So mind numbingly predictable.

Back in a couple hours to fume. Ale time to numb the pain.

I'm sure Mr Koeman knows what he's doing .

I hope he gets sacked as soon as possible.

Koeman doing everything possible to get the sack it seems.

Holgate is better suited to a back 4 where there's an extra man ahead to compensate for his inability to get forward and attack.

Don't know if anyone else has hit on this but, when Gueye signed, he was our best player until he went off to the Afcon. When he came back, Schneiderlin was ensconced in the midfield and Gueye's game has suffered since.

No room for them both but this manager still persists with it and will continue to do so...

Team looks like its set up to drive 3 or 4 deckers in front of the 18 yard box and hope.

0-0 at HT eventually losing 0-2 is my

Thank God it's not an open game of football. Go Ronald.

No Sandro or DCL is immediately denying us any sort of counter attack. We should play Mirallas in an attacking role. We bought him from Olympiacos as a striker, play him there.

When Bolasie is back, he needs to start. He is strong, quick, agile and skillful. Him joint with Mirallas and DCL/Sandro is what we need as a front three. Not Rooney, Sigurdsson and Klaassen.

Start Klaassen or Gylfi as a CAM/CF behind the front three and just behind him have Gueye with either Schneiderlin or Tom Davies. Rooney will slot into either CAM/CF or ST in the front three. However, due to his lack of pace, if we are to play him up top he needs quick players around him. Not Sigurdsson or Klaassen, but Mirallas and Bolasie or DCL

One player I was really happy to see us sign was Henry Onyekuru. Bring him back from loan Ronald. He is a top quality striker with lots of talent. He's quick and a handful for defenders. Something Wayne Rooney is not...

No Lookman, Niasse, or Kenny even on the bench.

The football is just so hard to watch.. we are trying to play further up the field, but the offensive outlet is simply not there.. Rooney is playing well. But he's doing it all himself.. Davies has a lot of industry but not much else and Siggurdsson looks bang average..

I'd switch to a back four and take Keane and Schneiderlin off.. at least put some attacking players on other than that we'll see out this game without a shot on target.

I'm delighted to see Davies looking sharp and I don't think anyone's had a bad half. Good work generally from Rooney and I think the often maligned Williams has also played well. Come on, lads, we can get something from this.

It's not! We are hopeless at best and looking forward to "beating" teams like Brighton and Bournemouth to improve our league position is embarrassing.

What is not lost on me is the poor team tactics. We are set up to simply defend and never to score. This about Koeman keeping his job, nothing more, nothing less. He'll say " Okay, so we didn't win but okay, I keep my job, I'm off for a smoke and a pancake.

If we could appoint anyone though. I'd go all out for Bielsa and at least we'd be entertained by blue giving it all for 90 minutes, with 100 mph all action football.

Totally agree.

We have kept the ball well and with the exception of Schneiderlin and a Keane a vast improvement in performance.

My only negative is the lack of a proper center forward. Bill????

Tom Davies is good enough, why is Jonjoe Kenny not ready?

They are vulnerable down that side, so we hit them with Martina... Rooney needs to keep hold of the ball, attacks are breaking down every time he gets it. Gana was outstanding again.

Michael 53, Tuchel is available. If we fire a world class ex-player, we must do better and try hire someone who did well with both Mainz and BVB.

I though we outplayed them for much of the game and the result is an absurdity. The best we've played for ages and I am heartened.

The remaining problem, and it's fundamental, is the absence of a proper striker. But as one of the main opponents of Koeman, I have no complaints at all after that.

And then, the moment he has been waiting all summer for, Lukaku peeling away from our fans with his hand to his ear, one word, shithouse. Couldn't show any respect whatsoever

Koeman, pack your bags. We are bottom three and it's down to your team set up, you're clueless. Rooney should not have been subbed when we had the unexpected upper hand. Clueless

Ashley Williams - what an error!. I feel sorry for Tom Davies who has too much on his shoulders.
Lots of possession - but no penetration!!

Not one of the team seems to have half the footballing brain that Gareth Barry had!

A sad loss

Just what has our big summer spend bought!! - Koeman - found out so soon.
It reminds me of the waste of the Walter Smith years!!

Another 2 goals shipped while I was typing - Lukaku - Break a leg gobshite!!

PS Stephen Brown # 72 - I don't quite understand

What other Everton manager would survive such a series of results and the dreadful, dour ineffective tactics. He has spent a fortune and we are third from bottom. Not good enough, sack him now.

Manchester United are nowhere near title contenders and were especially poor in the second half, and yet we continued to play 5 at the back and 2 defensive midfielders for most of the game... Even when we had most of the ball, we had no clue what to do with it.. one shot on target says it all really.

Another startling substitution from Koeman, Gana was giving his usual consistent performance and gets the hook ahead of the hapless Schneiderlin who was having another crap game.

There are no positives from that game. Koeman is out of his depth.

Nobody should he happy to lose 4-0 with any performance, – those days should have been over; this was not a great Man Utd performance. Hopefully, Koeman has the brains to drop players making mistakes, change formation and attack teams from the start.

Not nearly good enough for me, and so Koeman has to go. We are too tentative, too de-energised and too prone to mistakes and capitulation.

If we can't do more attacking, we have to defend more. Hence, we're losing without looking like scoring. Need to start playing with two up top (Sandro and Calvert-Lewin???) with Rooney, who had a great game today, in behind. Need a result next game, big time.

We have Rooney who in 2017 does what exactly? Why, oh why didn't we sign a proper striker, and a Baines replacement? Arrrggg!

I said at the beginning of season we would finish below WBA; what I didn't think was we would also below a lot more.

Dour Dave... for eleven long and painful no-cup-winning years.

Taking Rooney off was madness. Sigurdsson is a fuckin hairdresser & hates tackling.

Better display overall but horror show from Williams. Lukaku is classless, makes Rooney look like a Lord & gentleman.

Where next? No idea.

No wonder creative players are and will be looking away It's all about saving Koeman. The longer he is manager, the delay in revitalising Everton into a top 4 side will continue. Things may also get worse.

As for Lukaku, what a Prince amongst men. But remember Romelu, there'll come a day when you're on the decline. And you'll reap all you've sown.

It seems we really should be in the Championship after all.

Anyone who watched that game and didn't see a significant improvement is only watching his prejudices. I still want Koeman out but I will give credit where it's due.

Koeman just cannot see our deficiencies, Baines is absolutely finished.

Bite the bullet, Ronald, and resign for everyone's sake.

Today, expect nothing got nothing. We are in trouble.

Sean Dyche on the other hand could possibly be tempted. Reference his tactics, I'd take his tactics over Koeman's anytime.

This season so far, Burnley have played away at:

Chelsea and won 3-2
Tottenham and drew 1-1
Liverpool and drew 1-1

5 points from a possible 9, with a plus 1 goal difference.

Everton have played:

Man City away and drew 1-1
Chelsea away and lost 2-0
Tottenham home and lost 3-0
Man Utd away and lost 4-0

1 point from a possible 12 and a minus 8 goal difference.

Devastated Lukaku scored, and his celebration was apparently full on. Does he not appreciate we put him where he is now and Mourinho fucked him off at Chelsea? It's all about the money, Rom; all that shite last week on BBC saying you wanted to play for Mourinho since you were 11 (you did and he didn't rate you). Utter shite. C'mon Everton!!!!

Massive improvement on what we have seen this season.

Ronald might just be given a few more games now.

Rooney played well in Everton terms but came up woefully short in terms of ball retention, pass accuracy, speed, skill, and – most important of all – ability to bang the ball in past the opposition keeper. That is really sad as it underlines how hugely lopsided the 'trade' of Lukaku for Rooney was, how much it will do for the Red Devils, and how little it will do for us.

Note to Mr Moshiri: don't leave the petty cash laying about, the underlings will waste it.

This isn't good. Maybe for that reason Koeman might, might, just actually go before then so we don't just limp through to January.

I really think he should do the honourable thing and resign.

If we persevere with this dross too long, we will be in the Championship.

I felt Tom was our best player today but I suspect Ronald will still think its Schneiderlin.

Moshiri, sack the Dutchman.

Today's game hinged on Williams's atrocious pass to a Man Utd player while under no pressure whatsoever. You just can't plan for those moments, other than getting rid if it's a "serial offender".

We played better in the second half up to Williams's fuck-up but still have/had no threat in the last quarter of the pitch. Can't see that changing 'til January and probably not even then.

Having said all that, it is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE that we're in the state we are!

Koeman won't forgive him.

But letting in those extra three goals puts us firmly in the bottom three – can anyone see us getting out of there? Because I can't with Koeman in charge...

I think it's time for Koeman Out!

Michael, 102 - can't believe that's your considered view.

The score does not reflect our performance, we were the better team in parts. The fact we didn't replace Lukaku is hitting us hard.

Calvert-Lewin came on and stood on the wing! Rooney dropped deeper when Sandro came on and Sigurdsson... well, if we payed £45 million for him, I hope Bullshit Bill payed in counterfeit cash because we have bought a dud!

Let's hope we get some luck from now till January; if not, we could still be in the bottom three by the New Year.

Lukaku showed exactly who he is when he scored his goal and he is indeed a fucking scumbag. He didn't do himself any favors for that celebration and no respect for the fans at all. None of that matters anymore.

The facts are we are in the bottom 3 and our goal difference is minus 8 and Koeman has to take responsibility. Ashley Williams, as I rightly said 2 weeks ago is an absolute fucking liability. Jagielka is done and dusted; he had some fantastic years at Everton but your time is up, Philip – please do one asap!

Tom Davies – I don't understand where all the praise comes from; he can't control a ball in any way, is never in the correct place to receive the ball, and I don't rate him at all...

What are the positives from that game? None whatsoever. Suckered like muppets in the Sunday school league when we could possibly have scored on several occasions. We are bang in the shit and need a total change of direction and Koeman has got to go NOW!!!

Sandro on for Davies, criminal.
Gueye off? He is the type of player you just don't take off. Schneiderlin on the other hand....

Williams played the entire 90 minutes. Sigurdsson having zero impact as a wide forward. He is just is wasted out there.

Even when we play 'well', we get tonked. These last 4 league games were a test to Koeman's ability as a manager. Four games against four teams who finished above us and who aim to compete with. We lost, were humiliated, in three and scraped a draw against 10 men in one.

Koeman failed that test. No matter what he manages to do, he will never take away this abysmal sequence, a sequence that no top manager would allow to happen. Koeman has proved he will never be a top manager, and for that reason, It is better we end his tenure. Whether wse have to sack him and pay him off doesn't matter.

We were well in the game until a very poor pass from one of our defenders set Man Utd up for their second goal and it was all over then, seven minutes from the end.

Schneiderlin was poor again, why is he going down on the floor to make a tackle, which resulted in the penalty? Stay on your feet and you would have made a better effort than that.

We got hammered (by the result) but maybe deserved a draw. I'm still not happy with Koeman but agree with Tony Hill – that performance gives me some hope for future games.

I was all for Lukaku going as I thought we would replace him with a similarly talented goalscorer with a better attitude.

I have to say pace on the break and finishing together with a huge slice of luck were the only difference in the sides today.

Well done Ronald for extracting a better performance now work out how we can score.

Why one of those managers? Simple: we will be in a dog fight at the bottom of the league.

An ultra-defensive formation at the outset condemning us to defeat

An early goal that allowed Man Utd to sit back and think these fuckers are never going to score

A period of relatively meaningless possession by Everton with a couple of chances created by the tireless Davies and some good play from Rooney.

Substitutions that made little or sense, Davies off, Gueye off??? Whilst his favourites Schneiderlin and Sigurdsson stay on.

If you are really happy with that and think credit is due, then you are more easily pleased than I am.

Was it better than Atalanta, Spurs, Chelsea or even for that matter Man City or Stoke City at home? Not really... it was the same cowardly negative football served by Koeman.

Rooney and Sigurdsson in tandem doesn't seem to be working, perhaps we should play either one or the other. Perhaps if we'd had a striker on in front of one of them, we would have scored when we were dominating the game.

Taking Tom Davies off was a head-scratcher for me, he was our most dangerous player. Martina had a good game, no errors in defence and dangerous going forward.

Calvert-Lewin unfortunately is not the answer, much as I wish he was.

All modern sides have wingers and decent strikers; we don't. Why? Because the manager has sold them all or won't include them – what a joke.

He's got to go, but just when, only the owners will decide. Better not leave it too late though, or we will be doomed.

Of course, it was miles from perfect but there won't be many sides who go to Old Trafford this season and have more possession. We desperately need a striker as we all know, but I can see a side emerging.

I don't think Koeman's the man to do it but that performance today lifted my heart.

There isn't really much to be done until January – but I think that was our best side before he started making subs.

It makes me laugh how obvious it was we would miss Lukaku – almost too obvious – like it became the elephant in the room that nobody wanted to admit... Why no quality No 9? We were toothless before Lukaku for years; now, here we are again.

While Lukaku missed a real sitter that should have made it 2-0, both Rooney and Sigurdsson had criminal misses. The reality is we still should come 7th and we should still be able to qualify for the Europa League.

If things have not evened themselves out by December, Koeman is going to need to go cap in hand to Ross Barkley to dig him out the hole.

Also... what's the point of Schneiderlin? We would have been better holding on to Barry I think..

Tough run of games done... Koeman's post match reference to lack of confidence is pertinent. Some green shoots today... Onwards and upwards; NSNO!

I am growing increasingly less confident about Pickford and Keane... though willing to give them a chance. Williams, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson and Baines, however, offer nothing. Martina, Davies and Rooney were our best players.

Rooney was fucked so I can understand the sub but Davies? Sandro and Calvert-Lewin were like headless chickens.

As I said, we were better... but god knows when we are going to score again ,never mind win a game!!!

We will see Wednesday as Koeman has got to rest half the team who are out on their feet.

We've also had some shockingly shite fixtures for the players to bed in. We've made some errors in the transfer market especially in not getting a striker and another centre-half but I think the main issue is too many players coming in at once.

Things should pick up and we should get some points on the board over the next 3 weeks. If we don't, then I think it's fair enough to look elsewhere.

You know Moyes will be back with a 5-year deal if we sack him, don't you? Be careful what you wish for!!!

But I'm not going to say we were bad when we weren't. If we're going to get out of this swamp, then we need to tell each other the truth.

So, or all the improvement at times today, we still can't score a goal. We could improve and improve with each defeat, but it means nothing if we don't score.

Also, how can such a defensive team defend so badly?

We've very possibly played the top 4 this season now. And it's gone terribly.

The base test for this new team is how we do against the clubs with more similar resources. It was always unlikely that so many new players would gel instantly. Look at the likes of Mihktaryan, a top class player who took a year to get up to Premier League speed.

We lack a quality striker. That much is clear. I would say we lack a left wingback too. But today there were a few signs of encouragement.

No way Koeman is getting sacked yet. The board will give him more time. If we're still in 18th spot in 6 weeks, then he'll be under serious pressure. Even if you've got new players, you have to get results one way or another.

Worst defence in the Premier League and – although the side played better today – it was still a 4-0 hammering and scoring goals seems impossible at the moment. Massive games we simply have to win...

Oh, by the way, Ron, fuck that joke of a defender Williams off – he is absolute dogshite.

I think a player like Rooney today who was central to every positive move that Everton made is going to be seen to give the ball away a lot and for people to perhaps forget how well he played today. I think that Barkley has the same problem.

I agree with Michael that Rooney had a great game today but he can't do 90 minutes at that pace.

Terrible distribution from Williams and Jags putting us on the back foot so often. Rooney lost the ball way too much and is sadly well in decline, albeit still a decent player. I thought Martina played very well and agree that the subs were wrong. Surely you don't take off your midfield workers like Davies and Gana for strikers?

Yes we were better but lost 4-0 on top of three bad results and zero goals scored. If we don't score in the next two games, then we really are in serious trouble.

So depressing after such high hopes for this season.

Not much competition admittedly but not only does he work his socks off – he is the only one with some genuine class.

The only stat that counts is goals scored... of which we have fuckin 2!!!!

All I'm saying is that, at least, for 80 mins we played like something resembling a team. Recently we've been playing like 11 strangers so, in my opinion, this was an improvement. Saying that, we need a helluva lot more work to do.

As for the subs, I want to believe that he thought with the introduction of Ramirez and Calvert-Lewin, we could get the equaliser. Maybe it's that I'm just being delusional.

Pathetic away record, won 2 of the last 20 away games, get ripped apart virtually every time we come up against a top side.

And fans called Lukaku a flat-track bully? Nah, it's just that he played for a club with a defeatist loser's mentality that only scrapes wins against mediocre opposition.

I loathe watching this Everton side, it's been shite for months now. I was at West Ham in April when they bored me to sleep almost.

I can't honestly see it ever happening for Koeman now, the loss of Lukaku has simply been something that has been too much for him to adapt to. Whereas Moyes thrived in having few options in injury crises, Koeman seems lost, completely lost.

Let's not forget last autumn too; we went from September to the middle of December winning just ONE match! Really – aside from a decent home run after Christmas (mostly due to Lukaku's goals) – it's all been pretty poor from Koeman in his 16 months to date...

Oh wait. Maybe it was better because it was only 1-0 with seven minutes left and our poor darling players got tired and "collapsed".

Yes, I understand that it is a mental and physical game, which means surely that Koeman and the backroom staff should be aware of this. To me, they don't appear to be due to the head-scratching positions to which certain players are deployed, and the often bamboozling substitutions.

After 52 years watching Everton, I can't believe the comments of some on here insomuch as they appear delighted at today's result. You know what, guys, maybe you have the team and club you deserve.

Ask yourselves for example what the attitude of Liverpool supporters would be after losing 4-0 at Old Trafford, especially coming on the back of such a poor run of results as Everton's?

Me, I'm far from happy and I think the club has made a huge error of judgement in appointing Koeman. I hope Moshiri is as equally underwhelmed as myself and has a plan of action if things get any worse.

He has had plenty of money and he has the final say on how it was spent!

But the collapse at the end looked like a morale issue, which is arguably "only human" after the previous dismal results.

I agree with others who said the substitutions were lethal, but the greatest death blow on the day was the liability that is Williams. He simply has no rightful place in any side with the aims we are supposed to possess. And yet again, he fouled up catastrophically near the end of the game; didn't he do the same last season at Old Trafford and cost us a win?

So, my estimated blame matrix for today's result (ignoring any role United had in it):

Williams for the faux pas that led to the 2-0: 40%;
The previous poor results' effect on mental strength: 10%;
Koeman's substitutions on the day: 15%;
Koeman's lineup and formation: a surprisingly low 5%;
The failure to either keep or replace Lukaku: 25%;
The mistake buy that was Sandro: 5%

Koeman and his substitutions cost us that because, when Rooney and Davies were on, we were in with a chance. Why oh why didn't he take that useless twat Schneiderlin off, or the very ineffective Sigurdsson?

And by god that's looking like £45 million pissed against the wall, isn't it? Shocking fee for an average player, in my view. No goals in 4 now and leaking goals alarmingly. Worrying times.

Thank you for your comment, I take your point about today not being as woefully bad as Thursday. However, to retort, I think people who think they witnessed a significant improvement are deluding themselves for the following reasons:

1. I'm not sure we could have been any worse than Thursday – so we are judging from a very low starting point.

2. For all our possession, there was very little penetration from us.

3. Man Utd were in second gear from the moment they scored until they carved us to ribbons a la Spurs and Atalanta

4. The same nonsensical formation has defenders and midfielders defending so deep, we are always likely to concede.

I am not a fantasist; I don't expect Everton to win every game playing champagne football. I do however expect them to adopt a philosophy that at least shows they have the intent and means to attack the opposition.

But it is also an improvement, only in comparison to the utter shite we have been displaying so far.

It is not the next league fixtures that will decide Ron's future; it will be Simon Grayson and Sunderland who'll do it, I'm afraid. Oh, and James Vaughan!

As for the bunch of shithouses in charge of our club – shame on the lot of you! That snake-oil salesman Kenwright and his Muppet mouthpiece Moshiri need shooting for allowing this shit to happen.

Koeman should've been fired after Thursday night's pathetic capitulation. I have a horrible feeling that Bill Kenwright will be telling the bullshitting Iranian to keep Koeman because, if we go down, we will dodge the bullet of the imaginary new stadium.

This might sound crazy and extreme but I wouldn't put anything past the horrible slime balls that run this club. The more I watch us go down the khazi, the more I detest Kenwright and his new lapdog Moshiri.

This is so serious for Everton – our Premier League survival is looking doomed. Bring in the Rhino or Big Sam. We need change now. We need rescuing from Koeman now. The players need a new form of energy to feed off now.

The crap being served up by this Dinosaur Koeman is shameful and disgusting. Not only is he ruining the club – he is shitting all over the fans. Basically taking the piss.

I hope we lose to Sunderland heavily; maybe the board will act then but I doubt it. Forget cup runs and Europe – we need to stay in the Premier League or we are finished forever. The way it's going it will be so hard to accomplish.

Koeman out please, FFS – before its to late to be rescued.

Sean Dyche? – Jesus Christ.

Koeman selected the team, prepared them and motivated them and we lost 0-4. Enough said.

He has made us into a team that, the minute any player receives the ball anywhere on the pitch, the first thought is to turn backwards. We can see it everywhere and every time.

So goals from mistakes in back passes and bad passes across the back are inevitable – added to that, the truly unbelievable and unexplainable substitutions.

Davies and Rooney were our best players; it was 1-0, we were making half-chances in the game. Koeman takes them off leaving Jagielka and Schneiderlin on – result: 4-0.

Baines had a nightmare of a game – nowhere to be seen all day. Big big changes and big decisions need to be made here, but they won't and we all know that.

It's not the hope that kills but the frustration. I can see Rainbows and Silver Linings because I will be at all the foreseeable next games... but this is unacceptable from The Board and The Management – do they care about us at all.

Time to go, Jagielka, Baines, Williams, Schneiderlin, Mirallas, and few more... Go with the young ones; I'll be behind you – totally. Stick with the same and I will still sit bored and lifeless in my Park End seat.

Time for change, right through. Still a Blue – like you – but things need doing... now.

We showed better defence but still lack flare in the final third.

Now I know it still ended as a 4-0 defeat but I think even the most ardent Man Utd fan would agree the scoreline flattered them.

I thought he did the right thing with bringing on Calvert-Lewin and Sandro when you are having as much of the ball as Man Utd – why not bring on two strikers to try and get something from the game with time running out?

Let's remember that Sandro, Calvert-Lewin and Rooney will have to share this position till at least 1 January. So you have to give them game time. I thought Sandro looked lively when he came on and brought a great save from De Gea.

The next 4 or 5 league games are important for the team and Koeman. I would hope we will be well out the bottom 3 and moving up the league after these games.

I think, whatever happens, the board quite rightly will give him till Xmas to turn things around. Should we still be in and around the bottom 3 by then, the board will have some serious thinking to do.

As angry as I am right now, we lost to Chelsea, Spurs, Atalanta and United, all top 5 teams in very competitive leagues. We shouldn't have lost the way we did and that's down to Koeman and the players.

But we're not worse than last season... not yet. That will be mid October if we've not turned it around.

Relegation zone with the worst defensive record & worst goal difference. Koeman throws away 2 points against Man City with a ridiculous double substitution. Then takes Gueye off today when we are still in the game, and we then lose the midfield regardless of Williams's mistake.

Koeman is tactically clueless. Time to go.

He bought and continues to play Williams
He has led us to the last 3 shocking morale-sapping displays
He picks and organises(??) the team
He knew a year ago Lukaku was going
He bought Sandro
Plus
He plays Schneiderlin every game
He got no left-back cover and Baines looks shot

Worryingly, having walked out of the Etihad okay with the result, and slumped out of Old Trafford crushed, I have got to say we were probably better today than against Man City or Stoke City.
We could quite conceivably have no points.

100% Koeman's fault.

Today was different. We made a Man Utd team that most expect to be contending for the title struggle into the 80th minute; with a bit more luck, we'd have been level by then.

The team started to become cohesive, you could see how the likes of Rooney, Sigurdsson and Davies, with support from Calvert-Lewin and Sandro, could be too much for some teams at this level to handle.

It doesn't mean we'll take eight points from the next five games and move up the table. But it shows we might, whereas on Thursday night there was no hope of that.

I have been calling for Kenny to be given a run out but today I thought Martina was one of our better players.

Maybe some regulars who went the game will be able to tell me if Lukaku was getting abuse from the Everton fans? I certainly did not hear anything; if that is the case, it says everything about the respect Lukaku has... the shithouse.

Anyone saying we played well today... utterly deluded, I'm afraid. We set up for a draw and lost 4-0. We are worse than this time last season. I honestly don't see what Sigurdsson contributed other than getting in Rooney's way when he took a shot. He did nothing.

And I thought Rooney was class – almost the only point of attack in the whole team. He must wonder why he bothered signing.

The substitutions were again baffling and definitely cost us the game.

All-in-all, I don't think Koeman can do the job; I would rather he resigned before long, and the damage, irreversible.

That isn't to say we were in any way unlucky; the first goal was the killer because we didn't have an answer. And yet again we compounded the final result with schoolboy defending, so hope will still have to spring eternal.

Please remind me the number of crosses or passes we put in the box since the start of this season where we only missed a No 9 to put them in the back of the net? As far as I can remember: 0.

Not sure if anybody else would have scored the goals Wayne did in the league so far.

When one has Schneiderlin and Gueye playing so close with the back line, there are limited opportunities to get the ball forward to a No 9.

Why do we have to play two central midfielders to shield our back line? In any case, we shipped 2-0, 3-0, 3-0 and 4-0 in the last 4 games? Can someone please tell me how playing Niasse in front in these four games would have made the results worse? Or playing Mirallas to inject some pace?

As everybody else, I was very excited when Koeman signed. But his treatment of Deulofeu and Niasse told me right away and right then that this guy cannot bring the best out of players and will destroy us. All he's been doing since is playing his favourites (without regard to their merits), who are no better than what we had.

Williams is his signing. Can someone please tell me how much is he an improvement over Jagielka or Mori? How Schneiderlin is better than Davies or Barry? How Martina is an improvement over Kenny? How Sigurdsson is an improvement over Barkley? How much Lookman is an improvement over Deulofeu?

I can see Sigurdsson and Lookman are good players; but did we really need some of the other signings to replace our existing players and to end up losing the games that we did?

Has anybody realised that, since Barkley has been out of the team, it's been dull?

In terms of signing, with Koeman we only moved sideways but spending a fortune to get the team exactly where it has always been if not worse.

I am not sure what we are expecting from this guy. Either way, I think we are so far down the road with him that I believe a new person won't be able to fix the mess he's got us into.

Koeman has a faint heart for Number 10s and he buys all Number 10s he possibly can to play them all over the midfield and attack? Can we for once have a manager who can play players in their right positions?

Until we sign a Number 9, bring back Niasse; play Mirallas and Lookman on the wing to inject pace; bring in Lennon. We need to try to inject some pace, open the wings and shoot some crosses for Niasse to head in.

No striker. No pace or pattern. We did show improvement but that will only matter if that continues.

Subs were not great. He decided to bring on Sandro? He must be showing something in training. He must, and Klaassen, be given time. However I'm not seeing it.

Mirallas is still and option as a striker but I doubt Koeman will see it as an option. Too many changes made from last season. You bring new faces into the team slowly, not all at once.

Two home wins and let's see what a bit of confidence brings, especially if we can bring on Sandro and Klaassen while we are actually winning for a change.

I just think we have to look at these first few games with realism over, for once, hope. The results we've had are in my opinion about one point worse than a pools panel would have given us, that's all. The next month will tell us much. Results need to be good consistently from here.

The quality of play is very disheartening though, even if the results have been near as dammit expected of a newly formed team.

The failure to sign at least one forward with the savvy to make the opposition defend and allow our team to stay further up the pitch is the big failure though, not Koeman, unless of course it was his fault.

I'd expect a guy like Moshiri to sack the bloke(s) responsible, unless of course his money doesn't stretch beyond what he receives from sales in terms of recruitment.

I'm looking for a 3-0 against Sunderland, a 3-0 against Bournemouth, a 4-0 against Limassol, and a 2-0 against Burnley.

He goes off, 4-0. Coincidence?

Michael, I don't think you've proved your case – Everton at the moment are one of the flattest tracks in the Premier League.

"Everton had a lot of control but quality was the difference."

We know already thank you very much. It hurts , but he's bang on and we know why he wanted to go, Lukaku is a smart guy.

Man Utd and the rest of top six are years ahead of us and only one thing will get us closer -– money! – and our billionaire isn't going to help in buying players.

The most annoying today for me was Baines switching off once again and just letting Lukuka score , and of course Mayo missing out against the Dubs once again by a point – what a game that was.

Sunderland on Wednesday night with a few ex-Evertonians that will love nothing more than to heap more misery up in us... doesn't bear thinking about.

When people call players Koeman's signings, that is incorrect. They are players who were signed by the club during the period that Koeman was Head coach.

Next Manager to Leave:

On Wednesday Koeman was 33/1. Right now 11/4

Does it suggest that Moshiri is upset?

Blame game?

I think Koeman will be our manager for a few games yet. I think we saw enough today to suggest all is not lost.

He's still ignoring the lack of pace and forward-thinking players, who get in the opposition box. We have them in Lookman and Niasse, who is probably our most experienced centre-forward, obviously Rooney is a number 10.

Niasse is 27, has scored for Hull at big grounds and with Lookman, is making a mockery of his exclusion by showing for the U23s exactly what we need..

A centre-forward playing as a centre-forward and a winger on the wing. If he plays them on Wednesday and it works, he has to give Niasse a run at centre-forward. How worse could it be? But more worryingly – how worse is it going to get before anyone acts?

What does go through Koeman's mind? It certainly is not footballing sense.

I saw a bit of improvement today. But as has been said, the lack of forward is the biggest gall. 3 transfer windows we have known he is going and nothing was done.

The substitutions don't make sense and the lack of Lookman, who seems to be doing well for Unsy ,is baffling.

I don't understand what the idea is, although saying all that, we should have scored at least 2!

it's the way we have played: 9 goals conceded and 0 scored in the last 3 games, we look all over the place, just don't look like scoring and, apart from 35 minutes in the 2nd half of today's game, we just don't seem to have any fight!

It really is shocking – something needs to change and quickly; otherwise, our season will be over before November!

I really really hope I am not proven wrong, but why did Koeman pick many of the exact players that have gotten us into this mess in the first place? Is it a tactic to surprise them by doing exactly the same things as before and lull them into a false sense of security?

I know he got a response, but the result was the same. We have 4 fit first team wingers in the squad and didn't use one of them. We have 1 experienced international forward that isn't Rooney in Niasse and we didn't even put him on the bench.

It could be argued that Rooney isn't a Number 9 these days. We could consider Sandro and Calvert-Lewin as number 9s, but it ain't worked and Koeman is not trying any alternatives.

I am finding it increasingly hard to defend him. I just hope he justifies my previous faith in him. The next few games will be the judge.

That says it all.

Man Utd not a full strength and off colour today and still beat 4-0 and collapsed like recent games. Williams and Jagielka – I'm sorry but game over, thanks for all; rusty, slow, no confidence.
Give Koeman the next 5 games!!

Rooney basically up front on his own, and the defence / midfield at times 9 in a row along the 6-yard line. Koeman doesn't even have the nouse to tell them to push up. I've seen enough.

Blinder that the first goal was it would go over the bar 90% of the time. Valencia hadn't scored in four years. What a way to start.

After that we were always in the game mainly because we had to attack. I don't think anyone played really bad with Rooney Davies and the much hated Martina really putting in good shifts. However we gave the ball to them far too easily on open field passes.

I am as disappointed as anyone, but in trying to be hopeful and realistic we are really a brand new team still trying to get to know each other. The next ten games will really tell what we are.

Sigurdsson has to start performing and hopefully being the star that he was supposed to be. We need to decide who the striker is until we sign a real one. Forget all the "should haves", because we have what we have. I still think Rooney has been our most consistent player so far even though he is obviously past his prime.

For the most part, stop moaning, because it won't change things. Try to get behind the team. Hating Koeman may make you feel better but it won't really help us to improve. There must be better times ahead. I hope...

Difficult to assess today's game – we were still right in it approaching the ¾ mark. At times, we were even the better side, but this is not a great Man Utd team and they still could and should have scored six.

Attitude better, but the players still don't know what the manager wants.

Koeman faces Dyche and Howe next; both are being touted for his job. He needs to see the pair of them off if he is to have any future here.

Crunch Time.

Unless you have a squad with quality in every position, it really is a hindrance.

Yes, the performance in parts was better but it couldn't possibly be any worse than the absolute garbage we've served up lately. So in comparison it was better.

The mentality that "oh well its the big boys" it doesn't matter we're not supposed to beat them anyway really grates.

Oh and "the season starts now" crap, no it doesn't start now – we're in the bottom three and we've lost our first Europa League group game. The season is leaving us behind.

Were United happy to let us keep the ball and hit our slow defence? We had more of the ball than we expected and were unlucky not to score but we live on the edge for me.

One misplaced pass undoes us no problem. We don't seem to ever capitalise on the oppositions errors.

All I can ever remember in January is how often managers have said its difficult to sign players. Now our hopes are pinned on it.

Who is going to sell us a decent striker in January. I think we lack a winger too?

Bournemouth, Burnley and Brighton next in the league - minimum 7 points otherwise we're really in the shit. Let's hope we tonk Sunderland and breath a bit more confidence into these players.

My take? It's all a bit 'lower league'. It stinks of: "We went to Old Trafford,and were in the game until they got their second." Something teams have done for the past 25 years.

The fact we have spent £200m over 12 months and pay our manager the 11th highest wage in the world of football seems lost on some. Not me, lads (and any lasses). I expect those poor players and manager to go anywhere in this League and match those teams we face.

We're not fucking Huddersfield. To see my team set up like a Vanarama side in the FA Cup against the mighty Manchester United makes me ill.

The problem is I just don't see it with this ultra conservative manager. I don't see the tactical tweaks or the coaching intuition to change a game or even set up from the outset to really threaten our opponents.

He got plenty mate. Especially when he showed his usual consummate close control (sarcasm).

He goaded the away supporters when he scored as pay back for abuse he was getting. Well merited as far as I'm concerned (abuse that is). He showed very little respect to us.

Learning is the players must put this in every game as a bare minimum. Let's forget top 6 and aim to be clear of the bottom 6, as we are shipping heavy at the back and show no real signs of sustainable creativity and finishing the scant chances we have made this season.

So a leaking wobbly Keystone Cops defence, with an impotent strike force... The bare elements of football we currently can't do with any quality and that is the big question over Steve Walsh and the transfer policy. So far, Gana has done it, Lookman looks like he can do it, but the rest (with exception of Pickford) look average, at best.

The team lacks balance and cutting edge, and it's gonna be a slog to stay out of trouble. Hope eternal but we need a miracle the next few weeks to stop the rot, as this level of performance unless sustained and we would then have to be ruthless with finishing, then we are in the real fight for survival.

Dust down ready for Sunderland, and hopefully lessons from Norwich last season are learnt..

Difficult when your in it, but we are in it bad style so here's to a win on Wednesday, the AFCB. The next 4 games, the results must happen.

I know we were a lot better in the second half than of late but we still had no creativity or penetration and gave the ball away too easily.

We all know the club motto and four games without a goal and 12 against is an absolute disgrace.

It's not the fault of the board – we have spent a fortune on the wrong players, assembling a group of No 10s whilst ignoring the positions where we all know we are weak. Don't blame Kenwright or Moshiri for that – I bet Moyes would have bought better than this!

The position is critical – as someone posted above, we now have four games which would normally on paper be four wins. But we can't create, we can't defend and we can't score so either we are going to improve or we get stuffed and Ron must surely be shown the door.

We need a Kevin Brock moment – and quickly!!!

One thing you need at Old Trafford is for them to have a bad day. They had a bad day and we lost 4-0. I could narrow the whole game down and still wouldn't feel positive.

Why were Gueye and Davies both in the game? If someone had to come off, why not Baines who was poor?

Why persist in putting ourselves under pressure with stupid passes in and around our box? Do we not know when to lump it rather than give the ball away in their half than round our box again, week-in and week-out.

We set up is like minnows against the top sides. The manager's after-match statement – he thinks we are only minnows against the big boys. In the end, we deserve what we got, so no hard-luck stories please.

I bet the Blackburn manager was on about £100 quid a week. So Keoman on his £6m a year surely should be able to find a player within the ranks and convert him into a goal-scoring centre forward. Why not try Ashley Williams cos he is doing sod all at the back?

I thought there was a lot of effort today, saw our Goalie beaten again by a shot from distance. Williams played well then let himself down, at right-back we looked good and, as an attacking option, Martina did well.

I feel any criticism today is unfair. That said the whole back 4/5 are too slow. Ghana always shows for me, Schneiderlin, at first I thought was good last season, now?? Tom Davies is a young lad learning on the job, as is Calvert-Lewin. Wayne put in what he can, great footballing brain, but after an hour, legs gone.

I too thought I saw an improvement on Spurs, and Old Trafford is always difficult, but something fundamental is missing and for me, as I posted the other day, the responsibility rests at the Manager's door.

If the next few games don't yield better results, not sure I would even give him them; we never seem to see off easier opposition, then change is inevitable.

Not Sam, nor Sean; I vote, not that I have one, Rafa before the Reds come calling for him, or Unsworth.

Zero attacking threat and defensively likely to concede at the slightest danger.

This is so reminiscent of the dying embers of the Martinez regime.

I knew on deadline day we would face struggles but I never foresaw 10 goals without reply in the next 3 matches.

This is a calamitious nose dive in form.

Board has to act now!

Of the players that are now at Goodison, it strikes me that Williams was bought when he was two years past his sell-by-date. But it is Schneiderlin who most disappoints me. When he was at Southampton, he broke up play and was an excellent distributor of the ball. At Everton he is miles off the pace and is barely able to pass five yards sideways. Klaassen looks very, very ordinary. Lookman was signed but for no discernible reason.

This manager has got no idea, his player recruitment is appalling, his selection, a mystery, his tactics naive and his motivation is non-existent. We are in the bottom three, we may well stay there if Koeman remains at the helm.

Moyes, Martinez, Koeman who chooses them and why?

Occasionally his rush to move us forward led to intercepted passes, but haven't we been moaning about the lack of that? Taking him off was bizarre. He had just been told to drop in by the manager.

With the game moving on and us remaining on top they withdrew Rashford, who for all his pace had been little threat, and threw on a midfield player, our response was to remove Davies, who had given Matic so much trouble that he made little contribution as he has so far this season. We removed Gueye. So they increase theirs by 1 we reduce ours by 2. Then we take off Rooney who had just been asked to drop in.

The manager, who I would replace in a heartbeat, got it right at the start with team selection and shape. He then totally blew it with the subs.

Whilst I still have reservations over 5 at the back and some of the players we have bought, we need to play the same players and shape to start on Wednesday, and do the same Saturday. The shape needs to stay the same all through both games. Constantly tinkering might look like tactical genius but it's bollocks.

Also, I can confirm that Oumar was in the away end.

Since this absence will continue to haunt us until January, at least, why do we not have the courtesy of an explanation?

Was it lack of money, lack of targeting/confused targeting, lack of interest from targets?

As ever, the club will not tell us because to do so would be embarrassing. The best we have had was the guff from Moshiri when he spoke to Jim White.

I believe this is one of the most glaring mistakes in the history of Everton and one which could cost us very dearly, as we saw today. Silence isn't good enough.

How long has it been 6 hours ish ? Since we last tickled the onion bag?

Until we get a striker or two we will continue to suffer. The recruitment has been absolutely diabolical. The worst in our history. It is a complete shambles and an utter disgrace not to have made a striker a priority. I wouldn't have minded if it was our only priority!

I'm spitting feathers, sawdust and fire over the whole fiasco. All through the summer, fans were demanding prioritisation of a striker; the manager and board have failed abysmally in strengthening the most important part of any football team.

Now we have the weakest attack in the division. I am sick as a pig and appalled. I want it put right. Goals win games!

We have bought good players in the window, I'm convinced of that. However, we have done ourselves the type of self-inflicted damage that only Everton could have done. We needed at least 2 strikers, having let Lukaku, Kone and Valencia leave. Getting none in is a dereliction of duty. If I was Moshiri, someone's head would be on the block for this.

For me, none of the players is capable of being our main striker up front alone for the next 4 months until January. Koeman needs to change the tactics to reflect this. I think we can only do one thing – play 4-4-2, with any combination of Mirallas, Rooney, Calvert-Lewin, Sandro etc up front.

I am a fan of Koeman, and I believe the club have badly let him down by not bringing in his transfer targets. Steve Walsh and Ronald Koeman seem to have separate agendas when we buy players, and I'm not that is healthy. I just hope Koeman can come up with a solution on the pitch, a bit like when Moyes played no strikers and we had Fellaini and Cahill up front.

"It's really difficult, as a manager you try to help and support them - but when the whistle starts it's all about them".

Now the results have nothing to do with him he has to go, players reading that as well.

He bought Rooney, Sigurdsson, Klaassen and Sandro for goals to be spread across the team, not just relying on a striker. It's just not worked out so far but, when it does, posters on ToffeeWeb will have nothing to moan about – it will be like a ghost town.

Anyone denying it wasn't needs a pair of eyes.

Frankly, turning it round is not what I hoped for a few weeks ago. I fear that, " he right man to turn it round", is going to be a TW phrase over the next while.

Kevin (#216) – we are indeed heading towards the 'plucky little club' attitude we thought we had finally seen the back of. Disappointing does not even come close!

4-0 was a flattering result for United, and several players stepped up for us. However, Koeman's substitutions were ill-judged and his grand plan for today was defeatist and lacking ambition – not least because 'his' players have not reached the standards he has hoped for so far. We still can't attack sufficiently, or defend confidently, or even create from the midfield or flanks!

However, today's match has bought him more time, sadly. The next 4 games should be winnable and may well be such even given our unbalanced squad. But most of us know that there is 'something rotten in the state of Denmark' – and if don't start pulling way from the bottom 3 in the next month after our challenging fixtures of late – then surely even the most ardent Koeman supporter must realise that January's transfer window should involve someone else than Koeman.

Tony at 234 your right, nobody knows what to do when we have the ball. Morgan sideways passing even when in space, forwards no idea. Gylfi should try cross country instead!

The new guy should be someone committed to working with the players we have and have an idea straight away about how to get width and pace in the team. Also, he should have a list of Number 9s for Walsh.

I thought Davies and Rooney gave it their all, there was a few stupid mistakes that need to be cut right out of it. If we address that and get some confidence going with a win next week, it will be a tonic.

I don't think any corners will be turned though, until we strengthen the attack.

All smacks of the Mike Walker regime and the ironic thing being Rhino and Big Dunc could be our saviours again this time in a different capacity. The team seems to have lost that passion, it's identity and what it means to play for Everton.

I just think Koeman hasn't connected in a way he should have, I think there's a genuine lack of trust from the players and the relationship is beyond repair at this stage.

For me, you speak with Rhino asap, then you go speak to Ross Barkley asap, and you say your starting beside Tom Davies. We're going back to our roots and this shouldn't have been allowed to happen. We'll build a team around you two; we have some quality players and Seamus will also help inject that much missing passion in due course.

It's season over if the current regime persists; for me, it's not too late by a long shot if commonsense prevails – I can remember sat at Coventry University in November 1994 hearing Walker was sacked; 23 years on – let's not wait till November to sort this mess out.

Yes, we were better than the Spurs and Atalanta games, but we couldn't have been any fucking worse. Still, optimism is a great thing.

I think I'll save mine for when we've got a couple of big wins under our belts against the likes of Sunderland and Bournemouth because, if we can't beat them, even the biggest optimist on here is going to have trouble finding positives.

Let's have review of history. Moyes, get him out, he is crap, he destroyed every forward he ever touched and we are fed up with grinding out results. Moyes leaves and in comes Bobby and his brown shoes. One cracking season and then his head's on the block, he is crap, his tatics are poor, he can't defend, we are going to get relegated.

He is sacked and in comes Koeman and it starts again. His tactics are shocking, he doesn't have a clue, why 3 Number 10s? Not just the managers, the players who got it too. Lukaku is a lump, horrors of a first touch, sell him; we are better without him. Talk about "glass half-empty".

Sadly we have a mid-table team who over achieved under Moyes and Robs first year and been on par since. People who think we are better than that need a trip to Specsavers.

The correlation of having a mid-table side and finishing mid table seems to have escaped a lot of supporters. People write like we have a world class side being managed by Ronald McDonald, not Koeman. We have an average side being managed by a good manager.

Look around you: Man City, better side, world class manager (if not greatest manager around) and they can't win the league. Man Utd, better side, better manager, can't make top 4. We sold our best player, and then wonder why we can't win against a side which has improved itself year on year?

People say we should have replaced Lukaku. With whom? We couldn't keep hold of the forward we had, how are we going to convince someone better to come and fill his boots. At best we could get an undiscovered gem, I can count them on one hand.

In reality, we were going to get someone who could bang in about 10-15 goals a season and add a few more from the middle of the park. So we shouldn't be surprised that we are struggling to score.

We get excited because we spent more than £5 on a player. So did everyone else – have you seen Man City squad before they added Walker and the like. Man Utd hardly had a poor team when they bought Lukaku. Aresnal can't get their stars to sign new contracts. Liverpool have star players who want to leave. Teams who are better than us, on average league finishes, can't hold on to players of quality. How are we expected to overnight get world class players in and build a team?

Take a reality check, we bought in a couple of new players. I would say two improved our side today: Pickford and Keane. The rest will take time to bed in and make a difference. The reality is we will have had a good season if we manage 7th again. Why 7th? Why good? Because our starting 11 is worse this season than last season and other teams have improved, making it harder to get points.

For me, our season starts now; it's all about the teams which finished below us. There are 78 points up for grabs if we beat them all; doing that will exceed anything ever achieved in the Premier League. So we may lose to Man Utd or Tottenham, it's not those games which determine if we exceed the top 7, it's all the others.

Sadly the next couple of seasons are about building, waiting and watching, less excitement and more patience is needed.

We'll get turned over in the cup because he won't be interested in it and we'll be bottom following the Bournemouth & Burnley games.

I half expected a drubbing today, I think I'd figured on 8-0. In truth, I saw a team that tried but are set up wrong. We'll be set up wrong for the cup match and the Bournemouth & Burnley games. He is clueless.

I cannot and will not regard a 0-4 defeat as some kind of positive, turning point moment.

The next few games will give us a feel for how we're really doing. In the meantime, I'm hoping our 'board' is doing some due diligence on managers, with more options than they had for strikers.

No manager can sort this lot out until we can bring in new players.

Posters have spoken about our team. In one sense, it's true, but in another sense, it is his team. He's brought most of them in and in any event they dance to his tune.

Get rid.

No focal point up front, no runners from midfield, no pace, no creativity and no width. Just pack the middle of the park and hope by some chance we score first and then hold on, a la Man City.

I thought this was the season we were to challenge for the top four with the players signed (although Man Utd finished 6th)?

We are dire, boring and predictable and I am worried we may finish halfway at best.

I suppose for a club that hasn't won the league for 30 years or a cup for 22, that's okay. 50 years a fan and, despite the hype, I don't see a successful future.

This post is unfair and bordering insulting. I'm sure nobody thinks they have a silver bullet. and at the moment, they are watching a grossly underachieving team and manager.

There will always be over-the-top comments but I find generally that ToffeeWebbers are reasonable and passionately care about their club. I think you should get more excited and less patient. "Most ignored"!! Wow.

I have a simple outlook on things, how can a 4-0 loss be an improvement on a 3-0 loss? Regardless of the fixture list, the manner of our defeats has been a disgrace.

Did anyone else think he looked a bit redder and angsty on the touch line today? Hopefully he is panicking about his future. I can only wish

We had a bit more spirit, a bit more confidence for 30 mins of the 90. We actually had two, yes, two chances to score. We messed those up which is a shame for Rooney who had a really mixed match, giving the ball away too easily at times, but at others defending like crazy and working incredibly hard.

Truth is, the defence was woeful, again. Williams gets credit for a better performance but what's the point when you cost us an unlikely chance at a fightback with a dire schoolboy error?

Keane? I've no idea but he seems crushed though there were a couple of signs he can deliver. Jags was Jags, aged 35. Baines was Baines: effort, commitment, but missing when it really mattered and not a force going forward.

Martina looked better when he had some runs but he's surely not the answer at right back. Pickford? He is getting a bit of stick for the first time, not sure it's deserved but there's a point about how deep the defence is and how in those circumstances coming earlier for crosses is so important. But I'd still back him to be a cracking keeper and soon.

But defensively as a whole we are a poor unit in the face of quality opposition, with a toothless attack and an over-stocked yet under-performing midfield, and it now remains to be seen if, back in "our league", it's all good enough to hang onto the Best of the Rest title and maybe dredge up enough quality of our own to do something in a cup competition?

Cut your throat stuff, I know! But it's honestly how I feel and looking at this thread I'm in good company. Tell you what though; if Koeman or existing senior players or additional younger faster more energetic U23s, or even bloomin' Niasse ffs, or a combination of the lot, actually turn this depressing start around, they will deserve the plaudits that come their way because right now it looks like one hell of a challenge.

Here's the thing: if Koeman went tomorrow, I'd honestly not see it as a crisis or a threat. I'm not screaming for his dismissal as I ended up doing with Martinez.

Let's go through his buys:

Gueye – brilliant until Schneiderlin came into the team. His presence limits Gueye's intake.

Bolasie – one or two good games before injury; vastly overrated.

Stekelenburg – ordinary.

Williams – always got a mistake in him and ponderous.

Klaassen – I'll reserve judgement because he's hardly figured but not hopeful.

Sandro – ditto.

Rooney – Brain saying yes; legs aren't.

Keane – looks a bag of nerves at the moment and lacking confidence.

Martina – Southampton's 3rd-choice right-back... enough said.

Schneiderlin – awful; doesn't offer anything offensively or defensively; shocking buy.

Sigurdsson – £45 million... at the moment, he looks a yard off the pace; never been the quickest anyway; unlikely to spark our season into life when fully fit; also played out of position.

Calvert-Lewin – willing, all heart, but lacks the required quality at this level and won't score 5 league goals if he starts or comes off the bench, so not good enough.

The positives – Pickford at this time being let down by a poor defence; and Tom Davies, but seems to be the go-to when a sub is required. Moyes would have set up far better than this clown even if he'd have had half his warchest. We are in a dogfight, whether we like it or not, and Koeman isn't the man to get us out of it.

It was Koeman's attitude, when interviewed after the game, he was laughing, probably all the way to the bank, and tried to apportion the blame to the players.

Now come on, he picked the team, and made the wrong substitutions, and yet, the players are at fault.

Conclusion, he has to go, otherwise we will be playing in a much lower division.

Koeman has to go, how anyone can take positives from today is beyond me. He took off our 3 best players, and Garbutt can't be any worse than Baines, who just stood and let Lukaku score.

The question is :Do we keep with Koeman, who knows what the problems are? Or is he the man to fix it?

What a difficult run of fixtures to start the season. All I know is we must stop conceding and quick. Whoever the manager is, this must happen.

A clean sheet in our next game will give us confidence to move on.

This entire mess makes me sick, which is only made worse by the realization of just how little so many supporters expect from Everton.

If you look at the top players, most have dipped in form either at the start of their Premier League careers or even in the second season. Kane, Aguero and Suarez to name three.

As Tim Locke said, we are undergoing a revolution from an aging average side with one or two good players but little or no money spent on star quality players for over 20 years and have just played the probable top 4 (3 away from home) who are spending £50m per player amounting to about £200 or £300m minimum.

I would hate to be in a small boat in a storm with some of you already dooming us to relegation, wanting to appoint Sean Dyche. Please get behind the club and the manager and players and see where it takes us.

Nobody is happy with the current situation but hopefully it is only temporary.

I think, then, you are missing something.

I'm ordering tickets for Brighton tomorrow. Must be our penance for past sins.... Jesus wept, I must of been a bad bastard in this life and the last.

By the way, Harry Redknapp's free... there will be at least one who will say he can do a job until the end of the season.

Set up not to concede, and to limit the opposition with no thought on how to occupy them, which is in truth how you peg a side back.

So Plan A failed spectacularly within 5 minutes. Then the next 70 minutes Man Utd were happy just to let us have the ball. They didn't over-extend themselves and waited for the mistakes, there were so many it beggared belief.

Williams, apart from booting Lukaku which mostly did nothing, was atrocious with the ball and was culpable for most of the poor play.

Koeman then took off his best players and we lost our collective spine and folded.

I will not deny willing and effort on behalf of the players, but we have no threat – mostly because we are too concerned with the opposition. I saw no improvement at all.

It's over, done with, Everton must act swiftly, or risk further damage to the cup competitions.

Davies and Rooney were good, Martina made a lot of ground down the right, often with Rooney straggling behind. If Rooney had decent runners, we would have a fighter's chance.

Ultimately those players are good enough, but consistently set up poorly in their wrong position impacts their output and now their very fragile confidence.

Go back 12 months and none of the results so far would have been a surprise.

We have purchased a number of players who are not yet a team (work in progress). Top 4 forget it. Top 6 maybe, however, 6th but no higher.

Who have we bought that were being chased by the top 6? Answer: no-one. Why? Because they are not good enough to get us there.

Steve Walsh seems to me to be a bit of an enigma. When he does buy potential talent (Lookman), Koeman seems to ignore him and others.

We have been fed numerous optimistic/speculative messages that we are on the cusp of a new era. Well, my interpretation of a cusp is nearly there, but so far, other than Stoke, we have played teams that will finish above us at the end of the season.

We are going to have to be patient; work in progress. Koeman will be given time, so calling for his head will not happen.

Baines for some reason gets away with being shite because he called Martinez out and is one of us. Well, he was shite today and has been for a while. When was the last time he beat the opposition full back at the bye line and put a cross in? When was the last time he made a tackle?

As for the rest of the defence: Martina – shite, Coleman would be better with one leg;

Jagielka – too slow, only seems to be able to either pass it back or sideways to Baines...

Keane – still a work in progress.

When your best defender is Ashley Williams, who has been shite all season, then we are in serious trouble.

The only two players to come out of that today with any credit where Tom Davies and Wayne Rooney. Both of whom Koeman took off; Schneiderlin should have come off instead. We lacked pace again yet Lookman, Lennon and Vlasic were nowhere to be seen again!

We have signed £150 million worth of players in the summer, yet the most needed one, a striker who can put the ball in the net, wasn't signed. We knew Lukaku was going yet, for whatever reason, we didn't bother signing anyone to replace him. For this reason alone, Koeman should be sacked, never mind that we now find ourselves in the bottom three!

You can't expect a knackered Rooney and two kids to replace Rom. Challenging for the Top Six? If he carries on, we'll be in the bottom six all season!

I was disappointed with Baines today. There was quite a few occasions when he had the opportunity to run with the ball and try to whip on a cross.It never happened.

I am starting to think now that it never will. I am hoping for a resurgence comes with a few wins and renewed confidence. But the reality is that a quality replacement is needed.

That doesn't mean I'm happy though. We are miles off the top clubs, but that was always potentially the case with the gambles on the likes of Sandro and Klaassen hitting the ground running, and the failure to get at least 3 more senior players in the transfer window. The lack of pace was a glaring omission (which Giroud would not solve) as was the lack of reasonable cover for Funes Mori and Baines.

If Calvert-Lewin hadn't had a storming start to the season, or Rooney not shown reasonable fitness, then we would be even worse off. Somebody has to be accountable for the weaknesses in the squad, which dictates how competitive we will be as much as tactics / motivation can.

Returning to today's game, Martina was one of our best performers; Sigurdsson looked like the player who failed at Spurs; Gana actually stymied some of our attacks by halting his forward motion off the ball, which he does too often for my liking; Pickford has to be more wary when playing the ball with his right foot, and we will struggle all season if we continue to rely on Jagielka and Williams passing from the back (Keane was better at this but he seems to be suffering a crisis of confidence at the moment).

I don't blame Lukaku for his reaction to scoring against us. Even if ToffeeWeb isn't entirely representative, he cannot fail to have become aware that a sizeable portion of Everton supporters thought he was a bone idle waste of space, who actually made us a worse team overall, and we should snatch the hands off anyone stupid enough to offer us a decent amount of money (not that any manager worth his salt would be interested, of course!).

I trust that everyone can now see that there is sometimes a tangible worth in sealing the win even when the opposition doesn't score. Our defenders will not be looking forward to facing him again.

The players' confidence is shot, especially at the back, no surprise since they have to do most of the work.

So you really think those home bankers are easy?

Come back, Bobby Brown Shoes, all is forgiven.

There is such ridiculous bile aimed at some players that a narrative is created that increases pressure on them (most evident in the attacks on Ross – a player that the top two teams in the Premier League last season believe can improve them). However, the lack of pace and the lack of a target man give no outlet and increases the pressure on players leading to more mistakes.

I don't like Koeman but I think he needs a little more time (not a lot) – but he needs to learn. The failure of managers to accept their mistakes is the key IMHO to how long managers should be given.

He has to try Niasse, Lookman and Kenny. The team is starting to gel but they could gel into one of the greatest passing teams in the world and still get hammered regularly unless there are players available for the outlet.

We play with 7 defenders (if not more), there is no pace and barely any ambition. Take Sigurdsson. I've no doubt he is a good player, technically very accomplished, but I have no idea what question he is the answer to relative to our current squad... and I said as much before we bought him.

Why do we have so many players much the same and virtually nothing in the areas where we actually need them (a proven centre-forward, goalscorer, a left-back now Baines is clearly past it, a proper centre-back, rather than the shite that is Williams or a leggy Jagielka, to partner Keane etc).

Where there are options, for example to address the extreme lack of pace and statuesque play, these are not used, perhaps because they are beginners. But then you either believe in them or buy someone with pace that you do believe in.

I used to sense that Martinez was out of his depth but, unless he had far less input than he pretends, Koeman is demonstrating so quite openly, on a weekly basis or in a bad week, twice in a week...

We have completed fully one third of our 12 toughest games. No other team even comes close to that. Admittedly we only got a point from them but it's still a predominantly new team.

Also Ronnie has no clue what he's doing. Bring back Moyes (that's scouse humor in the face of adversity).

What's the point though? We've already seen what this manager will do against the 'big' sides. £6 Million a year and there's no hope for anything better. He actually got us to the point where a 4-0 loss is considered improvement! This is Everton Football Club!!!

I don't get why anyone would want to keep him. Pick almost any manager and he'll get 7th with this side. And we might even enjoy some decent football along the way.

How do those in charge expect the team to make a game of it in the opponent's half if they accept, as they blatantly have, there's absolutely no need for a centre-forward?

And if that's their logic, what's coming next season? No goalie? No centre-backs, but four centre-forwards?

It's that stark, and someone owed it to the fans to get it right in the window just closed, not next January or next summer.

I'm patient to a fault re the time required for "gelling" but a proper gel obviously needs all of the ingredients – otherwise, it remains a watery mush bereft of substance. Southampton had a proper gel in both of the two seasons Koeman did so well for them, what with goalies, defenders, midfielders, attackers and everything together.

Who at Goodison let us/you down so badly, Mr Moshiri, and why are they still here?

Those with the strongest opinions, the really really pissed-off brigade like me, will be at Goodison Park on Wednesday, supporting those turning out in blue – not hating or booing or anything else.

That's not the same as somehow hiding from what I think quite a lot of us feel right now, which is that the manager is having a torrid time, doesn't seem to understand the shape or setup etc he wants to play because he isn't sure about which of his players he actually wants to turn out. He seems to be repeating his stubborn dour disorganised streak from last season – one win in ten, remember?

There's a sense from many of the fan comments I've seen and heard today that he's genuinely in a mess and it's communicating itself to the players, a number of whom have been... let's see now... utter shite from pre-season to now.

Jay, you suggest that we are in the midst of some kind of evolution from an aging side to some kind of energetic, vibrant, exciting outfit? Our defence today was one of the oldest lineups I've seen us start? We had a five with three players aged 31-35 and up front our sole attacker for a long time, is 31 and, though he's been a superstar, he was I really believe not bought to be a lone forward but a player sitting deeper and picking out a pass.

Evertonians are generally a passive bunch, let's be honest. We are amazingly patient. Koeman has been here nearly 18 months. We improved to 7th last season and yes, we were by miles Best of the Rest... but also a long way off 4th.

I think we are somehow going backwards when measured against those six we now think of as "above us". I don't think we have really spent the money some think we have and arguing that "net" spend doesn't matter – it's "amortisation that counts"? Well sorry, I don't agree.

So, it's not hating. It's not even being unrealistic. I didn't think we'd start too well but never imagined the series of pitiful tonkings we've endured. Winning the next four home games is a must for me, but it's not suddenly going to start signalling a huge turnaround.

Beating Arsenal in the next few weeks will help. Recovering some lost Europa League ground will help. Actually starting to play well, compete, and get some wins against the glass ceiling crew – that will signal we have overcome this horrible start, along with three or four top additions in January because, when added to Bolasie and Coleman returning, that's going to feel like a bloody revolution compared to now.

The close season optimism has evaporated once the reality of the situation begins to take hold. The signings we made don't look quite so good now. Not one of our new players was pursued by anyone else apart from the mighty Leicester enquiring about Sigurdsson. We bought players no-one else really wanted. And it's not hard to see why.

Pickford –– Young and still with a lot to learn

Keane – looks a nervous wreck

Sigurdsson – £45m?????? Swansea must be laughing their collective cock off

Rooney – several years past his best.

Sandro – if he scores 5 goals in an Everton shirt, I'll eat my hat!!

Added to that are two centre-backs that would not get a game in any other Premier League side, a left-back struggling to keep up with the pace of the game, central midfielders without a positive bone in their bodies, and not a single "goal scoring" striker in the entire squad!!

Whoever let it get to this needs sacking. Whether it is Koeman, Walsh or the board. But it's Everton so nothing will change and Moshiri will spin us some bullshit about Bramley-Moore.

But you're right: let's not talk about it too loud. Even Old Brown Shoes is getting some positive references around here. Next up: Mike Walker.

Brutal facts; we have the seventh best resources in the league. That is the barometer. Any less is failure, any better is good.

If you look at that objectively, within factual measure that you want to see good players, playing a clear pattern of play, the emphasis on winning games.

That simply isn't there; those even suggesting Koeman stays on are stretching credibility. Not one person when countered on here about the style of football played can give me any marker of progress we are, can or will play some form of attacking football worthy of our support.

The arguments, however eloquent, are simply convoluted excuses; bad fixtures, too many fixtures, failing to gel, missing players, missed targets.

Not one positive, constructive arguement in support him staying. When something is rotten, you cut it back completely; you don't wait, let it fester and infect the rest of the organisation.

Our club might embrace mediocrity but they can only get away with it if our fans also accept it & unfortunately too many people are willing to accept this embarrassing shite.

Having said that, losing by 12 goals over four games is atrocious. The me from a few seasons ago would be disgusted by what I'm about to say, but, regardless of how toothless the side is in attack, they need to go back to basics and concentrate on defending more than anything at the moment, especially against the upcoming "weaker" opposition who will no doubt throw themselves forward.

In regard to the match, Martina had an encouraging game, so I may end up eating my own words on him. Lukaku pissed me off with his goal celebration until I heard his post-match presser. He is very self-aware and smarter than most people involved in the game.

Oh and Lukaku is a narcissistic classless twat – but then we already knew that, didn't we.

Just gone back and read a thread on our post-season expectations for the season ahead to see what we were thinking. That's a fair way to judge performance isn't it?
http://www.ToffeeWeb.com/season/16-17/comment/fanscomment/35063.html

Makes interesting reading. We all knew Lukaku was going... but I didn't see a single post that would accept these kind of results and performances.

Personally, I didn't have lofty ambitions. I said I'd accept a similar outcome if I could see a bit of progress in terms of playing style and attitude in big games. So far, Koeman is failing even the most pessimistic of Evertonian targets.

The only arguments I can see for not swinging the axe right now are the cost and alternative options available. There's just no point to having this bloke at the helm – we're going nowhere.

Koeman says the players lack confidence. Is that surprising given he drops any player who dares to take on a player or makes a mistake. And he won't play anyone who hasn't got first team experience without explaining how exactly that situation is corrected.

We have a gutless, clueless manager who has even more ready made excuses as the previous incumbent, for the failures if 'his' team. This group of players is turning out the identical dross to the set of players he had at his disposal last season. There is no excuse for that in my opinion.

What it illustrates is that Koeman is inept and totally one-dimensional as a coach. He seems incapable of reacting to changing situations and whatever players he has available will be instructed to play in one way only, or face being dropped from the squad, not just the first team.

Four games with a 0-12 aggregate score is unacceptable for any Premier League club and is without any shadow of doubt, relegation form. If action isn't taken to remove the tumor that is Ronald Koeman from the body that is Everton FC, the only result I can see is a long season fighting relegation. Is that what we want from one of the highest paid managers in the world? Don't we deserve more, better?

Koeman's post match comments only serve to demonstrate his own low standards of expectation. He plainly sees mid table mediocrity as the pinnacle of Everton's potential. Is this what you get for £6m a year in the current managerial market? Have our fans become so brainwashed that we look on defeat as an improvement just because we played with a bit more heart than in the previous three consecutive defeats?

No, no, and no again! What we are seeing is an almost exact repeat of the situation that saw Koeman sacked from his job at Valencia, a once proud club that in many ways is still struggling to cast off the legacy of failure he bequeathed them. Inability to adapt or change tactics, public castigation of his players, alienating top players, failing to accept any personal responsibility for a horrendous string of results... Sound familiar anyone?

It's still a mystery to me, just what Moshiri saw in Koeman that justified such an inflated salary. At the time, I would have preferred us to go for Unay Emery, not doing too shabby a job for PSG is he? And for far lower wages than the great Koeman the Clueless Conman, who must have talked one Hell of an interview with Moshiri.

Then, having kept Moshiri dangling, and finally agreeing to take the job, did he immediately jet up to Liverpool to set about the pre-season business of his new club? Nope – he jetted off on his second holiday of that summer, only gracing us with his presence after completing his summer jollies. A bit like buggering off to play golf in Portugal on transfer deadline day, when I would think every other Premier League manager was at his desk, doing their damnedest to push for whatever last minute improvements they could add to their squads.

Ronald Koeman doesn't give two shits about Everton. We are nothing more than a stepping stone for him, and a lucrative one at that.

Until Moshiri realises he's been royally conned and made a fool of, we will be stuck with the fraudster. For God's sake, and for the sake of our club, I hope he wakes up sooner, rather than later.

Come on – get a formation that works.

If we are going to work it so our right fullback is our only wide attacking outlet when we turn over ball, then we have to make sure he has delivery. Martina does not.

This is my issue with filling your midfield with central options. It becomes congested, one-paced, and you can see players curtailing their forward movement and looking around on the counter as the options in space or wide are behind them.

We have a run of relatively manageable games coming up, when I believe we will probably see some kind of recovery. For me, whilst this is welcome, it masks the obvious inadequacies behind Koeman's tactics.

I'd like to see Sandro get a run at No 9. 14 goals in a tough league in a poor side suggests this lad deserves more than a token cameo when we are chasing the game. He has pace and I'd like to see him hold his position high up the field and stretch teams. He is keen to make an impression and this draws him deep to get involved, but only increased our midfield traffic.

I'd like to see Sigurdsson at No 10. If you're going to play two holding midfielders then lets play two of Lennon, Mirallas, or Lookman to give us balance and an outlet. It's not rocket science and we don't have to cram our best 11 on the pitch.

Our attacking stats are the worst in the league in terms of shots on target. We have no focal point up front and cannot build momentum as we move the ball at snails pace. The 'lesser 'teams will simply sit back and then beat us for pace on the break when they see an opportunity.

You either need a big, powerful centre forward (Kane at Spurs) or lively, mobile, interchanging forwards, like Man City. We have neither and, without a goal threat, we won't win regular games – no matter who we play.

A lot of comment could have been pre-written as they bore no relation to the game and went after the usual scapegoats (Schneiderlin etc), without justification.

I saw the lineup and thought we'd be battered, thinking "Well, what's Plan B?" when Valencia scored. Slowly we got a foothold in the game and actually outplayed them for stretches.

Until Rooney (who was pivotal to our play) went off everyone had played well, even Schneiderlin. We'd escaped twice with unforced errors from Keane and Pickford but not so with Williams, who'd been our best defender, ironically. Game over at that point.

So what did Koeman get wrong? We were too deep and the midfield sitting right on the back 5, allowing Valencia all the time he wanted. Koeman keeps saying he wants them to push up so that they didn't is likely on the players (probably our slow centre-backs Williams and Jags). Maybe our central midfielders sit deep because the defence never step up to engage runners? I don't know but it's worth considering.

Davies as a right midfielder worked well, his pace and energy gave Young a tough time. In central midfield this season, he keeps vacating his position chasing the ball; not a problem out wide.

Sigurdsson was less effective and kept drifting inside. I think he has to play centrally or not at all. Alarm bells went off when we signed him and Koeman said he can play across the front. No, he really can't.

Subs I didn't like. Sandro tried but we lost something when Tom went off. Ditto with Rooney. We Rooney and Gana off and Herrera on they gained control in midfield and we looked stretched, with too many forwards on. Okay, we were chasing a goal.

So, despite the heavy defeat Koeman will not be sacked. Now, it's the job of him and the team to score some goals and get some wins. The desire, focus and energy was there tonight. If we can cut out the errors and create/finish our chances, we can turn things around and Koeman will get a reprieve. Fail and he is gone.

They could then sit back and play in 2nd gear for an hour or so, confident that they faced little or no threat (Tom Davies aside perhaps) from a team with zero pace – just like Spurs did at 3-0 up last Saturday.

No surprise to concede more in the last 10-15 mins as our aging side wilted against younger, fitter, more powerful athletes.

Carragher gives a concise summary on Sky (available on YouTube) – worth a listen if you've not heard it.

I agree with Mike Doyle. I have nothing but admiration for our away support but laughing at Lukaku hitting a free kick against a wall when we are 2 down was embarrassing for me. What kind of mentality is that?

Then it comes back and he scores. Last laugh on us again.

If there are no signs of improvement or a settled pattern of play or any forward planning in our overall MO by the end this season, then it's farewell Ronald Koeman.

We won't get relegated so let's hope he gets it right and get behind him.

The performance was much better and I don't think united were intentionally sitting back after the early goal. We played our way into the game and Davies and Rooney were instrumental in that.

Gueye covered all over the place and we missed him and Davies in those last poor minutes of the game. Martina was surprisingly good too.

A shame about the result but we did play well for most of the game. Lukaku, as I always suspected, is a complete and utter wanker.

This is the same Lukaku who when asked what he thought about events at his old club (leading up to yesterday's game) said "What happens at Everton doesn't interest me."

If you can't understand why they laughed well......... agh what's the point.

It is worth pointing out, that in 18 games played by Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and Spurs against teams other than those 4, only 5 points have been collected by the opposing sides (I think) out of a possible 54.

I'll say between now and the end of November, we are going to head back up the league table like a rat up a drainpipe.

I know what you mean but what do we gain from it? It's more classy to pretend the man didn't exist, like he thinks we don't.

Never give a tit the chance to have the last laugh.

Does anyone on here actually agree with the way he sets up the team and with the method of football he's trying to deploy? I certainly don't. We are a terrible team to watch right now, same as we were last season.

At least under Martinez we played exciting football (at times) especially in the first half of 13-14 and 15-16 seasons.

These thoughts no way condone the way we have played, the constant changes, poor substitutions, no wingers etc etc, but I did see some hope in the way the players stuck at until the last seven minutes.

I will not fret if Koeman goes but yesterday might be the start of a different attitude by everyone concerned, the board, manager, players and coaches, maybe not. I am as hard to please as anyone on here and if that glimmer of hope doesn't materialise I'll be back moaning (and rightly so) with the rest of you.

This of course, takes time, we couldn't get any in until January, unless they are Bosman's, it's not very encouraging, to state the obvious.

I totally agree with your points on team selection, not only that, his substitutions, yesterday, being case and point, he takes off the players who actually did something positive during the game, and brings on players too late, and we concede three goals in seven minutes.

I am worried for the future, but as ever, hopeful.

Now if he hadn't brought on attacking players at the 65th min mark, you would be complaining that we lost one-nil, and should have attacked the game. He did that, and we lost 4 nil.

It seems Koeman is damned if he does, damned if don't.

Davies should have stayed on and he should have taken off Schneiderlin who along with a few others yesterday was playing within himself and doing nothing for the team.

It's a sign of a dithering coach who, when losing a game decides to go on the attack by replacing a forward with another forward.

He needed to "up" his number of attacking players on the park and not simply change like for like.

Schneiderlin was aching to be hooked yesterday and even my son who is 11 said "he needs to get Mirallas on and take Schneidy off, he's doing nowt".

It's all history now but surely if you need a goal you don't take off a forward off, that's how I see it and conversely if you want to shore up your 1-0 lead you put on a defensive player. You don't take off a centre-back and replace him with another defender, you hook an attacker and put on a defensive type player.

And who did they replace?

Good post mate, spot on.

That's how I'm looking at it now, we've got to build some confidence and get in the groove. Get the players playing and understanding each other's games.

I'm hoping that now the tornado season is over Klaassen and Sandro can bed in better and get some form going. And the defence can rattle off some clean sheets.

Sounds good, doesn't it... that's the theory part done and dusted.

A forward that most on here claim is old, past it and no longer has the legs to play in a forward position. Based on that alone, wouldn't you agree fresh legs for old legs make sense?

For what it is worth, I will stand by getting slated if it backfires but I would certainly consider the above three players on Wednesday.

I thought the day he left he will be in their ear to sign Barkley because I see how much he likes him. The way things have panned out I still see it happening unless we somehow get Barkley to commit.

Their midfield is another year older and I don't see the likes of Herrera or Mata being at the top of their game for another season. The fact Lukaku wants good team mates doesn't bother me mate he was the same here.

He's been honest from day one to be fair. He was always ambitious and always talking about improving.

Apart from that we're still fucking shit.

No width. No pace. No centre forward.

You can't play without a striker. You can't have your (technically) best player in Rooney playing every position at once. The bloke was playing centre half and full back half the time.

Play DCL from the start, FFS. Buy another striker in January.

End of story.

Danny Murphy doing his best 'Little Big Man' there.

Ok, Rooney was among the better performers of a pretty piss poor bunch, but to say his display against Man United was "sensational" is disengenous flattery on par with Paul Daniels publicly dubbing his 'Despicable Me' beaked missus the bloody "lovely" Debbie Mcgee.

Rooney put in the effort and tried to make something happen (which is the least one would expect of someone with a point to prove turning out against their former club), but he fluffed his lines when presented with two great chances to drag Everton back into the game. If he buried them both (as he should have done), then you could certainly understand people bigging him up as being "sensational" on the day. The way things actually went down makes Murphy's praise sound like nothing more than a bit of backslapping support for an arl mate having to build his reputation back up.

For me, Rooney has been a big part of the problem with the poorly balanced sides Koeman has been sending out this season. It's problematic playing him up top, as he no longer possesses the necessary physical attributes to pose more than a passing threat anywhere along the forward line and he looks as though he well and truly knows it himself; hence his dropping further and further back to try and find a bit of free space where he can put his foot on ball without fear of being instantly brushed aside, out-jumped or out-paced.

Whilst some people will lap up his 'looking to get on the ball', it conversely leads to the closing off of an outlet vital for any team looking to get out and up the pitch, whilst further clogging up an already fully congested midfield area. Sandro has been guilty of similar in his time on the pitch, dropping deep and haring around in areas where a forward can't harm any fucker (although the impetus there seems to be 'Scrappy Doo'ish desperation to make some sort of mark, rather than him being physically shagged or incapable of running the other way).

You are pretty consistent with how balanced you are. I will agree it felt like we played better yesterday but I looked at that performance and cannot agree.

The first 15minutes we were all at sea. Davies was doing shuttle runs and we were gagging to concede. Sure the goal was impressive but the mentality was bunker down.

The period of the game, which many think we were an improvement was that middle third. United let us play in soft zones, no pressure on our possession, to which end we bobbed up and down the midfield with an occasional threat.

We had no periods of concerted pressure, no penetration mostly through fear and are only outlet was an right back who is not good enough.

And even in that time Keane had time to set Lukaku up for the miss of the season.

It looked like we were popping it around okay but truly its not an improvement when you cannot exercise the opposing centre halves to more than a brisk jog about and at the same time look like a jenga tower teetering on the brink at the back.

Eventually the substitutions and another mistake saw that jenga tower collapse but in truth there is nothing there highlight an improvement.

The appearance of 'having a go' is not borne out statistically either, our territory map is exactly what youd expect.

United had one hand on our forehead like a bigger schoolkid and 1-0 or 4-0 makes no difference. It was poor.

The rot needs to be stopped and now. Koeman has had 18 months and in that time we have regressed. Koeman has played with genuine width in one match this season and that is the most entertaining footie we've seen which was home to Split.

Koeman for whatever reason believes having 7-9 defensive players on the pitch at any one time is the answer to trying to carve out a result to improve confidence.

Not using all of the players available at his disposal to try different formations and tactics is just ridiculous.

Despite what opinions some of us may have about the likes of Mirallas, Lookman, Kenny, Lennon and Niasse they all offer something the most recent teams picked lack which is pace and an attacking mentality.

All of the above players appear to be sat in the naughty corner for whatever reason. If Koeman won't try something different then he deserves to be binned and quickly to allow someone else (Unsworth) to try and salvage the season who will pick round pegs for round holes and not try to shoehorn players into positions they are not suited for.

At the end of the game I would have to concede that Man Utd deserved to win, but if Koeman has the sense to change his tactics and use a couple of players with speed then there is easy enough heart in this squad to get us out of the rut we are in.

I understand and agree with fans having a go at the manager, he can't complain, he's had enough time to have us playing a lot better than we have, especially in away games since he started with the club.

I just think there was a glimmer of hope in certain parts of the game yesterday that we will soon start the season as we should have done at the beginning of August.

I really don't know what the best solution would be, if Koeman resigns, it certainly makes all, a bit clearer and the Board would have to appoint someone, or get a caretaker, from within.

At least manager's are not only available during a window, but, being the Devil's Advocate, who is going to let a successful manager go, and conversely, if they would, it could be for a reason?

At the end of the day, it cost them a lot of money to get Koeman, and he has spent a large wad, seemingly unwisely on most to date, it's an unwelcome situation, no matter which way we look at it.

The mistake I think he's making based on the players he has available, is that he isn't player a striker Calvert-Lewin) and he isn't using any pace or width.

Seems pretty simple to me!

On a deeper basis, as a club we just seem risk averse. That goes from the team's approach to the way we run as a business. Everything is safe and "good enough but no more".

Our managerial appointments are as expected. There's never anyone who surprises or who you think "wow, that's imaginative".

And given the way that the business of football is set up, the only thing that a club that's "best of the rest" can do to break that glass ceiling is to take risks. It might not work, risks can blow up in your face. But a risk-averse approach like we take might keep us in and around the top of that best of the rest group, but it'll never take us further.

Walsh and the Board did fail us there! I would think that Koeman says Yes or No in the end, but if they brought him no strikers to approve of, what would his Yes/No mean?

To me that seems an alien way to run a team, but then I only know how English football used to work for the past 40 years, not how Continental football might have differed...

We already know as Koeman was pointing out for 3 months that we need a good striker and left-back cover.

Losing Bolasie and Seamus in particular was a major blow as was not getting Sigurdsson until the season started.

We need some time to see how the pieces gel and to regain some confidence in the players. Any change should be made in January when a new manager could bring in his choice of players but I really believe Koeman will have turned it around by then.

Calvert-Lewin is not the panacea for all of our ills upfront but he is the best option to lead the line. We then need to pick 1 from 3 to play in the hole. Given the outlay on Sigurdsson, he is the obvious option. We have no problems find two holding midfield players, we possess an army of them. However, I would prefer a different combination to the two that lined out yesterday. We lack an out and out winger and that issue won't be solved until Bolasie returns.

I think we have to bit the bullet at the back and play Kenny at right back and Holgate in the centre alongside Keane. Baines is still the best option at left back. Jagielka and Williams as part of a back 4 or a back 5 simply do not work!

Not easy being a blue!

At the moment, this is what we are stuck with until January. Over to Koeman; get it sorted eh ?

No, that is just the point, he just says he wants such-and-such "type" of player, and the DoF/Board are supposed to find them and convince them to sign. He just gives his approval of the choice, or dismisses it.

Heh, and there are enough examples of managers in that style of management that got players they did not want, so I hope Koeman at least can say "no" at EFC!

This is reflected by him constantly blaming the player's rather than looking closer to home such as training methods/techniques, team formation/tactics and finally player selection that he is ultimately responsible for.

Koeman is just another brand of bullshit merchant like Martinez who is clueless how to rectify the mistakes he has made.

I think you're giving Koeman too many excuses. It's a perfectly valid method of managing player purchases.

He identifies the types of players he wants; e.g. "we need to find a left sided midfielder with pace, and a good goalscoring record, with x, y, z other qualities". Walsh and scouting team go out and identify those players and come back to him with options, and no doubt Koeman will have mentioned potential targets himself.

There's absolutely no suggestion that he's having players he doesn't want, or in the wrong positions, forced upon him.

IMO, it's lack of pace at the back that's the problem, as Jagielka, Baines & Williams don't want to go too far from the 18 yard line, because they haven't got the pace to recover which means the whole team are 25 yards too deep.

Baines looks shot and raids down the wings are getting rare and surely it's a bit too much to ask him to play 2-3 games a week. What's happened to Garbutt & Galloway? Obviously the management doesn't fancy either of them but they're better than nothing, and that's what we've got at the moment should Baines get injured or suspended – nothing.

Agree with the majority that it was a better performance albeit from a very low base, but then again Mourinho is a wily old fox and the best in the business at game management, and it's becoming a pattern this season for United to be in 2nd gear at 1-0, then take the game away from the opposition late.

As good a performance as you can expect from the rapidly ageing Williams, but that's the 2nd season in a row he's cost us at Old Trafford.

I was more than delighted with a point at Man City and duly expected no more (maybe one if we were lucky). And also no one should lump the RS in with the likes of Chelsea, Spurs or Man City. They'll twat Leicester 4-0 next week and draw 1-1 with some lowly team the week after and lose to us in the derby. One-trick poney, blistering pace in attack... oooo

Of course he chooses the players, along with his brother, and Walsh – anyone who thinks the manager doesn't have any, or much of a say in who we sign is completely wrong.

He doesn't do the deals, but he does choose the targets – along with Walsh who does the scouting, talks to players teams etc.

Personally, I think our problems are very simple – we play too narrow, and we lack pace. Now for whatever reason, Koeman refuses to use our wingers (Lookman, Mirallas, Lennon, Vlasic) and therefore we struggle because teams pin us back; we're vulnerable down the sides (no fullback cover) and we can't break on teams because (A) we have no width, and (B) we have no pace (see above).

I don't see why this isn't so glaringly obvious to the management team. Everyone on here appears to know it; every journalist seems to know it .

I don't think the team looks good at all, I didn't in the qualifiers for the Europa League, there was something missing. A lot of money spent on not a lot of quality. We are missing Barry, Bolasie, Barkley and Coleman.

Williams and Jagielka did their bit, but to be fair they were under the cosh constantly and have been in every game we have played. There were a lot of schoolboy errors in the basic play, giving the ball away and at times a lack of ball control, bouncing off our players and on to United's players.

I don't know whether Everton are just poor or whether the gulf at the top has just got wider. The top five all seem to play better than us.

The Premier League has now become three tier, the quality at the top and the nearly men in the middle and the knife edge men at the bottom. I don't know if sacking Koeman will make any difference, I doubt it.

The only things I honestly believe will improve things is to bring in Unsworth as manager, and to start to integrate the youngsters into the team; we have enough of them of more than sufficient quality to turn what is at present a dire season around.

The last thing I want to see is the young players being passed over and then sold for nothing.

It's very different in the Premier League to the PL2.

4-0 is 4-0. Following on from three 3-0 hammerings, this is pathetic and a disgrace. It's not even the results that warrants Koeman getting booted out the club. It's what he has done.

Buying too many players was always stupid as it's hard for them to gel quickly. Constantly changing the team doesn't help but constantly changing system is suicide as there is no continuity, no chance for the side to knit together.

Koeman is an utter fool and needs to be sacked now. 20 years of shite and the nonsense continues. It's an incredible shambles. If he doesn't get the sack the Derby will be another humiliation and it will be the boards fault.

Sort it out now – just bring in Unsworth and Ferguson – they can't possibly be as stupid – and hopefully Barkley will then stay and show his true potential.

Every team needs a mix of youth and experience and we might be overly cautious when it comes to erring on the side of experience.