Could history repeat itself?

by   |   16/02/2017  174 Comments  [Jump to last]

Goodison Park, 20 April 2014. The day David Moyes took charge of Manchester United, the reigning Champions of England, for the last time. In the crowd, a man dressed as 'The Grim Reaper' waved his scythe behind old Moyesie. After eight short months, the news was leaked of his sacking. A poor way to treat any manager.

Another barren management spell was cut short in Spain with Real Sociedad, winning just 11 out of 38 games and lasting just 12 months. It was a massive fall from grace for a man who had nothing but praise heaped upon him whilst he was with Everton. He certainly believed in his own press, despite the empty trophy cabinet.

Next weekend, Mr Moyes, who was credited with saving Everton from relegation, returns to Goodison Park once more, with his Sunderland team rock bottom of the Premier League, on the back of a 0-4 home defeat. Moyes made it clear to the Sunderland faithful they would be in a relegation battle from Day One of the current Premier League season.

A lot of Sunderland fans, and the mainstream media, point to their absent owner for lack of leadership and financial backing of the manager. Another place Moyes does seem to be quite immune from criticism is in the press. Whilst every other manager in the bottom 6 seem to be pilloried, Moyes doesn't really come in for much criticism at all.

He has been praised for his candour in some quarters, but some view his 'honesty' as ready-made excuses coupled with crushing negativity (which we are all familiar with).

If he does suffer a heavy loss at Goodison this time around, Ellis Short may well opt for a 'new manager' bounce to try and keep Sunderland in the Premier League. I was surprised to learn that this is their 10th straight season in the top flight...

It would be totally humiliating for the man if the same scenario were to play out again, and he was sacked after another Goodison defeat. After all, he did say he was "Going on to bigger and better things." A poor choice of words, Davey, very poor.

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Peter McHugh
1 Posted 17/02/2017 at 00:42:22
I forgot all about the Grim Reaper – that was hilarious!
John Daley
2 Posted 17/02/2017 at 02:40:55
I'm sure a man of Moysie's innate self-confidence is not thinking along those lines at all, Kev. He'll be relishing his return to that 'ungrateful wee club' he dragged up from the depths whilst armed with nothing more than a dinner disc and a charity box. Not like he'll be crapping it or sweating cobs at night or anything:

Link

Michael Kenrick
4 Posted 17/02/2017 at 04:53:46
Fine memories, Kevin, I absolutely loved that Grim Reaper. What a great day that was!

Nothing has given me more pleasure in recent years than the precipitous decline and fall of the pompous self-righteous Presbyterian the we once idolized as "The Moyessiah". Oh how times have changed.

Mike Gaynes
5 Posted 17/02/2017 at 05:32:55
Oh, Kevin

"Some view his 'honesty' as ready-made excuses coupled with crushing negativity (which we are all familiar with)."

Well, some view the so-called "some-view" writer's trick (aka "observers-believe", "some-feel", "many-think" etc.) as a backdoor way of presenting the writer's own opinion. Like yours in this case (which you share with Don Hutchison, BTW).

As you point out, however, the Sunderland fans and press appear to disagree. As the press rips the owner, the fans (and Gerrard) primarily shred the players, particularly Pienaar, Gibson and thank-god-we-didn't-buy-him Kone.

So if you feel the Sunderland fans are idiots for slating the players more than the manager, say so. But don't fall back on "some view"... it's unworthy.

My own opinion is that Zeus, Buddha and St Rita of Cascia working together couldn't keep this side up, but if any manager could do so, it's Dour Davey. I remember too many stirring Blue fightbacks over the years.

Jim Jennings
6 Posted 17/02/2017 at 07:38:11
"Nothing has given me more pleasure in recent years than the precipitous decline and fall of the pompous self-righteous Presbyterian the we once idolized as "The Moyessiah". Oh how times have changed."

That says more about you than anything else, Michael. You need to get out more.

David Barks
7 Posted 17/02/2017 at 07:51:22
Agree with Jim. Pretty sad commentary there.
John G Davies
8 Posted 17/02/2017 at 07:52:17
I agree wholeheartedly with Michael's point.

After years if bullshitting us and glorifying in his own self importance Moyes engineered his move to Utd. All while telling us the approach from Man Utd came out of the blue.

He then went on to make statements when trying to buy Fellaini and Baines "If I was still manager at Everton I would like to think I would do the right thing by the boys, let them move on to further their careers."

He also got a guard of honour. I stayed away from that game when I heard that was happening.

One of the better things to happen to our club in recent years was Moyes going. Kenwright would have given him a 10-year contract if Moyes wanted it. And we would still be wallowing in the "punch above our weight... plucky small club" mentality.

Chris Leyland
9 Posted 17/02/2017 at 07:59:15
What a sad, pathetic, tragic and unfulfilling life someone must have for the most pleasurable thing in that life to be the failure of someone else
Phil Sammon
10 Posted 17/02/2017 at 08:02:51
If I didn't think all religion was bollocks, I'd probably be quite offended by that, Michael.
Andrew Clare
11 Posted 17/02/2017 at 08:07:47
I feel sorry for the Sunderland fans. A great club with great supporters that just cannot get out of the doldrums. Just like Villa, Sheffield Wednesday, Wolves and others. Clubs with real fans – not bandwagon jumpers.

As for Moyes, he was OK for the first 3 years with us no more.

Dermot Byrne
12 Posted 17/02/2017 at 08:16:05
Some selective memories today all round
Trevor Lynes
13 Posted 17/02/2017 at 08:33:50
What I do remember is the absolute fact that he worked without support from the boardroom.During his time we actually had our best defence for years with Distin and Jags forming a wonderful partnership. Likewise the Baines/Pienaar combo was our best attacking outlet in an otherwise lacklustre outfit.He had the safest job in football as his remit was survival with anything better seen as a bonus.Unfortunately he became frustrated at the helm and I am sure that it was Ferguson who turned his head.In truth I hope that he rescues Sunderland after of course losing to us.
Dave Abrahams
14 Posted 17/02/2017 at 09:21:24
I couldn't stand Moyes, the way he agreed with the media hype over his abilities as a manager.

He was found out at Man Utd and Real Sociedad but I was surprised he took the Sunderland job, it was a thankless task and way beyond Moyes to keep them up; even the best of managers would struggle there.

Moyes really does believe he is much better than he is and was foolish to take the Sunderland job, but the club has been in serious decline for a long time and Moyes didn't / couldn't alter the course they have been on for years so I don't believe he can be blamed if they go down.

If they sack him, it will be another great pay off for Davie.

Brian Harrison
15 Posted 17/02/2017 at 09:38:13
I can't see how anybody can take any pleasure in another person possibly losing their job. My opinion is that Moyes did a good job here and I think some forget how close to relegation we were when he took over. I don't know anyone who wouldn't take the Man Utd job if offered it, so I don't criticize him for that, but I do criticize how he had already been tapped up months before he left yet said nothing.

The hardest thing in football is to take over from an icon who had been at the club for 25 years. Same thing happened to Man Utd when Busby stepped down they had a succession of managers that failed. So it was never going to be easy taking over from Ferguson. But Edward Woodward was a new CEO and apparently let Moyes down in the transfer window.

But he bought both Mata and Fellaini who were both regulars for Van Gaal and also now for Mourhino. For me, that was one of Moyes's strong points – he could spot a player. Yes, Krøldrup and Van der Meyde will be mentioned but even Ferguson bought some duds.

Andrew Clare
16 Posted 17/02/2017 at 09:41:05
Dermot,

Whatever you think, Moyes was a mediocre manager who suited our unambitious board down to the ground. Kenwright and Co really let the club go to pot.

Now, we have a proper set-up that befits a club of our standing.

Dermot Byrne
17 Posted 17/02/2017 at 09:59:49
Agree totally, Andrew, but that doesn't make him as bad or heroic as some suggest. In the end, a manager of a club once great that was sinking for various reasons beyond his control. His style matched the wider situation, just as the dream of more assertive and pressing football may well match Moshiri's dreams. Let's hope so and hope people can view Moyes a little more objectively.
Mike Green
19 Posted 17/02/2017 at 10:30:37
Moyes is a good manager.

The issue he has is that he was just right for us, and we were just right for him, at the time he came to the club. Those conditions will never be repeated again for him and he is still living off the "success" he had at Everton, which he had a lot of time and support to put together.

The issue Sunderland have is they don't have time – they need someone to make a quick impact and make it now. That man isn't David Moyes. He is capable of making good decisions and building a good team with great team spirit but takes an age over it – can you remember how long it took him to make a decision over signing Arteta...?

The other issue is the ability to change. David Moyes is a bit of an old dog now without many tricks up his sleeve. I would love him to keep Sunderland up as they are one of my favourite clubs, but whether he could build a team again that comfortably survived in the intensity of the Premier League like he did for us from 2002 onwards is up for debate.

I don't bear him any ill will though. He did a good, and sometimes great, job for us, outstayed his welcome a bit in the final few years and treated us badly when he left – dazzled by his own and the medias hype and the bright lights of Old Trafford. He's had enough kicks since then to hopefully give him a little bit of self awareness and if I were there to welcome him at Goodison I would, albeit it possibly with a wry smile on my face.

We've moved on, so has he, he will always be an important chapter in our history and now the dust has almost settled on his time he spent with us, and the manner in which he left, I wish him well in what he has left of his career particularly as he is now custodian of a club who I'd love to see remain in the top flight.

Daniel Lim
20 Posted 17/02/2017 at 10:58:17
Let's put it this way, next week, if beating Sunderland 7-1 would see him get the axe but 2-0 wouldn't, then I would want us to win 2-0 and get the 3 points and spare him the axe.

However, if a 1-0 would also get him the sack, then sorry the ginger one, get some rest and enjoy the spring.

Antony Matthews
21 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:03:47
I want a 3-0 Everton win and Bradley to have the time of his life.
Ray Roche
22 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:04:36
Dave Abrahams (#14),

It's not often that I either disagree with you. I respect your opinion and your knowledge of things Blue; however, when you say he was "found out" at Man Utd, I don't think that that's strictly true.

As mentioned above, he was let down by the hierarchy at Old Trafford in the transfer market but, despite that, since the War, only two managers have a better win percentage than Moyes: Ferguson on 59.67%, and Mourinho on 57.58% – and Mourhino has spent many millions to achieve his results as well as playing crap football for much of his tenure. Moyes was 52.94%.

In fact, since 1900 there has only been one other manager in addition to the two mentioned who have bettered him. I believe Moyes was unfairly treated by the Press and the dickhead fans at Old Trafford and, with being the first to pick up the poisoned chalice after Ferguson, was on a hiding to nothing.

Old Whisky Nose sitting in the stand watching every move didn't help either; the cameras were always going to pick his grid up, weren't they? (If he'd had any class, he'd have stayed away for a few months...)

James Hughes
23 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:05:14
Moyes got a big break when he was chosen to manage us but when he arrived we were a basket case of a club. I remember Walter Smith's last team selection against 'Boro was farcical He seemed to have selected the players at random by picking names out of a hat. At least Davie began using players in their right positions and brought us stability.

His ready agreement that we were plucky and punching above our weight was the perfect cover for his lack of ambition. The "knife to a gunfight" spin got on my nerves. Learn how to use a knife properly and it is just as deadly as a gun in most fights.

The team were bobbing along and at least we weren't worrying about whether we would be involved in a relegation fight at the start of every season. For that Mr Moyes, I will thank you. We even finished in the top four and Champion's league beckoned again many thanks from me, for that achievement.

His behaviour in his move to Man Utd is what has blotted his copy book for me. He ran down his contract meaning we didn't receive any compensation was annoying. My opinion on that, is that he knew Man Utd wouldn't buy him out and he knew not to sign a new contract, but that is just my theory.

The moving on to 'bigger & better things' really got up my nose as did the desultory bids for players and stating that he wouldn't have stood in their way if a better club had come calling when he manged them, well that made my blood boil.

The clincher for me was when he came out and said we should be GRATEFUL for his tenure.... Grateful, fucking grateful, – the bare-faced cheek of the twat!!!

The club paid you a fortune, forgave you the times you got close to winning something, before wetting yourself and running away.... aye, I am fucking grateful, you dunderheid.

He got his comeuppance for that and at the club that made him, for me that was quits. He can do what he wants as long as he shows EFC the respect it deserves.


Andrew Clare
24 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:29:45
Dermot and Mike,

I agree with your points but I still believe that Moyes is an average manager. The media (as always) made a big noise about him and people believed it. Only us Evertonians knew otherwise.

Eugene Ruane
25 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:41:36
Mike # 19 - 'Moyes is a good manager.'

Depends how you define 'good.'

If by good you mean..um..er...good, I disagree.

Brian Furey
26 Posted 17/02/2017 at 11:53:01
We've had some terrible managers over the last 30 years but for me Moyesy was one of our better ones. As we saw with Villa last year no team is too big to get relegated and before defensive midfielders came in we were down there struggling quite a lot. When he came in we had no money yet he built a new team from finding good players like Tim Cahill from the lower leagues.

He's the ONLY manager in my lifetime to bring us to 4th place and Champions League football and that was with very poor strikers. He must think to himself what could HIS Everton team have achieved if they had Lukaku during those seasons near the top 5 or in Europe.

Yes his record against the top 4 teams was poor and he probably didn't have the mindset to bring us (or anyone) to the next level but say what you want he DID make us a top 6 team and brought us to the FA Cup Final all on a shoestring budget.

His record against the RS was the biggest let down for me but in my eyes he's the man that saved us from relegation and made us a stable top 10 club that we could build on.

Of course his leaving wasn't pleasant but what player or manager leaving is ever smooth. Most of our previous managers had been sacked (though Royle & Kendall resigned) so it was a new experience for one of our managers to be headhunted.

Daniel Lim
27 Posted 17/02/2017 at 12:02:11
Won almost 53% of the matches? Where did you get that stats, Ray?
Mike Green
28 Posted 17/02/2017 at 12:13:43
Daniel - I know Ray can fight his own battles but as it was in front of me see managerial record in link below:

Link

Eugene - I know where you are coming from as I remember sharing your frustrations with him in the final few seasons. Over the course of his tenure all in all I think he did a good job but I completely understand why he's viewed negatively by many.

Its a subjective measurement (especially when you look some of the dross in the list) but he won 3 LMA Manager of the Year awards so, regardless of whether we think he did a good job or not, his peers obviously did.

Daniel Lim
29 Posted 17/02/2017 at 12:21:58
Thanks Mike.

I thought Ray was talking about the years at Everton. Anyway, 53% win percentage isn't really a bad number.

Ray Roche
30 Posted 17/02/2017 at 13:15:33
Thanks Mike. I'd just strapped on my nosebag otherwise I'd have gladly answered Daniel's question. Here's another link (below) where you can check other clubs managerial successes. Or failures ours is interesting.

http://www.managerstats.co.uk/clubs/manchester-united/

Tony Cunningham
31 Posted 17/02/2017 at 13:24:23
I hope that we tonk them but hope he keeps his job and good luck to him. Whilst his time with us was far from perfect he was also a vast improvement on what came before and what came after. We all know the constraints he was under and how we consistently performed 'quite well'.

Yes he could have been more positive, yes he could have aimed a little higher, rather than aiming to be the best of the rest and yes he could have done his departure differently but I do hope he can guide Sunderland to safety... after losing 8-0 to us.

Dave Abrahams
32 Posted 17/02/2017 at 14:09:38
Ray (22), fair enough Ray, it's all a matter of opinion, I just thought by Moyes own actions he couldn't believe he had been offered the job. He stated "Sir Alex summoned me to his house, and I was in jeans and a tee-shirt." I thought, "He's only going to see a fellow manager, what's he worried about his clobber for, it's not The Archbishop of Canterbury or The Pope, just go and see what he wants."

Then, when he gets the job, and on his first meeting with the players, he buys each of them an expensive present... for God's sake, he's the bleeding boss... show them who's in charge! He started on the wrong foot and never recovered.

The players soon smelt him out and he was never in control; the fans were quick to follow, knew he was a duff. The old fan outside Old Traffold explained why, finished up calling his management 'Bobbins' (shit) and he was spot on.

I don't think he was ever really in charge of the Man Utd team, but that's the way I saw it.

Dave Wilson
33 Posted 17/02/2017 at 14:33:30
I never did understand the hostility towards him when he was manager here. He wasn't given a fraction of the funds afforded to Martinez, but he made us best of the rest for most of the time he was here. He achieved top four with what many people believed to be relegation favorites. Gave us some great football, introducing great players like Arteta, Cahill, Osman, Seamus,the Baines/ Pienaar partnership. brought bargains in like Jagielka,

Moyes is our best manager so far for introducing teenagers - Rooney, Vaughan at sixteen, not to mention Velios, Barkley, Big vic, Rodwell

He got ten excellent years out of players like Osman and Hibbert after many people had claimed they were not Premier League material and by losing in a cup final, he brought us as close to success as you can get without actually winning something. All this on a shoe string

If Mr Koeman could have been installed as boss straight after Moyesie, we would have been in business, but I fear his first two years are going to be spent cleaning up the mess Martinez left.

He may have killed a lot of the good wishes with his statements after he left, but while he was here, he did more than a fantastic job.

Clive Rogers
34 Posted 17/02/2017 at 14:35:50
When he joined us, he was a good young manager who needed to learn and improve with experience. At first he seemed to, up to a point, but his inherent negativity seemed to dominate and it became obvious he would never become a winning manager.

47 games against 4 of the top clubs and not one win. He didn't seem to understand strikers at all, seemingly coaching goalscoring out of them. He was a disaster at Real Sociedad and seems to have become a very poor manager.

Mike Green
35 Posted 17/02/2017 at 14:37:50
Interesting reading Ray! Get that Unsworth chap in charge thats what I say.

I did a bit of analysis after Martinez left and drew the conclusion that to be classed as a top drawer manager you needed to be in the "50%" club – the only one we've had is Kendall Mk1.

Post-war Arsenal have only had Wenger (though George Graham on 49.02%), Chelsea have had at least 10 (! – all in the last 20 years), Liverpool have had 9 with Dalglish in 60% club, Man City's last 2 have, Man Utd have had 7 with Fergie missing out on the 60 club by .33 of a %, Spurs have had three or four and have done well in recent years.

Ron's managerial record sits at 54.34% across his career and at 42.86% with us – so at the moment he looks off the pace but my gut feeling is that % is only going to get better and if he can drag himself into the 50s we might start to see some real success on the pitch.

Jay Harris
36 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:07:34
No subsequent manager has done any better than Moyes who operated on a negative budget for players while he was here and built a consistent top six side out of a relegation squad he inherited.

He brought us the likes of Coleman, Stones,Tim Howard, Tim Cahilll, Arteta and so on.

The only blot on his copybook at Everton was the manner of his departure and subsequent put down of the club where he was idolised.

He was not "found out" at Man Utd – he was stitched up by the clique of past it players that he inherited from Ferguson and to put the record straight no subsequent united manager has bettered his points total over the first 54 games despite spending hundreds of millions on new players.

I will be forever grateful that he put us back on the map despite Scrooge Kenwright and cronies but hugely disappointed in the subsequent behaviour after he left.

Kevin Tully
37 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:11:16
Dave #33. I wouldn't call it 'hostility' to be honest. It seems that anyone who is part of modern day football is treated as a demigod, probably due to the vast amounts of money involved in the game. Should we really feel sorry for a guy who is probably worth upwards of £20m for picking a footy team?

It just so happens our ex-manager could be on the verge of a second dismissal after a game at his old club. To listen to some virtuous souls, it shouldn't even be mentioned and rose petals should adorn the floor of the Sunderland dressing room on return of dour Davey.

If nobody wants to recognise the 'schadenfreude' of the situation, that's their choice. I certainly don't hate the man (I don't actually 'hate' anyone) but it's footy, and taking the piss should be mandatory.

Mike Gaynes
38 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:17:27
Brian (#26), I doubt Lukaku could have helped Moyes much during his 2005-2009 purple patch.

Rom was only about 13 years old.

David Graves
39 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:20:00
I understand that there will be fans who believe that he did a good job at Everton but to refer to him as "more than fantastic"... Really?
Mike Gaynes
40 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:24:50
James #23...

"The clincher for me was when he came out and said we should be GRATEFUL for his tenure."

Maybe it's down to advancing senility, but I have absolutely no recollection of Moyes saying that, or anything close to that. When? Where? To whom?

Patrick Murphy
41 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:30:02
Whatever David Moyes achieved at Everton, it doesn't make him one of the all-time great Everton managers, nor does it make him a complete write off.

He did a 'good' job in difficult financial circumstances but was found wanting when the chips were down, when it came to winning important matches. He's on a par with the likes of Gordon Lee and Billy Bingham but not as bad as Mike Walker or Roberto Martinez. I really don't care what he does for the rest of his career as long as he never returns as the Everton boss. If he does... well, good luck to him; if he doesn't – so what!

He was well looked after by Everton FC and the majority of the crowd gave him an easier time than many former and more recent managers have received. I like Sunderland and, apart from next Saturday, I hope they win enough points to avoid relegation, but that sentiment has nothing to do with who their manager happens to be.

John Daley
42 Posted 17/02/2017 at 15:49:28
Mike (@40),

In the press: Moyes claimed he was "disappointed" by the reception he received from Evertonian's and then went on to list all his 'achievements' with the club. The achievement he was most proud of being 'turning Everton into a team who beat the big clubs on a budget'. The implication being he deserved better for everything (he felt) he had done for the club.

In a hotel bar: An irate Moyes (allegedly) called Everton supporters "a fucking disgrace" after they beat Man Utd at Old Trafford.

Tony Abrahams
43 Posted 17/02/2017 at 16:05:19
Mike 35, very interesting information that mate.

If Man Utd, wasn't too big for Moyes, then he wouldn't have acted in the pathetic manner, in which he did towards Everton, which is something the man will surely regret until his dyeing day?

Ray, good point about Man Utd not backing him, even if he did pay over 㿨 Million, for two midfield players, who would never really compliment each other. It's opinions I know, but the way he spent the Lescott money, was the final straw for me.

Guy Hastings
44 Posted 17/02/2017 at 16:14:13
Moyes was skewered at Man Utd – whoever took the job was going to be knifed in a very short time. Anyone who took it would have known the wounds would at least be staunched with bundles of fivers.
Mike Green
46 Posted 17/02/2017 at 16:47:24
Tony / Ray – it's all a bit chicken and egg too though – big clubs = best players + good managers = high win rate. Surprise, surprise! :)

Interestingly Cloughies win rate over his career was 46.5% and he never got over 50% for any of the 5 clubs he managed. His quality might have been not necessarily winning the most games but winning the right games, if that makes sense.

Since beating Arsenal, we have W 6, D 3 and L 1 (to LFC in the last minute). That's a 60% win rate with some notable scalps. That's the sort of form that can really take us places and is hopefully the start of things to come rather than a brief flash in the pan.

John Daley
47 Posted 17/02/2017 at 16:47:49
Just reading back through this thread and I really don't get the rush to reappraise the Moyessiah's Man Utd reign. He was a calamity whilst there, irrespective of how his win ratio stacks up to others.

How many of the other guys he's being compared to got handed a Championship winning squad that had just sprinted away with the league title by an 11-point margin? Van Gaal and Mourinho certainly didn't. They were left trying to stomach pump a side shorn of the decades long 'aura' Moyes made short work of dulling and eventually erasing.

A 52.94% win ratio means sod all when you're stacking up these sorts of 'records' in swift succession::
-------------

Everton winning at Old Trafford for the first time in 21 years.

West Brom winning at Old Trafford for the first time in 37 years.

Newcastle winning at Old Trafford for the first time in 41 years.

Swansea's first ever win at Old Trafford.

Stoke beating Man Utd for the first time in 30 years.

First ever defeat to a Greek side.

First time Everton achieved a league double over Man Utd since the Premier League started (first time since 69-70).

First time Man City achieved a league double over Man Utd since the Premier League started.

First time Liverpool achieved a league double over Man Utd since the Premier League started.

More defeats at home than in the previous three seasons combined (6 in one season under Moyes, 5 in the 3 years pre-Moyes).

First time failing to qualify for the Champions League since 1995.

Lowest ever Premier League points tally.

Highest number of defeats.

Worst goal difference.

Three defeats in a row for the first time since 2001.

Worst home league form for more than a decade.

----------------

That's the regularly fucked, deflated sex doll of a side Van Gaal had the task of tooting fresh air into. An entirely different proposition to the one his predecessor faced when he rocked through the door in his Reebok 'Pump', stay-creased action slack's and ropey Grattan's cardy with a shit-eating grin on his grid like Tony Montana after 'wiping out' that arl wanker who looked like the dad out of 'Crazy Like a Fox', before 'wiping it off' on Michelle Pfeiffer (back when she was a fox and it would be crazy not to).

Dermot Byrne
48 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:04:30
John: what the effect does all that mean?
Eugene Ruane
49 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:10:01
Dave (#33) – "...he did more than a fantastic job."

A MORE than fantastic job?

Fuck me, I thought Kendall (Mk 1) did a fantastic job, so how one 4th place in 11 years and choking in an FA Cup final tops that, I'd love to know.

Seriously, if you think Moyes's efforts were 'more than fantastic', your expectations must have been lower than a pot-holing python's ball-bag.

Mike Dolan
50 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:11:33
I too think Moyes is a good manager for a mid table Prem club that was surviving from hand to mouth. He had his team playing hard and to the limits of their abilities and I think most teams knew they had been in a game after facing Moyes's Everton, he also brought in some good players and left the (albeit aging) club in a much better position than when he found it. Certainly not fantasy 'Roy of the Rovers' stuff but a workingman like job well done with limited resources.

Did he save Everton? Perhaps not as much as he gives himself credit for, I always think it was the Rooney money that saved Everton. Nevertheless I thank him still for his contributions and wish him well.

Mike Green
51 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:13:26
Moyes was also doomed because he was Fergie's man, not the club's, so the second Ferguson walked out of the door, the only person who wanted him there was gone, leaving behind an unparalleled record for him to be judged against, which accounts for many of the Premier League failures in John Daley's list.

From the day he walked into Fergie's lounge he was fucked, basically.

Mike Gaynes
52 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:16:43
John (#42)... yes, I remember the first comment. Never for a moment believed the second... the tale about him drowning his sorrows in a hotel bar after a game is just too pat, and atypical of his behavior.

Regardless, neither remark even remotely resembled Moyes saying anything about how grateful Everton fans should be to him. Your "implication" is a stretch far beyond the actual quote in my opinion.

Unless somebody can show me different, I say the so-called quote in James's #23 post never happened.

Phil Walling
53 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:30:24
Never thought I'd read such a shameful rant from the editor of ToffeeWeb, Michael. Your religion-based remarks shame you just as glorying in another's misfortune points to a total lack of balance in the discharge of your duties.
Phil Bellis
54 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:32:39
Interesting read..

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/david-moyes-deserves-play-no-11375200

Dermot Byrne
55 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:34:09
Andrew 24 my point exactly. Selective memories. No awful, not brill. Just average when that was our vision.
James Hughes
56 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:35:04
Mike (#40) it was on Sky Sports as I recall. Goals on Sunday programme. I stand by my statement.
James Hughes
57 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:39:17
Mike, I was also trying to objective about Moyes's tenure, so merely trying to highlight his highs and lows.
Ray Roche
58 Posted 17/02/2017 at 17:43:49
Some interesting stats on here, here's some more.

When Moyes joined us, we were dead in the water. He had nine games in which we won 4, drew 1 and lost four. We scored 18 goals. In Walter's last nine games we won 1, drew 4 and lost 4. We scored 4 goals. And Walter's side had a run of 6 defeats and 1 draw prior to that.

We had 30 points and finished with 43, 7 from relegation. The following season we finished 7th, our highest position for seven years.

Without Moyes, we would have gone down, no question. For that reason alone, we owe him some respect. It's just a shame he pissed on his chips with his behaviour after he left.

Ste Traverse
59 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:02:51
He left with a lot of goodwill but blew it by trying to be 'Billy Big Time' and looking down on us within a few months of leaving.

Compare the send-off he got after his last home game in charge to the shit Rooney got for years for making the exact same move.

And I don't buy into this nonsense about people having 'short memories' because he did a decent job here. He took the piss by stringing us along during his last season by saying he'd look at a new deal at the end of the season when he'd obviously been tipped off by Man Utd leaving us with no compensation off one of the world's richest clubs.

Failure after failure since leaving us. Exposed at Man Utd without his Kenwright protective shield. Lasted less than a year in Spain before being bombed out. He even breezed into Sunderland declaring himself a 'Champions League level manager' as if he was doing them a favour and somehow above them.

'Moving on to bigger and better things' was his infamous quote when departing for Man Utd. Well, it looks like he'll soon be taking the Mackems down to the Championship and I doubt he'll get another Premier League job again once he gets his third sacking in 3 years.

No sympathy for the man.

Mike Green
60 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:08:43
Interestingly, Koeman is five weeks older than Moyes – they will be 54 respectively this March / April. Neither of them are spring chickens which probably explains Koeman's rush to get on now.

They both started coaching at almost exactly the same time (‘97-98) so how do they compare?

Moyes has managed 5 clubs and only won the 2nd Division with Preston and a Charity Shield with Man Utd. As a player, he won a couple of titles with Celtic and Preston and some Members Cup with Bristol. Win rate 43.09%.

Koeman has managed 9 clubs, has won three Dutch titles, the Copa del Rey and a couple of other cups / shields. As a player, he won pretty much everything, the only thing really missing is a World Cup Winners medal. Win rate 54.34%.

Currently their performance as Everton managers is about level – out of both Cups and 7th in the League. That's pretty Moyes-esque (OK a bit unfair but you know what I mean…)

Koeman has had, and will get, far more money than Moyes and if he is successful that will be a major factor. The difference between two of them for me though is expectations.

I think Moyes in the end accepted our place as also-rans, accepted that playing the same players, to the same system would keep us bobbing us around safely, get us to a final and even in the Champions League places but without money I think he accepted in the final years that we would win nothing. And then it happened – he got his golden shot to go to Man Utd and has been reeling ever since. I think in that respect Moyes probably peaked about 10 years ago and now has been left haunted by his Man Utd experience. To an extent he is damaged goods.

I think Koeman is very different. I don't think he accepts mediocrity and if he isn't given the tools to do the job he'll go somewhere where he is. I think he will be far more demanding of the owners than Moyes was and probably far more demanding of the players.

He has been there, seen it and done it as a player but is yet to crack it as a manager – he is still on an upwards trajectory though and clearly wants more. In that respect I think he knows the next five years are crucial – if he wants his managerial career to hold a candle to his playing career he needs to really start making waves at Everton so my prediction is we will start to see the players, performances and results come through providing he stays with us.

That, after all, isn't just what he is striving for, it will be one of the main aims of the “project” that he sold to by Moshiri and why Walsh was brought in and we might have a dockside stadium on the horizon.

So for me – chronologically their careers go hand in hand but are heading in opposite directions. Moyes went as far as he could go with Everton, whereas I think Koeman expects to go much, much further.

Tony McNulty
61 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:13:08
Mike Dolan (50) Reading some of the words in your post made me think of a slightly different epitaph for Moyes:

He makes teams play to the limits of his abilities.

Eugene Ruane
62 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:37:00
I may have, many years ago, had a hand in the Moyes Presbyterian 'thing' but as you can see (620 Link) I do make it clear I'm talking philosophically.

Personally I've always seen presbyterians as reliable and trustworthy (it's like the labrador of religions).

In fact if I had a little shop, I certainly think I'd be better putting the average presbo in charge of the cash register, rather than..someone like me for instance.

As a very non-orthodox Jew myself (ie: a lapsed catholic) I'd be filling my boots every time my back was turned.

Jim Hardin
63 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:45:25
John Daley,

You have criticized Moyes for what he did to a title winning team but didn't the "Special One" take his champions down to the lower half of the table the following season before abandoning ship halfway through the season? Hmm... how is that possible with the same set of players? Where are Leicester this season?

I love the view that Moyes individually wrecked the team to the point that LVG (and you add Jose) had to rebuild it. Bull!

Ferguson stopped growing the team with new talent and decided to ride out the old talent and mid-table talent that he had in the squad, while hoping for no injuries etc. (Even RVP managed to stay out of the training room for Sir Alex for the first time in his EPL career.) He got lucky and it worked out. Didn't happen for Moyes.

To say that LVG was undoing what Moyes created is false. Jose is not only not undoing Moyes's handiwork, he is still using Moyes's two biggest acquisitions. He has shipped out Fergie's and LVG's players.

Moyes was a good manager for Everton, maybe even better than good. But, unlike the owners of Cardiff, or even QPR or Villa, he did nothing to harm the club so why the ill wishes towards him? The only people who should be bitter with him are those who wanted him to renew his contract and remain at Everton another decade or so. Are you one of them, John?

John Daley
64 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:48:25
Go on then Phil (@53), which 'religion based' remarks do you find shameful? Simple use of the word 'Presbyterian' alone? I can't imagine how incensed you must have been at Tim Howard sporting a scraggy arsed itchy beard in blatant mockery of Mormon beliefs.

As for this: "glorying in another's misfortune..."?

Fuck me. You're the fella who spent two year's revelling in the fact that Martinez went off the rails, in the hope you could finally holler "HEY! My 'prescient' 50/50 call was right".

John Daley
65 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:55:55
"You have criticized Moyes for what he did to a title winning team but didn't the "Special One" take his champions down to the lower half of the table the following season before abandoning ship halfway through the season"

Yes, I did and yes, he did.

What has one got to do with the other?

John Daley
66 Posted 17/02/2017 at 18:59:04
"He (Alex Ferguson) got lucky and it worked out. Didn't happen for Moyes".

Ferguson: 38 trophies

Moyes: 1 Charity Shield.

Luck. That's what it all boils down to.

Mike Green
67 Posted 17/02/2017 at 19:11:33
Not taking into account the 12 he won north of the border John (#66).

Love him or loathe him – 50 trophies, most at the very top, is nothing short of amazing. Wow...

Mike Gaynes
68 Posted 17/02/2017 at 19:36:30
James (#57), not criticizing your arguments, just your Moyes quote.

Seems to me that a comment like that would make big headlines, yet none of the other longtimers here seem to remember it -- certainly nobody else has jumped in to say they do -- and an exhaustive Google search turns up zero references to it.

Memories are funny things. I clearly recall shagging a Playboy bunny a couple decades ago...

Mike Gaynes
69 Posted 17/02/2017 at 19:50:47
John #64, FYI beards are forbidden to Mormon leaders, missionaries and members of the choir... but not within the flock.

Eugene #62, mazel tov on your post I also took Michael's use of "Presbyterian" more as an adjective than a religious commentary, although it's also true that his Moyes loathing crossed over into jihad a long time ago.

Sam Hoare
70 Posted 17/02/2017 at 20:05:49
Post-Everton experiences (so far) would suggest that Moyes is not a top class manager. But even if he managed to get Chelsea relegated (an opportunity he is unlikely to get) then I would still believe he did a very good job for us.

We were terrible when he came and flirting very heavily with relegation (by flirting I mean we had one hand up its thigh and another dialling a cab home). He turned us from a bottom 6 team into a top 6 team with a negligible net spend which is a fairly remarkable feat and one that many teams since have tried to replicate.

Even if things got pretty stale towards the end and he was possibly the dourest man to ever walk this Earth, he still gave us the platform from which we are now benefitting. For that I will always be grateful.

Patrick Murphy
71 Posted 17/02/2017 at 20:09:32
Mike (#68),

I'm not sure which quote the 'long-timers' on here don't remember; however, there was a strong denial by David Moyes about what he is reputed to have said to an Everton supporter the night the Blues won 1-0 at Old Trafford.

Link

Tony Hill
72 Posted 17/02/2017 at 20:31:05
Mike (#67), and yet he never quite fulfilled himself in Europe with Man Utd. The obvious answer is that the other teams were too good but he had mature and formidable weapons at his disposal for about 10 years and didn't manage to perform well enough and often enough in my opinion. Perhaps I'm being too harsh.

A fascinating man, the closest to Shankly in my lifetime, as a force of will in football and as a working class success. Of course, Shankly didn't ever do it in Europe either and was betrayed by the RS. I'm pleased that Ferguson has retained his dignity in retirement.

Fucking idiot for anointing Davey as his heir, mind you, though not as much of an idiot as Davey for accepting and signing his own death warrant.

Brian Harrison
73 Posted 17/02/2017 at 20:35:11
Patrick,

As I remember, Moyes was in a bar... may even have been in the Lowery hotel. The story goes that a couple of Evertonians approached him and obviously one thing led to another and it was claimed that Moyes said Evertonians should be grateful for what he did for the club rather than slag him off.

Now apart from the guys who spoke to him and Moyes himself, nobody will know what or wasn't said by whom. I also vaguely remember that some hotel security had to intervene.

Mike Gaynes
74 Posted 17/02/2017 at 21:23:47
Patrick (#71) and Brian (#73), a fan who ran into Moyes at the Lowery – in the hotel, but not in the bar apparently – claimed he was drunk and said the following:

"... after 11 years it's a disgrace how the fans treated me tonight. From how I found them to how I left them, a fucking disgrace."

Then supposedly Moyes was whisked away by hotel security.

No corroboration from any witnesses, which is really odd with a celebrity in a busy hotel. Strongly denied by Moyes and the club. And Moyes has had no other history of public drunkenness. So I didn't buy this story. Still don't.

And again, even as quoted by the fan, there was nothing said about how "grateful" the supporters should be, which is the quote James remembers.

Rob Halligan
75 Posted 17/02/2017 at 21:41:05
For anyone interested. BT Sport 2 @ 9:45 has an in depth look at Premier League management with David Moyes.
Andy Crooks
76 Posted 17/02/2017 at 22:56:00
Dave Wilson # 33, are you THE Dave Wilson of years gone by ? If so, welcome back. You were involved in some fierce debates on here.
David Donnellan
77 Posted 18/02/2017 at 08:21:09
Someone on here put up a link of Moyes's managerial record on Wikipedia. (Sorry, I can't remember who & I can't be arsed to go back through the comments.)

Anyway, whatever minor achievements were listed on that link, the only thing that was telling for me was that the one club he so far has spent the massive majority of his managerial career with, had nothing to show for all of his time there.

Moyes was a good manager & did a good job under difficult circumstances when he came in & gave us respectability again, but he had no idea how to build further on that & seemed content to battle it out with the best of the rest each season.

There has only been one manager worthy of being called fantastic in my lifetime & that was Kendall, what a team he built!

On the topic of the original post, I honestly couldn't care about him anymore, he is just a manager of another Premier League club, who over time has been shown to have more in common with Fat Sam or Pulis than the stupid comparison that the media used to make with Fergie.

I too wasn't happy with the way he left & his subsequent disrespect to my beloved club, but he never moved onto better things as he hoped & he finds himself where he is now. If he is sacked after our game next week, I really don't care either way anymore.

Dermot Byrne
78 Posted 18/02/2017 at 08:34:29
Steve 59: you are my case. You say he had good will then lost it by the way he left.

Where did the goodwill come from? The goodish things he did. Your lack of sympathy, comes from the shitty way he left. So pluses and minuses. Not all one or the other.

My point about selective memories is about people either nearly canonising him or presenting him as the Prince of Darkness.

Dermot Byrne
79 Posted 18/02/2017 at 08:44:18
Eugene 62: very funny post mate. As someone who shares your lapsedness, we may not be the best with the till but who would you ask to organise the annual works party?
Ian Bennett
80 Posted 18/02/2017 at 08:58:53
Two things Moyes should have known. We don't sell cheap and it's all down hill after leaving Everton.

Rooney had a fantastic career, but even his own fans never loved him. He will always be the scouse hired hand.

Mike Green
81 Posted 18/02/2017 at 09:21:58
Very good point Ian. Moyes got to the stage where he thought he had outgrown us and it was the club that was holding him back from success rather than the other way around. That was his undoing in the long run.
Steve Ferns
82 Posted 18/02/2017 at 09:42:17
The bottom line on Moyes for me is two fold. He improved us, stabilised us, and laid the foundations (on and off the field) on which we can still build something special. But ultimately, he was incapable of winning anything, just a FA Cup Runners-Up medal to show for 11 years at the 4th most successful club in England.

I 've got a tenner on him keeping Sunderland up though, and I still think i'm gonna win that one.

Rob Dolby
83 Posted 18/02/2017 at 10:34:20
Moyes was our poor man's version of Arsene Wenger. He stabilised us on and off the field and that was it really. No silverware... no real wins against big teams. Knives to gunfights etc etc.

I applauded him during the lap of mediocrity at the final game of the season. He then went right down in my estimation as he totally pissed us off with his comments and pursuits of Baines and Fellaini, belittling the club that had made him a millionaire is a bit eggy in my opinion.

I am not arsed about him anymore as he isn't our manager. I do wish that the likes of him, Allardyce and Pullis all get relegated as their brand of football is non-progressive and is just a glorified Charles Hughes Wimbledon style that I think has set back the English game years.

Tony Abrahams
84 Posted 18/02/2017 at 10:52:58
The Labrador of religions, brilliant! Moyes wasn't unlucky at Man Utd, he was just way out of his depth. Telling Ferdinand, to defend like Jagielka? No disrespect to our club captain, but fucking hell?
Ciarán McGlone
85 Posted 18/02/2017 at 10:54:26
My favourite
Chris Leyland
86 Posted 18/02/2017 at 11:06:24
Rob Dolby – to be fair, he did have some 'real wins against big teams'; the problem was that there were not enough of them.

For me, his most memorable of these was the 3-0 against the RedShite in 2006, which was our biggest win against them since we won 4-0 at Anfield 1964. The 3-0 win also remains our biggest victory against them at Goodison since World War 2 ended.

Charlie Lloyd
87 Posted 18/02/2017 at 12:08:23
A limited manager who has proved it with his hardly inspiration recruitment of most of the players from the Everton treatment room.

He's done ok by us. Stabilised us over his difficult financial tenure then gifted us a load cash for some of our players who are nowhere near the first team.

Glad I'm not a Mackem though!

Martin Nicholls
89 Posted 18/02/2017 at 15:03:25
Majority opinion seems to be that Moyes was the right man for us at the right time but, having done a fairly decent job, he then let us down over the manner of his departure and subsequent remarks. I am with that majority.

Of course he didn't win any silverware with us but to be fair to him, he was shorn of the spine of his team (Jagielka, Arteta and the Yak) in the Chelsea final when he came closest – had it not been for that bad luck, who knows what might have happened? I for one believe that the FA Cup would have been ours.

I wish him no ill will and, as I have a soft spot for Sunderland fans, I hope they survive, but only after getting the mother of all beatings next Saturday!

Peter Barry
90 Posted 18/02/2017 at 15:21:03
The deceitful way Dour Davey left and his comments about Everton 'holding back' players once he moved on left a bad taste in my mouth. I have no respect for the man whatsoever.
Eugene Ruane
91 Posted 18/02/2017 at 17:33:06
Martin # 89 - 'Majority opinion seems to be that Moyes was the right man for us at the right time..'

True, but incredible (to me) that 'at the time' was 11 YEARS before he fucked off.

He was like a plumber who arrives at your house at seven in the morning to fix a leak, does the job in five mins, then sits there all day drinking your tea and eating your chocolate digestives.

And when you see what he's charged you for the job, your eyes actually water.

And he only fucks off when his mobile rings telling him of another job (or... something).

Ray Said
92 Posted 18/02/2017 at 18:36:18
A big part of the problem with Moyes's later years and his over-inflated opinion of his status was down to Kenwright building Moyes up to be the saviour of the club and a mixture of Catterick and Kendall with the wisdom of Solomon thrown in for good measure. He was allowed full rein to do what he wanted – within the budget – play favourites and was unsackable.

If he had not walked, he would still be there today, Moshiri very likely would not have bought in to the club, and Kenwright would still be bigging Moyes up as the best manager in the world.

Yes, blame Moyes for the team stagnating but more blame on Kenwright for managing the expectations of the club down so younger fans bought into the 'punching above our weight' crap.

Lev Vellene
93 Posted 18/02/2017 at 18:53:42
Moyes was good for us at the time, but we'd all grown impatient about his lack of ambition, I think we can say!

All knew that Ferguson had him as his ideal replacement well before he left, so I'll skip all that 'Oops???'

As SAF said later, he never thought David Moyes would just dismiss all of the old MU staff, thus leaving himself short of anyone teaching him how MU worked!

Some fond memories, yes! But anything to inspire awe to this day? ...no!

I still hope we will treat Moyes with some respect (even if not by applause...), and not behave like kopites...

Dermot Byrne
94 Posted 18/02/2017 at 19:19:45
Agree Lev. I think he will get lukewarm applause and then be ignored. It is easy to spout fierce aggression alone at your keyboard but at the ground, a similar reaction runs the risk of a dose of reality when some guy turns round and says "Shut the fuck up, ya prat!"
Oliver Molloy
95 Posted 18/02/2017 at 20:08:18
I don't think anyone could honestly argue that Moyes did not steady the club , likewise I don't think anyone could honestly argue he did not stand still after 3 or four seasons.
We could debate that lack of funds was a contributor to his standing still, there could be no debate on how negative he was on his approach to tactics etc.

For a man our Chairman thought the world of, and paid a fortune to, he had a short memory after he left us. He was quite the arsehole with some of his comments.

When he let be known he was quitting to join Man Utd (because Ferguson had told him not to sign a new contract with Everton, so he knew) Kenwright should have told him there and then he would not be required for the five or six games of the season. Kenwright not only let himself down in my opinion, but also the club in my opinion.

Moyes took the club's money, because he was entitled to it, but there had been many whispers of rumours that Moyes was Ferguson's choice; none of us thought that Ferguson carried enough weight to make sure he got the job.

Anyway, the important thing is he leaves Goodison Park with no points come next week.

Tom Bowers
96 Posted 18/02/2017 at 22:06:05
How does one judge a good manager?

Whilst the big money clubs expect nothing less than top tier finishing and Euro success most of the rest are usually judged on keeping their teams in the Premier League where the big prize money is at the end of the season. Moyes did that but got into a rut where it looked Everton would not get anywhere near the Kendall Era days. Many may believe that given more time he could have improved things but subsequent failings at Man Utd, Sociedad and now Sunderland prove he doesn't have the right charisma needed.

Martinez flattered to deceive and came as no surprise when things went pear-shaped. However, Keoman may be lucky because he has the financial clout of Moshiri and despite the shock of losing big money buy Bolasie, the team has actually done well since. Without getting ahead of ourselves, we have cautious optimism that finally the team is in good hands.

Dennis Stevens
97 Posted 18/02/2017 at 22:06:20
I was impressed with the way Moyes dragged the club to safety when he first arrived & also by his first full season. However, he was a yo-yo manager & only finally achieved successive top half finishes in his 6th season - by which time he was lucky to still be here after having previously finished 17th! Once he seemed to have the knack of keeping the team at or around the "best of the rest", it became clear that was the limit of his ambition - at least as manager of Everton, anyway.

His ambition was always to get the MUFC job & he didn't want to jeopardise that by forsaking dull consistency & actually endeavouring to win something, imo, too risky. Ironic that the one time he came close he was robbed of so many key players in Jagielka, Arteta & Yakubu, and even Hibbert had only just returned from injury.

That was really as good as it was going to get & I would like to have seen him leave perhaps 3 seasons or so earlier than he did. But there was only one job he was waiting for & the incumbent kept hanging on for yet another season.

When it finally came, the manner of his departure was a disgrace, both on his part and the club's. As seemed apparent at the time & was subsequently confirmed, he was tapped up & was happy not to sign a contract & to leave the club that had made him a very rich man with no compensation for the loss of his services. He was also happy to continue being paid by one club despite having already started work at another rival club.

As previously mentioned, Kenwright was also at fault, at the very least Moyes should have been put on garden leave or offered the option to end his contract early, if he wished to commence his new employment asap. He should not have been in charge for the last few matches nor offered the outrageous farewell, which was a complete piss-take.

I felt he left as a snake & his subsequent actions did nothing to cause me to reconsider that view. So I'll be happy to see him slither away empty handed with the hapless Mackems next week.

Dan Davies
98 Posted 18/02/2017 at 23:26:31
To be fair, the Grim Reaper moment was funny...
Jim Hardin
99 Posted 19/02/2017 at 00:33:41
John Daley,

Your argument was in part, that Moyes must be a poor manager because look what he did to a title-winning team. I pointed out two others who did the same thing (or are in the process of doing so). You then dismiss it. If it wasn't a relevant point then why did you use struggling with a defending champion team in support of your judgment on Moyes to begin with?

The point is even good managers can have the same thing happen, so how does the fact of it happening mean that a person is a bad manager? Further, If it was just Moyes, then why didn't LVG get them back into the top two his first season? Should have been easy since it was all down to the manager, right?

You accused Moyes of wrecking a team (see point above). I pointed out that SAF didn't hand over the keys to a well-balanced or healthy team. Point in fact, how many games did RVP play for SAF in that season versus the games for Moyes? SAF lived on some luck and Moyes didn't get the same luck. How is this hard for you to understand?

What has SAF's prior titles have to do with the analysis? SAF's prior experience was not part of the argument or response, or did I miss it in one of your infamous links comparing Moyes to SAF? I guess when lacking a factual or persuasive response, it is easier to throw out the red herring I guess to distract people.

Interesting that SAF, as many times as he pats himself on the back for rebuilding Man Utd multiple times, didn't yet ever take credit for rebuilding them again in the seasons before Moyes took over. He didn't add top quality players to the squad like he had in past years, despite the numerous calls from supporters and critics to strengthen and freshen the team. It caught up with the squad.

Whether the job was too big or not for Moyes is open to dispute. Given the millions upon millions spent by his two predecessors, it would appear that much was amiss at Old Trafford. Maybe that is why SAF, unlike the storybook tales of a captain of a ship, jumped into the first lifeboat off of the HMS Man Utd, women and children be damned.

Eric Myles
100 Posted 19/02/2017 at 00:55:26
Jim (#99), you mean Moyes 2 successors.

Dennis (#97), Moyes offered to leave when he accepted the Man Utd job but Kenwright wanted him to stay on to the end of his contract.

John Daley
102 Posted 19/02/2017 at 03:33:30
Jim,

Let's put it this way: Do you know of a single a Man Utd supporter who would want him back, besides Phil Neville?

My 'point' was quite simply that trying to rub a bit of mud off Moyes time at Man Utd by saying his 'win ratio' was about on par with the next guy isn't a like-for-like comparison because the next guy was no longer taking over United as they were when old whiskey nose wandered away. They were taking over a (previously successful for the best part of two decades) side whose winning habit had been erased and replaced by a romper suit of rank mediocrity (and merciless piss taking by supporters of other clubs) over the course of Moyes's short stay. 

You say "SAF didn't hand over the keys to a well-balanced or healthy team". How the fuck do you work that out? He handed over the current Premier League Champions. A team who won the league by a comfortable margin. A squad that any manager in the league would've looked at and thought they would have a chance of at least challenging again with minimum tinkering. Then again, to give him credit where it's due, Moyes must have been the only professional coach outside the competive 'monkey picking it's mates arse' cage to believe adding Fellaini and forcing Rio Ferdinand to undergo 'A Clockwork Orange' style conditioning with his eyes clamped open in front of a compilation of Jag's best hoofs, would help their cause.

Better chuck in a couple of my "infamous links" for you Jim, before I forget:

Your version of Ferguson's United exit:

Link

My version:

Link

You repeat yet again the ridiculous claim that the difference between United under Ferguson and United under Moyes was due to the fact that "SAF lived on some luck and Moyes didn't get the same luck", and yet you still have to ask why I listed Ferguson's 38 trophies in the English game compared to Moyes coppery shart of a single Charity Shield?

Y'know, I always wondered who actually sent off for those 'fantastic' creations they used to try and flog kids in the back of comic books:

Link

"The USS Triton was a total jammy bastard when it successfully completed the first submerged circumnavigation of the globe. Jim Hardin's Polaris would have pissed it if not for his mam calling him in because his dinner was getting cold just as he was about to crack on with building it. Rank bad luck once again dictating how history is written."

Gary Russell
103 Posted 19/02/2017 at 03:56:08
Brian @ 15 'I can't see how anybody can take any pleasure in another person possibly losing their job.'

I'd normally agree with you to some extent, BUT the not so small fact that said person is worth 14 billion Somali Shillings, or put another away, 20 million quid, most of it made from his time at Everton, then I disagree.

Poor Davey...

Paul Ferry
104 Posted 19/02/2017 at 03:57:54
White flag, I think, Jim.
James Flynn
105 Posted 19/02/2017 at 04:32:01
I think this one gets us to 100!!

Halfway past his fourth year gone, on his third team since he left, old Davey can STILL push a TW thread to the century mark.

Mike Gaynes
106 Posted 19/02/2017 at 06:55:58
James, that is indeed worth a headshaking chuckle. The obsession shows no signs of ebbing, does it?
Darryl Ritchie
107 Posted 19/02/2017 at 07:40:56
I've kept an eye on Moyes's results since he got turfed out of Man Utd. He completely bombed in Spain and is well on the way to taking Sunderland down, as well.

As far as we are concerned, he's an entry in the encyclopedia. Ancient history. His leaving, or more accurately, manner of his leaving left a bad taste in my mouth, but I think his leaving was inevitable. He was bored of us and we were bored of him.

I was kind of pleased by his United failure, but that also, is now history. He, however, was Everton manager for a long time, and because of that, I wish him well in the future... wherever that happens to be... because it's probably not going to be Sunderland much longer.

Colin Glassar
108 Posted 19/02/2017 at 07:56:36
I have absolutely no sympathy for him whatsoever. He was a good fit for us (plucky little Everton) for over a decade, and vice versa.

He was under absolutely no pressure from luvvie luvvie, as top-half finishes were more than acceptable, and basically had a job for life. I don't blame him for taking the Man Utd job but he should've realised that going from a club which was in permanent survival mode to a behemoth like the Mancs was way above his abilities.

Time has since shown him to be a below-average manager at best. His dourness must be contagious as he's now bored to tears four sets of fans with his constant whining and bleak football. You are now like the emperor without his clothes, Davey boy. Maybe it's time to enjoy your millions and sod off back to Scotland.

Eric Myles
109 Posted 19/02/2017 at 07:59:05
"I've kept an eye on Moyes's results since he got turfed out of Man Utd"

Have you sought professional help for this obsessive compulsive disorder Darryl (#107)??

Darryl Ritchie
110 Posted 19/02/2017 at 08:14:40
Nah, it's a passing phase. I expect it'll clear up on its own, Eric.

Thanks for your concern, though.

Chris Williams
111 Posted 19/02/2017 at 09:25:07
Yesterday's papers.

He was impressive at first, steadied the ship, and for the second half of his spell started to believe in his own publicity, buoyed up by the fact he was the highest paid person at the club, and became stale and unchallenged for the second half of his time here. The football and the rhetoric reflected this.

Everton will prove the pinnacle of his career, at least the first 4/5 years.

Let's all move on.

Ian Bennett
112 Posted 19/02/2017 at 09:34:07
He did well enough in his 10 years, from a board with no money and zero ambition from the previous 20 years.

He could pick a player, and made us win the games that you'd expect from a set formula routinely delivering the best of the rest.

No silverware and crapped his pants at the big away games. He stuck on 17 and refused to twist. And at ١m a season with no pressure, we would all do the same.

A good manager, with some good players. But no legends.

Mike Green
113 Posted 19/02/2017 at 09:48:59
Ian - "no legends"

I think you're about right there. Had we won something, and had they been instrumental in that win I think there's a few that could stake a claim (Cahill, maybe Arteta and Baines...?). All three would probably get in a Hall of Fame though.

He did have a cast-iron legend in the making under his wing, but we sold him, didn't we.

Spot on with the blackjack analogy by the way, he probably would've been chuffed with being dealt 17 too!

Paul Birmingham
114 Posted 19/02/2017 at 10:09:39
Moyes was deluded and believed the media hype and got turned by SWN and Man Utds promised land. He done ok on a pittance and that can't be denied and got some good transfers and brought some respect back to a declining club.

He'll be best known now for his bull on how he was called up out the blue, by SWN, his departure and piss-poor manner in his views of Everton and players when he came back on the tap for Baines and Fellaini.

He's gone and he was set up at Manure to fail, and in comparison attained better results than LVG, at the time of his axing. The grass is not always greener and thankfully we have moved on and Moyes is history.

The win on Saturday is all that counts , there's more to Everton and life than the demise of Moyes. He will end up in the Championship or in Scotland.

Everton is on the ascent on and off the park and Evertonians know their history and what style and manner is. That counts.

Tony Abrahams
115 Posted 19/02/2017 at 10:21:54
I actually thought his last season in charge of Everton was one of his best. He probably had us fitter than every other team in the Premier League at the start, but having a small squad caught up with them after the New Year, when his team won their last away game of the season on January 2nd.

Dave Williams
116 Posted 19/02/2017 at 10:57:33
A classic case of a man ruining his reputation, first by showing in his last couple of seasons that he was more concerned with protecting his reputation than with the team, and then taking the Man Utd job which most people could see was a poisoned chalice and akin to when Wilfred McGuiness took over from Busby.

I think he did a very decent job for us and bought some excellent players. His apparent inability to get the best out of his strikers meant that he found it a step too far to take us to the very highest level.

I agree with the poster above who bracketed him with Gordon Lee – an "almost but not quite" and if he had only conducted himself properly in the build-up and aftermath to him leaving, he would have a much kinder response from a lot of us than he does. The comments about Baines and Pienaar were disgraceful and he should have apologised for that.

Eugene Ruane
117 Posted 19/02/2017 at 11:08:49
Dermot # 94 - 'It is easy to spout fierce aggression alone at your keyboard but at the ground, a similar reaction runs the risk of a dose of reality when some guy turns round and says "Shut the fuck up, ya prat!"

Prat!?

I have a good idea what the response in my part of the Upper Gwladys would be, to anyone shouting 'prat' - Link

Dave Williams
118 Posted 19/02/2017 at 12:04:47
Sorry, I meant Fellaini not Pienaar – daughter pestering me for a lift to work distracted me!
Andrew Clare
119 Posted 19/02/2017 at 13:19:57
Weak Chairman plus mediocre manager equates to mid-table wilderness. Not my cup of tea.

This is a great club was badly let down by the owners for 20 years. A man without the means or the wherewithal bought the club and it was downhill from there.

If Moyes had been the manager of a similar club, he would have been long gone and forgotten by now.

Tony Abrahams
120 Posted 19/02/2017 at 14:19:08
Have to agree Andrew, and think about the club we became under this partnership. Remember speaking to a red and he was saying Moyes was a good manager. I asked him would he have him at Liverpool and he just laughed and shook his head.

Good manager alright, but only for a pauper who got rid of the holes in his shoes years ago!

Dermot Byrne
121 Posted 19/02/2017 at 15:11:08
Eugene: Thank the non orthodox Jewish lord mate
Dermot Byrne
122 Posted 19/02/2017 at 15:18:27
God I'm bored. Now reading Lincoln report. Bored shitless. Liz watching Steisland musical.

I am 56 so cannot cycle to that little shop miles away that still sold sweets on the old closed Sunday. I could go cycling but would have to put on a helmet that I never needed aged 10 and put on Lycra that is the absolute epitome of no self awareness for men and women my age. I may go to Hoylake and stop the tide.

Colin Glassar
123 Posted 19/02/2017 at 17:58:02
Life is so boring without football isn't it?
Brent Stephens
124 Posted 19/02/2017 at 18:55:02
Say that again, Colin. I look at TW daily but little of real interest at the moment (except Trump interviews!).
Stan Schofield
125 Posted 19/02/2017 at 19:54:20
John@102: I would have sent off for a pair of X-Ray specs, but didn't know my Zip code in Liverpool.
Rob Halligan
126 Posted 19/02/2017 at 20:22:00
Deulofeu just scored a brilliant goal for AC Milan.
John Daley
127 Posted 19/02/2017 at 20:48:36
Brave of you to admit so, Stan.

Pretty sure though that,  if you had gone through with your order, they would have just shoved 'L' followed by '41  MUG' or something similar down as the 'zip code'.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone will ever own up to eyeing "the ideal burgular [sic] deterrent" ?

Link

"Can't believe it, lad. I was gonna break into that Big Dunc's gaffe...third time's the charm and all that...but the canny bastard's only gone and gorrimself a fucking Judy doll!! Big brunette bitch she was an all. Shit me self and scarpered. I'll have to go back when he takes her 'boating' or something (she floats!)".

Eugene Ruane
128 Posted 19/02/2017 at 22:13:58
John # 127 - In the copy it instructs 'just add air'

Doesn't sound like a big deal, in fact it's a detail one could easily miss, but that imo would be a big mistake.

Because whether it's balloons, footballs, women, lilos or Mini Moke tires - just adding air always seems to spell fun.

Don Alexander
129 Posted 19/02/2017 at 23:54:06
Moyes had his wings clipped massively by the financial situation engineered under Kenwright, whatever it was. Whatever it was on paper and tax exempt bank accounts on the pitch it would have seriously hampered Jesus H Christ had he been given the manager's job. With that in mind Moyes generally did a good job but behaved like a bit of a dick when he left us. Kenwright should have been sacked for abiding by the terms of his transfer to Man Utd.

The sad fact is though that whilst other clubs have had managers under which they consistently won trophies for season after season after season, we haven't. Catterick only did okay when we were mega rich courtesy of Sir John Moores (two league titles and an FA Cup in 12 years).

Kendall Mk 1 did better (two titles, a cup and a Cup Winners Cup in six years) until the European ban stymied any potential progression into the sort of decades-long period of success that several other big clubs have enjoyed since the '70s, and since then it's been piss-poor to be honest when measured against successful clubs.

So I just hope Koeman gets proper financial backing to show his worth and elevate us to regular top of the table success, year in year out, for the first time in my 61 years.

Am I being naïve?

Mike Dolan
130 Posted 20/02/2017 at 07:16:26
I will be 70 next week. All my life, Everton has been the last thing I think of at night and the second thing I think of when I wake up in the morning. I love this club, it's the parchment on which I remember the rest of my life's experiences. My Everton who were so cultured they would outclass teams that featured Best, Charlton and Law. So hard they would go throat to throat with Bremner, Hunter and assorted thugs.

At the very moment we managed to be the best in Europe, our rich bastard twin managed to screw us over. The team fell apart and It really seemed like we could never compete again for the best players with even small teams like Man City and Chelsea. And the soul-draining misery of being just a foil for the really big clubs began.

You know what – after years and years of misery. Everton have turned a massive corner. We are not the richest club on the planet but we can now force City to pay an extortionate amount of money for a player who will never be a center half as long as he has a hole in his arse. Now we are Everton – a powerful club again. I swear that this club will be classic Everton again if we can hang on to Koeman. Euro title in 3 years – that's how good this guy is.

Colin Glassar
131 Posted 20/02/2017 at 07:46:00
Brilliant post Mike. I agree with all of it except for your dig at John Stones (he will be a great CB) and the possible loss of Koeman. He has us on the right track but he isn't 100% indispensable.
Stan Schofield
132 Posted 20/02/2017 at 10:19:45
Don, no, imo you're not being naive. Koeman came here because of the financial backing, his salary reflecting it. It's a big opportunity for him, and as Ryasantzev said, it's more than a 'project'.

Mike, a sign that we're on the rise is no longer needing to sell our best players. I think Stones went for reasons other than us needing to sell him. Regarding Koeman being here, I agree with Colin, when he leaves he'll have done a job for us, and the rise will continue.

Ray Roche
133 Posted 20/02/2017 at 10:43:57
Eugene (#18),

"Just adding air"... so, you're women are the "blow up" kind? Just wondering

Tony Abrahams
134 Posted 20/02/2017 at 10:52:42
I think you might get deflated for saying that, Ray!
Dave Wilson
135 Posted 20/02/2017 at 11:13:36
Kendall and Moyes had totally different jobs to do. Kendall did a wonderful job – more than fantastic – but he was operating on pretty much a level playing field.

Moyes in contrast came into the job when the rich clubs had long since moved to a completely different level. World class players were sitting on the bench at Arsenal, Liverpool. Man Utd and Chelsea. Not many managers were operating on a smaller war chest.

That he burned his bridges after he left doesn't alter the fact that he did an exceptional job when he was here.

Andy Crooks, good to see you are still posting.

Brent Stephens
136 Posted 20/02/2017 at 11:23:23
Mike (#130) – "the second thing I think of when I wake up in the morning".

And the first thing? Not sure what that problem is but I'm sure you've got it in hand.

Eugene Ruane
137 Posted 20/02/2017 at 12:35:20
Ray # 133 - 'so, you're women are the "blow up" kind? Just wondering'

Sorry but that's confusing - did you mean 'your'?

Tip. Knowing these Link will not make you look a genius, but not knowing them can make you look a bit of a div.

As for blow-up women, I did try them on two separate occasions.

The first one received a love-bite and went flying out of the window, so the whole thing was over before it started.

The second one actually had a male member so I took it back to where I'd purchased it and angrily berated the manager.

He calmly pointed out that the doll was inflated while inside out, called me nob-head and had me thrown out.

Ray Roche
138 Posted 20/02/2017 at 14:35:06
Tony, it was a pound to a pinch of crap that I'd make a (rare) mistake over "you're and your", something that pisses me off when others do it, and have old big 'ed cream his kecks at the opportunity to make me look a right dick, which I am of course, for mixing up "your and you're".

So, Eugene, up "you'res or yours", take your pick! ;-)


Brent (#136).

The first thing I think of in the morning is "Thank God I'm still here" . Then I go for a slash.

Tony Abrahams
139 Posted 20/02/2017 at 15:05:31
You sound like Hyman Roth, now Ray!
Brent Stephens
140 Posted 20/02/2017 at 16:00:38
Ray (#138) – the first thing I think is "oops, I think I've had a slash; well, at least I'm still here".
John Daley
141 Posted 20/02/2017 at 16:18:08
"You sound like Hyman Roth, now Ray"

Who, fittingly enough, sounds like a less than deluxe sex doll himself.

"Your father did 'business' with Hymen Rough, your father respected Hymen Rough, but he never busted Hymen Rough. That was all Don Ruane's doing."

Tony Abrahams
142 Posted 20/02/2017 at 16:23:55
It had a penis John!
John Daley
143 Posted 20/02/2017 at 16:34:39
Eugene did say he dabbled twice, Tony.

If the one that went out the window also had a cock then surely he could have caught it and sailed safely down to the street in front of a gang of awestruck kids who would then proceed to say something like, "Cor Mister, where did you buy that funny kite?"

James Hughes
144 Posted 20/02/2017 at 16:50:44
'Kin hell, how long until the next game?
Eugene Ruane
145 Posted 20/02/2017 at 17:08:20
Ray # 138 - '..and have old big 'ed cream his kecks at the opportunity to make me look a right dick'

Two things.

1) Referring to someone as 'old big 'ed', simply for pointing out a mistake (that shouldn't be made by anyone over the age of 11) is surely pushing things. Irritating twat or annoying prick or infuriating gobshite would have been much more apposite.

2) My kecks being 'creamed' at your misfortune wasn't an option. Once I'd seen John's link showing the big Judy doll, it was goodnight Vienna, and these days, at my age, one kecks creaming a day is my limit.

John Daley
146 Posted 20/02/2017 at 17:16:19
"'Kin hell, how long until the next game?"

Asks James, after noticing 'Judy' (basic model by the way, not deluxe) takes exactly five days to be delivered and someone has to be in to sign for it. Typical!

Ray Roche
147 Posted 20/02/2017 at 17:17:46
Tony (#139)...

Maybe I'll wake with a dead Border Collie's head in my bed.

Brent (#140)...

Yes, waking up and checking the bed... bit of a lottery these days. A far cry from waking up and wondering how I got here and, more worrying, how did the Madeline Smith I went to bed with turn into a moose overnight.
I blame the Grafton.

Eugene (#145)...

"one kecks creaming a day is my limit."

Show off.

Dave Abrahams
148 Posted 20/02/2017 at 17:30:54
Tony (#142) – get off this thread NOW, do you hear me? NOW!!!!!
James Hughes
149 Posted 20/02/2017 at 18:00:24
John D, that is quality sir. Will amazon prime deliver any quicker? Leaving it with a neighbour might be embarrassing...;p
Brent Stephens
150 Posted 20/02/2017 at 18:26:38
"one kecks creaming a day is my limit".

Apostrophe missing??

Ray Roche
151 Posted 20/02/2017 at 18:27:38
BRENT, BRENT, leave it son, he's not worth it it'll only end in tears.
Brent Stephens
152 Posted 20/02/2017 at 18:28:25
Eugene doesn't cry, Ray.
Ray Roche
153 Posted 20/02/2017 at 18:42:03
I was thinking of you, son.
Phil Bellis
154 Posted 20/02/2017 at 19:07:03
Eugene... I packed in the Blow Up Doll of the Month Club (introductory offer: Maddie Smith – enough said) when Miss April started singing Don't Let Me Down.
Phil Bellis
155 Posted 20/02/2017 at 19:25:51
Ray.. Just read the later post Eugene posts: cap doffed. sir
The fragrant Miss Smith: if she'd have played her cards right...
Brent Stephens
156 Posted 20/02/2017 at 19:37:16
Thanks, Dad.
Brent Stephens
157 Posted 20/02/2017 at 19:38:24
"when Miss April started singing Don't Let Me Down"!!!

Superb.

Mike Gaynes
158 Posted 20/02/2017 at 19:45:20
Hey KT, bet you never expected this thread to wind up where it has, eh?
Brent Stephens
159 Posted 20/02/2017 at 20:11:49
Yeh, what was the question again, Kevin?
Eugene Ruane
161 Posted 20/02/2017 at 20:26:29
Brent # 150 - '"one kecks creaming a day is my limit". Apostrophe missing??'

No, but I see how you might have arrived at that.

I think kecks having an s on the end has fooled you there, but always remember to tell yourself (as I do often) 'there's no such word as keck.'

There wouldn't be an apostrophe on 'leg breaking' or 'tea stirring' and kecks creaming works the same way.

The word 'kecks' is rather like the the word sheep, in that it refers to all kecks and just one pair (eg: 'look at all them kecks' or 'where's me kecks?')

And worth keeping in mind, though kecks refers to a 'pair of kecks', a pair in this case is (like the word scissors) singular – a 'pair' of kecks being trousers for one person.

Or to put it another way, two pairs of kecks is not four kecks, just... two.

Hopefully that's cleared that up and this can be applied in the future when the word kecks' ... when the word kecks's . . when the word kecks IS ... being discussed.

Tony Abrahams
162 Posted 20/02/2017 at 20:36:32
Funny kite, John (#143)? He had just tried to give a blow-up doll, a fuckin love-bite!
John Daley
163 Posted 20/02/2017 at 20:45:06
Good point Mike (@158) and, whilst this thread going off the rails was clearly the fault of the two Abrahams (the 'keks' of surname's) boys being too tight to send text messages back and forth, I'm prepared to accept my (minuscule) share of the blame.  

So, to make amends, I'll try to get us back on track. 

David Moyes, eh? Well, one thing you can't knock him for....he was always happy to have his picture taken with an admirer:

Link

Tony Abrahams
164 Posted 20/02/2017 at 20:54:15
Yer out of order there, John; Dave doesn't even have a mobile phone!

Eugene, check the light-bulbs mate, I thought you was only messin' before!

Brent Stephens
165 Posted 20/02/2017 at 21:08:29
Eugene, how about a hyphen, then?!

Ray Roche
166 Posted 20/02/2017 at 21:22:24
Phil (#155),

Aye, just the thought of her brings a stirring in the underpant zone.

John (#163). I blame the FA and Koeman. If we'd stayed in the Cup... we wouldn't be having this thread. Koeman out!

Eugene Ruane
167 Posted 20/02/2017 at 21:38:35
Brent # 165 - 'Eugene, how about a hyphen, then?!'

Sure, how about Hyphen Roth?

Gerry Morrison
168 Posted 20/02/2017 at 21:51:15
Not sure what an apostrophe has to do with being singular or plural.
Brent Stephens
169 Posted 20/02/2017 at 21:54:36
God, 5 days to go.
Dan Davies
170 Posted 20/02/2017 at 22:31:11
Fascinating thread this...!?
Brent Stephens
171 Posted 20/02/2017 at 22:42:42
Dash it, Eugene, you always have an answer.
Eugene Ruane
172 Posted 20/02/2017 at 23:21:15
Gerry # 168, right - plural or singular has no bearing on anything at all, it was simply a complete bollocks leap from 'no apostrophe needed' to allow me a bit of kecks word jazz for no reason other than it amused me. Just seeing a word that finished with the letter s was enough, enough to point out potential pitfalls. I mean Moyes' miserable grid or Moyes's miserable grid? I'm twistin' me own melon blud! I'll be fine when we actually start playing again.

Tony Abrahams
173 Posted 21/02/2017 at 08:10:36
Just thinking back to when Sunderland beat Liverpool with a goal scored from a beach-ball because I need an excuse for the neighbours! Just imagine Moyesie's doll scoring an oggy on Saturday, and it got him the sack?

Imagine the Stadium of Light full of the Moyes doll because it turned out to be the goal that kept them up?

No sympathy from me, David, because after the way you looked down on Everton 10 minutes after you left, I for one would love history to repeat itself this weekend, and would find it both funny and ironic, if the Grim Reaper returned to "Glorious Goodison" this Saturday afternoon.

Brent Stephens
174 Posted 21/02/2017 at 08:39:22
"Moyes' miserable grid or Moyes's miserable grid?"

Haha! The grid is still miserable, regardless of the apostrophe!

David Donnellan
175 Posted 21/02/2017 at 11:48:00
Tony (#173) – "Just imagine Moyesie's doll "

It would probably be an improvement on their defence, more mobile anyway.

Gerry Morrison
176 Posted 21/02/2017 at 18:20:59
Eugene (#172). Fair enough. I enjoyed the word jazz anyway.
Peter Howard
177 Posted 21/02/2017 at 19:50:57
Eugene,

How ironic to mention 'kecks's' in a thread about Gollum.

Steve Brown
179 Posted 25/02/2017 at 04:38:51
Eugene very funny on this thread. Presbyterians being the "labrador of religions"!

But my personal favourite:

"Seriously, if you think Moyes's efforts were 'more than fantastic', your expectations must have been lower than a pot-holing python's ball-bag."

Blackadder would have been proud of that one.

Ste Traverse
181 Posted 27/02/2017 at 12:58:21
Anyone elses see Moyes laughable comment that Defoe's effort which hit the underside of the crossbar would have been given but for goal line technology?

The guy has seriously lost it. Talk about clutching at straws, he's deluded.

Brent Stephens
182 Posted 27/02/2017 at 13:12:55
Ste, I didn't see that Moyes comment, and I'm not one for having a go at the wee Scot. But if he said that, then he's lost the plot. To argue they'd have won an illegitimate goal but for goal-line technology! Staggering.

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