Blues draw with Betis but lose on penalties

30 July  148 Comments  [Jump to last]
Real Betis 1 - 1 Everton [4-3 on pens]

Romelu Lukaku starts despite rumours that he could still be on the move
Matthias Kern/Bongarts/Getty Images

Everton played their second game in the Dresden Cup tournament at lunchtime on Saturday, but could only draw, losing the penalty shoot-out 4-3.

Romelu Lukaku, Arouna Kone and a slew of other players rested from the first game against Dinamo Dresden yesterday were selected to start by Ronald Koeman. Only Besic and Holgate appeared yesterday as second-half substitutes, while the subs bench includes the rest of the squad that travelled to Germany but have mostly had limited involvement so far.

Everton reverted to the new very dark blue kit, which was rather close to the dark green worn by their opponents Real Bitis, from Seville, who kicked off in bright sunshine before a sparse crowd, apart from the Everton contingent.

Barry swung in a great cross to pick out Lukaku at the far post but there was no-one coming in to benefit from the big man's layoff. Some great passing out of the back saw Holgate playing in a nice cross that went for a corner and the Betis keeper Adán fluffed Cleverley's smart in-swinger, but Lukaku could not convert the loose ball.

The pace of the game was quite lively, with Betis giving the very young Blues defence a fair test as they surged forward with pace down the flanks. But Kone won a second corner off a long ball and Cleverley's corner was again completely missed by Adán and hit defender Mandi, bouncing off him and across the goal line before Lukaku could react, giving Everton the early lead.

Oviedo decided to test the rather shaky keeper with a good strong shot from distance but it was bundled away. Barry was lively as Captain, always looking to play the forward ball, but the tempo of the game was a little too slow, Besic winning another corner for Cleverley to swing in. Pennington headed this one out in the direction of Besic whose deflected shot was weak.

Galloway got himself sandbagged and put Robles under some pressure, which lead to a free-kick that was driven in a little too easily, Robles pushing the clipped header onto the post and Pezzela was there to tap in the rebound along the line. Cue a drinks break.

The game resumed with Oviedo trying to swing in telling crosses from the left side, trying to make something for Lukaku but the marking was tight and Betis turned things over, with a move that ended with a neat flick that hit the side netting.

Besic tried a fierce shot from distance that was well off-target, then Cleverly won the ball and made a run forward that ended rather unconvincingly with neither Kone nor Lukaku showing for him. A good ball in from Holgate was put behind for another corner, Cleverley curling it in but no-one there to head it home, and it went behind on the other side, from where Cleverley delivered a less effective outswinger.

A silly coming together off the ball saw Lukaku and his fouling marker both booked, but Lukaku given the free-kick, and continued to question the ref! But it came to nothing and Pennington had to head away a couple of crosses as Betis mounted an attack. Lukaku was getting closely marked and got taken out by three Betis players but no acknowledgemnt from the referee.

Cejudo fired in a shot that Robles turned behind, and he then caught the corner with confidence. Everton won a free-kick but it was driven in too low to end the half of a rather scrappy game with some of the Betis play becoming a little bit niggly toward the break.

The sides resumed unchanged after the break but the pace was pedestrian with no real action in the first 10 minutes, with some rather poor football on display.

Holgate was forced to give up a free-kick on the side of the Everton area, but Joaquín whacked the ball high and wide with everyone massed anticipating a meaty cross. Everton moved the ball forward finally to the Betis area only for Cleverley to flick the ball directly to a defender. At that point, Ronald Koeman made three changes to freshen things up with a trio of youngsters.

The forward play improved somewhat, but Davies frustratingly stepped over a nice rolled pass that was perfect for picking up or striking. Betis responded with a forward surge of their own that won a corner, headed away by Davies.

Finally, a better move down the left saw good play from Davies and Grant surging ahead to curl in a supper ball that Kone could not convert. Cue another cooling break for drinks.

Grant fired in a low shot that was parried away from a corner. The delivery this time was poor but Grant controlled the ball well and followed in only to hit the side netting. Matthew Pennington went down in the middle of the field with what looked like a torn hamstring, with John Stones replacing him for the last 12 minutes.

The football became even more mundane as they played out the last few minutes of the game before the penalty shoot-out, with Everton taking the first:

Grant: Saved — 0-0
Ceballos: Missed — 0-0
Dowell: Saved — 0-0
Cejudo: Scored — 1-0
Stones: Scored — 1-1
Sanabria: Scored — 2-1
Besic: Scored — 2-2
Jonas: Scored — 3-2
Holgate: Scored — 3-3
Musonda: Scored — 4-3

Real Betis win on Penalties. Everton finish on 2 points.

Real Betis: Adán, Piccini (66' Ceballos), Pezzella, Mandi, Durmisi, Petros [Y:38'], Jonas, Felipe Gutierrez (66' Sanabria), Cejudo, Joaquin (81' Musonda), Rubén Castro (81' Alegria).

Everton: Robles; Oviedo, Galloway, Holgate, Pennington (79' Stones); McCarthy (60' Grant), Barry (c) (60' Davies); Besic, Cleverley; Kone (74' Lennon), Lukaku [Y:38'] (60' Dowell).
Subs: Hewelt, Mirallas.


As well as three points for a win, there will be a point awarded for every goal scored in the Dresden Cup, win or lose. All games level after 90 minutes will go immediately to penalties, with three points awarded to the winners of the shootout (goals scored in penalty shootouts will not count towards the final tally).

At the end of the tournament, the team with the most points will be named the winners of the Dresden Cup. If two teams finish level on points, goal difference and then, if necessary, goals scored will be used to determine the champions.

Quotes sourced from


Reader Comments (148)

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Gareth Clark
1 Posted 30/07/2016 at 07:06:59
Completely disagree with that predicted line up... What formation is that even?

Hewelt
Holgate Stones Galloway Oviedo
McCarthy Grant
Cleverley (c)
Kone Lukaku Dowell

Bench: Steklenburg, Robles, Funes Mori, Coleman, Baines, Barry, Besic, Davies, Gibson, Barkley, Lennon, Mirallas, Deulofeu.

Bring Davies on for Stones at halftime - move Holgate to RCB & Davies to RB.

(4-3-3) is a lot more likely - especially due to the big knock Funes Mori took when he landed on his hip. & I'd like to see what Hewelt has to offer.

Plus, I don't think Barry is a part of Koeman's plans, too slow for his system.

Tony Abrahams
2 Posted 30/07/2016 at 07:43:38
Don't get injured Rom, score two, and get your wish of going back to Chelsea.

It's plain to see we are in transition, so isn't it best to get a squad of players, who want to play for Everton FC?

Dave Abrahams
3 Posted 30/07/2016 at 09:26:41
They need plenty of goals to get to the final, doubt they will get them with that team Michael.
Max Middleton
4 Posted 30/07/2016 at 09:45:00
Gareth, you seriously think Cleverley is captain material?

What's the point playing McCarthy when he's absolutely not interested in 'playing football'!! Imo he's an impostor, a mercenary.

Alan Bodell
5 Posted 30/07/2016 at 09:47:07
Tony, the team spirit/dressing room has been our strength for many seasons now, they all talk about it and I think if the Belgian lump fucks off that'll give us an injection to go again.
David Milner
6 Posted 30/07/2016 at 09:53:51
Don't see Stones playing twice in 2 days as he had extended holiday after the euros.
Also after that bad fall yesterday Funes Mori will be very stiff & sore & probably will not be risked.
No one has mentioned Pennington & I don't think he is injured. Expect to see the lineup as:-

Robles
Holgate Pennington Galloway Oviedo
McCarthy Cleverley Barry
Kone Lukaku Grant

Leaving Hewelt, Besic, Dowell & Davies to come on as subs

Amit Vithlani
7 Posted 30/07/2016 at 10:10:14
Yesterday's team was arguably our best team, Lukaku and Barry excepted. Dresden arguably weaker than Betis. Thus my expectations for a good result today are therefore low.

I will tune in predominantly to see how our back up will do. I am hoping for some good performances as competition is really necessary.

Gareth Clark
8 Posted 30/07/2016 at 10:14:55
David #6 - I don't think Pennington is in Germany.

Well, he wasn't on the bench last night, at least.

Liam Reilly
9 Posted 30/07/2016 at 10:52:28
Dunno why Liam Walsh isn't closer to the first team; he did well on loan last season and anyone see the 'treble' he scored during pre season on the homepage of the OS?

The first strike is incredible; two footed.

David Milner
10 Posted 30/07/2016 at 10:57:13
Gareth @8

Pennington is listed as in the travelling party. If he was going to be used for the full 90 minutes today I would not expect him to be named on the bench. Maybe only 12 players can be named on the bench?

David Milner
12 Posted 30/07/2016 at 12:26:02
Lineup confirmed:-

Robles
Holgate Pennington Galloway Oviedo
Besic McCarthy Barry
Cleverley Lukaku Kone

Subs:- Dowell Grant Hewelt Davies Lennon Stones Mirallas

Ciarán McGlone
13 Posted 30/07/2016 at 12:42:27
Gareth Barry is done. Coaching role only.
Alan Bodell
14 Posted 30/07/2016 at 12:46:34
Wtf with the colour clash ?, Einstein strikes again.
Phil Jeffries
15 Posted 30/07/2016 at 12:51:20
4 games in a week and this will give Koeman even more idea what he needs in the transfer market. COYB!
Gary Reeves
16 Posted 30/07/2016 at 12:52:42
Ciaran, I don't think I've ever disagreed with a ToffeeWeb post as much as that one. I'm watching too (very much a pre-season friendly) but you can see from a mile away Barry's experience and awareness. I honestly think we'd have been/would be in trouble without him.
Stephen Coles
17 Posted 30/07/2016 at 13:11:19
What the fuck am I watching?!!!
Colin Williams
18 Posted 30/07/2016 at 13:31:22
Please give Lukaku away for free... He is fecking shocking! We are just better off without him anywhere near our club.

Someone needs to grow a pair and tell that useless fecker to close the door after him!! I'll take Geri any day up front. Anyone but that clown.

Never seen such a lazy big minded twat play the game.

Ciarán McGlone
19 Posted 30/07/2016 at 13:49:53
This is worrying. We look awful with 2 games to the season opener.

I wouldn't pay £5 mill for Lukaku on this showing.

Dazz Storm
20 Posted 30/07/2016 at 13:51:35
Alan you're right mate, ridiculous that Betis are allowed to play in their away/ 3rd strip. I hope we've got a white or lighter 3rd kit lined up. Watching on a stream is hard to keep up let alone the Spanish commentary.
Mike Allen
21 Posted 30/07/2016 at 13:54:26
51 minutes... fucking dross. What the fuck has changed? Senseless lazy backpasses, endless square or bac passes when in good positions, two lazy strikers...

It'll take some sorting out, this fucking lot. If we can get money for any of them, fucking do it!!!

Michael Lynch
22 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:25:56
Only bright spot for me was Conor Grant. Maybe it was just in contrast to how shit the rest were, but he looks the real deal, ready for the first team squad.
Jamie Crowley
23 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:39:13
Grant looked very good.

Kone has to move on. The mere sight of him pisses me off.

And Rom was out for his customary jog... and if he doesn't put in the effort in the first 4-5 games this season I'm turning on him like a rabid dog!

Alan Bodell
24 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:40:19
Well, that was well worth 2 hours of my time... but at least I saw Rom make two runs and almost won a header. Over to you, Koeman.
Phil Walling
25 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:51:20
If he wasn't too busy fishing, Martinez would have been salivating at how well his former charges had established themselves as 'a passing team'.

Trouble is it's all passing sideways, backwards and to the opposition. The younger players are particularly good at it.

Koeman has certainly got some 'sanitising' to do!

Ged Simpson
26 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:54:01
I liked Grant. That was about all.
Patrick Murphy
27 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:56:07
Only three players come away from Germany with much credit: Del Boy, Davies and the new keeper – the rest of them may as well have stayed in the Finch Farm gym. It's still early days but we have too many average players in critical areas – where's the dosh, Mosh?
Mike Allen
28 Posted 30/07/2016 at 14:57:29
Looking at the two games, I got the impression Koeman is just giving players a run out because they are there and he's got no-one else till they are replaced. I hope so because last night and today was pretty poor. Apart from the young potential, nothing there... could be a wholesale clear-out with any luck.
Jay Harris
29 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:05:51
Very disappointing last 2 games. Spirit in the camp and fitness look suspect. Could it be Lukaku and Stones going is causing unrest or maybe the fitness regime is catching up with them but after Barnsley and MK Dons the wheels have come off.

Stand outs Holgate, Conor Grant, Gerri and Stekelenburg.

Doesnt say much for the rest but it does highlight our need for a top class goalscorer.

Sam Hoare
30 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:06:42
I dunno Patrick, I think you could arguably add Grant, Holgate and possibly Galloway to that list. All 3 have done their cases no harm...
Ciarán McGlone
31 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:15:20
Our youngsters are average in terms of what's needed to crack the top 4 in the prem... All of them.
Paul Conway
32 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:17:17
Looks like we will have to slog it out with Bournemouth, West Brom, Sunderland (our peers), Watford, etc for that coveted 11th spot!
Steven Jones
34 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:19:20
Rom has just done a first week's pre-season – looked leggy... no surprise, quite natural...

Besic also had more minutes than anyone and looked getting back to his promising best ... still I feel will be babying his hamstring

Holgate looks the real deal...

Del Boy is going to have a great season ...

The way its going Rom and Stones will still be here and two or three acquisitions ...

Ian Guignet
35 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:19:38
Koeman needs a brand new team. Sell 'em all.
Anthony Hughes
36 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:21:44
We need top quality signings soon. The squad wasn't good enought last season and it's not good enough now. Hoping that young players will come in and do the job is a risky strategy.
Tony Draper
37 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:21:50
Don't think that I've learned anything, certainly nothing that I particularly like, from the last two games.

Overall we seem half arsed, sloppy and tactically empty. Nobody seems keen to grab the reins and assert some bloody command.

Sincerely hope that RK and his cohorts have a "full picture" by now, upon which to build with confidence.

Ciaran OBrien
38 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:23:53
Hey, I haven't commented on the site in a couple of years but it seems like nothing has changed.

Koeman should already have had a basic idea of the quality of the squad and what was needed since he had coached Southampton for two years. The league starts in a couple of weeks and not one major signing has been made, even though he had supposedly £100 million or so to spend. That's why he took the job wasn't it.

I actually think the money was never there and that figure is solely gonna come from Stone's and Lukaku's sales which is farcical. The fact we brought in Steve Walsh from Leicester who is known for bringing in bargains from mediocre teams around England and Europe proves this.

There is still too much deadwood in the squad on good wages who haven't contributed anything of note since they joined such as McGeady, Niasse, Kone, Gibson, Cleverley, Besic and Oviedo.

It wouldn't surprise me if Koeman resigns by the end of the window with the way tho things are turning out so far and we end with Steve Bruce or 'Arry taking over.

Losing again to crap sides in pre-season like Betis and Dresden. We finished a few years ago partly because we had a good pre season against class with Juventus, Real Madrid and Valencia.

This is same old same old and I'm sick of it, even Bournemouth have spent more and Puel at Southampton has brought in players even though they lost Mane and Wanyama to the Kopites and The Spuds respectively. It's a bloody joke.

Darren Dennett
39 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:28:34
I said at the end of last season this squad needs a complete overhaul for us to compete in the EPL. I've watched all pre-season games and I'm convinced now more than ever we are in exactly the same position, if not worse than than how we finished the 15-16 season. Stonesey and Rom's heads are not with us, this needs to be dealt with ASAP. The negativity those two throw out to the rest of the squad is infectious. Both of them do NOT want to play for Everton FC.

How on earth can we move forward as a club with ambition and optimism when we are holding out for the absolute maximum fees, these two players have stated they Do Not want to be part of the new regime and wish to leave. Rom is not worth £75m, so what's the point in keeping him at Everton to receive some half-arsed effort next season. Take the proposed £57million and buy desire and hunger, it's worth 100 times more than the negativity this bastard is spreading around the dressing room.

Stones exactly the same. Get rid, move on. I'm convinced with a few good quality, hard working signings we will make the European places.
Phil Smith
40 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:39:18
First of all, Rom is way behind the other lads in pre-season, so it is expected he is a little sluggish (more so than normal).

Second, what were we thinking sending up the kids first to take the pens? Should have had some more experience in there. Surely Oviedo can take a spot kick? And what about Cleverley?

Lastly, I don't want to rush into panic buying. I want to bring the right type of player in. Still some time to go, so let's chill a bit, peoples.

Paul Tran
41 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:44:41
At this stage, it might be worth remembering that we have been told for two years that this is 'our best squad in years' and has been 'ruined by Martinez'. Might be with giving Koeman more than a couple of weeks before passing judgement.

Regarding transfers, Martinez said two summers ago that we needed seven players. He didn't realise/mention that we needed to ship as many out of the club. Martinez failed to do this. Part of the reason Koeman was bought in was because he's replaced departing players with better, cheaper ones. Thats what we need as a club.

I'm saving my angst till September, when we'll have started the season and finished the transfer window.

Kevin Rowlands
42 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:50:36
Probably going to get slated for this but I believe selling Lukaku should be a priority. It's no coincidence that today was the worst we've looked all pre season and it was his first start.

I'm not buying the bollocks that he was rusty etc, he was useless the last third of last season and stank the Euros out. Geri looks so much more of a threat up front, cash in on Lukaku and invest the money wisely on two decent forwards to supplement Geri and we will be a far more dangerous team going forward.

For those who are going to say what about his goals, I will remind you that he hasn't scored for Everton in 13 straight games now. Cash in, get rid.

Paul Evans
43 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:51:08
Any post match comments from Koeman suggesting signings are close?
Jamie Crowley
44 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:57:49
Kevin -

Don't think you'll get too slated for that comment.

I starting to think myself we should just sell Lukaku and Stones and bring in some new blood and with it some enthusiasm and effort.

It just seems so stale. And those two particularly I just get the vibe they're going through the motions.

We need to inject some life and excitement into the squad.

I'm usually wrong so we'll probably hold onto both, Lu will lead the league in goals, and Stones will be a rock at the back...

Winston Williamson
45 Posted 30/07/2016 at 15:58:14
Kevin. 42.
I think his ego is probably having an adverse effect on the team.

Two solutions:

1. Sell him
2. Buy players clearly better than him so his ego is battered

TBH I've had enough of his demeanour on the pitch. He scores goals (usually) but at what cost to team togetherness and morale?

Jamie Crowley
46 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:06:05
Exactly Winston.

How demoralizing is it to see this:

Walk from point A to point B. Make a half-assed run, starting a bit too tardy on the run by the way, then turn and stretch out your arms asking why the ball wasn't delivered. Walk, sulking like, a bit more. Have a long ball put up in the air - jump to make it look like you're trying but let it sail over your head and watch the ball go the other way. Another long ball up and it comes off you 10 yards. Repeat ad nauseam.

Then every other game for 10 seconds fight like mad for a ball, destroy everyone in your path, and slot it home for a goal.

Maddening!

Does it help lift the players around you?

I dunno

Michael Lynch
47 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:11:51
I'm in agreement with the Sell Lukaku crew on here. He may have scored a hatful of goals for us in the past, but the past is a foreign country as they say. Belgium in his case. And we're not Belgium. And I've kind of lost my thread now. But, errr, get rid.
Paul Black
48 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:13:57
If Conte's still interested maybe do a straight swap for Diego?
Tahir Abdullah
49 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:24:55
The damage done to the club by Martinez's mismanagement will take a long while to sort; may have to wait as long as next season to see significant impact from the Koeman regime...
Les Martin
50 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:25:38
There is no doubt the Manager has a real job on his hands turning this team around, assessing what he has, and then getting better replacements.
I am actually pleased about the two results in these fixtures, as if Ronald did not know before he knows now that a change has got to come.
As I have mentioned before, we should not expect a first season miracle, as it will take time to turn things around with personnel, fitness regime, playing style and new tactics etc.
Jay Harris
51 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:28:12
Players wanting to leave who obviously don't want to play for the shirt cause unrest in the dressing room with sulks and rants.

We need a positive optimistic vibe right now so I would ship the 2 of them out immediately. Sod the money whether its 40m for Stnes and 57m for Lukaku why hang on for 10m more when there are players we can get who want to play for the club.

The same pair were responsible for losing us a fair number of games last season and this season will be even worse if they are forced to stay.

Dave Abrahams
52 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:32:54
Jay (51) agree completely, with the proviso that Stones and Lukaku both ask for a transfer to save Everton money and it is absolutely right that they should ask to go as it is them who want to leave the club and will both benefit financially from the moves.
Steven Jones
53 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:36:54
Many Naive posters in here today letting their frustrations get the better of their knowledge about pre-season action.

I was actually surprised to see Rom get 60+ minutes ... after a week of first phase fitness he was not going to be too sharp nor risk injury ... Del- boy is 3 weeks further down the line in terms of prep hence he is more lively.

Rom is the best Forward of his age in Europe and probably the world. He is rated at 60+ million for a reason. 25 goals last season gives you a clue.

Not one person has suggested a name to replace the selling of Rom - no surprise as it would sound ridiculous as soon as someone would try a name ...

Go on I dare someone ...

Steavey Buckley
54 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:39:23
So many Everton players who are shit; I'll leave the rest of you to fill in the blanks.
Anthony Hughes
55 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:45:42
Rom is the best forward of his age in Europe? I think the likes of Harry Kane and Antoine Greizeman may beg to differ.
Jay Harris
56 Posted 30/07/2016 at 16:52:26
Steven he cant even trap a bag of cement when he is fully fit and there is only Everton right now that value him at over 60m.

I get that you rate his goalscoring but if he doesnt want to be here watch that dry up immediately.

Mourhino saw something in him he didnt like and he is no fool when it comes to judging top players.

Ciarán McGlone
57 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:01:03
Joel Campbell.
Kevin Rowlands
58 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:10:08
Steven, I have had this opinion for a while now, it's got fuck all to do with pre season. He is nowhere near one of the top strikers in the world, if you think that I suggest you're the one being naive. As for names that isn't our job, Walsh was hired to do that, but off the top of my head, Mandzukic, Defoe, Andy Carroll, I'd take any of them 3 over an over rated, doesn't want to be here, lazy lump any day of the week.
Paul Conway
59 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:10:09
Tahir Abdullah @49,

Martinez has gone now. But the same average players are still here... the ones that took us to 11th place two seasons on the trot.

Apart from Coleman, Funes Mori, Barkley (still has frustratingly not reached his potential), Lukaku (inconsistent), Stones (very green); none of the rest are top four team material. These guys are footballers and should know how to play the game. They are getting payed for what they like doing; some are getting payed for just getting out of bed.

I can't go with Martinez leaving a lasting effect on these under-performers (although he was useless). These players put in a woeful past 2 seasons. you can blame it on the Martinez effect, but that's nonsense.

It's not like they are suffering post traumatic stress after being kidnapped, or witnessed a terrorist attack! Ffs, they were only asked to play football! Apart from the players I mentioned, imo the whole team needs to be replaced. and thats without mentioning the three stooges... Kone, Niasse and McGeady!

Steven Jones
60 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:24:12
Kane, Greizeman and Campbell do not have the consistency of Rom over the last few years and are not possible buys ...

So still no realistic options for selling him ...

Rom did it in a poor performing team that did not play to his strengths ...

Best option is to keep him ... to add to him and set the team up better to his strengths and also get a very strong fitness regime going and get Rom to be part of the high pressing which RK is building into the team and he will get more transition situations in the top third ..

I predict if we do that then he will get past 30 goals this season.

Eric Myles
61 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:29:43
"Not one person has suggested a name to replace the selling of Rom - no surprise as it would sound ridiculous as soon as someone would try a name ...

Go on I dare someone ..."

Suarez, Neyemer, Bale, Ronaldo?? Higuain and Ibra if you'd have asked a few days ago.

Robert Elliott
62 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:32:28
The only issue I have with selling Stones or even Rom is the length of time it would take us to find quality replacements. Despite the arrivals of Moshiri, Koeman and Walsh we are still inept when it comes to concluding transfers. For all the promise and hope this is just another typical Everton transfer window. Nothing done till we sell someone. We're five or six players light as it is without selling our starting centre half and centre forward.
David Barks
63 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:35:19
Andy Carroll over Lukaku? Wow.
Steven Jones
64 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:36:48
Exactly Eric - to get one of those not only do we have to find at least 100M plus we also have to have CL for them and have had a few years threatening to win the league ...

I will let you all do the maths and the logic bit ...

Cutting nose to spite face is not the way to build a successful team.

Conor Skelly
65 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:37:47
The squad is stale and certain players are rotten to the core. Huge clear out needed. Go right through the squad and in every player there is something lacking. Every player that can be described as useful comes with a "but" .

Robles - Not good enough
Coleman - Good but Not performing
Stones - Good but Not interested / poisoness
Pennington - Not bad but not ready
Baines - Not the player he was
Oviedo - Not good enough
Holgate - Not good enough / ready
Galloway - Not bad but not the finished article
Jags - Good and honest but not fit
Lennon - Not bad but no end product
Besic - Not good enough
McCarthy - Not good enough
Barry - Not young enough
Davies - Not bad but not ready
Grant - Looks good but too early to tell

Gibson - OK but never fit
Dowell - Not ready
McGeady - Not good enough
Barkley - Can be brilliant but not consistent enough
Cleverley - Not good enough
Mirallas - Can be good but not consistent enough
Delboy - Excellent but not the finished article
Lukaku - Not interested

Kone - Shite

Too many ifs, buts and maybes. Koeman has a big job on his hands. Patience needed. Don't expect a top half finish this year. I think it may get worse before it gets better.


Ste McCoombe
66 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:41:59
Get Carlos Bacca in
Eric Myles
67 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:42:11
Steve, we reportedly have that £100 mill+ to spend, and didn't Higuiain and Ibra sell for less than that? We'd have had change left over.

Besides that, yours was a ridiculous post asking who could replace him, without putting any conditions on the names to be put forward.

Kevin Rowlands
69 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:51:55
Yes David Barks, a fit Andy Carrol over Lukaku any day of the week. Carrol can actually head a ball, trap a ball, complete a 5 yard pass, tackle, is hard as nails, and is a complete nightmare for central defenders, Lukaku is none of that.
Andy Crooks
70 Posted 30/07/2016 at 17:54:03
These players have suffered under the worst coach who was ever paid money to be involved with football. It will take a while for a real manager to undo the damage. We have got a proper coach now and he will do it.

I do find it appalling, though, that Martinez can sign Atsu, Traore, Alcaraz, Kone, Robles, Eto, Niasse, McGeady etc and walk into another job. Bill Kenwright has many reasons to hang his head in shame but the appointment and the extension of contract to the utterly useless Martinez is the very worst of the shit he has inflicted on our club. Without our new owner, Kenwright and Martinez would be relegating us. So, I think Koeman deserves time and patience.

Kevin Rowlands
73 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:03:18
Steven, you keep saying that we need to play to Lukaku's strengths. well, here are his weaknesses...

He is shite in the air;

Cannot trap a ball whatsoever;

Does not hold the ball up when needed;

Cannot make simple passes;

Never attempts to make a tackle;

Forever caught offside last season;

Missed dozens of chances made for him by a team that doesn't play to his 'strengths';

Sulks;

Is lazy;

Hasn't scored a goal for us in THIRTEEN straight games;

Is garbage at taking penalties;

Is convinced he is far better than he actually is;

Has a knobhead father and agent; and

Most importantly... DOESN'T want to be here.

Other than that, he's fucking ace.

Garry Corgan
74 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:07:14
Personally I'd take Lacazette over Lukaku any day. But that's me...
Sam Hoare
75 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:11:21
Conor@65. Bit farcical that player analysis.

Harry Kane- Good BUT knackered from euros
Delle Alli- good BUT temper is a liability
Hazard- decent BUT ropey last year
Aguero- Good BUT can be injury prone
Ozil- Good BUT can drift out of games
Mahrez- maybe good BUT could be one season wonder
Suarez- good sometimes BUT prone to biting...

No-one is perfect and to suggest our entire squad is deficient seems unhelpful to me. A lot of this team are the group who came 5th 3 years ago. They just need to get fit, get motivated and get versed in a tactical system that gets the best out of them. That's what we pay RK a lot of money to do..:

Steve Brown
76 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:18:08
Ciaran 13, Barry was player of the season last year and our best player tonight.
James Marshall
77 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:20:54
It was only a friendly and we drew 1-1.

Lukaku hasn't played for a while - he's been on a jolly in Miami with his mate Paul Pogba = not fit.

Stones and Lukaku causing unrest? Where does this fanciful notion come from? It's not new to anyone on here, or at Everton that Stones wants to leave - is this causing unrest? I don't see any unrest, or hear about any either - just because we drew 1-1 in a friendly everyone throws their toys out of the pram, and claims our squad is suddenly rubbish.

The management team at Everton don't agree with you, and that's why they're the management team, and you rant on forums with knee-jerk claims, and counter-claims.

We'll be fine, don't panic (Mr Mainwaring), all is not lost yet. We've just got rid of a rubbish manager who's clearly and obviously left his mark on the players, so it's going to take time to change. Koeman doesn't have a magic wand and this upcoming season is going to require some patience, and acting like adults, rather than whinging and moaning constantly. As you can see, the whinging and moaning is something that the last manager has left with us supporters, so you can hopefully understand why the players who spent every day listening to him directly, are going to need some time to get it out of their collective system.

Ciarán McGlone
78 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:21:39
You don't keep players who don't want to play for you, and openly mouth off at every opportunity.

£57mill is overpricing him, even in the obscenity that is world football.

Bite their, arms, shoulders and torso off!/p>

Steven Jones
79 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:21:56
Wish we could get behind our club, managers and players and not spew misinterpreted exaggerated bile.

Rom's heading is quite good actually ... 4 or 5 cracking headed goals I think last season.

His control is much netter than people see on hear .. some brilliant interplay and one or two games it was exceptional past season ...

In fact he is perhaps the best player we have had since Rooney and Kanchelskis .. I do not know a better one we have had ...

Wake up and look objectively and appreciate what is the best striker we are likely to get a look at in an Everton shirt until we break into the Champions League.

The golden four we have including Del-Boy, Barks, Rom and Stones Holgate and Galloway are going to be special too) is an amazing collection of talent .. lets use our new money and our great support to keep them together and build something special ..

Docks Stadium, Great new owner, European Heavyweight Manager and a great scout ... times are looking up ...

Wake up, and smell the Roses ... enjoy the ride ,,,

COYB's !!!!

Steven Jones
81 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:26:46
Garry - Lacazette
72 goals in 6 years = 12 per season Half of Rom ..

Ciarán McGlone
82 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:27:07
"Cairan whatever your name piss off if you think koeman will leave. "

Don't know who rattled your cage love, but perhaps you should learn to read. I said nothing of the sort.

Martin Nicholls
83 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:28:00
Ste#66 - absolutely spot on! Brilliant player, available and better than Rom!
Carl Davies
84 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:31:45
I am with you 100% on this Steven Jones, Lukaku is improving year on year and we would be very lucky to find a replacement with anywhere near his ability despite what some of us like to believe.
Ray Roche
85 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:34:22
Ciarán#82, Isn't there another Ciarán who mentioned Koeman resigning? #38.
Kevin Rowlands
86 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:35:15
Steven, why are our opinions misinterpreted bile, yet yours are spot on? I and quite a few others do not rate Lukaku as highly as you do and think we'd be better off moving him on, that's all.
Ciarán McGlone
87 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:36:33
There's another Ciaran... Well I'll be damned.

Maybe I should learn to read.

Denis Richardson
88 Posted 30/07/2016 at 18:39:10
WTF do people expect from RK? The guys been here for just a few week, give him a chance FFS. Remember when he had his squad dismantled (twice) at S'ton, most of his buys were towards the end of the window. It's still only July! Chill out and wait till the end of August to see what the squad looks like.

Agree with those above that say Stones and Lukaku should be shipped out sharp. Not doing squad moral any good. 97m for the two is already a massive sum.

John Daley
89 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:04:35
"Garry - Lacazette
72 goals in 6 years = 12 per season Half of Rom .."

Was that a quick visit to Wikipedia?

He's actually scored 92 goals for Lyon in the last six years.

(Although it's more like five years really, seen as though in his first season in the senior squad...2010/2011 he only spent 190 mins on the pitch in total).

The season after that he was often played in midfield, not as a striker.

To say he scores 12 goals a season is just bollocks:

In the last three seasons he's scored:

23
31
22

His total of 23 last season was reached despite his campaign being disrupted by injuries by the way.

Also, anyone who has ever watched him on a regular basis will know he brings more than just goals to the party. His instant control, movement, speed of thought, positional sense, non-stop harassing of defenders and link up play leaves Lukaku for dead. 

Kevin Rowlands
90 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:11:51
Steven-Lukaku

ZERO goals in last 13 games for Everton plus a missed pen and several sitters in the semi= over rated big lump that needs to be moved on for the sake of the team.

John McGimpsey
91 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:14:29
Read every post and some toffees at each others throats. Well, if we have this so-called money then why are we fighting over two who could leave. Let's see the money, let's see it spent because, if the net spend at the end of this window is zero or less, then these season ticket holders have been conned again.

We all know there are five or six players who are shite and need shifting; so will the manager... but the longer we wait, other teams are bedding their new boys in. If we have money – and that's a very big if then let's see it. Smells of Blue Bill...

90% of those kids are nowhere near ready and in all likelihood be elsewhere in 18 months except maybe Galloway ... So a massive job here and it starts Monday. I expect, not hope for, two signings Monday, Ross a new contract, along with Lukaku staying and John Stones the money we spend... shame.

Chris Gould
92 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:32:57
Kevin, you don't need to say any more. You summed Rom up in a nutshell in post 73.

He isn't anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. He isn't very impressive when he plays for Belgium and presumably he's passionate about playing for his country.
He is too lazy for Koeman's pressing game. He spends at least 5 mins with his hands on his hips every time he sprints.
I hate to use him as an example, but I will...Suarez was made to stay an extra year for the RS and showed what it is to be a professional. The fucker worked his arse off in every match and was an absolute terrier to every defender. He nearly won them the bloody league. His work ethic, desire, and pride was immense and their fans still love him.
Do you think Rom will show the same standards if he's made to stay?
The answer is of course...fuck no!
He doesn't have heart or desire and can fuck off if anyone is dumb enough to pay us such obscene amounts of money as are being reported.

Kevin Rowlands
93 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:44:42
Agree Chris, I've made my point, just annoys me that you are portrayed as anti team, or anti Everton just because you have a different opinion, nothing could be further from the truth, anyway, Lukaku and Stones apart I'm more excited by whats happening at our club than I have been in a very long time.
Jamie Crowley
94 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:47:26
All this talk about Rom makes me feel bi-polar!

On the one hand he's marvelous to watch when he's motivated. Problem is, he can literally look like he's being put out while he plays - like it's a chore and a bother.

For me, I'd prefer someone who is always switched on. Someone who would slap their Mama to win.

I just don't get that feeling, I'd say roughly 75% of the time, when Rom is playing.

But when he's truly motivated, he's an absolute fucking beast of a player and wonderful to watch.

You just never know if you'll get Superman Lukaku or I'd rather be golfing Lukaku.

I don't want that kind of mindset leading the line at Everton.

Sue me, I love to watch Vardy. He seemingly is a bit white-trash; a smarmy little shit... but he never, ever stops and runs through walls to win.

I'm not saying I want Vardy. I'm saying I want that mindset up top.

Jamie Crowley
95 Posted 30/07/2016 at 19:51:19
Soon as I hit "submit your comment" Chris Gould's post pops up.

Yes!

I hate Suarez. I'd not want him ever to wear the jersey.

But I want that approach and mindset from my striker.

Perfect example / analogy Chris.

Damian Wilde
96 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:13:33
Work to be done, yes, but ToffeeWebbers - massively famous for massively catastrophising.

I just got back from Lourdes, so am chilled :) And no I didn't pray for Everton!

Alan Bodell
97 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:20:15
Stephan Jones #53, keep chasing pokemons mate until school opens on monday.
Daniel Joseph
98 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:22:00
Aww, where did Helen's post go? I think she was sitting on the fence and needs to stop procrastinating and say it how it is.
Brightened a long and dismal afternoon at work
Kevin Rowlands
99 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:37:56
Wow I'm chuffed, just figured out how to spell Geri's surname without having to Google it, eu of eu, slot in the d and l in the obvious places, I should patent it. Anyway question, Lukaku + Kone vs Deulofeu + Shane Long, who you taking? It's the shorties for me all day long, would terrorize defences.
Colin Malone
100 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:43:31
A lot of work to be done. A quid plus for Rom will do me. Barry and Geri where the positives.
Stan Schofield
101 Posted 30/07/2016 at 20:59:48
Just had to remind myself of the facts:
Lukaku, 60 goals in 120 games for us.
Complete mismanagement last season.
New manager this season.

Should we let Lukaku go? Ermmmm ...No.

Kevin Rowlands
102 Posted 30/07/2016 at 21:31:33
Stan, that would be 60 goals in 107 games, zero in the last 13, kind of about the period where he, his dad and agent decided he was to good for us, not sure about you but anyone who thinks they are to good for our club and obviouly doesn't want to be here, should we let them go? Errrmmm yes.
Ernie Baywood
103 Posted 30/07/2016 at 22:05:30
I don't understand why Ronald chose to pick two such unbalanced teams. The first had all the creativity, and today's had all the grafters.

I'm sure there's a method to it but as soon as I saw today's lineup it was obviously not going to be too enjoyable to watch.

So not much point judging it. If any pre season game was ever about fitness rather than performance then this was it.

Stan Schofield
104 Posted 30/07/2016 at 22:06:56
Kevin, yes, I agree about the shit end point and attitude problem. But the root cause of the problem was crap management. Lukaku isn't the only one affected. I believe you need to look at his overall impact for us, not just at that disastrous phase and after.

If we get rid of the likes of Lukaku and Stones, and keep criticising Barkley, Mirallas, and others, then this is not the Everton I grew up with. It'll be the relatively mediocre Everton of the last couple of decades. For the great Everton I want again, we have to keep these players, managing them with strong leadership and discipline Surely that's what Koeman is there for.

Tony Draper
105 Posted 30/07/2016 at 22:30:43
Keep Lukaku.
Improve him.
Better supply.
Geri scores more.
Kev M scores more.
Stones learns to solidly defense from RK AND develops a one in three career scoring record like his Boss.

Seems cheaper and more rapid than the continual procrastination of improvement for marginal profit against speculation.

I want:
Silver above profit.
Everton to win the EPL before I die!
AND before our "Norwegian Country n Western" tourist neighbours!

Win, NOT profit!

Brent Stephens
106 Posted 30/07/2016 at 22:44:27
So are we now going to take into account only the last 13 games played to judge a player?! I bet if we'd have applied that test to everybody we'd have ended up binning a few legends.
Kevin Rowlands
107 Posted 30/07/2016 at 23:07:12
Stan, seriously the root cause of the problem is MONEY. It's the same in every industry or walk of life anywhere. Greed, pal, offer more money and guess what? They're off. All this Champions League bullshit, that's what it is, fucking crap. If Bangor City offered him a million a week, his agent £10 mill pay off and Roger free reign in Pattaya all expenses paid, guess what? Yakki Da!
Kevin Rowlands
108 Posted 30/07/2016 at 23:11:18
Brent, what part of you doesn't understand, he DOESN'T want to be here!
Steven Jones
109 Posted 30/07/2016 at 23:17:42
Kevin,
What is your data point?

Or evidence for that since the Euro's?

Sx

Stan Schofield
110 Posted 30/07/2016 at 23:27:00
Kevin, yes, money's the root of all evil, etc. We pretty much know that mate. But the specific root cause of Everton's problems has been mismanagement. The reason for having a new manager is to try to sort the problem out. Unless I'm missing something here.
Kevin Rowlands
111 Posted 30/07/2016 at 23:38:01
Steven, my data point is I've had a couple of beers, this is my last post on this, enjoy and support your hero playing for his beloved Chelsea next season and MOVE ON, no player ever was and ever will be bigger or better than Everton.
Steven Jones
112 Posted 30/07/2016 at 00:24:55
My hero has always been Everton ..

From my dad worshiping TG Jones .. to my hero Alan Ball ... to my hope Duncan Mackenzie ... to Pert Reid and the rest ...to Duncan Ferguson, to Rooney, to Barks, whoever give sus the chance to dream ...

When we won those two titles in the 80's I felt a vacuum, it was the values and dream of Everton that were more important ..

Kendall, Harvey, Reid, Sheedy, Heath, Sharp, Tricky Trev Steven, Psycho - PVDH, Stevens, Harper, Ratcliffe, Mountfield, Southall, Gray, not a team but people that were Everton
We as Evertonians just need to be Evertonians not analysts .. we need to support the next generation and hope they can achieve ...

COYB's

Kevin Rowlands
113 Posted 31/07/2016 at 00:34:29
Steven, thankfully we agree 100%.
Terry White
114 Posted 31/07/2016 at 00:34:38
What is a "data point"?
Kevin Rowlands
115 Posted 31/07/2016 at 00:38:51
Not sure Terry, think old Stevo must live in the Oz and has been hammering it all night, all good though.
Terry White
116 Posted 31/07/2016 at 00:50:25
In the US, where I live, Kevin, in property the words "price point" seem to have taken over from the simple word "price". A "price range" I can understand but cannot get my mind around a "price point", or a "data point"', come to that. Another glass of wine beckons.
Kevin Rowlands
117 Posted 31/07/2016 at 01:01:45
T, I live in the US as well, Tampa, where r u pal?
Terry White
118 Posted 31/07/2016 at 02:15:51
Not exactly neighbours, Kevin, but not far. Panhandle, Panama City Beach, past Destin heading west, we have the Gulf in common.
Andy Meighan
119 Posted 31/07/2016 at 03:45:32
Andy (#70), if Kenwright had his way, Martinez would still be managing the club. After all, who can remember his 2 fingered salute to us all after the Chelsea cup game? "What a manager!" Yeah sure, Bill.

What a manager, alrite. We'd have all been looking forward to a relegation battle if that clown was still in charge. Proving what I've always known. Kenwright really hasn't got a clue about football.

Peter Barry
120 Posted 31/07/2016 at 04:12:16
It seems Lukaku is continuing in the lacklustre disinterested form he showed for the last three months of last season and for the European Championship games for Belgium. Maybe the guy just does not have it at all because, if he does, he is keeping it well hidden from everybody.
Jamie Crowley
121 Posted 31/07/2016 at 05:34:34
I-4 v I-10. I-95, St Augustine, here for the Crowley's.

Those who understand need no Floridian explanation.

Those who don't understand don't matter.

Sunshine State.

Alan J Thompson
122 Posted 31/07/2016 at 06:05:19
I'd like Lukaku to stay, put more effort in and score a bagful every game but I have said on a couple of posts that I would not be surprised to see Mr Koeman play two quicker strikers out of Mirallas, Deulofeu or Barkley in a quicker more mobile formation or indeed rotating them in the same team/game. Lukaku is not the be all and end all.
Amit Vithlani
123 Posted 31/07/2016 at 07:47:18
We are outsiders and don't really know the truth. But the circumstantial evidence suggests a want away striker. Poor body language for several games. Mouthing off in the media. Agent with a reputation.

Unlike Stones, I would accept defeat with Lukaku. He is beginning to remind me of Adebayor, who agitated for a move and did not really play to the maximum towards the end of his time at Arsenal.

Koeman has a huge job on his hands without having to manage someone who is not committed. I think the delay in agreeing a deal is the search for a replacement.

If we buy half decent no 9, then with Geri's recent performances, and perhaps Mirallas finding his scoring boots, we may just be able to replace Rom's goals between 3 players. Barkley and Lennon can then hopefully chip in from midfield to make us a real attacking force.

Barry Williams
125 Posted 31/07/2016 at 08:24:58
I am quite new to ToffeeWeb and there are a lot of well informed comments on here. However, I thought I was a pessimistic Evertonian until joining ToffeeWeb! Wow, some of the knee-jerk comments on here are quite frankly amazing!

Let's just look at the facts (as I interpret them anyway) and throw away paper talk: we have no idea that the amounts being bandied about by the media have any grounding in reality, whether it be the money we have available (why would a chairman show his hand and thus inflate the prices of any targets?) or the valuation of players either to buy or sell.

Koeman rebuilt a Southampton side twice. It could be argued that Everton don't need so much as rebuilding, but some major tweaking. If Koeman is a better manager than Martinez and Martinez got this squad to 11th, then we can expect an improvement.

Koeman has had just 5 preseason friendlies to assess the squad at close quarters. That is also the same for his brother and fitness coach. He has kept a lot of the Everton backroom staff, so we have new blood and continuity behind the scenes. On top of this players have been away in tournaments. Therefore early days, but some old hands to go to for information on the current squad/youngsters.

For those who are getting impatient, Koeman has already ran the rule over players that are superfluous to requirements, McGeady, Niasse, Osman, Pienaar and Hibbert! Of course, it is much quicker to let players go than recruit. But I would say he has been pretty swift here.

There has already been criticism of Steve Walsh!!!!! What is he supposed to do? On top of assessing the squad, Koeman has Walsh to identify targets and they have to converse on this, Koeman was away with Everton doing the preseason friendlies. Walsh's appointment doesn't (for me) mean we are trying to do things on the cheap; we have paid compensation for him and Koeman, so quite the opposite. Walsh may identify some gems for excellent value, what is wrong with that!!!???

Koeman would not have accepted the position if certain recommendations were not in place imo.

As for selling players, no matter what your opinion of Kenwright and Co, is they have always been able to negotiate top dollar when selling players, now we also have Moshiri et al. I feel that will continue, but possibly even more so!

I for one am not feeling impatient. We have a long way until the transfer window shuts, it will take time for the players to shake off the Martinez way and adopt the Koeman way. It will take time for new players to bed in, but we are in transition, this will take some time, but I feel we will eventually see positive results.

If we are indeed targeting better quality players, then there will be more competition, a longer negotiation process. we also have to convince players to come to a team with no European completion. Which means having someone like Walsh on board is all the more important, picking up quality players for which Everton are a step up career wise instead of a step down!

Anyways, a bit long winded, but there you go!

Martin Nicholls
126 Posted 31/07/2016 at 08:38:03
Amit#123 - comparisons with Adebayor not far off the mark. Pierre van Hooijdonk came to mind for me but rather than just down tools but continue to pick up his wages as Rom (and Adebayor) appears to be doing, van Hooijdonk at least had the honesty to withdraw his labour by going on strike, thus foregoing his wages.
Ernie Baywood
127 Posted 31/07/2016 at 08:48:59
Kevin "Brent, what part of you doesn't understand, he DOESN'T want to be here!"

Hardly any of them do! Offer them a move to a CL team and I'll bet every one of them will be off.

"Wanting to be here" nowadays means that your fear of your career going backwards is greater than your hopes of it moving forwards.

So, on balance, we should retain the services of lesser players because they at least want to be here.

Is that why people love Besic so much?

Allan Board
128 Posted 31/07/2016 at 09:22:40
There is no quick fix to all of this. Too many crap players, too many who don't give a toss, and all safely ensconced into the 1st team squad. They won't leave as they are nice and comfortable and earning ridiculous money.

Hungry, nasty, young players please who want to shove it to all and sundry and are a team, managed by an equally nasty, durable bugger who doesn't give a shit for moaning, media seeking, self-obsessed, talk-a-good-game merchants that Everton currently have.

Where has all the self-respect gone in footballers? Long overdue for a player press ban, a few piss ups after games so that a team might even come together and be mates.

If they try and turn Koeman over in respect of transfers, he will tell them to shove it and leave. He doesn't require the money being bandied around on here – look what he spent at Southampton. His style of play will not be suited to the majority of current players as it involves constant pressure and hard work – that's been missing for nearly 3 years and now these players are too set in their ways to change. A pressing game needs to be coached and each player directed to a position of advantage; it will take months with fresh new players... impossible with the current crop.

A fire sale and at least 8 new, young players arriving throughout the season. I anticipate a few notable wins, but ultimately a mid-table finish and then improvement for the following season, by which time, 80% of the current team will be gone.

Patience from fans, ruthlessness in the dugout and on the pitch, transparency and a proper business plan from the financial crew is needed at EFC for the next 5 years.

David Milner
129 Posted 31/07/2016 at 09:57:08
In today's game every player has a price.

Lukaku's is £65 mill, Stones is £45 mill. If we got offered that in cash for them we would take it. With astute buying (Walsh & Koeman) we could get in 4 - 5 very good players for that.

Every player has his peak & sell by date. Neither Lukaku or Stones will improve enough in their lifetime to be worth more than today's price.

As for the sell by date, at Everton we seem to keep many players past theirs & pay them inflated wages as well.

Now is time for change.

Steven Jones
130 Posted 31/07/2016 at 10:00:50
Terry 114 ...
A Data point is a point of data of fact, something tangible that is not made up from subjective frustration.

Many loyal Evertonians don't mind factual based insights and commentary but when a series of subjective emotionally driven comments that are violently derogatory to our players, our management and the club then we have the right to challenge on where the facts are for these opinions?

Hence my comment - what is the point of data?

Phil Walling
131 Posted 31/07/2016 at 10:28:57
It seems highly unlikely that ANY club would put up £75M for Lukaku on the evidence of his last dozen or so appearances for Everton and Belgium.

Accepting the Betis game as a training stint, I believe our man will have to show something special in the opening games of the season if he is to achieve his ambition of a move to a big-time club.

Of course, he may choose to honour us with a modicum of effort in front of the Old Trafford crowd next week on the basis of needing a big stage on which to perform. At least the home team will have two or three more than decent strikers to compare him with !

Stan Schofield
132 Posted 31/07/2016 at 10:47:53
I've supported Everton since 1961, and I've always had the sense that when a player hits a bad patch the worst thing fans can do is shout negatives. Even our hero Alan Ball hit some shaky patches after the 1970 World Cup. To my amazement, there were people in the crowd barracking him. Similar happened to Howard Kendall, who was consistently solid, keeping the side together, but hit the inevitable drop in form, and got barracking from the crowd. I could cite other examples.

I know it's within everyone's right to express their feelings, and I do it myself at times, but mostly inwardly. For me, if someone is having a bad patch, fans barracking them is likely to make things worse. In 55 years of support, I don't recall it making things better. But I do recall the roar of 40,000 fans (often 60,000 when I started going) making things better, spurring the lads on, especially when the chips are down.

It doesn't matter how much money is in the game, every player responds to encouragement from fans. It's the manager's job to give bollockings when needed, targeted bollockings aimed at improving. I don't believe it's the job of the fans, regardless of our 'rights' to express our opinions.

Ultimately, I think criticism from fans is illogical. We're more likely to get players to play the way we want them to, with fire in their bellies, if we provide fire as well.

if Lukaku and Stones want out, continual criticism from fans wont't help. Especially given the clearly acknowledged management problems of the last couple of seasons.

Brent Stephens
133 Posted 31/07/2016 at 11:12:53
Kevin (#108): "Brent, what part of you doesn't understand, he DOESN'T want to be here!"

What part of you doesn't understand that my post refers only to the point about how many games he'd gone without scoring. Not difficult.

Tony Draper
134 Posted 31/07/2016 at 11:24:57
Steven Jones @112.
You have burgled my head, and you are most welcome.

Completely and utterly correct, without fault, aberration or a missed step. A statement as perfect as Sharpies goal at "The Compost End" of our disused property.

Well said Sir.

Steven Jones
135 Posted 31/07/2016 at 11:26:41
Stan – best post on here by miles.
Tony Draper
136 Posted 31/07/2016 at 11:56:48
Stan @132.
Like Steve @112, another superb post.

To expand upon the point, entirely made.

I'm entirely dumbfounded by this delusion that Newcastle fans are the greatest in the land, or indeed the equally silver allergic hammers. Throughout my entire experience as an Evertonian, I cannot recall them encouraging their team by way of chants nor anthems.

The Barcodes repeatedly lavish self praise upon eachother whilst continually ignoring their team/players, how very inspiring ? It's worked a bloody treat since "The Inter Cities Fairs Cup" (1968) hasn't it? (A trophy so long forgotten that even Indiana Jones couldn't find the fuckin' thing!)

The Irons (interestingly "cock our knees" rhyming slang for homer satchels), have a long litany of "hymns of hatred". This has been burnished to a gleaming finish since Brooking scored the only header of his "glittering" career in 1980.

My point is, make noise, chant, cheer, encourage and you WIN! The other stuff is for losers.

Case in point: the night that we did Bayern, I can only recall singing "Everton! Everton!" ALL night! It frightened the shite out of them! But most importantly, it drove the lads in the Royal Blue Jerseys ever onward!

I'd love Everton FC to completely ban ALL abuse (even the "Hang the Kopites one by one" stuff). Drop the 'underdog' bullshit, it's the fare of serial losers.

Praise, honour and inspire.

Stan Schofield
137 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:00:00
Cheers Steve. I just think, if a Goodison roar can make the hairs stand up at the back of my neck, chances are it does the same to the players.

This is not Goodison Park, it's ToffeeWeb, but we can do similar. We can make it clear to Man City, journalists, or anyone else, that we're Everton, and our best players are not for sale.

Stan Schofield
138 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:06:43
Tony, yes, that Bayern match was totally unforgettable. It's the "Everton! Everton!" chant that does it.
Ray Roche
139 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:16:25
Tony,#136, interesting about the 'Ammers fans and the Boleyn Ground/Upton effin Park or whatever they'll call it next, a block of flats, presumably... But I was watching a BBC reporter interviewing some bugger there last week and the pitch is about 50 yards from the fans. So, there'll be no bear-pit atmosphere there in that council house in the future.
Tony Draper
140 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:28:30
Ray @139.

Very true! Just recently watching the athletics from "The Irons" new rented space, I'd bloody hate for us to be that far from the touchlines.

Imagine just how desolate that place is going to sound with 12,000 in there, all of them a solid 10-minute jog to the pitch? As they're facing bloody Milwall in the derby of the 'Stendahs' in a couple of seasons time when "the new ground curse" has taken full effect?

Phil Walling
141 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:44:02
By your reckoning, Stan, we shouldn't have expressed our horror and criticism at the 'management problems' the Club encountered over 'the past two seasons', then?

Suffer in silence – it will all come right in the end is it?

Really?

Brent Stephens
142 Posted 31/07/2016 at 12:58:46
I thought the 'Ammers new ground had retractable seating?? so for footy, fans are close to the pitch, then several rows of seating are retracted for the arffletics??
Stan Schofield
143 Posted 31/07/2016 at 13:01:10
Phil, I didn't say that at all! You're not a journalist by any chance?

Concerns have rightly been raised about management problems. Mismanagement was the root cause of Everton's problems last season. That's why we have a new manager, to sort the problems out that arose from the root cause.

Given that it's likely that the performance of players like Lukaku is a result of the mismanagement root cause, the players are unlikely to be the main problem. The guy has scored 60 goals in 120 games, the last 10% or so of those games being problematic. So I don't think Lukaku is the problem. The problem is the effects of the mismanagement, which we can now hopefully remedy. Negative criticism of the players from fans is unlikely to help.

That's just another way of saying what I said in the post.

So, no, we don't suffer in silence, we encourage players, and to do otherwise is in my opinion self-defeating and therefore illogical.

Ray Roche
144 Posted 31/07/2016 at 13:06:15
Brent, even allowing for movable seats, it doesn't look feasible for the fans to be as close to the pitch as I'm sure they'd like to be. It does look a LONG way from the pitch.

I mean, those 'Ammers fans won't be able to spit at players now, will they?

Tony Weedon
145 Posted 31/07/2016 at 13:06:16
God help me, I can see Stones and Lukaku staying till January and Koeman telling them, "If you want away, then grow a pair and put yourself in the shop window with performances to be proud of... not the shite you've been dishing out in the near past."

I hope Koeman is ruthless and gets shut of those who are an affront to those who pay their wages.

Not this season, I'm afraid, but Walsh and Koeman can deliver a team who will be proud to wear the Blue.

Rob Halligan
146 Posted 31/07/2016 at 13:16:46
Also, Ray, all those bubbles will have burst before they reach the pitch!!
Phil Walling
147 Posted 31/07/2016 at 13:19:08
Stan, I have every reason to believe that OIPM followed your theory to the letter. I am told he never 'criticised' only 'encouraged' the players – and look where that got us!

No doubt an extension of your argument is that vocal criticism by fans is the very reason we finished as low as 11th. That argument has been done and dusted on here many times before – I just don't buy into it.

I guess the shortcomings and failures of our players must all be down to me!

Stan Schofield
148 Posted 31/07/2016 at 14:12:21
Phil, I'm in danger of losing the will to live mate.
David Israel
149 Posted 31/07/2016 at 15:55:14
Jay Harris (#56),

Mourinho has an indifferent record of judging players. After all, he got rid, not only of Lukaku, but of Kevin De Bruyne, Arjen Robben and Juan Mata - to name but a few.

Terry White
150 Posted 31/07/2016 at 16:52:55
Steven (#130), thank you, I am better informed...I think. I am totally in favour of statements being supported rather than gratuitously offered as facts. From so-called politicians to the rest of us, if you say something loud and often it eventually becomes "fact". And if anyone objects, say it again more often and louder and then it is definitely a fact.
Terry White
151 Posted 31/07/2016 at 16:57:39
Kevin (#117), Jamie (#121), from Tampa to St. Augustine to Panama City Beach we seem to have the coasts of Florida covered. Distances a little far to get together for a beer on night.

Have wanted to go to St. Augustine as visiting the Golf HoF is on my "bucket list".

Paul Conway
152 Posted 31/07/2016 at 20:54:25
Barry Williams @125 – some truth in your comments, but one of the problems we have besides nearly a full team of very average players is, most of them don't have any real significant sell-on value. We would probably make a loss on McCarthy who, IMHO, was not worth the money we paid for him.

I am excluding Funes Mori and Coleman, Lukaku and Stones, from the rest of the team, as they could make us a killing. Also, I am talking about players we bought as opposed to players who came through the ranks.

Dave Long
153 Posted 31/07/2016 at 21:57:53
Stan Schofield making so much sense. If the player is not putting the effort in, a barracking is warranted. If the player isn't playing well, leave it. Screaming at him is not going to improve matters. Big Bob Latch used to get heckled for laziness, then suddenly slot a couple. Could Rom be the new Bob?
Mike Powell
154 Posted 01/08/2016 at 13:18:22
Andy Carroll couldn't lace Rom's boots – you can't be serious! And anyone who thinks Kane is a better player – did you watch the Euros? He was piss poor.

Alright, if he wants away, let him go for as much money as we can get, but only if we get a replacement first... FFS, not someone like Andy Carroll. I'm still laughing now.

Niall McIlhone
155 Posted 01/08/2016 at 16:05:06
Sorry to intrude on the disparate themes on this thread but, returning to the article, I was at both games in Dresden, and can say that we were very poor overall, even given the leisurely pace that comes with pre-season games.

We had more fans in the stadium than most away teams will bring to Goodison this season, but even then, I felt we all found it hard to raise our levels as there was so little on offer other than some good stuff from Geri Deulofeu, and the calm authority of Gareth Barry in the Betis game.

Mr Koeman and his management team have serious work to do in the next two weeks, and if this rests upon building a team on the back of sales of Lukaku and Stones, then so be it.

Personally, I just want us to settle on a team we can be proud of and someone (anyone!) with the spirit of the likes of Cahill to inject some life. We lack character, and Koeman must by now see this.

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