Docklands land purchase could cost £20m

17 August  147 Comments  [Jump to last]
Everton would need to pay around £20m to buy the land earmarked as a potential location for a new stadium in the banks of the Mersey, it is being reported.

The Liverpool Echo say that while there has been no confirmation that Peel Holdings would be prepared to sell the 15-hectare site, the club at least know what they would be looking at in terms of purchasing the land.

Keeping Everton In Our City (KEIOC) come to the same conclusion based on land values in the City estimated at £990,000 per hectare, with a £5m premium presumably for the waterside location at Trafalgar and Clarence Docks.

The North Docks area is one of two "brownfield" sites Everton are considering as alternatives to redeveloping Goodison Park as Farhad Moshiri and the Board seek to finally find a resolution to the club's long-standing stadium issue.

Peel, meanwhile, had planned to incorporate the site into their £5bn waterfront development project.

 

Reader Comments (147)

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Laura Round
1 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:38:16
Easy peasy if Usmanov comes aboard!
Steavey Buckley
2 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:45:41
If Peel want to develop a £5 billion dock site near Sandhills, they should be paying Everton to move there. Not the other way around.
Stewart Lowe
3 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:51:36
It's not my money but for a piece of land that size and in that location I would have said 㿀m could be a snip. We need to watch this space though as once a developer is aware of its value to us, they could easily triple it.

However, a well lit stadium by the water would look stunning and the for the long term it would always remain attractive to possible investors and players for many years to come.

Tony J Williams
4 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:55:54
Don't worry lads, the money has been ringfenced, the cheques in the post etc etc
Brian Williams
5 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:56:34
If the £20m is true then it's an absolute no brainer. Involve those involved with the Commonwealth games bid and we're up and running.
Dan Parker
6 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:57:39
Get it done
Steve Guy
7 Posted 17/08/2016 at 15:58:37
Please let this happen, it will be like winning the lottery for Club and fans alike ...plus the RS assigned to the fringe for once
John Critchley
8 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:00:33
£20m sounds a fantastic opportunity, if it happens. It was mentioned before on another post about traffic infrastructure around the docklands site! Does anyone think it wouldn't have to be a massive issue, or am I getting it wrong?

I haven't had to drive away from around goodison for years, as I live in bootle so always walked, but surely regent Road, great Howard street, roads through town or up Leeds Street would dissipate the traffic easier than it is at goodison now?

Paul Kossoff
9 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:02:01
Ooo, Uncle Bill won't like that, there is no way Kenwright is letting any of his pension be spent on a new stadium. As someone said about the Stones transfer, 'Profit over substance'.

The excuse Kenwright will come out with is that Everton have been promised any new stadium that will possibly be built in the possibility of Liverpool possibly being awarded the games in 2026. Bill will be long retired by then and when that falls flat he won't be taking the flak.

Let's see if our 'New owner' gets his wallet out and puts his money where his mouth is, which so far he hasn't.

Martin Faulkner
10 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:04:27
So £6.5m and Niasse then?
Paul Turner
11 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:08:52
£20M isn't much, compared to the money being splashed about summer on players. OK, the build and infrastructure costs will be on top of that figure, but a modern stadium on the famous waterfront? Worth every penny/rouble...
Tony X Williams
13 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:13:57
If we really are planning to move to a new stadium, why are we spending hundreds of thousands of pounds just to cosmetically revamp the Old Lady?
Trevor Skempton
14 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:16:29
Absolute bargain, but no running track – that would kill it. The only major transport infrastructure needed would be a new Vauxhall Station. Most car users could park in the City Centre office area.
Geoff Williams
15 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:17:44
As a percentage of the overall cost of the stadium £20m seems good value. The stadium has to be built on the docks.
Iain Latchford
16 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:24:00
Tony, a friend of mine works for the company that is doing the bannering around Goodison. He told me that the cost would be around £100k. Considering we'll be at Goodison for at least three years (if we move) it seems a relatively small cost (around the same some players will earn in one week).
Jeff Armstrong
17 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:26:14
Forget about linking in the commonwealth games, that is 10 years away, we need the new stadium in 3-4 years, if it does get linked to the games then it would have to incorporate a running track,and that would be a disaster.
Liam Reilly
18 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:29:11
Would be a travesty not to take this second chance.

This is an opportunity for the club to really make a statement of intent that would dwarf Anfield's renovation.

Time for the club to become Number 1 in the city again.

Richard Dodd
19 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:32:09
Tony @13. I don't think ANYONE at Everton has ever said we shall have a new ground in two years. That was the mayor of the time who will probably never be heard from again.

Moshiri or no Moshiri, I think we shall be well into 'the twenties' by the time any new stadium is delivered. In the meantime, here's a can of primer!

Jamie Crowley
20 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:33:05
I'd sell Rom and have Geri lead the line to get this done if that figure is true.

Donning that tin hat thingy...

Never been to the Mecca of football that is Liverpool, England, but from what I can gather this site would be the best we could get – from reading many TW contributions.

This is a business and our performance on the ledger is important. A new site with a new stadium would put us in a prime financial position for half a century.

Mick Davies
21 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:33:52
How about Kenwright paying it out of the profit he made from the shares he sold (he's still got shares so he wouldn't be out of pocket). We could name a stand (or pen) in his honour. Let's see how much of an Evertonian he is.
Les Martin
22 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:34:14
Its a cert in my book that we will have stadium at the Dock. That is what Mr Moshiri and the fans want, he and us wont be satisfied with anything less.
Willliam Bruce
23 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:34:47
Has any work actually been done on Goodison. Inside I noticed stuff, but what about the exterior?
Rick Tarleton
24 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:48:40
This sounds the ideal location, there are provisos about the logistics, but at first glance it's a no-brainer. We must go for it and not miss out like the King's Dock fiasco.
Mike Corcoran
26 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:49:26
It's the Arteta ISA coming good at last
Bob Hannigan
27 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:50:38
Being a brownfields site the £20 million could only be the "down payment", cleanup costs could skyrocket that number.
Iain Johnston
28 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:50:38
£20m could easily be clawed back through ground sponsorship and naming rights not to mention car parking in a purpose built multi story. I'd even cosy up to Whitbread and let them build a Prem' Inn, there's enough space... I quite like the idea of a Costa with me half time scores, have to be blue cups mind.

I wonder how much Arsenal paid for their piece of no mans land sandwiched between two railway tracks and has the east coast main line rattling it's foundations every 30 minutes?

Colin Glassar
29 Posted 17/08/2016 at 16:55:10
What's £20m to noveau riche BPB? That's just a bit more than he sanctioned for Russia's "Player of the Year".

If EFC ever have any ambition to make the next step this has to happen.

Steven Jones
30 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:00:20
Martin F – Brilliant!

My laugh out loud moment of the day! Cheers!!!

Gordon Crawford
31 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:03:31
Sounds like a snip at £20 million. I just hope that Peel Holdings sell us the land we need.
Tony Steele
32 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:10:32
What are we waiting for? Christmas?
Steve Hogan
33 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:13:01
To my knowledge it was KEIOC who produced this bit of latest information on the situation with Peel Holdings etc and the north dockland site.

It's well worth reading the report (dated today) on their website. Apparently, Peel Holdings received planning permission for their 'Liverpool Waters' project over four years ago, and the 'project' has not moved forward one iota since then. So before we all start getting a little bit giddy, there are a number of obstacles to be overcome first.

A brand new sparkling stadium on the waterfront is all well and good, but we need the appropriate development to go alongside it.

I would presume the new regime at Everton will be well aware of this fact before issuing an official statement to the fans etc.

At least we now seem to have the level of commercial acumen within the boardroom to have a real fighting chance of bringing the project to fruition.

Mike Green
34 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:13:12
Peanuts.
Matthew Williams
35 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:18:32
This move needs to happen, a waterfront location could be the beginning of untold riches & mega global profile.

We cannot miss this opportunity & with the Commonwealth games being planned, the timing could be perfect.

The Peoples Club needs a a world class, iconic stadium, our future could be very bright indeed... Believe Blues!.

Damian Wilde
36 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:21:44
Pay it. Small change.
Eric Holland
37 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:31:29
I think what will need to be done is to fill in two docks, one for the stadium and one to facilitate a multi story car park.

Also I think the dock wall has a listed building type of order on it so that could be a problem for access.

Daniel Joseph
38 Posted 17/08/2016 at 17:43:53
Crocky it is then - Oh Well
Jos Rowland
39 Posted 17/08/2016 at 18:01:50
Mike, Pienaar is training with Sunderland. Not sure how he would help build a new stadium anyway.
Ian Linn
40 Posted 17/08/2016 at 18:10:40
Not a lot of money in today's economic climate - just do it.
Gordon White
41 Posted 17/08/2016 at 18:14:43
One thing's for sure, after years of waiting, its actually going to happen. Its going to happen!!! Woohoo. I'm sure that wherever it ends up being, it will be a real statement . Isn't great to be able to dream again. A potential new waterfront home and some of the players we are being linked with. Relatively, only 5 minutes ago, it would have all been pie in the Sky. OMG! It's really exciting. Thank you Mr Moshiri.
Trevor Skempton
42 Posted 17/08/2016 at 18:15:39
Eric:

No docks need filling in on the former Clarence Dock site, nor would further filling-in be allowed. The Dock Wall is an important listed structure and part of the World Heritage Site. Careful design needed but it would not be a deal-breaker. The main criteria should be:

[1] a state-of-the-art first phase to hold 48,000;

[2] plans to add an ultimate phase to ensure a venue fit and large enough for the European Cup Final [and, of course, a home for the European Champions], and

[3] no running-track at any stage, ever: nobody has been able to solve the football-athletics mix. It just kills the atmosphere for regular club football.

Just wait for the reaction from West Ham fans someway down the line, once they realise what they've been landed with. It'll be

Juventus all over again - ditching the multi-purpose Delle Alpi [built for Italia 90] and building themselves a proper ground instead.

Anything less and we should retain expanding Goodison as Plan A.

Ged Simpson
43 Posted 17/08/2016 at 18:17:58
Don't expect anything apart from demand for full price plus full compensation for any potential lost revenue from Peel. We may have a shrewd businessman but Peel are in a different league. I really pray a deal can be done.
Tony Draper
45 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:06:00
Trevor @42.

"Nobody has been able to solve the football-athletics mix. "

I seem to recall that Man City did resolve this issue through forward planning. What I had been given to understand is that when the stadium was built the there were several layers of terracing beneath the running track. Once the Commonwealth Games were over, the surface was excavated down to its present football pitch level. Consequently the now exposed terracing brought the spectators in "Row A" considerably closer to the touchlines.

That doesn't sound like an unrealistic approach to have been taken.

Phil Martin
46 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:28:48
Give me a Tesco identikit supermarket stadium any day. Deal of the century I tell you.
Trevor Skempton
47 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:32:42
Tony:

The Manchester Commonwealth Games Stadium was always a half-built football stadium in disguise. Not only was the track permanently removed and the pitch lowered, but for athletics, it was a three-sided venue plus a temporary stand set way back – the track stuck out at one end. Once the four-sided enclosure had been completed, athletics was off the agenda. How they pulled that trick off I don't know, but I'm sure nobody will get away with it again! In any case, surely Everton won't wait until after the Commonwealth Games come to Liverpool!

The Principality [Millennium] Stadium in Cardiff once had a running track for an earlier Commonwealth Games as well, but since rebuilding, re-introduction of athletics is now impossible.

Wembley was designed so that a running track could be inserted over the lowest level of seats – this [daft] idea was abandoned and the Olympic Stadium built, but not before a big Olympic lottery grant had been given to Wembley [which I don't think was ever returned – I might be wrong]. But Wembley still feels too 'open' to be a successful club stadium – one-off special occasions are perhaps a different matter.

A big effort was made, from the start, to combine football and athletics at the Stade de France, but the final result is unconvincing, although it's more successful than West Ham's new home will ever be.

Dan Davies
48 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:33:38
Enough of all the talk – let's get this one started asap.
Craig Walker
49 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:41:01
This is our chance. Let's not blow it (again). Please make it happen Moshiri!
Trevor Skempton
50 Posted 17/08/2016 at 19:46:26
Just one final word with respect to the Wembley Olympic issue, mentioned above [47]:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/wembley-happy-plans-meet-terms-of-lottery-grant-741745.html

Anthony Dwyer
51 Posted 17/08/2016 at 20:01:52
£20m . No problem, just use the Lukaku money next week.
Michael Polley
52 Posted 17/08/2016 at 20:10:59
Get the cheque book out Mr Moshiri
Jon Cox
53 Posted 17/08/2016 at 20:16:46
In the words of Edward James Olmos from Miami Vice,

"Do it"

Gerry Quinn
55 Posted 17/08/2016 at 20:52:41
In order to save money, and still have a crackin' atmosphere, Everton should set a first in stadium design by reducing the track area...just imagine it:

a) not the 1,500m, but the 1,342.5 metres
b) not the 800m, but the 716.14 metres
c) not the 200m hurdles, but the 179.53m hurdles (just move the last 2 hurdles together!)
d) the 89.57681m sprint, where Usain Bolt doesn't smile for such a long time...

Maybe they could also propose to the Commonwealth Games Committee that the throwers secure a small parachute onto the javelin so that it opens mid-air and doesn't fly so far then?

Ian Cowhig
56 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:18:33
I have been told two pieces of information about the Dockland area. The first was that Peel approached Everton about building on the site. And the second was that some work needs to be done on it due to some contamination. Though the people who told me were not sure what it was.
John Anderson
57 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:23:41
Dan (#48),

It already has started mate, meetings with all involved are ongoing.

Geoff Williams
58 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:24:20
Trevor (#47), you are totally wrong about the Millennium Stadium. The old Arms Park Stadium had a track but that disappeared as the stadium was modernised and developed in the late 60s and 70s. This stadium was knocked down in the late 90 and the Millennium Stadium built.

The Millennium Stadium has never had a track and neither did the modernised Arms Park. The Millennium Stadium, sorry the Principality Stadium, is however used for a whole range of activities: concerts, speedway, monster truck meetings etc.

Eric Holland
59 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:40:29
Trevor #42

This is what I have been told, and the person who told me knows what he is talking about.

Jon Cox
60 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:43:56
Have no problem what-so-ever with a running track in the new stad.

As long as it's around the perimeter in Bill's office. And that goes for the sync swimming shot put and rifle shooting..

Kristian Boyce
61 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:48:41
I'm sure the £20M for a new stadium is "ringfenced" already, and the cheque is in the mail.
Tony Abrahams
63 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:49:15
It wouldn't surprise me to see Everton, do something similar Trevor (#47), that is if we are fortunate enough to build a stadium on such an iconic site.
Trevor Skempton
64 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:55:54
Geoff [58];

You're correct. But the rebuilding of the Arms Park, and then the Millennium Stadium on the same site, did not [and could not] accommodate the running track - that's the point I was trying to make. I'm old enough to remember all the different incarnations!

And Eric [42 and 59]:

There will undoubtedly be World Heritage issues, but I don't think they are insurmountable.

My preference has always been to expand Goodison in affordable increments, keeping a tight hold of its history. But I admit I'm as excited as anyone else by the potential of a brand-new waterfront site, providing the design is world-class and everything possible is done to create the 'optimum' football atmosphere.

Bob Parrington
65 Posted 17/08/2016 at 21:59:22
What if Moshiri considers to buy (or through a consortium) the whole development project from (or including) Peel and make some good on-going dosh on the side??? Imagine!

Bob Wake up! Wake up! What were you dreaming about????

Alec Smith
66 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:05:33
Geeez £20m thats a bloomin bargain.

My old local booza went for £32m

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-32million-pub-in-east-londons-docklands-312400

Snap their bleedin hands off!!!!!!

Terence Beresford
67 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:08:34
Hope this comes to fruition. I have to drive past the Echo Arena every day and it cracks me up!!
Dan Davies
68 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:09:37
John@57, are you Joe's brother? Lol
Simon Bradley
69 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:10:31
Usmanov comes on board, this is peanuts.
Colin Glassar
70 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:12:36
Enough of all this disturbing optimism, where are the next batch of new players? Things have gone quiet again.
Alexander Lee
71 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:34:08
Surely the timing of these two rumours is a bit coincidental.. Smack bang in the middle of the transfer window with 3-4 transfers in the works..

A bit of cloak and dagger perhaps... These little snippets of positivity could help get a player or two over the line.
Brian Williams
72 Posted 17/08/2016 at 22:43:04
Colin you're a right shitstirrer...you bored? Lol.
Gerard Wood
73 Posted 17/08/2016 at 23:02:23
Is it just me but a stadium by the docks in the middle of winter, wind blowing? No thanks.
Brian Williams
74 Posted 17/08/2016 at 23:35:39
Gerard, yeh it's just you.
David Price
75 Posted 17/08/2016 at 23:42:44
https://www.facebook.com/bigdunc9/photos/a.340967669394651.1073741835.193471624144257/654237798067635/?type=3

Interesting link this one. Straight from an Arsenal webpage.

Things may never be the same again...

Len Hawkins
76 Posted 17/08/2016 at 23:50:10
Gerard #73 Man up buy yourself a parka if its cold by the Mersey its cold at GP too.
Ronnie McComish
77 Posted 17/08/2016 at 23:56:14
As Goodison is not on the menu, I think we are all pretty agreed it's the Docks! We all want it and all it costs is a Niasse and a Kone (not the good defensive one). So let's get this done, Everton.

As new grounds go this is a good plan. We are regenerating an area, we are not building on a park or forest, and even for me – one of the most gloom ridden, suspicious and distrustful fans left out there – I may just start believing again. I may... just may be able to forget about the Fortress Sports Fund, NTL and the Kings Dock.

This is it; we don't need Messi, Rodriguez or even Austin. Get us this and that's me made up. Moshiri is real and not another load of Billy Liar BS.

Although thinking about it.. what part of the Docks? It's a big place... Please close to town and not the stinky bit by United Utilities!

Steve Smith
78 Posted 17/08/2016 at 00:11:13
Peel Holdings are essentially property managers looking to attract enabling investment to develop on their land, its rare for them to spend their own money on development projects and are always looking for "partners".

They do of course want to leave a couple of fingers in the pie, and will look at deals that give them a long term return, like retaining the freehold on the land that gets developed and occupied by the "partner".

The mooted 㿀M price tag for the land is usually not an upfront cost (even though that money really is a drop in the ocean for Everton these days) it will be mortgaged (and Everton will reclaim all the interest paid on the mortgage from the taxman).

I'm guessing Everton would have to come up with a plan and commit to developing the whole site rather than just the stadium.

The blurb on Peels website would have you believe there is lots of interest in this and other sites in their portfolio, I think if that was the case, (barring serious contamination issues) this site would have gone a long time ago.

It looks like their projects for Liverpool waterfront and Wirral waters have stalled. I think Peel may need Everton just as much as Everton need Peel

Lukas Polster
79 Posted 17/08/2016 at 00:20:05
If one part had some standing area this could maybe recreate Gwladys St in a new stadium otherwise it could become like Emirates etc with poor atmosphere.

I love Everton but my home team is Rapid Wien. They have a new stadium but with safe standing behind goal has not lost the amazing atmosphere. Have a look on YouTube (opening vs Chelsea) and see if you like it.
Peter Morris
80 Posted 18/08/2016 at 02:40:43
It's an interesting one this as the 'land' isn't actually 'land' is it? It's reclaimed river bank. Anyway, Peel are consummate dealers who as others have said, rarely use substantial sums of their own money, so I guess the equation for them is..."after 5 years of marketing effort around the world, what are the REAL prospects of getting Liverpool Waters away in its current format any time soon?

What is the impact of losing the space that would be sacrificed for a football stadium with all of its support infrastructure? and then, what positive impact could the stadium have on pump priming an albeit reduced Liverpool Waters 2 project? Finally, 㿀m in the bank is 㿀m in the bank!"

Matt Traynor
81 Posted 18/08/2016 at 03:46:37
Lukas (#79),, I know what you're saying, and I know they've now introduced it at Celtic Park (?) but even if the Premier League would allow it, even on a trial basis, Everton would never go for it – it's too sensitive in the city, and having stood shoulder-to-shoulder with them since 1989, it'd be a PR disaster.

The key is not about seats or standing, it's about limiting access to a particular space. If the same overcrowding occurred in a seated area, whilst the loss of life would be offset by the lack of barriers blocking egress to the pitch, there would be far more injuries to limbs etc. with people being bundled over seats. Semantics, will never happen.

Richard Leeming-McHale
82 Posted 18/08/2016 at 05:51:08
That location is uneatable. We're not going to be gifted a new home like City and West Ham, so the price seems appropriate to what we are looking to achieve. But beware – as mentioned earlier – it could cost a lot to clean up!
Julian Wait
83 Posted 18/08/2016 at 06:03:17
Just a thought – with the Louisiana floods "next" to those of us here in Texas – what about good old Global Warming and rising seas and the impact on coastal cities globally?

I realize we'd all be worried about a lot more than footy of the seas rise significantly, but are developers – and tenants – taking potential rising seas into account in places like Liverpool?

At least if we get Usmanov we'd have a huge yacht as an Ark ...

Jon Cox
84 Posted 18/08/2016 at 06:52:02
Julian, if the sea did rise we could always change our sport to water polo.
Tommy Webber
85 Posted 18/08/2016 at 07:29:05
Does anyone have a good name for our new stadium? The Gem of the Mersey or dare I say...The 4th Grace??? Yeah I know, my head's in the clouds! (pun intended).
Laurie Hartley
86 Posted 18/08/2016 at 09:25:46
Bob # 65 or what if he gets his mate Usmanov's son in law Anton Viner to partner with Peel.

Link
Business people like Usmanov are always looking for "opportunities". The development of the Liverpool waterfront represents a huge opportunity for anyone who gets the concept right.

I have posted previously that I am prone to a vivid imagination but this whole thing could turn out "bigger than Ben Hur".

Kevin Moorcroft
87 Posted 18/08/2016 at 09:27:46
How much is the land at Goodison worth in respect of development? Sureley makes £20 million at the docklands worth spending when we've got that valuable item!
Ray Roche
88 Posted 18/08/2016 at 09:53:18
Matt Traynor #81

Matt, it's well known that the Kop stand for the entire game at every match without any added safety measures. Reading RS forums on the subject this morning after seeing your post it would appear that there are many advocates for an area where there are measures in place to allow fans to stand and cheer the team on in complete safety.

In the Street End with every attack we're up and down like it's a pilates session, how difficult would it be to bring in a safe area? It's a bit rich the RS as a club allowing the Kop to stand every game yet still opposing standing areas at other stadiums. And that's not in any way a slight on the families of the 96, believe me. Safe standing is a possibility and should be considered.

James Marshall
89 Posted 18/08/2016 at 11:32:48
Anyone else seen the rumours of our new stadium being based on the Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis?

If you've never seen it, a quick Google will give you an idea. Old school from the outside, tight and noisy in the inside with supporters close to the pitch and high end terraces.

It's pretty epic.

Gary Hughes
90 Posted 18/08/2016 at 11:55:58
James@89. Where are the rumours coming from?
James McPherson
91 Posted 18/08/2016 at 12:09:27
Sorry to rain on the parade, and I so wish this was a goer... But a journo friend of mine who is well placed in Arsenal circles says there's no way Usmanov is cashing in at Arsenal. Difficult though the relationship is with Kroenke there's a new reality dawning at Arsenal and this has led to a thawing.

"Expect to see significant investment on the pitch and more involvement from Usmanov" were the comments made.

Seems it's just wishful thinking. It will be down to Moshiri – which is a step forward from Kenwright. Not that we've seen anything yet – off the pitch that is. Still as poor and 2nd rate as ever in that regard.

Erik Dols
92 Posted 18/08/2016 at 12:24:52
I like the look of that stadium James, it would need some adaptations to make it a proper football ground but it doesn't have the bowl feeling so many new stadiums have. And I like the outside as well, would befit the docks I guess.

Being from the continent I am surprised that in England standing is still prohibited but I notice that the arguments can get emotional rather soon and don't think that's worth the hassle so I try to stay away from the discussion. But here are my two cents:

In countries like Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands most stadiums have standing areas. Those that don't have standing areas, have designated "fan areas" where you get told that although you purchase a seat, everybody in the area will stand up the entire game. These are all developed countries with almost all new/redeveloped stadiums, those standing areas are as safe as any seated area. I dare even say that a proper standing area is safer than everybody standing in a seated area...

For the atmosphere inside the stadium, standing area seem to have a great effect. Even huge stadiums like Dortmund's (85,000) and München's (75,000) have a great atmosphere, where all-seater stadiums of comparable size in England, Spain and Italy more often than not fall behind on this point.

To me, it's really a no-brainer actually.

Ray Roche
93 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:08:24
There was a piece in some rag or other last week, I stumbled on it via NewsNow, which showed all the grounds in the Premier League in order of age, of course, it wasn't accurate, but if you just fast forwarded through the photos, almost every one looked the same. Hardly any real imagination appears to have gone into the basic design.

OK, there can be some adjustment to relatively small architectural details but the overall impression is one of "sameness". If we DO end up with a new stadium let's have one which stands out from the rest.

Keith Harrison
94 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:16:49
I have honestly just had an 'ITK' text to say Everton have purchased the land. I would absolutely love this to be true.

Hopefully it will be announced officially the day the RS open their new stand.

Dennis Stevens
95 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:19:06
Absolutely, Erik. Standing is quite a safe activity. The whole issue about seating was part of the outcome of the Taylor Report on Hillsborough & a slightly more subtle way of sliding responsibility for that awful & avoidable tragedy from the shoulders of the authorities & on to those of the supporters.
Brent Stephens
96 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:28:10
Ray #93 "If we DO end up with a new stadium let's have one which stands out from the rest."

How about one in which the away section is 3 metres below pitch level? For the "bigger" clubs.

Stan Schofield
97 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:31:23
Julian @83: Well, our new era is a sea change. I lived in Texas last year, Houston. Where are you?
Stan Schofield
98 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:39:18
Dennis @95: Yes, all-seating was basically a knee-jerk reaction from the government to Hillsborough. There's no reason why stadiums couldn't have a mix of standing and seating, given that they can be designed accordingly and with acceptable safety.
Chris Williams
99 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:49:47
Tommy,

The Royal Blue Mersey Stadium.

Matt Traynor
100 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:50:27
Ray #88 I know it can be done safely. Was done for many years. As with any major disaster, there were a series of failures that culminated in one big tragedy.

I didn't know about the RS standing on the Kop. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised either. Personally I'd be in favour of the safe standing areas a la Germany (and I'm sure Celtic did the same) with the rails that can have seats re-installed easily for Champions League games where it's a competition requirement.

Erik Dols
101 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:55:48
I realise the ban on standing areas is a knee-jerk reaction on Hillsborough, but even then: Belgium never banned them and had Heysel. I could give you some examples of stadium disasters involving standing areas in various countries on the continent. But on the continent, hardly anyone blamed standing as such as the culprit. A combination of hooliganism, poor crowd control and terrible stadium design were the factors.

With hooliganism being virtually non-existent in stadiums these days side note: how quickly did that disappear from inside the stadiums? Still surprises me to this day, for me it felt like it just vanished overnight crowds being monitored and controlled far better by new technologies and stadiums being designed far better to manage with big crowds, especially the new stadiums, there is really no reason to ban standing.

But I realise I'm preaching to the choir. I would love it if Everton was allowed to do a pilot on a big standing area behind one of the goals in a new stadium. Think it would do wonders for the atmosphere.

Erik Dols
102 Posted 18/08/2016 at 13:58:05
Matt (#100) I guess the UEFA requirement is due to England banning it and a reaction on Heysel (which of course was "their" game). If England would allow standing again, I wouldn't be surprised if the UEFA would follow soon.
Ray Roche
103 Posted 18/08/2016 at 14:38:18
Brent Stephens #96

Excellent idea! "3 metres below pitch level"? How about 3 m below Mersey high tide level with culverts to and from the river to feed their under ground stand. See how big they are then. Or we could have a sprinkler system so that it pisses down on them for the entire match.

Matt#100.
Agreed.

Stephen Davies
104 Posted 18/08/2016 at 14:43:25
Strong rumours land has been purchased.
Hearing Bramley Moor Dock
Lenny Kingman
105 Posted 18/08/2016 at 14:47:16
㿀 million is a bargain price to invest in the new dawn. Its not rocket science and the long suffering blues fans are ready for lift off. Commit as soon as possible and lets not have another dream dashed in a long winded battle like the Kings.

Now is the time when Everton fc come out of the dark age and reach for the stars. A long time coming but the club have men of ambition and cash and that is a good combination. Particularly when you have the reins of such a historic entity in the beautiful game.

So let's get that land for the price of a couple of premier league players yearly salaries and get building. The cornerstone is on me.

Stan Schofield
106 Posted 18/08/2016 at 14:51:03
Erik @101: Exactly, the government response was knee-jerk, i.e. not well thought-out, more political than any proper consideration of sensible engineered measures to improve safety. Need to get back to standing areas.
Ray Roche
107 Posted 18/08/2016 at 14:57:56
Stephen Davies #104

Looking at Google Earth there doesn't seem to be enough room at Bramley Moor to build a stadium and there appears to be a new development under construction when the photos were taken. Trafalgar Dock appears to have a lot of room..

Terence Tyler
108 Posted 18/08/2016 at 15:10:01
Ray. Not sure about that, maybe the dock water area would be filled in, which would hugely increase its footprint?
Julian Wait
109 Posted 18/08/2016 at 15:11:05
@Stan #97 - I live in central Austin
Ray Said
110 Posted 18/08/2016 at 15:13:04
Just a thought but it its possible that the land purchase at Bramley Moor Dock may be linked to the new ferry terminal for the Isle of Man boat?

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/will-manx-government-pay-for-liverpool-landing-stage-1-7881810

Iain Johnston
111 Posted 18/08/2016 at 15:20:37
I've always thought the area was Trafalgar Dock with both Clarence graving docks filled in.
John Raftery
112 Posted 18/08/2016 at 15:24:17
Key words in the article are 'no confirmation that Peel Holdings would be prepared to sell'. To state the obvious they might well prefer to be our landlord and charge us annual rent. At the moment the 㿀m is no more than a speculative 'what if' figure.

As for the stadium itself we must aim high with a 60,000 capacity. It must be state of the art but there is no reason why it should not include a safe standing area in line with the current German model. A retractable roof would address the concerns about prevailing north west winds which frequently reach gale force along the river front.

Transport considerations are mistakenly often secondary when new stadiums are being planned. The huge advantage of this site is its proximity to the city but thought would need to be given to car parking provision including a park and ride facility capable of supporting a 60,000 capacity.

As for the current facelift at Goodison, I heard it had run into some issues concerning the external cladding. That is not entirely surprising given the age of some of the material.

Gerry Quinn
113 Posted 18/08/2016 at 16:54:19
What I'd give to have have a Stadium like the one here in Houston...

https://nrgpark.com/nrg-stadium

Eric Holland
114 Posted 18/08/2016 at 17:15:23
If it is Bramley moor dock then what I heard about filling the 2 docks in could be correct.
Paul Turner
115 Posted 18/08/2016 at 17:46:22
If Trafalgar Dock, the canal would have to be incorporated somehow... maybe a tunnel.
James Hughes
116 Posted 18/08/2016 at 18:01:01
When we move there, not if (being Positive) can they move The Winslow to the docks as well
Stan Schofield
117 Posted 18/08/2016 at 18:08:31
Gerry @113: Yes, great stadium. I wonder how many Evertonians there are in Texas?! See Julian @109.
Keith Harrison
118 Posted 18/08/2016 at 19:15:01
Seconded, James. Re-build brick by brick.
James Marshall
119 Posted 18/08/2016 at 19:25:45
Gary@90

Here's a Link where the rumour originated in regard to the Lucas Oil Stadium whisper

Lukas Polster
120 Posted 18/08/2016 at 22:28:34
I do like the stadium in Indianapolis, it is much bigger than our stadion in Vienna although I doubt it has the atmosphere (nowhere does).

I think if the rail seating at Celtic is a success other SPL will follow and surely then is only a matter of time before EPL does; I hope so... I would love Everton to have noise like at Rapid.

Kevin Kolasinski
122 Posted 19/08/2016 at 03:11:16
$20 million with new tv money is like $5 to you and I think it's a no-brainer... Lucas Oil Field... beautiful and has a lot of windows for natural light and during day games that is wonderful. The crowd is loud too.
Peter Barry
123 Posted 19/08/2016 at 05:17:53
£20 million is small beer compared to the total cost of a Stadium so don't mess this up again Everton.
Peter Lee
124 Posted 19/08/2016 at 09:15:09
Some years ago the cost of a new stadium was put at £10,000 per seat. Liverpool's spend of £100m for 8000 seats seems to suggest that this is still more or less true. No one from the owner's stable has suggested that he is prepared to fund a £500m stadium. Can anyone explain why he would?

That said my second point is superfluous. A dockside site would be a nightmare, especially for night games. Anyone trying to get near the city when there is an event at the Arena will know what I mean. Car traffic, instead of being close to the ring road and fast routes out along the East Lancs and the other radial routes, would have to trundle through Walton or Anfield or the city itself to escape. Anyone crossing the river would be no worse off though. Could be a lifeline for the ferries if they build a landing stage outside the stadium and buy a redundant aircraft carrier.

Gary Hughes
125 Posted 19/08/2016 at 10:02:34
Thanks James. Like all the cloak and dagger talk it sorts of lends the story a bit more credence. Fingers crossed it all comes off.
Paul Hughes
126 Posted 19/08/2016 at 11:20:03
Peter (124), I agree that driving/parking are a potential nightmare, but that is the flip-side of a (more or less) city centre location.
But according to that logic, Kirkby would have been ideally sited, close to East Lancs, M67 and M62, and we all know our views on that one.
The key is ensuring there are, by virtue of the city location, plenty of public transport options, and late evening rail services out to suitably scoped park and ride facilities, say, at Liverpool South Parkway or Aintree
Ray Roche
127 Posted 19/08/2016 at 11:43:50
Years ago we used to get a bus to Old Swan and then get a football special bus straight to Goodison which dropped us off by the Anfield Road Cemetery in Priory Road. I don't know if this sort of system still runs but it was pretty effective with 50-60,000 gates so this "problem" is clearly not insurmountable. Just need plenty of buses.
Erik Dols
128 Posted 19/08/2016 at 11:54:22
It wouldn't be the first stadium in the world in or near a city centre...
Steve Jones
129 Posted 19/08/2016 at 12:03:21
Its not going to be good for driving in at the docklands site so the answer is don't drive. For a venue seating 50k+ you're not going to prioritise private cars as a transport option anyway.

As noted the river is going to be right there. Park and Rides could be buses on the Liverpool side or ferries from two sites on the Wirral side. Easy to see how ferries could even drop off/collect on the stadium site directly.

Sandhills station is a 20 minute walk. Lime Street is only a 35-40 minute walk.

Hard to imagine a site with more diverse transport options to get into.

Peter Lee
130 Posted 19/08/2016 at 12:15:14
Only a short while since posting but nobody has given a reason for Mr Moshiri spending half a billion on a stadium. Remember that Liverpool 1 only cost a billion so for a businessman a stadium isn't the best use of money.

The problem with waterside development as proposed is that you only have access from one side. Arsenal is a bit like that and, despite having tube lines and rail connections it's a nightmare to access, and yes, I know that it's isolated on one side by a rail line.

Middlesbrough is another example of waterside development that is difficult to access and leave, and it has the benefit of loads of car-parking and an expressway within half a mile. It's also in the middle of a drinking desert, as would be the case with the docks here, meaning that there would be likely to be a concentration of punters arriving around 30 minutes prior to k.o. The club would hope that people might arrive earlier and drink in the ground but, other than Newcastle, where I had a passable pint of Guinness once, most of the beer in football grounds is poor and over-priced.

Posters talk of the authorities working with the club. Well their record so far is grim. Anyone from the Wirral will know that night-time tunnel closures cause chaos and I dread to think how the closure of the Wirral Line access to the city will work out after Christmas.

The old soccer specials were great but that was when most people used public transport and other means to get to the match. The soccerbus works well currently because the journey time is short and a few buses making rapid runs can shift lots of fans at an economic cost. Longer distances to travel in traffic are not likely to do so. What do people pay for the bus service to the game from places like Ellesmere Port? Anyone know?

Finally, anyone remember the people who would mind your bike in their backyard during the game for 3d?

Erik Dols
131 Posted 19/08/2016 at 12:32:52
Moshiri won't spend half a billion on the stadium, it's that simple Peter. It will be part of a stadium complex project with commercial property attached to it or something like that. I could imagine Everton being asked to invest 100-200 million into the project and if that means we're entitled to certain revenues then Moshiri might find that investment a wise decision. May be Moshiri will finance the whole project and put in half a billion, I don't know. But if he does so it will most certainly be for more than just a stadium and a fan shop.

Bob Parrington
132 Posted 19/08/2016 at 13:02:43
Big picture thouhts! Moshiri is fundamentally a businessman, not an Everton fan! Yes/no?He likes Everton for a few reasons that include the chance to make money. Yes/no?
Would he take up a lease from Peel for a new stadium? Yes/no/
Would he see the bigger picture? Yes/no?
Would the bigger picture include the whole development of the dockland including the stadium? Yes/no?
Would this scenario be positive for our Everton? Yes/no?
Any takers on the thought process?
Brent Stephens
133 Posted 19/08/2016 at 13:21:00
Bob #132...
"Moshiri is fundamentally a businessman, not an Everton fan! Yes/no?"
Fundamentally a businessman. Not an Everton fan on buying shares. Possibly converts to a real Everton fan.

"He likes Everton for a few reasons that include the chance to make money. Yes/no?"
Probably wants to make money. Possibly wants at least not to lose money. This might be (also) a vanity project.

"Would he take up a lease from Peel for a new stadium? Yes/no?"
Possibly.

"Would he see the bigger picture? Yes/no?"
Probably. Whatever the bigger picture is (assume strategic vision).

"Would the bigger picture include the whole development of the dockland including the stadium? Yes/no?"
Probably, if that's important to his own objectives.

"Would this scenario be positive for our Everton? Yes/no?"
Potentially yes. Potentially no.

Steve Jones
134 Posted 19/08/2016 at 14:08:47
Peter 130

Ellesmere Port question why would you get a bus?. Train straight through to Lime St or Sandhills and its a short walk or get off at Woodside and get on a ferry.

If you absolutely couldnt handle not driving then you head down the M53 to Seacombe and park up at the ferry terminal there. Either way theres only a problem if you try and contrive one.

Sure the Riverside Stadium in Middlesborough is close to a river, but, that is where the similarity ends to what is possible in the north docks. The Tees doesnt have a pre-existing ferry infrastructure with a motorway network right behind it like exists on the Wirral side of the Mersey.

Likewise, the mersey stadium is going to be incorporated into a wider leisure, tourism, business and residential development in the surrounding area. It will be a far removed experience from the traditional matchday bevvies down the Winslow etc, but, to get a true iconic stadium on the waterfront skyline I think most Evertonians would take the trade off.

There are no insurmountable problems with any of the factors you mention. Its not a one-sided stadium because we use our river. Our docklands are being revitalised not stuck out at arms length and, if the stories are to be believed, part of Moshiri's deal in coming in was to enable the stadium project.

Ray Roche
135 Posted 19/08/2016 at 14:20:29
Steve, you're right, and with a bit of foresight a ferry terminal could be built for match days and this would/could be a shot in the arm for the Ferry service. Great way to go the match, a ferry right to the stadium. I'm also sure it could somehow be incorporated into the tourist trade especially with the number of cruise liners rolling up these days.
Steve Smith
136 Posted 19/08/2016 at 14:45:01
Financing a new stadium.
Maximise capacity
Maximise event days. This may involve investment in durable pitch surfaces
Generate premium income through club seats and boxes
Optimise non-gate sports income related to hospitality, concessions, ground sponsorship, advertising and parking
Diversify operations to provide a 365 days a year income - such as hotels, conferences etc.
Money back swiftly and ongoing revenue streams for the long term.
Paul Kossoff
137 Posted 19/08/2016 at 15:27:27
I would just like us to buy the land, don't care how long it takes for the new stadium to be built 'within reason,' that's a start, and knowing we will have a dockland stadium would be fantastic for us.

When you think we spent 㾹 mllion on Niasse, a complete disaster, then 㿀 million to guarantee our new ground is nothing.

Paul Norman
138 Posted 19/08/2016 at 15:53:11
I'm sure I've seen this posted before, but this looks like an exciting option for a stadium, for me we should be going bold on the stadium design, so that create something architecturally significant on the city's heritage skyline.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/01/could-suprastadio-put-chelsea-liverpool-and-tottenham-to-shame-w/

Jay Wood
139 Posted 19/08/2016 at 16:39:43
Paul @ 138. Unfortunately, your link is directed back at this post for some reason. I think this us what you want to share.

Link

This would be an iconical standout stadium I would love to see, should the pipe dream ever be fulfilled. Play the short 30 second video to get a clear idea of the innovative concept.

Paul Norman
140 Posted 19/08/2016 at 17:07:31
Yes Jay, that's what I incompetently tried to link to! That would be amazing, and looks like a blank canvas to give it the outer shell it would deserve... we can but dream!
Brent Stephens
141 Posted 19/08/2016 at 17:15:09
Wow, Jay. I like the suprastadio. So compact.

We could have all those who get nosebleeds at height being allocated seats in the top tier and with the away fans immediately below. They'd be wondering where all that blood came from.

Steve Jones
142 Posted 19/08/2016 at 20:58:39
Not sure about that suprastadio we want something iconic and striking but not something that is so 'out there' it overshadows rest of the waterfront. As the RBM link notes the stadium has to be sympathetic to the old skyline to some degree.

In simple engineering terms the higher you build the deeper you're sinking foundations as well. Obviously there have been tall buildings along the dock frontage, but, not where we are looking around Trafalgar dock from memory.

Plus, if the article is to be believed, we'll be revisiting the 'Football Quarter' concept...just somewhere that tourists might actually want to go...and removing the distasteful red element!. That means scaling the site to fit hotel and leisure elements as well as the stadium. Something similar to a scaled down, 50k seater, Neuvo Mestella or Allianz type design would likely tick all the boxes.

...and I'd settle for that.

Phil Bellis
143 Posted 19/08/2016 at 21:23:12
Steve Jones,

"Contrived" seems to me to be the operative word here. Basic project management: identify potential problems and plan ahead to negate them.

The KD cock-up is the biggest EFC regret for me (on a par with selling Bally). To have a stadium on the second most iconic waterfront in the world, come on... go for it!

"How to get to Anfield? Erm... it's a bit out the way, mon brave, but..."

Phil Jeffries
144 Posted 20/08/2016 at 06:11:36
If Moshiri wants the docks, it will be the docks. End of story. He gets what he wants and this 20m figure has appeared because it's obviously been asked of the current owners. Moshiri is in this not just to flex his own muscle after being restrained by Arsenal. He is it to make money and we will be worth at least double if we have a brilliant new stadium and a deent team to play in it. Only time will tell, but I would be extremely surprised if he let 20m get in the way of his plans... IF that is what he wants?
Terence Tyler
145 Posted 20/08/2016 at 10:58:32
Hope it is the docks if we get a new stadium, but won't get to stressed if we end up in the other alternative which is Stonebridge cross. Lets not forget that not to long ago there was a majority vote by fans to move to a new stadium in kirkby. Stonebridge cross is on the same road that Goodison park is built, the A580. and is couple of miles closer to goodison park than that proposed new ground at kirkby would of been. Still fingers crossed for the docks
Ian McDowell
146 Posted 21/08/2016 at 16:10:34
We have just got to get this done and build an iconic stadium on the dockland area. Just watching the build up to the West Ham game. The Olympic stadium looks fantastic.
Colin Glassar
147 Posted 21/08/2016 at 16:18:48
Ian, It will be typical if our lovely neighbours get bought by the Chinese government and they outbid us for a piece of prime dock land to build their own shed there.
Barry McNally
148 Posted 21/08/2016 at 16:27:03
Colin, was thinking the same thing - that would be a right kick in the nads.
Frank Crewe
149 Posted 21/08/2016 at 19:58:18
If we ever do get a new ground I hope it looks nothing like West Ham's bowl. I like this one

http://www.archdaily.com/387797/craiova-football-stadium-proposal-proiect-bucuresti/51b9550cb3fc4b76c100009d-craiova-football-stadium-proposal-proiect-bucuresti-image

Trouble is it only holds 40,000 but I'm sure it could be made bigger. No running track. Crowd right on top of the pitch. Very futuristic look in keeping with the school of science. Probably cost a fortune to build but it would certainly be iconic.

Paul Burns
151 Posted 25/08/2016 at 12:50:17
This is land "appropriated" from the city of Liverpool by central government which disgracefully ended up in the hands of a private company who now have the brass to try selling it back to us.

If it's no longer needed for dock related business, it should be handed back for its initial cost, nothing.

Ralph Basnett
152 Posted 26/08/2016 at 10:09:34
Colin 147, ironically they could be taken over by the chinese and gazump us for the docklands which would only leave us one place to go, our homeland!


Hee Hee...

Barry McNally
153 Posted 10/09/2016 at 10:09:40
Derek Thomas
155 Posted 10/09/2016 at 12:38:27
Like Trevor @14; No to anything with a running track and swerve anything to do with the Commonwealth Games. This is just the rs portion of the Council trying to muddy the waters and somehow get us dragged in with a half arsed WHU /Olympic Stadium enabler...maybe at the 'Free' Crocky site...anything to keep us from getting an Iconic Dockside Stadium. If they're that keen let them knock down their shit hole.

That's if it's all kosher and we're really not going to Crocky...come what may

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