner in the works with his post at # 78 – thanks Harold.

Maybe I was starting to feel better about things because this time last season it was so bad – maybe.

Or maybe he is on the verge of delivering something special. The next two games will help me make up my mind.

Joe Foster
82 Posted 22/01/2016 at 07:40:11
Grant (#74) this is probably the most disgraceful post I have ever read on TW. I had to read it several times over in case I was misinterpreting it.

So if if we just turn a blind eye to the games we have lost then RM is a Genius? Ha ha ha... the logic of this cannot be faulted. I thought I had read every excuse for RM but this... this was something truly special.

Paul Tran
83 Posted 22/01/2016 at 07:43:43
No insanity or genius for me. No balance, neither. When Martinez focuses on defence we can be quite tight at the back. On those rare occasions, we offer very little up front. In the last three months we've been very exciting going forward, but we leave ourselves open and lose our positional discipline.

Over the years I've seen plenty of good defensive teams try to expand their play, leaving themselves open and failing. It's nothing new and a difficult balance to maintain.

Just like Moyes never really understood strikers, I wonder whether Martinez will ever understand defenders. Under Moyes we were a good striker away from a very good team (he was unlucky with Yakubu). I think we're currently a good keeper and commanding defender away from a very good team.

So for me neither genius nor insane. Like a lot of people I've met in work and life, he's a short, obvious step from success, but is too wrapped up in his own world to notice.

Tony Abrahams
84 Posted 22/01/2016 at 09:09:14
Thanks for pointing that out to me David, It was stupid of me not to realise. As I say though, he gives me bi-polar, but then again football is full of contradictions. After all, They do say attack is the best form of defence!!
Grant Rorrison
85 Posted 22/01/2016 at 12:23:13
John (#79). My reasoning was that you make judgements upon the majority of results not a few isolated examples. You then gave me one game and said we’d be top of the league based upon it?! I don’t understand your point.

Joe (#82). I never claimed he was a genius.

Steven Jones
86 Posted 22/01/2016 at 17:45:36
Moyes did great for us adding one player each year. At the end, it was an ageing squad. RM has added and changed several personnel and the young squad has multiplied our player value and balance sheet. He has attracted that talent.

RM achieved the top number of points in the Premier league and has us up in a semi-final second leg to come.

We are one of the most loved teams by opposition and neutrals for the way we play and the potential we have is miles better than since the late '80s.

I am loving the way we play and some of the goals and football is back to the magic of past great teams.

The results are disappointing having been in such great positions, defence is in need of a replacement GK and a little bit more attention to close games out.

RM is a star and there is potentially something special happening.

Michael Williams
87 Posted 22/01/2016 at 17:50:13
I am for patience. We have several players aged 19-22, several key players new to the team this year and this is basically the first year this collection of talent has played together. It usually takes time for a team to gel and learn everything that’s required to make the top four and I am willing to give it to them. In America, there is no way a team this young would be expected to compete with the elite of any great sports league.

This team plays some of the most creative, attacking football I have seen in Europe, especially considering the age of many of its best players. Yes they have to learn to close out games and I think the experience they are gaining this year, taking the game to teams like Man City and Chelsea, the gutsy draw with Tottenham, and yes losing 2-0 leads, will benefit them next year.

Roberto Martinez is neither genius or insane of course. For better or worse he rejects some of what’s traditional in English football and he is in the middle of training his young team how to play his way – attacking football, play the ball out the back, be able to control the game when necessary (ie, closing out City with possession even with 10 men).

With the addition of a couple more very god players, a ’keeper and another year of maturity as individuals and as a team, this squad has the potential to be pretty special, especial considering it’s Everton and not wealthy like the usual suspects.

Andy Walker
88 Posted 22/01/2016 at 18:20:01
More and more people are using Moyes as the reason to justify Martinez. It goes something like this: Moyes was boring, Martinez isn’t. This narrative is gaining traction and it is almost becoming accepted (as it’s repeated so often) that watching Everton was always incredibly boring under Moyes. An attempt to re-write history in a further attempt to defend Martinez.

Martinez should be judged by his own performance not against a made-up boredom index attributed to our past manager. But of course Martinez’s performance can’t be justified when we look at the bare facts – bottom-half performance for over a year, terrible defensive frailties, highly questionable gung-ho style of play, nonsensical and contradictory media statements.

And here below is a quote from one of the match reports made by a senior TW reporter from a match in the last couple of years of Moyes reign:

’Everton started to surge forward in waves. Some scintillating football made those parallels with Barcelona not too far off the mark.’

This of course is contrary to the narrative that’s frequently now being pushed by pro-Martinez contributors. Thing is this paragraph is actual history, fact, true, not spin.

Now I know that there were dull matches under Moyes, but their are under Martinez too, let’s have a bit of balance and reality hey?

Chris Butler
90 Posted 22/01/2016 at 23:19:26
I gave up my season ticket this season because I simply couldn’t bare watching Everton under Martinez. As somebody said, he doesn’t care about Everton – only his philosophy – and it was his philosophy that took Wigan down.

Personally, I think he is destroying our club. We have a great side, with three England internationals at the back. We have Coleman, arguably Ireland's best player. We have players like Mirallas, Deulofeu, Besic, McCarthy, Barkley and Lukaku – all quality players. We have a side that are more than capable of not just challenging for the top 4, but we could quite easily get in to the top 4 if we had a better manager.

Many Everton fans were bitterly disappointed when we conceded the 3rd goal against Chelsea; personally, I’ve become used to it. It’s all so predictable, to the point I didn’t even expect us to keep the lead when 2-0 last weekend. I just can’t understand the mentality of supporters who support him.

I don’t see any evidence that we are moving forward; we are currently facing a mid table finish. There is a very good chance that our better players like Lukaku, Deulofeu, Stones and Barkley could leave in the summer. I think our future is very bleak under Martinez.

Peter Gorman
91 Posted 22/01/2016 at 23:37:28
I actually hope the guy is insane, at least then we could be more sympathetic to his inane ramblings.

Here is his take on failing to sign a promising youngster, Byram (though he is in fact 22 so probably a lucky escape, eh fellow ToffeeWebbers?)

"As on many occasions, we were the first to identify a special youngster in the Championship." – What the hell is he talking about?

"We went through the correct procedures but in the end it wasn’t the right move for Sam, and he wasn’t the right player for us with the squad that we have." – Seriously, what does this mean? We identify a player to sign, attempt to sign him and then – when he chooses West Ham over our club – he wasn’t the right player for us anyway? This is really "incredible" stuff!!!

But fret not, fellows: "I’m pleased that we were at the forefront of identifying a young player with terrific potential."

Wow! Please let him be insane. Anything but the arrogant, two-faced, double-speaking charlatan that he so clearly is.

James Flynn
92 Posted 23/01/2016 at 00:10:31
Andy (88) - Dead on.
Jack Cross
93 Posted 23/01/2016 at 02:13:44
Dave Ganley (#22).

I agree with you 100%. I watched exciting football under Moyes.

Did you ever read about George Graham, when he managed Arsenal? How he had to change the style of play from attacking flare football, to defensive play? That was simply because of his ageing First Division side and lack of funds going in to the Premier.

People always said his side was boring and defensive. But it wasn’t the case. He was a brilliant manager who was use to winning trophies.

Even when he went defensive he still won trophies.

The point I’m making is, he wasn’t a one trick pony. He changed their style of play and carried on their winning ways.

Got to remember Arsen Wenger’s early success was with Grahams rock solid defence. Seaman, Adams and Keown.

So defensive play is not always negative. In my view.

Alan Thompson
94 Posted 23/01/2016 at 08:04:11
Is Martinez insane or a genius seems to have developed/denigrated into a comparison with Moyes. I happen to agree with Martinez that if you want to play good football it must, in the main, be done from back to front, that is, all over the park.

What I do find irritating/annoying is his inability to organize something to take advantage of set pieces. In Baines we have a player who regularly contributed goals from free kicks but now I have trouble thinking of one except at West Ham two seasons ago? Corners seem to be an inconvenience to us and on a couple of occasions, most recently against Man City which led to Besic’s booking, almost work against us.

And as for the most common set piece, the throw-in, I cannot fathom if we have any system/variation at all. Could it be argued that this seeming indifference is what led to the Mirallas/Lukaku penalty taking or was that because of the one Baines missed against Man Utd? A genius might just ask one of his assistants or even his players to sort something out and improve on their thoughts while an idiot might think they offer little advantage so why worry. After all, they may only give you the possession you hold so dear.

As for defensive organization, we do seem to mark space at the expense of actually attacking the ball. As I’ve said before on other threads, could we not have the Goalkeeper attack high centres in the 6 yard box while our best in the air cover it between there and the penalty spot. It may not be the answer but it might be a start.

Insane or genius? The devil may be in the detail.

Joe Bibb
95 Posted 23/01/2016 at 12:30:44
All applications for Martinez’s job are now closed. Thank you to all who gave your opinions above.

Do you really want Moyes back? Don’t think Man United or Real Socieadad do.

Would you rather have Klipperty Klopp?

We are in a semi final after less than 3 years of Roberto’s rein. We have a one goal lead against the Multi Millionaires of the Premiership but that’s no enough for some of you.

Look at the players we have up front Lukaku, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barkley, We have England defenders in Stones, Baines and Jags.

Yes there are problems in defence with Howard but man for man we are a match for most teams in the Prem.

We go out to try and win games not like Moyes who went not to lose them. The one good thing is if we do get to Wembley there will be plenty of tickets available because surely you Martinez knockers won't want to go.


Peter Gorman
97 Posted 23/01/2016 at 12:34:28
Well done, Joe, on a worthless contribution. And for the record, yes, I would go because I support the club not the man.
Joe Bibb
98 Posted 23/01/2016 at 12:52:57
Peter (#97),

Is the mention of a semi-final appearance a worthless contribution? Is the fact that we have one of the best attacks in the Premier League a worthless contribution?

Maybe you know better, Peter; I would love to see your words of wisdom.

Peter Gorman
99 Posted 23/01/2016 at 13:17:16
You already have seen them, I support the club not the man so your comment about 'Martinez knockers' was just foolish.

The rest of your post doesn't add much either. Yes we are in a semi final, well done on noticing. Did you notice we have been in them before? Even managed to get to a final a few times (even under *gasp* Moyes). Just checking you noticed.

And yes we do have one of the best attacks, did you notice we have one of the worst defences? Is being 11th in the league, throwing away goal leads like its Christmas, enough for you? But please pardon me, I just like to moan obviously.

Michael Williams
100 Posted 23/01/2016 at 13:37:23
Peter (#91). Here’s what Martinez was saying and it’s not hard to figure out. Yes Martinez liked Byram as a player and wanted to sign him. However, according to reports, Martinez told Byram he would have to compete with Coleman.

When Byram decided he’d rather go somewhere else than compete then of course he becomes a player that does not fit. We need youngsters to compete for starting jobs unless they are clearly better coming in.

Here’s a quote that comes after your quotes – from The Guardian: "It was not right for him and it wasn’t a challenge he could embrace."

Byram could not accept the challenge of competing/sitting for Coleman – hence not the player we need.

Peter Gorman
102 Posted 23/01/2016 at 14:27:33
Interesting explanation, Michael, and makes more sense in that light but the only thing obvious about his comments was a man covering his arse.

"As on many occasions, we were the first to identify a special youngster in the Championship... I’m pleased that we were at the forefront of identifying a young player with terrific potential."

Have you ever known someone take as much credit for so little? A Leeds player signs for West Ham but at least our manager is pleased to have noticed the kid has talent. Well done, Roberto!

Raymond Fox
103 Posted 23/01/2016 at 14:34:51
Peter, you're fully entitled to your opinion that goes without saying, but things are not as black as many imply.

The defence is conceding too many goals, I think we all agree on that. I also think that he should consider more before opening his mouth, mitigating that English is not his first language, and managers have a microphone stuck under their noses every 5 mins. Even so, interviews are not his strong point, I agree, but at the end of the day, it's not that important, is it?

Whatever the style of play, the bottom line is the result is paramount, and we are failing to finish sides off and get the result we want.

There are positives in his favour though, like only Man City have scored more goals than us; he’s added some players to ones left behind by Moyes that have made us particularly strong going forward. Up to now, he’s held on to our better players and slowly introduced into the team over time Stones, Barkley, Deulofeu, Galloway and Browning. If you add Lukaku to the list, we talking about players now worth a hell of a lot of money!

If we keep conceding goals at the rate we have been doing, I will agree that it's not good enough and his position as manager should be reviewed. But, as far as the issue of losing leads are concerned, don’t forget we have to score goals before we can lose those leads.

Peter Roberts
104 Posted 23/01/2016 at 14:40:53
Interesting isn’t it. Martinez is still that fresh into his tenure that people can still remember their "Dave is going, I want Stubbs, Pereira, don’t fancy Lennon, Martinez?! He got Wigan relegated!" discussions. I wanted Martinez straight from the off and I still do want him.

More importantly I want all talk of Moyes to stop; he was a man who hypnotised so many fans into thinking 7th place for Everton was like Deportivo winning La Liga in 2000. Everton and it’s shoe-string budget but high salary budget (especially that for a manager) was ideal for that dour sandbagger.

11 years of Moyes and a few of Smith has given me a need to see a manager who is prepared to have a go.

Like him or not, Martinez has his methods. He may be slow to change the error of his ways but I think he will. He is bright but stubborn and he isn’t perfect.

As I was so often reminded in my criticism of Lukaku, if he was as good as I wanted him to be in some areas he wouldn’t be at Everton... well the same goes for Martinez.

I just think there are too many fans who did not want him in the first place, who are looking to be vindicated. The squad he has built with a massive dose of youth is exciting. What is more exciting is what they can achieve if we iron out those weak points. When he does that, he will be Barca bound.

Joe Foster
105 Posted 23/01/2016 at 14:49:09
I was very indifferent about RM appointment. It felt lazy and getting a manager that just relegated a team just seemed wrong.

As it's not up to me who our manager, is we just have to go along with it and hope he can do it. But from what we have seen during his time here he is taking us down the table and not up past the fabled 7th position we got used to.

I don’t dream of the Moyes days I just think RM is out of his depth in the Premier League... it happens, not his fault.

Michael Williams
106 Posted 23/01/2016 at 14:51:49
Peter: How is Martinez "covering his ass"? I think it’s pretty clear that West Ham offers a better chance for first team football than Everton at RB.

Martinez said Byram would rather not challenge for that role right now. Okay. If a young player does not want to challenge, then in most cases he’s not a fit. Your hate for Martinez clouds your reason.

Now you bash him for something else, saying he takes so much credit for identifying a good player who signed with West Ham. What’s wrong with that? We read all the time of managers and scouts that say they wanted to sign a player who is very good now when he was younger. Stuff like that is said all the time.

Hate clouds your reason.

Dave Ganley
107 Posted 23/01/2016 at 15:20:03
Peter (#104) it’s got nothing to do with being vindicated. I didn’t want Martinez but we all want to see Everton being successful. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to eat humble pie and watch Everton be in the upper reaches if the table.

As it is, we aren’t. We have won 18 out if the last 60 games. Completely unacceptable for me, as are your views that the fans who didn’t want Martinez are looking to be vindicated. What a ridiculous notion that I would shell out good money to go to the game week after week just to hope we lose.

As to your assertion that Moyes never had a go... look at the win ratio compared to Martinez and see how that pans out, shall we.

Nicholas Ryan
108 Posted 23/01/2016 at 15:31:43
Peter Roberts (#104), I think you have it just about right. Roberto Martinez is a bright young manager and coach, who still has much to learn, and has faults which he needs to address. But, when he does (and he is intelligent enough, that he will), he will become the Manager we would all like him to be now.

We are all frustrated this season, and rightly so. We have an exciting squad of talented and (mostly) young men. But, we must remember, they will make the mistakes that young men make. They will get carried away, and jump into the crowd, allowing the opposition time to score. They will have lapses of concentration at vital moments. That’s what young men do.

Wenger realised he was not the best defensive coach, and brought in Steve Bould; Martinez needs to do something similar (David Unsworth?).

Martinez clearly has a plan, over several years; what he has shown so far should entitle him to the time to bring that plan to fruition. He must have something about him, if players like Lukaku, Cleverley and Deulofeu are so obviously keen to work with him.

He was said to be inflexible, yet he has shown that flexibility in recent weeks. It is not necessary to be ’Pro’ or ’Anti’ Martinez; I am neither, or possibly, both! I see him as a talented young man, with some problems and baggage, that need clearing away.

What is not acceptable is the relentless personal abuse and outright hatred that is (sometimes) heaped upon him in these threads. He is neither a genius, nor insane; he may not be the best, but he is certainly, not bad!

To those who say ’we’re entitled to our opinion’; there is an important difference between an opinion, and sustained personal abuse.

So, the end-of-term report should say: ’Shows some talent... Could do more’.

Like #104, I do have this strange instinctive feeling that, one day, he will indeed manage Barcelona; but who knows... they might win the Copa del Rey and get relegated in the same season!

Darren Hind
109 Posted 23/01/2016 at 16:05:27
Russell – or anybody else...

I keep reading about Martinez persuading youngsters to join us despite them having opportunities to join what Russell describes as more "desirable" teams.... can somebody please provide a list of these players.

I can only assume it happened when I wasn't looking.

Tony Hogan
110 Posted 23/01/2016 at 16:09:46
Genius; for proving the old adage that BS baffles brains.
Peter Gorman
111 Posted 23/01/2016 at 16:21:10
Darren, there is no list.

Michael - so now hate clouds my judgement? You sound like Jedi Master Yoda, if only you were as wise.

Martinez bids for player, player chooses another club, Martinez points out how clever he was to almost sign player and to spot that he has talent anyway. This is covering his arse. As you like to say; pretty clear.

On that note; how is it ’pretty clear’ that "West Ham offers a better chance for first team football than Everton at right-back"?

Are you aware at West Ham, Byram has two right-backs to get past (Tomkins and Jenkinson) to our one? That said, out of the mouths of innocents, you might be right given the propensity of Martinez to rush favourites back in regardless of form or fitness. (I’m referring to Howard and McCarthy in particular in case I’m not being pretty clear.)

Martin Mason
112 Posted 23/01/2016 at 19:22:53
Spot on, Nicholas@108.
Mark Gardiner
113 Posted 23/01/2016 at 20:08:50
The simple fact is that this is the best squad we have had for years, much better than anything that Moyes had and yet this is the second year in a row where we are likely to finish mid-table. I actually think that we will finish lower than mid table this year.

So, he has the best squad in years with some fantastic talent and yet here we are, in the bottom half of the league and we are all praying that we beat Swansea tomorrow. Yes, praying that we beat Swansea.

Martinez has to go because next season we will be worse I guarantee it. How many players will we lose this summer? Does anybody think that Lukaku, Stones, Barkley, Geri will want to play next season for a mid or bottom half side?

If Martinez is still the manager next season we will just see the same old rubbish results and we won't have the talent that we have this season. Why do Everton fans think that things will change when Martinez has shown, not just at Everton, but also at Wigan, that he won't change things.

Max Fine
114 Posted 23/01/2016 at 21:16:53
Martinez is taking risks but without a billionaire backer what chance do we have of improving otherwise? Are we really so invested in perennial 7th place finishes?

TV appearances are up, attendances are up, season tickets are up... this is not a coincidence. Martinez has vastly improved our entertainment value and for the first time we are an attractive proposition for burgeoning talent and flair players.

I have held my season ticket in the Main stand through Kendall Mk III, Smith, Royle, Moyes and Martinez and in my opinion the only area Martinez has failed to improve on is points on the board. Hopefully in time our young squad can work on their naivety and the points will come.

We have a far better squad, a far better style of play and for the first time in my memory the ability to hold on to our coveted stars. Martinez has also achieved our highest ever points haul and we are 90 goalless minutes away from a cup final appearance at Wembley. If this is not progress, I don’t know what is!

Peter Roberts
115 Posted 23/01/2016 at 22:34:28
So it’s all about win ratios is it Dave 107?

Tell me about these win ratios away from home to the "big 4" in Moyes 10 years?

What about the win ratios in big cup games where Moyes bottled it despite having a good chance... they are the win ratios I tend to remember.

The biggest ratio Moyes had was: cash earned vs risk exposed.

In spite of managing the most financially handicapped club Martinez actually won silverware... Wigan getting relegated was a formality – it was something that was going to happen once Whelan realised they couldn’t operate in the Jewell/Bruce wage-heavy model. Martinez reduced their expenditure massively in order to survive financially – he actually did this whilst avoiding relegation.

Has something happened at our club that has made people think that Martinez has been given a war chest and Moyes had nothing? Because it hasn’t. Martinez has given us a glimpse as to what 'great' looks like and some people are too hung up on an agenda to see that.

Most people feared relegation battles when Moyes left... it’s not an issue with Martinez, at least give him half the chance his predecessor had. At least it’s not gonna be boring.

Dave Ganley
116 Posted 23/01/2016 at 23:30:08
Peter, if you'd read my earlier posts, you'd have seen that I catalogue Moyes’s failings about not having the mental capability for winning the big games away from home, which is why he had to go.

However, to say that it's more exciting now than when Moyes was in charge is a bit of a misnomer. When Moyes finally got a decent team together, he produced an entertaining team. We had Wembley visits and good league placings. When he left, we needed someone to take us forward, someone who had the capability to win the big games and take us into the top 4.

What we have actually got is someone who doesn't win the big games and has taken us down the league. Yes we had a very good first half of his first season but then we tailed off and finished 5th (as Moyes did the previous season) when we really should have finished in the top 4. We had some shocking results especially against Arsenal in the cup and Liverpool in the league. The Arsenal home game the only respite really. You could say Martinez did what Moyes does and bottled it.

Last season was a complete write off and the less said the better.

This season, we still haven't taken it to the big teams away from home. We can only beat teams below us in the table. Martinez, for all his talk had only beaten a very poor Man Utd team away... as did many others that season. This season we struggle to beat anyone. Chelsea is not a big scalp this season as a lot of teams have beat them. We have been poor against all the decent teams this season, the exception being the Man City cup game.

Yes Martinez did win the cup for Wigan. However Portsmouth won the cup in recent memory, Birmingham won the League Cup, does that make their managers at the team quality? Not really.

Cup games are all about on the day which is why fans love them. Everybody has a chance on the day. The league is where you find out where you are really at. It never lies. It says we are a.mid table team. No we wont get relegated, there are too many poorer teams below us for that to happen. However, have we made progress? No, not in my opinion.

We go gung ho, score lots of goals against poor teams and also concede lots. We lauded a 1-1 draw with Spurs for crying out loud. Look at all the games this season against the teams above us and tell me that we have progressed.

In my humble opinion we have gone backwards. Fortress Goodison is no more. We are a novelty team that gives high scoring games against lesser opposition and give the sky boys something to talk about before the better teams come on. We have been soundly beaten by both Manchester clubs at home, Arsenal away, Stoke and Leicester at home struggled for a point against one of the worst Liverpool teams to come to Goodison Park, struggled for points against Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, Spurs away and at home – in fact, it's far easier just to list the games we have done okay in.

We have a decent squad, not a great one which some posters would have you believe, but one that should be doing far better than it is. It's not an easy fix as some suggest. Defence and keeping clean sheets are not easy things to do; if they were, everyone would be keeping them.

We constantly play with two defensive midfielders and we still can’t defend. Martinez shows absolutely no sign that he is capable of rectifying these problems. We have had the problem of leaking bad goals and on a regular basis since the second half of his first season. That's 2 full years. We also have won just 18 of the last 60 games. A dreadful stat and one which is staggering to me to see defended by some posters.

I really hope we get some kind of result at Man City midweek as we all could do with some good news. However, I fear it will just be papering over the cracks.

Joe Foster
117 Posted 23/01/2016 at 23:53:08
It’s sounds like you are the one with an agenda, Peter. It was very boring last season.
Peter Roberts
118 Posted 24/01/2016 at 07:58:02
The issue I see is that the Martinez Out feeling will always be simmering... it’s like a husband edging towards the remote control to change the channel when the wife is watching Downton Abbey... when he actually forgets he’s supposed to hate it he ends up enjoying it, but the clicker will never be far away when there is a period of nothing in the program.

Martinez doesn’t help himself with his interviews; people say he’s full of bull but take his comments at face value to discredit him and price his stubbornness.

I say give him at least this season and first half of next. By then, he should show signs of progression and evolving. After all Moyes had 11 years of non-evolving.

Trevor Peers
119 Posted 24/01/2016 at 09:01:29
I’m beginning to think there’s a new culture evolving especially in Merseyside football, where the manager is becoming more important than the team.

Watching Klopp and his wild celebrations after an awful performance at Norwich, I would say he has become the biggest personality at that club, yet they are distinctly average.

The same might be said here at Everton, the manager dominates the headlines, it’s all about his grand 5 year plan etc, yet our league position never matches all the hype.

Maybe this is modern football, heaven help us, reflecting the celebrity-driven society we live in.

Armando Canaj
120 Posted 24/01/2016 at 10:21:23
Neither genius nor insane. Obviously disappointed with the season to date, like all Evertonian. RM and BK have recruited and retained key players. Those players need to perform to the standards expected by a 'top' performing team.

Individual mistakes have cost us points. Team selection had mostly been good considering injuries.

Referring / Lino's have played their part on losing games.

Keep supporting this season. No point boo'ing. We've got Rom, Kevin, Gerry and Stones for 1 more season so enjoy..

COYB

Paul Kelly
121 Posted 24/01/2016 at 10:53:40
Mr Ganley, well said.

The next quote sums up my feelings exactly, "We also have won just 18 of the last 60 games. A dreadful stat and one which is staggering to me to see defended by some posters." Nail, head.

Barry Jones
122 Posted 24/01/2016 at 13:13:56
First season under Martinez – great football, great results.
Second season under Martinez – crap football, poor results.
Third season under Martinez – inconsistent but highly entertaining football, highly unpredictable results.

To almost quote Forrest Gump, "Everton are like a box of chocolates... you just don’t know what your’e gonna get". I am tempted to say, "Let’s see what next season brings and ask this question again."

Paul Doyle
123 Posted 24/01/2016 at 15:11:03
Genius or insane?

Neither... let’s settle on 'idiot'.

At the moment we are losing at home to a side fourth from bottom.

Please let there be a Delta revving away on Goodison Road!!!

Geoff Evans
124 Posted 25/01/2016 at 13:28:16
Don't believe the question, the answers so ... Oh I just give up!

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