The One-Man Wrecking Ball

by   |   18/09/2017  166 Comments  [Jump to last]

Before anyone talks about giving Koeman more time, it's worth remembering that a heck of a lot of Saints fans were happy to see the back of him. But let's also remember what happened to Valencia under Koeman's leadership. I know I'm repeating much of what some already know, but here goes, and this is a short version of what took place there.

Koeman first admitted he was losing control if the team then went to extreme lengths to try to correct (his) mistakes. He told three key players, Canizares, Albelda and Anglo they would no longer feature in his plans and they could look for different clubs, (sounding familiar so far?).

Santiago Canizares, a world - class goalkeeper said he would consider retirement if Koeman stood by his decision to leave him out of the team for the rest of the season. Barcelona immediately registered an interest in him.

David Albelda took legal action against the club to get his contract terminated after calling a press conference to announce his frustration with the management (Koeman), stating that he deserved better than public humiliation.

Angulo also spoke to the press, saying that the club's veterans were being treated with little or no respect by Koeman.

After Athletic Bilbao, who hadn't scored more than twice at home all season, hit five against Koeman's Valencia, Raul Albiol of Valencia said, "The dressing room is like a funeral," and the funeral was Koeman's. The fans and players couldn't wait to get rid of him.

When he took over from the sacked Sanchez-Florescent, Valencia were four points off the top of La Liga. They then took only 18 out of a possible 66 points, and were 35 points off the top and had won only four games, and sat two points above the relegation zone.

He presided over a divided dressing room who (surprise, surprise), found themselves totally at a loss with his tactics, with Joaquin saying Koeman's tactics had them running around like headless chickens (again, sound familiar?) and the only reason they eventually escaped relegation was that the players got together and dumped his tactics and played it their way. The final nail in his coffin.

Now, if anyone can't see the similarities between then and now, they have to be deaf, dumb and blind. What the hell was Moshiri doing when he appointed Koeman? Did he not read the man's record? Didn't he pick up any of the vibes coming out of Southampton?

At least Valencia eventually took action to get rid of this awful man before he got them relegated. Has Moshiri got the guts to admit his mistake and do the right thing to save us from similar humiliation?

When you consider he could have gone for Premier League winner Pellegrini, or Europa League winner Emery at the time, it does raise a question or two about how much in-depth football knowledge Mr. Moshiri really possesses.

Everything in Koeman's past spells out DISASTER in capital letters. He almost destroyed Valencia, a club with a long and proud history (sound familiar again). For God's sake don't let him do the same to us. If it takes fan protests a la Valencia then let's do it, let the club know how we feel.

Start an online petition, anything, something, but we need to get this one-man wrecking ball out of our beloved Everton.

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Reader Comments (166)

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Jerome Shields
1 Posted 18/09/2017 at 17:43:48
Brian Porter,

Thank you for your information regarding Koeman's Valencia days.I had read he had problems there, but didn't know the details. You are 100 percent right that Koeman is doing the same to Everton.

I am full agreement with you that he has to go or he will destroy Everton Football Club. Like you, I can't believe that he was employed instead of Pellegrini.

The Board of Everton are also a problem in that they won't get rid of him fast enough. If he was a manager in Division 4, he would be sacked. Can you find out who came up with the mad idea he was bidding his time at Everton ,before he Managed Barcelona.

He is hoping to get a few results from lesser teams and try to lower expectations to save his own skin. He has also got the senior players long pass their sell-by date and motivated the protect their unjustifiable wages to buy into his plan of negative tactics.

As far as managing a football team is concerned Koeman is a muppet. Koeman is the worst threat to Everton Football Club there has ever been.

Brian Porter
2 Posted 18/09/2017 at 18:45:21
Apologies for the error in the name of Valencia's previous manager. Should go f course be Sanchez-Flores. I'm afraid I was hijacked by predictive text!
Geoff Lambert
3 Posted 18/09/2017 at 19:03:04
We need to vote with our feet.

Sunderland up next in the cup, getting emails of the club "buy your tickets now"

No thanks I think I will wait till we get someone in charge who knows what they are doing before I go back.

I did not renew my season ticket this year because of the dire football being played.

COYB Koeman OUT .

Darren Hind
4 Posted 18/09/2017 at 19:16:27
A damning indictment.

I honestly didn't know any of this.

I realised after about half a dozen games that Koeman was always going to be ultra cautious that has always been my beef, but as time has passed I see more and more flaws in his make up.

The way he has handled Niasse. Mirallas and Barkley shouldn't have come as any surprise at all. Not with his previous

This certainly seems to support all the reservations expressed by many about his man management skills.

Moshiri must surely realise he has bought a pup. The sooner he rectifies his mistake the better for all concerned.

Brian Williams
5 Posted 18/09/2017 at 19:28:14
Really glad that this post was turned into a thread to highlight the spooky similarities between our great club and Valencia. They are frightening they really are.
Steve Barr
6 Posted 18/09/2017 at 19:28:16
You'd think the club, as a matter of course, should be planning well ahead for all contingencies with succession planning for both players and management. Any decent business does this.

The information you highlight in the article would be easily available to our club owners as they conduct their due diligence for future recruits.

The amateur nature of the club is apparent in its discharge of just about every aspect of the business of running a professional football club.

I have no confidence that they'll get it right in the event they do sack Koeman, which in my opinion they should do based on his performance so far and lack of any progress whatsoever.

Hopefully we'll get lucky and find the class manager we the fans deserve.

Brian Porter
7 Posted 18/09/2017 at 20:57:27
Thanks guys. All the information relating to Koeman's time at Valencia is easily accessible on the web. Moshiri or any of his advisors could easily have found this all out in advance of hiring him. There was a lot more to his time there but I stuck to the biggest similarities to his time with us in my post.

I should thank my son who is a club member at FC Barcelona and fount of all knowledge relating to La Liga, who first told me about the turmoil at Valencia and the trouble caused by Koeman's tenure there.

Brian Harrison
9 Posted 18/09/2017 at 21:52:43
Brian

Just in fairness he did win the Copa del Rey for Valencia in 2008, and I don't think too many managers since have won much for Valencia.

Oliver Molloy
10 Posted 18/09/2017 at 21:55:45
Whoops, Brian @ 8 beat me to it!

He also won the Copa del Rey with Valencia (their first trophy in 8 or 9 years) beating Barcelona in the two leg semis – and yes then it went pear-shaped!

Paul Baxter
11 Posted 18/09/2017 at 22:42:45
I seem to remember when Tottenham were looking for a manager that Koeman was being mentioned, but the media were reporting that Arsenal had lined him up to replace Wenger so it never happened and they got Pochettino instead.

This could be why Moshiri was so set on him as he already had him in mind from his time at Arsenal. I was never 100% behind appointing him, but I wanted Alan Stubbs, so what do I know...

Andy Crooks
12 Posted 18/09/2017 at 23:10:43
Brian, when you start your online petition, I will give a good deal of thought to signing it.

I assume you are starting one???

Brian Porter
13 Posted 18/09/2017 at 23:51:02
Brian (#8) yes, he won the Copa del Rey with them the week before the game at Athletic Bilbao. That was again because the players had ditched his tactics and did it their way. At the end of the match, he went on to the pitch to look for someone to celebrate with. Every single player ignored him. Not one would give him a man hug or a handshake. They hated him so much.

Eventually one or two gave him a half-hearted hug, (for the cameras), but later, when it was time to board the team coach, every player walked past him and ignored him and he was left to board the empty bus alone and isolated.

Because of the deep divisions in the club, mostly a result of his management and attitudes, the club announced there would be no formal celebrations after winning the Cup. There was no open-top bus parade, no visit to the town council, no formal offering to the virgin (it's a Spanish thing), all released in a press communique. The only person they did not inform of this decision was Koeman who was left to find out in the press.

He was sacked just five months after signing a new 2½-year contract with the club two points off the relegation zone and looking doomed. Between them, the players and new caretaker boss, former Valencia player (Unsworth anyone?), Salvador Gonzalez Marco, pulled them clear of the drop zone and saved them from relegation.

Sadly, Valencia have never been able to regain their former place among the elite clubs in La Liga. The knock-on effect of Koeman's disastrous reign still continues to have a lasting effect on the once-great club.

Nitesh Kanchan
14 Posted 19/09/2017 at 03:07:19
Oliver, it was the year Rijkaard got sacked and Barcelona made it to the Champions League next year by the skin of their teeth, 20 odd points behind Real. The very next year, Barcelona B coach took over who had just won La Liga 2, got rid of fat Ronaldinho and won the treble.
Andy Crooks
15 Posted 19/09/2017 at 05:18:12

I have lost faith in Koeman but have defended him stoutly for some time. I do not like the football we play and I am dismayed to see us in the bottom three. However, whilst understanding the anger on recent threads, I fear it is pointless. Koeman, in my view will not be sacked any time soon.

Why not? Because it seems to me that those in control of the club believe he will get it right. When a man is down, it is easy to dig up every article and fact that will damn him. There are positives to be found. Despite what has been said I have seen no post pleased with what happened at Old Trafford. Just some Evertonians saying that it was an improvement. It was and that cannot be denied.

We have good players who are shot of confidence. Koeman may have lost the dressing room but that is not a fact; it is conjecture put forward as fact by angry supporters. Koeman was not shite at Southampton. His team played, at times, some fine football. Their supporters, at least on their fansites, were gutted when he left.

There is much that I am unhappy about but he is here, we are where we are and I am not thinking of disaster and relegation battles. I am certain that every person who posts on this site puts our club before a hired hand. Right now, though, like it or not he is our hired hand. I am behind him and wish him well.
Andy Peers
16 Posted 19/09/2017 at 05:35:56
Reasons to keep Ronald Koeman:

1 – Players being played out of position.
2 – Playing players totally out of form ( stand up Schneiderlin, Williams, Baines etc. )
3 – Not playing players that are hungry, talented, lots of skill (sorry I forgot we didn't get any during transfer window).
4 – Calling emergency meetings that mean fuck all.
5 – Making Moyes and Martinez feel way better about themselves.
6 – Continuing without exciting football and a lack of a will to win.
7 – Having your brother write down who exactly you are going to blame for the loss and lack of effort when you do the press conference.

Anyone got any other reasons to keep him?

Darren Hind
17 Posted 19/09/2017 at 05:40:16
Andy,

There is little option but to get behind Koeman... on match days, but if you don't see the damage he is doing our club now, you never will.

Sunday was not an improvement. Man Utd could and should have had six. Some on here were calling the draw against man City a defensive masterclass – even though City missed chance after chance and could have easily ran up a cricket score. That was a couple of weeks ago. How on earth can a 4-0 defeat be seen as an improvement.

We have conceded 10 goals in just over a week – that is bad enough, but – think about this – it could and should have been very much more.

We are the most negative team in the league, yet it is only the profligacy of the opposition in front of goal that has stopped us breaking records for goals conceded.

Give it up, lad. He isn't coming back from this.

John G Davies
18 Posted 19/09/2017 at 07:03:11
And the chances we missed?

Don't they count?

Dave Wilson
19 Posted 19/09/2017 at 07:25:32
I think we had done well to score with virtually all of our good chances so far this season, before the Man Utd game. It is well documented that we hadn't actually created much else.

The chances Rooney and Siggy missed against united were due to a little good fortune as opposed to good creative play. It's very difficult to take chances when they come along so infrequently.

That said, the improvement was obvious. We were getting men into the opposition box – at last. I think we should give him until Christmas to get his shit together.

Paul Ward
20 Posted 19/09/2017 at 07:40:49
Brian has revealed some compelling circumstantial evidence about Koeman's time at Valencia. These facts were unknown to me and Darren (who would have sacked Koeman after 6 games in charge).

Although I refuse to join the lynch mob at this stage, I find his management and tactics hard to accept, and I honestly don't think he is capable of turning it around.

Without making any excuses for him so far, I would be prepared to give him to Christmas to improve. Today is not the time to change managers. The best we could hope for, if we sacked him today would be for Rhino to come in as caretaker manager then hope for a mediocre manager who would take over if Rhino was not up to it. When I said 'mediocre manager', that is all we have had for the last 30 years.

Some Toffee webbers are a joke when they draw up their list of potential world class managers. When are they going to get the fact that no top manager will ever come to Everton, how ever much they pay him ?

We are a middle-of-the-table club with a manager who isn't as good as we thought... so why bring up parochial shit like "He never says 'we' or 'us', he says 'Everton'"?

Paul Tran
21 Posted 19/09/2017 at 07:48:03
Doesn't help himself, does he?

7th last season, playing dull football. Spends over £100m, then tells us he's expecting the same. Not what I want to hear.

I eventually watched the 'highlights' of Sunday's game. Had the same feelings I had when I watched Walker's team lose at Palace. They're his players, it's not working.

Now it's about when Moshiri realises it's time to seek an alternative.

John G Davies
22 Posted 19/09/2017 at 08:07:52
BTW.

You can't run up a cricket score when you only have 7 shots on target. Distortion of the facts to further the point gets you nowhere.

John Keating
23 Posted 19/09/2017 at 08:13:14
A few similarities to Martinez. Stubborn and refusing to change tactics. A player "revolt" to actually change tactics on the pitch.

Martinez's second season was his downfall, though signs appeared towards the last few matches of his first.

Personally I think Koeman should not be given the time Martinez was. The signs are all there. If the Board really have the interest of the Club at heart then he should be paid off ASAP.

Forget the Europa League and the cup competitions with this squad, whoever comes in will have enough to do with damage limitation and survival.

Even at this early stage things must quickly get sorted. Ask Leeds, Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland supporters if they thought their clubs were to big to go down and, with hindsight, left it too late.

Liam Reilly
24 Posted 19/09/2017 at 08:21:42
It's easy to dig up negative reports on someone when it's not going well. To say Valencia beat Barca over 2 legs because the players ignored his instructions is nonsense.

I recall Koeman repeatedly stating during the transfer window that a striker and a left back were both necessities. I don't think he helped himself being in Portugal on TDD but I also don't believe it's his fault that the players weren't sourced earlier.

This is his team and his players, but there's a gaping hole missing up front that Rooney is being asked to fill and that gap is the responsibility of the board and Walsh – not Koeman.

Oliver Molloy
25 Posted 19/09/2017 at 08:48:46
Moshiri will not sack Koeman until it is absolutely 100% evident that the players will not play for him etc. Koeman was brought to Everton by him and the billionaire will not want to look the fool in his choice of manager.

Unsworth would only be a temporary stop gap. The board, manager, Director of Football made a monumental fuck-up in not signing a replacement for Lukaku. The word is, when Koeman arrived, that all sides agreed that, if Everton did not make the Champions League, then the club would not stand in his way if a club in the Champions League made a suitable offer for him.

Now, rumour has it there is a lot of finger-pointing going on behind the scenes at board level regards Lukaku being under-valued, with the accusation that Lukaku's agent knew that Neymar was going to go for massive money and told Mourinho to buy before Neymar was sold.

Moshiri is not happy that our people at the club were not in the know, so to speak! He's not happy the way the whole transfer happened, not even getting the £100 million he originally demanded!

Ray Jacques
26 Posted 19/09/2017 at 08:48:58
I don't see the relevance of comparing us to Valencia as different sets of players involved although I enjoyed the article and Koeman's demeaner does concern me. I didn't get along with the ex wife but do with the present wife (for now!!)

Just sat in Bilbao airport waiting for a delayed flight after attending Real Soceidad games last week. Although they lost to Madrid, at least they play football and didn't bore me to death.

Sam Hoare
27 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:17:13
Pretty selective stuff here!! When Valencia lost, it was Koeman's fault and when they won it was because the players ditched his tactics. Also, let's just talk about Valencia where it all went wrong and not Southampton where he actually finished higher than Pochettino had managed despite having to sell many of their best players.

I'm not a fan of Koeman by any stretch but, if you are going to condemn him, then at least do it in a balanced way that gives your argument some credibility.

I'm not optimistic but i'm still prepared to give him another 6 weeks or so against a slightly lower calibre of opposition to see if he can show us what the plan is for this bunch of payers that he has brought together. I fully expect to be joining the Koeman Out bandwagon but don't want to feel like Steve Parish when I do...

Danny Halsall
28 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:18:19
I don't think his first season in charge was so bad when you consider we finished 7th comfortably; this after what we had endured under Martinez the season before.

Also, if Southampton fans did want to see the back of him, that seems strange, considering he led them to their highest ever premier league positions over the course of 2-3 seasons.

That said, Koeman has obvious failings. I don't know how much he has to do with the recruitment process, but we have bought incorrectly and not strengthened in key positions. To my eyes, Koeman does not know how to manage a team without a centre-forward as a focal point, he likes big target men. Now that we do not have one his tactics aren't working.

Pickford and the whole defence will look to get the ball forward quickly, only for it not to stick and, as somebody has already alluded to, he has no Plan B, he only knows how to play one way it seems, which of course is not what we were hoping for when he signed a contract worth £6M/per year.

Unlike some, though, I do like his ruthless streak and getting rid of all the deadwood was a big job, one that under the Koeman's regime has accelerated. So, in my opinion, there have been both positives and negatives during his time so far.

I am not trying to defend Koeman, but I think it is clear that he does not and shouldn't shoulder all the blame for our current form.

Charles Barrow
29 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:30:39
Yes I'm sure he won't be sacked yet, even though he deserves to be! If he wasn't a 'name' (God preserve us from arrogant know-nothing marque managers) he'd be gone Monday morning.

Moshiri won't sack him as I assume he was his choice. Billionaires don't like to be proved wrong.

Paul Tran
30 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:34:12
The original article also mentions that Valencia was a basket case of a club, riven with boardroom discord.

'Hard man' managers work well when they're competent and get results. Winning players are happy players. When the manager is incompetent, there's nothing to justify the 'hardness' and the players get hacked off and down tools.

That, I think, is where we currently are.

Oliver Molloy
31 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:54:02
Did the players down tools at Man Utd on Sunday?
Carl Taylor
32 Posted 19/09/2017 at 09:56:22
Tuesday morning and still no announcement; oh well, our ambition is still to battle for the Best of the Rest positions. I am so deflated at present.

I can't understand the 'give him a run against lesser teams' mentality we are adopting. So let's say we beat Sunderland, Bournemouth, Apollon and Burnley. We can even throw in Brighton and maybe Arsenal & Lyon at a push. It means nothing because, as soon as we play Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham and Man Utd over the Christmas period, we still get battered. We should be aiming/believing we can challenge these teams, go toe to toe with them and push them hard. Mr Koeman say's that is unrealistic for little Everton.

Finally, a point I have made elsewhere, to those thinking January will bring the striker, defenders, pace and fight we need. Who will want to come to a team with the ambition stated by the manager as finishing where we finished last season. (By the way, we finished nowhere last season, again best of the also-rans.)

Not good enough.

James Marshall
33 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:05:40
Manager wins a cup, then struggles in the league – sound familiar?

Sorry but this is just using a particular angle to vent your spleen, and get your point across to suit your own agenda.

I don't believe this is what's going on, I just think he's being stubborn with his insistence on not playing with any width!

James McPherson
34 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:20:46
Mob rule. Mob mentality. Wrapping the EFC flag around them as though they are the only ones that know, that care, that have the foresight. Anyone not following their mantra is delusional and misguided. All extremely distasteful.

You cite Valencia. The club that since Koenan's departure has got through 13 managers whose average tenure is 28 games. 2 of those managers, Ranieri and Pellegrino (lasting 36 and 21 games respectively) are not bad managers.

In focusing on Valencia you seem to skirt past his Dutch record and with regard to Southampton you state there was trouble – but provide no evidence whatsoever in backing that up.

As for Darren Hind, are we really applying time and thought to a 'fan' that says his decision to sack Koeman was made after 6 games – Really??

This mob mentality is destabilising the club and serves no purpose. Koeman is under performing big time. He's making poor decisions. He needs to improve. But the culpability has to be shared across the board and players too.

To those that like knee jerk, go and follow your model club Valencia - the revolving door, get him out, get another one in is all the rage there. And Darren Hind, you'll have more chance of having that warm glow of 'I told you so, you heard it here first' descend over you.

Kevin Tully
35 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:24:21
After watching our dire away performances last season, I was hopeful we would see a vast improvement in our overall style of play. Fair enough, we only lost twice at Goodison last season, not too bad considering the mess Martinez left us in.

Sometimes though, you have to concede that you are wrong. Koeman will never make us into a Champions League side. I very much doubt he could end our trophy drought. If we have to win a game away at Anfield for instance, to progress in a Cup, do you think he's the man? I actually never realised how ultra-defensive he is. Lukaku must have papered over some gaping cracks last season.

We pay this man £6m a season. We could easily pay someone £8m. That gets you top class, proven talent. We don't have to take a punt anymore, we can BUY a world class manager.

Has anyone heard the crowd singing Koeman's name? A sure sign he hasn't connected with the fans. I also imagine he hasn't connected with the players, either. I don't believe Koeman will ever become the manager to take us where we all want to be. He just hasn't got 'it.'

Paul Ward
36 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:31:48
Well said, James McPherson!!
Brian Harrison
37 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:40:10
James

I agree with every word of your post, I am as disappointed as anyone that we are not playing well and seem to be struggling to find a system that both manager and players are comfortable with. But I am afraid the zealot "Koeman Out" brigade won't have any other solution than to sack him. Now I don't know if Koeman can make us successful or not but one season is far to early to judge.

James, I also agree with your point about the "Koeman Out" brigade thinking they are the only ones who really care about the club, and everybody else will just put up with any old rubbish. I am lucky enough and old enough to have seen most of our great players ,starting with Bobby Collins, and I have also seen some awful managers and players in that time.

I have seen the cushion throwers to the brilliant supporters we have had over the decades. But fans nowadays want instant success – no time to build sides, no tolerance shown; maybe that's because of the money involved these days.

Finally, for all his faults, I think you have to applaud Koeman in his willingness to introduce young players into the squad and team.

Carl Taylor
38 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:43:20
James @34, if you can hear me up there on the moral high ground, why don't you go and support Arsenal. There is a club who have stood by their manager whilst the fan's point out his stubborn refusal to change his approach in the face of obvious short-comings. They have stood by the manager, whilst other clubs have moved forward and beyond them.

We stood by a manager who moved us forward as far as he could for way too long in Moyes. He instilled the "plucky little Everton" mentality that we seem unable to shake.

We are supposed to have a new, ambitious benefactor. How ambitious can he be if he sanctions the summer spend and then his manager states the best (not the minimum, the best!) we can hope for is the same as last season because he cannot manage/coach the players to fit together as a team and perform to the best of their ability.

Rob Young
39 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:44:37
Carl (#32) – spot on!

Also, I couldn't care less about Koeman as he obviously isn't too bothered about 'Everton'.

I do care about Ross Barkley – despite him not performing as he should at all.

Koeman Out... and who knows, Barkley might decide he wants to stay.

James Marshall
40 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:49:24
OK here's a question to all those who want Koeman sacked, genuine question so try to post genuine answers without spite, or anything derogatory – let's keep it civil.

Who do you bring in to replace Koeman, and what's the plan moving forward?

Brent Stephens
41 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:50:08
James #34, a reasonable, moderating post. We were ALL cautiously optimistic about Koeman after the first half dozen or so games of his tenure. I think we're all now cautious at best.

We've got a fair number of new players who've not played with us before this season, a team that is radically different in composition from last season, and have had a challenging fixture list to the season's start.

Just a bit too soon for me to say Koeman should go – but he hasn't got long to prove himself. For me, the next month or so of games will tell. and then he might be on his way out if things ain't improved.

Rob Young
42 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:58:24
I'd give it to Unsworth.

Starts looking for a long-term replacement (Silva, Howe or some foreigner I know nothing about) and as long as you have not found one – keep one eye on how Rhino is doing.

If nothing else we might see players played in their proper positions and a team at least having a proper go.

As for short term tactics – Lennon, Lookman, Vlasic and Mirallas can all play on the wing. Use them.

We have no width at all apart from Martina running down the line.

As for strikers, no other option but to use at least one of Sandro, Calvert-Lewin or Niasse every game.

James McPherson
43 Posted 19/09/2017 at 10:59:17
Carl – are you comparing the Arsenal situation (Wenger being there 20+ years) with Koeman having an atrocious run of 6 games with new players he's just bought?

Rob (#39) – just so I'm clear Koeman not performing as he should (over this season) – get rid. Barkley not performing (over a longer period) keep?. This is the Barkley that was asked to stay and sign a contract giving him over £100k per week...but declined because he did not want to play for EFC – the Barkley whose antics (driven by the agent I agree) is costing us several million pounds? Yet it is just Koeman that does not care about EFC?

Look, if Koeman does not improve and demonstrate capability to take the team forward then he will be dismissed – with justification. My argument concerns the knee jerk mob mentality that is calling for his head now.

Too early and driven in some contributors minds by an innate dislike of the man and no more. I find it distasteful that our fans call our manager the 'c-word'. Not the norm in my world – but shows that in some people it is just pure vitriol. I am merely calling that out.

Rob Young
44 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:02:09
James (#43),

We do not know why Barkley hasn't signed, what if it is because of Koeman? I just hate an Evertonian leaving the club like this.

If they out-perform the team and go for Champions League football and trophies – though but I get it.

If we let them go as they are not good enough – shame but I get it.

Franny Porter
45 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:02:28
James, I don't know who would replace him, but thankfully that's the job of the club execs and not us lot. At this exact moment in time Id rather have Unsworth.

I worry that when (if) we beat Sunderland, Bournemouth, and get a point at Brighton, people will be saying "I knew he'd turn it around".

That's not turning it around for me, turning it around would be making an attempt to beat one of the top six teams and playing pacey direct football. Something he seems incapable and unwilling of doing.

On top of this, I just can't stand his arrogance.

John G Davies
46 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:03:31
Who are you thinking of, Kevin?

Which top class manager do you reckon would take the Everton job?

James McPherson
47 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:13:00
Franny (#45) – reasonable post.

As I have mentioned, I am not carrying a banner saying "Koeman must stay at all costs"... He has to be judged on results and performances – and if he's not up to scratch he will go because he has to go. My posts are addressing the distasteful mob mentality that are acting like a lynch mob.

James Marshall
48 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:13:28
You see this is the point – there aren't that many good managers out there that would want to come to Everton. If you sack a manager of a team in the bottom 3, you end up with Roy Hodgson.

I think a lot of people on here (with respect) fail to look at the reality of the bigger picture. "Oh just sack him!" They say, "Get rid" etc, "Bring in someone who knows what he's doing!" But who is that someone?

Unsworth is seemingly the choice of the fans, but isn't that just more small club thinking? Bring in one of our own! "Plucky little Everton" with Unsy 'doing a job' while we spend millions paying off Koeman, and look like a tinpot club at the same time.

We look like even bigger fools doing that in my opinion.

Don Alexander
49 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:40:51
Well said James McPherson, on every level.
Thomas Surgenor
50 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:46:29
James (#48).

Was it "small club" thinking when Barça promoted their reserve team manager (also one or their own with no first-team management experience)?? That reserve team manager was Pep.

James Marshall
51 Posted 19/09/2017 at 11:55:06
Thomas – Barça are a special case. They do that often, grooming their B team manager to become first team manager so that isn't a fair comparison. It's part of the Barça model.

You can cite singular instances to suit your agenda, but I asked for serious responses with good reason. No offence.

Kevin Tully
52 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:07:37
John (#46) – It's pointless speculating who would come to Everton if we were to offer them an absolute fortune. I am also not really up to date on who is the next Pep or Jose.

What I do know is, that if we were to offer any prospective new man one of the highest paid jobs in world football, most would be sitting at Finch Farm in a flash.

Martin Nicholls
53 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:25:34
Franny (#45) – can't have it both ways by saying choice of a new manager is the Board's responsibility whilst at the same time demanding that the Board listen to fans and sack the present manager!
Chris Jones [Burton]
54 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:26:07
Following-on from a number of posts by people questioning the tone of this thread, and in the interest of balance, here's the concluding paragraph of Sid Lowe's article re Koeman and Valencia, i.e. the one that people want to use to hang the man with.

"Koeman has hardly helped himself, but the real culprit is a club that's never at peace; the Dutchman walked into a viper's nest, where sporting directors and coaches are at each other's throats like a bunch of deranged emus; where, with honourable exceptions, fans are never satisfied; where president and shareholders are always at war, creating tension and instability. As Koeman boarded an empty bus on Wednesday night, the club handed out press communiqués saying there would be no formal celebration. No visit to the town council. No open-topped bus. No silly wigs. No offering to the virgin. And no one informing Koeman. Above all, no embracing of the one thing that could have brought the club together, revealing yet again what a miserable, self-destructive institution Valencia has become, one that's about to put a fourth manager in charge. If they go down many will wave goodbye, but many too will wave good riddance."

Just to be clear, that is saying anything other than Koeman is a "one-man wrecking ball" who damaged Valencia all by himself (implying he'll do the same here) the club was a "miserable, self-destructive institution".

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/apr/21/europeanfootball.sport

Steve Carse
55 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:27:23
James and others, the 'lynch mob' and their mentality you refer to are of course the 'mob' who travel in their thousands. If you did likewise you'd realise the anti-Koeman feeling is big and growing exponentially after every pathetic, shapeless performance (which is every game this season).

Loved that one from Paul about fans giving their manager 'no time to build'. What exactly is Koeman trying to build? Give me one characteristic of what you think he's trying to achieve.

After his 50 games at the helm I can't discern one. We've had over 20 seasons of patience with poor managers, just waiting that something be built, something we can feel excited about and proud of. The disappointment being felt at the moment is recognition that the man in charge simply hasn't got it. The 'mob' has it spot on.

Ian Hollingworth
56 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:27:41
Ronald Koeman, great footballer and a winner, a big name in football. That's what I thought and probably most Evertonians thought when we appointed him as manager.

I didn't do my homework, I didn't know this Valencia story but then I am not paid to. It frightens the life out of me that Everton FC did not and that it seems they appointed him on the opening statement that I thought he would do for me.

I can't see anything changing much with the current owners, this is still really Kenwright's toy with Moshiri bringing much needed business acumen but I don't think it will bring us the football success we all crave.


Carl Taylor
57 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:29:04
James @ 43, Koeman didn't want to come to Everton, that's why he stayed on holiday before giving an answer. It is almost the same as The Damned United scenario. Clough thought Brighton were beneath him, so went on his holiday hoping for a better offer. He got his better (or so it seemed) offer. Koeman didn't and then pushed for as much money as possible to bring his great talents to plucky little Everton.

I find the use of the terms such as 'lynch mob' and the like utterly disrespectful to those who have a different opinion to yourself.

As for the Arsenal reference above, we gave Moyes 4 season's too long, Martinez 1 season too long and now we are giving Koeman too long, in my opinion. Anyone else on here think Wenger hasn't been given too long at Arsenal?

As for the tin pot club references, I assume you mean Chelsea and all the tin pots they have won since we last won anything? That particular tin pot club have changed managers as soon as there is a hint of anything going wrong and they haven't done bad by it.

Finally, who next if/when Koeman goes? We have 2 generic choices. Go for another 'big game' football mercenary who has ability but no feeling for the club and will join for the right salary; or we go for an Unsworth/Ferguson type and give them a chance to prove themselves.

John G Davies
58 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:38:10
Kevin,

An analogy.

We need a centre forward. Let's offer one of the top class centre-forwards £160k a week. I haven't got a clue who he is but the money will talk.

It doesn't work like that mate.

Mike Green
59 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:41:31
James McPherson (#34) – take a bow, fantastic post.
Nicholas Ryan
60 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:47:29
I hate to say it; I really do hate to say it – but What about Rafa Benitez?!!
Steavey Buckley
61 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:48:48
12 goals conceded in the past 4 matches.

0 goals scored in these matches

Very few shots on target.

Only 2 goals scored so far in the premier league after 5 matches.

£130 million spent this season on transfers.

Sold the only goal scorer.

40,000 Everton fans can't be wrong, Everton are in a mess.

Iain Johnston
62 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:48:50
Couple of things for me...

How is Moshiri our new ambitious benefactor? What has he done which stands him apart from any top class business manager? Yes, he's given the club more commercial savvy but that could be tempered by the fact that all Premier League clubs are now far more attractive than they were 5 years ago. He's certainly not funding players nor will he be funding the stadium, the clubs increased turnover and sales are doing that.

Any new manager we could attract will want time to look at the squad so the issues of no wide men, no left-footed players to give us balance, no pace etc, etc would still remain until January at least.

For me, the only candidate out there who has a proven record, used to large sums, can handle ego's, is tactically aware and could possibly be prized away is Mancini at Zenit and install Unsworth as his assistant with the view of promoting him next.

Dennis Ng
63 Posted 19/09/2017 at 12:49:33
James (#34), sure, it is true that many are following that, but who is easier to replace? Moshiri or Koeman? I don't reckon Moshiri would fire Koeman yet but definitely would be keeping a close eye on the manner our team does over the next few games.

If we had close competitive games and lost by a single goal or two in the past 4, I'd bet less would have complained. The manner we lost and the body language are signs we're on thin ice. Next few games are must wins for him to keep his job.

Carl Taylor
64 Posted 19/09/2017 at 13:04:57
James @ 51. A classic example of some posters' arrogance and self importance. Thomas @ 50 gives you the example you requested and you dismiss it, with a "I'm right, you're wrong, no offence."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most people will differ in those opinions. So let's not belittle the opinion of other posters and just debate the future of our club.

I want Koeman out for the reason's I have state; you want to give him more time. I can live with that and do not wish to change your opinion to match mine (Ron is doing that for me in spades 😁).

What I can't understand is why you want everyone to agree with you and why you are so offended when people don't agree with you or challenge your reason for your opinion.

I for one hope we stuff Sunderland tomorrow and then Koeman leaves on a high, a bit like when Mike Walkers' Blues beat West Ham!

Kevin Tully
65 Posted 19/09/2017 at 13:12:52
John (#58) – It's not just about the money though, is it? It's partly about identifying someone who can progress the club. I'm not a football expert who may be able to do this, but I'm fairly sure if I was part of the Everton board, I would have identified someone who could deliver decent football for the salary and transfer budget we are offering.

So I am asking too much of the club here? Fuck it then. Let's all send our season tickets back.

Steve Barr
66 Posted 19/09/2017 at 13:33:48
Valencia aside, Everton is in dire straights and from where I'm sitting there has been nothing I can see that remotely resembles a hopeful future with the current regime.

Koeman has had plenty of time to at least develop a team showing some signs of a positive and winning style of play. The Man City game is the only decent performance I can recall since he took over.

We don't have pace, we don't have a goalscorer, we don't have left sided players, we don't have much of a team spirit and we don't have any leaders on the pitch.

Other than that I suppose we should give him another season or two!

Daniel A Johnson
67 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:09:31
I don't understand the complete fanatical over reaction on here.

Most of the above is just character assassination.

Over the last 10 season if you look at the fixtures for Spurs at home, Man Utd Away, Man City away and Chelsea away we would have a total of pretty much zero points. This fixture list has been the hardest start given to any premier league club since its inception.

This start has robbed us of any momentum and robbed us of our confidence. We have had nothing to build on and Atlanta away was always going to be a tough fixture. Not to mention the team just hasn't gelled yet.

Sure the lack of a striker and the number of chances created are a cause for concern but I will reserve judgement til we are 15 matches in and get a true representation of where we really are.

Let's save the Koeman bashing till then (if its needed at all).

David Barks
68 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:21:40
Daniel,

Thank you for reminding us to know our place. How dare Everton expect to go into matches against Man City and Man Utd and Spurs and have a go. You're right, from now on we should just send up a white flag and hand over the points before the season starts.

How dare we as Evertonians expect some semblance of footballing and attacking philosophy against Stoke, Split, Atalanta. You're right, we were always going to struggle against the mighty Atalanta.

Everton and its supporters need to learn our place and realize we are only here to make up the numbers and we will start holding a parade for each 7th place finish in the future.

It's not as if we were challenging Spurs for 4th-5th under Moyes and have sat by while they challenge for the league and Champions League while we get slaughtered by a second rate Italian club after scraping through against a third rate Croatian club. Thanks for the reminder of how little Everton is. Good man.

Paul Ward
69 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:25:05
Carl Taylor, Practice what you preach.

You post "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most people will differ in those opinions. So let's not belittle the opinion of other posters and just debate the future of our club."

1 Yet you also post "James @34, if you can hear me up there on the moral high ground, why don't you go and support Arsenal."

2 I find the use of the terms such as 'lynch mob' and the like utterly disrespectful to those who have a different opinion to yourself.

Maybe you don't like other posters' opinions.

John Keating
70 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:38:13
The RS draw 2-2 with Burnley at home and the Orcs are calling for Klippety's head.

We play dire football with no tactics. Hardly a shot on target, score a couple of goals. Ship 12 goals in one week. Yet some take positives out of a 4-0 defeat at United and want to give our manager God knows how long to turn it around.

Even Palace and Birmingham can see the writing on their walls. Then again we are too big a club to get ourselves in trouble aren't we?

Amit Vithlani
71 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:42:44
James @ 48 and 51

"Unsworth is seemingly the choice of the fans, but isn't that just more small club thinking? Bring in one of our own! Plucky little Everton with Unsy 'doing a job' while we spend millions paying off Koeman, and look like a tinpot club at the same time."

And

"Thomas - Barca are a special case. They do that often, grooming their B team manager to become first team manager so that isn't a fair comparison. It's part of the Barca model. You can cite singular instances to suit your agenda, but I asked for serious responses with good reason. No offence."

Examples:
1. Real Madrid - Zidane (Castilla). Rookie.
2. Spurs - Sherwood. Rookie.
3. Liverpool - Fagan, Paisley
4. Barca - as you acknowledge
5. AC Milan - Inzaghi. Rookie.
6. Rangers - 1990s hey day - Smith
7. AC Milan - Capello.

Etc etc.

There is no correlation between "big club / tinpot mentality" and appointing a reserve team coach. If he is the right man for the job he should be given a go.

The debate is whether Unsy is.

I say yes he is.

Franny Porter
72 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:43:48
Martin (#55) – first of all, at no point did I demandthe board listen to the fans and sack the present manager, I said that I would prefer Unsworth. So do me a favour and don't twist a post just to try and sound clever. Better not to post at all than to talk shite, mate.

Secondly, seeing as you stated it, that's ypu, not me, what would be wrong with saying listen to fans but ultimately its the boards decision on a new manager? Are you saying we should all just sit like good little boys and take watching this dirge every game?

I think its the fans duty to let the board know when we aren't happy; it's then the boards duty to do something about it. Is this unreasonable?

Pete Clarke
73 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:44:25
It looks to me with Koeman's tactics that we just give up 36 points by rolling over for the teams upstairs. That leaves us with 78 points to go for.

There is no way we take more than 60 points from the rest with the tactics and formations we play, so where will that leave us?

At the moment, I would snatch at 60 points but can anyone see it?? I see a defeat or two from our next four games and he will walk.

Steve Barr
74 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:48:05
Daniel,

In my opinion, Koeman rightly bears the brunt as he is the figurehead and responsible for the team. Gets well paid for it as well.

Most on here have pointed out all the shortcomings that have culminated in our current sorry state. Often calling out the club ownership and other mitigating circumstances in his defence.

Notwithstanding, he's had 50 plus games not 15, to give us long-suffering fans some hope to hang on to. He was also presumably brought in to reverse our poor performances against those so-called top 4 or 6 teams you rightly mention.

He's not delivered on any count after 50 plus games and understandably many on here rightly feel the need to vent.

The club's ownership (and the fans) have shown great loyalty and patience over the years in support of its managers. Often well beyond their sell by date.

That loyalty and patience has not been rewarded with any tangible success. Maybe its time for a new quick, ruthless approach to dealing with a clearly failing manager?

Tom Bowers
75 Posted 19/09/2017 at 14:49:30
We are all in agreement along with the brass that things have to change quickly and if that means Koeman going then so be it. He wouldn't be the first to get canned so quick but it's a ruthless market these days with so much money to be earned especially for the successful clubs.

Moyes had only one year at Man Utd. Koeman could have been over-rated by the Everton brass but better for them to admit their mistake now than next year waiting for a turnaround that doesn't come.

Amit Vithlani
76 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:00:15

James @ 34

"To those that like knee jerk, go and follow your model club Valencia – the revolving door, get him out, get another one in is all the rage there."

Why stop at Valencia? As it suited the "managerial revolving door argument?"

What about Spurs? And Chelsea? Kept sacking managers until they got one who actually did the business.

Here is the reverse of your example – David Moyes. 11 years and won fuck all.

Arsene Wenger. No title since 2004, 5th last season.


John Pierce
77 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:19:00
The righteous on this thread berating the mob! Ha.

Not one of the Koeman's defenders are defending him & his methods. Not one detail or morsel of what he has brought to the club. They're simply attacking the 'mob' for being short-sighted and mean! Bit snobby that.

For those who wish to denigrate the masses provide for me with actual positive constructive points which show tangible progress in Everton's football since he arrived?

Stop basing your pro-Koeman stance on a manager none of us (even you) like, and not just the war of attrition between personalities on the site.

-2 wins from our last 20 away games
-No attacking plan, please do show me a game
-Over reliance on one player; Lukaku. Look back at last season when he wasn't on it, Stoke, Wham, Bournemouth Burnley away to name a few yielded only 2pts!
-Any positive trending characteristics in his team play? Slick passing, counter attacking, players interchangeable?
-Name me a player who has improved significantly under his coaching?
-Consistently poor selections/formations which need addressing at HT.
-Using players in their wrong position until their confidence is shot.

It's not just a mob with a rabid desire to hound Koeman out, there is clear set of evidence against him over a significant time period.

Those who want him to stay to what end? 7th. That's were we should finish based on our resources.

Has Koeman in a top five league in Europe (Italy, Germany, England, France & Spain) ever finished higher than 6th?

What attributes does he have as a manager to get a par team above 7th? Name them? Style, innovative tactical solutions for beating different types of teams, man management skills, in game management? And even if they do exist, we've not seen them at Everton.

My vociferous and exasperated response is because their is no positive argument to keep him, just a negative one. I posted on another thread, Everton managers now have to learn to build the plane in the air. If you want to anything less than that level of ambition, then that's an Everton I don't recognise any more and perhaps you are behind the curve of change.

Jim Knightley
78 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:19:46
My patience is running out with Koeman – we've got clear issues in the squad, have less quality than the top six and are bedding in new players, but that doesn't excuse the extent of our shitness. The players are out of sorts and nervous; Koeman is clearly running out of ideas.

We don't seem to have brought with a clear tactical approach in mind. The results are not good enough but the performances are inexcusable – we've not put in a good one yet. I'd give him a few more weeks and appoint Unsworth on a temporary basis if there is not a clear change.

That said, we don't need decontectualised hatchet jobs. Valencia have had all manner of problems on the pitch and off the pitch; they've been a joke, and this article risks simplifying the context in an attempt to have a go at Koeman.

Let's not forget that Koeman had two highly successful seasons at Southampton, despite losing a string of essential players. He was the first recent Premier League manager to successfully move between wing backs and full backs – a tactic that has become a key component of this division now.

He showed himself to be progressive and he did manage 7th last season – after two years of bottom-half football. Let's not act like Moshiri handed a manager with no profile and recent success a job.

The question is whether he is right now; at the moment, he clearly isn't. Managers and teams go through bad spells – it may be something that will be fixed and improve with time and confidence. But I'm not confident; at the moment he, and our team, look scared.

Carl Taylor
79 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:21:13
Paul @ 69. You are right, I don't like some other people's posts but I don't try to tell other people what they should think. I give my view and people can take it or leave it. Sorry if I offended your or James's delicate sensibilities.
Kevin Tully
80 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:32:13
Steve Barr (#74),

You say: "The club's ownership (and the fans) have shown great loyalty and patience over the years in support of its managers. Often well beyond their sell by date. That loyalty and patience has not been rewarded with any tangible success. Maybe its time for a new quick, ruthless approach to dealing with a clearly failing manager?"

This is precisely the point. Sticking by managers has seen us treading water for years. Now we have a tangible choice, we should try a different approach.

What have we got to lose? A manager who openly states he's hoping for 7th after spending over £200m since he's been here?

Give me a break.

Daniel Lim
81 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:38:42
If we promote Unsy, we are small club mentality. If Barca promote their reserve manager, it's okay. The most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. And calling people 'mob'.
Steve Barr
82 Posted 19/09/2017 at 15:58:53
Kevin,

I've re-read my post and I think we are in agreement!

Jay Harris
83 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:15:43
"The thousand mile journey starts with the first step".

Despite all the carping, last season was a considerable improvement on the previous two seasons.

I personally saw a much more organised and effective team get us into Europe for the first time in years despite Koeman inheriting an aging, demoralized and disorganised unit.

We all want Everton to be back at the top table fighting for the title on level terms with the likes of City and Chelsea but lets get real we cannot expect 30 years of decline to be reversed with a wave of the wand. It will have to be progressive with everyone behind the team, the manager and the board and more than a little patience because we are talking revolution, not evolution.

You cannot reasonably expect us to lose our top goalscorer and not replace him and be even more successful immediately. Koeman is trying different formations to get us to the next window with damage limitation.

We are in the experimentation and settling in period for the number of new faces we got in. Let's show a little more patience and I'm sure by January, if things don't improve, the board will have to act.

Martin Nicholls
84 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:26:05
Some on here have used Wenger (as well as Moyes) as an example of why a club shouldn't stick with a manager for too long, citing the fact that Arsenal haven't won the Premier League since 2004.

That of course is true but with one exception they've qualified for CL every year since 2000-01 and for good measure have won FA Cup 3 times in last four years.

Without trying to limit our ambition, actually winning the Premier League is a very tall order so I'd be more than happy to settle for Wenger-like "failure"!

David Booth
85 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:36:22
What John (77), said!

A perfect summation of a manager who is floundering desperately, devoid of any plan, lacking in belief and who has had no encouraging impact or influence whatsoever.

This is consistently the worst, most clueless, hopeless, defeatist football I think I have seen from an Everton manager. He is as out of his depth as Mike Walker – after spending £200m to buy a complete new team.

Adam Luszniak
86 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:38:18
Thanks to Chris Jones (Burton) post 54, for bringing to light the fact that the OP cherry picked what he wanted to from Sid Lowe's article.
Brent Stephens
87 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:48:04
Yes, Chris, #54 - balance for honesty. The OP does cherry pic from that article to suit it's case.
James Hughes
88 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:53:47
Amit, you are on fire, sir, I am going back through the rest of the thread now...
Phillip Warrington
89 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:54:06
Give it to Unsworth until the end of the season, Koeman has lost the players' respect and is killing their confidence... but worse, he is destroying the young players at Everton.

Everybody who backs Koeman has to really stop and think: this is the Everton team he has created, this is his third transfer window and he is the one who has sent top young players out on loan to be replaced by has-beens – great incentive for those players to want to come back.

Then consider the breathtaking football Everton play; every top six team Everton have played absolutely destroyed Everton. The first game against an average Italian team and they should have won 6-, 7-, 8-0 – they had that many chances.

Then all we get from Koeman is that we should be realistic; we are never going to compete against the top teams... That alone should be enough to make sure this man never takes charge of another Everton match. Ask Leicester players, Did they think they could not compete against the top teams?

When Unsworth took over Everton, they played with passion and speed – what does Everton play like today?

Amit Vithlani
90 Posted 19/09/2017 at 16:56:29
"Some on here have used Wenger (as well as Moyes) as an example of why a club shouldn't stick with a manager for too long, citing the fact that Arsenal haven't won the Premier League since 2004. That of course is true but with one exception they've qualified for Champions League every year since 2000-01 and for good measure have won the FA Cup 3 times in last four years. Without trying to limit our ambition, actually winning the Premier League is a very tall order so I'd be more than happy to settle for Wenger-like "failure"!"

Yes, just like the fans of Leeds and Villa would have loved our 11th placed finishes under Martinez or the decade without trophies under Moyes.

Eddie Dunn
91 Posted 19/09/2017 at 17:03:14
I wonder if Koeman may eventually get it right?

Many top teams operate without a recognised number nine. The likes of Man City move their players around the park, probing at defences. Even at Arsenal the proper centre-forward, Giroud, sits it out on the bench watching the likes of Wellbeck and Sanchez, who often drift out wide. Indeed many modern strikers, even Harry Kane, who can play the targetman role, often drags defenders down the channels.

I know it looks like we are shoehorning players into roles unfamiliar to them, but perhaps nowadays these pros should be able to do it. Our wonderful Kevin Richardson and Alan Harper were guys that could do a job almost anywhere.

At Old Trafford, I saw Sigurdsson and Rooney start to develop some understanding and Davies marauded willingly off the frontman. We needed more "productivity", and the only key to it is these players gelling sooner than later to provided it.

Of course it hasn't happened yet, but we had the early Europa ties, some late transfer business, and the likes of Sigurdsson is still short of fitness due to his missing much of preseason. Players still need to bed in.

We really have to hold judgement until we see them play some of the teams we should be expected to beat. If we still come up short, then we will need to sack the manager. I still think Koeman may sort it out.

There is the makings of a strong spine to the team. We lack width and pace, but Sandro could provide the latter once up to speed and Bolasie and Coleman could give the former once fully fit.

Then there will be January in which the recruitment of a proper centre forward to give us an orthodox target to hit. All is not lost, not quite.

Steve Barr
92 Posted 19/09/2017 at 17:14:27
Eddie,

You're post has cheered me up a bit and given me a little hope.

Maybe you should apply for the job in the event Ron gets the boot!

James Hughes
93 Posted 19/09/2017 at 17:15:02
We should remember that we were the football university, so named School of Science. We are playing like dunces at the moment and we get to watch some of the worst football ever to (dis)grace Goodison.

There is current mitigation as so many new players are thrown into the melting pot at the same time. Even so, Koeman and his coaching staff need, quite quickly, to get the team display some sort of shape, tactics, balance etc.

This year it has been awful, shapeless, toothless football. It cannot go on much longer. If we are struggling and still in the last 6 places by the end of November, we will be in big trouble.

Christine Foster
94 Posted 19/09/2017 at 17:37:44
I have been probably one of the first to question Koeman's suitability for the job after seeing him dismantle the forward line, despite him not getting the striker he knew we needed and wanted, not his fault. But what is down to him, and him alone, is the tactics, the selection and style of play. It defies logic to have a team without any penetration or pace, or flair, especially when we have several players with those attributes, being shown the door, frozen out or just not wanted.

We may not have a centre-forward, but I remember Moyes using Cahill, I remember a certain Mike Lyons playing centre-forward... not great but we used what we had to the best advantage.

This is the fundamental problem of tactics and selection, arrogance and intransigence, he has failed to deliver an attacking formation of any description all season, every game. Even playing Calvert-Lewin (a kid who is a long way short of Giroud) we relied on him holding up a ball whilst our lack of pace midfield got up to play.

Not one player has shone this season. Not one. Tactics have been pragmatic but badly applied. Players exposed, no flair, no confidence, no choice.

But above all of this, it's the mans attitude off the pitch that worries me more than ever: quick to condemn players he wants to, getting his knife in when he can... man-management skills are looking worse daily.

Management is about winning. There to do a job and get the best out of players. He isn't doing that and shows no indication of changing either players or style. That is the mark of madness as, if we do not change, we will spiral. Lets face it, we can only fall two more places..

Management is about confidence. Giving players confidence to succeed, tactics, style and support. Man-management to get the best out of, not the best players, they should shine anyway, but the also-rans, making them feel invincible, brilliant... Ask Mirallas about that one, Barkley too, Deulofeu, Kenny... What about those we don't hear about?

He has failed big time in this respect on all fronts.

I do not believe he is the man for the job unless he addresses all of the above and I doubt he has the ability to do so.

If we leave it to Christmas, there is a real possibility that we will be so far behind it will be too late.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
95 Posted 19/09/2017 at 17:49:19
This has turned into a pretty lively thread, with some very interesting counterpoints, but a couple of posts cross the line for me.

James (#34) and Carl (#38) – please do not use this forum to tell any Evertonians they should go and support other clubs. Find some other way to make your point: supporting Everton is sacrosanct, for god's sake!

James McPherson
96 Posted 19/09/2017 at 18:01:47
Fair comment, Michael. I only cited Valencia as the OP used this as the basis for his concerns on Koeman. Carl, no offence taken.
Peter Laing
97 Posted 19/09/2017 at 18:36:40
One man, and one man only, will decide on the fate of Koeman and that man is Farhad Moshiri. Moshiri has previously gone on record and stated that, if Koeman does not perform to the desired level, he will have no hesitation in relieving him of his duties and find a new man. Key performance indicators aside – Koeman probably has the next four games to save his job.

To pay of his remaining contract would probably cost in the region of £10 million; on top of that the cost of paying off his coaches – another £5 million – small beer these days in the merry go round of modern day football.

My personal take is that we failed to drastically attend to the two key areas of the team that needed strengthening and that was Centre-Half and Centre-Forward. Shipping goals and not scoring and there is no surprise that we are on the end of regular hidings.

Moshiri will act there is no doubt about that. Koeman has four games – period.

James Marshall
98 Posted 19/09/2017 at 18:40:25
Am I right in saying that the same 4 fixtures last season resulted in only one less point than we have now?

Aside from the obvious flaws in our team, that stat kind of dilutes things a little bit, doesn't it?

If these fixtures were spread out a bit across the season, and not our first few games, things might not feel as terrible.

Just a thought.

Will Mabon
99 Posted 19/09/2017 at 18:43:56
Man City were the first and most obvious example. It's our turn now. The Billionaire Benefactor is not a guarantee of instant success. City's actually spent some money on the team, too.

Perhaps the essentially simple but endlessly random game of football is biting back. Its elements have been forgotten...

Eddie Dunn
100 Posted 19/09/2017 at 18:55:10
Steve Barr, glad to have cheered you up a bit! I was feeling pretty desolate myself but perhaps we will all get a little bit of a boost if we can put away EFC Lite (Sunderland) and then the Cherries.

I haven't thought of throwing my hat into the ring but, if Ron does get the push and I am successful, I will look favourably upon you for the assistant role.

Paul Ferry
101 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:03:36
Koeman – that's not what I am doing here – but something that suggests that Koeman was not a ‘one-man wrecking ball' and had to try to deal with deep-seated structural problems at Valencia that were not of his own making and indeed had damaged the club for a long while before he took up the reins.

After his revelations about Koeman at Valencia, Sid writes this:

"Koeman has hardly helped himself, but the real culprit is a club that's never at peace; the Dutchman walked into a viper's nest, where sporting directors and coaches are at each other's throats like a bunch of deranged emus; where, with honourable exceptions, fans are never satisfied; where president and shareholders are always at war, creating tension and instability. As Koeman boarded an empty bus on Wednesday night, the club handed out press communiqués saying there would be no formal celebration. No visit to the town council. No open-topped bus. No silly wigs. No offering to the virgin. And no one informing Koeman. Above all, no embracing of the one thing that could have brought the club together, revealing yet again what a miserable, self-destructive institution Valencia has become, one that's about to put a fourth manager in charge. If they go down many will wave goodbye, but many too will wave good riddance'."/p>

I'll repeat that just in case any of you on here who seem to have gleefully pounced on Brian's umbalanced article for more string-Ron-up fuel: the ‘real culprit' was the club.

I would rather take Sid's views of Valencia and its operations on any day of the week than listen to the same-old-same-old one-dimensional venomous vitriol about Koeman from the same old people.

I write not in defence of Koeman. I wouldn't blink an eyelid if he got the sack today. Although I would be very worried. I write because as someone – who sees all the faults and flaws in koeman and longs for constructive comments and solutions – who is sick to death of the jaw-dropping mind-boggling one-way mud-slinging embarrassing excess that soils the column inches of a sight that deserves better.

The title of this article is embarrassing. It reveals that we are about to read yet another bit of the jaw-dropping mind-boggling one-way mud-slinging embarrassing excess aimed at the manager.

All I want is fair-minded balance. The sort of fair-minded balance that someone like me can offer for why Koeman must lose his job if he does not make things better.

‘One-man wrecking ball'! I think I'm getting too old to LOL but I'll LOL anyway.

Have I got enough fingers to count these things?

Walsh. Kenwright. Moshiri. Lads letting the side and us down. No leadership on the pitch, especially at the back. A reluctance to spend significantly more than we took in that could have made a difference. And there is more but I want to keep this post short.

I come not to defend Koeman but to ask that his critics act with the same decent constructive fair-mindedness that ironically they habitually say they don't see in pig-headed warped Ronny.

John G Davies
102 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:05:20
Kevin, I agree when you say it's just not about the money. That was my point.

You said earlier in the thread we can buy a top class manager, this one gets £6M a year, let's give someone £8M a year. I pointed out it's not as simple as that.

I understand and share your frustration, Kevin, believe me.

Darren Hind
103 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:11:07
James McPherson @34

Thank you very much. Your post quite literally made me laugh out loud. I didn't think it was possible to be so wrong with a such a short post.

Let's address the first porkie: "As for Darren Hind, are we really applying time and thought to a "fan" that says his decision to sack Koeman was made after 6 games – Really?"

Well, you are clearly applying the time, but you seem to be giving thought a wide berth.

What you really should have been asking is "Will you guys give time and thought to my not-very-subtle slight of hand as I try to pass off my ridiculous accusation as fact?" Check my post, fella. I did not say I was calling for him to be sacked, I simply stated that I knew he was going to be ultra cautious... see the difference? It's a really significant one. It's still up there if you want to dispute it.

Then you round on the "Mob mentality" on here which is "destabilising the club" ... Incredible! So opinion on ToffeeWeb is destabilising the club? Really? Have you got any idea how ridiculous that actually sounds?

In his OP, Brian puts up a number of points. I'm guessing he expected some people to contest them... but not you. You decide to have a go at people making the points simply because you are not able to contest them – a common ploy on here, but it hasn't worked for others and it wont work for you.

You later come back to claim you are calling out the people who are using the "c-word" to describe our manager... I'm sorry but I don't see these people either. Who are you talking about? Who is it you are "calling out"?

And just to put you right about me saying "I told you so" – Sorry, me old china plate, but this is another straw man argument. I made no predictions or forecasts so I'm not in a position to say "I told you" so to anybody.

My complaint is, and has been for a long time, that we play turgid inept pug-ugly football... and as far as I'm concerned that cannot be reasonably contested.

I don't claim to have a crystal ball, I was merely stating the blindingly fucking obvious when I was criticising the football played under this guy and I make no apologies for doing so. If you want to claim otherwise, go right ahead. Knock yourself out.

Rather than come on here swinging haymakers at people who want a better manager and future for our club, why not listen to what they are saying? If you have a counter argument, let's hear it. By simply attacking people because you don't like what they are saying, you come across as an oversensitive little soul with his fingers stuck in his ears shouting "La la la la..."

James McPherson
104 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:32:59
Darren, I can't comment on your post. I did not bother reading it, as having read several of your previous contributions, I know you want Koeman out. Further, you want him out immediately. That's your prerogative.

I take a more pragmatic view and look at things in a wider context. I merely suggested that Koeman be afforded more time. That's my prerogative. We clearly have little time for one another and how we respectively position our view, so best keep it civil and move on.

John Daley
105 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:37:25
"The knock-on effect of Koeman's disastrous reign still continues to have a lasting effect on the once-great club".

Fuck me, he was only in charge for 22 games, wasn't he? How can a failure on Valencia's part, to work their way back to a previously lofty position, be traced directly back to one manager performing shite for part of a solitary season soon to be a decade ago?

I'm familiar with the story of Koeman's time at Valencia and, of course, it can always be pointed to as having parallels with the current situation, if you approach it from that perspective to begin with. No matter how many times I hear it though, I still wait with bated breath for that bit where Charlton Heston starts beating the ground and screaming "You maniac! You blew it up! Damn you!! Damn you to hell, Ronnnn!!!".

People talk like everything was spectacularly rosy and harmonious at Valencia before Koeman strolled into this veritable vision of success, had a look around his new domain, rolled his undercrackers down his legs, took a dump in his hand, held it aloft and said "Hey, let's redecorate". That wasn't the case at all.

Two days before Koeman was to be announced as manager, his soon to be new team were thrashed 5-1 by Real Madrid in a game where the players visibly gave up, dropping them down to 5th in the table before he had even taken his seat. They were already bottom of their Champions League group by that point, having picked up three points from three matches. Supporters had been complaining about the team's dour style of play before the season had even started.

Although it had only been three short years since Valencia enjoyed the most successful spell in their history... scooping the league, Super Cup and Uefa Cup...it seemed to casual observers that, for the most part, the club had spent the period since stumbling around all over the place, looking very pretty from afar, but stinking vaguely of cat pish the closer you ventured in.

After Rafa ran off to the red shite, a string of expensive signings/flops, four different managers, four different sporting directors and fuck-all trophies, followed. All at the behest of a batshit crazy club President with an itchier trigger finger than Charles Bronson anticipating an intense confrontation with an acne-gridded teen gobshite trying to show off in front of a sentient gut with stubby limbs and a semi-gozzy eye he gallantly calls his 'girlfriend'...by acting the twat outside a 24-hr Shell garage...on a school night: naughty Juan Soler. (Soler was actually charged in a Spanish court with conspiring to kidnap Vicente Soriano, the bloke who suceeded him as the big boss at the Mestalla. He was also the man who thought it made sound financial sense to saddle the club with more and more debt and the millstone of two grounds: one they couldn't finish and another they couldn't fucking sell.)

It's easy to point the finger and say 'Koeman lost the dressing room at Valencia. He's defo a vanity driven bell', but maybe there was more to it than him steaming in like a bull in a China shop and looking to stamp his authority on the place simply because that's basically his 'shtick'.

The players at Valencia, at that time, had previous for pulling a 'Kevin and Perry' on club personnel, getting in a strop and stamping their feet to swing Soler's thinking their way.

One of the main reasons Koeman's predecessor, Quique Sánchez Flores, was said to have been given his marching orders was because he himself had 'lost the dressing room'. How had he managed to do so? By allying with his players against ex Sporting Director, Amadeo Carboni, when he too pissed them off and ruffled feathers in 'the dressing room'. The deal Quique was forced to strike with Soler in order to get rid of Carboni, resulted in three members of his coaching staff being sent packing. The players saw this as a betrayal and evidence of Quique being an easy-to-back-down quilt. Having chased off Carboni, the players switched their ire to the manager, began to challenge his authority (senior players openly complaining about the quality of his signings etc) and, quick to scent blood, Soler was soon swinging his axe to their tune once again.

That was the madhouse Koeman hitched up at and his first... and most fatal... mistake was immediately trying to wrest control back from the inmates. Fatal for Ron's reign at least, but just because it did for him in the end doesn't mean he was automatically wrong in trying to discard those he believed to be disruptive elements.

Many managers would likely have done the same but simply looked to go about in a more Machiavellian manner, rather than meandering in like Herman Munster in his size fucking massives. Subtlety seems a complete stranger to Koeman though, a man with the poker face of some soft twat wearing mirrored sunglasses to the table.

After the recent run of piss poor performances the less impressive half of Ron's decidedly hit and miss CV is (understandably, I suppose) the section concerned supporters are likely to gravitate to. However, although poor spells at Benfica, Valencia and Alkmaar beat down his reputation, and any achievements at Ajax and PSV are generally passed over, let's not forget Koeman did go some way toward redeeming himself with the double success of decent stints at Feyenoord and Southampton.

Although far from a fan of his methods and mannerisms myself, he's far from the hapless fuckwit many have made him out to be over the last couple of days.

Martin Nicholls
106 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:43:05
Amit (#90) – they would indeed but I'm not sure what your point is in linking that observation to my post.

For clarity, I am no apologist for Koeman but was simply pointing out that Arsenal in my view are a good example of the wisdom of sticking with a manager. That to my recollection is precisely what Leeds and Villa did not do so as I say, I'm not sure of the relevance of your comments in relation to my post.

Darren Hind
107 Posted 19/09/2017 at 19:55:03
Of course you didn't read it, James

Otherwise you'd have been on here to try to justify some of the stuff you made up in post 34 with a whole list of counter arguments against criticism of the manager.

Don Alexander
108 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:01:03
Will (#99), to compare the wealth of Man City's owners to Mr Moshiri does him a serious injustice and is liable to inflame the expectations of all fans. I'm happy he's with us but he's by no means close to the wealth of nearly all the club owners above us in the Premier League and more than a few other owners match and exceed his wealth too.

In that context, we're not a "wealthy" club in the fantasy world of professional football in this country and that's one reason why paying Koeman off will be well down his list of priorities, I suggest. A run of shite results 'til Crimbo might result in a re-write however!


Mike Green
109 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:01:54
John Daley (#105) – a cracker.

I am often guilty of making black and white statements, which is a failing of mine but helps me appreciate people who can add colour to the debate to illustrate the truth.

Your post and James's (#34) prove the point that the narrative here isn't as simple as some would like it to be i.e. pointing at Koeman and shouting "Him! Him! Him!" like we're at a Monty Python stoning. Kudos. Both excellent contributions.

John G Davies
110 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:02:08
John (#105).

Good post.

People have their own opinions and are fully entitled to them. It's when they start fabrication to enhance their point that they lose their credibility.

Always best to stick to the facts.

Brent Stephens
111 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:06:55
#105 – a further post to add balance to the discussion.
Don Alexander
112 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:10:01
And Darren, me old crackers-crockery (#103), you coming to the defence of TW posters you contend have been baselessly attacked by AN Other takes self-absorbed absurdity to another level. Well done!
Darren Hind
113 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:14:30
Don

The guy was called out for telling porkies. He was given a chance to refute that claim, but given the post is still up there he took the sensible route and left it alone.

You, on the other hand...

Andy Crooks
114 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:15:14
I have never described Koeman's critics as a mob. When I critisized Moyes, which I did, often, I was part of the Moyes Out Brigade. I thought it was unfair then so it is not a term I will ever use.

No-one on here, absolutely no-one thinks that Koeman is doing a good job. When the admirable Jim Knightley expresses doubts then it is a sign on the barometer that there are worrying times ahead.

Darren Hind, I am not blind to the shite and I do see the damage. I think your views are pertinent and I have never dismissed them. But, he is not going to be sacked and you know that as well as me.

Also, I do not think that you take any pleasure in saying "I told you so". I think, though, that you are looking for every weapon to hit him with. Yes, I did it with Moyes but it is fundamentally unfair.

He is not a fucking wrecking ball, a, by the way, an utterly preposterous title. If he were sacked tomorrow, I would be fine with it, but there is some disingenuous bile on here which is unfair and appalling.

Dermot Byrne
115 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:23:26
Darren, you are smart; you remind me if Boris Johnson a bit. You seem to whip up others (those who agree and disagree with you) and then deny ever trying to do that. Wonder why that happens....
John G Davies
116 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:26:38
Because he is an agitator, Dermot?

Boris that is. Can't speak for Darren.

Darren Hind
117 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:28:01
Andy,

Yep, you are right. but if Koeman was to change tack completely and start playing adventurous attacking football with passion, you would not hear a peep from me... Do you see him changing?

I'm not one of these people who think calling for more of the same is somehow a "positive".

The positive person turns away when he is repeatedly booted in the balls. The fool will stand his ground to see how much pain he can stand.

Dermot Byrne
118 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:28:05
Ummm. Maybe I was unfair on that comparison.
Amit Vithlani
119 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:46:18
Martin @ 106

"...but was simply pointing out that Arsenal in my view are a good example of the wisdom of sticking with a manager."

Significant sections of the Arsenal fan base and a clutch of ex players want Wenger gone and do not see any wisdom in sticking by him.

They say Chelsea have sacked 3 title winning managers (Mourinho twice, Ancelotti once) and a European Cup winner in Di Matteo, whilst the Gunners have stood by their man. Chelsea's strategy trumps Arsenal's in terms of trophies won since 2004.

This is a counter point to the "revolving door" example of Valencia.

To your comment @ 84, Evertonians would be happy with 3 FA Cups in a row, as we support a team that has not won a trophy since 1995. So we look on slightly bemused as Wenger is kopping flak.

Similiarly, Villa and Leeds fans would have taken our recent league finishes, even though it cost Martinez his job, and also the job Moyes did for us – yet many of us would never want him back.

Mike Green
120 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:50:51
Andy (#114) – I think the next 5 games are critical for Koeman now, if we were to lose all 5 of them, I think he would undoubtedly be sacked. The question is where on the sliding scale between winning all 5 and losing all 5 does the axe stop?

If we lose 3, and one of them is Limassol, I think that would probably be the watershed. I for one hope we don't see it and tomorrow night is the return to winning ways.

Ed Fitzgerald
121 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:52:06
John Davies,

Just out of interest and your declaration for some facts about performance. I consulted Everton Football Club, the Official Record compiled and written by Steve Johnson who knows a thing a two about statistics and Everton.

I just totted Ron's figures up using Steve's methodology and at the moment his ranking places him just behind Gordon Lee and ahead of Billy Bingham. Argue with Steve about the methodology if you want? - it is the official record though.

Another indisputable fact is that bar a Barkley/Lukaku inspired 6-3 win against Bournemouth and the 4-0 drubbing of Man City – we are absolute shite to watch.

Another fact is the club has spent around £177 million supporting him since he became manager 18 months ago.

Dermot Byrne
122 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:54:18
Ed... opinion sandwiched between 'facts'?
Geoff Lambert
123 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:54:34
Darren (#103)

What gives you the right to call pugs ugly?

I and lots of other people on here think they are cute!!

Get a grip, man!!

Andy Crooks
124 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:57:12
Mike, good post. I don't think he could survive losing all five; though with Kenwright, one never knows.

I think you have raised a good point. What would be acceptable over the next five games? What would be good enough? Darren, over to you.

Kevin Tully
125 Posted 19/09/2017 at 20:57:40
I would genuinely like someone to explain to me how things will change under the present manager? I've watched how this strikerless side set out to play, and I personally just don't see anyone who can stretch a defence or beat a couple of defenders with dribbling ability.

What I have witnessed so far, is isolated forwards who are up against two or three defenders, or a packed midfield who aimlessly pass it across the middle.

It's even worse than the days of Andy Johnson, or Louis Saha chasing hoofs that have ran out of play.

Never thought another manager could be as 'basic' as old Davey. This shite is even worse. Please explain what the thinking is behind our 'style', because I can't fathom it out after 50-odd games? I've watched every other side in the Premier League this season – even Palace look better!

James Marshall
126 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:00:19
Win 2 league games, draw 1, beat Sunderland and Limassol. I reckon that should be good enough.
Tony Hill
127 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:00:48
I don't see how Koeman is immune from being sacked in the foreseeable future. If we lose or perform badly in coming games and remain in the relegation zone, then even our Board would surely be negligent to just sit and do nothing.

This league is vicious and if you lose ground then you may well never get it back because you can be caught in quicksand. That is especially dangerous for a club like ours which has no recent history of scrapping for survival and which has current players who look ripe to fold under pressure. Our incapacity to score goals will also be a massive deficit in struggle (though I do not lay blame for that solely at Koeman's door).

I have said on here before that the spectre of Aston VIlla (and other fine clubs with great support who have collapsed) haunts me. That is why any benefit of the doubt must be exercised against Koeman. I would have got rid of him already but the case will be overwhelming if we balls it up against Bournemouth and Burnley.

Too many on here seem to think that we are entitled to set arbitrary deadlines for Koeman to perform. The rest of the league won't be watching.

John Pierce
128 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:05:04
Next four games Everton expect to win, so 4 wins it must be.

When you put in those terms, so stark, then the decision is already made, why the stay of execution?

Because then even if he wins all four he's always 2/3 defeats from the sack.

Winning won't save us from the tripe he serves up. A band-aid..., moreover, an analgesic to numb us from the pain.

John G Davies
129 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:05:25
Ed (#121),

Where did I make a declaration for "some facts about performance"?

James Marshall
130 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:07:50
Sacking the manager still leaves us short of a striker. It feels like that is being overlooked a bit on here.
Colin Glassar
131 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:16:43
Not trying to defend Ronald but John Daley's post was spot on. Valencia was a basket-case after the FSW left and with a nutcase owner not even the A-Team could've sorted that mess out.

The same goes for De Boer at Inter. That was also an impossible job until the new owners took over.

Andy Crooks
132 Posted 19/09/2017 at 21:19:51
John,

"Winning won't save us from the tripe he serves up."

By fuck, your views are pretty entrenched. How many wins would it take? Four? Forty? If we won our next four games, by whatever means, I will be a happy Evertonian.

Don Alexander
133 Posted 19/09/2017 at 22:18:11
All of us agree that we're massively lacking in attacking personnel and those responsible therefore deserve the sack, in my opinion. I can't recall any team playing attractive winning football without the basics the manager rightly and publicly required before the season even began, but some seem to think this massive failure that stinks the place out was Koeman's fault alone.

Er, any actual evidence of that folks?

To use a baking analogy; how the hell can you bake a proper loaf when the yeast has been taken from your otherwise untested ingredients in the first place? Nobody can do it because you can only end up with either a blob of stodge or a very thin hard-baked cracker, each of which is completely unpalatable, and that's what we're being force-fed.

But let's blame the baker alone, eh, not the dickhead(s) who bollocksed it before kick-off.

John Pierce
134 Posted 20/09/2017 at 01:32:42
Don, he still played shitty footy when he had a 25-goal-a season striker. Had we played better footy, the lad might have had 35.

So the failure to get a centre-forward is moot. He has several forwards and hasn't even tried to reinvent a way to play without that focal point.

In fact, he's played like he still has Lukaku and is scratching his head why it won't work.

Bottom line; tactically inept, very hard to watch. Shove off Ron lad.

Andy Dempsey
135 Posted 20/09/2017 at 03:29:23
It's true. Koeman didn't create the shitstorm that is Valencia, but he certainly added to it.

A terrible appointment, because he's not a very good manager. Did nothing to warm himself to fans or players. I don't care about that though, I don't care if Brian writes a slightly demented, unfair-minded assessment of big K (fairness and accuracy? This isn't proper journalism – it's a forum) it's the feeling that matters.

We're all feeling the same thing, based on the 50 odd games we've had to sit through. It's shite. It's not getting any better. He'll bend over to all the supposedly superior opponents – so there'll be no derby win (the one thing I think can save him).

The blame lies with the manager. That's how football works. Sack him.

If we'd bought Llorente, or Belotti, or that lad that played for Atalanta the other night (looked half decent) or Aguero, or fucking Batistuta! The tactics would still be the same. It's fucking God awful to watch.

Brian Murray
136 Posted 20/09/2017 at 03:52:05
I hope we stay in the cup tonight especially with Liverpool knocked out. It's with a heavy heart that it's best if we fail v Burnley and Bournemouth to get rid of this clueless arrogant man. But will the board act?

Kenwright is I said still a very, very dangerous person to have in the background and obviously Moshiri still listens to whatever emotional crap he spouts. Please don't waste yet another 3 years... act now: get Rhino in until Tuchel etc can be got.
John G Davies
137 Posted 20/09/2017 at 06:21:35
Another Evertonian hoping we get beat in our next two league games.
Can't understand that. A disgrace.
Paul Ward
138 Posted 20/09/2017 at 07:16:33
To sack Koeman now would be extremely hard for any new manager to take over and be successful.

It is very unlikely the club could find an unattached quality manager at the drop of a hat, so Rhino is certain to be called upon as a caretaker. This would be very unfair to Unsworth and could jeopardise his future prospects as top manager. We would be asking him to take over a group of players not bedded in as a team yet with no centre-forward and no hope of new players until January.

As a reluctant advocate of giving Koeman until Christmas to improve I feel the transition to new management would also have the backup of the January window.

This would obviously depend on how much ground we had lost until then..

Nitesh Kanchan
139 Posted 20/09/2017 at 07:17:56
Colin, he had Silva, Villa, and Mata all in their prime form, that in itself should guarantee top 5 finish considering how weak the bottom ten La Liga teams are.

It is after these 3 left that they struggled. I am an Atletico supporter as well, they had to sell their best players every year like we did with Aguero, Falcao, and Costa because of financial problems and players wanting to leave as Real and Barca have their bench as good as other team players to compete with them for La Liga.

The major factor for that was TV money, the majority of which was taken by Real and Barca. There was a huge difference in that one until this year. It is still huge but not monstrous as it was before. It was peanuts compared to what even bottom Premier League clubs earned.

It is only last season that some more TV money has come in but TV money for Premier League clubs have skyrocketed. Eibar got to stay in La Liga despite relegation as Elche got relegated due to unpaid debts. Bankruptcy and many cases of unpaid salaries for months to the players were reported many times over the years in many clubs in La Liga.

Then Peter Lim came in 2015 with all false promises of investments. I can go on, but that is past and the real matter is Everton.

I never followed what he did elsewhere and I never watched Saints games except a few, when Pochettino was playing his high pressing game, which was delightful to watch with them.

But the real matter is now: What he is doing? He looks as clueless as he was at Valencia, at least signs look similar to me and not wanting to learn and change is the biggest problem we are facing right now.

He is making that £150 million which we had for the first time, since me following the team, an absolute waste and which probably we won't have in the future, even half of that, unless we have a player like Lukaku to sell.

Yes, it is difficult this season to compete with the Manchester clubs for the title, which I think was a missed opportunity when they were struggling in Europe; now we are in the phase where top Premier League clubs will dominate again like they used to during 2005-10. Leicester took that opportunity and won it.

But top 4 is still possible with Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool struggling and with £150 million of players we bought. But the clueless one, Koeman is easily surrendering to these teams without any fight and some fans accepting it.

From what I saw, it could have easily been 7-0 in all previous four games, even Atalanta, had they not taken their foot off to conserve energy and finished off the easy chances, which no club in their right mind would have accepted.

The mentality of the fans needs to change and if we don't pressurize Koeman, he will not feel the pressure at all and go golfing – even on match days. He is just admitting something is wrong but not correcting it. I would say to him, "In the next 4 games, show us something new and I will back you or get lost."

Even Chelsea fans boo their players when 3-0 down against Burnley and Real Madrid their best players when they are not performing, then why should we accept such inept performances, as if it is okay to lose easily to so-called big clubs?

Rob Hooton
140 Posted 20/09/2017 at 07:26:37
Some great arguments from both sides and very amusing reading!

The football has indeed been awful for the last season or so, when was the last time we won away in the league?

Not sure if this is true but my brother said we have had more yellow cards than shots on goal so far this season? Would be hilarious if not so tragic.

Brian Murray
141 Posted 20/09/2017 at 07:45:49
Jose or Pep could take over tomorrow and I honestly believe the inept mentality that runs deep through the club wouldn't change a bit.

Have a guess why, Bill? A very very dangerous man in the background making sure we act like Bolton Wanderers.

Martin Mason
142 Posted 20/09/2017 at 07:52:25
James @34

All fair comment and a very valid alternative viewpoint.

Darren Hind
143 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:02:39
John Pierce @134 – Bang on the money

Don's ridiculous baking analogy is a simple ploy to deflect from the mouldy old dough his hero served up for 95% of last season.

With or without a centre-forward, Koeman has demonstrated a rare cowardice throughout his time here.

The "knee-jerk reaction" claims kill me; the guy has presided over 50 games, most of which have reached levels of unprecedented dross. If he performed like that for a top four club, He would have left as if he was being fired from a catapult.

Like others, Don is simply embarrassed. He realises that he has failed to see the blindingly obvious and now he simply doesn't know how to stop digging.

Raymond Fox
144 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:12:19
I want Koeman gone, for the many reasons that have been covered in this thread and many others.

There has been one or two references that Moshiri will decide the fate of Koeman. I think that is not strictly true; he has less than 50% of the club and people are forgetting the owners that hold the other 50%+.

Now how the club is run behind the scenes and who calls the shots is not common knowledge, we are in the dark as usual and Moshiri might well have the consent of the others to make the big decisions but that's not a forgone conclusion .

Oliver Molloy
145 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:26:35
Raymond,

Moshiri hired him and Moshiri will fire him if this bad run continues and his reputation is at stake. Billionaires don't like to admit they got it wrong and Koeman will get time to sort the team out.Of course, these next two, three games will play a huge part in what's ahead in my opinion.

Moshiri's feet are firmly in the door at Everton and he calls the shots more and more – how do you think Koeman got here in the first place.


Will Mabon
147 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:39:47
Don @ 108:

Most of my (long) post at 99 disappeared as I loaded it for some reason, so I deleted. You obviously saw it but the context was lost and I didn't have the time to rewrite it.

Don Alexander
148 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:40:12
Darren, Koeman is not my hero. That's another invention of yours because you will not find me extolling his management virtues in any post I've ever written.

Playing as if he still has Lukaku may be a valid point but I suggest we signed the players we signed to feed and play off a proper centre-forward. If so it only emphasises the basic point we all, even you, agree on; it's all but impossible for him (or anyone else I'd suggest) to deliver attacking, productive football when you're without an accomplished centre-forward.

It'd be like wellying the manager for conceding too many goals when he's forced to play a team with goalies that can't dive, catch or punch due to a colossal cock-up in not signing any of quality.

If it's Koeman's fault, sack him though. Whoever it is/was deserves it on behalf of the club and its long-suffering fans as we begin the second year of Koeman managing what's been made available to him, which is not what he publicly and repeatedly specified he needed and, from what he said, was virtually promised. The signings that arrived early-doors support the notion that such a promise was made, but who amongst the fans truly knows?

As a fan, I hope and expect performances improve immediately though. By any measure, the Premier League games until 2018 are all more winnable than all but one we've had thus far.

Don Alexander
149 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:44:35
Thanks, Will (#147).
Paul Tran
150 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:51:38
Don, he's bought good players, players who are capable of creating chances and scoring, players who led at their previous clubs. They're not doing any of these things here, which suggests to me there's a disconnect between manager and players. That's the evidence that interests me, the stuff I can see with my eyes.

Good players need simple effective messages/tactics. Then they'll go out and execute them. We need somebody who can do that quickly and effectively. Haven't seen any of that from Koeman yet. He can start tonight, if he's able.

Darren Hind
151 Posted 20/09/2017 at 08:55:17
Don

Koeman is your hero. You have spent most of his time here praising and defending him. You have rounded upon people who criticised him – and as usual were unable to offer counter argument.

The reason you are calling for more time is clear. You think we have four very winnable games coming up and if results improve you will be back to the foolish nonsense we kept hearing at the start of the season ("five games unbeaten"... "another clean sheet")

Koeman has shown repeatedly that he is not up to mixing with the big boys and even if we get a few decent results against poorer, lesser teams that fact will remain.

By repeatedly calling for more time you are not thinking of the good of the club, you are simply seeking to save face... IMO

John G Davies
153 Posted 20/09/2017 at 09:38:03
His team will benefit from the return of Bolasie, Coleman and the signing of a forward with pace.

We have intelligent players with the vision to hit the passes into speed merchants. Pace is the key to this side working.

Brian Porter
154 Posted 20/09/2017 at 09:51:38
Well, my original post has certainly stirred up some lively debate. I feel it only right to reply to one or two points that have been raised.

First of all, that I 'cherry picked' the extracts I used from the original article about Koeman's time at Valencia. Yes, of course I did, because the post was not about the political in-fighting or boardroom battles or anything else to do with the running of Valencia Football Club, but was about the similarities in management styles between Koeman then and Koeman now. No matter what turmoil existed behind the scenes at Valencia when he took over, the fact of the matter is that none of that had anything to do with Koeman's brand of man management or tactical know how.

As for the point someone made about disbelief that the players ditched his tactics and won the cup, only to return to them and be thrashed in their next match, those comments were made not by me, but by a member of the Valencia team, so please feel free to believe or disbelieve that information.

Koeman must have known about the background to the job when he accepted the job, yet, instead of trying to bring at least a degree of stability to the playing side of the club, he went in heavy-handed and alienated the playing staff from the beginning. Again, I didn't make it up, the facts exist for all to see.

In my opinion, a good manager, seeing the behind the scenes problems of the club, could have gone in there and done all he could to get the players behind him and yet, and again the facts speak for themselves, the team under his management went from fifth place in La Liga when he took over, to being two points outside the relegation zone by the time he was sacked. His job was to run the playing side of the club, not sort out their internal wrangles, so that's why I didn't think those were relevant to my post, or to Ronald Koeman's managerial attributes.

I take nothing away from his achievements in the Dutch league, except to say, as some have used as a stick to beat poor Davy Klaassen, the Dutch league can't really be compared with the Premier League in terms of skill, physicality, and intensity. I respect everyone's right to have their own opinions but the facts relating to Koeman's management style, man-management and tactics are there on record for all to see.

Despite what was taking place off the pitch and in the boardroom could and should have had no bearing on his management of the playing staff.

Have a great day everyone and here's hoping for a big win tonight.

Don't get me wrong. I would have been delighted to see him successful as our manager but I just can't help feeling we are going to see much worse before things improve.

COYB

John G Davies
156 Posted 20/09/2017 at 09:58:40

😁
Unbelievable Jeff.
Don Alexander
157 Posted 20/09/2017 at 10:14:41
Brian (#154), thanks for that and the lead post too.

I guess it might be that Koeman has an "old-school" mentality when it comes to inter-action with players. Knowing nothing about the behind-the-scenes situation at Valencia, I just think it's all too easy to blame the manager alone for failure. There was considerable evidence that all was not well in any way at the club when he got there, on any level, including the dressing room.

I have long had big doubts about the "heart" of the players he inherited off Martinez. He's got rid of many though, and that gives me hope, but some remain. In my opinion only Seamus performs as a hard-nosed pro.

Sad to say, I don't think Jags or Baines now cut it and despite the Koeman signings we're still not the strongest at the back. In fairness he said so, repeatedly, and we also failed to sign the left-back and centre-back he said he wanted in the summer, as well as a centre-forward.

I wasn't happy he said 7th will be acceptable. I think he has to improve on that finishing spot with what he has right now but if the club truly want to make inroads to the Champions League qualification spots by the end of next season they really do need to get a centre-forward left-back and centre-back as soon as possible, because it will take time for them to gel and performances are generally less than the sum of the squad's parts until gelling happens.

Despite the mutterings from some at Southampton it can't be denied that Koeman got them playing as well as they ever have with massively different squads in two consecutive seasons. I suggest the difference was that the club provided him with talent in every part of the field, unlike us.

James McPherson
158 Posted 20/09/2017 at 10:34:45
The premise to the original post was that the grounds for Koeman's departure from Valencia were being mirrored at EFC. As such, Koeman should be dismissed immediately.

Looking at the contributions that have followed, not one person disputes that Koeman is under-performing, needs to improve quickly, and should he not, then dismissal is a justifiable step. The argument therefore centres upon the timing.Where things have intensified on this thread is the basis for that argument. Citing Valencia as the salutary warning was, in my (and others) mind, misguided and did not nothing more than distort the facts and misrepresented the reality.

There's also a different view on "knee jerk " - some saying that he's 50 games in, so that's not the case. Well that argument would imply that he arrived at EFC with everything rosy in the garden. When Martinez left we were in a shocking state. No reference is made to Koeman turning that around and getting euro football last season.

There's the argument in style. I get that. That is important to us at EFC. But so is winning things. First win then develop style. That journey I agree is not easy. Koeman has just bought a number of new faces in – bedding in individually and collectively takes time – no allowance for this seems to be apparent in the argument to sack him now. That's even before you look at our opposition during this integrating process.

Finally, there's the issue of culpability. Again the OP would intimate that Koeman is solely responsible. That's patently wrong and harsh. Playing without a forward sits with the incompetence of the board. If you look at the cliff-like fall in form go to the transfer deadline day as a starting point. Psychologically, I sense that was a massive blow to Koeman and the team alike. That will take time to adjust to.

Koeman on that basis should be afforded time. That's not forever – but reasonable time, where given it is at the start of the season the risk is mitigated. We all hope for better times. Winning in style. It is not there now. It might not be there for a little while yet. But the decision to retain/dismiss Koeman has to be an informed one.

The club thankfully will be looking at our results and performances, not what happened in Valencia some years back.

Don Alexander
159 Posted 20/09/2017 at 11:15:06
Once again, James, I applaud the lucidity in which you perfectly sum up the situation for balanced, ambitious fans.
Stan Schofield
162 Posted 20/09/2017 at 12:05:22
For me, even if it were established beyond all doubt that Koeman hadn't performed well at Valencia, all I'm really interested in is how he manages Everton. It's the evidence of this, rather than the evidence of his past, that I'm focused on.

Focusing only on that evidence of his management at Everton, the steady accumulation of that evidence tells me that Koeman lacks the necessary skills in both tactics and man-management. It leads me to the judgement that he should be sacked as soon as possible.

This is a carefully considered judgement, one that has grown steadily from the evidence. I am sure that many other judgements on ToffeeWeb in the vein that he should be sacked, are similarly based on the evidence.

Now, having said that, if we then look at the evidence of his pre-Everton performance, that might or might not reinforce a conclusion about whether he should be sacked. But, certainly in my case, it does nothing to change the conclusion.

Raymond Fox
163 Posted 20/09/2017 at 15:14:24
Oliver 145, the fact remains that he does not own a controlling share in the club, it is not his club as many now say.
He may well get his way if he insists because the other 50%+ of shares consists of major shareholders and any number of people holding a few shares.
He will nevertheless have to consult the other large shareholders when there are big decisions to be made.

Like I said before, as usual we have little or no definitive idea of what goes on behind the scenes.
We can have a guess, but that's the strength of it.

Ray Robinson
164 Posted 20/09/2017 at 17:02:30
James (#158), congratulations on a very reasoned argument.

Also Stan (#162), a very well reasoned counter argument. This is what makes ToffeeWeb such a good forum.

Where do I sit? With James at the moment but possibly with Stan after the next 4 home matches. Sitting on the fence? Too right I am – but about to come down off it very time soon, I suspect!

Darren Hind
165 Posted 20/09/2017 at 18:05:14
You see, this is where the pro-Koeman argument falls flat on its face.

James McPherson posts: "Koeman has bought a number of new faces in – bedding in individually and collectively takes time."

So didn't he know this when he was agreeing to so many signings ? Is this something that has come as a complete surprise to him? Did he really need to change the squad so radically in such a short timescale? And if they are going to take time to bed in, why the fuck is he starting them?

And what's all this "Koeman has bought in" lark? I must have read a hundred posts saying that Koeman was let down by the board for not signing a striker. It appears that His defenders want to give him full credit for the players that were bought in ... yet exonerate him of all responsibility for the ones who weren't.

Lets be clear about this ; The club (driven by Koeman's wishes) have spunked £200m on quantity, there was no signing of genuine quality. Not one of the outfield players he had signed had shown they had what it takes to play for a top four team – unless you include the well past his best Rooney – Planning and structure didn't figure in this transfer window. Never mind the quality feel the width.

There is simply no logic to these pleas of mitigation. Not one single player would have come in without Koeman`s approval. He knew last year we needed a striker, but only after the club had spent a fortune did he come out and say a striker was priority. Why did he not scream for one when the coffers were full?

There is no logic to the pleas for more time either. What are they based on? A hope that he may achieve his target of reaching last years dizzy heights? I mean what is this hope based on? His actions? His tactics? His courage and attacking philosophy? His ability to inspire? Or is it based on plain illogical high apple pie-in-the-sky hope?

Those calling for Koeman to be removed can point to his dismal man management, they can point to his cowardly tactics against top opponents. They have suffered the passionless dross this guy has repeatedly served up for over a year. They are basing their argument on hard common sense, on the evidence of their own eyes, on the clubs current plight. On the fact that we have spent a fortune to go backwards.

There is no other way to judge a man but on what he has done, judging him on what you hope he might do is for the birds and the kite fliers.

What will the defenders say when the leopard has been given more time and proves unable to change his spots? ... Oops?
This is too serious a situation. Every day Koeman is here. He is denying the opportunity to another guy who lets face it, would be really hard pushed to do any worse. Whoever that guy may be

Alan J Thompson
166 Posted 20/09/2017 at 18:21:02
Some years ago (pre-ToffeeWeb?) on another site (TeamTalk) in response to somebody who said Everton should aim to finish 10th, I asked if that was his answer, mediocrity, as aiming for 10th and just missing was a relegation battle whereas aiming to win it and just missing meant qualifying for European competition.

Now, our very well paid Manager has said that we should aim to finish where we finished last season. Again, is this what we should aspire to?

To paraphrase The Greatest, "What's our name?"

James McPherson
167 Posted 20/09/2017 at 18:24:05
Darren, you've presented your view. Feel sure that people will read this, look at your carefully articulated arguments, reflect on their own views and other contributions and draw their conclusion. That's football.
John G Davies
168 Posted 20/09/2017 at 18:37:26
It is indeed James. Opinion is exactly that, each different and each as valuable as the next to ToffeeWeb.

James: "new players bedding in individually and collectively takes time." Of course it does, same for any team.

You were countered by "didn't he know this when he was agreeing to so many signings. Did he really to change the squad so radically in such a short time." The answers are Yes and Yes.

"if they are going to take time to bed in, why the fuck is he starting them?" Errrr. To bed them in?

"He knew we needed a striker." Looks like he considered he had Giroud early in the window, only for Mrs Giroud to block the move late on. He was then left with trying to find an alternative striker.

Be interesting if any poster can pro identify names of strikers we could have signed. One proviso is they must be capable of playing for a top four team.

Darren Hind
169 Posted 20/09/2017 at 19:07:03
I know they will draw their own conclusions, Jim. You only have to look at these threads for evidence of that.

Fair play to you at least you understood the points and wisely chose not to go down the "looks like" route...

"Looks like" .... dear oh dear. These tabloids have a lot to answer for...

John G Davies
170 Posted 20/09/2017 at 19:09:17
And the name of the centre forward you would have tried to sign is.... ???
John G Davies
171 Posted 20/09/2017 at 19:38:26
Darren,

If your retort at 169 is the best you can offer to my post at 168, I can only conclude you do not have a counter-argument to the points I make.

Disappointing really, especially as you hold a counter-argument as a necessity to posting.

Brian Murray
174 Posted 22/09/2017 at 09:38:23
John (Post 170),

The next sensation from the Ivory Coast (Drogba) or the next forlorn winger (Henry) is out there. Instead of showing no vision and going for the safe bets, Gueye, Schneiderlin, Rooney, Klaassen... Big world out there but apparently our scouting network only covers Cheshire and part of Holland.

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