Blues enter period of limbo over Barkley's future

Tuesday 23 May 2017  115 Comments  [Jump to last]

The first day following the end of the 2016-17 season offered no clarity regarding Ross Barkley's contract situation.

With no apparent movement on his contract negotiations, the 23-year-old is on course to enter the final year of his existing deal on 1st July, a situation that Ronald Koeman is on record as saying is not acceptable in terms of his squad-building efforts.

The Dutchman has said that he only wants to retain players who want to play for Everton and is loathe to risk losing Barkley for nothing more than a development fee next year. When quizzed on the topic at recent press conferences, Koeman has said that he wanted an answer either way on the player's future by the end of the season which concluded on Sunday with another away defeat at Arsenal.

Predictably, there was no official word from the club yesterday and there is unlikely to be any kind of communication from Goodison Park regarding Barkley until he either agrees to new terms or he is sold during the upcoming transfer window.

Koeman was reportedly due to discuss the situation with the Everton board, though, and there are suggestions in the media that the club will schedule further talks with his representatives.

The Mirror are claiming that a £100,000-a-week contract offer is on the table and suggest that he could be given a few more days to mull his future. Tottenham Hotspur and Manchester United are rumoured in the press to be interested in Barkley while media reports last week said that Everton were looking for a fee of around £50m.

 

Reader Comments (115)

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Rick Tarleton
1 Posted 23/05/2017 at 06:19:16
Sigurdsson who on the stats finished considerably below Barkley as a provider last season (Barkley finished fifth according to The Observer) wants at least, according to the media, 𧴰,000 a week to come here.

Why Koeman so dislikes the boy is a mystery to me?

James Watts
3 Posted 23/05/2017 at 06:25:05
Rick (#1). Your last question is an easy one to answer.

I don't think it's that Koeman dislikes him, I think he is simply ambivalent towards him as Barkley is a bang average player and has been shite for most of the season.

Journos keep asking Koeman about Barkley so they can make a big deal out of it and get a headline.

Will Mabon
4 Posted 23/05/2017 at 07:39:09
James, if Barkley has been the fifth best provider of chances in the Prem. this season how can he be "Shite"?

Maybe I should also ask those that think the second highest goal scorer of the season is shite.

James Macdonald
5 Posted 23/05/2017 at 07:41:59
The stats are interesting as Barkley created more last season and if you take off the dead ball goals, they both scored the same amount through open play. Barkley had one free kick to 2 by Sigurdsson and Sigurdsson scored 3 penalties. Barkley has a better pass completion rate and is quicker. Sigurdsson played for a struggling team which should be factored in but we would be better off keeping Barkley than lash out 25 million and 120k a week on Sigurdsson. I wonder if they could play in the same team a la Erickson and Dele Ali?
Tony Abrahams
6 Posted 23/05/2017 at 07:43:44
Only rumours but I keep hearing that Barkley is signing for West Ham...
Will Mabon
8 Posted 23/05/2017 at 07:56:10
Tony - really? Maybe he just can't wait to get in a new stadium.

I'd be very surprised.

Jim Bennings
9 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:07:19
Rick

You must be watching a different Barkley from the one from the one that's frustratingly pissed me off all season!!

Did you see Barkley on Sunday Rick??

Brought on for Davies to do what exactly?

Did you see him at Anfield, at West Ham??

Have you watched him all season??

If your happy to just fend off 8th placed teams then keep Barkley and keep dreaming about this "unique talent " that we rarely see.

I don't know where these indexes get their info from but all I know is Barkley has stuttered to five goals this season from attacking central midfield, never turns up against better opponents and looks no further down the line than four years ago.

John Daley
10 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:08:37
"Barkley... Sigurdsson. I wonder if they could play in the same team a la Erickson and Dele Alli?"

Two attacking midfielders? In the same team? At the same time? Operating together? Possibly at the expense of a defensive player? For Everton?

Link

Will Mabon
11 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:18:00
John, you have a point.
Jim Bennings
12 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:25:58
Considering I can never see Everton ever stray again from this two holding midfielders fascination (even though it rarely works against better opposition).

So no it's unlikely you'll see two attacking central midfielders as the norm at Everton.

James Watts
13 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:26:35
Will #4. Apart from a decent 3 months this season, Barkley has been shite. No matter what the stats say. I've watched every game so it's an opinion based on my eyes, not blind stats. I'm guessing you don't agree?
Trevor Peers
14 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:27:08
Rick is entitled to his opinion, I just want Everton to sign better player's than we already have. The wages don't or shouldn't matter to the fans, that's for greedy agents to sort out. Barkley should sign, what has been described as a good contract offer and fight for his place.

Signing Sigurdsson should not be seen as a threat, he should welcome the help he'll get. If Ross can't handle the competition, wants a guaranteed start or just can't work with Koeman, maybe he should move on and quickly.

James Stewart
15 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:46:07
Chances created is a joke. Have a look at what constitutes a chance. Barkley doesn't score or assist anywhere near enough for someone in his position, simple as.
Nitesh Kanchan
16 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:51:29
Barkley needs an experienced midfielder besides him like Pogba had pirlo or look at Isco who was initially struggling but has learned a lot from likes of Kroos and Modric and stepped up. He wont learn anything from watching videos unless he gets to see the real thing and do it with them day-in and day-out.

I fear that is something he will get with likes of Man Utd or Spurs with Mata and Eriksen unless the board is ready to get player of that calibre. 75% of time he makes wrong decisions in the final third.

Barkley has the talent no doubt. It is joyful to watch when he is running with the ball at his feet and equally terrible when he is trying to pick out a pass and lesser the said about crossing the better. Fitness has improved under Koeman.

This will be the make or break transfer window . If we get that midfielder then we can get into top 4 next season else it will another disaster season just like that Europa League season we had under Martinez.

Rick Tarleton
17 Posted 23/05/2017 at 08:51:54
When watching Barkley and whoever is there to help him in an attacking midfield role, my instinct is always to give them sympathy.

Another stat, Lukaku was 503rd out of 503 Premier players last season for lack of movement. When you are a midfielder, unless there is movement you come to a dead stop. Lukaku is an excellent finisher but he knows what he wants, the wonder ball slipped past the defender for him to run on to. He rarely makes a run to open up the channels for the midfielders to come through.

Sigurdsson, Barkley or whoever is there next season, if Lukaku stays which is doubtful, will have to learn how to play with an inactive striker which complicates their job.

Sheedy, Steven, Bracewell and Reid were so good because there were Gray and Sharp creating space tirelessly, before that the holy trinity had Husband or Whittle and Royle and before that Young , Vernon and Morrissey were able to exploit space. I think sometimes you need to look beyond the obvious before sweeping judgements are made about players and their ability.

Will Mabon
18 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:00:26
James (Watts), Barkley's consistency has sometimes disappointed me for sure, based on what we saw in earlier times. To deem him shite though, no, I don't agree. He isn't.

He's carried the burden of being essentially the sole attacking link for much of the season, in a frequently "Safe", defensive set-up, away from home in particular. As you say, he has played several good months.

I use my eyes just like you, and stats, too. Lukaku has what could be deemed shortcomings when compared to other, different strikers but his goals (stats) show him as productive to the team. Judged in this way Sigurdsson, as a different player to Barkely, shows no great statistical improvement this season.

Trevor Peers
19 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:09:37
Will, Koeman has decided he wants Sigurdsson to join Everton, why is that an issue? He will improve the squad.

Don't you want quality player's to improve the squad or are you just obsessed with what happens to Ross Barkley. The mind boggles.

Dean Johnson
20 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:29:30
I reckon if I played as many games as Barkley then I would get better stats than him.

Seriously, if you take the free kicks all season then at some point, someone is going to nod one in.

All this talk of stats all the time is just blind people trying to justify their opinion. Anyone who actually watches Ross play sees that all his failings are ones which CAN'T be measured by stats.

English football all over, stat stat stat to show how right I am when results and performances constantly show otherwise. Yet it's the media outlets that use these stats to enhance the reputations of these bang average players.

Like Lukaku, can score a goal but is completely detrimental to the rest of the team. Everyone says "how do you replace his goals" and I always say "with the rest of the team".

Lukaku has great stats, Barkley has great stats, does anyone actually think that either of them are world class? or will be? I don't. They are selfish pricks only interested in their own stats and records.

They can both do one then perhaps we can move on finally from the Martinez debacle because I believe that there is still some shit from that guy floating around in their heads.

Clive Rogers
21 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:35:03
I think Koeman believes he can't rely on Barkley. He's had some good games but has consistently flopped in the big games. Two stinkers against Liverpool. Poor recently against Chelsea and Arsenal. Koeman wants someone he knows will turn up.
Gio Mero
22 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:43:35
I don't have any statistics in front of me to support this but my feeling is that Barkley has been much more productive at Goodison than away (more so than most of his other team mates). If we accept this I would go on and suggest it might have a lot to do with our tactical set up.

How were the rest of our attacking force in our away games? Not very good I guess? So a thought for Ron. How about you stick with Ross for our home games given our home form was good enough to challenge for top 4 and you try that Sigurdsson guy in our away games and see if Ross was the problem as it is sometimes suggested?

I know the real point of this situation is the financial implications of Ross not signing the contract. Just a bit of fantasy football on my part

Martin Mason
23 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:50:51
For me, it's irrelevant now how good Barkley is or isn't. He's calling the tunes and he is acting very professionally by saying nothing. He is 100% in the right not to sign a contract if it doesn't suit him to.

He's a young lad with a great future but mature enough now not to be bullied by Koeman. I admire his courage in willing to risk becoming a small fish in a big pond but I believe it will benefit him.

In general Ross has improved a lot this season but, like Rom, struggles to shine in an often poor Everton side that is unbalanced and, I believe incapable of doing what Koeman wants them to and struggling as a result.

The teams who will come in for Ross see him not as he is for Everton but how he will fit into their sides.

Will Mabon
24 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:57:32
"Don't you want quality player's to improve the squad or are you just obsessed with what happens to Ross Barkley. The mind boggles."

I think you might've boggled there, Trevor. Where do you get that I don't want quality players? Never said it, and in fact, the opposite if you read some of my other postings.

I don't want Barkley to go. We'll be the less for it if he goes. Sigurdsson is a good player, a different player to Barkley, not a better version of the same player. There's room for them both, or could be if it ever looks like Koeman wants to develop a genuine attacking team... and Everton as a club shake off the one-in-one-out philosophy of "Improving" the team.

Replacing Barkley with Sigurdsson will change the team but not improve it in my obsessed (read: concerned/interested) opinion.

James Macdonald
25 Posted 23/05/2017 at 09:57:42
James Stewart (#15), – if anything the assists stats rather than the chances created stats are a "joke" as surely the assists column is more a reflection of the finishing.

Anyway, looks like the club have made a serious move for Sigurdsson and presumably will eventually agree terms with him. I suspect that reflects not only Barkley's exit but also that Rooney will not be coming. I rate Sigurdsson but I am sure of my ground that he will be a downgrade on Barkley.

Will Mabon
26 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:05:33
"I reckon if I played as many games as Barkley then I would get better stats than him."

Always room for a bit of light relief.

Dan Egerton
27 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:06:20
"Anyone who actually watches Ross play sees that all his failings are ones which CAN'T be measured by stats."

Bang on. Same with Lukaku. When Lukaku isn't moving intelligently without the ball which causes a midfielder to move the ball sideways or backwards in order to keep it, no stat records that failed link up play for example.

Dan Egerton
28 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:07:40
"Yet it's the media outlets that use these stats to enhance the reputations of these bang average players."

Right again Dean. Most media writers don't watch all games. They just read the stats afterwards and assume. But fans watch their teams play, which is why opinions are often different from either group.

Gordon Crawford
29 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:12:21
If Barkley is crap then your in for a bigger shock when you seen how bad Sugurdsson is compared to Ross
Trevor Lynes
30 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:17:02
It is irrelevant whether Barkley is better than whoever. The lad will come out of contract and must be sold otherwise the club will make no money.

The employer is right to expect a fee when the lad leaves. He has been paid handsomely IMO and if he does not want to remain playing for Everton then he should be sold before he goes out on a free.

John Daley
31 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:24:31
"All this talk of stats all the time is just blind people trying to justify their opinion"

" it's the media outlets that use these stats to enhance the reputations of these bang average players."

-------------


"I look at his stats and his attributes and go, ‘Wow'. I think he's got the best stats in Europe (for tackles and interceptions) even though he's been to the African Nations, and that says it all"

Blind media meff looking to back up his big words or Director Of Football (and the bloke tasked with heading up recruitment) at Everton?


Brent Stephens
32 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:40:37
"Most media writers don't watch all games. They just read the stats afterwards and assume".

Do we know that? Is that based on stats about what media writers watch? or just assumption?

"But fans watch their teams play..."

So fans watch more games than media writers? Again, stat or assumption?

Paul Tran
33 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:42:56
Koeman is one in a long line of managers who find the link between Barkley's talent and lack of consistent impact infuriating. I share it.

Barkley might improve with better attack-minded players around him. If it was my job on the line I'd be thinking hard on this one.

Dermot Byrne
35 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:46:23
Brent I watch all games every weekend. Midweek tricky as it is group therapy time then and the anti-psychosis drugs make it hard to form a "strong and stable" opinion.
Brent Stephens
36 Posted 23/05/2017 at 10:51:02
Dermot, you must be "just about managing".
John G Davies
37 Posted 23/05/2017 at 11:13:54
The carry on here you would think we were looking to sell a world class player.

Barkley is a nearly man. Still talk about him potentially being a good player after 3 or 4 years.

Don Alexander
38 Posted 23/05/2017 at 11:54:44
I'm firmly in the "don't let stats blind you from the truth" camp.

One of the young Unsy squad a while back was quoted on here as saying he and Unsy were delighted that his stats were as high as they were. My heart sank a little. What about the craft, the inspiration?

It seems to me that agents use these stats to win arguments re contracts, so players concentrate on only the safe easy pass, or only the comfortable shot where they have loads and loads of time so as not to impair their stats.

If stats were available for doing naff all once the balls's been lost I'm pretty sure we'd have a couple of prime candidates at least from our squad and that, to me, is what frustrates the hell out of achieving success.

Dave Roberts
39 Posted 23/05/2017 at 13:52:14
Ross, this club has nurtured you, developed you, supported you and paid you a fortune in wages. In return, do us a favour and either sign your contract or ask for a transfer and fuck off.

After last night I'm not in the mood for your selfish fucking about. Get on with it or fuck off elsewhere.

John Pierce
40 Posted 23/05/2017 at 14:05:25
Let's be gentle on Ross, eh? A move might be good for him because he's stale. Will the nagging, never-ending headache of Martinez's sycophancy ever go away or is it just tinnitus? Both as equally annoying I'm sure. Go easy on him.

He has shown high elements of talent. That talent has been scant evident for some time and maybe Roberto took it with him to bequeath to some lucky Belgian under his charge?

When talent, or form let's say, deserts you, then hard work, and desire often gets you back to the place were the magic happened. Ross seems more 'Desire' than inspired and the only magic he's shown is how to disappear.

With many Evertonians, the saga has become an epic, and we are bored, so much so were Ross a company he'd be trading negatively now. Even signing a contract won't bring back the local boy love, he'll have to earn it now. That "small ship" has sailed.

But seriously, despite an underwhelming season, he should stay. Playing time would be limited elsewhere, Newcastle & West Ham excepted and having players of the same ilk should inspire him. So why not buy both the Swansea Viking and Lanzini and make them fight it out?

Are diamonds forever?

Michael Lynch
41 Posted 23/05/2017 at 14:16:12
If we were being offered Ross by another club for 㿏m and 𧴜k a week, I'd probably say yes please, he looks like our kind of player.

But having seen him play for us for a few years, I'm happy to see him move on. He's not setting the world on fire, and maybe his replacement won't either, but if we don't take the risk we'll be stuck with the same old same old for another season. Okay we finished 7th but I'd like to see some changes next time around.

Trevor Lynes
42 Posted 23/05/2017 at 14:25:22
If Barkley does not want to stay then why waste words on him? His contract will be up soon and he will be leaving without having the decency to allow EFC to get a proper fee for him.

He has been with us since his youth and his development has been with our club's coaching. He has earned loads of dosh and not really given back enough IMO.

Even though he is a local lad, I will not forgive him if he leaves our club in the lurch by just waiting for his contract to run down then bail out on a free. :(

Alex Doyle
43 Posted 23/05/2017 at 14:48:21
You would imagine he's getting sniffy at the prospect of not being automatic first choice. And Koeman needs to strengthen what is a pivotal position.

Barkley is dreaming if he thinks he is going to waltz into a top 4 side, but he must have offers from somewhere. It's a shame this could not have happened two years ago, it would have been an easier transition and Barkley could have learnt from a more polished and tactically aware 10.

Alan J Thompson
44 Posted 23/05/2017 at 15:03:53
I'm sorry, Koeman's been banging on about this for how long but decides today to speak to the Board about the player!

Some things never change, it's the Everton way and must be infectious or it's in the Manager's contract until he signs a new one at the end of the coming season. I mean, there's compensation money to consider.

Dan Parker
45 Posted 23/05/2017 at 15:07:53
It wouldn't be the first time the club has tried to turn the fans against an Evertonian player to try and force a move out. I wonder if the manager is at odds with Bill... ie, Koeman doesn't think he's good enough but Bill sees him as a true Blue and a key part of our future?
Eddie Dunn
46 Posted 23/05/2017 at 15:21:20
This whole scenario reminds me of every transfer window we have. Each summer comes along and there is a problem with recruitment.

Last year it was the Euros (players were so busy that business was done late). This year, it is poor Barkley's fault, the silly boy, not signing a new contract is holding-up business, oh and the bloody Europa League qualifying rounds is going to fuck up our preseason.

Oh yes preseason! Koeman didn't have enough of it last year either, coz he hadn't got his new Everton deal done early enough. What is common in all of this? Yes! Everton.

Our board are inept. What have they been planning all season? Did nobody realise any of these things was due to happen? It's a joke. Same old. We always end up in the last minute of the window with a pile of Average Joes.

Terry Underwood
47 Posted 23/05/2017 at 15:31:41
This is starting to get annoying. The player needs to piss or get off the pot.
David Graves
48 Posted 23/05/2017 at 15:52:05
Terry, it wouldn't have been so annoying if Koeman hadn't made his public announcements about what needed to happen and by when.

And why should Barkley hurry up? Contrary to Koeman's observations and ultimatums, Ross has the whip hand here doesn't he?

Michael Kenrick
49 Posted 23/05/2017 at 16:37:07
Gosh... let's try again:

Koeman didn't "make it public" – the contract stalling was in the public arena already (albeit as a dubious but subsequently proven entirely accurate press rumour) back in February. Koeman has simply answered journo questions professionally (as in "what he is paid to do as Everton manager appearing before the press in a press conference, where the press ask him questions, and he answers honestly as only Honest Ron can!").

Neither side "has the whip hand". Ross can sign or refuse to sign; the club can accept his decision or withdraw the contract offer and put him up for sale.

Let's not make shit up please.

Christine Foster
50 Posted 23/05/2017 at 16:37:36
Martin Mason, beggars belief but I agree with you entirely. So much for an ultimatum. Looks rather silly now after all his bluster.

Ross didn't look as though his heart is in it against Arsenal, but then neither did the other 12... But I will say this, the way Everton set up does Barkley no favours.

If you are asking him to play behind Lukaku, then just who is he expected to play a defence splitting pass to? Our 503rd mover? Hit a shot from 35 yards? Where is the overlap? Where are the runners to play the ball behind?

It's not Barkley that's the problem – it's having 3 or 4 defenders in midfield and no-one making runs. It's the way we are set up and the lack of pace and quality in those around him.

Holgate has been a disaster and we miss Coleman badly, and he wasn't having a great season... Baines hardly puts in a cross these days and Barry, Davis, McCarthy and Gana are all stoppers, not attacking midfielders. What's left is Mirallas who gives more options but a one-trick pony, Valencia will be gone, Koeman has said it himself, we have no options... but Barkley should not and cannot carry the team.

If both Lukaku and Barkley leave then its a bad day for the club because we do not have the quality around them to allow them to shine. Doesn't matter who you play in Barkley's position, play the same way with the same team and set up around him, the result will be the same. Barkley knows this, Lukaku knows this, Koeman knows this, Walsh knows this... but TW doesn't.


David Graves
51 Posted 23/05/2017 at 16:50:02
So Ross doesn't have the whip hand then? Who looks stupid now – player or club? Where was the statement on Monday that Koeman so clearly discussed with the press?

And I'm sorry but to suggest that Koeman's discussions with the press and his publicly stated ultimatums are "professional" is indeed making shit up.

Martin Mason
52 Posted 23/05/2017 at 16:56:03
Thank you Christine and I agree entirely with your analysis.
David Graves
53 Posted 23/05/2017 at 17:10:04
Very good Christine.

"Doesn't matter who you play in Barkley's position, play the same way with the same team and set up around him, the result will be the same."

I think he could help himself by getting into the final third more or the 'third man run' that the coaches love to call it but how much of his reluctance to do so is coaching instruction?

Patrick Murphy
54 Posted 23/05/2017 at 17:23:34
I've rarely seen Everton sides, save when Peter Beardsley was wearing a blue shirt, that was reliant upon a single player to produce the goods. The difference is that Peter could do that, patently Ross is not as reliable or arguably as talented as Beardsley.

In a team so bereft of talent as some on here and elsewhere argue, we can't afford passengers and we have too many in the team and the squad, and that includes Barkley and Lukaku – when he's not finding the back of the net.

I think I posed the question about half-a-dozen games into the season, should a manager ask his players to play to his preferred system or should the manager change his preferred system to suit the available players?

That question still remains largely unanswered because the dips in form both from individual players and the team as a whole would indicate that some of the players can't produce regularly in Koeman's set-up, but those same players couldn't produce regularly for Roberto either.

I don't really care whether individual players have their noses put out of joint due to the managers decisions but I do care that, when an Everton player enters the field of play, he is fully committed to the cause and gives 100% every time, unfortunately that cannot be said of too many of our current squad in the last few seasons, under two different managers.

If Ross does decide to remain at Goodison by extending his contract then I hope he shows a little more enthusiasm than Kevin Mirallas did last Sunday, following his signing of a new deal.

Every player new or old should feel that their place is under threat every game, unless they produce the goods, unfortunately that hasn't always been the case in the last few years and it looks as if some of our 'star' players believe they should be in the starting line-up regardless of their performance levels.

Players and managers come and go, but the culture of the club can be ruined all too easily, by either or both, somewhere along the line some of our better players have forgotten that hard work should be a given and that the fans will accept uneven performances on occasion if the desire and drive are there but the talent or form goes missing.

Everton has never been a good fit for prima donnas, homegrown or bought in, whether Ross or other first team players or even the manager, deserve that label, I'm not too sure, but I do wish that they would all just get on with what they are paid to do and produce a team that we can all be well and truly proud of, with or without our 'star' players.

Michael Kenrick
55 Posted 23/05/2017 at 17:27:28
David, what I was trying to say is any talk of "whip hands" is off the mark.

And neither side "looks stupid"; both parties are at an impasse – have been for months. Yes, we await the promised statement (no-one said when it would be coming, though...)

One party has offered a contract it has claimed publicly to be a "good contract"; the other party has said nothing about it but significantly has refused (so far) to sign it.

There are consequences on both sides for both parties, whether Barkley signs it or whether Barkley does not.

And Koeman has been the consummate professional throughout. He is the Everton manager, he has the responsibility for building the team, for making it work, for getting results. (Not great so far... but he's only at Year 1 of a 3-year 'project' – Arrrgh!)

He has the professional task of fronting the club to the press and he does that job very professionally, responding as required to questions from the press. Read his blog post at ESPN. The work of a true professional!

David Graves
56 Posted 23/05/2017 at 17:42:33
Michael I wasn't contributing to the debate regards Koeman's progress this year or even whether Barkley should stay or go. I just don't believe that the manager has played this particular scenario very well. You believe that he has managed his dealings with the media professionally – I don't and his statement that there would be an "announcement" on Monday was at best ill-advised. He doesn't always have to respond to the questions from the press does he?
Don Alexander
57 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:00:00
He's been with us under three different managers and not improved.

He's had three England managers and now doesn't get selected (and I suggest England have trained him with way more mobile, intelligent forwards than we have so why's he been given the boot?).

He's played 150 games in five seasons but as every season passes he seems to be not quite as good with the ball as he was the season before, and, sadly, he wasn't consistently very good in the first place (but, as a mere kid, I allowed him that, expecting him to practice to improve).

Yes, he's shown some momentary sublime skill but only scored two whole goals of particular individual quality (versus a crap Newcastle and against Man City two or three years ago).

Factor in that his body language is generally anonymous, he seems to be all but voiceless when playing, that he's virtually non-existent in trying to win the ball back and, really, why does anyone, including him, think he'd be viable as the fulcrum of a Champions League attack anywhere in the country?

Lev Vellene
58 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:04:29
Erm, wasn't he supposed to "talk" on Monday, and then there would be a statement after that (no time specified for that statement)? I always expected that to be Tuesday, or at least within a few days after Monday. But then, I just read the words without filtering them through my personal assumptions-filter...

Then, as the Echo reported, there were seemingly still some talks going on; so I shrugged and am still waiting, even if it's impatiently! I can only assume that there is no clear Yes or No from either side, but that the parties are still within reach of each others' wants and needs.

If Barkley definitely didn't want to sign a new contract, I can see no reason we wouldn't know by now! Of course, the more likely scenario could be that he (and/or is agent) was hoping to be able to delay signing to see if there were big money interest during the summer, and then make a show of signing if none turned up...

John Pierce
60 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:18:32
Christine, I happen to agree with your assessment of why, in part, Ross struggles... but that's were it ends. Koeman's formations a defensive and pragmatic, are no friend of Ross Barkley.

I think Ross has an Everton future but has much to do himself to change that.

Ross has proven he can't hack the work rate in the middle of the park and as soon as January came he was shunted to a wide right berth, displaced by Schneiderlin and Davies.

He was given a chance to play with little defensive responsibility and concentrate on the attacking part. He had a right back who is no statute helping him and a centre-forward despite valid criticism who was scoring at home.

He has in 4 years only assisted Lukaku 4 times! (Cheetham; Sky) Whilst I could happily burden Rom with the lions share of blame, Ross has to do better to provide for our main source of goals.

So he has had 6 months to show he can be the man. His skills levels are such that it wasn't unrealistic. Not seen it, me. Sorry, just not evident.

However if he is as good as you and other of his supporters think, surely he would have found a way around the limitations of the system, worked out that our centre-forward prefers the ball quick and in front of him? Nope, nadda.

Work to do, not insurmountable but pivotal for him as a player, or I fear he might just fade from view as Rodwell did. Horrible comparison but relevant maybe Shaun Wright-Phillips or other top 6 bench warmers might be better example.

Oliver Molloy
61 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:19:30
Martin Mason,

I keep asking people who are accusing Koeman of bullying Barkley to explain to me how this bullying has taken place. I have seen or heard no bullying or am I missing something?

Manager says he wants to work with and keep Everton's good players.
Manager says Barkley is a good player.
Manager says there is a contract ready to sign for Barkley.
Manager says contract is normal for this type of player.
Manager states clearly he wants Barkley to stay at Everton.
Manager says if Barkley doesn't sign the contract that he will be sold.

Barkley says nothing (and yes, he is entitled to do this)

Now, please explain how the manager is bullying.

He is simply stating the obvious isn't he ?
Like, if Barkley was allowed to run down his contract, that would be great business.
Hasn't this club messed up enough already without letting a saleable asset run down their contract.
Koeman is the manager (like it or lump it) and Barkley is just another footballer – yes just another footballer.

I'm happy we have a straight talking manager at least.

In my opinion, Barkley reckons he is worth a load more money than what's on the table which is rumoured to be 𧴜 grand or thereabouts (with bonuses included).

Don't forget, the manager is usually the communicator of the club in most cases – Kenwright and Moshiri are the two that should be saying what's going on.

Expect some spin soon!


Rick Tarleton
62 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:24:45
I fear he'll go and, like Christine Foster, I fear he's the victim of the way Everton play and their lack of movement. Koeman hasn't exactly man-managed him very well. The firm hand is fine, but it can't be the only approach in this day and age. Koeman's pointed out every mistake, but rarely given him praise.

I don't see Barkley as a trouble-maker, he's too quiet for that role, Everton never give him the post-match interview job. Perhaps Koeman wants him to be more assertive, but some players aren't. Alex Young was a quiet retiring fellow and there have been few greater players than him.

Before anyone jumps him I'm not comparing them as players, just as quiet, but talented footballers. Catterick tried very hard to replace Young with Wignall, and, of course, Royle's debut was far too premature. Managers love personalities.

if we let him go, it'll rank with Catterick's three big mistakes when he got rid of players before their time: Collins, Vernon and Ball.

If Barkley had someone like Kane or Costa ahead of him we might see his potential being fulfilled.

David Barks
63 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:25:33
Man, I wish someone would bully me by asking repeatedly that I sign a contract for millions of dollars to stay at my current employer. What a world, oh the humanity.
Martin Mason
64 Posted 23/05/2017 at 18:35:45
Real Madrid have just paid 㿒M on a 16-year-old Brazilian, a young Belgian has turned down Man City for Monaco at a similar price. We've had a ١M bid for a young QPR midfielder turned down. Swansea have laughed at our 㿅M bid for Sigurdsson.

It really is a big call now for Everton to be successful in the transfer market to the degree needed to take a step past Man Utd to 6th. United themselves with comparatively unlimited resources are badly positioned to be able to gain a place themselves.

Having some money now isn't enough by itself.

Clive Mitchell
65 Posted 23/05/2017 at 20:01:55
It's reported (who knows if it's true) that Sigurdsson wants ٤+ million a year to come to us. It's reported that Ross has been offered ٣ million a year to stay. Sigurdsson is much older and his value will fall.

If I were Ross, I'd get my agent to tell the club that, since the only players to have created more chances this season are Erksen, De Bruyne, Ozil and Hazard, and since my value of 㿞 million will rise in the coming years, I'd stay for ٥+ million a year. But then he might have decided already that the manager wants him out so he won't sign for any money.

Who knows what's really happening in the background, but it beggars belief that Everton have handled this the way they have. Unbelievably stupid.

Rick Tarleton
66 Posted 23/05/2017 at 21:46:52
That sounds a sensible and fair summing up of the situation, Clive (#65).
I've not known a dislike of a local talented player of this ferocity, since Derek Temple was trying to make his way in the late fifties. He too was a quiet local lad of immense talent who a portion of the crowd did not take to.
Stan Schofield
67 Posted 23/05/2017 at 23:13:29
If many of the recent Barkley posts on TW are anything to go by, the way Everton have dealt publicly with his contractual situation has created a lot of ill-feeling towards him. This could not have happened if the matters had been handled purely in-house as they should have been.

Astonishingly unprofessional by Koeman and Everton. It beggars belief that contractual matters between two parties could have been handled in this tacky manner.

Kenny Smith
68 Posted 23/05/2017 at 23:24:13
Stan, Koeman has called him out and has his manager he has the right to do so. I wish more managers would do it cos it might readjust the balance when it comes to player power vs the clubs who employ them.

The fact it's been done in public is a decision by his manager in an effort to clarify if he needs to find a better player for that position. I'd suggest he does, as would anyone who's seen Barkley play regularly and isn't looking at this situation through sentimental rose-tinted glasses.

Paul Ferry
69 Posted 24/05/2017 at 02:17:48
Dan Parker 45 - 'It wouldn't be the first time the club has tried to turn the fans against an Evertonian player to try and force a move out'.

Give me details about when this has happened before please - no silly idle gossip please.

Facts!

I ask this as in my opinion your reading of the Barkley situation is ridiculous Dan and so I would like you to give the earlier examples of the club deliberately turning fans against a player so that I might be able to reach a more balanced position.

Michael Kenrick
70 Posted 24/05/2017 at 05:54:34
Got that "unprofessional" record back on and stuck in the grove, eh, Stan? I thought you said you were averse to needless repetition on here?

Listen, this has nothing to do with "the way Everton have dealt publicly with his contract situation" – what contract details, clauses, provisions have been made public by the club? Absolutely nothing. All they have done is confirmed the rumours out in the public arena. For once, they have been honest about a situation that concerns many Evertonians.

A rumour went around that Barkley was not keen on signing a new contract; the manager – in his professional role as club spokesperson at press conferences, responded to questions from journalists, as his professional position at the club requires him to do. The cat was out of the bag already.

That has had nothing, zero, zilch to do with generating any ill-feeling toward Barkley. If people are annoyed with Ross, it is because he's not signed the contract to play for Everton. A local lad... that is almost unthinkable!!!

And they're also a little less annoyed with him, more saddened by the fact that he has so palpably failed to take this tremendous opportunity to play his absolute best for this club... His club. How could he possibly hold the club to ransom like he has? To many, it's unthinkable! But, because he's a local lad, and we so desperately want him to succeed for us, he's actually getting off lightly.

The matter is being dealt with completely in house; nothing about the contractual impasse has been made public. No explanation has been given about why Barkley won't sign what the club believe is a perfectly good contract. All that has been said is he will be put up for sale if he does not sign. Perhaps that was Honest Professional Ron being a little too honest for some... but most recognize it for exactly what it is – a business imperative created by Barkley's decision not to sign his new contract.

Koeman and Everton have been completely professional about this. Contractual matters remain completely in-house. It is ridiculous to expect the club to ignore rumours about their own player when raised by journalists in press conferences. Sad, perhaps, but it was almost certainly Barkley's camp that put it out in the public arena in the first place.

Sorry but I have no concerns about how it's been handled subsequently – especially as it's already happened and cannot be undone. The fact is that one of our own is refusing to sign, and is forcing the professionals who run the club to make a business decision they don't want to make. They want to keep him – otherwise, why even offer him a contract???


Stan Schofield
71 Posted 24/05/2017 at 06:47:18
Michael, although the needle is stuck in the groove, you still can't recognise the tune.
Will Mabon
72 Posted 24/05/2017 at 07:05:31
"Sad, perhaps, but it was almost certainly Barkley's camp that put it out in the public arena in the first place."

Now that's what I call speculation.

James Watts
73 Posted 24/05/2017 at 07:15:51
Christine (and those that agree it's down to tactics) #50. Errmmm, why was Barkley also crap for 2 out of 3 Martinez seasons when we supposedly played attacking football? And we've scored a shed load of goals at home yet Ross has been dire apart from approx 3 months of this season too.

I agree lazy arse Lukaku doesn't help but it's only a small contributing reason why Ross has been shite for the majority of the last 3 seasons.

If you watch the Arsenal game back Ross had several options to play the ball to players making runs, but he instead chose to keep it and make the wrong decision. As usual.

It's a much simpler explanation for me. Ross simply is just not very good. He's okay, just not great. Too many wrong decisions which can't be coached out of him and wouldn't matter if he played with someone like Vardy.

Tony Abrahams
74 Posted 24/05/2017 at 07:37:12
Michael, I would have to go along with your very accurate speculation (it is to me anyway) because, if Barkley had signed a new contract, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Football's gone fucking mad, especially when you have Clive saying Barkley should ask for ٥+ million a year, and Rick then saying that seems like a fair summing up of the situation!

Fools the lot of us, especially Koeman, for trying to dig Ross out!

Nev Renshaw
75 Posted 24/05/2017 at 07:57:20
Get rid of him. If he really wanted to play for us, he'd have signed by now. No point in trying to hang on to somebody who's heart isn't in it.
Trevor Peers
76 Posted 24/05/2017 at 08:00:14
Well said, Michael, Ross's career looks to have almost run it's course with the Blues, he has chosen to leave for his own personal reasons whatever they may be. Blaming Koeman is ridiculous, he offered him a new contract, what more could he do?

If and when he leaves, it will have all been a huge disappointment; for the three seasons he did play, there where only ever flashes of brilliance and he never managed to play anywhere the consistent level required to be a star Premier League player.

It will leave the present squad even smaller and we need to recruit quickly and in numbers. This should be the priority, not playing the blame game as to why successive manager's could not get the best out of Barkley, that will all be history soon.

John Daley
77 Posted 24/05/2017 at 08:09:37
"what contract details, clauses, provisions have been made public by the club? Absolutely nothing"

Followed by:

"How could he possibly hold the club to ransom like he has?"

At least you're consistent in your contrariness, Michael.

Don Alexander
78 Posted 24/05/2017 at 08:10:35
You sum it up well, Michael. Rooney at his peak pulled the same contract stunt at Man Utd, of course, but the difference there was he was deservedly first name on the team-sheet and performed to the max, consistently.

Consequently, his standing amongst lots of their fans diminished a lot because of his antics. I wonder if Ross has thought about that...

Terry Underwood
79 Posted 24/05/2017 at 08:49:40
If Ross Barkley is waiting for a fantastic offer from one of the big money boys, he could be waiting a long time...

Oh wait – aren't we a big money boy now?

Mike Green
80 Posted 24/05/2017 at 09:02:00
Spot on Michael Kenrick – I'm sure I heard Koeman say he would talk to the board on Monday and they would make a statement about the situation. I appears I misheard him and what he actually said was:

Interviewer: “So Ronko – I can call you Ronko, can't I? Give us the dirt on Ross, what's going on? Come on, come on, come on…dish it Ronko, dish it….”

Koeman: “Of course you can (insert nickname), and yeah, no problem, of course. Well here's the thing. We've offered Barkley a 3 year extension based on 㿼k a week – so that's a 㾸m contract. There are standard clauses in there to protect him from injury and a release clause of 㿞m – which we've already leaked to the press on purpose as this is our asking fee for him. To be honest putting that in there is to his advantage, not ours, as if someone offers it and he wants to go we cant stop him. OK?”

Interviewer: “So why's he not signing – it's the money isn't it Ronko? Isn't it. Greedy little bastard…”

Koeman: “No, I don't think so. He seems happy with the financials. He's a down to earth lad and recognises he's a rich man already.”

Interviewer: “So – what is it? Is it the “Champions League” chestnut? Is it Ronko? Come on, spill it for the fans…”

Koeman: “He's mentioned it, of course. You know this is what they all say. That and image rights. Duvet covers, that sort of thing. But he's an Evertonian, which I believe, and that's important to him. Not like that twat Lukaku. I'll tell you all about Rom after this if you've got time in the show – unbelievable stuff. Either that or in the bar – we are going out after aren't we? Any way – no. What he wants in his contract is a “StopDrop” clause putting in.”

Interviewer: “A “StopDrop” clause? I've never heard of that – what's that when it's at home Ronko?”

Koeman: “It's a new thing. Basically he says that he's been disrespected by the club by being dropped. It's bad for his international profile – and even worse for his duvet cover sales, which his agent got very angry about in our last meeting. The “StopDrop” clause enables him to choose which games he does and doesn't want to play in.”

Interviewer: “Oh….erm…and what's wrong with that Ronko…?”

Koeman: “Well, I don't think that's his choice. As the manager I think it's up to me whether he plays or not.”

Interviewer: Cue belly laughs from Interviewer “What?! Hahahaha – you're a joker Ronko, you really are? Up to you?! How to run the team? You're a fucking deadbeat Ron! A “has been” – you're nothing! What the fuck do you know! Hahaha – I've heard it all now. “Up to me”. Brilliant! Who do you think you are Ronko? Jock Fucking Stein? “Up to me”….wait till I tell the lads…hahaha! Fucking priceless!” (walking off)

Koeman: “Hey, mate…where are you going…? I thought we were going for a drink? I've got loads more on Rom that you don't know. And Jags. And the Docks – it's a farce the whole thing, we're really moving to Malaysia, part of the big plan…..and Moshiri…I've got loads on Mo…..mate.. come back….what about that drink….? I've got some puff too…come on….”

But I'm sure what I heard was he was going to talk to the board on Monday and then they would make a statement….? Perhaps I was wrong.

Dave Abrahams
81 Posted 24/05/2017 at 09:30:56
Sounds fine to me, Michael. Ross has been offered a new contract with better terms, I presume, which surprises me to be honest – you usually have to have improved as a player to get an increase. I ask honestly: Has Ross improved to an extent were it is very noticeable?
Ken Buckley
82 Posted 24/05/2017 at 09:34:21
The puzzling thing about this whole saga is there is no info or gossip as to why the stand off by Ross and his agent.

Previous situations with players who wanted away was that there was a club wanting them and turning their heads: Man City with Stones and, before him, Lescott; Real Madrid with Tommy Gravesen; Man Utd with Rooney – and boy, do they make it public.

With Ross, not a peep from any of the so-called big boys or anyone come to that.

Very strange goings on – not even wild guesses from the Red Tops.

Stan Schofield
83 Posted 24/05/2017 at 12:48:11
Ken, yes, as you say, no information. But that hasn't stopped a lot of posts on TW saying 'sign or fuck off', 'he's holding the club to ransom', 'he's pulling a contract stunt', and various other bits of shite. All while Barkley has said nothing.
Craig Walker
84 Posted 24/05/2017 at 12:52:23
I was a big fan of Ross. I desperately wanted him to be the player we hoped he would be: a new hero to add to the list of greats that have worn the blue shirt in our history.

I actually hope he moves on now. I think that if he went to one of our competitors, he would actually weaken them. There is no way we should be offering him a bumper contract and as a result, not strengthening our own team.

He is a luxury player who can turn it on at home against the Bournemouths of this world. In the big games, it's akin to playing with 10 men at times. Statistics show that he creates chances and goals but they don't show the terrible decision-making and attitude where the game just passes him by.

We've had some great memories of Ross in a blue shirt but unfortunately it's been too little and there are better options out there. I'll be disappointed if he does commit to Everton. Sad.

Colin Glassar
85 Posted 24/05/2017 at 13:00:42
Can it be that Ross has just fallen out of love with football? I know it's a long shot but that Instagram photo could be telling.

He wouldn't be the first footballer who peaked at a very early age and might not have the passion he once felt for the game. He is a very rich young man whose light might've burnt out.

Kieran Kinsella
86 Posted 24/05/2017 at 13:40:55
With Ross retiring... will we have to give him a testimonial?

Or is it only based on 10 years in the first team?

Kieran Kinsella
87 Posted 24/05/2017 at 14:05:18
Leon Osman is losing the plot. Two weeks ago he said Ross hadn't improved since he was 18. Today he's saying he'd be perfect for Man Utd. Yeah cause Mourinho is well known for indulging luxury flair players who don't put in a shift.

He also says Ross is one of the best players in the Premier League. Given that he hasn't progressed since he was 18 when Leon kept him out of the team. Is Leon trying to snare a new contract by insinuating he's be the best player in the Premier League nowadays?

Colin Glassar
88 Posted 24/05/2017 at 14:22:36
Kieran, footballers aren't, generally, the sharpest tools in the box so when a former player is asked a question (especially if they're getting paid for it) they will often contradict themselves.

A good case in point is Niall Quinn who was asked about some Man City player moving to another club. Quinn, with a straight face, replied, "I don't like to talk about players who are still under contract". Well, blow me down, Niall, that's what you normally do every time you're on the box. Or does that rule just apply to former clubs?

When players start talking shite on the telly, or in the papers, a warning sign should come up telling us not to pay too much attention as it's just their groundless opinion.

Michael Kenrick
89 Posted 24/05/2017 at 14:57:12
Phew... no dissertation, John? Does that mean you are weakening and seeing the light???

Yes, okay... "holding the club to ransom" might be a wee little bit of a stretch. It makes the perhaps sizeable assumption that there is something more his lot want to see in the contract, and then he would sign.

But your inference is right: he may have decided nothing will make him sign. If that is the case, then people have every right to say "get rid" coz he is turning his back on us in a much worse way than Rooney.

What a contrast eh?

Kenwright on Rooney: "We won't sell him, even for £50M."

Everton on Barkley "Sign or we'll sell you for £50M."

Why would they do that, Stan? (#83) – Because he is "pulling a contract stunt"!!!

Love it, Mr Green (#80) – You captured Ronko with his pants down. He really is shockingly unprofessional, giving all that away and not even getting a drink for his troubles.

Will (#72) how else would a journo, back in February mind, basically nail the whole saga?

Everton star ready to spark transfer frenzy by delaying contract decision

Oh of course... he just made it up, didn't he. Silly me.

Stan Schofield
90 Posted 24/05/2017 at 15:06:18
Michael, I don't recall seeing an announcement from Everton that he'll be sold for £50M, merely a press report, most of which are speculative shite. But you seem prone to taking such stuff seriously. Apart from stating the obvious (to some of us) that it's unwise to do that, given that you do, there's really not much point discussing any further is there really?
Alan J Thompson
91 Posted 24/05/2017 at 15:35:54
Ken (#82);

I thought that a move to Spurs was rumoured quite some time ago and then recently Spurs said that at the price Sigurdsson was better value than Barkley at Everton's asking price of 㿞M.

All hearsay, of course.

Jay Harris
92 Posted 24/05/2017 at 15:48:52
Alan, I heard something similar.

"Spurs representatives had met with Barkley's representatives but, after the meeting, their interest had cooled".

Only speculation on my part but I think Barkley is after some reassurance on game time cos he wants to get back in the England setup and is concerned about all the players we are supposed to be signing.

For all those waxing lyrical about Ross, ask yourself does he even come close to Hazard, Willian, Eriksen, Dele Alli, Son etc who have all scored lots of goals as well as looking interested on the pitch.

Ross is built like the perfect centre-forward and has tremendous natural talent but never imposes himself on a game... and okay, you can say our movement up front isn't great – but there are times when he could do a lot more.

Alan J Thompson
93 Posted 24/05/2017 at 15:56:06
Jay (#92);

Of the five players you mention only one is eligible for England, no? Apart from his skill, my liking of Barkley is that he makes himself available to take a pass which can't be said of at least 8 of his teammates well, not in the opposition's half anyway.

John Daley
94 Posted 24/05/2017 at 16:56:23
"Sad, perhaps, but it was almost certainly Barkley's camp that put it out in the public arena in the first place."

"...how else would a journo, back in February mind, basically nail the whole saga?

Oh of course... he just made it up, didn't he. Silly me."

-----------

"A story from the Daily Star about a brand-new Grand Theft Auto game based on real-life killer Raoul Moat has been pulled following an uproar over the fact that the U.K. news site made the whole thing up."

Link

• ToffeeWeb editor Michael Kenrick has decided not to cancel his pre-order, just in case, because there's 'no smoke, without fire' and a journalist for the Star would surely never make shit up (err...even though, a few years back, there was that widely publicised resignation letter from one of their employees fessing up to the fact that he and his colleagues regularly plucked fake stories out their arse under explicit instruction from their boss).

----------

"What a contrast eh?

Kenwright on Rooney: "We won't sell him, even for £50M."

Everton on Barkley "Sign or we'll sell you for £50M."

Contrast? Let's see.

The first was a posturing pack of bollocks and was always likely to be proven to be so.

The second is a posturing pack of boll...err...Wait on a minute, Michael! What are you trying to pull here?

Michael Kenrick
95 Posted 24/05/2017 at 17:19:46
Because it was in the Daily Star and not the Grauniad ["This article is 6 years old"] it was obviously made up. And – even though it seems to nail what few facts there are in this particular saga ("contract delay" – a pretty specific description of what has been going on over the last three months) we must therefore, like good fact-checkers, kick it to the kerb?

Sorry John, but there's false logic to your underlying premise. Be skeptical by all means, but when it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... How else do they come up with "contract delay"?

Will Mabon
96 Posted 24/05/2017 at 17:33:21
Michael, 89:

"But the midfielder, who does not appear to have had the smoothest of relationships with Koeman since he arrived at Goodison Park last summer is in no rush to extend his deal."

Yes, I see it - but it came from where?

I can imagine the relationship was not ideal due to seeing Koeman's rather overt scapegoating, which is recorded on film. That kind of thing is taken into account when considering one's working circumstance.

To say Barkley's camp actively released that to the press, is speculation.

Tony Abrahams
97 Posted 24/05/2017 at 19:22:08
What was this overt scapegoating, Will? Did he Blame him for giving away a goal, or for not working hard enough, or was it his lack of consistency?

Martinez did Barkley no favours, other than turning him into a regular starter for Everton, which should have stood Ross in very good stead with regards to experience but he never improved him as a player, and it's possible the kid was even going backwards.

Step forward Ronald Koeman, who gave Ross a few home truths perhaps? And he might have even got him pointing in the right direction once again because the kid is slowly starting to show a lot more consistency. But he's still a long way from being anywhere near the finished article and maybe this is why we have got this stand-off?

No way will Koeman be deciding how much money the club should pay Ross every week, but he might say he doesn't think he's worth paying what Ross's agent is asking for?

Michael Kenrick
98 Posted 24/05/2017 at 20:40:57
Will (#96), if the burden of proof here is "beyond all reasonable doubt"? – Then no: fail.

But if the burden of proof is a more reasonable balance of probabilities, then yes, I would say it is more likely than not that this story included sources close to Barkley.

It is very unusual for speculative player-related stories to talk of players delaying their decision on a contract that is (or will be) put before them — rather specific wording which seems to be exactly what Barkley is doing in that he hasn't said he will not sign; neither has he said he will sign; nor that he wants more money; nor more playing time... nor more image rights... nor that he wants to leave... nor that he wants to join Spurs, Man Utd etc. None of that in the story. And none of that reported subsequently.

Therefore, on the balance of probabilities, this story, effectively coming out of nowhere, seems to be pretty much spot on — three months later and nothing has come up that would let you say "Nah, bullshit. It's in the Daily Star.. they obviously just made it up."

No, I put it to you that, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely than not that someone in the Barkley camp helped them with this story. More likely than someone from the club. (That has a lower probability in my view, but still possible.)

More likely that it was completely made up, as John seems to be suggesting? Well, I want their lottery numbers in that case.

Chris Williams
99 Posted 24/05/2017 at 20:53:51
Michael,

Please stop, you're just encouraging what has become a circular argument. People in entrenched positions writing ever longer posts, communicating through megaphones. There is no right or wrong in this, no real facts just opinions, repeated over and over again.

It has long become tiresome.

Patrick Murphy
100 Posted 24/05/2017 at 22:51:51
David Maddock in the Daily Mirror reckons that Everton FC have given up hope of Ross signing a new contract. There are no quotes or direct links to any of the major players at the club - so it could be supposition on his part, however, it does look as if the end of the road has been reached between the club and the player.


End Of The Road?

Stan Schofield
101 Posted 25/05/2017 at 08:12:26
Michael@98: I wasn't going to bother commenting any more, but I can't resist after your using the phrase 'balance of probabilities'. I've seen this used before by folks attempting to justify their use of an unreliable media source or piece of gossip.

I can understand you not attempting to justify your sources on the basis of 'beyond reasonable doubt', which is a strong burden of proof. But, are you really willing to use 'balance of probabilities'? I ask you this because, really, this is also a strong burden of proof, albeit not as strong as the other one.

'Balance of probabilities' is the burden of proof for civil legal cases. Are you really saying that you regard the 'evidence' you use @98 as strong enough to give you confidence to, say, launch a civil legal case on the basis of it, and thereby risk all the costs entailed by potentially losing such a case? Really?

Laura Round
102 Posted 25/05/2017 at 12:37:03
No England call-up. Apparently he's got a slight injury...
Michael Kenrick
103 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:18:39
No, Stan. You are correct about the distinction but I think you take it too far.

I'm treating it literally, because it is more likely than not that the journalist in question had some sort of tip-off (see other thread), more likely than not from someone close to or in the Barkley camp. I say that only with the benefit of hindsight given the apparent accuracy of the story when compared with subsequent events.

But, no, I will not be launching a civil legal case on the strength of it. Strange that you should think that. Really strange...

Phil Bellis
104 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:27:23
Yep, Laura... problem with his signing hand, apparently.
Tom Bowers
105 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:39:09
A Mexican stand-off? Has the indifferent form of Ross got Everton balking at an increased offer or is Ross just sulking and really wanting a new club?

We really don't know but I am sure it will all be resolved soon but I cannot see things remaining the same now that an ultimatum was issued by Ron.

My guess is that Ross will leave but nobody has really shown an interest so far that we know of.

David Barks
106 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:42:56
Tom,

The fresh reports are stating Ross has stood by his decision to not sign the contract on offer, not that the club are unsure whether they want him to. All the word coming from the Everton camp is saying there is a contract offer that they want Barkley to sign.

If it was a case of no contract being there to sign, Barkleys camp would absolutely have come out and said so. They haven't.

There is a contract. He doesn't want to stay. It seems to be that simple at this point. Only question they appears to remain is whether anybody will offer money for him to go elsewhere.

Shane Corcoran
107 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:51:55
I haven't really partaken in the Barkley chat so apologies if this has been guessed at before.

Is there any whispers about why he's not signing? Surely a true blue couldn't turn his back on his club?

Does he not get on with the manager? Does he think the manager doesn't rate him? Is it cash he's after? Has he been told/does he assume that another club wants him?

In the absence of facts, opinions are welcome.

Steve Ferns
108 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:53:49
Sorry to be a pedant, but you guys keep mentioning "the burden of proof" incorrectly.

The burden of proof is a legal phrase referring to who must prove the case, that is the Crown Prosecution Service in most criminal matters, or the Applicant in most civil cases.

What you guys are actually on about, is the Standard of Proof. Which is nearly always, "Beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal matters, or "on the balance of probabilities" in civil matters.

Hope that clears that up.

David Barks
109 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:55:14
Shane,

Absolutely nothing has been said or leaked by his camp as to why he won't sign, so there isn't really anything to base an opinion off of. To do so is nothing but completely baseless speculation. His camp has said nothing publicly. But the club has said there is a contract for him to sign, and he will not sign it.

Stan Schofield
110 Posted 25/05/2017 at 16:58:30
Michael, perhaps you find my mention of a civil legal case strange because you didn't read @101 properly. I didn't ask you if you would be launching a civil legal case, I merely posed a hypothetical scenario to illustrate the burden of proof implicit in 'balance of probabilities'. You were the one who first mentioned the two burdens of proof.

It appears from your answer that you don't really know what you mean.

Shane Corcoran
111 Posted 25/05/2017 at 17:05:20
Thanks David.

Maybe journalists really do work off tip-offs as you'd expect some sort of speculation one way or another.

Stan Schofield
112 Posted 25/05/2017 at 17:07:45
Steve@108: Thanks. Never thought about it, but I can see the 'burden' is on the person making the argument, whereas the 'standard' is the 'rigour' (or something like that) being used. In this case, Michael is trying to make an argument, but a fairly waffly (not very rigorous) one.
Trevor Peers
113 Posted 25/05/2017 at 17:12:43
The fact that there has been no comment from Barkley or his agent, suggests he might well be willing to run down his contract and get the huge wage increase he's looking for.

That seems the most likely outcome. The chances of anyone paying £50 million for him are zero.

Michael Kenrick
114 Posted 25/05/2017 at 18:03:58
Thanks for the correction, Steve.

Stan, I know exactly what I mean and I've said it multiple times, to the point of exasperation for some readers (Sorry Chris!).

Apologies for having to resort to this, but please reread my posts and see if you can understand the points being made. It is a better option, I assure you, than having me repost the entire premise for the umpteenth time.

Sorry, that sounds disingenuous. Have you considered that confirmation bias is not going to allow either of us to adopt the other's perspective on this? I suggest we stop now unless you really think I can help you further.

Michael Kenrick
115 Posted 25/05/2017 at 19:03:46
I would just add that these latest developments reported in The Mirror (Thanks, Patrick #100) are desperately sad for me, if I allow myself to believe them.

What makes no sense is that Barkley was (by implication) stalling from the summer of last year (or earlier, if you take "12 months" literally). That puts it before the arrival of Koeman!!!

I'm guessing Barkley knew his career trajectory was stalling under Martinez, but why would he not have had new hope under the incoming new manager?

Okay, no smoke without fire... we have to conclude that he really does not get on with, or vehemently dislikes Koeman and wants out for that reason – why else would he not sign??? [Stan: no proof, no evidence, just a preponderance of probability, based on reading numerous possibly fallacious newspaper reports etc...]

To go a whole year in this state of limbo has to have been a significant burden on his performance level and degree of confidence in himself – that has to factor into his "indifferent" form (with ups and downs) all season, and a seriously pathetic return of just 5 goals through a maddening reluctance to shoot like we all know he can.

I will be heartbroken to see one of our own go. I was when Rooney left; I blamed Moyes and never ever forgave him for it. Interesting parallel that suggests... as Rooney clearly fell out with Moyes in his final season and I feel sure that was a major factor in his desire to leave Everton.

So, for consistency, I should perhaps be looking at Koeman in the same critical light, as being the one who could and should have prevented this from happening. Indeed, if I accept a segment of prevailing opinion on this, it is that Koeman will be the one who has effectively driven him out of our club.

Just that puzzling matter of the "12 months" that might let him off the hook...

Stan Schofield
116 Posted 25/05/2017 at 19:26:09
Michael, I don't think much of your arguments, but I admire your stamina. I only came back on this thread because you used some phrases about standard of proof. My stamina doesn't extend beyond that.
David Barks
117 Posted 25/05/2017 at 19:38:45
How about we extend this period of limbo to the entire club? Barkley doesn't seem to want to stay. Lukaku doesn't seem to want to stay. So far this "new" ownership hasn't delivered much of anything other than some naming rights to a training facility. There has been no inclination toward going after big name players to seriously challenge for titles.

I have zero interest whatsoever in watching an Everton side finishing around 7th in the league play in some new stadium in 3-5 years. I want to see this club signing and keeping the players that allow us to take it to any opponent. If we don't see the club moving in that direction this Summer then we are in massive trouble in the future.

John Pierce
119 Posted 25/05/2017 at 19:49:33
David, brave and honest sentiment there. I agree that Everton as an entity have to be "all in". Many won't show this hand yet and speak their mind, the silent majority perhaps?

The reconstruction of the club under new ownership has been there under the surface. Debt cleared, sponsorship and commercial progress.

But it needs to be overt, tangible, clear progress. We have simply restored the status quo, to our financial status of 7th.

Koeman offered and aimed for European football at the seasons beginning, that was actually 5th or higher, and or a cup win by definition. By those standards he didn't get there, but did find a weak premier league to his liking and we got 7th.

I fear despite the posturing, we ain't gonna "bring it" under this fella.

Thomas Lennon
121 Posted 25/05/2017 at 20:20:11
I think those expecting Koeman to take an 11th placed side and only get him a decent centre back, a midfielder who spent most of the season correctly others mistakes & winning the ball back, a stand-in goalie, decent winger and cast off striker, then get into top 5 was a bit of a stretch. Then to lose possibly two players who might be good enough for top 5? Koeman did well. And he did it for free (Four places higher = £7 million?)

Player purchasing & preparation badly underperformed last summer, it cannot afford to do so this summer. Top five will take time and £100 millions. Ask Spurs.

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