Rooney penalty papers over glaring cracks in Koeman's tenure

By Lyndon Lloyd 16/10/2017  192 Comments  [Jump to last]
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By the end of this month, the situation at Everton as it relates to Ronald Koeman’s tenure will likely be a lot clearer… at least for those still labouring under the belief that things are somehow going to get better under a manager whose lack of passion and imagination in front of the cameras is reflected starkly in the performances of his team on the pitch.

Of course, by the end of October, the season could already be over… at least in the context of the club’s hopes of pushing on, improving on last seventh place and attempting to follow Manchester United’s route into the Champions League by winning the Europa League. Yes, there will be the not-insignificant matter of the FA Cup left but who could be confident of any tangible progress being made in that competition either?

Four games from now, the excuses — or at least any remaining shred of validity to them — will have run out if the team doesn’t start winning. The disrupted pre-season, the early start to competitive action, that difficult start to the Premier League campaign… none of that will wash if Koeman tries to blame them for more unacceptable results like the one today in Brighton. Truth be told, it never washed in the first place — it’s been the performances not the results per se that have been the issue all along.

On paper, this was the sort of fixture that a team boasting £140m of new talent should have won. Any doubt should have been removed after 30 minutes of “action” because Everton were controlling the match with around 65% of the possession but had threatened Matt Ryan in the Seagulls’ goal just once.

The Australian had to palm Idrissa Gueye’s low drive aside in the 19th minute and would later watch the same player curl a shot narrowly past his far post but otherwise there was almost no penetration from the visitors in the first half.

Listing the reasons is becoming redundant because they’ve become a feature of every game. Players played out of position; defensive formations and unadventurous tactics; in-form or potentially creative players left on the bench or unused completely.

Everton are simply dull. They’re boring to watch, easy to defend against and too easy to score against if you attack them enough within a given 90 minutes. That Brighton didn’t make the breakthrough with half an hour gone following Gueye’s unforgivably poor giveaway in midfield owed much to Michael Keane’s excellent block to deny Lewis Dunk from the angle.

But, having survived the few occasions after half time that Everton threatened — Nikola Vlasic, one of the few positives at the moment, was unfortunate to slip as he shot after turning his marker brilliantly and Dominic Calvert-Lewin might have done better with a left-foot shot following excellent work of his own — Chris Hughton’s men did score eight minutes from time.

Substitute José Izquierdo, making the kind of impact you feel Ademola Lookman might have had on proceedings were he not frozen out of contention by his manager, had already forced a save from Jordan Pickford shortly after coming on and it was he was denied again by the Blues’ keeper after Bruno Saltor had waltzed his way past Calvert-Lewin and centred invitingly.

Morgan Schneiderlin was slow to react to the rebound, however, which was seized upon by Pascal Groß and Anthony Knockaert was on hand to power the ball home from a central position.

Granted, Brighton midfielder Davy Pröpper could have considered himself fortunate to still be on the field after only receiving a yellow card 10 minutes after the interval and Groß should have been penalised for a blatant tug of Gylfi Sigurdsson’s jersey in his own box. But Everton should have had enough to already be comfortably ahead had they not been stymied by another blunt formation that had Wayne Rooney — yes, that Wayne Rooney who most observers had concluded last season was finished as a striker and needed to drop back into midfield — up front, Calvert-Lewin playing wide on the left and both Schneiderlin and Gueye in the team while the more dynamic Tom Davies sat on the bench.

Had the game finished 1-0, the paucity of the display and Koeman’s responsibility for it would have been laid bare in the same manner as it was before the international break against Burnley. The Dutchman was saved, to a degree, by Bruno who inexplicably checked Calvert-Lewin with an elbow to the throat as the young striker tried to meet a late Sigurdsson free kick and referee Michael Oliver pointed to the spot.

Rooney stepped up and despatched the penalty with a clinical shot born of all his years of experience and Kevin Mirallas came close to delivering three hardly-deserved points in stoppage time. Ryan foiled him twice in quick succession with reaction saves, denying the Belgian some personal redemption but Koeman some more paper with which to cover the glaring cracks in his tenure.

It’s a laudable and very Evertonian trait to want to give every manager the fullness of time to prove himself. The 1983/84 precedent is not one any Blue of a certain vintage will forget but it’s difficult to see a “Kevin Brock” moment sparking this Everton team into life under the current incumbent of the Goodison hotseat.

There just isn’t enough balance or inspiration in the sides the manager keeps putting out and his inability to diagnose problems that have become obvious offers no evidence that he has the nous for the job he is being handsomely to perform. Everton have won just one game away from home since Boxing Day last year, their worst record on the road since 2002/03; frankly, they’ve been garbage away from Goodison for the entirety of Koeman’s time at the club.

Whether it’s because of Koeman’s own apparent lack of love for Everton FC or a general ennui brought on by yet another false dawn at Goodison Park, there is a palpable feeling of apathy slowly consuming the fanbase. Most know that no moves to address the situation will be made until it’s far too late — when the Blues are out of Europe, out of the League Cup and still mired in the wrong half of the table.

Evertonians backed the sense of evolution they felt was occurring under Farhad Moshiri and the man in whom he has invested heavily as the chosen leader of the team by purchasing season tickets in record numbers; they continue to travel the length and breadth of the country and the Continent to follow their club in numbers matched by few others. They continue to be let down and look doomed to be so for a while yet unless something drastic changes.

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Reader Comments (192)

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Christopher Timmins
1 Posted 16/10/2017 at 07:39:55
Lyndon

It is just so sad to see where things currently stand with the team. I am hoping against hope that there will be a change in the fortunes of the team in the near future. However, it is just impossible to see where the change is going to come from unless there is a change in manager.

Jim Bailey
2 Posted 16/10/2017 at 07:55:09
Excellent, Lyndon, echoing what seems to be the majority of the fans feelings. Koeman has proven to be obstinate, arrogant and out of his depth, either unwilling or unable to rectify obvious flaws with his tactics and formations.

As others have previously mentioned, Palace got rid of De Boer in double quick time, after realising their mistake in appointing him. That speaks of ambition and a no-nonsense approach.

Meanwhile we have Kenwright and Moshiri twiddling their thumbs as Everton sink ever lower. Surely something has to happen soon or this club will become a complete laughing stock, if it already isn't. The players we have are for the most part, very good players who are having their confidence eroded at a frightening pace. With the right sort of manager in charge I don't think it would take too long before we begin to see the confidence flow back, and the "real" players emerge.

As for a replacement, many names have been put forward. My shout would be for Unsworth until January which gives our illustrious leaders time to sound out any replacements. Then again, Unsworth might prove to be the answer, who knows.

The one certainty in all of this is that Koeman is most definitely not.

Over to you, Moshiri.

Christine Foster
4 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:04:45
Frustrating article, Lyndon, in which your annoyance and frustration is apparent for all to see. You are not alone and rightly so; the only bright spot for me was the introduction of Mirallas and it was his driving run at pace that drew the professional foul that led to the penalty. We made our own luck with that.

It is perhaps the obstinate application of a wingerless formation that is Koeman's downfall. Yes we are shipping goals but that is due to the midfield sitting way too deep and actually preventing the defence room to push out. We are criminally vulnerable when attacked on the wings as we have no-one with pace to counter and thereby keep the opponents defence back. We concede 70% of the pitch and cannot attack at pace.

It cannot go on but will not change unless Koeman sees the light on his road to Damascas (sorry, Barcelona ) or he is relieved of his tenure.

In many respects, the answer is simply, if the players you have at your disposal cannot succeed with the game plan, you change the plan. The lack of width, pace and structure means everyone leaves responsibility in the changing room.

We have a very good set of players, even without a centre forward of note, but for me it's the attitude of the dogmatic manager who refuses to change, that has alienated players and please, more than any one comment that got me was his appalling comments regarding the lack of creativity in the side when you have Barkley, Mirallas, Lookman, Sigurdsson and Rooney... three you won't play and two played out of position. For God's sake, man, wake up!

A little bit of footballing advice.

Last season you played Barkley behind The static and generally immobile Lukaku, with no other outlets wide, for distribution or creativity ( if you want creativity it needs other players to be running into space, attacking?)

It doesn't matter who wears the No 10 shirt because, unless they have options to distribute a killer pass, they will never succeed. You need pace and width for those options and that's why the formations he is playing will never be creative or successful.

He needs to change now, which I doubt he will or be replaced, which I doubt the board will do. His obstinacy will be the death of us.

John McGimpsey
5 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:30:37
Sad times ahead, the Dutch tactical master needs the sack today but it probably come after the next three. A clearout from the front row of the bench, including the jock and the front row of the main stand, is what Moshiri should and has to do.

I would hope once this fool is sacked that Ross signs a 5-year deal and provides the skill and killer passes we all know he can. I know if I had a boss that bad-mouthed me and others on the training ground, I would chin the snake.

Hopefully when he is sacked a new boss can see how strong this squad is and realise that only 11 can play and play in certain positions. Holding my breath in hoping Blue Bill can be lashed out the door as well.

Come on, Moshiri, make us happy. Over to you.

John Keating
6 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:38:01
I did think from the end of last season until yesterday that Koeman was just incompetent in all his managerial duties, tactics, man-management etc. However, now I am convinced he actually isn't. I think Koeman realised long ago he didn't want to be here.

I think Koeman is deliberately and with malice, acting to get the boot. He leaves a job he doesn't want and with a shed load of money.

I think our experiment with foreign managers should be shelved and we should do a Brexit and look closer to home.

David McMullen
7 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:38:08
As stated Everton are dull, boring to watch, easy to defend against and easy to score against. At least two things about us stand out for me is we can give a positive account sometimes but we are ultimately toothless when it comes to our finishing. We also will concede after even a small amount of concerted pressure and that ensures either we lose or don't win due to our lack of fire power.

I feel Koeman is deflecting any blame from himself with every excuse possible: needing time, new players, tough start, no pre-season, additional European games, etc. It's boring, like the football. I did back him from the beginning and understand the team needs time but not sure he's the one to lead the team out of this. I think Bill Kenwright and all are banking on a sort of early 80's change like Kendall. Didn't he have a magnificent seven at one point then the turbulent end of 1983...

I'm sorry it's not working with Koeman in the same way with Martinez but you know when it's time to send for a taxi. The club simply has to be ruthless under Kenwright we have been such a soft touch on and off the pitch and, for me, this is still an issue at the club.

Michael Lynch
8 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:51:16
I think everyone involved with Everton sees it like this except Koeman himself.

I know Davies is young, and will have some off games as he learns his craft, but right now he should be first name on the team sheet in games like Sunday's. There's absolutely nobody in Koeman's favoured line-up to move the ball forward quickly and, with the exception of the ever-willing Vlasic, nobody with the confidence to take on and worry the opposition.

Tony Marsh
9 Posted 16/10/2017 at 08:54:33
It would've been better for all of us had Brighton won yesterday. The draw gave Koeman a stay of execution. The problems at the club go beyond Koeman but it is Koeman who is to blame for on-field matters.

Football consists basically of three rules. Be able to pass the ball. Score as many goals as possible. Concede few goals as possible. Under Koeman we can't do any of the three.

Moshiri is either an incompetent fool or he is kidding us all for Kenwright's sake. No other chairman/owner in the country would have left Koeman to inflict so much damage on their investment as this Muppet Moshiri.

Expect some news tomorrow on Bramley-Moore... Yawn!!!

Anthony Newell
10 Posted 16/10/2017 at 09:37:44
"Ennui" what a great word. My own suspicion is Koeman threw his dummy out after the transfer window closed and there is major ill-feeling between him and the club. We're all now left to suffer the consequences whilst he goes through the motions. The Valencia parallels are shocking and you have to truly wonder how the hell he ended up here...

Moshiri needs to realise that he's playing at the big boys table and given the high stakes involved there is no time for procrastination. The astuteness to call a spade a spade and move on is a prerequisite for a successful 'player' in this world and it is indeed a 'results based business'.

I had a lot of time for Moshiri when he stated that Everton was not a museum for reflecting on success in times gone by, rather the focus should be on delivering success now. If he's true to his word he will realise that the Koeman project is a busted flush. Large chunks of the sale proceeds from player sales have been wasted. This, however, is the reality of football and sometime you get it wrong, ask any Spurs fan how they think the Bale money was spent or scrutinise some of Van Gaal's purchases.

I actually believe there is reason for hope and the spine of a very good side to build around with the likes of Pickford, Keane, Davies, Lookman, Sigurdsson. I also think there is potential for Barkley and Mirallas to be reintegrated.

Moshiri, as a successful business man must surely have the ability to recognise failing ventures. It's time to ante up and mothball this one.

John Otway
11 Posted 16/10/2017 at 09:41:52
Tony Marsh (#9). You don't become a self-made billionaire by being "an incompetent fool" or a "Muppet". If I was him and read your posting, I'd pull my investment, piss off back to Monaco and leave you and Kenwright to it! And as for "would of"!!
Ray Robinson
12 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:14:49
Tony (#9), whatever your views, and however justified they may be, please don't wish a defeat on the 3,000 travelling blues who got up at an unearthly hour to support the team.
Martin Mason
13 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:24:54
We should buy that Duffy lad. He had a good game yesterday until he got injured.
Jim Burns
14 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:29:01
Well said Ray – and thank you. Lyons awaits – may God be with us.

Great piece again, Lyndon. Just an observation on your title – I don't think the penalty, or the result, papered over any cracks. In fact, I think it widened them.

James Lauwervine
15 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:43:10
In the last couple of months of Martinez's time, I remember feeling an apathy towards Everton that I had never felt before. I was barely interested in even checking results, never mind watching a game. Yesterday, I saw the team and decided to go for a long walk with the dog instead of watching the game. I made the correct decision, it seems. It is that apathy that is back and it is poisonous. If supporters become disinterested then you've got a very serious problem!

I was positive about Koeman taking over from the start and, although I had some underlying concerns, I was generally pretty happy with last season's progress. I didn't like him and he obviously has no feelings for Everton, but that didn't matter; he struck me as someone the players would want to play for and someone who had a plan. Then there was the spending spree that started the summer window – we were suddenly the team to watch out for. What has happened in the last three months has been summarised countless times on TW already by people both more and less eloquent than me, so I won't repeat.

What is 100% certain in my mind now is that he has to go, just like Martinez had to go. Martinez should have been sacked earlier, at the very latest after that horrific derby game. Koeman should have been sacked at the very latest last week after the Burnley game.

I don't believe the problem is that we didn't replace Lukaku. I don't buy into the Koeman was let down by the board idea - he bought enough and he has a large enough pool of talented players at his disposal, with a mix of proven, experienced pros and genuinely exciting young prospects. Koeman is paid £6m a year for his expertise as a football manager. It is quite simply his job. He is supposed to have that key combination of tactical knowledge and motivational skills.

Like any manager he should be consistent and honest and has to command respect. Perhaps most important of all, he must embrace change and show a willingness to adapt. Koeman has, for me, completely failed in all of these aspects of a manager's role.

Mr Moshiri made an honest mistake in appointing him, I don't blame him and I certainly won't criticise him. It seemed like a good plan at the time and his decisive action at the time was refreshing. However, he has to act now to change things or we are heading for real disaster. Read what happened at Valencia, Mr Moshiri, even speak to people at that club.

Last season, at a point when the team was doing okay, I happened to talk to a Valencia fan (bit of a cliché but he was selling paella at a food fair). His venom towards Koeman shocked me. I mean he really, really hated him with a passion. I discounted it at the time (the paella was shite which didn't help his credibility) but now I'm starting to understand. If Koeman remains at Everton much longer, this is how a lot of us will feel too. Indeed, some clearly already do.

Martin Mason
16 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:57:31
The Lukaku thing is a red herring that gives Koeman an excuse for his incompetence. Even Lukaku wouldn't score in this team. That was why bringing Niasse on as first substitute yesterday was ridiculous. The problem wasn't a striker problem; getting the ball to a striker was the problem.

I hate to say it but Rooney was an embarrassment yesterday and was the butt of derision for the home fans; he needs to be at best an impact substitute.

I loved the "You're getting sacked in the morning" from the away fans.

Raymond Fox
17 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:20:49
Spot on, Lyndon, an excellent summing up of the situation. I also agree with Anthony's good post (#10).

Give David Unsworth Koeman's job to the end of the season, I'll bet my last pound that he will be an improvement on the present manager. Koeman has failed in every aspect of managing us both on the field and off, he's a train wreck.

I could be accused of being biased as David was best mates with my eldest son and played in the same school and youth teams together for a few years. He spent many a happy hour in my abode.

He's done an excellent job with the Under-23s. Okay, managing the first team comes with more pressure, but I'm sure he will get a lot more support than Koeman is receiving now.

It's not rocket science is it, we have plenty of good players who need to play in their best positions, surely David could improve on the dross we are watching at present and play more attacking football.

Laurie Hartley
18 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:24:16
Unfortunately for Moshiri it is time to cut his losses again. We just cannot carry on like this.

I'm expecting a "by mutual agreement" statement after Thursday's game.

Dave O'Connell
20 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:24:46
How many games can we suffer this? No plan, no tactics, and Koeman smiling on Match of the Day, happy to escape with a draw at Brighton.
John Raftery
21 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:37:33
Until the closing minutes, we were hopeless. With Mirallas on the pitch, Calvert-Lewin and Vlasic freed from their straitjackets we showed what we could do with a more flexible line-up. That said, we were grateful to Jordan Pickford for a great save with the score at 1-0.

I said when we signed him that Sigurdsson was the wrong player for the wrong position for the wrong price. No matter how often they play together, he and Rooney will continue to get in each other's way. Only one of them can play in the team.

Whoever is manager will need to grab hold of that issue and make a decision. His wonder goal in Split bought Sigurdsson some time but he has done nothing since to justify his place in the team, let alone the exorbitant fee. At the moment, I would pick Rooney if only because he can notch the odd goal, works harder and is more effective at tracking back.

Playing only one of them in the Number 10 role allows room for another attacking player in a wide role. At present that player ought to be Mirallas who, for all his inconsistency, at least offers some pace and a goal threat.

Then we have the central midfield problem. What is Schneiderlin for? Gareth Barry helped those around him, such as Gueye and before him McCarthy, look better players. Schneiderlin makes them look average or worse. His passing continually lets the team down, failing to move the play forward in any coherent way. Worse than that, at vital moments his defensive game is shocking; he misses vital tackles which in the last two games have led directly to the goals conceded.

As for Gueye, his work covering and tackling is often undone by his poor use of the ball. When he ventures forward teams allow him possession around the edge of their box, knowing he is highly unlikely to score more than one goal per season.

The Schneiderlin-Gueye duo will never form an effective partnership so there is a compelling argument for selecting Tom Davies, with his energy, quick positive passing and movement, in place of one of them.

With Holgate, Davies, Vlasic and Calvert-Lewin, we have a core of young players who have the enthusiasm and ambition to improve with experience. At present, they are being let down by players brought in by our current manager; players who are unlikely to improve beyond their current abysmal level.

Rick Tarleton
22 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:37:54
As ever, a perceptive and cogent article, Lyndon.

The real problem is that Koeman's desired formation of 3-5-1-1 is totally unsuited to the players in our squad.

Last season Barkley ran into a brick wall because there was no movement ahead and no pace deployed down the wings. Sigurdsson is facing a similar problem. Two defensive midfielders: one, the totally ineffective, Schneiderlin, mean that there is no flexibility whatsoever. Schneiderlin ranks with Ernie Hunt and Henry Newton as a player bought who is not needed. Davies would provide more energy and more attacking options, Besic is better defensively.

We have Klaassen, who is not looking as if he's a Premier League player, the accident-prone Williams, Rooney who is at best a 10-minute sub and Niasse whom he doesn't really want to use. What sheer chaos.

I don't know what the answer is, Koeman has had a substantial transfer chest and frittered it away. To sack him and have to pay compensation and then back another manager with funds would be very expensive, but if we leave Koeman in place we could be in a relegation struggle.

COYB. In hope rather than expectation.

Jerome Shields
23 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:44:56
Excellent analysis and 100 percent right in conclusions.
John Raftery
24 Posted 16/10/2017 at 11:55:31
Rick (#22), I think we are already in a relegation struggle. Our only League wins have been against two of the teams below us. Our inability to beat any of the teams above us suggests that the games coming up against Leicester and Palace are six-pointers.

Without an away win since January do we really fancy our chances to win either of those under the current regime with its moribund tactics and selection policies?

Dennis Stevens
25 Posted 16/10/2017 at 12:11:34
I can understand the Board not wishing to throw good money after bad by way of spending a further £10 million to get rid of Koeman; no doubt they desperately hope he will turn things 'round. However, they must have some kind of cut off point in mind. Surely the next International break in early November is the very latest they can leave it before taking action.

My only hope is that the Board have not yet acted as they're lining up the replacement so as to enable a smooth transition. If so, that would indicate that either they don't think Unsworth is yet ready, beyond a caretaker role, or that they consider his current role too important to the future of the Club to move him on from it just yet.

Ian Burns
26 Posted 16/10/2017 at 12:14:47
Great article, as always, Lyndon, and as always, right on the money.

My namesake Jim Burns –14- made a good point in that the title of the article should have read "widened" the gaps and not cracked over them.I am fed up posting my utter dissatisfaction with Koeman (I didn't want him from the off but was prepared to support him as our manager).

I just wish Unsy could be given the job on a temporary basis until the right manager is unearthed (unless is is Unsy himself of course). In the meantime I dread every match which comes around instead of looking forward to the game.

Kevin Tully
27 Posted 16/10/2017 at 12:34:22
Interesting article here about Paulo Fonseca, a possible ready-made replacement:

Link

Tom Bowers
28 Posted 16/10/2017 at 12:41:25
In three words ''it's a mess''. We all know what needs to be done but will Moshiri do it soon?

Absolutely nothing has changed since the first game and as a consequence the points keep getting dropped. Rooney up front is a no-no but Koeman persists.

Boring, slow, backwards and sideways passing is frightening no-one and with Everton breaks down far too easily once they get into the opponents half. Other teams employ the same tactics but seem to have more intensity and offensive threat once they move it forward even Brighton.

The ''Koeman Plan'' just isn't good enough.
With Lyon, Chelsea and Arsenal coming up, I fear the taxi will be waiting for Big Ron soon.

Daniel A Johnson
31 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:08:43
The Burnley and Brighton matches were the fixtures that would propel us into so called mid-table respectability.

With 1 point form a potential 6 and more tough fixtures on the horizon, the sun is now setting on Koeman, who will ultimately turn out to be a very expensive mistake.

Hindsight is wonderful thing. He was deemed by most a good choice following the undisciplined and gung-ho Martinez approach. He was supposed to bring a big name presence, organisation and authority. Yet somehow in the space of 18 months Koeman has muddled himself; he doesn't know his best 11 or how to deploy them. For a man on a rumoured £6M a year, this is simply incredible.

He has to go. I just hope his next replacement is also up to the task.

Mike Doyle
32 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:15:58
Good article, Lyndon.

The problem with being so slow (as we are) is that on the rare occasions that we do move up field/develop an attacking position, opposition teams are given ample time to recover their shape – making us very easy for competent teams to defend against.

Baines has been getting a hard time from some TW posters of late but, when he does move forward there is nobody in front of him. Essentially his options are (1) welly it up the field and concede possession; or (2) pass to a team mate – which means a sideways or backwards move.

The right full back has a similar problem, but at least Vlasic (when he plays) will move to the right touchline to try and create some width.

David McMullen
33 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:29:01
I think it's a good bet, if Moshiri orders a taxi for Koeman, that Unsworth will be in charge till the end of the season. He will shake up the team and instill some energy and passion and probably drop a few non-performers. Might just save our season.
Charles Barrow
34 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:36:14
Great article. I was there yesterday and was simply dumbfounded by the way they lined up.

Most of the time, the Brighton defence had no striker to mark as there were 5 midfielders passing it sideways to each other (or losing it in the process) with a massive, massive area of the pitch (the last third) with no Everton player to be seen. Not just bad tactics but weird!

When Calvert Lewin appeared in his rightful place after half time (but only for 10 minutes!) things happened.

Really a dismal performance. Brighton showed us too much respect and were very cagey in the first half. In the second, they realised we were shite and should have won.

Craig Walker
35 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:42:50
I'd take Benitez at Everton and I think he'd jump at the chance to be our manager. I want a manager who knows what it's like to win things and has managed some of the best clubs.

I hated Benitez after his small club jibe but time has moved on since and there is not loyalty in football anyway so why not get an ex-RS manager?

Yesterday was the first time in my 43 years of supporting the Blues that I spent the day not following the game. After the Burnley defeat I told the missus "I was done". I managed until 70 mins and then tuned into the commentary.

There's an air of inevitability about the team and club at the minute which is reminiscent of Walter Smith's final games.

Oliver Brunel
36 Posted 16/10/2017 at 13:52:28
I was not drinking yesterday, I was not unduly tired. I hadn't taken any soporific substances or tablets. I fell asleep watching the game.

My son prodded me and said we had a corner. It came to nothing, I saw Baines put his foot on the ball, pass it back to Jagielka who passed it sideways to Gueye who lost the ball.

I fell back to sleep. I was planning to go to Lyon away but have changed my mind.

Tony Marsh
37 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:00:28
Ray @ 12

Sometimes, mate, you have to lose a battle to win a war. To be honest mate my concern at the moment isn't for 3000 travelling fans it's much more important.

The death of our club, relegation, shame on the name Everton, ridicule in the media, shite embarrassing football, £6 million a year salary for a Dopey Dutch Moyes... All this and more concern me more than upsetting travelling fans.

At times in life we have to make sacrifices to move forwards. If losing another game or two removes Koeman and installs Unsworth, then so be it. Sorry if that offends you?

Sam Hoare
38 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:12:47
It just seemed like there was no-one running past their defensive line. Ever. That's one way in which we really miss Coleman.

Play two of Lookman, Vlasic and Mirallas behind Calvert-Lewin and tell them to make runs behind their defense for the likes of Sigurdsson or Rooney (whichever No 10 we play) to find.

I look forward to seeing this team under Unsworth or whoever the new manager is by the end of the season.

Pickford
Coleman Holgate Keane Kenny?(new LB)
Davies Schneiderlin (playing well again hopefully)
Bolasie Vlasic Lookman
Calvert-Lewin

Bench: Sigurdsson, Rooney, Niasse, Jagielka, Gueye, Klaassen

Paul Holmes
39 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:15:04
AC Milan did the same as Everton in the transfer window and spent 200 million on new players in a bid to get back on track. Currently they are mid-table in the Italian league. Maybe it does take a little time for all the new players to settle in and performances to improve.

Everton and AC Milan have both been poor so far after expectations at the start of the season were high due to spending a lot of money. It's something to look at when looking for answers to what is going wrong at Everton.

Si Cooper
40 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:25:47
I don't think there is now any hiding place for Koeman after the scrutiny given to the way we are playing on MotD2.

Whilst it was embarrassing, at the same time it laid out for all to see the current problems in the teams performance. Not even our hierarchy could justify that.

Charles Brewer
41 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:30:41
Tony Marsh (#37). You are completely wrong, sir! This man isn't a Dutch Moyes. Moyes, for all his faults (which were reasonably many), knew how to construct a defence, knew how to get the team fit, knew how to get the team motivated and instilled a back-to-the-wall mentality. He also had very little money.

This man is an incompetent goon who hasn't got the faintest idea about how to run a football team, how to motivate a group of (fairly) young men, or get football supporters on his side.

Last night, I watched MoTD2 and saw the Manchester City demolition of Stoke. City It was wonderful to watch, there was skill, team play, masses of off the ball movement, defence destroying passes, excellent skills both on and off the ball. I also watched the crap served up by Everton, and within a minute or so was looking at Facebook.

This team and the way it plays are utter garbage. There is not one player (perhaps the goalkeeper, who doesn't really count) who would, on merit, make it into the Crystal Palace team that beat Chelsea.

Koeman really is, by a very long way, the worst manager I have ever seen at a Premier League club. If he was just useless, it would be one thing, the fact is he is destructive, arrogant, profligate and has bought a couple of the worst players ever to play in Everton blue shirts- Klaassen and Sigurdsson. At least Schneiderlin was okay for a while last year, but those two cost the thick end of £75million and have contributed nothing, absolutely nothing to the team.

I cannot believe that, if Koeman was sacked without compensation for gross incompetence, he would win an unfair dismissal or contract related piece of litigation.

Jim Wilson
42 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:45:16
Tony Marsh – The death of our club, relegation, shame on the name Everton, ridicule in the media, shite embarrassing football, £6 million a year salary for a Dopey Dutch Moyes.

Spot on! It seems to take a while for some fans to wake up to the stark realities that go on at our once great club and I for one am thankful for your 'to the point' and truthful analysis.

I used to worry about winning a derby game, then it was getting beat heavily. Now it's being resigned to being hammered by the Red Shite. That is the fucking reality of the moronic management we have had over the last 20 years. Moyes was clueless on how to get a win at Anfield, fucking clueless (this is just one example of his legacy); Martinez continued this embarrassment and now we have amazingly picked a manager who is worse than those two.

None of them know a simple thing of how to replace Coleman when he is injured. It's that pathetic. At least Moyes kept a settled team most of the time.

Koeman thinks he can sign a load of new players, keep making changes to the team, including continual changes to the formation and everything will be okay. The thick prat has no idea that this is the reason for the disjointed play, lack of cohesion and understanding, lack of confidence and why players are hiding and looking like statues.

And our chairman seems to be happy to keep him and happy that Koeman wants to sell or not play our great home grown talent. Our chairman can't get anything right, he really can't. If he eventually sacks Koeman who will he bring in then. We are stuck in a nightmare!

Sean Patton
43 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:51:23
Charles

When he first arrived, I thought he was a Dutch Moyes... then he turned into a Dutch Smith... and, at the current rate of regression, he will soon be a Dutch Mike Walker!

Martin Mason
44 Posted 16/10/2017 at 14:57:36
Jim,

You are completely wrong about it taking a long time for "some" fans to wake up to what is going on at the club. We're all perfectly capable of seeing what is going on some can even see what isn't going on.

The difference is that while some started screaming and throwing dummies out of prams at the first sign of structural as against temporary problems, some of us watched how things were developing while raising constructive rather than swivel-eyed comments. We are having and will have our say in the end.

The concept that some fans are set apart and saw what was happening before the hoi polloi did is laughable.

Philip Bunting
45 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:10:10
If he would play players in their correct positions and admit he signed too many Number 10s he might, just might move forward. If he played the following team and dropped the non-performers, I believe things could change for the better.

Pickford
Holgate, Keane, Jagielka, Baines
Lookman, Davies, Sigurdsson, Vlasic
Calvert-Lewin, Rooney.

Kim Vivian
46 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:12:39
Charles "...a couple of the worst players ever to play in Everton blue shirts- Klaassen and Siggurdsson."

At the time I wasn't remotely impressed with the amount of time and energy, not to say £20 - £25m too much money, that was being invested in the Sigurdsson pursuit effort which should have been used for a striker acquisition. I would have not minded one bit if he had gone elsewhere (just who were we fighting with, tell me), but "one of the worst players ever to play in an Everton shirt" is a bit extreme I'd say.

Klaassen we haven't seen enough of but likewise, certainly as far as his fee is concerned.

Aside from that I pretty much have to agree with everything else you said, Charles, and was thinking the same about Man City.

Fact of the matter is I just don't like this team very much barring the obvious fact they are Everton. Koeman has made the whole set up devoid of personality and even a controversial character a Pogba, Barton, Balotelli would at least make it interesting. Watching Everton these days is like ploughing through a weak plotted book which never gets going until the last chapter.

Steve Bell
47 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:15:24
Philip (#45) Baines is surely a "current non-performer" as is Sigurdsson... I also think Gana would improve if played with Davies.
Peter Salisbury
48 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:21:09
Phillip (#45), I agree that Calvert-Lewin needs someone up with him but won't Rooney just drop back and inhibit Siggy's space to play in?

Sandro up there, or Mirallas on opposite wing to Lookman with the useful prospect Vlasic up front with Calvert-Lewin? Width and some pace up front, or too many lightweights who can't keep the ball?

Raymond Fox
49 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:24:46
Rick and Sam mention the lack of movement of our players to make themselves available to pass to.

I supported Martinez through thick and thin but the same problem was apparent in his last two seasons as manager. It beats me why not, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to find space surely, at least try, its one of the basics of playing the game. The players need to buck their ideas up.

One shining light of our new signings has been Vlasic – the lad looks a bargain.

Kevin Tully
50 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:26:52
This will only end one of two ways.

We get beat Thursday, lose to Arsenal on Sunday, then the fanbase goes into full meltdown and demands his sacking. This will be achieved by protests outside the ground, planes flying over Goodison, and every media outlet will be besieged by Blues with steam coming out of their ears. The club will then have no choice but to get rid.

Or, and I'm not holding out any hope for this scenario, the board have already made their decision, and have a replacement lined up. They are currently in negotiations with a suitable replacement, and they are waiting until Friday to pull the trigger, whatever the result against Lyon.

There is no chance of the third option playing out, in which Koeman turns things around, and suddenly has this team playing to an acceptable level. It's well past the point of no return, I'm afraid. The majority of fans have made their minds up.

Jim Wilson
51 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:36:06
Martin Mason – All you're doing is twisting my words. Which really is laughable and helping no-one.

The big picture is that the management of Everton has been pathetic for 20 years. That is why we have won nothing, why we can't win at certain grounds even though 'little' clubs like Burnley can, why we have regular embarrassing performances and defeats and why good home grown players don't make the grade or leave far too early, why the majority of the time the football played is dross, amongst other things.

Ray Robinson
52 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:43:16
Tony (#37). I know where you're coming from and don't think it didn't cross my mind yesterday that another defeat would hasten the departure of Koeman, but I simply cannot ever bring myself to wish a defeat on the Blues.

No offence taken – I just can't think that way, however much I want change.

Philip Bunting
53 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:45:53
Steve, I sort of agree. With Baines, we really don't have any option to put his position in the team under pressure. In Siggy, there is obviously a player there that needs played in his regular position.

I would prefer to see Barkley aside Davies but I think that boat has sailed unless he has a massive change of heart. I cannot see that happening unless Koeman goes.

Martin Mason
54 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:47:09
Jim, what you say adds nothing; it is a statement of the obvious. The difficult thing is not screaming, it is understanding why and what is to be done. I will add that not winning silverware doesn't mean poor management – most teams don't win silverware and few are mismanaged.

The concept that Everton have only been bad in the last 20 years is a rewriting of history. We have been in managed and under-financed decline since 1970.

Stan Schofield
55 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:48:37
Ray @52: Like you, I've never actively wanted us to lose. However, I'm finding myself not being too fussed if we do lose at the moment. Particularly if it speeds up the departure of Koeman.
Peter Cummings
56 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:49:52
The one question that needs to be asked regarding Koeman's 'future' at Goodison is: How come every other Everton team continues to win trophies and titles under their various coaches and managers while he continues to turn his charges into an embarrassment and liability while at the same time alienating the best fans in the game???

Even to those who may be on crack, coke, or any narcotic, can see where the answer lies: At the top – and that includes Kenwright, Moshiri, Walsh, and those who continue to turn the club into a laughing stock.

Need any more be said???

Nicholas Ryan
57 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:52:28
The problem is not so much that we are playing badly, but that there seems to be no visible prospect of improvement.
Eddie Dunn
58 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:57:14
Christmas can't come soon enough.

Ron gets the sack.
Ross signs a new contract.
Coleman & Bolasie near return.
Jim Wilson
59 Posted 16/10/2017 at 15:58:14
Martin – you are at it again – twisting my words. I said the management of Everton has been shite for the last 20 years. That is as far back as I decided to go. Okay!

My statement might be obvious to you now. No argument. What's to be done? Sack the manager.

Under finance is nothing to do with not being able to win at Anfield. Ask all the small clubs that have managed it. The fact that the only time we won at Old Trafford was when mastermind was in charge sums it up.

Give us a break and argue your trivia with someone else.

John Pierce
60 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:04:45
Whether people care to admit it or not, we all go through a myriad of thoughts too. Events on the pitch when said out loud compromise our support for the team.

When Brighton scored, I was simultaneously "Oh fuck, not very surprised"... then really scared in the same moment – "We might get relegated!!!"

And when we scored the penalty, I was like "Yeah okay, but oh it might mean he won't get sacked" to anger at the whole damn thing.

These are moments, gut reactions not things to cling too but do tell us what we really feel before crashing back into reality. Inevitably, we try and reason those reactions away.

Remember, folks, the the problem is Koeman, with the dithering board not far behind, not the fans who think impure thoughts!

Ray Robinson
61 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:04:55
Stan (#55) being less fussed about a defeat and actually willing one are two entirely different things as I know you know.

In 56 years of supporting the Blues, I have been through times where I have recovered from a defeat at the drop of a hat and others where it has taken me all week (in some cases years / never!).

I always want them to win though!

Martin Mason
62 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:11:46
Jim @50, apologies but no twisting of words, I only responded to what you said.

"Sack the manager" is always the answer but it is only one solution of many and one that rarely works.

We screamed for Moyes to be sacked, we screamed for Martinez to be sacked and now we scream for Koeman to be sacked.

Kim Vivian
63 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:18:12
Kevin (#50) – I think if your 3rd scenario played out (and who knows – acceptable was even to become superlative), the fan base (certainly this one) would be mightily relieved and get right behind the resurgent Everton.

The uncertainty of change is going to weigh on our minds for the rest of this season and the only way we are going to achieve something will be your option 3 – however unlikely it is that it will happen.

My view is that I'm afraid this season is pretty much a write off already, so whatever happens, it needs to happen quickly. I cannot believe there are not urgent meetings and discussions going on behind the scenes as we all put our views out front. If the right man was to be found willing and available, I believe all perceived sentiment will be out the window and Koeman would be shown short shrift.

David Barks
64 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:21:45
Sacking Koeman will do nothing to solve the main issue, which is the ownership of Everton Football Club. In fact, it will only buy them more excuses, with claims that the new manager will need time to build his own squad.

The same issues will persist. Those running the club have no interest in actually competing to win anything. It just doesn't matter. It's an ownership problem.

Sacking Koeman would be like sacking the middle management because of horrible decisions by the CEO. It's good for a press release but will do nothing to address the core issues.

Lawrence Green
65 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:22:37
Martin (#62),

What else are the fans supposed to ask for when things are not working on the pitch? The manager is responsible for coaching the players, selecting the players and asking his players to follow his instructions. When it becomes obvious to all and sundry that the team are not performing to an acceptable level and aren't achieving the results that they are capable of, then the buck stops with the manager.

There may well be mitigating circumstances, lack of funds, injuries etc – but when there are very few reasons for the team to be performing at such a low level, we as supporters want the manager to find solutions. Ronald doesn't seem to recognise the team has a problem and therefore he won't seek out a solution. I think, like so many other supporters, that he is the problem and that's why he should be replaced.

Martin Mason
66 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:29:20
Lawrence, what did forcing Moyes and Martinez out do? We're far worse now than the Moyes days surely.

The manager is only one of a large team of people who influence the club and he is way down the pecking order. I'm not sure that they're as important as people make out anyway.

Our problem is that from the top down we aren't making things happen, poor tactics is one thing but, when that is allied to very poor purchasing, then that is trouble and it wasn't the manager that did the purchasing.

I want the board to sort it out and if that means sacking Koeman then so be it. They know far more about the situation than we fans do. I trust they will sort it out. The buck stops at a higher level than Koeman and that is where sackings should take place.

Stan Schofield
67 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:34:01
Kim @63: I believe that the season is far from a write-off provided Koeman goes sooner rather than later. We have a very good squad of players, capable of competing for honours. We just need them to be well managed. Like the Under-23s are.
Lyndon Lloyd
68 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:37:41
Martin (62), we – and by "we" I'm referring to the point when the majority feel the same way – scream for managers to be sacked when it has become patently obvious that there is no future under the current incumbent.

I'd say in the cases of Mike Walker (he simply didn't get the club and results were atrocious – sound familiar?) and Walter Smith, it worked because we avoided relegation and won the FA Cup in the first instance and brought in a decade of stability in the second.

But there came a point under Moyes that we all knew he'd taken us as far as he could and it was clear to everyone that Martinez needed to go and for many of us it should have happened after the Anfield debacle. I remain convinced we'd have won the FA Cup if they'd sacked him before the semi-final.

We're going nowhere under Koeman. Even if results were to slowly improve, I'm not convinced he has what it takes to resolve the next crisis of form when it comes along. It never felt like he would be with us beyond his 3-year term anyway so there seems little sense in dragging out what looks to be a dead-end tenure.

Brian Harrison
69 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:50:41
Lyndon,

We did not win the FA Cup under Walter Smith.

Stan (#67) we have a good squad of players? There isn't one player at Everton who would get near any of the clubs that finished above us last season. The fact that none of them came in for any of the players we bought underlines this.

We have at best a group of journeymen players who if they played to their very best might get 6th but, on a normal season, they would finish were they did last season.

Steve Bell
70 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:51:44
Smith, Moyes, Martinez, Koeman – The one constant? Kenwright. His main achievement is excellent work in the community and related charities, but even these only mask the on-pitch mediocrity, even when we do spend money.

He has to go. In fact, why is he still here, years after he promised to step down?

John Pierce
71 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:52:48
David, you are, in the wider context, correct I feel, the board are not professional nor ambitious enough to be ruthless to move the club forward. However, sacking Koeman at any stage now will ‘lance the boil' so to speak, give some relief to what has become a chronic issue.

What is irresponsible in my eyes is letting the matter fester. Pride and a certain arrogance that is letting this great club wither on the vine is contemptible.

Moshiri needs to demonstrate he can be an owner who sits in the shadows and employs the proper people to run a modern, forward-thinking club. He has to date shown that he is improving the clubs commercial revenue streams, slowly but it is getting better.

He has yet to show any real football savvy.He has little or no football acumen and actually he should have done everything to secure a high profile, well respected Director of Football. We got Walsh?!

This person is the one who in the right structure pushes the manager, sets the targets and ultimately sacks them. That is the level of detachment and devolved thinking required to set the club forward.

Hand in hand with this a clear mechanism to handle communications in the club. A position we've yet to fill and it really makes the club look small time. Either to embellish the success we have or to handle times of adversity this appointment is critical.

The list goes on and it is ultimately very important, but what is urgent is the manager is removed post haste and the reset button is pressed.

Michael Lynch
72 Posted 16/10/2017 at 16:57:15
I don't really think sacking Koeman is such a massive decision for the board. He's one cog in the wheel – an important cog, but to get it into perspective, it would cost us less to pay up his contract than we spent on Niasse, or Lookman for that matter.

The players look fed up, the fans are definitely fed up, let's move on. If there's nobody decent available, put Unsy in charge in the short term.

I don't have a problem with us going through a manager every season or two in pursuit of the one that can actually take us forward. We're too soft with managers. Times have changed.

Thank Koeman for his efforts, pay up his contract, and move on.

Lawrence Green
73 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:07:10
Martin, thanks for your prompt reply. Are you seriously saying that it is the board's fault that we are witnessing so many poor performances by so many players? Does that mean they should 'sack' themselves or do you blame Walsh for all of the team's ills out on the pitch?

David Moyes was not sacked he chose to leave a contract unsigned and sought a bigger job with a bigger club, but he was incapable of achieving much on the larger stage. Martinez also left to join a bigger club when he departed Wigan for Everton, he too was found wanting and the board had little alternative than to remove him from his post.

As for Koeman, we don't know what the board will do in the near future but it is pretty clear that it will take a fairly miraculous change in fortunes, both in performances and results, for him to remain the Everton manager at the end of this year if not the end of this month.

Had Koeman joined us this summer and we were struggling like we are now, I would advocate patience – but he is very nearly half-way through his contract and there has been little to suggest that he will move us forward from the Martinez era – and he's managed to do that by his team playing some of the most dismal, boring football that many of us have had the misfortune to watch.


Jim Bailey
74 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:08:12
Martin @66,

If I've read your post right,re your last sentence, do you mean that either Moshiri, or Kenwright, or both, should sack themselves?

Martin Mason
75 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:13:48
Only one manager change since we won the league nearly 50 years ago actually worked and that was Kendall 1. Bingham, Lee, Burtenshaw, Royle, Harvey, Gabriel, Smith, Watson, Royle, Moyes, Martinez, Kendall 2 and 3.

Kendall 1 should have been fired and the more I look at that spell it looks more and more like an act of God, a super Leicester given that we were penniless and mismanaged. That's 14 changes and one success.

Is changing a manager the silver bullet? Don't get me wrong, I don't like Koeman one little bit.

Lyndon Lloyd
76 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:20:13
Brian (#69): "We did not win the FA Cup under Walter Smith."

I know. I was referring to sacking Walker and bringing in Joe Royle as instance No 1 which did lead to the FA Cup and safety from the drop.

Instance No 2 was sacking Smith and appointing Moyes which was unquestionably successful in the context of what he was brought in to do.

Jay Wood
77 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:21:13
I do not and could not subscribe to a line of thought on TW by some expressing a desire to see Everton lose game after game if it accelerates the departure of Koeman.

Even a couple of seasons ago, when we played Man City who were going toe to toe for the title with the Pinkies, I could not join a considerable throng who expressed at best ambiguity, at worst an explicit desire, that we lost to City to torpedo the Pinkies title challenge.

As Ray Robinson above writes: "being less fussed about a defeat and actually willing one are two entirely different things."

I understand the (possible) reasoning behind such defeatist thinking, to accelerate the dismissal of the manager who is potentially jeopardizing the club's short and long term future.

Things on the playing field are pretty bad at the moment, but inexorably so? Not for me just yet.

That said, football at this level is a results-driven game. And Koeman ain't getting the results, nor the performances. The longer we go winless, the greater the discontent and the greater the pressure grows to GET those wins.

Here in Brazil, Palmeiras – the club Gabriel Jesus helped win their first title in 20+ years last year before before joining Man City in January - last week dismissed the manager who achieved that success.

That manager – Cuca – actually stepped down after winning the title in December, but was recalled in May to salvage the reigning champions' season after his replacement oversaw a disastrous early campaign.

He lifted them from the lower reaches of the table to top 5. In the first game played without him yesterday, the team lined up the same with the same players. They won away 3-1 and as a result climbed to 3rd in the table.

It's an unforgiving role being a professional football manager.

Alan McGuffog
78 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:24:47
After one third of this season there is, now, only one priority. Survival in the Premier League.

I have long been sceptical of our chances of moving to Bramley-Moore for a number of reasons (the main one being a certain Bill Kenwright).

Rest assured if we drop down to the Championship we can all hang on to our seats at Goodison. We won't be going anywhere, save possibly Gillmoss.

Kim Vivian
79 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:27:32
Stan (#67), I agree we have the core of a good squad with the players we've got but with the glaring and well documented exclusions. I do, however, keep rewatching that Brighton goal and wonder if Schneiderlin is seriously part of that core.

My problem is that anyone coming in is not going to be able to remould the team instantaneously. There will be that integration process and introduction of new ideas, and of course, the missing parts to find.

I would love as it stands to see a change by the weekend and perhaps Unsworth in the caretaker role get us past Chelsea leaving the Carabao Cup an option, but other than that we probably have to pin our hopes on the FA Cup.

I think Unsy is the only man to make a quick impact but am slightly unsure if he would be the right guy for the long haul. He is lacking in top flight experience but does have a strength of personality to take it on, and is certainly more of a leader of men than Koeman.

A part of me still hopes Koeman could turn it around but the next two games is all he has to show it in my opinion. Bullets will then need to be bitten.

Lawrence Green
80 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:33:08
Catterick April 1961 to April 1973 - Retired due to ill health.
Bingham August 1973 to January 1977 - Sacked
Lee February 1977 to May 1981 - Sacked
Kendall (1) May 1981 to May 1987 - Left to join Bilbao
Harvey August 1987 to October 1990 - Sacked
Kendall (2) November 1990 to December 1993 - Resigned
Walker January 1994 to November 1994 - Sacked
Royle November 1994 to March 1997 - Sacked or resigned ?
Kendall (3) June 1997 to May 1998 - Sacked
Smith August 1998 to March 2002 - Sacked
Moyes March 2002 to May 2013 - Left to join United
Marinez August 2013 to May 2016 - Sacked
Koeman June 2016 - ??

Of course there were temporary bosses in charge such as Unsworth and Gabriel at certain junctures but surely we can't count them in the overall Everton managerial picture.

That makes a Baker's Dozen of Everton managers in almost 60 years or 11 different men who have held the position as full time manager.

Anthony Newell
81 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:34:43
Ray #(61) I don't suppose those never to recover from defeats where the two FA Cup Finals in late eighties? Still hurts when I see those when they inevitably get wheeled out.

@Dave (#64) I'd say the core issues are on the pitch so lets focus on them, priority is to avoid relegation and were floundering. Yes, something is rotten but what are you suggesting, Moshiri is sacked? After all, he hand picked Koeman. I'd like for nothing better than a root-and-branch clear-out.

In the interests of fairness, can we book in the Paddy Power Grim Reaper for Sunday with optional cancellation Friday?

Martin Mason
82 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:42:35
Lawrence, sorry, I don't want to piss on the parade of the many passionate people who want this arsehole of a bloke gone. There is also a possibility of us being in a relegation fight at the end of the season so it may be now that sacking this fraud is an existential necessity.

I was just trying to point out that sacking managers is popular but rarely does the business.

Martin Mason
83 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:54:05
Sorry, I'm completely sold now that the next manager has to be Unsy and I hope he gets the job.

The reason is that getting a completely new guy on board we have to give them 2 years, lots of transfer money and still be taking a massive risk.

Unsy will slot straight in and he knows the ability of all of the players at the club; not many managers promoted from within make it in the modern era but, if anybody can do it, he can.

Tony Marsh
84 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:57:52
The massively rotten-to-the-core football club we support is plummeting to new depths. We all know Bill Kenwright is a snake-oil salesman but Moshiri really concerns me.

The lack of movement on the stadium,the selling of Lukaku,the nonsensical backing of Koeman, the love-ins with Jim White, the resignation of losing games to certain teams. It is all a load of bollocks.

Now we have Moshiri's manager Koeman telling the world how proud he is we fluked a draw at Brighton. You couldn't make this shite up.

Neither Moshiri or Koeman understand what EFC and it's supporters are all about. Kenwright does but Bill doesn't give a fuck as long as he stays in charge. Whole thing stinks. By the way, stadium news on the Echo web site today... Absolutely hilarious.

Andy Meighan
85 Posted 16/10/2017 at 17:58:15
Nearly £100 million spent on three players alone in Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin and Klaassen... Does anyone honestly think a new manager will get any more out of them than what we're already seeing? What a criminal waste of the club's money.

You can give Moyes all the grief in the world but he didn't have a fraction of this prick's budget and he was hung out to dry in 2½ transfer windows But were we better than what we are now? You bet we were. This can only end in tears – not for Koeman but for us

As Tony Marsh said, we are danger of going down – that's how serious it is. 5 sorry goals in 8 games tells it's own story.

Oh, and Charles Brewer – spot on. I couldn't agree more about the two players you mentioned.

Mike Gaynes
86 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:02:48
I'm struck by the unanimity here in condemning Koeman... and by how few seem to have any outrage for the players.

I haven't seen much of this team over the past six weeks (thank God!), but what I've seen in the last two games is a bunch of players doing their jobs very poorly. You can blame Koeman for putting the wrong guys in the wrong system, but you can't blame him for their inability to execute fundamentals.

It wasn't Koeman who bottled a crucial challenge in the area (again!), costing us a goal (again!)... it was Schneiderlin.

It isn't Koeman who keeps losing his mark (Keane) or giving the ball away in midfield (Gana), and Koeman isn't the celebrated free-kick specialist who couldn't get one even close to the frame in the final minutes yesterday.

Koeman is the one who keeps playing Gana and Schneids and the 4-2-3-1 when it's not working, and keeps Rooney up front when he's not a scoring threat. And Koeman is the one who is keeping Davies parked on the bench and Lookman parked in the stands. He takes the blame for all that. But he shouldn't be taking the blame for everything.

I'm one of the few here who believes that it's too early for panic stations and phrases like "destroying the club"... I've always laughed at clubs who freak out and change managers in October. And I think the comment above (I won't call out the poster) who thinks Koeman is deliberately tanking in order to get sacked is Looney Tunes material. But yes, if this continues I'd be interested in seeing who's available. Kev Tully's (#27) link to the Fonseca article is worth reading.

And a word about the calls for Unsworth: no. Well, two words: hell no. This is a job that requires senior experience. It's not for a youth coach whose qualifications are U-23 success and having worn a Blue shirt. I love Rhino, but no.

James Marshall
87 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:05:15
Mike, I'm one of the few that agrees with you – Koeman is to blame for certain things, but I think along the same lines as you when it comes to players simply not doing their jobs.

They should also take some of the stick. It's all too easy to blame managers for quite literally everything when things go badly.

Stan Schofield
88 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:05:38
Brian @69: Whatever the quality of the players relative to those in the 'top-6', I think it's clear that they've been badly managed, both in terms of tactics and putting players out of position, and in terms of man-management.

Without making any predictions of where we could finish, one thing is clear: We'll finish as high as we possibly can, given the quality of players, only if they're managed well. A good manager makes best use of what he has, and what we need is a good manager.

Kevin Tully
89 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:09:01
I've got a sinking feeling the board won't act at all. All because Koeman could go running to the press telling anyone who will listen how those above him royally fucked up this summer. I don't think Koeman will be shy when it comes to protecting his own reputation.

That may well save him from the bullet, unless Bill manages to make him sign one of his famous NDAs.

Lawrence Green
90 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:15:22
Tony (#84),

The last update I can see about the stadium on the Echo's website is from last Monday 9th October – just a fluff piece that says that talks are ongoing, blah blah. Is it possible that I have missed the article which you might be referring to?

Stan Schofield
91 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:15:48
Mike @86: I believe it's 100% down to Koeman. When the manager gets the tactics wrong, and puts players in the wrong positions, and when his leadership of men is shite, and he does all of this consistently, even players with the best will in the world will struggle.

In this situation, players get to a position where they don't want to play, the desire goes. When they do play, they don't want the ball, for fear of making mistakes. They then make more mistakes, and it's a vicious circle.

The only way out of this is through good management.

Lev Vellene
92 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:21:16
Mike G (#86),

I've been very patient, and I thought Koeman was a very good choice for our manager back then! But please remember that the games this season is not what he is solely being judged for. Koeman has been here for one whole season before this one. And we have won no more games away from home than you can count on one hand in all that time?

I understand that a team will need to "gel", but Koeman can't seem to play any kind of formation together for long enough to even attempt for that to happen! And everyone from fans through pundits & newspapers have seen that two defensive midfielders vs anyone are killing our games!

So everyone knows how to counter us by now! Like Brighton and Burnley, they'll all hope the changes come so late that it'll just be a desperate burst that they can hope to contain since Everton have no recognized strikers of repute!

Lawrence Green
93 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:21:24
Kevin (#89), There's probably more than a grain of truth in what you say and it was likely a reason that David Moyes kept his position for quite a lot longer than he ought to have.

We should all as blues realise that winning trophies is in our DNA according to Roberto at least, and explanations for failing to win them are in Everton's NDAs.

David Barks
94 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:24:23
Why would the Board sack him? They clearly had zero expectation of competing for the Premier League, or even the Champions League.

As long as they don't believe that relegation is a real threat, he will continue.

Colin Glassar
95 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:32:55
Sorry, Mike, but you're wrong. It's the manager's decisions which are killing us. If you have a useless boss, it will affect your own performance eventually.

I don't know if he's lost the changing room but the players look nervous, clueless and gutless.

Trevor Peers
96 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:34:53
Darren's dastardly devilish plan of sacking Koeman and the Blues re-signing Barkley before Christmas now seems within touching distance. Who would've believed it at the start of the season?

If it does happen and Unsworth is made temporary manager, all Evertonians will sleep easier in their beds; the nightmare of Koeman's diabolical tactics will have disappeared for ever.

Tony Abrahams
97 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:37:34
Mike @86, I hope you're okay mate? And I'm definitely in the loony tune camp, because I just can't believe a man with as much experience as Koeman could serve up what is on offer at the minute without trying to go back to basics to get us going again.

I said at half-time yesterday, that it was obvious Ronald is not really looking at the opposition,and maybe this is because he's hell-bent on getting this crazy system to work?

But it's obvious the system is crazy, simply because he keeps trying to play players out of position to try and make it work, but if anything it's just getting much worse.

It's getting worse because we are continuing to play an alien system, that compliments nobody, but consistently baffles everyone?

Mike Gaynes
98 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:39:14
Stan (#91), sorry but I strongly disagree. These aren't little kids. Top professionals should be self-motivating, whether or not they agree with their positioning or the tactics. They should be able to fulfill the responsibilities assigned to them and execute the fundamentals they learned as children.

I have spent too much of my life closely involved with professional athletes to respect the excuses of those who blame their poor play on being "demoralized" by a coach or manager.

And I have no patience for the idea that Koeman needs to accept responsibility for his poor performance but the players don't. Everybody in the club should be looking in the mirror now, not just blaming Koeman.

And even without knowing them, I'd predict that our two veterans who've played through three managerial eras, Baines and Jagielka, would agree wholeheartedly with this point of view.

Ray Robinson
99 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:39:32
I think Lyndon highlighted a point that is perhaps the best reason for getting rid of Koeman now and that is the fact that he only has a 3-year contract.

I believe he was brought on board as a big name, short-tem, profile-raising "fixer" (in the eyes of the Board) and that he only ever saw himself as a hired hand, much like an IT contractor, supply teacher etc. He clearly hasn't identified passionately with the club, and probably doesn't expect to be hang around when his contract expires (he was probably hoping for a "bigger" job to materialise).

There will be no hand-wringing, emotional departure when he goes. It will be the conclusion of a business transaction that failed. I think the business jargon is "to cut one's losses".

Jack Convery
100 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:46:15
The Samaritans should ban EFC. We'd all be a lot happier.
Tom Bowers
101 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:47:56
Apart from maybe Vlasic and Lookman (not being used), Everton do not have any player capable of moving forward and beating an opponent to create space or a chance to score. Calvert-Lewin is improving and Holgate is getting better when he moves up front. However, the rest seem to be playing every match like a friendly and it's time to ring in the changes.

Some are touting Mirallas but 5 minutes with fresh legs is not an endorsement for giving him a start and remember he wanted away at the start of the season. Davies should be recalled instead of Gana and Macca, if fit should replace Schneiderlin.

Vlassic and Calvert-Lewin should be given a run as the joint spearhead with Niasse and Lookman being used late on if needed. The defence played quite well until that craziness with 8 minutes left.

Rooney should play behind the front two and not alongside them. Koeman should quit now and let Dunc and Unsey take over till January. They can't do any worse than what Koeman is doing now.

Mike Gaynes
102 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:49:20
Tony (#97), Koeman's refusal to change tactics is down to pure-ass stubbornness in my view. He keeps trying to make his system work, you're right. Nothing I've ever seen from the man can make me believe he's deliberately sabotaging himself or the club. Makes zero sense.

I'm doing great, thanks. I missed all those games because I was traveling in China, not for medical reasons. No goddamn Premier League games on Hubei province television. I did get to see a lot of Chinese league games and saw some players we might find useful.

Andy Crooks
103 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:53:24
I have never used the phrase "anti-Everton", to describe Evertonians who want us to lose, even though I have been quoted as using it. It is a stance that I do not adhere to but, everyone has their view.

It is the self-righteous better Evertonian stuff that I do not get.

Fuck the 3,000 travelling Evertonians, let them pay good money to watch us lose because the club is rotten to the core and I am the only one who knows it. Desperate stuff.

Ray Robinson
104 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:55:40
Anthony (#81), yes of course the lost finals in the eighties are on that list but there are plenty of other obvious finals and cup semi finals too!

More recently, losing two goals in the last few minutes at Bournemouth away a few years ago when winning 3-1 still rankles with me!

Stan Schofield
105 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:58:59
Mike @98: In general I think you're right that players need to take responsibility as professionals. The manager takes a deeper responsibility, because his decisions are more likely to affect the whole team, but the players take a responsibility as well, generally speaking.

For example, I think it's wrong when players down tools, because they let the paying supporters down. But if they're not downing tools, and struggling with a system that doesn't really work, it's inevitable that their performances will suffer, no matter how much they get paid or how good a professional attitude they have.

I think this is true in every professional sphere, not just football. That's why the term 'toxic manager' was coined. Toxic managers are a nuisance, a pest, a pain in the arse, and need to be put to more useful tasks like clearing litter from the streets or cleaning toilets.

Tony Marsh
106 Posted 16/10/2017 at 18:59:40
Mike @86

I am going Loony, mate...plenty of us are. This current fiasco engulfing Everton FC is by far the worst. I have seen fans turn. Kids and grown men are crying into their cornflakes every morning Koeman is still here. It is driving fans insane.

The harsh fact is that Koeman has lost it; he knows he has lost it, and he just wants his money. Surely he can't truely expect to put out his teams the way he does and expect to win?

Every football-watching person on the planet can see where we are going wrong except one guy. That guy is in line for an enormous amount of money for fucking this club over.

I believe Koeman is sabotaging games to escape with his loot. There is no other sensible explanation as loony as it might sound. Oh, buying Klaassen had a touch of loony about it.

Ray Robinson
107 Posted 16/10/2017 at 19:00:59
Andy (#103), agreed, who knows what the bigger picture is anyway?

What would the future hold if those lost points, willed away in order to hasten Koeman's departure, were ever to lead to relegation? (Heaven forbid!)

Tony Abrahams
108 Posted 16/10/2017 at 19:08:48
Pure-ass stubbornness, equates to not being that bothered right now Mike. No width, no partnerships, no real fight, and no players trying to run in-behind the opposition, can only mean one thing to me.

A team lacking in every part of the game, are getting sent out each game, with no real plan, and this is obviously the main reason most of the crowd want him gone now.

Chinese football, Mike, what's it like? One thing I'm sure of though is that it will eventually catch on, simply because of how much energy these little fellas seem to have.

John Keating
109 Posted 16/10/2017 at 19:48:18
Mike I'm another Loony – honestly there's lots of us!

Nobody can keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Nobody with any sense can keep seeing players make basic mistakes week in and week out and not change them out. Nobody with any sense can continue doing what Koeman is doing... Well, maybe Martinez!

There is no excuse for professional players playing like 6-year-olds but it is Koeman's job to either educate them or bin them. At present he is doing nothing.

You're lucky having missed them for 6 weeks, unfortunately we haven't been so lucky. Possibly if you had witnessed every single game without exception you wouldn't be so "understanding"?

The buck stops with the manager he picks the team and dictates the tactics. Both are failing spectacularly.

Alan Smith
110 Posted 16/10/2017 at 19:57:05
Mike (#98),

Don't you think all this rot setting in is down to Baines and to some extent Jagielka? We're is their leadership? They are not winners, just nice guys, used to non-achieving.

I've been defending Baines's talent all season but, his attitude stinks of the mediocrity that has infected this club for to long now. Watch him in the build up to the Brighton goal. They attack down his wing and his position is on the six-yard line. He is in a pretty little line with the rest of the back 4. All in the security blanket position of doing nothing, but looking organised.

Now, is it really hard to read the game and predict that the Brighton winger may try and hit the byline? that he may attempt a pull back that will take 4 lazy defenders out the game. He had at least 5 seconds to see this unfold.

He doesn't see it. He reacts to it. So now let's look at his reaction. It's an amble over to the player he should have been marking in the first place, with his hands behind his back.... BEHIND HIS BACK FFS. No conviction, no determination and he's off balance. He's then given a chance to put foot in but can't because of this lazy going through the motions attitude and fun-boy antics.

As a professional, it's absolutely disgusting and sets a terrible tone. Imho, he should never play for Everton again. He's going through the motions. If Keane and Pickford are to be successful they need players around them who are setting good examples. Ruthless individuals with constant focus, determination and who are dirty every chance they get. And players who believe they are at Everton to win trophies.

I've seen Baines hit the ball out of play when we were three down in an FA Cup quarter-final against Wigan! Twice! And both times the Wigan players were feigning injury. But our fans directed their anger against the angry, aggressive, determined and pissed-off Fellaini??? Not nice guy Baines – or Moyes for picking a shithouse side.

Then away at Arsenal in another quarter-final he kicks it out when Areta feigns injury with us on the break.

Then there is all the shouts for Unsworth and Ferguson and part of me agrees. Real men, real Evertonians and one winner's medal at least. However, like me, they have seen Baines for the last five years do the seven-yard jockey with his hands behind his back under three different managers and have not said:

"What the fuck is that fun-boy shite, lad? Aren't you from Kirkby?"

I bet everyone is very pleasant to each other at the Everton gravy train, all very respectable. Unless Eto'o or Koeman or Lukaku actually demand more and said something hurtful to them. Then it's handbags or down tools.

I've watched Osman toe the party line in his fledging TV career:

"Fellaini was all elbows, and awkward"; "Moyes was quite right to go. No hard feelings" ... Mediocre shite.

If we accept Williams for Stones, if we accept no new massive contracts for Barkley and Lukaku the day Moshiri arrives, if we accept Baines with his nice-guy attitude – What are we as fans really hoping for? A miracle from Walsh? Hahaha. He's 50-odd and found two decent players... hahaha.

Sacking Koeman will not make any difference. We will be here again and again. It's a perpetual cycle of Best of the Rest, "plucky little Everton", with the odd fuck-up season. The players know this. The so-called "realistic" fans peddle this shit. While a lot fans lambast the good players who aren't willing to put up with this crap and end up wanting to leave.

Jagielka, Schneiderlin, and Williams all want to leave Everton to play for Chelsea, Man Utd and Spurs, as well you know. It's just that they are shite and have no chance. So why direct your abuse at the likes of Barkley, Lukaku and Stones who can actually do it?

Any way. That's me finished on this insane web. I'll go know before I'm banned again. I'll log back on in five years and read all the same arguments:

"Sell x player for £x million and buy 4 shite players."

"It takes time, we're going about it the right way."

"Sack the manager, get x manager from some foreign league none of us even know about."

"Give Baines and Ossie a go (they might be on easy life-coaching staff by then)."

But don't worry, all you Moshiri sycophants, we may still only be a top-half team in 5 years but Moshiri's and Kenwright's share values will have increased 20 to 40%.

These pricks voted in favour of the top 6 getting the lions share of the foreign TV rights, just so we could get a little bit more than the likes of Brighton and Hove Albion! Hardly a competitive move?

And there might be a spade in the ground. And Baines will be saying really nice things about people on the telly. Reid, Royle, Ratcliffe and Southall will all be too old to do anything about it. The last believers in this great club will be on their way out.

But keep chatting bubbles... "Anichebe's red boots."

Peter Fearon
111 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:21:52
It is precisely because we spent £140 million over the summer that we cannot simply fire Koeman when things don't go right from the outset. You don't spend that money and then refused to give the key figure in the equation adequate time.

The fact that he had a foreshortened pre-season; that he has to bed in 8 new players; that there are key players injured; that a striker still needs to be signed, those are not excuses but real problems facing Koeman that he has to solve.

A new manager would be looking to start back at square one with a new intake and similar development issues. Give Koeman enough time to get it right or to make it clear he cannot. Unless we were actually battling relegation at Xmas, which is very very unlikely, he should have until the end of the season to make this work.

The other day I made a harsh remark about the level of support on here which Michael made it clear he was not happy with, but while accepting he was right, I have to say that when the negativity and pessimism reaches the point of gleefully predicting thrashings before a ball has been kicked – as is the case – then it becomes cancerous and self-defeating.

Stan Schofield
112 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:23:08
Alan, yes, there seems to be a problem with our 'culture'. Koeman probably isn't the 'root cause' of the current malaise, but he still needs to be shown the door, because he's simply not making the best use of the players at his disposal.

If he's replaced by a better manager, it'll just be repairing an immediate problem, not tackling the root cause. But that's all that will happen at the moment, and it would take someone with really big bucks, like Usmanov, to come in and change the culture to one of winners like we've seen in the 60s and 80s.

The only way I've dealt with what seems to be an unacceptable culture is to vote with my feet. I don't go to anywhere near as many games as I used to, I just can't be bothered. I'm not paying to watch shite. I used to be a glutton for punishment, but not now.

I thought we really started something different when Moshiri determinedly recruited Koeman, but it seems I was wrong. As my dad said to me at the time, don't get too excited, Everton have a habit of raising you up then letting you down.

Oliver Brunel
113 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:33:19
Tony (#106) I agree with this. My scenario is that Koeman feels cheated by the board for selling his striker and not replacing and has now given up and is basically looking to pocket the dough. I also think it is not perhaps all of his doing.

The same players who downed tools under previous managers are doing it again. Those 'stalwarts' we think we all love. Those stalwarts who cant be arsed to give 100% to fans who travelled all the way to Italy.

If there's one common denominator in all the recent managerial turmoils, it is the attitude of a clique of players at the club.

John Keating
114 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:34:09
Peter, leaving it until Christmas may well be too late as there has been not a single thing so far that shows a change or improvement. If we can't beat Burnley and Brighton then there really is little hope.

Finally, may I say that you object to posters negativity and pessimism being gleefully predicted before a ball has been kicked – I don't agree that these observations are written gleefully by the way; however, can you say these posters have been proved wrong so far?

I would suggest that anyone who has been negative and pessimistic prior to kick off have been proven to be totally correct.

Barry Thompson
115 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:34:39
Tony A – "Chinese football Mike, what's it like"?

I've heard that it's great, Tony. Trouble is that you want to watch another one a couple of hours later.

Tony Hill
116 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:38:52
Oliver (#113), I agree with what you say, especially about the clique(s). Can't prove it, but I've long thought it.
Oliver Brunel
117 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:47:04
Leicester stadium looks half full. That's what Goodison will look like next season when noone renews season tickets!
Peter Fearon
118 Posted 16/10/2017 at 20:57:20
John Keating (#114),

I have already read on this site is recent days how we are going to be given a hiding by Lyon (who have won just four out of nine matches this season) and Arsenal (beaten by Watford at the weekend) and Chelsea (beaten by Crystal Palace) and how we will likely be relegated if Koeman is not sacked. Those are predictions that I do NOT believe will be proved right simply by dint of being, like you, an Evertonian.

The pessimism and negativity is insidious by its very nature and leads to all sorts of bad things. I so detested Walter Smith, I sometimes couldn't see the difference between watching him lose, which reinforced my beliefs, and watching us lose, which made me feel unhappy.

Phil Bellis
119 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:07:25
October; and I'm looking at the fixtures wondering how, if this shambles isn't sorted, we'll get another 32 points...

Maybe there's a silver lining but I can't see it for clouds... desperate times.

Mike Gaynes
120 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:07:59
Barry (#115), good 'un.

Tony (#108), it's actually quite fast, but not very physical... and it's two-level footy. By that I mean that all the quality I saw came from the Brazilian, African and Eastern European players on hand. Didn't see a single Chinese player that impressed me.

Alan (#110), I think your comments about Baines are complete and utter bollocks. Never seen a longer post with less to say.

Andy Crooks
121 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:17:56
Peter, I very much admire your posts and can see the merit in them. It was how I felt a while ago and how I could be persuaded to feel again. However, I just do not see any sign that things will get better.

Also, you mention Walter Smith. I know many may not see how it matters but to me Walter had an engagement with our club that Ronald does not. If we were good it would not matter, but I think we can be more forgiving of a man who is not so blatantly a hired hand.

Sometimes a little insincerity goes a long way.

Tony Abrahams
122 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:20:49
I don't reckon those Indians will want to watch Everton again in a hurry, though, Barry!
Keith Monaghan
123 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:24:29
Am I alone in getting sick of some of the anti-Koeman garbage trotted out by many on this site?

Bill Kenwright has been a good servant to EFC with good intentions, but his time is well gone – he should be first out of the door.

Our big deal of the summer, selling Lukaku cheaply to Man Utd and taking the Prodigal Son off their hands in part-exchange – he who couldn't leave us quick enough when 18, 13 years ago, after 1 season in the first team!

He who goes behind his wife's back when he's on a few days off and could have gone away with his family like a decent father!

He who's not good enough to be in a top-6 team – a big reason why he's come back to us, as our highest-paid player.

He who slows the game down to a snail's pace and whose first touch is shocking!

We didn't have to sell Rom. If we wanted to, we should have signed a replacement first; not doing so was symptomatic of the lovey-dovey stupid soft mentality running through this club for years...

I can't prove it, but believe Bill Kenwright is the root cause of this and needs to be shipped out so the club can toughen up and not be a push-over for the likes of them at the other end of the East Lancs Road, where our 2 best players of the last 5 years are now playing in the Champions League – where many on here despised Rom for wanting to play.

Neil Copeland
124 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:27:19
I am normally optimistic but, judging by the effort (if not quality) being shown by Leicester tonight, we will struggle to get a result there unless the change is made very soon. Like others, I think the Lyon game may well be the determining factor but, although I want shut of Koeman, I still want to see us win.

To me, the situation is beyond the results, they are almost immaterial when you consider the absolute shite being served up combined with totally clueless match preparation, tactics and team selection/set-up.

As for the players, I think they are actually trying but haven't any idea of what tactics they are supposed to be employing. Even worse is they seem to be scared to try something different – hardly surprising given the treatment handed out to Niasse, Barkley and seemingly now Lookman. I am very concerned that, if a change is not made before January, we will lose the likes of Lookman plus even Calvert-Lewin and Holgate.

However, I still like to think that Moshiri can see what is happening and working on a resolution -– we will see, I suppose.

Raymond Fox
126 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:31:06
On what we have seen so far, Koeman 'could not run a piss up in a brewery'. There's no point waiting till we have sunk further into the mire he should be dismissed asap.

What I will say though is he's not the only problem we have, and its the same each season for as long as I can remember.

The players we can afford and attract are a level down from the best teams in the League, all we have each year is misguided faith and hope that they can play above their natural ability. As soon as we produce a top player – they're off.

That's not to say that a better manager wont improve the players we have now and consequently the results, he will I've no doubt, but the underlining weakness will still exist.

Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd especially prove that the magic ingredient is a mountain of money.

Phil Bellis
127 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:32:14
Keith... no, but very obviously in a dwindling minority – the manager decides who plays, where and the "tactics"; totally agree though re the chairman.
Ian Riley
128 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:40:02
If Koeman can't turn this around, then the next manager must be experienced in relegation battles. That is what we will be in and a manager whom can sense cliques, players not pulling their weight and confidence rock bottom is required.

Koeman must know he is on borrowed time. We are struggling against teams expected to be fighting relegation. Looking at individuals with no Premier League managerial experience would be a big call. Although "Big Sam" or Moyes returning may be seen as a step down in choice for some on here. Sadly, survival is the call.

In four weeks time, all may be different. Everton may be in the top ten looking up after three wins. Big call but stranger things have happened. Sadly, my head tells me different.

Brian Murray
129 Posted 16/10/2017 at 21:57:57
Ian Riley (post 128). More chance of nice guy Jags saying we must improve fast. Oh, wait a minute...
Alan Smith
130 Posted 16/10/2017 at 22:11:23
Mike (#120),

Thanks, Mike, I will be up all night trying to digest your insightful comments. I hope Koeman reads your posts – there is lots learn from them.

And your right, Baines doesn't jockey with arms behind his back and isn't too nice. 40,000 are just imagining things every week! But at least you have given your expert opinion on the Chinese league.

I on the other hand couldn't have had Less to say? Demanding leadership and commitment from our senior players? It's the culmination of these small things that make big differences.

It's probably the most important decision Koeman has made since he took over. Dragging one of my favourite players off for that stinking attitude which has diseased Everton for years. I'd weed them all out. All the losers, all the nice guys.

But hey, forget all that – there is Chinese footy on... You must love friendly posts and mediocrity.

John Keating
131 Posted 16/10/2017 at 22:13:33
Peter, I think the pessimism and negativity has been well proven week after week. Just being positive doesn't mean we are going to win.

Remember it is Koeman and the team who are causing this negativity – not the supporters, they are only reacting to what is actually happening. No wonder people are already saying our next 2 games are on the cards for losing, based on the crap we've seen so far there's nothing to be positive about!

Losing can become a habit and I am sure pundits and supporters of many clubs have said they were to good to go down.

I class myself as a realist and realistically, in my opinion, the results of the next 2 games, unless Koeman goes completely against his stubbornness, do not fill me with optimism.

Jamie Sweet
132 Posted 16/10/2017 at 23:14:00
It always pisses me right off that these managers can come in, do a shit job, and then get sent home and expect to be "paid off" for being shit, and then be able to walk straight into another job. Where is the motivation there for not being shit?

Regardless of this, you know what you've got to do, Moshiri v stop pratting about and do it. Lucky we only gave him a 3-year contract or it could have been much more costly.

Dan Davies
133 Posted 16/10/2017 at 23:22:37
Has to be said, Baines and Jags are finished.

Add in Martina, an ageing Williams. Funes Mori injured... we're screwed.

Pickford is a good keeper but the defence is shite!

Two defensive midfielders. Schneiderlin. Why?

No striker. Why? Unbelievable.

WTF is going on? Shocking.

Jamie Crowley
134 Posted 16/10/2017 at 23:35:49
Christine Foster says,

"In many respects, the answer is simply, if the players you have at your disposal cannot succeed with the game plan, you change the plan."

Good managers don't have a system and then plug players into their preconceived notion of what that system is. Good managers look at the strengths of their players, and devise a system around those players and strengths.

Ronnie isn't doing that, and all the while we drop points and suffer vomit-inducing football. I'm over it. I want him out. He will never, ever survive October when we lose to Lyon, Arsenal, Chelsea, Leicester, and Lyon again in succession.

I can't see us winning a single one of the next five games.I hope I'm wrong.

Eddie Dunn
135 Posted 16/10/2017 at 00:01:59
There is much debate on here about the blame for our predicament being shared by the players as well as Koeman. I can recall talk between us all of how we would like a manager who had the power (like in the 70s) of putting players in their place, in the reserves for a year if they didn't do what they were told.

Like him or loath him, Ron seems to have rolled the years back and some individuals are out in the cold. I have no idea why first Niasse, and now Lookman have been kept away from the action, but Barkley has been eating cold tongue, as well as Mirallas.

I wonder if Koeman, has tried the "my way or the highway" approach and simply pissed-off a bunch of modern-day players, who are not used to this kind of management? They obviously get pampered more than their predecessors as well as rewarded more generously. The young guys like Holgate, Davies, Calvert-Lewin and Vlasic seem to have dealt with his style without a problem but the older guard may be disgruntled.

Barkley's situation has possibly upset many of them, and I guess (purely conjecture on my part) that some of the squad are as unhappy with his tactics/man-management as they were during the twilight month of Martinez's reign. Maybe old school just doesn't work anymore.

Oliver Molloy
136 Posted 16/10/2017 at 00:04:34
Lyndon,

I don't believe Moshiri holds our club any closer to his heart than Koeman. Both are here for the same reasons: money and attention. Koeman is Moshiri's man so he will be given every chance to turn things around .

A lot of shite is going on behind the scenes and there are just too many rumours of unrest between Kenwright and Koeman for some of these not to hold any substance:

Koeman didn't want Rooney; Kenwright did.
Kenwright assured Koeman that Giroud would be an Everton player.
Kenwright wants Barkley, Davies and Rooney to play together.

And of course there are conspiracy theories galore about Barkley not leaving on deadline day... the one I see legs in is that Kenwright did in fact call Barkley and pleaded with him not to sign for Chelsea.

I have said before that they don't speak like a chairman and manager should and it's Steve Walsh who talks to Kenwright and he of course will be looking after himself .

There is something rotten at Everton behind the scenes and now rumours emerging that Moshiri's and Kenwright's relationship has cooled somewhat and a power struggle is on the cards.

When a football team is not doing well, everybody – and I mean everybody –starts passing the buck (even the fans) and little rival camps start to grow and fester; in my opinion, this is what is going on at Everton at the moment.

For me, it looks like Koeman has 60% of the playing staff on board and the rest would like to see him go, so it's a struggle before a ball is kicked.

Koeman is Dutch and they are renowned for being matter-of-fact people so I don't hold that against him, nor do I hold him responsible for not replacing Lukaku. When he became our manager, I was not overly convinced but reckoned he would bring the right discipline and be able to get the best out of the squad while rebuilding at the same time.

Like a lot of others, I was really looking forward to what he would deliver this season but it's not been great for Evertonians and Koeman has to hold his hands up when he picks the team. His future is in his hands for now, but it's got to get better – and soon.

Laurie Hartley
137 Posted 17/10/2017 at 04:21:57
Oliver (#136) – Moshiri may or may not hold our club closer to his heart than Koeman. However, I'll lay odds he cares more about the club than Koeman for the following reasons.

It cost Moshiri £80M to "join" Everton. He's tipped in another interest free loan of £60M which if he was getting 5% interest on would return him £3M a year. Koeman's joining fee was £0.

Koeman (if the rumours are correct) signed up for a guaranteed income over a 3-year period of £18M. I feel "empty" about our current plight – I wonder what is going through Moshiri's mind.

We need Moshiri and actually he needs us. Koeman doesn't need anyone. I am backing Moshiri.

As an afterthought, I haven't heard much about that Russian "scout" that left Arsenal to join us a few weeks ago. Wonder what he is up to – has he been sighted at USM Finch Farm?

Daniel Lim
138 Posted 17/10/2017 at 05:58:06
John @6,

I think that is the only plausible suggestion. A lot of people call the ex-chairman Agent Johnson. Do we have a real agent here, Agent Koeman?

Paul A Smith
139 Posted 17/10/2017 at 07:22:36
Another thread showing how much our fans love a rumour.

Why don't you swap season tickets for the Mecca and have good gossip every Tuesday and Thursday in person?

Stan Schofield
140 Posted 17/10/2017 at 09:46:16
Eddie @135: Koeman doesn't appear 'old school' to me, he appears to be incompetent as a manager. Good managers are good managers, whether old school or new school.
Mike Allen
141 Posted 17/10/2017 at 10:22:25
We've been papering over the cracks since Moyes left. Everyone getting euphoric over the odd performance. Fucking daft if we're giving Koeman till January to spend and waste more money. It's not as if it's one or more pieces needed to fit into the jigsaw – there is no fucking jigsaw to fit into!!!
Oliver Molloy
142 Posted 17/10/2017 at 10:31:40
Luarie,

Yes of course thats what I mean.
At the end of the day Moshiri is here for the money – the better we become and with a new stadium he stands to make quite a bit.

Paul @ 139... including you!

Andrew Clare
143 Posted 17/10/2017 at 11:21:33
There's no doubt that the transfer business ended up incomplete. We didn't get the proven goalscorer or the left-sided defender and signing Rooney was completely unnecessary.

Having said that, it is alarming that a good manager can't even pick a team from the squad of high calibre players that we have, to perform a lot better than they are at the moment. Talk of more signings in January doesn't give me any hope as he can't even get the present players playing properly.

For me the alarm bells started to ring when he signed Williams. I couldn't believe that a former Dutch great and Barcelona player would be looking at such low standard players like Williams to sign.

I hope we have already lined up a replacement as there is no way we will win another game in the foreseeable future.

Dale Rose
144 Posted 17/10/2017 at 13:23:47
Football is the only business in the world where you get rewarded for failure. If someone did some work at my gaffe and did it badly with sub-standard equipment, I wouldn't pay them and I'm sure there are many on this site that wouldn't either.

So why are we worrying about Koeman? He has done a poor job for us, so don't give him any pay out. Let him try and sue the club and the whole mess we are in now will hopefully come out, in particular what forces if any have conspired against him, in particular board and management.

He is being paid a fortune to manage the team, and it is patently obvious that he had no plan for doing this apart from buying a very over-priced midfielder and some players who are past their sell by date.

How much longer this debacle can go on is very disturbing. I've said time and time again on this site that the team we select for each game is just not up to it. They don't look good or comfortable, and although it pains me to say it, are lacking in heart.

Liverpool also drew on Saturday, their second half performance was excellent, they couldn't find the net but never gave up trying. Quality and commitment are badly lacking at the present. I'll dip my fingers in bleach after writing that bit.

I think we have to keep back some of the experienced older players for Europe and make sure they are rested, and start playing more of the youngsters in the league. I cant see any alternative to this. At the present, there is no-one at the club who is going to change anything.

Stan Schofield
145 Posted 17/10/2017 at 14:40:34
Dale, I don't think it's so simple that Koeman could not be paid. There's a contract, and what he gets depends on its details.

When he does eventually go, the squad is good enough to be drilled into some decent performances and results, especially when Coleman, Bolasie and Funes Mori return.

The ambitions of Moshiri appear to extend no further than getting to a level comparable with Liverpool and Arsenal, ie, circa 68 points rather than the circa 58 points we've been finishing on (on average over the last decade or so). That's readily achievable with this squad.

To get to the really top level, circa 15 points more, would no doubt require big money like Usmanov, so of course that doesn't look on the cards, at least for the moment.

The quicker we get Koeman out, the quicker we start to progress under a better manager, assuming one can be found.

Dave Abrahams
147 Posted 17/10/2017 at 15:31:17
I bet a lot on here got excited when they heard the news "Premier League manager sacked". .. turned out it was Leicester's manager Shakespeare.

Maybe Friday it will be a different name.

Tony Marsh
148 Posted 17/10/2017 at 15:52:04
Lyon on Thursday, after we lose heavily, should be the final curtain for Koeman. If Ron isn't gone by the weekend to me that reeks of not having the money to pay him off.

Forget all the bollocks about Moshiri being a Billionaire I am talking about EFC not having enough money to pay off Koeman. Mike Ashley is a Billionaire and he just said he isn't rich enough to put money in to Newcastle.

Farhad Moshiri is here to make big bucks on his purchase of cheap shares – not squander his own money on flop managers. Just like all the other snouts Kenwright brought to the trough, Moshiri is full of crap and out to line his own pockets. If we don't have the money to pay off Koeman we are well and truly fucked.

Ross Edwards
149 Posted 17/10/2017 at 15:54:55
Seems the Leicester owners are more ambitious than our board. They've had a similar start to us having lost to Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Utd and have got rid. Us meanwhile? Moshiri instead decided to make excuses to his mouthpiece Jim didn't he?

If they go out and get someone decent now while the board still clings on to faint hopes we might suddenly click I think I'll be done with this season.

Kunal Desai
150 Posted 17/10/2017 at 16:10:34
If the board hold any dignity within them they will get rid of Koeman by the weekend.
Tony Marsh
151 Posted 17/10/2017 at 16:14:38
Kunal, its not lack of dignity, it's lack of Wonga, mate.

We spent up in the summer. We didn't buy a striker because the Barkley and Niasse deals fell through.

By my reckoning, we are skint.

Phil Greenough
152 Posted 17/10/2017 at 16:42:57
It wouldn't surprise me if they sacked Koeman and brought Shakespeare in. Although Leicester have got the advantage over Everton, if they want to go after Ancelotti or Silva.
Jim Harrison
153 Posted 17/10/2017 at 16:47:02
Game over for me. I have been an advocate of giving the manager time based on the positive areas of last season, but I think he has had enough time.

No big calls of inept management, just didn't work out this time. At the time of his appointment he seemed a good bet, and last season was certainly an improvement. But even without a top class striker we should be doing better.

Burnley and Brighton don't have top end strikers but they can still fashion decent attacks and get goals. We have the players to create the chances, but they are not doing it. Its easier to believe that the manager has got it wrong than that the players have lost their ability.

Its not all doom and gloom! With Coleman and Bolasie coming back and the players available any manager worth his salt would fancy improving the league position

It isn't working at present, I feel he wants out for whatever reason and its time to make the move, and move on!

Daniel Lim
154 Posted 17/10/2017 at 16:54:15
As Shakespeare is sacked today, Koeman should be gone in September. Now not only I am saying Koeman Out, it's also Moshiri Out for me.
Steve Guy
155 Posted 17/10/2017 at 17:31:08
Sack the owner, Daniel? An interesting concept. How does that work?
Kunal Desai
156 Posted 17/10/2017 at 17:40:22
Probably right, Tony. One fraud has joined another. Ambition? Not in Everton's name.
Joe McMahon
157 Posted 17/10/2017 at 17:53:53
Tony & Kunal, it was interesting at the time; it looked like we would have actually been taken over by the American consortium John Jay Moores and Charles Noell, then amazingly Moshiri came along to purchase 49.9% stake, still keeping you know who as the owner.

Steve Guy – Moshiri is the majority shareholder not the owner, that's again you know who.

In a nutshell as usuall Everton are fucked – and I have a feeling the new stadium won't be Bramley-Moore Dock – it will be Crocky in 8 years time.

Tony Marsh
158 Posted 17/10/2017 at 18:35:40
Joe @ 157,

I have doubted the Bramley-Moore stadium ever since it was announced it would be part of the Commonwealth Games bid. Once that fell through, so did the new stadium.

I went past the proposed site yesterday, like I do a few times a week. Ain't nothing going on but the rent. Not a shovel-full of cement in sight... Why???

Moshiri is a bullshitter who is doing Kenwright's dirty work for a load of cheap shares. All the Iranian has really done since he arrived on the scene is get a consortium together to buy the Liver Building. Another money spinner for him. I don't believe a word any of them at the club say. Never have done since Kings Dock.

Brian Porter
159 Posted 17/10/2017 at 19:44:00
Leicester have had the guts to sack Shakespeare and they are not far behind us. Just what is it going to take for Moshiri to dump Koeman? Relegation?
Paul A Smith
160 Posted 17/10/2017 at 21:38:44
Glad people are now starting to see the Moshiri era for what it is. It was plain to see pretty soon for me when he sold Stones and then offered Lukaku and Barkley deals they knew would be refused.

If you think hes here for anything but other than to watch his investment grow you will soon catch on.

On the Leicester subject. Again it was plain to see they had more ambition than us when they kept their best players (who wanted to leave).

Colin Glassar
161 Posted 17/10/2017 at 21:55:43
Tony, sadly, I'll have to second that. I don't believe a word any of this lot come out with. Once Kenwright was left to run the show, I felt like this was another one of his magic tricks.
Neil Copeland
162 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:03:01
I thought that the club stated a while ago that nothing tangible will happen with the Bramley-Moore site until full planning approval is in place – expected (I think) February or March next year?

I appreciate all the conspiracy theories and lack of confidence but the wait for planning would explain the lack of any development at the site.

Tony Marsh
163 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:22:33
Niel (#162),

Regardless of the plans for the stadium design, the basics still need doing. For instance, the dock at Bramley-Moore needs draining and filling. The whole site needs clearing. The footprint which will be a concrete base could be started without stadium design plans yet nothing, nada zilch... Why??

If this proposed stadium was 100% genuine, surely they would be cracking on by now. At least put a digger and a tea hut in there to at least look like it was happening. It's derelict and empty mate.

Looks like another pipe dream bullshit new stadium Kenwright special. Let's face it, the man has form for this shit.

Lawrence Green
164 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:28:46
Neil (#162),

I think it is not just a case of Everton FC gaining planning permission for a new stadium, but the whole project involving Peel etc will need planning permission too. I had expected some news on funding by this stage as I'm sure that something should have been put forward during the summer but I can't find the information to prove that to myself or others.

Perhaps the failed Commonwealth Games bid has put the club on the back-foot for the time being – God forbid it's yet another power struggle within the boardroom as that has led to the near destruction of the club on too many occasions and I certainly wouldn't welcome Moshiri walking away and returning to how we used to be.

As per usual, the Echo makes many errors but the linked time-line has the most recent developments at the bottom of the page incorrectly labelled as dd/mm/2016 when it should read 2017.

Bramley-Moore Timeline

Neil Copeland
165 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:31:05
Tony, maybe the claims about waiting for planning are bullshit and just an excuse for not doing anything – I can see that. But if it isn't bullshit, it would explain the lack of activity because I don't think they will do anything with the site in case the stadium plans are rejected, will they?

Having said all that, I do share yours and others fears that we are simply being fed another line.

Neil Copeland
166 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:35:28
Lawrence, thanks
Tony Marsh
167 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:41:34
Lawrence, forget what the Echo says mate and forget planning permission etc for a second. Do you really think the bunch of twats who couldn't buy a striker in the summer have the funding and the know-how to build this stadium without the LCC and the Commonwealth Games going ahead?

It's pie-in-the-sky stuff. The dock needs draining and filling in so, if it's such a done deal as we were fed 6 months ago, why not start on that job and steal a march?

The quote for draining and filling the site was around £50 Million I have heard. I don't think we could manage that never mind £500 Million for a stadium.

Lawrence Green
168 Posted 17/10/2017 at 22:48:59
Tony (#167),

I totally understand your cynicism about the board and how they have failed on so many occasions to get anywhere near the starting line in relation to a new stadium, but surely this time they couldn't possibly fail to get it done –even if it takes more time than we would all like. Goodison Park cannot continue for another five years in its present state and Everton FC cannot carry on losing ground to its rivals in terms of sponsorship, naming rights etc.

I have the same reservations as you do, but I can't contemplate another failure on such an epic scale and I feel that, if the stadium doesn't materialise on this occasion, it will be the final nail in the coffin for many Evertonians as they will understandably give up on the club that they love.

Roy Mcleod
169 Posted 17/10/2017 at 23:11:36
Tony @167

The filling in the dock would involve a huge volume of material and would be classed as an engineering operation requiring planning permission.

Similarly, the laying of a huge concrete slab would constitute operational development, also requiring planning permission.

No ifs no buts... neither could be accomplished without planning permission.

Tony Marsh
170 Posted 17/10/2017 at 23:14:50
Well said, Lawrence.
Colin Glassar
171 Posted 17/10/2017 at 23:44:55
I bet Leicester go and get Ancellotti or Tuchel now. We’ll wait until Malky McKay gets released from prison.
Stephen Davies
172 Posted 18/10/2017 at 00:33:41
Colin,

They have very ambitious owners who don't mess about.

Yes I'm certain they will at least approach those two... Anchelotti being the prize I think. And considering their recent Premier League title, I think he may well be tempted.

Anyway, I think their next appointment will be interesting and indicative of their ambitions.

Laurie Hartley
174 Posted 17/10/2017 at 00:50:42
Tony, perhaps the reason they haven't drained the dock and filled it in yet is because they are not going to fill it in.

The dock dimensions are adequate to sink the pitch into it and have the top of the first tier of seating stop at quay level.

I am gloomy as any of us about what is happening on the pitch but I am definitely going to give up on this dream until Moshiri himself says it's not going to happen.

Laurie Hartley
175 Posted 18/10/2017 at 00:54:53
Stephen, I think Ancelloti might have a chat with his country man Ranieri before taking the Leicester job on. After all, he got the sack after he won the Premier League for them.
Derek Thomas
176 Posted 18/10/2017 at 00:58:27
Leicester, by virtue of acting promptly, now get 'first pick' of available managers. Everton, if they act at all, will have 2nd pick...

Yes,I know you have to pick wisely and first might not be best, but it could be said we're happy to have a manager that wasn't good enough for Leicester... Leicester, ffs.

Edit: Unless we're already in negotiations that is... Nah!

John Pierce
177 Posted 18/10/2017 at 01:38:32
Laurie, Ancelotti knows what it's like to win the league then get sacked. That's old hat to him. Won't put him off.

Derek is of course right, their decisive actions gets them first pick, and the chagrin of most Evertonians when they get someone we covet.

But that would be our fault for dithering.

Andy Dempsey
179 Posted 18/10/2017 at 02:58:06
I'm now worried Leicester have out-foxed us and will get Big Sam, guaranteeing them a comfortable 12th position come the middle of May. As this board and manager will likely sleep walk into relegation danger, we'll be deprived of our No 1 rescue-act managerial target in February.

Dark energies and timelines are aligning here. I've honestly never spouted about relegation before, I've always felt we'd have enough drive and momentum at the right time. Now, so many elements feel absent, especially the Goodison roar, which I've never heard louder, in modern times, than at the ‘94 Wimbledon game. Only a man who knows Everton can sort this situation out at this stage. This is the truth.

Hopefully Leicester will go for Mancini or Ancelotti because they are massively overrated managers with a track record of pretty dour, insipid football. Last thing we need.

For those who keep banging on about Ancelotti – a German journo Rafa Honigstein (reliable geezer) reported this week that Bayern training sessions were now back to a professional standard with speed and intensity under Heynckes.

Apparently some Bayern players were having secret sessions in their local park without Ancelotti's knowledge because they felt the atmosphere was too chummy and they weren't getting enough work done in training.

Unsworth is the man. He knows the club. He knows the fans. The appointment won't be made because most people in football are fucking shithouses. Like a lot of things in life, people make decisions based on fear. They go for what they think is the safest brand/option, something which seems to guarantee success, or rather a lack of failure.

Nothing guarantees success or a lack of failure. Take the risk. Appoint Unsworth now!!!!

Laurie Hartley
180 Posted 18/10/2017 at 05:27:58
John (#177), I have to agree with you there.

Andy (#179), Ancelloti was my first pick to be honest but Darren Hind's posts convinced me that Unsworth is the man.

Last but not least – in a relegation battle, no-one can compete with Sam – in my opinion, a very under-rated manager. Here is a quote on his escapades at Palace which I have posted previously:

"It was a great end to a very difficult start to my tenure at Palace but we finally came through with flying colours. For me, one of the best 10 to 12 days I had was when we beat Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Arsenal at home."

Several decades since any of our managers achieved anything like that.

Brian Porter
181 Posted 18/10/2017 at 07:11:06
Leicester have showed themselves to be decisive in getting rid of their failing manager, while Moshiri and our board continue to do a Nero, fiddling while Rome burns, or, in our case, dithering while Everton become a laughing stock and potential relegation fodder under Koeman.

I've been saying for weeks that Koeman's time with us is turning into a mirror image of his time at Valencia. Players dropped and alienated, playing a system totally unsuited to the players at his disposal, telling certain players that they had no part in his team, and overseeing a fall from 5th in La Liga, just four points from the top on the day he took over, to two places and two points above the drop zone on the day he was sacked, just 22 games later!

Everything about his spell with us has been like a painful replay of his Valencia days. I have always followed Valencia as 'my team' in Spain since visiting the town many years ago and, despite the behind the scenes wrangling at the club during his tenure, that shouldn't have stopped him from doing the job he was paid to do, ie, managing the team and ensuring the playing side of the club was in safe hands. He failed spectacularly and only when he was sacked did they manage to put a late string of results together to ensure their safety and preserve their top-flight status.

Things are bad and will continue to get worse as long as he is at the helm. I admit I never wanted him in the first place, mostly based on his previous record at Valencia, AZ Altmar, and Benfica, all sackings amid poor results and appalling man-management. A man who gets sacked so many times obviously has some serious flaws in his managerial make-up, but he has managed to cleverly trade on his past reputation as a player, convincing gullible people like Moshiri that he is a 'top manager' despite the opposite being the case, if one cares to sit down and fully analyse his past managerial record.

Now, Leicester have the choice of available managers as our board dillys and dallys as we tumble down the table towards the relegation zone, a la Valencia. The writing is on the wall, Moshiri. For the love of God, wake up man, see what's happening to our club and Act now, before it's too late.

Will Mabon
182 Posted 18/10/2017 at 07:49:58
Brian – there might be the plot for a novel in there: was the collapse of the team being done on purpose for some nefarious reason?

As a twist, you could have Koeman going to Leicester as their new manager.

Tony Marsh
183 Posted 18/10/2017 at 07:51:13
Is there any chance a few Koeman Out banners can be taken the game on Thursday? Let the protests begin because I reckon the Dutch Mike Walker has had an easy ride so far. The Kopites would've lynched Koeman by now.

Action needs to be taken, pressure needs to be applied, cushions need throwing, Grim Reapers need to appear... This can't go on.

I know Andy Crooks will hate this but would we accept a heavy defeat in the dead rubber against Lyon if it means the sack for Rigid Ron?

Will Mabon
184 Posted 18/10/2017 at 08:06:50
Must admit, the return of the Grim Reaper would raise the spirits a bit. Mind you, he'd be out wide in the stands, Koeman probably wouldn't see him.
Ray Robinson
185 Posted 18/10/2017 at 08:20:41
Tony (#183). How the hell is the Lyon match on Thursday a dead rubber?
Stan Schofield
186 Posted 18/10/2017 at 08:31:41
Derek@176: Although this is Everton, I'd be surprised if Moshiri & Co weren't working behind the scenes now to find a new manager. If the ambition is to get to the top-6 and Champions League (not necessarily the 'top'), with all the money and profit that stem from that, Moshiri will surely be acting now. If he isn't, the current investment would look a waste, given the current performances on the pitch, and surely his business acumen isn't that low?
Tony Marsh
187 Posted 18/10/2017 at 08:35:30
Ray, come on, mate. If we can't beat Burnley or Brighton, what do you think is going to happen come Thursday? I have been watching Lyon recently. Let's just say with Koeman in charge this is as good as a dead rubber. If you're confident we can win, put some money down, mate. You're getting decent odds on Everton.

Chris Leyland
188 Posted 18/10/2017 at 08:39:07
Tony (#183) – let us know what your banner will have written on it and where you will be so that everyone can keep an eye out for it and tell us how many cushions you are going to be taking.

Whilst you are at it, put up a link to the Grim Reaper costume you have ordered so that others can get one too.

Craig Walker
189 Posted 18/10/2017 at 09:12:13
Lawrence @168. Very well said. If Bramley-Moore comes to nothing, then I think what little hope I have for Everton's future will be gone. It's the one glimmer of hope we all have.
Tony Cunningham
190 Posted 18/10/2017 at 09:44:07
Tony @183, don't get me wrong – I'm not bigging up our chances but just to point out Ray @185 has a point about your mis-use of the term 'dead rubber'. If we lose, then the following matches may become dead rubbers but it means whilst we still have a chance (and we can still get 12 points from the group), it is far from a dead rubber.

"Dead rubber is a term used in sporting parlance to describe a match in a series where the series result has already been decided by earlier matches. The dead rubber match therefore has no effect on the winner and loser of the series, other than the number of matches won and lost."

Pedanting over!

Stephen Davies
191 Posted 18/10/2017 at 09:47:52
When will the 'tipping point' be? Will there be a 'tipping' point?

Looking at the fixtures till the end of November, I cannot realistically see where the next win will be. We play both Leicester and Crystal Palace away during that period and we are presently 2 points ahead of Leicester who will likely have a new manager in place by then. Palace had a deserved win against the Champions last weekend and will have their tails up, with renewed hope and some fight.

If something doesn't change soon and points won, then make no bones about it we will be in deep trouble. I just don't see anything changing soon which is a very big worry.

This in turn leads to more concerns .lets say for arguements sake. that Koeman is pushed... then would the mind set of the Board be inclined to go for a manager to 'save' the situation (ie, Allardyce) or a manager for the future? ... which begs the question: Would that manager for the future be the right manager for a relegation battle?

These next few weeks may well turn out to be as crucial as the Mike Walker period. At some point, the board is going to have to make a decision to stick or twist... (at the moment, it appears its sticking with what it's got). I fear that, when January comes, that decision may be too late.

Oliver Brunel
192 Posted 18/10/2017 at 10:17:38
I for one don't want Allardyce or that type of dullard anywhere near Everton FC. Not good enough. Repeat. Not good enough.
Tony Marsh
193 Posted 18/10/2017 at 10:28:33
Tony @ 190

On current form and with the Gormless one in charge, we will lose on Thursday. I was being sarcastic using 'dead rubber' but, as far as I'm concerned, every game now under Ronald is a dead rubber.

Chris Stone
194 Posted 18/10/2017 at 10:48:05
Oliver, whilst his football may not be the most exciting ever seen, Allardyce most definitely is 'good enough' – he always gets teams out of trouble. Bringing him in as a firefighter wouldn't be the worst decision the board could make.

For sure he'll have us better organised and harder to beat than Koeman currently. Maybe Unsworth could take us out of this mess and salvage our pride too, but he's possibly more of a risk than Sam. I'm not saying I want Sam as manager but we could do a lot worse, and we are doing worse!

Did you read the quote earlier? Allardyce (at Palace): "For me, one of the best 10 to 12 days I had was when we beat Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Arsenal at home." As was said earlier, when have you seen an Everton manager even come close to that?? No wins at Stamford Bridge in the Premier League (I believe); 1999 since last win at Anfield...

Maybe a better fit is out there but we need to find them and they need to be willing to come on board to take on a massive challenge, given the very unbalanced squad currently.

Chris Stone
195 Posted 18/10/2017 at 10:53:40
But Tony, playing devil's advocate, what about the £75m bid for Costa? Lol! On a serious note, can anybody detail that this bid definitely happened and on what date? I guess January may show us the financial health of the club, although you never know what strings get pulled behind the scenes to keep us guessing...
Stephen Davies
196 Posted 18/10/2017 at 11:49:33
Oliver... I'm not advocating that Allardyce become the next Everton manager.

What I was trying to point out was, should we find ourselves in such a perilous situation, then that scenario demands very careful decision making, ie, a fire fighting response (as mentioned above) to save our position in the Premier League... or planning for the future?

Allardyce not being good enough in those situations? In fact, he's the very best in those situations... his record categorically proves that.

Andy Meighan
198 Posted 18/10/2017 at 17:48:42
Oliver (#192),

Who is good enough then? Come on, name a decent enough manager to get us out the mess we're in – and believe me, we are in a mess.

We could do a lot worse than Allardyce who, to me ,is ten times the coach this clown is. Let's be honest, the football couldn't be any worse than what we're witnessing now.

Chris Stone
199 Posted 19/10/2017 at 06:45:15
Agree totally with Stephen & Andy. And to those few Koeman apologists – let's say the board/Walsh did bungle getting in a striker before September just gone – still doesn't excuse purchasing so many #10s and leaving the squad weak in defence (left, centre and right) and possibly on the wings too. Coupled with the tactics and lineups the season has been a disaster so far and I'm in the camp that he cannot possibly turn the ship around now.

Who to replace him? Would anyone be genuinely upset with so-called less 'stylish' managers such as Dyche or Allardyce? Considering where we're heading currently! Of course in a perfect world we want to see sexy football and wins, but I'd rather get 60-70 points on the board with a host of 1-0 wins than 40-50 points with more goals scored and conceded...

Stan Schofield
200 Posted 19/10/2017 at 10:07:31
It's apparent that Koeman's management of the squad is in a mess, but that doesn't imply that we're in a mess as a club. So long as he goes reasonably quickly, ie, the board don't dither too much in replacing him, or he turns things around very quickly (unlikely), there's little reason to panic over the risk of relegation.

Koeman's replacement should not just be a firefighter rescuing us from potential relegation, not unless the board fail to act within a reasonable time scale and we are in a relegation fight, which we're not at the moment.

I don't think we want someone like Allardyce, not if we have real ambition. He's good at what he does, and was a good fit for a very mediocre England set-up, but he's not a good fit for us. Recruiting someone like him would be defeatist and small-club mentality, which we're trying to get away from.

Ian Riley
201 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:56:20
Everton too big for Sam Allardyce. Do me a favour. If you know your history. Yes, that's all the club have lived off for thirty years. Let's face it, in our current situation, Sam Allardyce may turn us down.

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