Dowell to Forest on loan

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Potentially a very good move for club and player and his career development and (hopeful) progression to the first team. He is talented enough to be selected for a side like Forest, but it's still a stretch to see him getting much 1st team action at Everton this season.

Will his stamina and psyche be up to the Championship challenge? His year at Forest will tell us a lot about his likely growth and future as a player at the level we want to be.

Good luck to the lad.

If we make it to the Europa League group stages; chances are we'd have played almost 30 competitive games of football even before we hit the busy Christmas/New Year schedule.

Surely there would have been plenty of opportunities for Dowell to get game time for Everton this season, something he deserves for his performances for the Under-23s, England Under-20s, and in pre-season.

I agree that it seems a bit harsh considering his decent strikes in preseason but there's no room for sentiment near the top.

Over to you, Kieran. Time to prove your worthy. He's got his opportunity now. Set the Championship alight consistently over the season and show Koeman you're worth a place in the matchday squad.

This should toughen and bulk him up a bit and is a big step up from the U23s.

And Warburton's assistant is a fine Blue gentleman named David Weir. He'll keep a very close eye on our prize.

"Won't play for us again"??

I'll take a bet on that.

The worry for us is that if he does 'smash' it at Forest which I think he will, he may not be all that keen to come back and may see his future elsewhere. I think lads like Kieran, Jonjoe and Callum Connolly who have all been brought up within the Academy since they were 7 or so have been treated very poorly this pre season.

Lads like DCL and Lookman have received more favourable treatment in my opinion mainly because they have been brought in by Koeman/Walsh and they are claiming 'ownership' of them for their own egos.

Hopefully challenging the supposed 'big teams' not just of the Premier League but also Europe, tell me where does Kieran fit in with all that?

He's a boy playing for the Under-23s who undoubtedly has flair and skill but, if he's not deemed good enough now, when will he be?

Is Tom Davies getting loaned to Nottm Forest?

I'll retract what I said: he might play for the Under-23s at some point- if he fails at Forest.

Did you actually watch the U-20 World Cup?

Dowell had some good moments, deserved his starting spot, but never once looked to be a better player than Lookman or Calvert-Lewin. They've gotten "more favourable treatment" because they're ready for Premier League football and Dowell isn't. Simple as that.

And as for him being potentially better than Sigurdsson... well, this is how we find out, isn't it?

Everton should be more proactive with this. A player like Dowell would IMO do well in a Dutch or Belgian Division 1 team.

Kieran, I believe, would surprise many if he were given the opportunity – as he showed in the pre-season games, he has an eye for goal, is left-footed, and would add more balance to the current squad.

This loan move could backfire if Kieran has a good season at Forest and decides to move from the club for more first-team football opportunities elsewhere.

Davies is a different kind of player... fierce and physical in addition to his skills. Dowell is not. Davies was clearly ready to play with the grownups the moment he stepped on the field.

Koeman isn't ready to make that call with Dowell, but I don't think he has shipped him "do not return" at all, or he wouldn't be sending him to play for Warburton and Weir, he'd be loaning him to Sunderland (sorry, Tyias!).

All players are different and develop at different rates. Davies and Calvert-Lewin have more physicality about them, so could be used in the Premier League at a young age and Lookman has already played regularly against fully grown men for Charlton and at the moment isn't getting overly exposed.

Coleman, Osman and one Neville Southall all went out on loan!

And you're comment about playing well at forest means he'll never come back? You muppet.

As for preferential treatment, I agree that Kenny should be given a go but the rest aren't ready yet. Lookman and DCL are further along in their development. It's simple.

I swear some people just want to moan for the sake of it.

Dowell is one step behind them and the ball is in his court, he has to Impress there. He has to get his head around the fact that he only has 3 main options: EFC 1st team, Forrest's level or sink down the leagues.

Seems like a sensible, if harsh, progression. For all the glamour, it's still a harsh Darwinian footballing world out there, improve, adapt, survive... or you'll find yourself sinking down the food chain.

1) His skill will improve to the extent he will satisfy us or any other good team in the Premier League.

2) His build will develop which, with his already evident skill, may satisfy us or any other good team etc etc.

3) He joins Hope Akpan, James Vaughan and loads of others who never play again in the Premier League whilst they quietly become millionaires.

If he's got his head screwed on, he'll do his damnedest to get to 1, 2 or 3, in that order.

All the best lad, hope to see you again!

Calvert-Lewin is a decent young striker who needs a run in his normal position. He looks a lot better up top than on the wing. Plus Calvert-Lewin has played in the lower leagues already and is in the first team squad so I guess that's the thinking behind it.

My only concern is that Koeman will continue playing Calvert-Lewin out of position then absolutely it makes no sense to loan Dowell as he should be playing in that wing position Koeman has Calvert-Lewin in.

Also we need to factor in Sigurdsson, Dowell's chances will be even less assuming he switches to us.

Dowell is one of the most gifted footballers to come through the academy in years; now he has to grasp how good he can be and work for it. I'll be watching the Championship with interest.

You make a kid a millionaire before he's 20 and then send him off to play with players that are sub-standard in comparison and not earning anywhere near what he is, then you can't be surprised when that player loses motivation and just cruises along.

I think we often forget as fans that we're talking about teenagers here. We act shocked when they don't knuckle down because we're looking from the outside thinking that they will surely do whatever it takes to become a world class footballer, when in fact they're just kids who want to hang out with their mates and kick a ball around.

I hope that he flourishes at Forest but still feel like it's a risk with such a talented kid. I'd rather he be around people like Barry and Rooney who know what it takes to make it at the top level.

It is fair to say though that with Rooney, Klaassen, Davies, Gueye, Schneiderlein, Barry, Lookman, Mirallas, Besic and maybe Sigurdsson (and Bolasie to return at some point) all vying for 4-5 positions, it's not like he was going to be a regular starter in the Premier League and this does feel like a progression from the youth team.

Maybe would've preferred a shorter loan time and chance for him to come back in 3 months, but I guess we may have the option to recall him still.

All those posters crying for the youngsters to be thrown in on the basis of a good showing on a couple of outings need to realise there is a chasm between U23 standards and the Premier League.

The only way to bridge that gap is to up their game gradually through loan spells.

Didn't do us any harm with Big Nev, Bainesy or Seamus, did it?

I personally don't think Calvert-Lewin and Lookman are first team players yet. Even they could do with a season in the Championship...

As for Calvert-Lewin, I share your skepticism, but I don't think Koeman does.

I don't go along with young heads not knowing what's good for them. At that age I had a good job with good people around me and I wanted to be the best I could be while I was in work, and then enjoy myself outside of work. Admittedly there are different temptations and pressures for the young lads, but overall I believe that the correct guidance generally gets these lads to where they should be.

The loan spell at the right time has benefited countless young pros, and it often brings them life skills, to see good pros on less money pulling their tripes out each week. With respect to those who have had good careers in the lower leagues, it's not what a young lad wants out of his own career, and so it spurs them on.

The reason is, despite having all the attributes, we say he does not fit the mold the Ron and Walsh are looking for. He could become a Le Tissier or a Hoddle type – but that is not what we have as our strategy.

We are at the Dutch 4-3-3 highly physical wing attackers that can press etc. Sandro, Rooney and a few others like Lookman and Calvert-Lewin will fill those wing attack areas and we will get one or two centre-forwards in as well.

Despite my hope for the coming season and plenty of belief in our manager, for now at least, as to why we'd rather have a tall (young) centre-forward in that position – out of position! – remains beyond me.

Hopefully with Henry and Kieran getting valuable first team experience, they can come back next season and join a Champions League side*.

(* Everton in case that wasn't clear!)

Also he looks a delicate soul to me. If he struggles at all at Forest they will have zero compunction about dropping him unceremoniously whereas at Everton there is a vested long term interest which might facilitate a gentler approach. Many kids get swallowed up by the loan system and spat out the other side in a League Two club.

As ever we have to trust that the coaches know him well and have spoken with him to work out what's the best next move for him. If he can establish himself in a decent Forest side pushing for promotion, then that will go some way to earning him a role in our squad next season.

Yet, if that was to warm the bench, with a ten minute substitute's role every now and again, probably best that he gains regular football with, in this case, Forest.

Like a few have mentioned, David Weir is there, so hopefully will look after him. I just hope and pray that he does come back to us, better and stronger.

Look what happened to Galloway. Played a few games, and never got a game for almost an entire calendar year and Tony Pulis, the so and so, wouldn't give him back (eventually made an exception involving the our U23 squad toward the end, but it was an arrogant no for inclusion in our senior squad).

I'd prefer a 3-month loan at first and wait and see approach. If they don't get game time, we get them back almost asap.

He's very highly thought of and looks to me that he finds the difficult things really easy, but there are two sides to football, and hopefully playing regular competitive men's football will bring him on that bit more.

Good luck lad, go and enjoy yourself because if you do, then that should mean that you are doing well!

Dowell, Pennington, Galloway and Browning are all on a year-long audition. Not all four will make it, my suspicion is that only Dowell will and the others will find their levels this season.

He could well end up finding his level and not returning, you never know, but the only way to find out how good he is is for him to have some game time in a really tough division playing against men. It should do him the world of good.

Guess we have to trust in Joe to make sure Kieran and the other lads out on loan are looked after and treated fairly etc.

Can someone tell me whereabouts Finch Farm is located in Liverpool?

Good luck to you, lad, wherever you land!

Jonjoe Kenny is tough enough now but I will not be surprised if he is loaned out as well. This is a poor move, if it happens, Kenny has worked hard at his game and gives his all for ninety minutes, he is ready now, is Martina good enough, might cause a big stink if he isn't.

It looks like Connolly is being sacrificed in our pursuit of the Swansea player. Liam Walsh will go on loan, he is tougher than Barkley will ever be, and should stay here, so there is a downside to all these signings even the young players they have signed for the future.

The young players who have been here 10 or more years will be pushed out to make way for them and they all have the one thing in common: potential. Some will not be given the chance to prove it – not a good way to run the youth system in my opinion.

I suppose, if the gaffer thinks otherwise, a loan move to Forrest who will be challenging for promotion will be a good experience for Kieran and I expect him to do well.

If I could be clear about Koeman's approach, I could then perhaps be clearer about where Dowell does or doesn't fit into whatever plans he has, if he has any.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin: age 20; career first-team appearances: 42
Ademola Lookman: age 19; career first-team appearances: 53
Keiran Dowell: age 19; career first-team appearances: 2

He's way behind those other two in terms of career development and experience, and needs this loan. If he never plays for Everton again, it'll be because he wasn't good enough, despite having nice technique.

We're looking for players who are strong in four areas: physical, technical, tactical and character. We only know that Dowell is strong in one out of these four areas (technical); the rest all need to be developed and demonstrated. A loan is the only real option for this.

If he's just been shipped off because he's surplus to requirements then it could be the end of a promising youngster.

Good Luck, Kieran; show them what they're missing.

If Sigurdsson does sign then how many midfielders would we have? I can see Davies's time on the field being drastically reduced this season, especially in the key games.

Hopefully Liam Walsh goes out also to a strong Championship team because, as much as I'd like to see him in the first team, it's just not likely until the squad is trimmed.

A loan move will really help him get up to speed. As good as Unsworth is doing, that league is so far behind the unforgiving level of the Premier League it's untrue.

Sounds like he would already fit perfectly as an Everton winger.

It would give the youngsters plenty to aim for as they make their way in the game and the new club could use Goodison Park as the ground!

On a serious note, I do feel it's a pity that many of our youngsters may never get the chance to shine for us in the first team. I appreciate there are many reasons why players are loaned out, mainly to get experience etc, and also many reasons why many of the younger players who come through the Academy/youth set up at Everton fail to make the grade.

At the end of the day, football is changing, and although Man Utd brought through a group of young but exceptionally talented players at the same team, allied with players of great experience, and took the Premier League by storm, that was over 20 years ago. I don't think any other club has got close to achieving that since.

If we want to be part of the elite, or the best club, it seems we will need to get used to bringing in 'experienced' ready-made players to fill the gaps, as and when they crop up, that young players may have filled, in previous years.

If I was Tom Davies, I would be worried with the current set-up. Last season, at 18, he ended up as a regular in the first team, possibly elevated due to circumstances, injuries etc, but he took his chance and did well. This season, I can see him sitting on the bench.

Kenny is more likely to stay rather than be sent out on loan only because we have less cover in his position. Nobody knows whether he is good enough for the first team but, with Coleman out and Martina looking a bit shaky last week, we may find out.

I can now see why Gerard Deulofeu went back to Barcelona.

Really hope it goes well as he could be a proper player for us for many a year.

"I can now see why Gerard Deulofeu went back to Barcelona"

Why Ian? He'll still be on the bench as they will have Countinho.

I'll have to take issue with you on that, Mike. He could possibly never play for Everton because he doesn't fit the system (as pointed out by other posters).

It has been said many times here but it is worth repeating for those who do not follow the U23s but we basically have what amounts to a 'golden generation' if you can forgive the cringeworthy phrase. That is to say, a crop of kids who as a bunch are significantly better than those who came before or since.

For me, it is their attitude and will to win which is the most striking aspect; we've all seen it in abundance with Tom Davies but it also applies to Liam Walsh, Jonjoe Kenny, Dowell and Connolly. The latter two are quieter personality types but, like the others, they could thrive given a chance.

To think that Connolly already is being touted as a makeweight in the Sigurdsson transfer makes me fear for the likes of Dowell, Kenny and Walsh. It has been pointed out before but it is probably true that Koeman is not that invested in the youth team as his interest is his own job security in the short-term. It would be tragic if we lost some very talented kids (all Evertonians btw) because there is no long-term strategy in place.

Obviously we are speculating on whether or not they all are league standard but we've seen one of the group given a chance and he took the team by storm.

"To think that Connolly already is being touted as a makeweight in the Sigurdsson transfer makes me fear for the likes of Dowell, Kenny and Walsh. It has been pointed out before but it is probably true that Koeman is not that invested in the youth team as his interest is his own job security in the short-term. It would be tragic if we lost some very talented kids (all Evertonians btw) because there is no long-term strategy in place."

I would also add that Unsworth had them playing in a way and a system that Koeman seemingly wants the 1st XI to play and he (Unsie) slotted players in and out seamlessly and it was good to watch, ie, pacey, positive, high energy footie no pissing about at the back, players running onto balls played down the channels, great movement between the midfield and strikers.

Michael Keane was playing in the championship just 2 years ago; now, he's our £25million saviour in defence.

If any of the loanees in the championship are good enough, this should be the season they start to shine. If they don't, they probably weren't quite good enough.

It is promising that we are now loaning players out to the Championship, where a couple of years ago it was League One or League Two. This is surely a good sign of the how far our academy is coming along.

Better the lad get 30 games under his belt at a decent club, than 6-10 sub appearances and the odd League Cup game with no real pressure to perform.

He has talent, for sure, but in a position like his, and with his style, It is unfair to compare to Davies. 30-40 games, an important role in the team, in a competitive league Will show us what he has.

Next season, at 20 years of age, he'll be ready to take the Premier League by storm.

With him, Onyekuru, Galloway and Williams coming back next season a year older and a season wiser and stronger, it'll be like 3 new signings.

I would love the rumours to come true that Klopp would buy him for €50m. Never seen so many poor passes in all my life, no idea, no clue and hardly any experience at that level. So what if it takes an extra year for Dowell to get to a Premier League level – this could make him into a great player. Okay for me.

Yes, it appears we may have missed out on him... 😉

As far as I know, Garbutt stunk the gaff out at Fulham 2 seasons ago, and only managed 8 appearances for Wigan – a truly awful Wigan side to boot – last season. He is 24 now and his career seems to be going backwards.

It's a shame, because he looked handy a few years back, but I doubt he's going to pull up trees any time soon.

I just hope I get to see Kenny in a blue shirt this season.

Seriously, bit disappointed on this one, I was hoping after pre-season he could break through but probably for the best.

Don't worry, mate, there will be plenty ready to take your place. 😀

Pity he isn't Dutch or failed to get a game with Southampton last season.

However as others have said many of our most successful players have done their bit on loan and it offers the lad a good chance to get 30+ games under his belt playing week in week out and then we'll really know if he's got what it takes.

If he's good enough, then, come next August, it'll be like a new signing.

The main point of my post was that, if Dowell doesn't make it at Everton, it'll be because he didn't develop as a 'four-sided' player, not because the loan to Forest was a bad idea.

The loan to Forest is a good idea and gives him the chance to develop as a player in what will be difficult circumstances, in a tough league but with good guidance. He's only ever played two games (one as a sub) where the result really mattered deeply and emotionally to the people watching (and that is being generous given what those two games were). Hopefully he'll play two of those a week for the next 10 months. That was certainly not going to happen at Everton this season.

I sense that, in our situation, Moshiri is an impatient investor and is looking to 'buy the results' asap, realizing the increased profit that the success will bring. Nothing wrong with that either.

The recent youth players who have come through including those bought into the first team squad and the U23s set-up just have to measure up to the standards being set. I would rather buy and play a player of superior quality than include a player of less quality because he is a product of the academy youth system.

If it were possible to evaluate players with absolute accuracy, then an excellent academy player would be more welcome than a bought in player, a) because of the sort of almost family relationship and b) the visible cost saving. Davies is special for all the right reasons and that's great. Kenny may be too. And Walsh.

Dowell possibly is but he does need some bite or edge to his game and that has the best chance to be brought out with a good loan experience. A bad loan experience and he may not come through.

I would like to think that, with Joe Royle and David Weir in the picture, he will do okay. By the end of this season I expect Kenny, Davies, Holgate and Lookman will have consolidated their positions within 'the squad' and possibly Calvert Lewin – not so sure. That would be an excellent showing. Next season Dowell, Walsh and Onyekuru. However, nothing is certain, the need a lot of luck along the way. Ledson's situation was the one that really disappointed me. I thought he would make the breakthrough.

I am also interested to hear more about Jose Baxter's progress and Ryan Gauld who went from Dundee to Portugal. He looked amazing alongside Robertson, the full back who's just joined the RedShite. Does anyone know anything?

You could argue Barkley too but his loan spells didn't go that well. So, regrettably, the odds are stacked against him and we may never see Dowell again in the first team. I hope that that's not the case.

As previous comments have noted, the loan system is extremely polar – either brilliant or devastating to young players' careers (eg, Galloway), lets hope Dowell returns to the fold bigger, stronger, faster and worth £6 million.

Anyone remember a centre-half called Peter Clarke? I think he got many England U21 caps whilst at Everton and played a handful of first team games where when up against the likes of Shearer he was clearly out of his depth. I think since then he's had a reasonable career round League 1/2 level but no-ones thought he was worth bringing back to the Premier League.

Sending young players out on loan can certainly be the catalyst for first team action, while it can also expose them as not quite top-level quality. I believe that Dowell has the ability to play in our first team, and hopefully this loan should help him build a little more grit and a healthier appetite for the less pleasant parts of the game.

John Lundstram was recently transferred to Sheffield Utd for £500k so that is a move up for him.

I've said before; bumped into some Oxford Utd fans and although Conor McAleny bagged a tidy 10 goals in 18 games, it was Ledson they raved about most.

I don't know the ins and outs of the decisions the players or club took, but I don't think either would be knocking on the first-team door either now or longer term; Ledson is tenacious and all-action but (for me) lacks genuine top-level ability, while Lundstram has a great range of passing but is slow around the pitch and lacking in energy.

Hope this helps!

As you say, John Lundstram is a different type of player to Ledson, very neat and tidy with good ball-control, good passing ability, but does lack that bit of energy and zest that catches the eye. But again, he is making a good living out of the game and has impressed enough to get into the Championship, so he isn't doing bad at all.

He as never to break through with us, but still managed to climb to the top flight. So it can be done.

Nevertheless, he carved out an excellent career and played over 300 games in the Championship. The highlight being a late equaliser in the FA Cup against Chelsea.

I think the lad can be pretty pleased with himself. He went to my school and being three years younger he should be about 35 now.

Three guesses who the manager was that night,and who eventually let him go: Dour dull dreary Davie.

I know that Browning and Galloway both played the full match for Sunderland, but didn't see them play and don't know how they acquitted themselves.

Dowell came on as a sub for Forest, but again, I didn't see him play and don't know how he acquiited himself either.

At 20 years of age he was transfered to Man City for a British record fee. The following year Italy's Torino doubled that fee, but he never settled and returned to Man Utd a year later. The rest is history.

He remains to this day one of the finest, most skillful attacking player to have ever graced English football. Makes me wonder how he would be handled today.