Koeman admits Toffees were totally outplayed at Chelsea

Saturday 5 November 2016  169 Comments  [Jump to last]

Ronald Koeman was forced to acknowledge a superior Chelsea performance after Everton were demolished at Stamford Bridge but he also couldn't hide his disappointment with his own players.

Eden Hazard led the way in tearing the Toffees apart by scoring the opening goal, adding the fourth and then forcing Maarten Stekelenburg into a save that he could only deposit into the lap of Pedro who made it 5-0 with 25 minutes to go.

And the Toffees could have been beaten more heavily had Victor Moses not hit the post in the first half and both Stekelenburg and Ashley Williams not intervened on a couple more occasions late on.

Koeman admitted that the game was effectively over at 2-0, the two-goal burst for Antonio Conte's men giving them the confidence to go on and steam-roller Everton over the next 45 minutes' play.

"[Chelsea] played very good football," a shocked Koeman told BT Sport after the final whistle, "but I expected more from my team. It was a big difference in every aspect of football.

"It was not about the system, it was a difference on the pitch. They showed us how to press, how you need the quality on the ball, the movement and the mentality really to win the game.

"That was the difference, not the system, because with five defenders we controlled it OK but after 2-0 it was over. They scored five times; a high score but, really, totally deserved.

"Maybe it looks like they were more aggressive. At 2-0, that was the difference and it looks like that we don't run but you have to accept sometimes in life your opponent is by far the better team and that was what happened today.

"It is a difficult system to play against, the big difference with Chelsea is they have that winning mentality and, of course, the quality on the ball. They were by too strong for Everton."

 

Reader Comments (169)

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Denis Richardson
1 Posted 05/11/2016 at 19:54:57
The sooner we wipe that farce of a game from memory, the better.

Not a single player came out of that with anything positive. One poxy attempt at goal in the whole match.

Kieran Kinsella
2 Posted 05/11/2016 at 19:58:37
The game is changing and the negative types like Moyes and Mourinho have been found out while more adventurous folks are prospering. The same thing happened in the late 90s as the Keegan/Fergie era emerged and the dour George Graham, Dalglish, Royle era wrapped up.

Koeman today set out the team as if he was Moyes or Mourinho. However he isn't a di-hard defensive type so he can go either way. Hopefully he realizes this and adapts...

Peter Laing
3 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:00:08
Very, very sobering, hard to take any positives from the game but it will serve as a measure as to the task in hand for Moshiri, Koeman and Walsh.

The old insecurities and failings seen under the watch of the previous incumbent – there needs to be a purge of the squad over the next two transfer windows with ruthless execution.

Dan Parker
4 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:04:35
An absolute shower. No-one showed up except Tom Davies. An old, experienced backline that fixed the Martinez leaky defense was exposed for what it is, an old, slow backline. Midfield non-existent and not interested.

Why we're subjected to at least one complete, abject, pathetic performance a season, I don't know. At least teams up for relegation put up a fight. We need a clear-out: Funes Mori, Lennon, Mirallas and more need to go.

Koeman gave Davies a chance; maybe it's now time to start them ahead of some of the fringe first-teamers on the bench.

Ian McDowell
5 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:04:51
I'm with Kieran. I'm sick of hearing possession stats and "let's keep it tight and nick one". No, let's go out there and, when the opposition have the ball, let's press them and force them into errors. When we have it, let's look to create chances and get it forward quickly before the opposition can pull back behind the ball. If that means going Route One or playing patiently, then fine... whatever best suits the situation.

Man City once again found it hard today despite having all the possession again. It means nothing and is a pointless stat.

Dan Parker
6 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:06:13
I don't know if it's our history, mentality or what but we have one good game against a Man City or West Ham Utd and the players and media spend a whole week wanking each other off at how good they are...

Shite. Show it over a whole season, lads – not one game.

John Malone
7 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:21:50
It bothers me that Koeman calls 'us' Everton; surely he should say 'us' or 'we' but he doesn't – he says 'Everton' or 'the team' when describing 'us'!

It worries me that this is just another job for Koeman and the man who should lead by example and should be hurting just as much as 'us' when our team gets beaten is detaching himself from any emotion or allegiance to the club!

I blame the formation he picked and his ridiculous decision to take Oviedo off and play Funes Mori at left back for that result! Granted we have been beaten by a better side, whichever shape we played, but not humiliated in that fashion!

Disgraceful!

Ian McDowell
8 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:25:35
John @ 7. Koeman is here for 3 years max. He is looking for a top job. Champions League football and competing for honours. He is using Everton as a stepping stone like he did Southampton. Unfortunately where we currently are, any top managers or players will be doing the same.
Dan Parker
9 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:27:13
I wonderered whether the players stood off from Chelsea after Coleman escaped punishment early on fearing a retaliatory caution but that's just an excuse.
Les Martin
10 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:28:00
Dont worry, lads... it's a blip, it could have been more!

We lost because we did not have the talent to keep the ball and create.

Sobering... and a long season ahead; the January transfer window will be interesting.

Anthony Hughes
11 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:28:57
"It's a difficult system to play against."

We're paying you £6 million a year to come up with some ideas and motivation and coaching to counter this and not keep carping on about 2 years and multiple transfer windows.

Peter Laing
12 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:31:37
John, I also picked up on Koeman's demeanour – at least he's not blagging like Señor Martinez.
Mike Allen
13 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:34:05
That was as bad as the Liverpool & Sunderland games last season. I never thought I would witness anything like that again.

It's true, we are not blessed with a great deal of talented players and most, if not all, are just not good enough but the absolute minimum requirement is to match the other team for effort.

It looked like we had no talent, no guts, and no pride – getting beat is bad enough but to go down without a fight is unforgivable.

Brian Williams
14 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:42:09
I wouldn't know where to start to be honest. It's as if all the players expected to be beaten and decided not to bother.

Forget about systems, forget about formations, if you have a team that is out-played, out-thought, out-fought... then it doesn't matter what system you play.

Each and every one of those players should take a long hard look at themselves and vow never to let that happen again. Will they? Will they fuck!

James Doran
15 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:43:04
Ian @ 8 – Nail on the head. What I would add is that, if Ronald Koeman doesn't do well at EFC, he won't get the 'big job' he craves; which he will be fully aware of. So, although he may not be intent on falling madly in love with Our Great Club, he will be no less ambitious, professional or demanding whilst he is with us.

I think, once he has been handed the 'warchest' he will have been promised before he signed for us, Ronald Koeman will do us proud.

Bill Gienapp
16 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:44:54
I said before the match that we've played Chelsea pretty tough over the past few seasons and, even if we didn't come away with a win, I was confident we wouldn't make things easy for them.

Uh... whoops?

Ciarán McGlone
17 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:53:00
"It was not about the system..."

What a load of aul bollocks.

James Brand
18 Posted 05/11/2016 at 20:53:55
Just got home don't anyone tell me that there has been an improvement since Martinez!!!

Stop applauding a manager who makes subs in first half!!! It's because he's got his tactics wrong that he and his team has had all week to address!!

Eddie Dunn
19 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:00:26
It appears that we are playing a zonal marking system. Despite being reminded by the BT commentator that we had the second best defensive record in our league, I have watched in horror as our statuesque defenders stand and watch attackers have free headers and shots. At Burnley we saw it; at Man City too; and tonight was a masterclass of it.

Coleman is attracted to the ball, and allows himself to be pulled out of position. This evening, he couldn't help but try to join two centre-backs trying to stop Costa and left his man free to receive the return ball. It is a mistake he makes regularly.

The problem started with our strikers who were hopeless in pressing the likes of Luiz, who seemed to be strolling around on the Copacabana beach. Coleman was having enough trouble trying to contain Hazard single-handed. The midfield was overstretched and Gana's contributions appeared to missed more than anything.

Lukaku just couldn't hold on to the ball and Barry looked like he had never seen a football before. Ross Barkley and Tom Cleverley just ran around and only when Davies came on (and Chelsea eased off) did we see any interaction where we kept the ball for more than a few passes.

Chelsea were on a different level, and it shows that we are a long, long way behind the top sides. Man City should have beaten us by a similar margin and I fear that a Liverpool side that is playing well, will cause us similar problems. Gana's return will help but God help us when the African Cup of Nations begins.

James Brand
20 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:01:49
Things we learned:

1. How much we miss Gueye;

2. New manager but we are still the "nice guys" – yes, you can have the ball and we are going to stand off and watch what you do with it – don't worry, we don't do "pressing";

3. Ross Barkley is a Championship player at best;

4. We are not fooled by our manager making subs in the first half – he got his tactics wrong!! Shame on him for £6m a year:

5. David Luiz must know Lingala!

Peter Fitzpatrick
21 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:03:33
That was absolutely pathetic all round, starting with the plan to hoof the ball to ball to Lukaku or Bolasie whenever we had the ball. We made it easy for average defenders like Cahill, who got dragged all over the place by Rom in the cup game at Goodison.

Using the long ball to relieve pressure is one thing, but if you're on £6million a year and that's all you can come up with, then Moshiri may want to have a word.

It's too easy to blame a team of flakes like Oviedo and Coleman for getting outplayed; Koeman wants to come up with something different the next time we're playing a decent team away from home.

Dereck Harris
22 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:04:43
I have just returned from Stamford Bridge (I live in London). Koeman tried to play five across the back to control Chelsea's width. The opposition were at home and on a winning streak.

If Stekelenburg had played as well as he did at Man City, the double score at 20 and 21 mins would not have happened. The defensive strategy that worked on that occasion (we were lucky?) may have kept us to nil-nil after 60 mins – then bring on the fresh legs and try to nick it.

Given our current squad, I cannot honestly see the creativity in midfield to try any other tactical approach against this standard of opposition. We missed Idrissa Gueye big time and Ross Barkley looked too predictable on the ball.

Variation and courage Ross: run at the opposition occasionally. We played better for 10 mins into the second half, picking up the pace with crisp passing. Then number four went in. End of.

We played badly. Chelsea played with confidence and fluidity. Rom's first touch was crap as is too often the case.

Koeman called it honestly: Chelsea were the better team. They may well win the Premier League this season. Give me Koeman's tactical and analytical rigour any-day over Martinez's enthusiastic and platitudes and hyperbole.

Damian Wilde
23 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:05:06
Just on the train back, walked out at 4-0, to make sure I made the last train.

I said on here after Norwich our season was finished, I got shouted down.

I said last week we weren't great and that a better side would have hammered us, but got shouted down by the 'Ross is class' brigade.

Just call it foresight.

We're a mid-table team. We may beat the likes of West Brom, but the better sides will do us.

Koeman has been shit so far. He messed up big time for the Norwich game.

Three at the back? Cleverley?!? Why? Moyes's Phil Neville... Jeez?! We were set up to scab a draw and invited pressure.

They gave up at 2-0. Disgusting. Some crap players at Everton. Where's the cash, Moshiri??? Valencia on-loan, yes!!!!!

James Doran
24 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:05:45
Does anybody agree that Jags and Gaz Baz appear to have grown really old overnight?

I would like to see Holgate back in, alongside Williams; with Baines or Funes Mori at left-back. Davies deserves a start now.

James Brand
25 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:08:46
Koeman isn't getting paid £6m a year to be "honest!"
Stop the post match interviews and candor and just do your job!!!
I'm not fooled by the "Koeman called it right after the game"
I don't care what he says after the game!!! Just win it!!
Ian McDowell
26 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:10:28
I haven't been impressed at all by Koeman so far. Losing at Bournemouth, Burnley and at home to Norwich, not good enough. Man City away we got battered and were fortunate to get a point.

At least last season when we went to Chelsea and Man City and we had a go and got 2 draws and maybe deserved more. Yes, defensively this season we look better but are we better going forward and keeping the ball? Not by a long way.

We have the 11th highest paid manager in European football. We should expect more.

Jim Hardin
27 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:17:00
"I blame the formation he picked and his ridiculous decision to take Oviedo off and play Funes Mori left-back for that result."

Really, John? So Funes Mori is to blame... or was Oviedo meant to save us if left on? Ridiculous comment.

When Oviedo was taken off, what was the score? Funes Mori was the best of the three backs and didn't fare too badly when out wide. That you didn't comment that Funes Mori and Oviedo should both have been left on, and Jagielka hauled off by the scruff of his neck, makes me wonder what game you watched.

No-one can be beaten 5-0 and come away with any glory, but Funes Mori was the least of the defensive concerns in that game.

Barry Pearce
28 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:18:38
Young Tom Davies played with more energy, passion and aggression when he came on. Hopefully he will get more opportunities.

He can't do any worse than Cleverley. He brings nothing to the team... squad player at best.

Mike Connolly
30 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:28:49
Is Bobby Brown Shoes still in charge? Well, the characteristics are still the same. The players are slow and don't look like they care.

"Chelsea were like Barcelona," the excited commentator exclaimed. However, he could have said the same about Bournemouth.

The truth is we need a good clear out. It's time for the chairman to put his money where his mouth is. I can accept a defeat, even a heavy defeat. But not in the manner we did today, and in front of a big TV audience.

Everton – do the right thing and give our travelling fans their money back.

Steavey Buckley
31 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:34:08
I hope all Evertonians stop requesting a 5-1-1-1-2 formation. The 5-0 result just proves how bad that formation really is.

The Everton team to play in their next match:

A N Other;
A N Other, A N Other, A N Other, A N Other;
A N Other, Gueye, A N Other;
Bolasie, Lukaku, A N Other.

Everton fans may have to wait until next season for eight A N Others to turn up...

James Doran
32 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:38:19
Steavey @ 31, GK+5+1+1+2 = 10, mate.
Gary Reeves
33 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:43:53
There's a complete lack of "personality" in that squad. After watching recent performances, I'm convinced that Rooney (if available in January) would be an absolute no-brainer!
Damian Wilde
34 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:45:40
Koeman:

"It was not about the system – the difference was the mentality to win the game. With five defenders we control it, after 2-0 it was over."

Martinez esque. Ridiculous comments. Buffoon.

Steavey Buckley
35 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:46:20
James, 10 players. It seemed less to me out there today. Most of the team wasted their time today. If Everton played with fewer players they could have had a valid excuse why they lost.
James Doran
36 Posted 05/11/2016 at 21:58:51
Steavey,

How did you edit the formation to make it add up to 10 outfield players mate?

In my eyes, it's simple - unfortunately, we don't have a strong enough squad to consistently compete at the top level.

Steavey Buckley
37 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:07:32
James, the reason why Everton don't have a stronger squad of players is due to one man, the manager. Even during pre-season, the same players who failed last season were still failing. Yet, Koeman decided to stick with them, for this season, and this is how they have rewarded him with more inept performances all season.

Not just the one game today. Why is it Everton fans recognise what players are good and not so, and the manager is the last person to realise?

Grant Rorrison
38 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:11:57
If the squad is suddenly shit then why was Martinez vilified for 'under-achieving' last season?

James Doran
39 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:14:36
Steavey,

Was more money than Koeman spent made available to him (disregarding the money that was made available at the very last minute to buy Sissoko)?

Damian Wilde
40 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:14:56
Grant, Martinez was shit, end of story.
Mike Oates
41 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:17:08
Koeman – "It's not the system, with 5 defenders we were controlling it, until we went 2-0 down."

Really? We were in charge but unfortunately they spoilt it by scoring 2 goals!

Had we ever got out of our own half before they were 2 up? – No. Why were Coleman and Williams left floundering time and time again?? Who was marking who when Hazard or Alonso had the ball???

Chelsea continually exposed the space wide of Williams and Funes Mori with Hazard or Moses, with Coleman and Oviedo 20 yards forward of them!

It was absolutely crass from Koeman – he's been fortunate all season, there have been a number of games we should have been murdered in – Spurs, Man City, West Ham, Stoke... but today was the day he got caught out.

Grant Rorrison
42 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:18:00
Damian (#40). Well he achieved more points in a season than our 'most successful manager of a generation' and got to two semi-finals in one season for the first time in decades.

I don't buy the 'luck of the draw' argument. We got a 'lucky' draw this season and still went out.

Dereck Harris
43 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:19:41
The squad is not shit – it is 7/10 now when it was 6/10 under Martinez. It will be 7.5/10 after the January window and so on...

Players (transfer targets) will see Koeman keeps Everton at 6th, 7th or 8th in the league and will be more inclined to come.

Martinez kept a 6/10 squad in the bottom half go the league. That's the difference. We are making progress.

John Malone
45 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:35:00
Jim (#27), yes really, Jim, really!!

Tell me why you would play a centre-half at full-back when your full-back is fit and playing okay? Why?

Funes Mori is a 6ft-4in ball winner who turns like the F20 bus! Why put him out wide up against Eden Hazard – one the smallest, quickest, trickiest wingers in the world when you already have a small quick nimble left-back on the pitch???

I can't remember if it was the fourth or the fifth goal but all Hazard did was a one-two and run inside and Funes Mori was out the game, leaving Hazard through on goal!

The manager's team selection, approach to the game, and subs were shocking tonight. Going toe-to-toe with an in-form Chelsea side full of quality at their own ground! Very naive from a manager who is supposed to be full of experience!!

And while I'm having a moan, I'll get it off my chest – I don't see what good football Koeman has brought to the team. I sometimes see hard work and a solid defence but not a lot else! We have the same problems in the squad we had under Martinez apart from the fact we don't overplay at the back!

This game won't make or break our season but we have to improve our team in January – something is definitely lacking!

Anthony Hawkins
47 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:43:34
5-0!! Are you kidding me? WTAF?? That's atrocious.

I've only just seen the result and can not believe Chelsea has managed to do that.

Looking at the line-up, WHY were there 5 defenders on the pitch? No wonder there wasn't any outlet to the strikers.

The only thing I can say is I'm extremely disappointed.

Steavey Buckley
49 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:52:35
James, the money for transfers this season is more of a mystery than any novel written by Agatha Christie. Everton fans used to point inside Kenwright's sofa where all the money was.

Now there is a new owner, his money, no doubt, is held electronically. Where? I have no clue.

John Egan
50 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:54:41
Did anybody expect anything different? Just play fucking 4-4-2 and see what happens.... You never know – we might see some football get played.
Patrick Murphy
51 Posted 05/11/2016 at 22:55:37
Steavey (#49),

Perhaps Sir Philip Green has had to use it to pay into the pension fund?

Liam Reilly
53 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:15:15
Only a matter of time before we started hearing about how much better if was with Moyes and Martinez...

Anyone see Koeman's face throughout that game? I suspect we'll see a few games like that...

Lenny Kingman
54 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:15:23
It's okay, everybody, panic over. According to #43 we are making progress. That's reassuring to know.

Unfortunately the downside to this wonderful news could be hammerings in the 9-0 region if, heaven forbid, our form slips back a little.

Eddie Dunn
55 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:21:24
John (#45). Funes Mori is 6ft-3in. Only an inch out!
Peter Fearon
56 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:29:19
Watching that abject capitulation was one of the most humiliating experiences of my adult life. Koeman has changed nothing. I trust our invisible director of football is prepared for a very busy January because we need some creative players who want to play football.

In the meantime, if we can fool anybody into paying more than £30m for Barkley we should take it; start Deulofeu; introduce Bolasie to his team mates – Yanni, Seamus... Seamus, Yanni etc – because they clearly have not met him yet, and give Lukaku a strike partner.

The issue today wasn't simply one of defensive frailty, it was not being able to kick start any kind of credible offensive threat.

Les Netherwood
57 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:37:13
What a bag of shit – the worst performance I have seen for years. Nobody runs at opponents with the ball, it is all pass to the nearest man, and get the ball back at once... then pass sideways again and again and again.

The formation at the back was hopeless, no midfield at all, Barkley is too slow and does nothing, Cleverley is not good enough and Lukaku has no ball control.

Are we any better than under Bobby Brown Shoes?? It does not look like it... we could be in for another poor season.

Ken Williams
58 Posted 05/11/2016 at 23:47:23
What has happened to Everton?

We know Chelsea are a decent side, but we were absolute shite.

Dave Older
59 Posted 05/11/2016 at 00:11:15
A few weeks ago after we lost to Bournemouth, I said let's not hit the panic button just yet.

After that performance, my hand is one inch from pushing the big, red, button marked "P".

This result is a wake up call for every Toffee. Koeman needs to have a serious talk with the squad, and himself!!

Brendan Fox
60 Posted 06/11/2016 at 00:16:58
Twats – every single player to take the field, showed no fight whatsoever. They should hang their heads in shame but doubt they will do.

Pitiful excuse for a performance. Got schooled today but can do and must do better.

Damian Wilde
61 Posted 06/11/2016 at 00:22:41
Peter, £30 mill for Barkley... 😃😃😃 Good one!
Mark Wilson
62 Posted 06/11/2016 at 01:07:14
Chelsea have recovered from an iffy start and, yes, they have done that well. Of course they played some outstanding football today but, if you honestly think that totally gifting them two goals in a minute or so didn't impact the game, then you're watching football in a very different way to me.

Our bang-average No 2 keeper was abysmal. Yes, abysmal. If you concede goals like those first two so quickly, then five-nil isn't an unlikely outcome.

So here's the first simple statement: we haven't got one Premier League goalkeeper at the club... and whose bloody fault is that? Moshiri? I don't think so. Koeman has completely ballsed up in thinking Stekelenburg is good enough and I don't for one second think we couldn't have persuaded Joe Hart to come to our club. Poor judgement by Koeman and his staff.

The manager's post match comments are a mix of the reasonable and nonsense. To claim that the system wasn't at fault is the nonsense, or at least partly so... It meant we had three centre-backs, two of whom are slow to turn and hate players running at them. Jags has had a terrible, terrible, season by the high standards that must be demanded of him. Williams has had a couple of decent games but frankly I'm so disappointed; I expected a lot more.

With three centre-backs at the back, your full-backs must be able to get forward or you immediately settle for a deeper and deeper position – and that's exactly how the game went from the start.

Chelsea were gifted possession by the lack of pressure, and a truly dire set of "performances" from Barry and the just unbelievably bad Cleverley. Yes, Chelsea looked world beaters, and yes, they are on a brilliant run, but they were allowed so much of the ball, it wasn't hard to look like Barca at their best. We didn't compete from the first whistle and that in part was due to the way the team was set up.

Barkley wasn't great – in keeping with this pathetic performance – but it's just daft not to acknowledge it... stick him wide left and he's a disaster, he wasn't in the game.

Koeman has a right to expect better – more fight, more effort, and, well, just performances that amount to even half of what they should be. Instead he's picking players in the midst of really poor form – like Jags, Cleverley, Coleman, and Mirallas, I'm sorry to say, when he gets on. And frankly Bolasie is great one game and missing the next. Lukaku will score goals however lazy you want to say he is but he needs service and it's not happening.

We'd have lost today, regardless,; I get that. But a goal keeping disaster and a shambolic organisation helped create a terrible, shamefully uncompetitive performance that just ensured humiliation. Koeman is meant to be a top manager isn't he? Well he's about to have to earn that £6M a year before January 1st, else a poor run could become a dramatic slide into a bottom-half dogfight. You can dismiss that as OTT but that "performance" today screamed players not fighting for the team and manager, even at this stage of a season, it was that bad.

Dick Fearon
63 Posted 06/11/2016 at 01:14:32
After decades of defeatist managers, knives to gunfights and all that, it looks like we landed another.

Rafa ,who I put forward for the job could not have been worse and perhaps a lot better. Because of his RS connection, he was voted down by Twebbers.

For similar silly insular reasons, many would knock back Rooney. I challenge anyone to name a single Everton player in last night's debacle who would be half as good as Wayne.

Nicholas Ryan
64 Posted 06/11/2016 at 01:22:22
So, how exactly is the chubby Edam-chewer, any better than Captain Chorizo?!
Colin Metcalfe
65 Posted 06/11/2016 at 01:56:01
Liam (#53), tell you what – I can't recall a worse performance than that under Martinez, can you?
Jimmy Sørheim
66 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:07:30
The problem today was the terrible defensive tactic and game plan that looked practiced to death.

However, the players looked like bewildered monkeys that played football for the very first time.

I fear that last season destroyed the belief of the players, and they now know for certain that they are just not good enough.

We need to stop living in hope, nothing has changed as of yet because the squad is bereft of top quality players.

There has to be a clear-out of the fringe players, we need real quality players who still have their pride.

The only players with any pride in this team are the youngsters, and only Gueye as I see it.

Tony Hill
67 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:09:38
The good thing about a dreadful defeat like that one is that it gives space to look at ourselves realistically.

I have concluded, above all, that we need a proper captain. Jagielka must go now. Can you ever see this well-meaning drip leading us anywhere but nowhere? Get rid, Ronald, because Phil smells of losing.

Who next? Coleman – big risk, but right age, nasty streak and would rise to it. God knows, we need to act.

Andrew Keatley
68 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:12:23
We are so slow and predictable when in possession. There is very little incisive or adventurous running off the ball, which puts pressure on the player in possession, who invariably takes the solitary option back or sideways, allowing the other team to stay organised defensively and/or aggressively hunt the player on the ball.

Chelsea, on the other hand, were quick to find space all over the pitch, quick to move the ball to the player in space (often just one-touch passing), and punished our passive zonal marking system time and time again.

I think many of us might be keen to see Tom Davies given a start in the next game alongside Gana – especially with Barry suspended. He certainly seems to have something about him.

Mick Davies
69 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:24:35
"That system is very hard to play against"... "The manager brought a winning mentality to the players"

Two quotes that prove to me we have a clueless manager. He inherited a well drilled Southampton side and didn't have to do much to keep them on an even keel. He buggers off after 2 years and inherits a decent Premier League squad that just need to be coached properly, instilled with the winning mentality and made to run.

He added a couple of players and said he didn't need anyone else (what was the Sissoko farce about?). He gets the side winning a few games, confidence is rising, so he changes it for the League Cup. All that goes out of the window as the fragility of our underworked weak players is once more exposed.

He then gets lucky against Man City and to an extent West Ham Utd. Robles plays well, we keep a clean sheet, so for the hardest game of the season so far, without arguably our most valuable player, he changes the keeper, brings in the discredited Jagielka, and even changes the system the players are 'doing OK' with!!!

Now there are some on here saying how well Chelsea played, but it was more to do with how we didn't play. Please anyone who has any of this season's games on tape, just watch how our players stand there when we are in possession (with the occasional exception of Coleman), so there is no-one in space to pass to; when defending, watch how our players just stare at the ball, unaware of players running inside them, leaving them stationary. This complete lack of movement has been going on for 2 years now and if Koeman can't see this, and how lazy the forward players are, he has no right to be in charge of Everton FC.

I was thrilled to see how well we played under Unsworth & Royle for that one game: we showed more passion that day than all this season, and to overlook Unsworth in favour of a manager with no English league/cup success was pointless.

If things don't change (ie, certain players; failed systems; lack of fitness and movement) then I don't think he deserves to be in such a well paid and high profile position.

Patrick Murphy
70 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:34:32
It's now operatoin Unsworth is it? Well that should be fun for a little while at least...

If a high-profile manager like Koeman is unable to attract the sort of talent to the club that we all crave, then what chance does Unsy have of attracting those sort of players?

I'm not sure about Koeman either, but I haven't had enough time to see what he can or will do for Everton. I'm sure a certain theatre impressario will be cheering from the rooftops that he has his finger on the Evertonian pulse if he reads the threads on here as it would seem that he shares the same vision of the club that some supporters have – let's do everything on the cheap, don't spend too much and promote the youth players who we can flog elsewhere when they are proven in the top-flight.

I'm not saying that some of the younger players don't deserve their chance but remember what happened to Villa when their owner stopped buying players for large fees and promoted the youngsters – I'm inclinced to say "be careful what you wish for!"

Mick Davies
71 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:51:51
Patrick @ 70, what players? He couldn't get Sissoko, a player who Spurs fans are totally underwhelmed with.

It's not a question of getting players in; it's what you do with them. If we can only attract an unproven manager, why not stick with the men we know could lift the side?

If we'd have brought in a proven winner, yes. But for the salary Everton pay, I'd have expected someone who knows a lot more about the game than us fans do.

Walsh as DoF? Yes; another Moyes or Martinez? No!

Fran Mitchell
72 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:55:03
We got trashed by Chelsea. If anything, it is just proof of how long we have to go. The loss of a key player and we don't have cover. Our first team isn't as great as we believe... they can play top class but it is not their norm.

Meanwhile, Chelsea have Willian, Fabregas and others who cost £30 million plus on the bench. Now is not the time to question the manager... that is just bullshit. He will need time, we will need patience.

Tony Hill
73 Posted 06/11/2016 at 03:00:46
Yes, Andrew (68), I would now regard Davies as a starter, a serious talent, ahead of Barry who has, for the most part, been excellent and who owes us nothing.

Following my usual arc, I have decided, after initial despair, that this shitty moment might be a pivot for us. Take the hammering; it's a time for hard heads, we must all now see this season as a rebuild. Many have paid lip service to that, but let's now mean it. Get it right in January, and in the summer, with transfers and we can enjoy the ride.

I still think it'll be 9th or 10th, and I still worry about our Board at a fundamental level, but I retain hope that Koeman just cannot afford to mess it up and that a colossal egotist like he is will eventually do it on his own account, and so for us. I will be praying.

Ave atque vale.


Loko Sanchez
74 Posted 06/11/2016 at 03:10:10
"What a manager!" Hahahahaha.

You changed a keeper who kept a clean sheet in previous game, bringing in Jags... (the list goes on and on).

Players not given a decent run in team: Lennon, Davies, Robles, Niasse, Holgate.

Players being picked on reputation above form; good for morale.

"What a manager!"

Mike Dolan
75 Posted 06/11/2016 at 03:13:25
It was obviously not our greatest performance today but for god's sake, let's have a little perspective.

Everton are barely into the first stage of what was always going to be at least a two-year rebuilding process. Sometimes, like today, it's painful to see how far we have to go but some very fundamental improvements have been made to our club already and we should always keep them in mind.

Perhaps the biggest change is that we have a world class coach who knows how a world class club should be run. No more of this 'plucky little Everton' bullshit. When players like Barkley are continually left lacking any clue of how to even get near the ball, then they are not far from the door.

In Gana we have a great dynamo of a player who might be the only experienced player on our books who could play in any elite team. He would have at the very least stopped Chelsea from strolling around with the ball today.

Tom Davies was hugely impressive today I thought. By far the most impressive Everton player; he is going to be special. I would love to see him and Gana in midfield soon.

So come on, lads, 1-0 is actually the same as 5-0 – its three points lost that this team at the beginning of the season was not capable of winning. And we didn't.

Everton have not had a creative midfielder since Arteta left.

Mick Davies
76 Posted 06/11/2016 at 03:24:11
Mike @ 75, "Perhaps the biggest change is that we have a world class coach who knows how a world class club should be run. No more of this 'plucky little Everton' bullshit."

Really? Is that why our players are running through brick walls; is that why we went to Chelsea with an attacking mentality and no fear?

I think the best thing you say is "let's have a little perspective."

Bill Gienapp
77 Posted 06/11/2016 at 03:48:04
It was a terrible performance, there's no denying that, but the hyperbole on here is out of control, as usual. We were lucky not to be "murdered" by West Ham and Stoke? Are you kidding me? What's next - "If you discount Lukaku's hat trick, we would have drawn Sunderland!" "If the match ended after ten minutes, we'd have lost to West Brom!" "If Stoke scored ten goals instead of zero goals, they'd have beaten us 10-1!"

And then of course there's the hysterical and all-too-predictable screeds against Koeman. I'm glad to see the calls for patience lasted all of eleven matches. Yes, by all means, let's sack him right now and hand the job to Unsworth on the basis of one meaningless match in which we beat up on a demoralized Norwich side that had already been relegated and barely showed up. Back away from the keyboard and sober up, please.

These knee-jerk, week-to-week, match-to-match "hot takes" are pointless. We won't be able to honestly evaluate the club's progress (or lack thereof) until the end of the season, so you might as well save your energy, rather than breathlessly declaring Stek "world-class" one week and then dismissing him as "total rubbish" the next.

Bill Gienapp
78 Posted 06/11/2016 at 04:02:24
And another thing – trying to dismiss Koeman's EPL credentials by claiming he simply rode Pochettino's coattails is a lame argument that also happens to be completely erroneous.

That Southampton squad was effectively gutted the summer he arrived (and suffered key losses after his first season as well). He was the one who brought in Mane, Pelle, Tadac, Forster, Van Dijk, Long, etc... so at least get your facts straight.

David Barks
79 Posted 06/11/2016 at 04:24:08
Never understood the argument that progress can only be judged at the end of the season. In no other walk of life is that used as an excuse. It's a weak excuse served up by people who have no real basis for their argument. We make judgements of progress along the way all the time.

In business you have quarterly reviews of financials to constantly see how you are trending to meet your annual goals. In medicine if you're battling an illness you do constant rechecks to check the progress and shift treatment if needed. The stock market constantly performs analysis and judgement. Or do you watch a crashing stock and just sit on it, give it a full year?

Not one person has called for him to be sacked, yet that's the straw man argument being made by those criticizing our criticisms. What many of us are saying is, we don't see a clear philosophy from this manager; nor has anyone at the club clearly stated what the club's ambition is this season, or next.

The tactics set forth by his manager against Man City and today Chelsea were pathetic and far too defensive. A sad throwback to the days where we paid the opposition far too much respect and listened to Moyes speak glowingly about the occasional draw, but more often the "unlucky" loss after our defense eventually was broken.

Many of us judged the past transfer window as not good enough. So I will not let excuses like a lack of players and not being able to attract top talent as an excuse. Especially when those same people speak out of both sides of their mouth, one second saying our poor league finish of 11th is why we can't attract players so we need to wait until next year, but then saying we shouldn't expect a high league finish because the manager needs time to build his squad with the talent he needs.

So we need to accept low league positions because we couldn't attract quality players this summer, but somehow we'll be able to attract those quality players in the future despite a low league position that we should accept under the new manager but was justification for the prior manager to be sacked.

Brian Porter
80 Posted 06/11/2016 at 06:31:08
I'm seriously fed up with all the talk of a two-year rebuilding project.

In any business, before you can successfully rebuild, you must first consolidate your existing resources. So far, Koeman has singularly failed to do this.

If he's as good as we were led to believe, he should by now have been able to instil some basic principles of fighting for every ball, playing for each other, and rewarding effort with starting roles.

For example: Robles kept a clean sheet last week and was rewarded with the bench again. Jagielka and Williams both looked and played like veterans yesterday. And the best of our centre-backs on the day, Funes Mori, was moved to left back, totally exposing us in the middle of defence.

I don't want to go into a five-page tactical analysis, but I am becoming worried that Koeman is not the man-motivator we thought he was.

As for January signings, I fail to see how he is going to attract good players to the club he always refers to in the third person, as someone else has picked up on. He seems devoid of any emotion or passion for the club and that attitude is hardly going to work very well in selling the club to potential new players.

At least the previous incumbent, useless though he was, had bought into the club and showed some enthusiasm for the job. Koeman seems flat and two-dimensional as a manager and I worry about whether he and our new Director of Football, the anonymous Steve Walsh, even talk to each other, let alone work together.

I hope I'm wrong but worry is beginning to replace early optimism. For £6m a year, I think we were entitled to see some early signs of overall improvement, some consolidation of the resources at his disposal by moulding them into a team unit that could be added to over time and gradually improved. So far, that just hasn't happened... and I worry if it ever will.

Paul Tran
81 Posted 06/11/2016 at 07:13:05
I'm sure I'm not the first to say this; that was a performance that suggested to me that all is not well behind the scenes.
Denver Daniels
82 Posted 06/11/2016 at 07:21:30
A bit early to be writing Koeman off but it looks like we not really getting value for money with the huge salary he's on. Maybe we should have gone for a cheaper option.

I see one of the leading contenders to replace Roberto, Lucien Favre, is working miracles in France with Nice top of Ligue 1. He would have been an interesting option.

Ernie Baywood
83 Posted 06/11/2016 at 07:45:02
I can't get into criticism of individuals, selections or tactics... no individual performance or error of judgement should have that much of an impact.

We lost every duel. Covered less ground. Were lower in intensity. Couldn't pass the ball. A collective dog of a day, compounded by a mental collapse and an opponent who was incredible.

Can't learn anything specific from that... you just have to judge how they respond.

And it's a fucking international break again.

Kim Vivian
84 Posted 06/11/2016 at 08:19:15
Awful. Just awful watching that. Absolutely shafted us.

I thought before the game the best we could hope for was to grab a draw, so at least we only 'dropped' a point!

Tim Kells
85 Posted 06/11/2016 at 08:51:44
One game doesn't define a season but that performance was gutless, spineless and down-right embarrassing. Like all Blues, I had been looking forward to the game all week and then, to be served up that dross has ruined my weekend.

I'll reserve my judgement on Koeman until I see the reaction in the next game and he has a transfer window in which he doesn't have to sell to buy. The supposed £100m warchest will, I'm sure, just disappear and be added to the long list of all the other lies and debacles we've had over the years.

Farrell Iveagh
86 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:09:40
We need to take a good look at Koeman... great player back in his day does not mean great manger.

Yes, he has won trophies in Holland but that is worse than the Scottish Leauge. We have only ever won anything with Evertonians at the helm – he is not one, nor a good manger.

Rhino should've got the job, but we are Everton aren't we...

Eddie Dunn
88 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:18:53
Just read some comments from Keith Wood, the former Ireland Rugby player on Ireland's historic victory over the All Blacks. He said..

"From the first second the game started, Ireland just attacked. They were not conservative – we all get frustrated when Ireland play conservatively – but they weren't even vaguely. They were so accurate, so unbelievably aggressive, but everything stuck and they took every chance they got."

If only Ron had sent our lads out with this kind of approach. We might not have won, but I'm sure we would have done better. The sneaky point at Man City could quite easily have been a 4-1 hammering. He is crazy if he thought we could be so lucky a second time.

Andrew Clare
90 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:44:26
Koeman set the team up in the way that he did because he was well aware of the players' limitations. He knows now the extent of the job in hand. If he had sent the team out to attack Chelsea, we would have lost 10-0. The players just aren't good enough.

In time, he will get it right, but it's going to take at least 2 or 3 transfer windows. As I said on another post, we only have 2 good players – the rest are either past it or not up to standard.

Paul Washington
91 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:48:32
Paul Tran @ 81, I have been thinking the same.

Ron's demeanour on the touchline doesn't seem right to me. Has he been let down with whatever he was promised by the powers that be???

One thing for sure: get players in soon as – don't wait until the last day circus.

Jon Withey
92 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:50:19
The players were crap, but I'm not buying that the system was the right one either Koeman.
Steve Harris
93 Posted 06/11/2016 at 09:53:37
At least we hopefully won't be getting embarrassing comments on their Twitter pages like "Love You Ronald" and "Love You Jan" today!!
Barry Pearce
94 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:18:10
Agree with Andrew (#90).

Koeman was never that defensive with Southampton. For whatever reason, he doesn't trust these players.

A lot of work for Mr Walsh to be done to find some unearthed gems. As household names don't seem to want to come to our great club.

Drew O'Neall
95 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:22:59
The formation didn't stop Lukaku controlling a single pass.

The formation didn't make Coleman take up Williams's position from him like a Sunday league player, giving Hazard the space to cut inside.

The formation didn't paralyse our 'keeper.

Sorry, that was the players' fault, not Koeman's formation– and he said as much in the interview while remaining professional. I dare say there will be less diplomacy when he debriefs the protagonists.

Mark Morrissey
96 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:31:36
I agree with Andrew @ 90. Too many ageing players. No real keeper. Old defenders. Very slow midfielder in Gareth, as good as he can be on his day. One class striker in Rom, again on his day.

So many changes required. We'll see if Moshiri has the cash come January but we need some bodies "in".

Daniel A Johnson
97 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:32:02
There is a cold disconnect with Koeman and Everton.

His statement of Everton not being as good as Chelsea is almost designed to distance himself from the result and any collateral damage. There is no 'we' reference at all.

There is no love or passion at all – just cold professionalism.

It's almost like a cold marriage of convenience.

Phil Walling
98 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:33:35
The Sunday Supplement team are saying Koeman is going to turn us back 'more to a Moyes team'!

Now where's that fucking pistol?

Daniel A Johnson
99 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:40:00
The worst thing about yesterday is that we were set up to defend and had obviously been working on it all week... only for it to be embarrassingly blown to pieces within 30 minutes. Poor all round from the coaching staff and the players.

Plus, as others have mentioned, the 1-1 Man City result could easily have been 6-1. It's been coming.

Stephen Brown
100 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:40:03
Daniel (#97),

I get that feeling too. As much as I like Ronald Koeman, I just don't like the talk of "I will give you 3 years then move on" – in the same way that Lukaku gets my goat up when he tells us he's happy to give us a year! It's like we should be grateful!

Chelsea were excellent yesterday to be fair but we will learn a lot about this team on the reaction Koeman gets against Swansea!

Patrick Murphy
101 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:40:37
Last minute preparations for the Chelsea game sees the players less than enthusiastic about the new formation, and boy how it showed last night!

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Pete Edwards
102 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:44:37
Brian, how exactly has Koeman not consolidated the existing resources? Are we not still 6th in the league slightly better positioned than at the end of the last 2 seasons?

Look, for anyone dismissing the 2-year rebuild needs to have a think, was Koeman going to come in and sell most of the 1st team and replace them straight away? No, that was never going to happen... I mean, come on, there were plenty on here saying it wasn't the players but the manager who was to blame for the poor performances for 2 seasons. It's also been said on here these players (many of them anyway) have the wrong mentality which is why it will take more than 11 games to shake off.

I'm firmly in the "Its going to take time" and "We need a couple of really great players" to become what we want camps. Chelsea for example had Pedro (20 titles to his name) and Hazard (who is World Class) running the show. So, until we get at least one player of this ilk into the club to kick-start the process, we won't realistically be much higher than 6th - 8th in the league. It'll take a little time!

Daniel A Johnson
103 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:45:53
I've been willing to give Koeman a large slice of good will as this is Martinez's team – not his. But a few more performances like that and questions will have to be asked.

I genuinely do think though we have more than a few bad apples attitude-wise within this squad and they need weeding out. There is just something that doesn't quite feel right and that stems back to the Martinez era too.

Neil Pickering
104 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:46:12
Hopefully this result should quell any talk of us getting into Europe. Koeman has a massive job on and the squad needs gutting, but I'm confident he's the man to do it.

Over the next 12 months I predict a shipout of so many players including the likes of Barkley, Deulofeu, Mirallas, Oviedo, Gibson, Lennon, Cleverley and Kone. I could go on from there as well. Major surgery is needed with no less than 7/8 new players needed over the next 2 windows.

If he's backed financially, this guy will get it right, though. I'm sure of it.

Ray Roche
105 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:53:19
Colin Metcalfe (#65),

"Liam (#53), tell you what – I can't recall a worse performance than that under Martinez, can you?"

What a short memory you've got, Colin. Are you a goldfish? Think back to 28th January 2014. Only a missed penalty prevented the RS from beating us 5-0 in one of the worst performances ever.

20th April 2016. RS 4-0 EFC. Utter humiliation.

Chelsea were on another planet to us yesterday but let's not rewrite history. We had plenty of crap under Martinez. At least Koeman doesn't come and insult our intelligence by saying we should have got something out of the game and enjoyed wonderful "moments".

Geoff Williams
106 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:53:25
He doesn't trust youth. The midfield was overrun so he brought on Mirallas. It should have been Davies and it should have been Williams or Jagielka coming off.
Daniel A Johnson
107 Posted 06/11/2016 at 10:56:22
Time to go:

Jagielka (too old, slow and now error prone)
Coleman (against class opposition he looks very poor)
Oviedo (not good enough)
Mirallas (lazy and inconsistent)
Deulofeu (never going to make it at EFC)
Barry (can't go on forever)
Baines (now too injury-prone to rely upon)
Cleverley (an enigma of a footballer)
Kone (too old to lead a frontline)
Valencia (not good enough)
Gibson (how did he get an extension??)

To replace that lot with quality Premier League class players would cost over £300M – do we have the money? I don't think we do.


Brian Harrison
108 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:02:18
A bad day at the office for the manager and players. We set up for this game the same as the Man City game with three at the back. We were fortunate against Man City that the keeper was outstanding; otherwise, I think the result would have been similar to yesterday's.

Now I am a big fan of Ronald Koeman but he has to decide if he wants to play 3 or 4 at the back as our present players are not good enough to change formations, even though he may want to have that option.

I think this group of players, especially the front players are the most inconsistent group. We have had Lukaku, Barkley, Bolasie, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Cleverley, Valencia, Lennon and they can't even be consistent for 90 minutes on many occasions, let alone over a run of games. And because of this, Koeman can't trust them from week to week on what performance he will get from this team.

I think Bolasie epitomizes this problem; sometimes in games he looks amazing... then, 10 minutes later, does the daftest of things. Koeman bought him and must have been aware of his inconsistencies, so he needs to eradicate that from his game and the sooner the better. The only thing about Bolasie is he is new to the club so deserves a chance to be more consistent; the rest have been here long enough for us to know it will take something extraordinary for them to change.

Yesterday was a reality check and showed that we can't compete with the top 4/5 with this group of players. Their mental attitude and skill are nowhere near the level needed to break into the top group.

I don't expect that Koeman will want to spend massive amounts in the January window but I think he will make a couple of additions. But, come the summer, I would expect that Steve Walsh and Ronald Koeman will have identified the type of players they need.

Peter Gorman
109 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:09:36
Paul Tran, I've had the bad feeling for some time that all is not well in the squad. I don't think they are particularly united and get the impression there are one or two cliques.

I've not a lot to base this on but Lukaku to me seems to be the biggest problem as he exudes an air of absolute superiority to the club and team-mates. A bit of an enigma that because he is also clearly a very nice guy but does think he is better than everything to do with Everton.

Things like that lead to fractured relationships and in a nutshell, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this sorry bunch play for each other let alone the shirt.

Mark Wilson
110 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:14:01
Bill (#77 and #78). You are spot on re Southampton. Koeman did inherit a squad with most of the best players sold out from underneath him. As soon as the previous campaign ended, he then immediately, and in very short order, went about recruiting a large number of players of his choosing who produced a season's performance way beyond expectations of a club in crisis after a selling frenzy.

Cut to this summer... no big selling spree but a squad in deep trouble after a dire season... and a pathetic transfer window that left us very short.

As for these calls for a measured response and not apparently OTT reactions to utterly humiliating performances... what kind of Premier League world are you living in? There is NO time given to managers anymore, except of course at Everton. This is the most competitive ruthless league in world football and the rewards are as great as the fall from grace when it happens.

Koeman is one of the highest paid managers in the game, anywhere. He is meant to be a lot better than setting up his team in a way that instantly produced a shameful shambolic performance, a way that obviously exposed aging tired centre backs, one of whom he bought for £10 million who has yet to show his "commanding leadership" qualities.

Koeman made a huge mistake in a game that mattered, a lot. He also lost us vital momentum with that awful Norwich defeat and frankly I'm less than impressed by his performance this season which is already over a quarter gone.

So, have I said "sack him"? No. But, like many here, I'm just reflecting that after 11 games, despite those 18 points against teams in "our league", and taking into account my view of his and the club's "performance" in the transfer window, I think he's been at best disappointing and at worst, he doesn't seem as arsed as I thought he would be when players let themselves and us down so badly.

I've read comments suggesting there's something not quite right within the club and the instigator is flamed for not providing "facts". Well here's the thing: I've no facts either, just a sense that all is not great behind the scenes... full stop. And it shows on the pitch where, and it's just a personal view, there's a lack of passion for the fight.

This, Bill, is how I see it now. How else can we reflect on a showing like yesterday unless it's in part in the moment? I can't sit here and shout, "It's early days, all will be well, judge at the end of the season," because something has to change dramatically in my view for that patient analysis to be something other than "hugely disappointing" or even worse.

We can only call things how we see them and try to be honest if things change and say "Yep, that surprised me, didn't think he'd turn things round so quickly after that slaughter but well done, he's proved me wrong". That's where I'm hoping to be after the next half dozen games to Christmas.

Then, if we can come back quickly from this humiliation, maybe, just maybe, Walsh etc will have got their act together and we can bring in the minimum of four players we desperately need. I don't care how tough it is in the January window, it has to be done – else there will be no platform to build from in the summer of 2017.

John Graham
111 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:22:09
Let's face it, some of the players just aren't good enough.

Stekelenburg had a great game against Man City but he is not a top goalkeeper. Oviedo has one good game in four. Cleverley should never get anywhere near the first team. Jagielka is now starting to show his age. Mirallas and Deulofeu threaten to deceive. Barkley needs to up his game lots and Bolasie has still to prove he is worth his transfer fee.

I could go on and on but the truth is we need a big big clear out. Let's hope Mr Moshiri has deep pockets.

Trevor Peers
112 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:40:15
Step back a week in time, everyone on here seemed reasonably satisfied with our progress after that win over West Ham. After all, last season we were 2-0 up and still managed to lose.

Comparing Koeman with Martinez is ridiculous, anyone including big Dunc would have done a better job than him. If Roberto had of stayed on we we'd be on course for relegation.

Yesterday was just awful; no excuses – he got the team selection terribly wrong. We just have to hope Koeman has got the answers. God help us if he hasn't, two crap managers on the run would be disastrous.

So far he's only brought in three players, one on loan. So there is a need for patience; no matter who got the job, it was always going to take a long time and lots money to put it right.

Brent Stephens
113 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:56:31
Daniel (#97),

"There is a cold disconnect with Koeman and Everton".

Don't you mean "Koeman and us"?!

Brent Stephens
114 Posted 06/11/2016 at 11:58:53
Drew (#95), "The formation didn't stop Lukaku controlling a single pass".

We can't say that Lukaku had a good game but to say he didn't control a single pass is total bollocks.

Jon Withey
115 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:02:41
Stekelenburg, Gana, Bolasie, Williams and Valencia is 5 players – not 3.

Ignoring the money paid, they were all good additions for an upper-mid-table club.

I'm still amazed we kept Gibson though, what was the point?

Richard Dodd
116 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:04:37
Brian @108; What exactly has Koeman done to make you 'a big fan' of his?
John Wilson
117 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:04:38
I don't blame Everton (the team), I blame the money men and the corporate (business) transactions (transfers or there lack of).

The game has changed, good manager (Chelsea) and quality 'world class' players (Chelsea) = excellent prospect for any top 4 Premier League team, and therefore a formidable opponent for the likes of Everton.

Besides the fact we need a team overhaul, the game has changed tremendously to commercial benefits. I read the 2015 financial accounts. Everton's turnover (all income) was £125 million, through which around £17 million came in from ticket sales (2015 report, p 72). Everton in contrast brought in nearly £82 million (p 72) from 'broadcasting' Premier League games, ie through TV and radio (this is a £3 million loss from 2014's income). Salaries for all including players, management etc: £68 million (approximately half of the turnover). The broadcasting income is received by Everton for apparently just playing in the Premier League...

"Broadcasting: £81.690M (2015); £84.756M (2014)
Gate receipts: £17,904M (2015); £16.797M (2014)
Sponsorship, advertising and merchandising: £10,365M (2015); £8,436M (2014)
Other commercial activities £15,613M (2015) £10,522M (2014)
TOTALS: £125.572M (2015); £120.511M (2014)"

Bill Kenwright, CBE then says "THANK YOU Finally, and most importantly as ever, I say thanks to each and every one of you Evertonians. Your dedication and passionate support of the team and the Club is awe-inspiring and makes this Club so unique and special. Home and away, your loyalty and the emotions you wear on your shirt sleeves humble me. Truly. You are the best. Thank you."

Thank you for what exactly? For making them rich! You thank Everton fans by respecting Everton fans. Without Everton fans, there is no £82 million broadcasting; no £18 million ticket fans; no £10 million merchandise sales (even more popular in 2015 than in 2014).

This aspect of Everton's football industry has to change and instead, the capital (money, income) injected should be redistributed to attract the type of players Everton require to give them a fighting chance.

http://ToffeeWeb.com/club/business/annual_reports/AnnualReport15.pdf

Andrew Clare
118 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:12:16
I have to admit that I was disappointed by the players we brought in during the last transfer window. Only Gueye, who I didn't know of, has been a good signing.

I just hope that we already have at least 3 quality players lined up on verbal agreements for January. In my dreams!

We have been poor for too many years to remember. I looked at our record against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge before the game yesterday and the last 20 years against them have been shocking. This is the worst period in our history.

Talk about "let it go"... Everton have suffered from neglect by the owners and us the fans are Everton.

John Wilson
119 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:18:11
Assume an Everton ticket is at least £30. £30 (ticket) x 30,000 (fans attendance for one game) = nearly a £1 million (£900,000).
Ian Riley
120 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:39:56
Chelsea are on form. They beat Manchester United 4-0. It's three points. They would have beaten anyone yesterday.

My reaction to Koeman is time. He cannot be judge until at least three transfer windows have passed. Whatever formation or style is being implemented is going to take time or new players. Sadly the later I feel.

As much as Koeman said Chelsea's play was unplayable at times, he will be mad with the players. People talk about Plan B. We did not have the players for Plan A.

Terrible day at the office. Move on to the next game.

John Wilson
121 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:43:39
Historical turnover:

2010: £79 million, includes £50 million for broadcasting.

2005: £60 million, includes £29 million for broadcasting

2002: £38 million, includes £19 million for broadcasting

2001: £32 million, includes £4 million for commercials.

NB: through the years 2001 - 2015, Everton ticket sales were £14 million (2002) up to £18 million (2015). However, Everton's turnover has increased from £32 million (2001) to £125 million (2015). You do the maths!

Clive Rogers
122 Posted 06/11/2016 at 12:46:05
Worrying that he hooked Bolassie. Has he decided he's not good enough? Mirallas was a disgrace when he came on.
Damian Wilde
123 Posted 06/11/2016 at 13:07:32
Mick (#69) – excellent post, I completely agree.
John Wilson
124 Posted 06/11/2016 at 13:17:46
In my view, Everton fell apart from the point 2 goals were scored in the space of 70 seconds. Beyond this point, although made worse when the 3rd goal went in, Everton were subject to Barcelona-type antics with the second half the same: ie, a typical master class by the superior opponent, Chelsea.

Even after the break, no doubt with a roasting from Koeman, Everton were still too destroyed to play for their pride. In my view, Everton are clearly a confidence type of team, so it's not just Barkley who's a confidence player. Take someone out of Everton; the opponent scores... especially two, one after the other, and the result is that Everton fall apart.

You simply can't blame Everton solely for that – this is down to management. You can only dangle the carrot and stick for so long, ie, threaten the players' places with others (that's the point, isn't it, there's no competition for places and the transfer window was a failure).

Everton clearly need a team overhaul, and, taking all games into consideration, the first games of the season were clearly circumstantial (ie, appeared to be something they're not – not at this point anyway). The competition in the Premier League likely has had successful transfer windows with those transferred players willing to put in an effort, eg Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea.

It's likely Everton will suffer more humiliation if these aforesaid things either happen individually or collectively, up to until the January transfer window. In short, Everton are simply vulnerable to an ever improving competition in the Premier League. No game is going to be easy, therefore in this interim period.

Michael Lynch
125 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:05:25
I was at the game and I saw a fantastic team at the height of their powers, full of confidence, and inspired by a clever and passionate tactician, take apart a mediocre team of journeymen and past-it players led by a indifferent and unconvincing manager who possibly only came to the club for the money.

Not impressed. Except by Chelsea, who I hope will win the league with their exciting brand of football, particularly as they're the best hope of stopping the unmentionables from picking up the trophy this time around.

John Wilson
126 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:06:02
Someone asked the question, could Everton fund £300 million for the players we apparently require.

Moshiri although having a –1.6 billion personal fortune (not a lot relative to Everton), apparently only invested '£85 million' or £200 million into Everton for a 49.9% (less than 51% cannot control a company) share in Everton, depending on the legitimacy of the sources.

How much is Everton worth?

If a £200 million investment is valued at 49.9%, it suggests Everton are worth approximately £400 million.

If the £85 million figure is true, it suggests that Everton are worth £170 million.

However, the entire turnover for Everton is £125 million, so deducting £68 million wages leaves £57 million. This £57 million does not take into account its debts. In addition, ownership of land, ie premises, other assets.

The question therefore becomes: What exactly did Moshiri invest in to have a 49.9% share?

Daniel A Johnson
127 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:16:09
The issue is we are chasing a new stadium from scratch which won't come cheap and also require close to £300M to be able to compete with the top 5 on the playing field across a long hard season.

We are still a million miles away from achieving either.

Tony Abrahams
128 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:30:41
Football can be a very hard game when you are playing against a team as good as Chelsea were yesterday. It becomes a lot harder, when players don't roll up their sleeves and fight, which is what happened yesterday.

I started watching when the score was 2-0, and the body language of a lot of players even then, was that they couldn't wait for the game to end.

Something wrong... something very wrong when the team just can't play as a unit, so maybe Peter and Paul have got a point, and harmony in the changing room just isn't right?

Gordon Crawford
129 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:31:40
As painful as all this is, we can't jump the shark. We need to be patient and give Koeman is chance. If he screws it up after two further transfer windows, then he needs to be sacked.

One thing that really bothered me yesterday was the smirk on his face when giving an interview to the BBC. I would not be smirking if the team I managed lost 5-0 in the way they did, I would be pissed.

Tony Dove
130 Posted 06/11/2016 at 14:42:52
Team to play Swansea (4-4-2):

Robles
Coleman Holgate Williams Baines/Oviedo
Lennon Davies Gueye McCarthy
Lukaku Barkley

Barry Pearce
131 Posted 06/11/2016 at 15:09:16
That is the worst I've felt at a game since the FA Cup Quarter-final defeat by Wigan.

Hope there isn't unrest in the changing room, but the body language of the players yesterday. Davies apart, wasn't good.

Kevin Tully
132 Posted 06/11/2016 at 15:32:09
Habitually optimistic Evertonians brought back down to earth with a massive crash... as usual.

We are that starved of any success, a win at home against Man Utd or Arsenal tends to be the highlight of our season, and those victories don't come around too often. Let's be honest, the likes of Barry and Cleverley are let go by bigger clubs for a reason. They aren't going to suddenly become world beaters at their age, are they?

Our teams are built around mid-table journeymen players with a sprinkle of one or two Champions League standard players who will eventually leave and the cycle will begin again. Stones has gone, Lukaku will be next and I don't blame any player who craves success. Would you like to go your whole career as a professional footballer without a single winner's medal?

There is a reason the players stay with us knowing they are destined to never win any silverware – they aren't quite good enough, but they are well paid.

Last night's game only magnified the gulf in class between us and Champions League quality. There is one undeniable fact – the hierarchy at the club are happy with finishing in the top half, and until that changes, we will be perennial losers.

Rodgers got the bullet at Liverpool after nearly winning the League, simply because the owners at that club demand Champions League football, rightly so with the money invested.

Until we have a ground, owners and players all fit for purpose, we are destined to fail I'm afraid. Our new director has just had an audience with the Pope, while the other big clubs are signing £900m sponsorship deals (Chelsea with Nike) and until we become a ruthless corporate machine, we will remain 'The People's Club.' Just don't expect to win anything for another 22 years.

The only top quality aspect about our club is the long suffering supporters.

Barry Pearce
133 Posted 06/11/2016 at 15:35:35
Kevin (#132),

Sad but true.

Bill Gall
134 Posted 06/11/2016 at 15:57:23
As the manager has stated, he was disappointed with his players at yesterday's performance. It will be interesting to see what he is going to do about it next game.

Will he drop some of the poorer performers, or will he show he is not ruthless enough and just keep the same team with Gueye coming back in and Cleverley taking Barry's place.

Steavey Buckley
135 Posted 06/11/2016 at 16:02:58
A combination of goalkeeping errors, tactics the Everton players were not comfortable with, lack of energy and desire to go and win the ball, made it so easy for Chelsea.

Chelsea's most dangerous players, Hazard and Costa, were given acres of space and time by the Everton defence, even though at times, seven Everton players were around their own penalty area.

This Everton team, maybe including the manager, appear to be going nowhere fast. And to save his reputation and job, he has to perform major surgery on this Everton team before it's too late.

Anthony Hughes
136 Posted 06/11/2016 at 16:04:16
Too true, Kevin, but many on here are in cloud cuckoo land regarding not selling our soul to Arab or Russian billionaires and wanting to be nice old Everton, just like a comfy pair of slippers. Cold, hard cash and lots of it is required to give us the remotest chance of competing again.

Ruthless is what we need to be – on the pitch and off it – and never mind giving Koeman 2 to 3 years – he should being told now it's not good enough.

Nice fans, nice club... no trophies.

David Barks
137 Posted 06/11/2016 at 16:12:51
Kevin completely nails it.
Mike Berry
139 Posted 06/11/2016 at 16:55:34
Out-played, out-fought and out-thought (players and staff). But above all, not fit enough. Every side we play is faster than us.
Colin Metcalfe
140 Posted 06/11/2016 at 16:59:50
Ray (#105), no, I don't swim round in a glass bowl all day! But yesterday's was the worst performance I can remember, because we didn't even have a go. One effort on goal, pathetic!

The derby of 2014 was a car crash but it was better than yesterday – not by much but we try to attack in that game but yesterday it could've easily been 7.

I suggest you watch a rerun of the 2 matches and get back to me... I will be in my big tank next to the fucking tropical fish!!

Gordon Crawford
141 Posted 06/11/2016 at 17:41:44
Mike I don't believe for a second that the players are not fit. Are you telling me that two managers plus the coaching staff can't get those players fit?

It's about desire and most of them can't be bothered to run. The are lazy frauds; they would make a real footballer weep.

Mark Morrissey
142 Posted 06/11/2016 at 17:51:41
You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Koeman got it wrong yesterday but then so did Alex Ferguson on occasions, so did Guardiola only a few weeks ago, and then his team goes on to beat Barcelona.

This season, he has had his worst run ever as a manager according to the stats. The team that beat Barcelona drew with us. Does that mean we would draw with Barcelona??? Probably not.

My point is this: Stop blaming the board and stop blaming Koeman. Our players could not live with Chelsea because it was like Whippets against old Greyhounds. We are what we are because we are a club in transition. You can't always get a Chopper for Christmas.

Sometimes in life, you have to wait and don't say "It's alright for you – I've witnessed this and that." I'm nearly 60, I remember seeing Kendall's lot, Latchford's lot, Sharpy's mob and I am more optimistic now than ever before. It's going to take some time. It's time for calm nerves. Lets keep our heads.

We will be top six this season, at worst top 8... and that's a good first season given what Koeman has at his disposal. However, if we don't strengthen in January and next summer, and the money men go AWOL as they did this Summer, then I'll re-set my sights.

The club needs time to adjust but I for one am optimistic about the future. Keep the faith. I don't care less what's going on across the park either. Work will be shit tomorrow but our time will come, keep the faith, boys.

Ray Roche
143 Posted 06/11/2016 at 17:57:43
Colin, and I'll be in the tank next to the sharks, who squeezed past Watford today. Bastards.

Bad as yesterday was, it can be tempered by the fact that Chelsea were little short of sensational, and that must be true because Trevor Francis kept telling us so in the commentary.

The difference between that and the derby is that the RS were regarded as being "there for the taking", defensively inept and the best chance we'd had in years of three points. And we bottled it, bringing back unfit players, throwing caution to the wind – Martinez to a tee. (No offence meant by the goldfish reference, by the way!)

Michael Kenrick
144 Posted 06/11/2016 at 18:16:18
I'm not sure I track where you're going with all this Everton finance stuff, John (#117, #119, #121,) especially on this thread... but you say (#126):

The question therefore becomes: What exactly did Moshiri invest in to have a 49.9% share?

The 'investment' is in Everton Shares, simple as. Nicely printed bits of paper, 17,465 of them... nominally worth £1 each.

But the prime recipients of the money were Messers Kenwright, Earl and Woods – not one red cent penny of Moshiri's £85 million has gone to Everton Football Club.

nb: Not £200 million – that's how much Farhad Moshiri got for his Arsenal shares... and what must have led gullible fools to speculate that most of the balance would go to some mythical transfer 'warchest'.

Mike Green
145 Posted 06/11/2016 at 18:53:56
I've come to terms with the fact that the league we are competing in is from 6th down, with the dubious reward of Europa Cup football as the prize, should we win it.

There is one very notable recent exception but the only thing that gets you into the top league consistently is pots and pots and pots of money and knowing what to do with it.

Second-rate finances get you second-rate players which get you second-rate performances as a result. And even then nothing's guaranteed. For us to buck the trend, we need an oil baron and a miracle worker.

Get used to more, and more, mediocrity.

Andy Crooks
146 Posted 06/11/2016 at 19:22:07
Andrew (#90), we avoided a 10-goal defeat only because Chelsea eased off, not because Koeman decided to play it safe and not have a go.
Kim Vivian
147 Posted 06/11/2016 at 19:41:53
Tell you how big the gulf is: Chelsea aren't even in Europe – never mind the Champions League.
Tony Draper
148 Posted 06/11/2016 at 19:47:20
When we appointed Ronald Koeman, I was satisfied. Admitedly, following "Project Martinez" my scepticism level has heightened and my tolerance level dropped. I still believe that a full season is required before judgement. (Unless matters become truly self-apparent.)

Nevertheless, "the Chelsea Incident" has opened old wounds. I will not single out anyone, because such outcomes are NOT the responsibility of one or few.

What I will no longer stomach is Ross Barkley's "jogging from the waist up" act. If this lad wants to earn a living playing football, then he must cease PLAYING at playing football. His fucking Marcel Marceau depiction of half-jogger, half-statue has lost its comedy appeal to me.

Ross, you can move your bloody arms like Peter Kay imitating his Dad running across Asda's car park anytime you like lad, but when you pull on the Royal Blue Jersey, make sure that your feet propel you a bloody sight faster than fucking "continental drift".

George Cumiskey
149 Posted 06/11/2016 at 19:53:51
Tony @130 why would you keep putting Barkley in your team when he is obviously not up to the task? Is it just because he's one of us.
Clive Rogers
151 Posted 06/11/2016 at 20:36:14
Kenwright's legacy – a total shambles from top to bottom.
Ian Smitham
152 Posted 06/11/2016 at 20:53:29
I have to follow up MK's observations (#144) and say I was at best confused by the postings he refers to, most notably #126. In most businesses, it is regarded that someone with over 20% of the shares is regarded as a controlling director. I am confused by a few other posters on here referring to the ongoing influence that Bill Kenwright has on anything.

It is this simple, imagine some arguement breaks out about whatever. Everyone falls out and a decision has to be made. The owner of 49.9% of the shares says, or, more likely, gets his appointed man to say, "Here are my votes." He then challenges everyone else to get theirs together and out vote him.

Simply, he has won. Even if they could contact enough voters, and the debate about everything Everton on here bears testimony, there is probably no issue that unites each and every person who can vote.

So, Kenwright or anyone else does not like something, organises a vote, and puts his holding forward, the 49.9% man disagrees. Moshiri gets his man to put his votes up and that is it. Done. Get used to it.

Peter Fearon
153 Posted 06/11/2016 at 21:06:12
We are actually two points worse off today after 11 games than we were after the comparable moment in Martinez's tenure. So to say there is no improvement (so far) is not a judgement, it's an unpleasant fact.

Interestingly, if you look back at the line-up for the 11th game of Martinez tenure and compare it to the 11th game of Koeman's, the similarity is striking. There are only four major changes - Howard, McCarthy, Distin and Osman. Two of those changes came under Martinez himself. Otherwise the line-up looks remarkably familiar - Coleman, Baines, Barry, Jagielka, Mirallas, Barkley and Lukaku all survive from that day.

What can we conclude from this? Clearly the work of building a winning team still has not even begun in earnest. What Koeman and Co are waiting for, I cannot imagine. None of these players, with the possible exception of Lukaku, are getting any better with the passage of time.

Tweaking isn't going to work. Wholesale changes are required. I never agreed that Martinez was as poor a manager as some fans claimed and on this basis no-one can argue that Koeman is doing any better. In fact, my recollection is that the standard of football in that first season was of a higher quality than we are currently struggling to digest.

Andrew Clare
154 Posted 06/11/2016 at 21:20:46
Andy (#146),

I am all for the team having a go but I just don't think these players are good enough. They are just not fighters... as Koeman has found out.

Chris Leyland
155 Posted 06/11/2016 at 21:24:01
Peter Fearon - I'm not sure that your comparison is a fair one. Martinez took over a consistently stable top 6/7 side. Koeman took over a shambolic mess.
Ray Roche
156 Posted 06/11/2016 at 22:42:45
Peter (#153),

"What Koeman and Co are waiting for, I cannot imagine."

A transfer window? Some transfer funds?

Just a bit of a wild guess there, Peter.

"I never agreed that Martinez was as poor a manager as some fans claimed."

I didn't either. I thought he was far worse.

Gordon Crawford
157 Posted 06/11/2016 at 22:45:58
What a perfect weekend, that shower are top of the league. Just so fed up.
Don Alexander
158 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:20:01
Folks, I think Koeman knew exactly what he was doing with yesterday's starting formation. Had he started with the usual four-man defence, he'd have given himself nowhere to go subs-wise had we conceded an early couple or goals. He could hardly have then reverted to five at the back could he?

He knows the considerable limitations in attitude and ability from many of the squad he inherited. I guess he's utilising a number of formations to show the board, and especially those who've never set foot in the Boys Pen, just what a crock of shit they've invested in and how much it'll cost to get close to Champions League qualification.

I think the club may be in a moment of crisis at the top. Why Kenwright and Elstone are still there astounds me because they have no credentials at all in terms of achieving football success.

I hope Mr Moshiri releases funds to allow an immediate, significant squad re-build because, if he doesn't, any good player will have no wish to join the club we may soon become – advertising in some imminent January for the likes of Pulis or Allardyce to save us from the drop.

Mike Corcoran
159 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:28:02
Rooney looked the biz today, I would love to see him bringing the best out of Rom.
Peter Fearon
160 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:32:47
Ray, I don't know what you may have been smoking but we just had a huge influx of funds and the summer transfer window and the result was two players – one of whom is all head and no stout.

Also, Martinez may have been the worst manager in history, if you like, but the point is Koeman has showed no sign of doing significantly better.

Ernie Baywood
161 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:51:54
Peter, I don't feel much like defending anyone involved in that match, but to criticise Koeman for not yet making wholesale changes??? He's only been here 5 minutes.

He's now seen the squad up close and in action. So has Moshiri. So has Walsh. I don't see any excuses in January, but right now he can point to a club that finished in the bottom half over the last two seasons and was getting worse and worse in the second half of last season.

Don Alexander
162 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:52:13
Martinez, apart from his one season when he inherited Moyes's team, "achieved" year-after-year decline with both Wigan and us in terms of Premier League results. That's a shambles of a record.

Koeman inherited a team, Southampton, who sold many of their better players in the two consecutive seasons he was there, and he still twice took them to 6th, way above us.

He's got a 3-year contract and he needs support from us, and especially the owners in the transfer market, cos he's inherited a lot of dross courtesy of Kenwright and BBS.

Grant Rorrison
163 Posted 06/11/2016 at 23:52:27
Last season 11 games - 16 points - 19 GF 15 GA +4
This season 11 games - 18 points - 15 GF 13 GA +2

2 points better off. 2 less goals conceded and 4 less goals scored. Amazing really.

Considering we had played Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Man Utd already at this stage last season and have only played 3 of those teams so far this season, it's even less spectacular.

Hannes Eerola
164 Posted 06/11/2016 at 00:07:06
I just cannot understand why Koeman put Stekelenburg and Jagielka back into the team.

Chelsea were so good that it's debatable whether if that would have stopped them from winning the game, but that would have been a good starting point in succeeding in this game. Robles looked comfortable against West Ham, Williams & Funes Mori looked decent.

Jagielka is evidently in a poor run of form at the moment, but with Stekelenburg the problems are more wide-stretched than that. Although he has the ability to make stunning saves, he isn't consistent enough to be a top Premier League keeper.

He reminds me of Tim Howard in the later stages of his Everton tenure. With Tim, you wanted to hold him in high esteem, but you just couldn't, cause you knew that there was some major blunder waiting. Even after some world class saves.

David Barks
165 Posted 07/11/2016 at 01:18:44
Grant,

Add on top of that not being knocked out of a Cup to a lower-league side.

Anto Byrne
166 Posted 06/11/2016 at 02:29:10
Koeman will be starting the cull.

11 games in, the honeymoon period definitely over. Just let the manager do his job – this result is just what was required. Lucky against Man City and not good enough for Burnley and Bournemouth – this was an accident waiting to happen.

What can be salvaged from the wreckage remains to be seen. I wasn't expecting miracles but the signs are there for a very good team just short of 3 or 4 quality individuals.

Michael Long
167 Posted 07/11/2016 at 02:53:46
As much as I hate to say it (I really do), look at them shower across the park, they were bang average players under Rodgers. Now, a decent manager has come in he has turned them from average to fighters and it worries me.

My point is that I do think Koeman is a decent manager, I am prepared to give him time; however, them players (Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barkley, Oviedo, Coleman, Jagielka, Funes Mori, Stekelenburg and couple more come to mind) do not know the meaning of aggressiveness or fight.

Koeman needs to sell some of these players in 2017, whether it's January or next summer; either way, they have to leave in the next two windows. Otherwise, it's same old same old shite and "told you so" moments.

Basically just bring players who are determined and aggressive, plus attacking-minded enough to not fuck up or bottle it in certain games.

Marc Sansum
168 Posted 07/11/2016 at 12:25:32
Bill @ 77;

AB-SO-LUTELY spot on, mate!

Ray Roche
169 Posted 07/11/2016 at 12:27:29
Peter Fearon (#160).

Peter, if you ever find me smoking anything at all, I'll pay your mortgage off and pay for a private jet to fly you back for every home game!

If we are to believe what we read, Everton were thwarted in trying to buy several players in the only transfer window Koeman has had. True, we have had (apparently) a "huge influx" of funds but I don't see the point in throwing money around until you have an idea where you need to throw it.

I imagine Koeman is by now well aware of the crock of shit he inherited (best squad since the '80s? ... HA!) and will address the problems when transfer windows etc. allow. Of the three players brought in, Gana has been excellent; Williams had, until Saturday, made our defence much stronger; and the jury is still out on Bolasie, in my opinion.

I think that Koeman deserves time to sort out the mess Everton have been allowed to become over the last three seasons and, on his own admission, it's at least a 2-year project. So far he's had 11 games... some are beginning to sound like the RS were when Brenda's tenure began to turn sour. But even that shower gave him more time than Koeman has had before some people are sharpening their knives.

And there may well be a new stadium on the horizon, don't forget.

Tony J Williams
170 Posted 07/11/2016 at 13:23:12
"but you have to accept sometimes in life your opponent is by far the better team and that was what happened today."

Will this be his knife to a gunfight quote?

Ray Roche
171 Posted 07/11/2016 at 13:41:40
I'd say it's pretty accurate Tony. Bit like we've been in the (distant) past. Better than the opposition.

And his comments are better than the gushing fountain of crap that Martinez would have spouted had he still been here.

Tony J Williams
172 Posted 07/11/2016 at 13:46:51
Agreed, Ray... phenomenal!
Anthony Hughes
173 Posted 07/11/2016 at 14:08:53
"But you have to accept sometimes in life your opponent is by far better the better team and that was what happened today".

Fair comment, Ronald, but that doesn't mean we just lie down as a team and take it up the jacksie. How about some sort of passion and fight and game plan to try to counter what's happening on the pitch?

Jay Harris
174 Posted 07/11/2016 at 14:33:51
Let's be honest: Big Nev would have saved all five of those goals. Stekelenburg seems to have lost the plot the last couple of games. He was not helped by the fact that the players' "frozen state of fear" seems to have returned.

IMO, last season was a fear of the crowd (besides he Martinez effect) but, after Moshiri's statement that Koeman was brought in because he is ruthless and any player not doing his stuff will be shipped out and replacements brought in does not do much for squad harmony.

Now some people may see that as a positive but the players already have that fragile mentality, so things may have to get worse before they become better.

Jack Convery
175 Posted 07/11/2016 at 14:48:12
The players in the squad from Moyes's days were brainwashed into thinking "we can't win here", so we defended against the top teams. Martinez then added to their mental well-being by adopting a "Let's get em, Floyd, and sod the defensive side of things". This led to Jagielka, Coleman and Baines in particular, losing their confidence / faith in their manager and their own defensive abilities after 18 months, with the rest of the squad joining in after 2 years.

Koeman comes into a squad that no longer has a clue how to defend, press and retain the ball, unless you pass it square at the back ad infinitum. He also discovered the very weak mentality inherent within the squad – just look what happens whenever the RS come to town and especially at Anfield.

We have too many players who don't get angry, as we do, when we lose. Cleverley states "I'm embarrassed" – no, mate, you should be as mad has hell. We desperately need an influx of mental winners and right now we only have Williams, Barry and Gueye.

Lukaku and Barkley are the cherries you put on top of a cake. Lukaku, just like Barkley, has games that can and do pass him by but without his goalscoring ability we would be truly screwed right now. The cake we have is not nearly baked well enough yet, so Barkley and Lukaku will have games like the Chelsea game. This is why Barkley was left out against Man City and, if Gueye had been fit, would have been left out on Saturday.

I remember Kevin Sheedy, what a left foot but he couldn't tackle to save his life. Thankfully he was covered by Bracewell, Van Den Hauwe and Ratcliffe who made up for this short-coming in his game but it allowed us to have Sheedy in the team and give us that quality we needed on the left.

To get the best out of players, others must compliment them and cover for any weaknesses. Right now we have too many mentally frail players and not enough 'Winning is all' types in the team.

For example, when Sheedy was out, he was covered by Kevin Richardson. Richardson was nowhere near as skillful as Sheedy but he was a winner... so, when Sheedy was injured, we coped with it. If Sheedy was being replaced for example by Mirallas, Sheedy would be missed, believe me.

I am still livid after Saturday and I reckon most if not all of you feel the same. Until we have a squad of players who feel the same way, nothing will change.

The only other thing I want to mention is that even the late great Howard Kendall had his off days – I give you Glen Keeley vs the Red Shite. I was there and it still haunts me. I reckon Koeman will get it right – it's just going to take a lot longer than we thought. Koeman is and always has been a 'Winning is all' type; he is currently dealing with a lot of people who aren't and I include members of the board too.

If this comes across as a bit of a ramble, excuse me... Saturday did for me big style.


Jack Convery
176 Posted 07/11/2016 at 14:51:15
Harry's wife would have saved most of them!
Ray Roche
177 Posted 07/11/2016 at 15:45:19
Jay, surely Moshiri has said this three days after the game? The "frozen state of fear" as you put it was there because that's the sort of players they are, right? I think they'd only be frozen with fear if they realised that they banked with Tesco.
John Wilson
178 Posted 07/11/2016 at 17:49:48
Michael Kendrick (at 144), and Ian Smitham (at 142), what do you think about this Moshiri's statement:

Investment on (players) and off the pitch (stadium), http://ToffeeWeb.com/season/16-17/news/33829.html

&

http://ToffeeWeb.com/season/16-17/news/33830.html

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