Koeman calls for realism following Spurs defeat

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/apr/21/europeanfootball.sport

And it's not the players – it's the way they are instructed to play, I finally worked it out – Koeman has got them so disorganized in the way they play, hence the slow movement and momentum, so that he can get more money to buy more midfield players and youth players so we can loan them out to 3rd rate teams and destroy their development.

Hey,at the end of the day, he just gets surprised by the other teams' tactics.

I see us out of top 10 and even fighting relegation. He's simply incompetent.

And I don't buy this "transfers are nothing to do with me" rubbish either – you're the manager, you're accountable for the performance of the team.

He spent over a year getting his excuses in early.

He's been backed in the transfer market for a year... yet we look like a team that has been thrown together from left-overs. I don't mean in terms of 'gelling', I mean there are bits missing entirely. Yet he still plays the same formations... regardless of whether he's got the players for it.

It's not like he's even likeable. You just know he couldn't give a fuck about this club. Failure is acceptable to him, providing he can blame someone else.

As for our present manager, I honestly cannot make head nor tail of the kind of football he wants his team to play!

Koeman took over a unfit and unmotivated team, this is true, but I can't see any progress – despite him having changed the whole team more or less. The last two games have been dire and, if there is no change, not only in our results but also our playing style, which is dog shite to watch, he should be gone by Xmas!

Apathy grows from stagnation. Even ardent acolytes must yield to the fact there is no progress, no pattern of play.

If there was a germ of identity, something to excited about, critics and criticism would held in check.

He just doesn't get it, Everton, and it shows.

Koeman has set the team up in such an unprofessional manner for this level that he deserves no more than an ultimatum from the board for a very quick change in performances or he's out.

His system has got the team confused and unprepared. This is without doubt the worst football I have ever seen from a team with decent footballers in it and also from a manager who was supposedly highly rated.

We are run like amateurs. This manager rolls in on a massive undeserving salary, publicly slates players, and sets no plan for a balanced team. I could go on and on but something has to change quickly.

I would give him five to ten games to get a big improvement on the park or go.

Who would have thought that an almost entire back line and central midfield that cannot play a decent forward ball would do well against a top team.

Hats off to Bournemouth with little or no resources have come through the divisions to hold their own in the top flight with positive coaching!!!

None of the players he has alienated or the new signings are bad players. Most, if not all, are internationals, proud to represent their countries, but who are being made to look totally inept by a tactically naive manager. (Where have we heard that before?)

Koeman tries to abdicate all responsibility for our failure in the transfer market, thus effectively transferring all blame onto the shoulders of Steve Walsh and his team of scouts. Although I admit to finding it hard to understand what Walsh actually gets paid for, the buck finally stops with the man who picks the team and decides the match tactics.

Koeman appears totally bereft of attacking awareness or that goals win matches. Every team selection seems set up to try to avoid defeat rather than go out to win the game.

Sandro looked a really exciting player for Malaga last season but is being made to look useless by Koeman and his so-called tactics. The lad works best playing off a central striker, but Koeman refuses to try Calvert-Lewin and Sandro together, something I thought he might have tried yesterday.

But no, instead of changing the tactics or formation at half-time, he made two like-for-like changes, effectively putting the blame for a poor first half on Klaassen and Sandro. What a motivator!

Every week, it seems more of our squad are becoming disillusioned with Everton (or with Koeman). Before long, he will have the whole squad against him and it will take some hard choices by Moshiri, who hand-picked the manager, to correct the situation.

I honestly believe that Koeman, who clearly has no love or loyalty to Everton, is a fraud, living on his reputation as a player, rather than his record as a manager. We could have gone for someone like Pellegrini with a pedigree of actually winning the Premier League, but instead brought in the man who was an abject failure at Valencia. How long must we suffer this insufferable bore of a manager who simply appears incapable of... erm... managing?

My God, what a fraud Koeman is. Surprised by their formation, their physicality, our confidence lost, essentially saying top six is not possible. Okay then... goodbye.

However, at the moment, they have played 4, lost 4 this season. They will need to keep their positivity levels up as well as their coaching.

If we are in and around bottom 5 or 6 at Christmas, I can then see him getting booted. Around 10th or higher and still in Europe, he'll be here until the season end, or close too.

Doesn't escape from the fact that, when reading these comments, it just depresses me as it proves he really has no fucking clue. Surprised by the other teams tactics but doesn't change our system to combat it??? Utterly clueless.

I don't mind if we were playing like the away side with them keeping all possession. If that was the case, either it was counter-attacking or long balls behind their defenders.

But those systems need wide players going up front along with two strikers or a striker and midfielder with quick feet for all. There is Lookman and Mirallas or even Lennon or Niasse to do that, whom he won't play, and our best player, Calvert-Lewin, comes on as substitute.

Koeman just has no clue what to do with the players he has, just like at Valencia with the likes of Villa, Silva, Mata, Morientes – all in their prime form. Just like Valencia, we will be fighting a relegation battle with Bournemouth, Huddersfield and Palace if this continues.

Three years wages for the Cuco Martina charity fund. Schneiderlin has been programmed to pass backwards or sideways, not the one to trigger counter attacks. Klaassen belongs to the Dutch league.

Only Sandro will come good but only with the right coach. He is bit like Mirallas right now, trying to take players on his own, just like at Malaga. But in England, he is finding less space to do that and also no support, hence getting fouled. But he will come good in the right system once he adapts.

Calvert-Lewin is the reason we have 4 points. He should start the next game and, last but not least, Koeman should be gone. Bring in Allardyce or Benitez for short term.

At least under Moyes you always thought right up to the last second we could nick a win or salvage a draw, this team now it seems like they have better things to do after the game – and that doesn't include Koeman... surprise, surprise.

I'm not confused now. 7th is the aim? Nope? So, what is realistic? You tell me, Koeman, as it appears you're here to do my thinking for me...

This is worse than the previous idiot. Anyone who thinks we will finish in the top 6 is clearly not watching the same pathetic inept performances I've seen every single game this season so far. Big Ron out and now.

David Barks – this I totally agree with. If Moshiri and Kenwright are to be measured for ambition, it will be how long they allow Koeman in the job whilst the team look so far away from the top 6.

I do not agree that we are sell-to-buy or that we did not spend enough this summer. That would suggest Koeman was operating with his hands tied behind his back.

No, I think he was given plenty. Lukaku wanted away and instead of replacing him, our management team decided to spend most of his cash on Sigurdsson, Klaassen and Rooney's signing-on fee.

Ambitious teams do not hang around if things veer of track – and we are clearly not going to get to the top 4 by next season (which Koeman was hired for) if we continue like this.

I want to believe in Koeman, but there is very, very little on view that can sustain hope. Keep it tight and nick one, knife to a gunfight – Moyes did that with more competence. Is Koeman a more expensive, less competent Moyes wannabe?

Depressing.

That probably won't wash when it comes near to "Vote of confidence" time.

"We need new players to improve".

"It is hard to improve with new players".

Perversely, he might be right. We have I think, brought in 13 players, and many gone. Without addressing their individual merits or faults, this represents a big change over 12 months.

I haven't enjoyed Koeman's methods, his man management, his PR, his tactics, team selections or lack of any perceivable path of team development. However, what's done is done, I and we here cannot change it.

Perhaps the decimation of what remained pre-Koeman would start to yield results, and would become at least slightly more apparent as more of his choice of players were added. A 3-year project – but surely some progress would be visible a third of the way in? It simply isn't.

If we accept that Lukaku leaving was a given, and we'd replaced him as best we could with the money from his sale, or more, then integrated that one/those two players, and started to work on improving our away form of last season, without signing even one other player... would we look like being much worse than last season? We certainly do now.

Maybe Koeman "knew" something. Some advanced tactical path, a new direction, cutting new techniques. As it is, it now seems to me at least, that he can't deal with what he himself has engineered. Perhaps a victim of his own permutations – and his answer is some kind of safe neutrality with no permutations. I have no clue what the hell he's aiming at, I've never seen it's like at Everton. It reminds me of Norwich last season, when overnight, it all seemed to grind to a halt.

Let's get Mike Walker back in before this gets serious.

I'm not a fan a hiring and firing on a whim; however, we seriously seems to be heading nowhere under Koeman. Yeah, okay, we've spent money, lots of it, in the transfer window... but how the hell can we sell Lukaku so early with no like-for-like replacement lined up? No, not Sandro! I'm talking a proven tried and tested striker.

I fear for us at the moment.

This could take quite a bit of time to rectify.

Surely, Koeman, and his backroom team, have looked at the players and playing style of Tottenham, in preparation for the game; so, I don't buy his point.

My take on all of this, is that Walsh and Koeman have brought in players not good enough to meet the expectations of "the project" and paid over the odds in the process.

Furthermore, I'm beginning to feel that his man-management style is not up to the job and, this is having a detrimental impact on the spirit of the team: Niasse, Barkley, Mirallas etc would more than likely confirm this in private.

I really don't think this season will play out very well; however, I hope I am proved wrong.

The facts do not bear out that he has not given the manager all the necessary resources so far, or indeed put the club on a better financial footing.

But they will be damning if he allows Koeman to remain for too long.

The next man will need an equally large war chest.

This is when Moshiri's appetite and investment can be truly measured – if he fails to deliver then, then we do not have the ambitious new owner we all thought we had.

What is more – Koeman refers to "people's expectations being unrealistic". An ambitious owner would not allow results to sink the high expectations he himself set when he arrived of this club challenging the elite.

After all, when Moshiri took over, these were his words:

"There has never been a more level playing field in the Premier League than now."

1. Martina was entirely unprotected without anyone in front of him. He looks okay to me but not in this set-up.

2. Williams was rubbish, (and is distinctly average): too slow and easily ruffled by Kane. He is bereft of ideas going forward and passes sideways to Baines or to Schneiderlin – even when they are in a worse position.

3. Schneiderlin was rubbish and has been in all 3 games I have attended this season. He plays like an advanced centre-half. He was so bad, after about 30 minutes I said to my dad, "Oh look, there he is!"

4. Klaassen is struggling looks like he is in the wrong league, will he keep his locker. Maybe as he is Dutch he'll have a special locker

5. Davies was poor – care needed as we will sap the confidence out and loose him.

6. Baines looked like he understood all of the above but does not look like a leader at all, and in fact looked sulky from 3-0 onwards.

Koeman is in a large part responsible for this as we really did not know what we were doing.

For our consolation:

- Spurs were just like this when Pocchetino took over, and I distinctly remember their fans disliking him quite a lot

- Our expectations are rightly high, but it is very soon, and we started with 6 or 7 new players.

Oh, I forgot about Sigurdsson and Sandro – enough said.

Hindsight is a marvel but a side without Klaassen, Williams, Sandro, Schneiderlin would have done a great deal better?

Starting with:

Davies on the right in front of Martina
Jagielka in the centre for Williams
Calvert-Lewin up front for Sandro
Schneiderlin replaced by Besic
Sigurdsson into the centre for Klaassen
And Lookman on the left

Ours... oh, they need time to adjust to the physicality of the Premier League. How on earth was Klaassen classed as a box-to-box midfielder, and Martina, who was left exposed at times yesterday, can't defend to save his life.

He has sold or destroyed the confidence of our two best players and placed his confidence in geriatric players such as Williams who would be lucky to get on the bench at most teams.

I have given up, I feel more depressed than when Bobby Brown Shoes was here. We have gone from one extreme where everything was 'phenomenal' to the other where we have a manager who does nothing but blame, shame and criticize everyone and everything but himself.

I have never heard the morose twat say it was his fault once... God help us – we're doomed.

He's thought, "Yes, I will take this job with these mugs and see what I can do." Deep down, he's not bothered about how well Everton do. He'll do what he can but I get the feeling he's not fussed.

Williams was turned easily by Kane on two or three occasions, getting to close to the man yet continued to play the same way?

The Spurs new boy signed from Ajax is the only player we should have been interested in from that Club,. Yes, Klaassen has to be given more time but I just cannot see what his strengths on a football pitch are supposed to be. Maybe his agent passes brown paper bags under a table from two yards well.

Players out of position, square pegs in round holes, players wanting to play the same position – now where have we all seen this before?

I watched Spurs and there was an intensity to everything they did. They practised moves which set their wingbacks free etc.

I then looked at Everton and they went through their half-hearted regular drills to finishing off just aimlessly kicking the ball about like a group of kids on a beach; little wonder they start games poorly.

The club is lacking leadership in all areas.

I will tell you: yesterday was so poor that there is no-one that could come on and defend Koeman. His comments after the the game will even drain the players further. More of this and he will be gone by Xmas.

Reality is that this man is a con, always the first thing a conman does when found out is to blame someone or something else. Get rid now!!

But honestly, those dreamers expecting top 4 football or even more need to open their eyes. We are miles away from the best and it was obvious before a ball was kicked and it is obvious now. We are investing in the future and starting a squad transformation that will take time.

We only have one centre-back that is good enough and the other two are past it. I'd like to see Holgate in the centre but he is needed at right-back. Our best right-back is injured and Holgate will be a better centre-back than right-back; Martina is only a squad player.

Our left-back is getting on and will need replacing as the first-choice option sooner rather than later (Kolasinac would have been perfect). We lack dynamism and mobility in the attacking midfield/wing positions (Lookman looks our best bet and he is so young). That could be rectified with the 5 at the back if Coleman was fit and Baines 5 years younger but neither is the case.

And we need that striker – the idiots who claimed Lukaku's absence wouldn't be felt will feel the full force of a lack of a top striker this season, if a reminder after years of substandard options were needed.

Progress will have to come in the cups – I think we will improve later in the season with better fixtures and with more time for the likes of Sandro and Klaassen to find their feet. But this is a transformation in progress and we've done great work in buying certain younger talents this summer, although we needed another starting striker and centre-back. The question is whether Koeman is the manager to oversee this transformation.

When he took over I had optimism – he was progressive and tactically astute at Southampton. He fixed our home form last season and gave reason for optimism. But increasingly he is looking out of ideas and doing peculiar things.

I'd give him to Christmas and then look elsewhere if we are still stumbling. Spurs are much better than us in practically every position but there is no reason to play so meekly at home. We haven't got the fixtures of last time to blame. That second half against Man City, the match away in Croatia, the first half against Chelsea, and yesterday are just not good enough. And I've already got concerns about Sigurdsson and Rooney in the same set-up.

It comes to something when I'm comparing us with Bournemouth but let's be honest, if Spurs had been commanded to do so yesterday, then we would have been looking at 7 goals conceded. They just went into training mode, it was so easy for them.

IMHO, Koeman does not know what he's doing, but we shall have to painfully wait and see...

You were saying exactly what I said. What does that prove?

Koeman knows what we know – that we don't have the quality but the club we're happy to hype it all up.

We didn't have the quality required last season and we still don't, despite several transfers, so what exactly was the plan?

I have said on previous threads we are not playing players in their correct positions. Calvert-Leewin should be in the centre, Sandro should be wide of him, Sigurdsson behind, Klaassen is a box-to-box battler not truly creative.

We had one good half against Split and it showed Schneiderlin could spray the ball around and that Lookman can play and threaten defences.

I really don't think Koeman has a clue about motivation, setting a team up or having a Plan B. All of us have our opinions about a number of players but it is clear to see why some of these players are playing in the way they are and why some appear totally disillusioned with our great club and its current manager.

Times must be bad, Daniell!! 😏

After reading your post at 44 again, well my response at 49 might not be appropriate. I'm really losing my mind with this fiasco.

The failure to sign a proper centre-forward is just that, a failure, but I do wonder how people reckon Lukaku would have made a contribution given his lackadaisical demeanour on a good day. At Southampton, Koeman had options at centre-forward in both seasons he was there, so who's culpable this time; him, Walsh, Moshiri, the board, or all of them?

That said, any team in the league would have quaked at our opening fixture list, especially with so many new players bedding in, but the comments of those who watched it, and Koeman's, should leave the powers-that-be in no doubt that a lot of points must be won by the end of October when we'll have played Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley, Arsenal and Leicester.

Koeman, it's all about passion; you talk about Everton like it's just a brand – we're not on the same page.

It should be "us" not "Everton" to you! I want to see some heart out on the pitch without players out of position or 3 number 10s out there. You've lost the plot, mate.

Why is this man not using Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, Mirallas up top? Klaassen... no! He needs time; will be good – same as Sandro – both need to come in off the bench. Oh, Rooney and Sigurdsson – a big no-no, one or the other.

Koeman, get some balls, start with a balanced team; new signings will have to wait their time. Jagielka needs to play in games like that! I mean, Koeman, sort out your head, man – we look like a laughing stock. Bring back the Dogs of War!!!!!! Start with the basics or do one, mate!!!!!!

Having said that, you should still have your team set up correctly and organised, and that wasn't the case yesterday. I, like many, was screaming weeks ago for us to sign 2 decent strikers; I can't understand why Koeman seems obsessed with midfield players. He has signed 3 out and out players who normally play just behind the striker, Sigurdsson, Rooney and Klaassen. Now how anybody thinks you can play all 3 is beyond me.

After 20 minutes yesterday you could see were I sit in the Upper Bullens that the Spurs left back Davies had acres of space to run into, I don't think Martina should be at full back but he had absolutely nobody playing in front of him. So that allowed Ericksen and Davies have a 2 on 1 against Martina all the first half.

Getting on to the players, well I don't know were to start they looked at least a yard slower than Spurs, and were out muscled all through the game. I think this was highlighted by their 3rd goal, Kane received the ball a couple of yards outside our box when he played it wide to Alli. Now Schneiderlin was goal side of Kane yet, when Alli played the ball in, Schneiderlin had allowed Kane to get goal side of him. Also for this goal Michael Keane should have been in a position to stop the cross getting to Kane.

I think this also highlighted a problem we have had for at least a couple of seasons, if Lukaku didn't score then we struggled and it seems as if the same problem is there except we don't have Lukaku. We have played 4 games against 2 very good teams in Chelsea and Spurs we had 1 shot on target in 180 minutes. Against Man City, we played against 10 men for most of the match, yet City created all the chances in the 2nd half and deservedly equalized. We spent the whole 2nd half trying to defend a 1-goal lead against 10 men.

I think when Spurs scored the second, most of us knew it was game over. How he puts it right I am not so sure and without being able to change our attacking options till January could be problematic. Finally, young Lookman has looked promising so why was he replaced on the bench by Mirallas who probably has no future at the club and will probably be gone in January?

Spurs are a very good team, been together for three seasons, and were on their game yesterday. Everton had ten new players from when Bobby was potted. They are yet to gel as a team. I accept that this will be the job of Mr Koeman – that is what he is paid for.

Everyone needs to calm down, have some perspective. For me, a cup win and top ten position would be a great achievement in this transitional season.

I will continue to go to the game, support the team, as I have done for over 50 years. Believe me, I have seen worse, and seen better.

Up the Toffees.

Sorry, we have had a full pre-season and players you've chosen, Mr Koeman have arrived. Five more games and, if we are in the bottom five of the Premier League, then Koeman needs to go.

Everton are paying top dollar for our management team and need better than this. My biggest concern: once behind, we don't look like coming back. Let's not blame the loss of Lukaku. Games like yesterday, it wouldn't have changed the result with him in the team.

Anyone else feeling that expectation of pre-season draining from their body? Still, upwards and onwards; Manchester United next.

If there is a way to petition this useless manager then I will do whatever it takes to get rid of him by way of People's Club opinion.

We are the people, we are the Fans!!! Lets make it Loud and Clear that Koeman is not wanted and let's all do it NOW!!

Do I really need to say anything else except Goodbye, Ronald Koeman!

I can't see Moshiri putting up with this if nothing improves come Christmas.

Also, the fans should let Koeman know exactly what they think of him and his current failings.

There are no excuses when you take those figures into consideration. None. You simply have to produce exciting, winning football and a trophy or two. Otherwise, what's the fucking point?

The reason why his signings are failing, Koeman has never to come to terms with the tough mental and physical side of the English Premier League.

Koeman was used to playing in the Dutch and Spanish leagues where players have more time and space on the ball. In the Premier League that's a luxury, where players like Dier of Spurs are waiting to knock someone off the ball as soon as possible.

I do not expect us to suddenly become a top four side. I do, though, expect to see the possibility of it. There is not the remotest sign.

I expect to see a motivated squad. They are not.

I expect him to "get" Everton. He does not. He is not an Evertonian and I do not expect him to be. He is a very expensive hired hand and I expect him to at least to show a sense of engagement. He does not.

I have defended him stoutly because I thought all of this would come. It will not, in my view, ever happen. He is done here.

I think all this hysteria is unhelpful though, people reacting with all this talk of sackings does nothing constructive. If he continues with Martina over Kenny and refuses to use the pace, albeit unpredictable and inconsistent, then we should be calling for change but that won't be until the end of the season.

While we have been utterly bereft of ideas, pace and leadership, and it is painful and frustrating to watch, it is still early days: the Mancs endured years of shit before they clicked. Now I'm not saying Koeman is going to be the next Fergie but overreacting just turns you into one of the stupid clubs like Newcastle or Palace.

Of course I'm saying that now, but I will reaching for the pitchfork after the derby.

And I think that was always too likely coming. Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing but that really was a concern for me... between the cheering! Eeven then, that one or two reverse results, performances, at home would knock us right off our Goodison high horse!

I'm feeling pretty sorry for a great player like Davy Klaassen just now, too... he could have stayed with Ajax, been scoring one or two, instead of being just another one of a half dozen players thrown in to chase after the same ball at his new, supposedly step-up club!! Manager, sort it out!!!

Again, I point back to early last season, away at West Brom, that decisive, ruthless streak appears to have been replaced by stubborn denial, put across as blunt honesty.

He can build winning football teams from scratch, his work at Southampton points to the fact he can do it quite quickly as well. Maybe the pressures of managing Everton are too much.

Both Moyes and Koeman tried to down play the size of the club whilst managing us, hoping that will alleviate pressures self-inflicted by that mindset alone.

Mike Walker admitted the club was bigger than he thought; Walter Smith said the job was bigger than he thought (putting us back up there); Martinez to his credit embraced the club, but was out of his depth.

There is a point, bear with me, the only manager I haven't mentioned during the Premier League era, is the one who walked in saying, "This to me is the biggest club in England." The last manager to win a trophy – Joe Royle.

One of us, who understands Everton.

I think a certain Mr Unsworth may get the best Xmas surprise there is this year!!!

I can't say that about current senior management, everyone he touches in Everton seems to either get worse by the week (Davies, Schneiderlin, Rooney, Williams, Lookman, etc), wanted to leave the club (Deulofeu, Lukaku, Mirallas, even Barry), or rather rot than play a game with him (Barkley, McCarthy).

I hate the idea that Everton become a "sacking club" but something has to change soon or there may be no alternative to replacing the manager.

People were talking about breaking the Top 4 this season. On the evidence so far, we'll be lucky to finish top half!!

It's time Koeman and Walsh started earning their huge salaries and delivered. If they're not up to it, then let's no waste more time.

Martina was third choice full back at Saints (who finished a sufficient number of points behind us last season despite our lot's dereliction of duty after Easter) so why did we buy him and why does he play ahead of Kenny? It was another example of Koeman being stubborn and complicating what should have been a straightforward issue. He could have brought in Martina but given Kenny a game thus keeping options open and having a barometer to judge Kenny by, but no...

Klaassen has brought nothing thus far. I am not blaming him; the Dutch league is miles off the Premier League now and other Dutch imports have struggled (the striker at Spurs) but yesterday with a pressing Spurs midfield I didn't expect Klaassen – against such a good and aggressive team – to play. I expected to see Davies start because he is box to box and his running, unlike Gana and Schneiderlin, would fend off their press and carry the ball to our forwards.

Also, from a pragmatic standpoint, where was Jags? He's still our best centre half. Williams is 33 so not much younger but played twice in the break for Wales so surely a rested Jags with all his experience and organisation was the better choice?

I also didn't understand why no Calvert-Lewin because the Spurs back three are similar to what City have at the back and Calvert-Lewin was successful against them. He would hopefully create the necessary space up top for a Rooney and / or a Sandro. But no, we had too quite similar players up top that the Spurs defence locked down easily.

Spurs, bigger, stronger and just better players, ruthlessly exploited the holes we left in midfield, turning defence into attack with passes to unmarked players(usually Eriksen, who ran the show). No-one could pick up Alli, and Kane treated Williams like he was an irksome little kid trying to get the ball off him.

Woeful is the only word. No threat in front of goal whatsoever. No energy, no width and no pace. It's going to be a real slog this season by the looks of it.

Williams and Martina shouldn't be picked again, that's how real it was.

Koeman has a bloody cheek talking about raised expectations, he's on £6 million a year. Did he tell Kenwright, "Don't expect any different from what you had with Martinez, but I want twice what he was on anyway!"

Our former manager is doing a darn site better with his current job than Koeman is with his.

It's not us who need to get real, Ronnie boy.

He keeps picking these unbalanced teams and sky-rockets £6m quid in the process. Why is anyone at all defending this guy?

It's obvious what will happen during the game when you see our line-up beforehand, and that's what happens! Where is this surprise element? What a clown. Clueless, indeed.

How embarrassingly ridiculous!

Maybe the most bizarre statement I have read in this season of The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Hammer the fraud turnip! Hang him out to dry with his executioner style smile and all that! Martinize him! Speak gleefully and cheerfully about his record since he hung up his clogs!

But don't write utter drivel – 'All of Koeman's signings except for Gueye have failed' – out-bollocks bollocks.

Challenge for yer, Steavey. I do hope you take it up.

Each one of Koeman's – erm, Walsh's? – signings other than Gueye. Go through them and tell us why they 'have failed'.

And to say that we need a reality check! Cheeky sod, the sooner he's sacked the better.

Two top class strikers (Rooney is past it, Sandro a squad player, Calvert-Lewin will never be good enough)
One top class right-back (Martina is not good enough, Kenny is not ready yet, (uncertain about Coleman's recovery and needs competition)
One top class centre-back (Williams and Jagielka are past it, Funes Mori is a squad defender)
One top class left-back (Baines is past it)

Spurs are nothing special – we just made them look it. No top team in Premier League is special in European terms.

I'm sick of hearing about it. The top 4, I can understand because regular top 4 teams pick up trophies. And get the obvious reward of playing in the Champions League.

But top 6? Am I supposed to be pleased by that? A foreign owner, a big-name manager, sell the best striker we've had in 30 years and ruin one of our own homegrown players – all for a chance of top 6?

This is "knife to a gunfight" bollocks.

In my eyes, it is a very poor leader who deflects blame onto others rather than stands up for his men and takes it on the chin himself. How can the players look him in the eye tomorrow morning and think, "I want to draw blood on Saturday for you"?

I am very worried right now for this season. I had hoped the Europa League games were rustiness. How wrong I was.

He's had that chance – 13 brought in, and plenty spent. He, or other staff, or a combination, didn't or couldn't bring in the most needed players. He's now left with the task of integrating an almost totally new squad of players. Difficult with the best of players at the best of times.

I think he's overreached his own abilities. Bringing in more with Koeman at the helm will now compound the problem, I believe.

For fewest shots on target after four games in fact. 7 shots this team has produced and that tells it own story.

Koeman was wrong on Niassse, he was wrong on Barkley, he has shown mind-blowing ineptitude in every aspect of his job. Some of the players who might offer hope are out on loan. We are utter shite on and off the pitch. Our new owner is an embarrassment every time he utters a word and behind the scene we still have the appalling Kenwright.

As usual, shite, utter shite, in every possible way. Unsworth, an Evertonian, can save our season. He won't get the chance.

After the game, I stayed as normal, chatting football with fellow Blues until around 10:00 pm. The consensus was that Koeman was making dreadful tactical mistakes – pretty down and dark times in The Dark House!

I got home, went to bed and then watched MotD this morning hoping it was a bad dream... no; sadly all true. Then I saw Koeman's interview, saw MotD2 where the panel said he needs time... things need time to work out.

I stayed in all day, a bit tired... grey day – grey clouds, rain, rain, and then around 7:30pm, i looked out of my window over The River – mist and grey clouds... then suddenly a break in the cloud and mist – a little bit of Blue Sky and yes – really – A Rainbow.

Bloody hell – is there no-one at Everton FC that can tell the difference between square and round holes and square and round pegs and fit them in the right place.

4 games into the season and he is basically saying that we are ill equipped to challenge the top 6 under his stewardship. Well I'm sorry but if his ambition is to finish seventh regardless of his penchant for doses of 'realism' I would rather see Everton dispense with his services.

The football is turgid, his demeanour is casual and to be honest he's here only for the handsome pay check. I personally would give David Unsworth a go – could it really be any worse?

But our Ron just doesn't get it, very frustrating and ultimately doomed to failure if he won't change.

All seems a bit familiar, Roberto also had similar problems trying to change tack.

We don't want to be appointing and sacking managers every five minutes, but something has to be done now, while we're early in the season.

The amount of room he had was unbelievable. If he was told to hog the touchline, then Martina should have kept him company, instead of standing 20-30 yards away from him.

You have bought a lot of players since you came to the club and I struggle to find more than 1 or 2 that could play for the top sides. This was the gap the club talked about closing.

Combine that with selling your best player to a team that finished 1 place above you but really want to be a top side and its a recipe for more of the same.

What worries me most is when these signings do hit their top level it will be a good level but still not good enough to play top football.

You signed Schneiderlin who couldn't get in United's team when they were 7th. That set the standard for me and although I do believe Schneiderlin can perform better than the static standard he has set lately, he won't be allowed due to cautious, over drilled, non dynamic tactics set by you, Ronald.

Stay tuned for more future Realism.

I see him playing Thursday for a spell but hardly see him starting at Old Trafford and especially under Koeman.

Have you seen something I haven't?

Where Koeman and I differ though, is that I haven't been manager of the club for a year, and rebuilt the squad at huge expense with the players I wanted. I haven't picked the system, or the team, or the subs.

I haven't spent months knowing it was up to me to work on replacing both our leading scorer and our leading creator of chances in the close season. Koeman has. He's the reason we're nowhere near good enough to crack the top six.

After reading about 3244 posts (excuse the poetic license George) on ToffeeWeb since Saturday's debacle I came across one that made me smile.

Genius or madness – one of the two – but I am still chuckling. Welcome to the Incurable Club.

Play Calvert-Lewin and Kenny at right-back. Give Lookman more time on the pitch and we'll be fine.

It's easier said than done though, cos I don't see Koeman doing the obvious.

What I don't understand is that it was obvious after 5 mins our 4-3-3 was being given a lesson. If we are playing a top team I expect us to sit tight with 4-5-1 and defend deep and hit teams on the break. The other major thing is that plan A wasn't working and he changed the faces but not the tactics.

We have the players to make things uncomfortable for top teams at Goodison but I was shocked at how easy they dismantled us and only for a few great saves from Pickford we would have lost 8 -0 and nobody could complain, the 3-0 flattered us.

On paper, we didn't have anyone in our starting 11 who would get in the Spurs team but the game isn't played on paper and players' and managers' attitudes play a big part. When Martina shit out of that tackle on the edge of our box it was awful to witness the reverse effect of when Neville smashed into Ronaldo.

The bare minimum expected is effort and to a certain degree we did get it just that the managers failure to change the system to make it harder for Spurs made the players look amateurish. Holgate and Kenny should be ahead of Martina and it's pretty obvious that Sandro needs to play on the shoulder of the defender and Klaassen needs to be the free man in a 5-man midfield – that's if they play at all.

Keane and the keeper are really good additions. The rest much of the same but not as good as we already have in Barkley and our Kev. Both blow hot and cold but is the team better than 12 months ago assuming we had the 2 additions I mentioned. Definitely not.

Davies offers more than our new boys, add Barkley and sack the manager, bring in Unssy and that is not a knee jerk suggestion. Koeman's man-management is zero and without it you are doomed.

When the game is ended is not the time to explain where things went wrong. The time for action is when problems were first recognised. eg; It was plain to all except Ronald Koeman that Martina was having difficulty in coping against multiple Spurs players.

Extra training? Practice? Discipline? Effort? Do me a favour – the players' stock answer to that idea is "Call my agent, boss, yer 'avin' a laff!"

Meanwhile, the chairman looks forward to another sale of what remains of his shares, adding way more millions to the £25mill windfall he made when acquiring the initial association with our current major shareholder.

But that guy, Moshiri, won't have made himself a billionaire by backing duds. He'll know what an axe feels like and will have used it many times to get where he is because the one thing guys like that don't allow is for their fortune to diminish on the back of others' under-performance.

Unless they're Ellis Short, Randy Lerner, Mike Ashley and the like of course.

Koeman made a proper balls-up managing things with him – this is just the start of our time without him.

Aimless, brainless, clueless, directionless, emotionless, feckless, gormless, hapless football, from a manager who is completely out of his depth – despite his fabulous pedigree as a player.

Where do we go from here?

You are quite simply not up to the task of managing Everton FC. Having spent a lifetime in a business where man-management was a prerequisite, I can honestly say that to get the best out of your team, you will usually need to be first and foremost a great motivator. You sadly appear incapable of motivating shit off a shovel, let alone a team of highly paid millionaire footballers.

Instead of constantly blaming those who work for you, thus demotivating your workforce, you should be taking a long hard look at your own methods of man-management. You are giving a good impression of someone who is out of his depth in his chosen profession.

You are incapable of seeing what is wrong with the way you are setting up your team and your subsequent in-game management shows a total inflexibility when it comes to making clearly needed changes to your tactics and personnel once it becomes clear your initial Plan A isn't working.

I fear that you are a fraud, who can see what's wrong but isn't either man enough or intelligent enough to do anything about it. You seem to be very good at alienating senior members of your squad and you don't hesitate to air your feelings about their so-called failings in public. Whereas a good manager /motivator would talk about these things in private with the individuals concerned, you act like an authoritarian headmaster, airing your feelings about their shortcomings in the public domain.

Before long, nobody will want to play for you and you will be left with a dressing room full of disgruntled, demotivated, demoralised millionaires who cannot make head nor tail of just what you are expecting from them when you are evidently incapable of yourself knowing what the hell to do to put things right.

Very quickly, you've placed yourself in a similar situation to your predecessor, being intractable, inept, intransigent and inflexible in terms of the requirements expected from someone in such a highly paid position, together with the welter of levels of expectations that go with the job. Your predecessor failed in the end because he refused to admit to his own failings and you are rapidly going down that all too familiar path.

Either change or go, Mr Koeman, because at present you are not showing yourself to be worth £6m per year. More like £6 thousand a year if you are lucky!

Your post match press conference came across as making you look like a man who has backed himself into a corner and is blaming everyone but himself in his desperation to find a way out.

By the way, did you know that Niasse hit two very good goals for the U23s today and also provided an assist and Lookman scored one, too? Be brave, take a chance. Nobody would have a go at you if you tried Niasse up front and it failed to be a viable solution to our striker problems but it would show that you are prepared to try all the options available to you and right now, your options are extremely limited.

Don't close your eyes to the possibility that you may have made a mistake in your original assessment of a player. A big man, a real manager should be prepared to admit his mistakes and take steps to correct those errors.

So the final question is, are you man enough, are you big enough to admit to your own mistakes? If so, are you going to do anything about it, and if not, why not?

You are rapidly losing the fans, and I suspect you are not far away from losing the respect of the players and logically the next step will surely see you losing the respect of your employer, and we all know where that will lead, don't we?

Never seen a contrast like that before a game. At half-past-two expectation was dead and hope was fading.

"Armchair keyboard Warriors in full Cry"!

Just like you, I have supported Everton for 50 years and proud to do so. Your comment is a little annoying as I am sure you will agree you have never seen a team worth that amount of money (none of us have because we have never had that sort of money!) play at Goodison Park and register only one shot on target.

So, if any of the 'Armchair Keyboard Warriors' out there agree with you, Philip,please correct me if I am wrong.

Very good and articulate post, mate. I was very very angry whilst typing mine as apparently I am an 'Armchair Keyboard Warrior'! I think your post covers everything we all need to know and we need change very quickly because Man Utd will absolutely slaughter us based on that pathetic showing against Spurs!

Firstly my expression "Welcome to the Incurable Club". My apologies to any ToffeeWebbers or their families who are suffering with an illness.

Secondly to suggest George might be a genius or mad does him a terrible disservice. George ,you are a lover and true to your principles you found a Rainbow.

"In dark days we will always find a bit of light" – you did and do.

May Whoever, or whatever it is that drives you bless you and give you strength for your journey.

Cosmic grooves of course, all the way!

Of course Spurs are one of the best teams in the country, I'd love to see us at that level, but that doesn't excuse our performance on Saturday, and it's up to the manager and coaching staff to sort it out.

If we're in a similar state in November, maybe, but it's 4 games in and 3 of those were against 3 of the top 4 last season. That does show how far we are behind, definitely, but let's judge the team and manager after 15 games...

I would hope Koeman has learnt from his mistakes but it appears he hasn't. Same formation the players can't understand or play and attacking the squad via the press.

I wasn't able to watch the game so my info was from the live forum which is reliable, if somewhat predictable.

Also live text from BBC and for the second game running the comments were that we hadn't turned up. No defence, formation or plan has also been mentioned this season – for once I don't think it is the usual bias.

Koeman seemed reluctant to join us was my feeling when his name first came up. It looked like it was the cash the changed his mind. I still don't think we should ditch him just yet but I am struggling to continue to disagree with Darren's posts.

But I also believe he does not possess the competence to do the job. He lacks both competence and attitude. He is not professional. He should be replaced, forthwith, by someone who is professional, because professionalism is what our great club needs.

We were told Vlasic can play anywhere across the front line. Also their season has been going longer than ours so he is up to speed and looked good when he came on.

And to say you were surprised by their midfield tactics is basically saying "Pochettino is a way better manager than me".

So stop the lame excuses and pick a balanced side, accept some of your signings will be benched.

The problem is not losing, the problem is not only collecting 4 points from 12. What's the problem? If you can't figure out yourself, I can't help you.

And by the way, he's already had more than 50 games to show what he can do.

I've followed Everton for over 40 years and I've seen more than my fair share of dross as well as some sublime football, however the crowd has in my opinion just got more and more negative.

Yes it's a two-way street, the better display on the pitch you would expect a louder more supportive return from the fans. What about the days when we are struggling and to all intense and purposes we are getting a good hiding? This is when we need to get behind them more than ever. Yes, some of Koeman's team decisions at times are baffling, but that doesn't mean we can't give them a 12th man in the stands.

Any proper football fan should have known Everton always were going to struggle to break into the top six even with all of the new signings. The problem is every team has changed personnel as well, so monetary values of signings won't always equate to instant improvement.

The investment as a club we have made in the future is very promising and only time will tell how the current youth and U23 transfer policies will help us to make that next step. Will it be this season no I'd say highly unlikely, but this is a learning curve and a definite positive step in the right direction.

This is when the expectation and the reality seem to be at polar opposites for some people, with the rest at somewhere in-between. Be realistic – we aren't good enough as a club yet to be challenging as high as we all want to, but the signs of change in the planning are there and I haven't seen it before in my time.

So, yes, am I frustrated too right I am, do I think Koeman has made mistakes? Yes, of course he has., Would we have won the game on Saturday with a change of set-up with the same personnel? We'll never know.

We wanted European football we have it, we want to know how we will perform against our peers, well after Sunday we'll have played five tough Premier League games, three of which will have been away. Manchester City, Chelsea, Manchester United, with Stoke City and Tottenham at home. Getting the squad balance right for these games interspersed with the European games was never going to be easy.

Let's get behind the lads and Koeman because I don't believe for one minute he doesn't want us to win. Yes, mistakes have and will be made again, but this is what we wanted – we are back in Europe so be realistic and enjoy the journey, wherever it takes us. COYB

A poor decision IMO by Palace. They should have won. It was the players yesterday, not the manager.

The first person sold was Lukaku, and why he wasn't replaced is an absolute disgrace. He scored 25 goals last season; where are the goals going to come from?

The only natural replacement we have is 20-year-old Calvert-Lewin, and he left him on the bench against Spurs. His treatment of Niasse is embarrassing, he has to be in the squad Thursday night.

I'm not a fan of Williams, rubbish on Saturday, he played 2 games for Wales in 4 days; Jagielka was fresh, but didn't play him?

His formation as no shape, no pace, no width. He has to change it Thursday night: give Kenny, Lookman, Vlasic, McCarthy (if fit) a game, and play Niasse and Calvert-Lewin up front – we can't be any worse.

I don't recall saying I don't see the problem. The current problems are clear as day. I just don't see how removing Koeman after 4 games this season can be justified.

You quote his previous 50 games; I personally don't think they were that bad – hardly ground breaking or spectacular, and our record in the big games is still very poor, but for me he did okay, given the mess he inherited.

He has to do much more to warrant his huge salary, I agree, and he has made questionable selection decisions, but he (or his team, whichever way you look at it) has brought in some quality players and for the most part under his tenure we've looked solid, fitter and much more like a team than under Martinez.

I argue that he should be given more time before we completely write him off. Otherwise, we end up like Southampton or Palace and replace our manager every season.

Out of interest, who would you replace him with (that would want the job now)?

Things need to improve fast, just having a few shots on goal will help, but for me I'd rather see where we are in November, once things have settled down a bit. That's just me anyway.

Nice to read a realistic post.

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it would be madness to get rid of Koeman now, utter madness.

I also feel that ToffeeWeb readers and posters deserve an article from the writers that provides a balanced assessment of the current structure and approach to recruitment at our club (which should also cover the people involved in the negotiations).

I might remind people that there were a lot of posters on here at the time of Martinez's sacking that wanted Frank de Boer who was sacked after 3 months at Inter and has now been sacked after 4 games at Crystal Palace.

I would be interested to see if any of them now calling for Koeman to be sacked will admit to wanting Frank de Boer. I think it just shows what a hard job managing a Premier League club is. Now, if performances and results don't improve during the season, then I am sure Moshiri will consider his options at the end of the season.

Also, let's not forget, sacking Martinez cost us £10 million – to sack Koeman now will cost us a hell of a lot more.

Calling for Koeman's head now is utter madness. Two really bad performances against top drawer opposition is hardly a good excuse for sacking your manager.

Wait until Christmas and see how the team has bedded in.

However, all of that is theoretical; what we would like to see rather than the fact of what we do see. The fact is, the crowd doesn't do it, and that's unlikely to change, people being people.

Regarding ToffeeWeb, the opinions on here reflect a different animal from the crowd at Goodison Park. There is a range of posting from knee-jerk to analytical, which of course is an attraction of ToffeeWeb. And the posting can come after suitable reflection, in contrast to the immediacy of a Goodison crowd.

Many of the calls on here to get rid of Koeman are not knee-jerk, being, in my opinion, fairly based on evidence and assessment, and from posters having a record of emphasising a need to give him time. It's certainly not unreasonable to propose that he be replaced, given the apparent issues with his competence in tactics and his approach to man-management, the evidence for which has been accumulating steadily.

I agree that Koeman doesn't set out to lose matches. But that's not the point. The point is about competence and attitude, the two basic components of professionalism, surely required of a £6M/year manager.

We created nothing against Chelsea, and Spurs could have scored 4 or 5 more goals on Saturday.

His team selection, no pace, no width – we made Ben Davies look like Gareth Bale, he had so much space, it was embarrassing.

He has to take the blame – not bullshiting us about a reality check.

One would assume that there must be communication between Koeman (or at the very least Dunc) and Unsworth, and surely these blokes must exchange ideas and views. Is Koeman so intransigent that he will not accept critique or embrace the ideas of anyone else? I know it is a given that a first team coach these days must be pretty thick skinned but the evident stubbornness of our last two managers is somewhat irritating.

I am not screaming "Koeman Out" yet, and there is no way that is going to happen anytime soon, however loud we shout, but have been somewhat reticent ever since his first announcement if I'm honest with myself, despite being excited by his prospect, in true blue tinted fashion.

We have had a couple of demonstrations of what we can produce since the start of last season – as indeed we did under Roberto Martinez – but those disappointingly would appear to have been flashes in the pan, because what we are witnessing right now has been evolving for months and months – not just this season.

It is true that Lukaku's goals themselves in simplistic terms did not affect our league position but undoubtedly his presence on the pitch, even on his sulky days, occupied opposition defences allowing us to produce from other areas. It is inexcusable that we simply do not have anyone on our books who can provide that for us now other than perhaps Calvert-Lewin.

A Benteke, Giroud, Dembele, Llorente (will he ever get a game for Spurs?) might not have produced the same wealth of goals but they would have been that figure to distract and occupy opposition defenders, and indeed aim for. All our team right now sit in midfield and seem to give the impression they will be fined if they stray into the opposition penalty area or, horror of horrors, try a shot from range. We must be so easy to defend against.

The next four games will tell us much I think. An unknown quantity to some degree in Italy, a tough game away at Old Trafford, what should be straight-forward progress in the league (or whatever it is) cup and a banker for three points against Bournemouth. The latter are under-performing just now and Sod's Law – they will start to turn it around at Goodison on the 23rd, and if it all turns to shit over the next 12 days (and we must win at least two out those four games) the fallout doesn't bear thinking about.

I would love to see what Unsworth could do with the players on our books but it isn't going to happen anytime soon, I think, even fearing the worst over the next couple of weeks, so as fans we have to try and stick right behind Koeman and just hope he can work with what he's got, listen to his colleagues and get things back in tune.

We all have different standards obviously. I wouldn't sack him for bottling against 10 men City or bending over for Spurs and Chelsea. I would sack him for the calibre of player we have signed. And Walsh.

It was a game on paper Everton may not have won anyway but the performance was diabolical. No intensity, no plan, no confidence and no problem to Spurs at all.

Gueye, Klaassen and Sandro should be dropped for starters for the Man Utd game.

Moshiri is announced as a Person with Significant Control (PSC) on the Companies House website. Among other things this gives him the power under company law to exercise influence over the running of the club and the right to remove members of the board of directors.

Interesting that this should happen now, and it will be interesting to see the impact on the make-up of the board, especially with rumours of Kenwright vetoing the signing of a striker for example.

It means, as far as I understand it, he can now more easily legally intervene in the affairs of the board in the day-to-day running of the club, without operating as an illegal shadow director, as per good old Sir Shifty was rumoured to do, or intervene as a shareholder with the rigmarole that that can entail.

I'm a bit rusty on Company Law these days!

Watch this space I guess.

Rooney, Sigurdsson, Sandro and Klaassen should not all be starting together – they proved against Spurs it just did not work; we looked lost, had no idea of who had what role and there was just no outlet

I think a max of two of those players should be on the pitch at any given time unless he plays only one defensive midfielder and Klaassen plays alongside him.

The team I'd like to see on Thursday would be:

Pickford
Martina, Jagielka, Keane, Baines
Gueye, Davies
Lookman, Sigurdsson, Vlasic
Calvert-Lewin

How can you assess our buys... just 4 games into the season? Especially when the majority of them are 21 or younger! On top that of that, Gueye, Lookman and Calvert-Lewin look to be great signings.

Koeman is letting us down with his tactics but these threads are becoming hotbeds of idiocy. Someone is apparently convinced Spurs won't win anything this season too – if only we had this poster's crystal ball.

We are all unhappy with Koeman but he needs time before we can determine his lot with certainty – the signings, many of whom are 21 or younger, need longer yet. We cannot know what they will become 4 games into season, during which we played the top 3 from last season.

Imo, give Koeman until the next international break (early November). If we are poor then then, put Unsworth in change to assess him and potential replacements.

Schneiderlin for instance who you lot love like he is Peter Reid the 2nd. How are Man Utd that stupid they sell him when they are 7th to us with no battle from any other club. Why? Because we are 7th now and he cannot play to a higher standard than that. He can play better though no doubt.

We needed players that are ready now, not in 5 years. I am also sick of your Under-23s shout its ridiculously boring. I don't have an Under-23s season ticket. While you're being brilliantly patient, this club needs wins now. How many have we won since March, Jim?

We have not bought anyone that can get into a top 4 side. Maybe Pickford. The kids, who we hardly see but for some reason you keep referring too, are not ready... so answer this Jim:

If we don't win anything within 2 years and Davies or Lookman are looking great and Man Utd and Man City want them... What happens?

We need results from very, very well-paid people, now!

We have managed to offload some deadwood from the playing staff, but also, we have loaned out some useful options. The quality of player is arguably better than last season, but the big difference is losing Lukaku without someone who is even likely to score half of his goals.

Many others have also pointed out the lack of balance. One of the most annoying traits of Martinez was his playing people out of position, and it seems that Koeman is doing the same. Good sides have good balance. This side is a work in progress.

I would suggest that Rooney was brought in, in an attempt to placate the fanbase with the impending departure of Lukaku in mind. Koeman was obviously under the impression that his choice, Giroud, was in the bag, and Ronald happily jetted off to catch some rays confident in his board/Walsh making the deal. Imagine his surprise when the Frenchman's lady decided to put the copper nail in the deal.

It is a massive fuck-up. Someone got the wrong end of the stick funny really, just like with Barkley's transfer to Chelsea/Spurs. Communications are obviously not great at EFC. You can't blame all of this on deadline day chaos – the said deal had been mooted in the media for weeks. The whole thing undermines the start of the season.

Rooney hasn't helped matters, and looked out of sorts on Saturday. However, even considering that Koeman has been let down by his board, the recruitment of so many number tens is baffling. The insistence of playing Rooney as well as Sigurdsson & Klaassen is also strange. Rooney is a big name, and Ronald is afraid of upsetting him, so others are sacrificed.

Tactically we remain in the Jurassic period, when other sides have moved into the Cretaceous. I have hope that, once we play some ordinary sides, the team will improve and greater understanding will develop, but the trip to Old Trafford will surely mean yet more misery and the sight of our former Tyrannosaurus running riot against our slow, leaf-munching defence.

How do you know that Kenwright doesn't like Koeman's personality? If he doesn't like him, surely he'd be pressing to relieve him of his duties, even this early on in the season.

Last time I looked, Kenwright was still chairman. After all, Palace have sacked De Boer today, only 4 games in, and while at the moment, we're not that bad, we aren't that far behind them.

Stop speculating about things you've no idea about. You know as much as the next fan on here about the running of the club, ie, zilch.

Thank fuck people as short-sighted as you are not in charge of our football club. Our only chance of bridging in the gap is investing in top youth talent, who will have an effect on our club in the next 2-3 years and beyond.

Pickford, Onyekuru, Davies, Holgate, Lookman, Vlasic have the ability to become top 4 players. Did Spurs make the step overnight? No – they did it through the emergence of several big youth talents with the team and tactics to sustain them. That has to be our model, and we may need a better manager to do it. Spurs did try to buy looks of talents at one point in time – and they brought a lot of inferior players, and needed Pochettino to transform them into a sustainable and progressive team.

We don't need impatient day--dreaming and toys being kicked out the pram and signings judged 4 league games into the season. It's embarrassing.

Go on, tell me he wanted to go. Will your grandkids be so patient in 15 years when we still can't buy top 4 players?

Throwing toys out of prams. Are you a PE teacher... The lack of success we have had and snobs come out with shit like that.

Not good enough.

Inexcusable.

Bournemouth and Burnley at the end of the month will be crucial fixtures at home.

Make no mistake – if the same side/attitude shows up as on Saturday, we won't be winning them games either. But it is a good opportunity to gain some momentum and confidence.

Also I'm hoping for some sort of response and a better balanced team against Man Utd on Sunday. Win, lose or draw, I want to see motivation and passion for 90 mins.

Most teams play the possession game, some to contain a better opponent and get one point at least and others who are good sides because they have a superior offensive outlet to use in order to win the game. Everton fall into neither of these categories at present.

It's hard to see what Koeman's strategy is. Basically the whole team played way below par against Spurs and that was totally unacceptable for a home game in front of the faithful.

Answer me this – when have I brought up the stadium plans? How does my criticism of Koeman but plea for a realistic long term strategy constitute a love-in? Does it make it easier arguing against the fictional ideas you create than the genuine ideas espoused?

And why on earth would you follow the logic that Schneiderlin is not good enough because he didn't play in a team that finished above us. Seriously?! You are 36 not 10. You remember Lukaku right? That Belgium striker insulted by some impatient naysayers because he wasn't good enough for Mourinho at Chelsea? Or Arteta? He must have been bad, because he couldn't make it at top teams and no one else came in for him.

There are a string of recent Everton players, better than several of those in our squad and team atm, that prove how illogical that point is. Can we stop spouting such rubbish on these forums?

And I'm 30, so it would be quite a stretch to see grandchildren in 15 years. Still, I expect I'd see grandchildren before I see you coin a properly nuanced, considered, and intelligent post.

Btw – I wonder what would have happened to Leicester, if they had decided to sack Walsh when they were struggling in 2015? Because apparently some of his signings hadn't come off yet.

Get a grip.

We've been lucky too. A deflected Baines goal; Sigurdsson a one-in-a-million goal... so disappointed.

Whilst long term investment can be prudent I cannot agree we bought top, top talent. Otherwise they'd be in the first XI.

The plethora of U23 signings and academy products are there in the main to make a profit. Look back and see how many actually make it out of our academy (rumoured to be one of the best) and become a star. Not many.

It's just a investment strategy as the mark up on young players is very good. Sure we might get one come through.

Of the first team squad players you mention, I'd be surprised if more than one has a stellar career to match your idea of bridging the gap. Just numbers, Jim, sadly, just maths.

Most not all, but most players of the calibre we seek are that good from day one. It is a globalised world which has radically affected the premier league, a plan of which you speak is largely redundant. It has to be in the here and now. It's often more efficient to rip it all up and start again than fix, or improve or bodge what you have.

Sorry, Jim, I think that train of thought is dated. And for the record I too used to think along the same lines as you.

That's just one of the reasons Everton are so far behind other teams. Outdated thinking. For example replacing a manager this early might seem anathema to many Evertonians but it is conventional & romantic. Not business by-words to live by.

For my money, there is a strong team in there amongst a very unbalanced squad; this manager, however, is not the solution. Time to rip it up and start again.

Indeed the extra money flooding into the game gives the clubs the chance to pay off the contracts of managers who have a bad run. A few years back we would have baulked at paying off the salary of managers early into their contracts.

The exposure of the Premier League on a global level not only attracts players to come to us (whatever they say, they are then in the shop window to the biggest clubs), it also attracts managers who are also on the career ladder.

Our very own Dutchman simply cannot help but mention his beloved target of one day being manager of Barca!

It is perhaps cynical to suggest that the hoovering-up of under 20's talent to play in our teams , is simply to cash-in on them, and some of them will make the grade.

However, what is perhaps worrying is the net spend in the transfer market. We obviously missed the main target but the Barkley deal was an attempt by the club to get in more money which perhaps was earmarked for the Giroud deal.

Despite the Sky money and our new shareholder, funds are not being pumped into the team . I know that huge sums are needed for wages and running costs too, but we certainly are not spending anywhere near the amounts of the top 4 teams.

For all of the media bluster about our early shopping, the harsh reality is plain to see. The team has a plethora of decent pros, a few promising youngsters one or two over the hill but is lacking in pace and power as well as width.

Koeman seems honest when it comes to apportioning blame for our defeats but always fails to hold his hand up and admit his tactical flaws or poor team balance.

Perhaps we will scrape by till the January window, with Calvert-Lewin and Sandro and all of our number tens. Then we might pick up a decent target man. However our failure in the market may well mean an exit from the Europa and us losing too much ground in the league, so that we won't be such an attractive destination for our much needed centre forward.

I asked the question about Tom Davies if we don't win anything and Man Utd fancy him. Or any other Under-23 for that matter. Do we say "You're staying here and being patient"?

I have seen nothing in my time to suggest signing Under-23s that are not good enough yet is the way forward. It's bizarre, in fact.

And to praise Steve Walsh for Leicesters choice of player means nothing to us. He still hasn't signed anyone for us better than Vardy. How many Under-23s play in Koeman's team? Is there a list of all the shite Walsh signed for Leicester?

If this all turns out to be a fantastic 3-year plan, I will hold my hand up and say I was too harsh but I doubt I will have to.

Thank you, John Pierce. It is outdated. Man City didn't waste time doing that did they?

That's the frustration. If you are trying to build and can't sign class, keep the class you already have.

Okay, he recouped a lot of it back with the Lukaku sale but he's spent a lot of money on what at this moment (Pickford and Keane apart) look like ordinary players. The only person who has let Koeman down is Koeman himself.

I think in fairness to Koeman, he has played Tom Davies, Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Ademola Lookman.

We can go on and on about Rooney, Klaassen and Sigurdsson, everyone knew except Koeman they all play in the one position. He was adamant he wanted Sigurdsson, it took 4 weeks to finally get him.

He had the whole summer to replace Lukaku – not the last day of the window.

I don't think we could afford to pay Koeman off either. Is Koeman the highest paid manager in the world or something silly like that?

Let's assume we did a Crystal Palace and pressed the eject button on Ronald Koeman, the new guy would be stuck with a load of crap to work with. Unsworth needs to be brought in as he knows the club inside out. Unsworth could integrate the Under-23s with the main squad also.

It really is a grim thought to think of Koeman staying here, destroying morale and the promising young players we have at the club. This is the Everton FC we are all used to, isn't it? Crush the fan base at every turn with shite managers, false promises and clueless running of the club. Thanks Bill – you're a legend.

Arteta we bought from Real Sociedad and, yes, he was rejected by Barcelona. I wonder how poor a side they were when he was rejected at the biggest club in the world?

A whole world of difference from Schneiderlin who played in Man Utd's worst team in years and couldn't oust a 35-year-old Carrick before being sold.

They don't rest on laurels. For us, it's Schneiderlin, he's good. He will do in that role for at least 3 years. Let's buy some kids that can replace the likes of him.

Again, I believe it's now or never to throw yourself into the big pond. By the way, I don't doubt for a minute the tactics you pointed out are a factor and these players can perform better but I still think there was an easier route than 10 kids. 10 ready made and sell your best.

We could have halved that total and bought 3 players of at least Sigurdsson's quality.

There appears to be more afoot than Koeman selections and tactics, bad though they are at the moment,to me.

I have a feeling that Martinez and Kenwright had given Lukaku an undertaking that he could leave this summer and not all was revealed to Koeman.

I also wish to correct those suggesting that Koeman failed to replace Lukaku. I bet he wished he had that authority and I'm sure we would have ended up with a top quality centre-forward. As it was the decision making and negotiations were left with Billy boy and we all know how that went.

For the record we lost Kone, Valencia and Lukaku and only brought in Sandro. Why we couldn't have brought a fall back guy like Defoe or Chris Woods or Llorente in puzzles me.

Yes, Everton can play as many midfield players all over the pitch but they have to be aggressive not pussyfooting around as they were last Saturday.

It not cynical to suggest a player academy which is there to create profit. Because I think the club are being exactly that.

The model is well embedded in a club like Chelsea. Much maligned and rightly so, I think it's stunting football to hoover up potential and, once it's established they won't make it, sell with a decent mark up.

Everton are following suit, as the market and regulations allow it.

Even relatively small fry make for good profit, crucially that player trading profit sits outside FFP.

Take Calvert-Lewin, bought for c £1M, let's say he doesn't make it with Everton. His re-sale will easily be around £10M. That's £9M we can funnel back into wages and transfers.

If Everton are as ambitious as they say (I'm not sure they are based on a poor window), then they will ask Koeman to go on a golfing holiday, permanently.

I don't go in for the "we're Everton, NSNO, we are a breed apart" and the like. However, one thing I am sure about the Everton fans is they detest bullshit (it did for Martinez in the end).

Honest Ron is in in danger of loosing his tag whilst patronising the fan base with his dishonest appraisals.

Here is a manager who has spent probably triple than any manager before him and has already decided the team is not good enough to compete with the top six. No chairman should allow a manager to keep coaching a team when he has already conceded.

Also, of all the players who took part on Saturday, how many are capable of winning their share of arial duels? I can come up with two, maybe three and none of them are forwards.

Someone at the club spent £150m on new players – surely they could have spent a few quid on a player who can head the ball.

The Spurs centre-backs must have thought it was Christmas on Saturday and we are going to the Land of the Giants next week.

Oliver this is the second time in a week that you have made a huge claim – actually claims last time – without a single shred of support apart from the usual suspect – someone I know and I can't give you their name.

This would seem to be something that you like to do.

So, can you now give us in convincing chapter and verse exactly how you know that Kenwright "does not like Koeman's personality one bit"?

I think it's you that is being ridiculous. You should not need a crystal ball to realise that Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, etc, are not going to be as good as Lukaku, Barkley and Stones. And if they happen to have some massive improvement they will be sold anyway.

I like how you gloss over losing top-quality players and don't mention the poor signings of Williams, Martina, and Stekelenburg. Give Klaassen and Sandro time, I agree, but shouldn't we have players in who could play now?

Some nutters on here probably think Schneiderlin is better than Fellaini as well. What a dog he is. Williams, Schneiderlin, Bolasie, and Stekelenburg have all had time. Explain them signings to me.

Sigurdsson ain't gonna pull up any trees either and he's the best player, Rooney excluded, to play now, today.

I'd like to win games now – not grow players for other teams. Arsenal have been building for years – it never happens... and we are buying worse than them.

For some, the problem is putting those selected in wrong positions. For others it's the tactics used with those selected. For others it's selection: either this or that individual from the first team squad should be played instead of some other(s); or it's let's get more U23s in (Feeney, Baningime, Jones etc). For others it's who's been bought. For others it's a question of time.

And, of course, varying combinations of the above. Interesting threads, if nothing else.

Have I missed any factors in this "simple" problem? Oh for the wisdom to identify the causes and answers. I'm resigned to several more months of Koeman, though I wonder if selection and tactics will change. Bumpy ride!

He's a good target for when things go wrong but the reality is that he is a minority shareholder and from what I read only helping out with the transfer to the new ownership team. He's a luvvie not a business negotiator.

If there is a target for responsibility in transfer dealings, then it is Walsh who is Director of Football.

Now he may be a minority shareholder but I believe he continues to run the club on a day-to-day basis and he is still in charge of transfers. Love him or hate him, he's still pulling the strings at Goodison.

Unlike all those of other Premier League clubs who've produced their own home-grown "world beaters" this century, such as... – well I'll leave you to give us that long list (I know, they're all in that great England side, I just can't remember their names).

What has been even more depressing, is that when we did find one in Lukaku, we couldn't hang onto him. Not only that, but a lot of fans were happy to see him go, because he was 'lazy' and he only scored 'easy' goals. How many top half clubs would have sold their main striker without buying in another? Not many.

Just goes to show money isn't everything. It all depends whose spending it!

So, Koeman identifies what he wants (either he already has a name, or he asks Walsh to identify somebody who meets the spec) and hands the name to Bill to then negotiate a deal (given free rein to do so by Moshiri).

For whatever reason, Bill might not fancy said name and argues that "I tried my best but Arsenal didn't want to part, or the player didn't want to come, or I couldn't get the price down").

Pure speculation... but as everybody else is speculating...

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2017/9/11/16280756/moshiri-documents-filing-person-significant-control-everton-kenwright-blocked-transfers-barton

My own feelings on the situation are that Koeman is more a hindrance than a help and I think the sooner he's departed the better.

I do believe though that too many don't want to admit, that the main reason that we have not won a trophy of any description for 20+ years is because our first eleven and others in our squad are simply (with the odd exception) not of the quality required to push our way regularly into the Premier League top 6. A cup is a possibility if we were to draw lucky and string a few above average performances together, but we haven't even managed that.

It's a bitter pill to swallow but they have the power to attract top players and the power to outspend us that we just cant match. Unfortunately, I can't see much changing soon.

Also Koeman was quoted as saying that when he queried the Sigurdsson transfer deal, that Kenwright had told him he had to be patient and progress was being made.

Kenwright certainly seems to be in charge of transfer deals, which was also stated shortly after Moshiri took over.

Saying that Kenwright pulls the strings still at Everton and is therefore the problem is for me far too simplistic and just gives an easy route in the blame game. Everton is a club in trouble, possibly at war with itself; poor decisions on transfer targets (Walsh's domain), poor tactics on the field (Koeman's domain), and lack of leadership from the top (Moshiri's domain) are all potential reasons.

If Bill is responsible for negotiations then it is for players selected by others and he has no influence on how they play. I don't see how being responsible for transfer negotiations, even if true, can make Kenwright responsible for buying bad players or naïve tactics on the field. If he's guilty of anything it is only in overpaying for average players but perhaps that is what happens when you buy early?

Fine to apportion blame when it is appropriate but whatever happens, Kenwright will be the Bogey Man for some. In this instance I'm not sure. Looking back I believe that Moyes actually did well with limited resources but that we have made 2 disastrous choices in Managers. Martinez set in motion a rot that Koeman seems to be continuing. It's not a case of "we could be in trouble"... we are IMHO in deep trouble now.

Do we bay for sacking at this point or should we remember how dreadful Kendall and Ferguson did for at least 2 years? I have no answer, Colin.

The main problem with the club at the moment is there is no philosophy implanted into this team. We aren't a possession-based side because 51% possession at home clearly shows that isn't the strength. We can't have a long ball philosophy because we don't have a target man. We definitely aren't a counter-attacking team because we don't play pace or power. To me this is the main problem.

Walsh at Leicester, it was very clearly what they where, they where a counter attacking team. Knowing that must make it easier for them to identify their targets and bring them in.

If Walsh isn't in charge of this football club as being a 'director', I would like somebody to tell me what he actually does.

He brought Stekelenburg to the club, a comfort blanket / spy in the camp and was deemed not fit to play in the Prem before he came to us.

He brought Cuco Martina, who is a Championship player His brinksmanship and tactical know-how appears to be missing.

He appeared to take no shit last year whilst having to endure Martinez's players blaming them all without exception " not my team".

Now he is starting to use bullshit just like Martinez for his failings blaming the formation of Spurs " not helping the situation" or words to that effect.

He has single-handedly destroyed Ross's confidence and wants a true blue to want away from the club. Love Ross or loathe him, he's an Evertonian who is desperate to get away. "Why is that ?"

He signed Williams. Enough said.

His football has been dire so far.

He has asked for players who fill the same role to be signed up.

He has failed to land a striker and I blame him for that because he has focussed too much on other midfielders.

He was desperate to get Wayne back. I'm not a big fan of young Wayne. My opinion, I know most on here love him.

I'm sure he will be given more time but I'd happily take someone else right now, he's lost the fans already and the dressing room might be split too. We have a team somewhere in this squad. He can't seem to find it.

Kenwright was desperate to get Rooney back and cost us £10 million in the process and Kenwright is desperate for Barkley to stay.

Any manager would want to have Rooney in their squad because of what he can offer in experience alone , but I disagree with you that Koeman was "desperate" to get Rooney.

Why does Barkley want to leave? You can take your pick from all the rumours flying, but I will stick with "It's all about the money" and he wants more.

Anybody agree with the Palace manager being sacked?

From what I remember, the only thing said was that he was responsible for negotiations and even that isn't fact.

Oliver @218,

How do you know that Kenwright was desperate to get Rooney back and that he is desperate for Barkley to stay?

A taxi driver told me, Martin, and they know everything!

Sorry if that came across badly but I genuinely wanted to know the background.

Surely you'd agree that we shouldn't state as fact anything unless it is fact or unless there is weight of evidence to support it?

I think it was a bit unfair to sack him today. They were really unlucky not to at least draw at Burnley yesterday. You can't blame the manager for an awful back pass, or the really bad misses by Benteke and Dann.

At the very least, Palace could have waited until after the next four games when they will still be in the bottom three, possibly still with zero points, after they have played the Sinbads, Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea. At least they probably would have had justification to sack him after losing seven, or even all, of the first eight games.

Martin, well I can't provide evidence, but I believe the person who knows told me.

He might be in charge of negotiations, but was it Bill who wanted Martina, Williams, Klaassen and Sigurdsson? Get a grip – Ronald is boss. Bill's biggest wish, in my opinion, was too try and keep Barkley.

Four games is a blink of an eye!

Rijkard
Gullit
Der Boer
Koeman

😜

I can – Pickford – hes much better than the clown in goal across the park. Keane – he's more than a cut above the so called centre halves across the park and in my opinion better than the 3 regulars at Man City and those at Arsenal except for Koscelny.

Most players, clubs like ours buy, cannot get a move to a top six side, otherwise they would do it. Even the top six sides didn't get everyone they wanted – Sanchez, Barkley, Van Dijk to name just three. Why Pickford and Keane were ignored amazes me but gladdens me also, as we got them.

Klasssen was the key stone of Ajax, who reached the Europa League Final.
Sandro scored goals in La Liga not an easy thing to do unless you are playing for a top team in that league. Both these players can play football and score goals – they need time and patience from us.

Rooney is a name, a big big name – any other player getting pissed and trying it on whilst his wife was away, wouldn't have got a mention in most papers. Rooney is proven in EPL, scores goals, creates goals and leads on the field.

Sigurdsson was over priced but we need his abilities – he's played 2 full games, with no preseason, no wonder he didn't cover himself in glory on Saturday.

Martina was bought as a squad player – an established full back was never going to come to us, with Seamus on his way back, especially in a World Cup year.

Time and patience people. Kendall got it, when I and many others felt he had lost the plot and didn't have a clue. Alex Ferguson would not have brought all the success to Man Utd if the board had listened to the fans, who wanted him out, because he got rid of Robson and McGrath et al. Even Moyes got time at Goodison.

I too am not happy with Koeman at present but our club has been a mess for years if not decades. I don't want a few good years, followed once again by years of crap. I want sustained success and you get that by building solidly and moving forward slowly at first but moving forward for all that. Exactly what Spurs are doing under Levy. They for me are the role model we need to follow and eventually overtake, I know I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

We have been given the worst set of fixtures I, for one, can ever remember to start the season and we have a real tough one on Sunday. Something tells me the lads will be up for this one, as I reckon a few of them will want to stuff the crap, Lukaku came out with every time he went to play for Belgium, ie "I want a big club", right back down his throat. I for one will be cheering them on and I guess you will too. It's what we do because We Are Everton!

If Bill was in Game of Thrones, he'd be Cersei without a doubt.

Some of the managerial decisions have been dire – notably starting both Klaassen and Sandro against Spurs and subbing them at half time; certainly not the way to build confidence in young players who are new to the league and the country.

I'd also question loaning out Dowell who is the only naturally left sided midfielder on the books. We have certainly signed too many comparable midfielders – who seem to be tripping over each other – yet the side lacks width and pace. All of us can see that a Calvert-Lewin and Sandro combination is at least worth trying. We have a talented young right back who sits out games while a Southampton cast off is played.

I suspect Koeman will go if Everton are knocked out of Europe and struggle in the league come December. As others note, he is a mercenary and will depart without much fuss if his contract is paid off. No doubt he'll continue if we stagger into the next phase of Euro vase and sit in the top half of the table. Whether Everton continue with him till the following season if we finish 8th or so is another question. I suspect not and this is probably his most likely end.

The people at the top have invested heavily in an enterprise for the long-term, albeit the stadium costs are confidential to all parties paying a whack.

As you say, we have bought good players for the now and near future. It's up to the manager to figure a way to maximise what he has until such time as he gets what he also rightly wants, namely a proper centre-forward and left-back, and then he's surely set for an attack on the top four.

Our first five fixtures would have daunted any team from the champions downwards but the acid test for Koeman comes between now and Christmas. Four points from four games is what we already have, having played three of the top teams. That will avoid relegation in itself if it goes on but we surely have to massively improve our potency and results against the so-called lesser sides even if we don't have the dogs chunks of a centre-forward who'll integrate with the many goal-scoring midfielders and strikers now at our disposal.

If we truly have ambition, and presumably Moshiri has, then even if Koeman isn't sacked now, there is a case for not leaving it much longer if there is not significant progress on the pitch. I would be surprised if Koeman lasts beyond Christmas. If results don't improve but he isn't sacked by then, it will indicate to me that this is the same old Everton, with no real ambition.

He plays them when he has no other choice. Calvert-Lewin only got a chance against city because Sandro was injured. MotM and you'd think he might keep his place... not a chance next 2 matches he's benched and forced to watch Sandro stink the gaff out.

Kenny star man for England U21s, picked ahead of the kopite Trent lad who plays every week for Liverpool by the way. Might as well be a plumber as far as Koeman is concerned.

Lookman. Doesn't even make a bench with Mirallas on it after Koeman publicly washed his hands of him. Goes on to run riot against Spurs U23s for Unsworth with our good old friend Oumar.

Times and expectations have changed massively. The whole mechanics and machinations around football ownership and wealth have radically changed what constitutes patience or reason.

Patience is for teams with little or no ambition. Everton have in most cases given their managers time, mmm! So why not reflect the changing times and remove the man in charge?

By doing so the club remain in control of the situation. Sure it might not work out but decisive beats dithering any say of the week.

If Everton haven't stacked Koeman's contract with performance markers in exchange for that juicy £6M a year he gets then that's their problem. A lesson to learn.

So of they have to pay bumper compensation, then tough, more lessons to learn.

If Everton haven't got a succession plan, then again triple tough. They fucking should do for a business that turns over £100M plus per annum. I bet they don't. A touch of wild speculation to liven my rant up.

Really those less inclined to shove Koeman of the cliff. Would you miss him and his 'brand' of football if he left tomorrow?

Everton's best footy combines silk of the artist and the steel/heart of the athlete. Everton's best teams have had both.

Not on here so much but I've had a problem since he played Bolasie week in / out and blocked Barkley and Mirallas and we struggled. The Watford away match really annoyed me.

Then we had 2 good months earlier in the year which secured 7th and the side went into semi-retirement post-Easter.

For me, when a team ends the season that badly, it won't start the next well. This was worsened by our fixture list. I'm sorry, but I just see the glass ceiling with Koeman already. Under Moyes with some money, I genuinely think we might have won a cup or got back into the Champions League. Under Martinez... maybe a cup? But under Koeman and him having resources those others could only dream of, we are basically going to finish where Moyes took us in 2003 with a motley crew.

The board won't remove Koeman, it's too pricey and they are just not like that, but for me we should have him out. But who comes in? I actually preferred Frank De Boer but he's had a nightmare albeit at two clubs which are eccentric. Eddie Howe? I suspect the Bournemouth bubble has burst, he is an Everton fan but last time he moved North it ended badly. And then the manager of that club he went to: Sean Dyche. Or Unsworth?

I'm being silly because unless we go on some terrible losing streak, which I cannot see our players doing once the harder fixtures have passed, Koeman will remain in place and we will continue to lament this bang-average manager's decisions.

Tuchel would be a dream.

Unsworth could work very well but could also be a disaster.

In my opinion, it'd be a worthwhile gamble, but if we were able to get him as manager there would surely be a number on here complaining that he doesn't bend over backwards to please whichever players inevitably would come to the press and complain about his style.

What a relief it would be to see an Everton team that has a clear tactical approach. Ultimately, I doubt the board would be willing to take the risk even if it became clear Tuchel was interested.

That would now be twice on this thread and three times in a week, mate.

You haven't answered my request – #194.

This is so rich.

'Here we go again... A taxi driver told me, Martin, and they know everything!'

Three times in a week, Oliver.

Sometimes if someone tells you something, but asks you not to tell anyone that it was them that told you, does that mean they are implicitly saying you can tell others, as long as you don't reveal it was them that told you?

Because sometimes when I'm at a meeting or presentation at the embassy in the country where I work, it's under Chatham House rules – you can repeat what you heard, but cannot say where you heard it or who said it.

Years ago I used to get "tips" about Everton from former players/managers, journalists, even a football agent. Did they really know or was it just their opinion? Or did someone else tell them and they embellished it a bit?

But on this site, if you don't give the name, email address, phone number of the person who told you then you have no credibility...

To Oliver – learn your lesson lad, don't post this on a public forum, stick to discussing with colleagues mates.

To Oliver – learn your lesson lad, don't post this on a public forum, stick to discussing with colleagues mates.

Amen to the last sentence. I think that was my point.

But feck it Matt let's let someone - everyone - dance on here with this watery stuff 3 times in 7 days or once in a week, whatever ,..,...

Your work analogy is ridiculous, by the way. In work we are accountable. Here, folk can just make shit up if they wish and – erm – who holds them accountable?

Answer, us.

Such a beneficent framework for honest, well-intentioned, non-manipulative communication... or so I heard from someone, somewhere.

You are spot-on, Colin, but a little too polite, calling him a sly old fox. I would use stronger words like an evil conniving bastard who has conned Evertonians for many years. He is using Moshiri like he used Paul Gregg, get his investment in the club then piss him off.

Bullshit Bill has lied about investments, new grounds and many other things, but he is still in complete control.

He is the last man standing since he took over in 1999 and we have won nothing ever since. So, before we drive our present manager and players out, let us make a stand and put the blame where it belongs.

I just wondered how we know Bill is still in complete control? I would feel silly making a stand if it turned out otherwise and Moshiri was really the one in control (ie, he has the most shares). Nah, that would be silly.

Look at all the medals the kids have won lately – be it with Everton or England. Unsworth seems to have installed a winning mentality there. A first step on your way to success.

Remember what Carragher said about our players? That's Koeman. Resigned to be 7th and not winning a cup.

I'm not saying Unsworth is the answer as he is a huge gamble. But give him a bit of time short-term to see what happens.

I always wanted Joseph to play for us in some capacity but that never happened; at least we could get him in as assistant manager.

More than ever today, just how does a club gauge who is the right man? Selected too, from who's available at any given time. It almost makes a case for allowing the longer term development of a devil-you-know in many ways choice, such as Unsworth – providing Premier League safety is not at risk.

We read yesterday that he had already upset the gaffer by pushing Kenny's case for inclusion in the first team which, if true, will have put him on the danger list!

So shhhhh.... he's OUR secret!

I have a theory about why Kenwright runs a football club and is a successful businessman while his critics just pay to watch.

And expecting a statement like that to be taken seriously.

Up your game, get the right players in the team playing in their best positions, and play to their strengths — or pack your brand of shite total football in your bags and do one!

Amazing what a multi-million pound cheque can do to one's slovenly, unkempt, "look at me – I'm sick", appearance. Wake up and smell the coffee. This fella has been taking us for a ride for decades now.

This is like the same old nonsense of Bill's Mortgage etc. Until I can prove he didn't, I can't really argue. My next door neighbour had breast cancer at 68 and at 73 now she looks fantastic.

Cut out the shit about a person's health that you can't prove and want to spice up to make your point feel important. It's the kind of shite my ma and her smoking mates liked to gossip about years ago.

It's been a while since I've seen such consistent and almost universal togetherness among TW members. Even in the worst times under Roberto, there was always a significant minority who would defend our former manage.

I see no evidence of any such support for Koeman who it seems to be agreed, has cocked up royally in every aspect of his management of the team. That says a lot about the general feeling, not just here, but if translated to the general fan base, must make Koeman our least popular manager, ever!

He has made no connection with the club, or the fans who turn up every week ready to watch and support the team he constantly refers to as 'Everton' rather than 'us' or 'we' which we might expect from a manager who has been in charge for over a year. All his words do is show his complete disconnect from the team and the fans. He displays no passion for the club or indeed for the game, as he stands like a gargoyle on the touchline looking like he's permanently sucking a lemon.

What on earth made Moshiri think he was the man to transform us into a top six team? He's virtually admitted we're not good enough to make the top six this season. Talk about defeatist talk! The man is a fraud and a coward. Thank God us Brits were made of sterner stuff during World War Two. If we'd all been like Koeman, Hitler's army would have defeated us in no time.

For the sake of our club and its future, the sooner we get rid of this failure of a manager, the better!

Paul, yes, trouble is, every time we play shite, Kenwright gets hammered. But the reasons for being shite are more apparent than all that. It's because Koeman's organisational and man-management abilities are shite. As soon as we get a manager who can organise the good set of players we've got, there's every reason to believe we'll be less shite.

I really can't bring myself to say things I wouldn't like said to me, or do things I wouldn't like somebody else to do.

When are we going to see the headline: "Ronald Koeman the second managerial casualty of the season"?

Wasn't liked by Ajax fans, lost the dressing room instantly at Inter – he's one of these surly, unapproachable ex-players who think they're the shit, basically. Bells? Ringing?

We need the new progressive forces in management, before they get snapped up, like that Irish fella at Hull – Marc O'Silva – or Robert Wagner at Huddersfield. These guys are the future. They earn the respect of the player by having good ideas, in training and on matchdays. Instead of relying on "You must respect me because I scored 140 free-kicks in the 80s."

No more De Boer talk, please.

Absolutely buzzing about the game on Thursday night. Just two more sleeps!

All of those analyses are correct. They are all symptoms of the route cause of the problem.

I can't believe no one on this thread has missed the bleedingly obvious.

We are selling club, geared up to finish top 7 for the minimum possible outlay. Our board see it as a business. Just as Arsenal gear up for fourth. Both boards will happily take higher but will not make the necessary moves to make it happen.

Why sell 4 great young players if you're ambitious and building for the future?

This is why Koeman thinks he's not to blame. He's already arrogant and in his mind the board never found him a striker.

But some on here are loyal to Moshiri, some to Koeman, and some to Walsh. Walsh and Koeman are definitely under performing as well, but wake up guys. I realised it was the same as usual when we sold Stones and Moshiri phoned up talkSport to give his excuses for not signing Koulibaly.

We sold stones and bought Williams but "McCarthy is part of the Everton family"! Bill Kenwright could have wrote those lines.

If as a fan you want Everton to do well you should demand more from Moshiri. Finding a better manager maybe included in that. Paying for good players and not selling is an absolute must if you exist to win trophies!

However, half our fans think lukaku is lazy and has bad touch and half think we should sell Barkley.

So maybe the fans are route cause. They buy whatever Moshiri's selling.

Manager Games Win % Years
Ian Buchan 116 32.8 1956- 1958
Johnny Carey 122 41.8 1958 - 1961
Harry Catterick 594 46.5 1961 -1973
Billy Bingham 172 37.2 1973 - 1977
Gordon Lee 234 39.3 1977 - 1981
Howard Kendall 338 54.1 1981 - 1987
Colin Harvey 170 42.4 1987 - 1990
Howard Kendall 162 38.9 1990 - 1993
Mike Walker 35 17.1 1994 - 1994
Joe Royle 123 39.0 1994 - 1997
Howard Kendall 42 26.2 1997 - 1998
Walter Smith 173 32.4 1998 - 2002
David Moyes 516 42.1 2002 - 2013
Roberto Martinez 140 42.9 2013 - 2016
Ronald Koeman 49 44.9 2016 -

Keane and Pickford?

Pickford too short and regularly palms shots into opposition feet.

Keane turns like Huth, not as hard and jibbed from man utd who have their worst defence in thirty years. He's nowhere near the England starting 11.

When we signed Lescott, was he better than keane? When we signed Howard, a full international at the time, was he better than Pickford?

I like them both but the top 6 are not arsed one bit of missing out on those 2. They may have signed worse but they already know these two players inside out, and they've decided to look for better. Much better!

And some of the Guys on here should take a large dose of reality, mixed with a little bit of patience and a nice lie down in a dark room!

Not playing well and not scoring goals is bad enough for most teams but, after the money, that has been spent one expects something more even in the short term.

Everton really missing the raids down the wings of Baines and Coleman from the first Martinez season which provided so much. Everton just going through the motions of passing sideways and backwards with no incisiveness going forward.

Rooney is finished as a target forward and Sandro is one paced. One wonders about the 8 million paid for Sandro when they may have kept Valencia for nothing who seems a better option. I hope Sandro proves me wrong but he looks lost at the moment.

Calvert-Lewin should start against Atalanta.

2 HARRY CATTERICK 17 Apr 61 - 11 Apr 73 592 275 46.5

3 RONALD KOEMAN 14 Jun 16 - continuing 49 22 44.9

4 COLIN HARVEY 19 Jun 87 - 31 Oct 90 176 75 42.6

5 ROBERTO MARTINEZ 05 Jun 13 - 12 May 16 143 61 42.7

6 DAVID MOYES 14 Mar 02 - 30 Jun 13 518 218 42.1

7 JOE ROYLE 10 Nov 94 - 27 Mar 97 118 47 39.8

8 GORDON LEE 30 Jan 77 - 31 May 81 234 92 39.3

9 BILLY BINGHAM 28 May 73 - 10 Jan 77 172 64 37.2

We are upset at his tactics, the Chelsea game, he changed the shape of the team with seven minutes to go, left it far too late, changed players versus Spurs but not the shape of the team which looked demoralised and well beaten after half an hour.

We are entitled to expect more from Koeman, the poor performances are a hangover from last season. I realise the players have been changed a lot and we played two very good teams in the two losses up to now, but there has been nothing up to now in any games to inspire confidence that we are going to get better any time soon.

Can Koeman get the team playing any better? – is what a lot of us are asking.

Koeman's team selections have exacerbated things. Klaassen and Sandro should not be first-choice players at the moment. Williams and Martina are simply not good enough and should be fringe players and nothing more.

I don't know who is actually responsible for recruitment but they have shown poor judgement. What I do know is that Koeman is responsible for selecting and preparing the team for matches and he is failing badly.

A heavy defeat is probably on the cards at Old Trafford but if we fail against Bournemouth and/or Burnley then Koeman's position as manager must be questioned.

I also fear that a weak team will be selected against Sunderland. An early exit from this cup competition will be catastrophic for squad confidence and the good will of the supporters.

I'm not a fan of Carragher, but doesn't mince his words, and I agree completely with his comment, Koeman was more interested in buying Sigurdsson, who he didn't need, instead of a striker to replace Lukaku, which was essential.

But so far we have more holes in us than the Beatles sang about Blackburn, Lancashire. Yes, we have to give the players time to gel and certain players time to adjust but, if you changed the name from Everton to Palace and the manager from Keoman to De Boer, I honestly think you would not know which was which!

Footnote: I worry about us having no style shape or system. We started that way last season; we did get better. I can only hope it gets better!

I was thinking when I put the list together that since 1956 we have only had 3 managers that have won a trophy. That for a club of our size is pretty poor.

I would also add that I have watched a lot of dross in a Blue shirt in that time, but just thankful I also got to watch some of the best that have worn the shirt.

It's not insane to sack the guy now, as some, Big Nev included, are suggesting. He's had a season – it's some of the worst, most unimaginative football I've ever seen – and we've seen what he's all about now. It's just absolutely turgid, mind-bendingly awful stuff with no spirit, plan or sign of progress.

What's this illusion that sticking with this formula will somehow make it better?

Those who want Koeman out now, have got their heads screwed on. I'm only judging him on every match he's managed with us, and it's a piss poor collection of unbalanced team selections, which has continued into this season. He's not going to change his ways, and I don't want to watch this for another two seasons before he's sacked anyway.

In Martinez at least we felt like we would score (until his 5-2-3-1 got sussed).

Under Koeman it feels like neither.

The very fact I am even comparing him to them and looking on them in favourable light should tell you all you need to know.

Very provocative stuff, Alan. It's the fans fault, we need to wake up? Hmmm... I think we're all awake to the type of club we are - that's why we're all on here angrily, passionately and in good humour, posting stuff that needs to change – sadly this is out of our control.

Yes, Moshiri should sack Koeman and get a better manager in and back him with transfer money. That's not an unreasonable demand, that's pretty damn 'woke'.

Pickford is clearly the future England No. 1 – Do England keepers make mistakes? Yes. Does De Gea and Lloris make mistakes? Yes. They all do. Doesn't make Pickford an inferior keeper that the top six won't go near.

We should all wake up to the fact that we're a selling club geared to finish 7th by an owner and board that doesn't care? Really insightful comments, yeh. Dead helpful.

I'm sure you're right that from a cold business perspective the likes of Moshiri could well see the extra investment needed to push us higher, as being too disproportionate in relation to the returns he'd get from that higher success. In other words, he's not too bothered about winning trophies, so long as Everton stay in the Premier League gravy train. Bit like Liverpool and Spurs, win nought, but be a 'contender'.

I tend to think that, whatever young player we have who makes a big impact on football wider than Everton, we'll sell him on fairly quickly, for a healthy profit, as opposed to using him to try to win trophies. A business basis for an Academy?

But given all that, to be a 'contender' you need to see signs of an improving system, where the players we've got are used to best advantage. I think that's the issue at the moment. It's easier to push for changing the manager, towards improving and becoming a 'contender', than it is to change the ownership.

Moshiri et al aren't daft, they probably know that fans are happy with those things, and the old adage 'you get nought for coming second' just isn't true. You get something, you get a lot of satisfaction for the fans, and decent profits.

I always remember the 68-69 season, better than the 69-70 title winning season. We din't win anything in 68-69, but we were truly great.

This time next year.

At present, I am on the wall regards Koeman and again will wait until Christmas to see if he changed the ridiculous patterns in tactics and selection that we are presently witnessing.

Prior to the start of the season, I thought we would have 3 points after the United game so having 4 is a bit of a bonus; however, I didn't expect us to play like overpaid cowards led by a clueless manager.

Many have used the "hard" games of the start of the season as an excuse, not me. It's embarrassing. Losing, like winning, becomes a habit.

If things do not appreciably improve and change by the end of December, Koeman has to go.

Hard to argue against in the Chelsea and Spurs games.

Hard to argue against in Chelsea and Spurs games. ,,BlueKfrog,1,16:13:46,,66.249.93.93,ok,19546,09/12/2017 16:13:46,debyrne,reader,, 849842,35473,toffeeweb,12/09/2017,Brian Harrison,brianhanmer@blueyonder.co.uk,"Yes, there are many things that Koeman needs to address but, last season, most posters said a top 7th finish would be acceptable. Now 4 games in and some are calling for Koeman to be sacked, but hardly anybody has suggested a credible replacement.

Sacking someone is easy but replacing him with someone better is a whole different ball game. I know one or two have suggested Unsworth and he has done a smashing job with the Under 23s. But apart from him who are the other possible candidates. My choice before we got RM was Diego Simeone but the chances of him coming to us are practically nil. He for me is the one guy you could nearly guarantee would do a great job.

So guys just don't post "Sack Koeman" – give us some credible alternatives. I remember some of the suggestions when we were about to sack Martinez, I seem to remember lots suggesting Frank de Boer.

My choice would be the next Pochettino, someone who is a winner and embraces youth and the whole ethos of a club. I'm talking about Marco Silva of course. Fantastic coach and motivator. A lot of clubs missed a trick letting Watford take him, mind you knowing them, he will probably be free again come the summer. I expect that to surprise a lot of people this season.

Anyone who knows their football would agree that those seven "principles" apply to achieving success, not just staying in the hunt. As he alludes to, the key difference between staying in the Premier League and becoming a contender is buying better players.

Can anyone on here look at what Koeman has achieved and seriously support the view that he has a team which plays to those principles? He has had the resources to buy better players but that is the final factor that moves you on once you have the rest correct.

He has had 50 games to impose those principles on his team. It doesn't matter what shape you use – those principles apply in my view. He has failed. Consistently. Move him on.

My alternative? Big Sam with David Unsworth as assistant manager / understudy.

Unlike many on here, I'm not well verse in tactics or formation. I only want to enjoy the beautiful game, and sometimes it's very obvious that those millionaires on the pitch don't want to be on the pitch.

It might be their own attitude problem, might be they don't feel like playing for that guy they call boss/manager, might be they are confused. And worse is no fighting spirit at all. When this happens to most of the team, and for a few matches in a row or say 7 out of the last 10 games, that's when I would start to think the guy needs to walk.

And I think waiting until Christmas is too late. I would say, latest by mid October.

Alright, grant Sissoko all the freedom he wants but not Eriksen. The Everton manager was surprised that Spurs player Eriksen would find all the space we left on the right hand side of our midfield. Having been surprised, he made no attempt to correct this until half-time.

Hard to know what to do, but it was clear from the Ruzomberok home game that our 'system' wasn't working. I for one am staying quiet re managerial matters as I was in the Frank De Boer camp last time. I have been pleasantly surprised by the tactical approach and fluidity shown by Dave Unsworth's U3 side last season.

Sam's Seven

I very seldom played at right back (box to box midfielder a long time back, I think we had Roman numerals on our shirts), but when I did, seemed to spend half my time shouting for cover from the Right mid. Martina isn't great but no one could be expected to cope. I am glad that JonJoe wasn't played in those circumstances. Gana did try to cover over but usually when Eriksen was already in possession. It's so frustrating to watch us getting completely out thought tactically.

"It was a great end to a very difficult start to my tenure at Palace but we finally came through with flying colours. For me, one of the best 10 to 12 days I had was when we beat Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Arsenal at home."

Honestly.

Going back to the Koeman midfield layout, one of our old managers had a catchphrase 'Get the middle occupied'.

I see Davies got a place in the team of the weekend in one paper – jeez, he didn't have any opposition down our right!

"I think we had Roman numerals on our shirts". I had an Egyptian hieroglyph – a fox. Hell playing on sand in those days, especially after a hard day's work on't pyramid.

This country is obsessed with labels. The likes of Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis who are very good at attention-to-detail strategy are often scorned upon. They never really do a bad job anywhere but never get credit.

The obsession that coaches must be either an exotic name such as Mourinho or sexy football blagger like Rodgers has run the rule far too long.

I haven't looked at Mondays assessment but everytime I have listened to Allardyce he is impressive. He keeps the simple stuff important.

Tony Pulis has done a fantastic job at West Brom. The calibre of player he has signed compared to what he started with there has been excellent.
Both of them have great systems for the type of player they need to sign.

There will always be the worry they are signing players to do a job and its harder at bigger clubs but I see nothing wrong with either of them. If only Allardyce wasn't a greedy fool off the pitch, I was actually looking forward to watching an England side look committed under him.

All the errors on Saturday were being spotted after just 15 minutes by everyone around me, so for a £6M a year coach, it must have been obvious almost immediately.

Martina was struggling almost from kick-off and it was just shocking as the game progressed, yet no changes were made to replace Martina or worse, too help the boy out. Spurs could not get the ball out that way quick enough.

Also, Koeman is sticking with Williams even though he's absolute shite and for me Klaassen just can't keep pace with either the game or the physical contact that goes with the Premier Leagye, but Koeman has him playing as soon as he's fit.

Worse yet, Koeman is currently working with no experienced strikers and IMO a worrying shortage of good centre-backs, so is Koeman thinking "if the board don't give a fuck I can play stick or twist all day long".

I googled Koeman and his management time at Valencia. It seems Valencia fans were in raptures once they got rid our man Koeman but they had to sit through some mega shite before the board took action. During that time Koeman pissed off the entire dressing room, the board and it would seem every Valencia fan.

I reckon Koeman can take all the shite us fans can throw at him; but then he gets to pick the team for Saturday's game, and, he also tells the players what formation they are playing. Ha Ha.

#2 Don't lose possession in your own half;
#3 Make the first pass forward!

We all know that works so why are we still playing that way after 4 years with Martinez & Koeman combined?

For a period, Bolton pushed the boat out and were signing players like Hierro, Campo, Djorkaeff and the inimitable Jay-Jay Okocha. They were superb. Playing some of the best football I have seen in the Premier League... I don't know why none of us ever mention that.

I even think they twatted us 0-4 at Goodson one time – although I may have just dreamed that one.

Of course it wasn't possible for a club like Bolton to keep signing top class talent and before you knew it they were pumping balls into Kevin Davies or Kevin Nolan.

I guess it comes down to the quality of player you have to work with

Maybe if contracts were changed to those in 'normal' life, Koeman and others would start acting and talking like they do give a fuck.

If you have an employee who fails to perform at an acceptable level, you get shut before he ruins the firm! The question of a replacement is secondary and there is, or should be, a capable deputy who can at least hold the fort until the ideal replacement is identified.

That has been the situation with De Boer at his last three clubs and it is the situation with Koeman at ours.

So, rapidly mixing metaphors, you lance the boil, apply a little 'Salve of Unsworth' and get 'the family' to sit round the bed whilst the patient recovers. We hope!

Thank heavens you are not in charge of Everton, so your policy is sack the manager without making sure you have his replacement. And please stop trying to use normal jobs as how you deal with a man on a £6 million-a -ear contract.

Mind, I didn't think you would ever give an alternative because if your choice of manager was hired you might have to defend him.

As I said in my post Diego Simeone was a manager I would love here, but we have little or no chance of getting him. So, if they do get rid of Koeman, I would go for Marco Silva, he did a very good job at Hull and he has started well at Watford.

There are indisputable facts at play. He's down here Link as the 11th highest paid manager in the World! He's spent well over £200m.

There are no grey areas, he simply has to deliver. Setting his team up not to concede isn't my idea of value for money. He has another 3 months, and that's being kind. There are no signs of progress or discernible playing style. He'd better find one soon, or he'll witness how quickly the Goodison crowd can turn on a manager – then he's toast.

I thought he was very badly treated as England manager; I think someone wanted him out.

Big question is; good at getting the best from low budget, low expectations. What would he be like under the pressure to succeed and win trophies?

I agree with everything you said and I'm not pushing for a change of ownership. I also realise that Moshiri was bound to get a honeymoon period.

I just think the fans made it too easy for the board to sell Lukaku. And the lack of pressure to buy an adequate replacement I also find astonishing.

I believe we should be putting moshiri under a lot more pressure. Bill Kenwright would have been destroyed for this window!!

Please realise: This man was happy to sell the best goalscorer we've had, break even on transfers, and sell Barkley, Niasse and Mirallas even after he knew no forward was arriving.

Our supporters celebrated his arrival because he was going spend millions like Man City and but when he sells to buy like Bk they pretend it part of a master plan. And "we're doing it right way".

And the fans judgement baffles me at times. Lukaku and Barkley not rated by many. Schneirdlin, Keane and at one time McCarthy, all loved unconditionally. Why? Just judge people's contribution fairly.

Andy 307

Pickford guaranteed to be England's number 1? Explain then why he's third or fourth choice now.

Also no top keeper is under 6'-1" like him. He's made two mistakes in one game. That's joe Hart-esque! He's palmed shots straight to the striker's feet before as well. I'll reserve judgement.

When he has had world class performances regularly like the keepers you mention and gets his mistakes down to two or three a season, the hype maybe justified.

The Atletico scouting team would deffo be an improvement. They've signed Aguero, Costa and Griezmann in succession up front, a defence that's as tight as a duck's whatsit, two great keepers in Oblak and Courtois, and a productive and pressing midfield for many a year.

And they're presumably on the same planet as Walsh and whoever else at Finch Farm.

Fair play got rid of a lot of the dead wood, the players he has brought in get shoehorned into the team playing out of position, no width, no dimension, Martina playing instead of Kenny, Davies playing in an overrun midfield, Calvert Lewin playing on the wing when he does get a game.

Is it just a coincidence that the three players he has problems with are players he has not bought in Niasse, Barkley and. Mirallas, yet Williams is exempt from any blame, oh yes one of Ronnie's signings.

Until Ronnie starts playing players in the right positions and benching some instead of trying to fit all his signings in then it will get worse before it gets better.

There's no doubt with the first team and the Under-23s, we should be able to field a balanced team. Somehow I do not see Ronnie dropping his players any time soon.

I am sure Koeman would find out about this with such a massive staff around him. 'Adequate' also suggests you would keep a big name who has basically been poor, until another big name comes along? Thank god your not in charge mate because that makes no sense whatsoever.

There could be reasons off the pitch within a poor run worth sacking a manager for, ie, players not liking them. Do you keep a man in charge under them circumstances? Maybe they love him and again we don't know but the theory of adequate is flawed.

I also don't see Unsworth getting the job unless the board go fully erect for a battle with the top teams. Nobody can tell me anything is different from before and if a man the fans can relate was in charge, the board would have to deliver far more intent.

The board will hire a puppet to keep us within the top half and deliver textbook interviews after games. Do this board even know if there is another Poccettino or Mourinho out there? If they did they would have looked past the dim character of Koeman and got a man like Silva.

Mirallas has only been kept as back-up in case we have a Europa League run. Moshiri and our board have failed us badly.

Lukaku has been allowed to leave before an adequate replacement has been brought in.

There is obviously less money available than we all thought... perhaps it is going on wages or towards the new ground. Or perhaps the next manager will need a warchest?

That's the difference a good manager can make. We don't have one.

New ground? Ha ha – you still dreaming that will happen, mate? Not with this crowd in charge, it won't!!! We would be better off selling the land and using the money for a tier on the Park End stand.

I remember our fans loving Koeman's hard arse straight talking: "If Niasse wants to play football, he has to go." "Barkley will sign or be sold."

It was ridiculous at the time. I'm just glad everyone can how ridiculous it is now. What's the bets they end up our two highest scorers?

I'd go the top 3 if I was a betting man.

He'd sort out our defensive frailties and bring in some Dutch-like flair. Suddenly we were linked with players like Mata and it all looked rosy.

A year later and we just look very Moyesesque. We don't compete against the Sky 6 and are weak away from home. We are too pedestrian, lack flair and severely lack goals.

I'm very patient with our managers. I gave Martinez more time than most purely because of that first season where in patches we played some of the best football I've seen us play since the first Kendall era. However, I'm starting to think that Koeman is not a good fit for Everton FC. He's spent money on players who don't add anything.

I don't want to see promising talent in the U23s or "one for the future". I want to see speed on the wings, a goal-getting central midfield player and a forward who knows where the goal is.

Why can 30 odd thousand supporters see our frailties but a succession of managers be oblivious to where we need improvement? It's almost like the history of our great club puts managers under a spell where they feel the need to survive and settle for dull, uninspiring, keep-it-tight football.

The one break we had from that was Martinez and he was the polar opposite. Too gung-ho, frail and unable to see the weakness in an ageing Tim Howard.

If Koeman can't get it right by Christmas (and I suspect that Europa League football will be detrimental to our Premier League position again) then I'd like to see Unsworth given a chance with a more experienced number two alongside him. T

he only other experienced manager I would consider would be Benitez. I don't like the guy or his RS associations and disparaging comments in the past but he has won trophies and been successful and that's something that our club hasn't done for too long.

You did not dream that, I was there watching us got thrashed 4-0 by mighty Bolton in 2005-06. I thought McFadden scored but no, he was offside.

Now we have a team & squad that is very different and have won 5, drawn 1 lost 2. Not bad considering the 2 defeats where high quality teams. Two out of three of the teams that are looking like they are at peak quality this season and will challenge for the title. We are nowhere near of course but still early days in the context I am outlining.

Minimum requirement this season is an improvement on last season: more points, longer runs in the major cups, failure to get that puts pressure on Koeman and I think he will be gone. I think we will see big improvements in playing style once we are playing bottom 15 clubs – probably by Xmas.

Unsworth for first team manager? No – try someone who has coached clubs at the top level, Moshiri needs a figurehead to use to sell his dream to those financiers who will fund our stadium.

So there I was watching us getting battered and a man and a woman walked in the bar, so there were 3 of us. I nodded a sort of hello and then they guy asked the barman could he switch games (in English). I said I was watching the game... fair enough.

But then I asked who did he support? – The Baggies –he was on his honeymoon in Florence and just wanted to see the game.

We flicked from one game to the other... he was on his honeymoon; I was researching for a film I was making about Dante's Divine Comedy. I saw enough in the game to give me some ideas. Interesting game football?

Koeman has been badly let down by a board that replaced Lukaku on the cheap with Rooney and Sandro. They ignored Koeman's pleas for a striker who could play as his target man in the Pelle mould.

We are now left with a disfunctional unit as Calvert-Lewin is not ready to lead the line. He simply isn't!

Obviously Koeman rates him as he has tried to give him as much first team minutes as possible while not putting too much pressure on him. Kane was 23/24 when he broke into Spurs' first team consistently.

Calvert-Lewin is only 20 and simply doesn't have the experience. He could do with a season in the Championship. Unfortunately we are left with little option but to throw him in at the deep end and it isn't good enough. It's clear Koeman doesn't want to do that for the good of the player. Too much responsibility and pressure for a lad that isn't ready.

Lukaku scored 25 goals and still got abuse for apparently not being good enough. Calvert-Lewin will get written off and abused by the less patient and unforgiving fans that we all know are among us. Many haunt this site.

As for Unsworth; he's unproven and is a nobody on the global stage. Like Thomas said, Mosh will want a name to sell our big plans.

As for Calvert-Lewin not being ready, he did well enough against city only to be moved again, to the wing in the next match, then dropped all together. If a player has a stormer, they're riding on a crest of a wave, keep them in, playing well breeds confidence.

Will he replace Lukaku? His goals? Probably not, but at the moment he's the best we've got, but all that is irrelevant if Ronny don't change tactics and formation, we're in for a long season if he persists with playing #10a, #10b and #10c all in the starting line up.

I believe Sandro, Klaassen and Sigurdffon should be introduced gradually, definitely the former two, until they get up to pace with the league.

If you asked everyone at the club to put their hands up if they had a part to play in that mess, how many would be able to keep their hands down? To hook all that around Koeman's neck is way too early, so let's all vent, then breath in and re-evaluate In December.

He earned a breathing space through clearing up the mess that Martinez left and getting into the Europa League. He has to radically rethink his tactical approach to top six games though, stop trying to pack his mismatched signings into a first team selection and bring dynamism into the team with Calvert-Lewin, Davies and Lookman.

Koeman obviously knows his best position but has been trying to protect him.

Davies could of played there, Martina maybe more suited to that position (can attack and cross but not as good on the back foot) and what of Kenny, watched that lad in the U20s World Cup and he was, well, fuck me shit hot (hope he makes the step up soon). Maybe Ron don't think he's ready and that's a discussion for another thread.

Calvert-Lewin is showing enough promise to get a few starts, certainly more so than Sandro, but, as mentioned earlier, it's all pie in the sky if we play the same tactics as the last couple of games.

"I agree, Thomas. I think what you have said is very sensible.

Koeman has been badly let down by a board that replaced Lukaku on the cheap with Rooney and Sandro. They ignored Koeman's pleas for a striker who could play as his target man in the Pelle mould."

Cannot Agree at All. Some facts for you:

1. Rooney in his post match interview against Stoke said he and Koeman had been speaking since January. Koeman publicly declared his admiration for Rooney at the same time.

2. Koeman had Sigurdsson on his short list as his No 1 transfer target. He admitted it and the Echo carried a piece that Koeman had prized Sigurdsson from Day 1.

He chose two players whom he, the Board and Walsh invested a great deal of effort in securing.

Why did he not prioritise a like-for-like replacement for Lukaku with the same or greater urgency?

After all, Koeman admitted when he joined that Lukaku would be gone after a year.

No, I am afraid you cannot lay the blame on the board for Koeman's lack of proper prioritisation.

You can blame them for plenty of other stuff – idiotic media appearances, the clubby, chummy demeanour, making grandiose statements, but on the failure to bring in Lukaku's replacement that particular turd rests at Koeman's door. He should have worked on what was good for the team as opposed to his own personal preferences.

Being at Finch Farm on transfer deadline day might also have allowed him to do better tactically against Spurs with the £150m resources at his disposal.

Personally, I would sooner see Unsworth in charge and let him put faith in the kids coupled with knowledge of what it means to play for this club. Koeman didn't exactly attract a big-name centre-forward did he?

Stekelenburg, Williams, Bolasie, Klaassen, Martina and Sandro are not looking like money well spent to me. Schneiderlin's performances are going backwards in more ways than one. I'll reserve judgement on Sigurdsson but we surely would have been better investing that money in a world-class striker.

I'm hoping it's early days and we'll find our feet against some of the lesser teams but I just don't see goals in this team. Rooney is still our only Premier League scorer this season.

We have an abundance of midfielders (Sandro looks like someone who plays off a striker, not a natural centre-forward)... but nobody to lead the line,

Instead of being the making of Calvert-Lewin, the decision could be the breaking of him. He is great but far too young to lead the line as centre-forward every week.

They need to have a board meeting and realise the calamitous decision-making will decimate our season and sack the buffoon who allowed it to happen, then right the wrongs asap in January, even if it is a stop-gap until next summer.

Everybody within that group dealing with money and transfers know exactly how much is to spend. Koeman uses that money to get what he needs, or he should. Last week he said he thought we had our Number One striker target. When? When did he start thinking this?

Don't believe for one second that Koeman is not a spokesman for the board. Giroud said weeks back he wanted to stay and fight for his place, no bid went in and no talks with the player so when on earth did he think he had that target?

Then there was the Barkley statement (and he has realised we need Barkley now). He told the press "We thought we would have had some bids for Barkley by now."

That to me said, the long negotiation over Sigurdsson has been down to the fact I haven't got rid of Barkley yet. This was when he should have pulled out of Swansea talks and bought a striker. He had that choice. He is well aware of what we can spend. He is well aware of what we need.

He was still hinting we need a centre-back and left-back cover weeks after splashing on players for next year (Onyekuru).

The club is beyond crazy.

If anyone thinks the club is in any sort of disarray at board level, with internal misunderstandings about finance available for players and sales policy (wild phone calls to TalkSport or not), then I'd have to say, I seriously doubt it.

Koeman was pushing the board like hell this last month to get him a striker. So to blame him for not getting a striker and the consequent problems with an unbalanced squad is grossly unfair.

He joined "the project" to win things and was promised full funding and support which has not happened. He has not been supported in the Barkley fiasco and let down badly in the striker department. Keeping a player that wants away causes morale problems.

All of this smells of Bill's conniving methods and it would not surprise me if that proved to be the case.

For me the far most likely reality is that the club tried to buy a replacement of the standard of Lukaku and failed. The most likely strategy to adapt when that happens is to make do with what you have got until the right striker becomes available.

It is just not credible that the club had found the correct person and Bogey Man Bill blocked it. It's even less credible that we didn't buy a striker because we didn't have the money, just pure fantasy speculation.

Great observation, the internal processes at EFC captured succinctly. We as supporters should be afforded a forum to questions the board at regular intervals. For all who are calling for Koeman's head, members of the board are equally culpable.

Many have been critical of our manager for spending transfer deadline day on the golf course in Portugal. At least we knew what he was up to (due to the power of social media). However, as supporters, we are in the dark in regard to what board members charged with getting deals over the line were up to. The communication and PR strategy at Everton is woeful.

Reid, Southall, Heath, Sharp, Ratcliffe all had shaky starts to their Everton careers and went on to become legends.

How many games have the four of them combined played for us?

Sometimes I think we all have pretty short memories. Give them a chance for Christ sake.

You are right to ask what he would gain by blocking a big money transfer of a striker. Maybe old habits die hard and the thought of spending even more money had him worried.

Barkley not sold, this was going to cost the club directly. His arms got further away from his pockets and his nuts shrivelled to the size of grapes.

Then again maybe no fucker wanted to sign for us and that was why Koeman spent TDD on the golf course in Portugal, not on the phone to Jim White.

In warm weather, mine swell to that size.

Instead he bleated to the media weeks before the deadline and did what? Bleat some more so the viewing public were in no doubt it wasn't his fault.

A clear exercise in exoneration, which led to him losing interest in the project and it shows. He all but threw the Chelsea game. And spent the lead up and post the Spurs game telling anyone who wanted to know we are miles away. Tell us something we don't know, Ron!

If he really wanted those players he'd have hounded the transfer guys until he got what he wanted. It's not like Ronald isn't a bold enough personality or blunt enough to get his point across.

His time on the golf course on deadline day hinted at his own capitulation and short-termism attitude towards the role.

Convinced am I that he thought his next stop was the Arsenal, with Wenger screwing his legacy up that when it didn't happen he reluctantly took Everton on as quick leg up. He didn't bank on us being a truly contrary, obdurate football club did he?

Well I think we have a guy not committed to the role, I think he's a limited coach, who without Lukaku last season to save him would have been gone by now.

Just think last season when Rom didn't score or wasn't interested we look like, erm, we do this season, moribund and clueless.

Koeman needs to be replaced, and quickly before we are looking at another season of monster transition.

I don't believe their in disarray at all I think they were all in whatever went on or decided, together.

John Pierce opened my eyes there. Could be a wild theory but I forgot about the Arsenal link. Was Koeman buying players before anybody knew of Wenger's fate though?

Really? I don't think so. You been doing some mass interviewing and counting Mark? I can't stand these sweeping crude generalizations by self-appointed fans' spokespersons.

I was very taken by Stan Schofield's observation from inside The Old Lady (#150): 'Regarding ToffeeWeb, the opinions on here reflect a different animal from the crowd at Goodison Park'.

Don't talk for the fans, Mark, especially when you are talking rubbish based on a thread/site that – for what its worth talking to my many Evertonian mates – does not reflect wider opinions, not least because there is a tendency for certain Koeman snipers to take over threads.

But not this one, I see from roughy half-way in. Absolute top-notch post Jack (Convery) @233.

James @375, Isn't Kenwright at most looking after the negotiating process with Elstone the CEO. He isn't really "in charge of transfers" and I believe he would answer to Elstone and Moshiri in all dealings. When you say Kenwright has a track record of not delivering on promised funds, what would that be? He actually didn't promise funds for Kings Dock.

Again, for any Conspiracy theorists blaming Kenwright for us not getting a striker I ask, how could he possibly do this and what possible benefit would he have in doing so?

This whole "Project" is now mired in controversy and speculation about relationships, finances, transfer policy, staff roles, management futures, and unfathomable intentions on the field. Odd public utterances from more than one source... from professionals?

What kind of a new start is this? Another world in just more than a season. An extremely wealthy, accomplished businessman would preside over this? And yet, amidst it all, the books balanced just so. Something ain't right. This is absolutely not what we were "Sold".

I'm very suspicious.

Will @381, What you see as happening isn't really happening because none of us know what is happening inside the club and the club doesn't air it's business. Into this information vacuum is sucked rumour, speculation, innuendo and conspiracy theories. For sure we should have worries, that is natural but no need to lose our marbles. We should look only at facts and what are these? We're not performing well at any level, we didn't get a replacement for Lukaku.

For sure we all have opinions, and I genuinely value that but first thing we need to establish are the facts as best we can. Then our opinions, could they withstand a challenge? Somebody once defined opinion as being like kids and farts – only okay if they are yours.

Now they are claiming he doesn't have anything to do with transfers. It's nonsense. He has identified £200m worth of players and the board have backed him to the hilt. We all knew a long time ago that we needed a centre-forward yet Koeman was blowing the kitty on average midfield players who will never create or score enough.

So, if the latest excuses are to have any credibility at all and Koeman does not have anything to do with transfers... what the fuck is he doing here?

If he is here purely to stink out stadiums all over England with his anti-football and his half witted tactics, why do we need him? Why would you make him one of the highest earning managers in the world if that is all he has to offer? Get him to fuck.

In this sense, selling the likes of Lukaku would of course be seen as a major source of income whilst still maximising performance and results, using Koeman's supposed skill to make best use of the players at his disposal. The only problem is, it doesn't seem to be working out that way, so Moshiri could well be reviewing Koeman's performance with a view to replacing him sooner rather than later.

It's easy to imagine a similar situation being the case in Mordor, Klopp's record at Dortmund being one of getting great performances without massive spend. Perhaps that also isn't quite working out as their owners intended.

There's always hope that Moshiri's ambitions for the club are massive, with spending to match, but that's all it is, hope. It's not something we could ever 'reasonably expect'.

I don't know why it's happened but it seems to me to be a rational inference that the board and manager/football staff are not united. We have no-one to take charge.

I am seriously worried because I do not buy the story that we'll steady things after the tough run of fixtures, nor do I accept that we have the luxury of allowing things to develop over the next 8 months.

Batten down the hatches.

Let's hope all at the club have (I hate this saying) learnt some lessons over the last week!!

No, our manager allowed the Premier League's second-best striker to go as soon as Man Utd clicked there fingers. Now, as Lukaku scores for fun, we struggle like fuck for goals. What a joke.

Didn't Koeman realise Lukaku was the only reason we finished top half last season? Where are Romelu's 25 goals going to come from now? Absolutely fucking ridiculous the way we let Lukaku leave the way he did. Other club's said No regarding selling their top players – why not us?

All those Blues who slagged off Romelu Lukaku when he was here – just wait and see what happens on Sunday... I have no doubt a hat-trick is coming our way. Guess some don't appreciate what they have in till it's gone. Man Utd fans I know can't believe we did a part-ex for Rooney and let Lukaku go... Neither can I.

Of course we don't have the facts or open days to the boardroom. What we do have are many signs that things are not working as mostly smoothly as they should, people not communicating in public as they should (or shouldn't), and a very poor outlook on the field – all-in-all, a rather large reverse on the new dawn anticipated and alluded to.

I'm not seeing the kind of leadership or reflection of it, that all thought was almost a given when Moshiri took control. One season down of a project to get into the Champions League, and we're short of pivotal players after bringing in 13? Something's not as it appears.

I should say: as it's meant to appear.

Now we're getting near it.

I hoped that Moshiri and the board would see someone like Lukaku as too valuable to sell before July 2019, perhaps even thinking they'd assess his value to us over the next two years as greater than the loss of potential transfer fee that would result from his leaving on a free after July 2019. I hoped, but didn't really expect it.

I saw it as a test of Moshiri's real ambition. I now see that ambition as simply getting us as a consistent 'contender', getting Koeman to do a 'Southampton' with us on a consistent basis, with the Premier League and Champions League gravy train that would result. Not necessarily being bothered about actually winning anything, although that would be seen as 'icing on the cake' if we did win something.

But it doesn't even seem to be working that way, to getting us as a 'contender', let alone winning anything. I could be wrong, and hope I am. [There's that 'hope' again.]

But you want the failure of not bringing these players in to be all Koeman's fault, so you have to have Koeman as central to the failed transfers, despite indications to the contrary.

Chris @396, which strikers capable of replacing Lukaku, better than what we had, were available during the window?

So, while some of the blame can be laid at Koeman's door, I think others within the club have to share the blame as well. Seems that they thought they had Giroud in the bag but that didn't turn out to be the case. Look how long it took to tie up the Sigurdsson deal.

Also, players seem to have all the power – can you imagine some of the managers I mentioned allowing Costa to basically go on strike till he got his way? Mind you, have to question why his manager would text him to say he is not in his plans. Maybe he thought the Lukaku deal was tied up.

Man City thought they had Sanchez and they would have but the lad from Monaco refused to sign for Arsenal.

So it's not only us that didn't get the targets we needed.

Maybe Moshiri pulled the wool over his eyes to get him here last year, with false promises, and of course the big salary, all the while intending to use him 'Southampton style with knobs on' (because Everton is, after all, seen as bigger than Southampton, with more consistent profit potential).

If that is the case, Moshiri simply took a business risk as people like him take, and if Koeman isn't quite delivering on Moshiri's expectations, then of course he'll get rid, probably fairly soon.

On this, I'm not blaming Koeman but our chief negotiator who probably wet his kecks when he heard that Man Utd were offering £75m plus add-ons.

This is why we are are useless and Man Utd are flying. Who sanctioned the Lukaku to Man Utd deal? That's what you should be querying. Not the lack of replacements. FFS.

How much really has Moshiri put in the pot for transfers? Apart from player sales and the huge TV deal I doubt it's a great deal.

If Koeman did not want Rooney, he would not have spoken to him.

He wanted Rooney and got him, the club paying significant wages in the process.

Koeman wanted Sigurdsson and got him, the club paying a significant fee in the process.

Rooney's wages and Sigurdsson's transfer fee could have landed us a replacement for Lukaku, had a No 9 been prioritised over two No 10s.

There are obviously communication problems at EFC. I am fed-up with the tactics, the selections and the unbalanced squad but recruitment? I can't lay that on Koeman's door.

He was under the impression that Giroud was a done deal. How different the start of the season might have been!

His lack of tactical nous probably means we need a new manager who does have better tactical nous (and better man-management skills), and no doubt Moshiri will get rid.

But, even if we have a new manager who performs to Moshiri's expectations, it's unlikely to propel us to winning trophies, more likely merely making us a 'contender' club that looks capable of winning trophies without actually achieving it. Much like the lot across the park.

https://twitter.com/Sporf/status/907931339915218944?s=08

The last 2 results have been bad and I am sure he is the first to feel the heat but some of his starting selections must also feel the heat soon if things don't change. The lack of mobility going forward is the biggest problem and the teams that finished above them last season will exploit that ruthlessly as we have seen so far.

I suppose we can all be optimistic and say, after a ''few'' more games when they have settled in, the new boys will start to show why they were brought in and I think that will be fair to Koeman too.

Just looking at the next few Premier League fixtures after Sunday, there are opportunities on paper for things to ''gel'' but honestly all games in the Premier League are tough.

Whilst trying to exonerate Koeman for the boards failure to capture the players he's whinged on about might be fair dos. However..

But don't you miss the point? Our season hinges on a manager who cannot see a way to win agame without a bean pole centre forward and utility LB/CB.

Does this not strike you as worrying?

Saving Ronald from this particular accusation is laudable but he is at fault for much of the poor football Everton have produced for almost 15months. In which time he had a 25 goal forward and several left backs he either sent out on loan or sold.

The lack of those two players, simply do not add up to the tripe he's served us under his tenure.

The question that hits me square in the face is with two away games in 4 days, and a truely crinimal away record under Koeman, that the Sunderland & Bournemouth at home will be two very hostile games.

Thrilling times at Everton. 👀

The manager / coach probably identifies areas of his squad that are thin.

The manager / coach may have specific players in mind, and he may discuss same with the Director of Football.

The manager / coach very probably talks directly with targeted players (with permission if required) to discuss things like 'philosophy', where and how often they will get to play, life in leafy Cheshire, etc.

The transfer team (not the manager; probably not the Board) actually does all the grunt work to get the transfer to happen: negotiations with agents, drawing up contracts, arranging medicals, filing the Premier League registration, etc. (Note: not the manager or coach.)

At some point, someone from the Board obviously sanctions the huge outlay involved, and probably has a say on contract terms.

Of course the manager is involved in the process. Is he responsible for every part of the process? Absolutely not.

John Pierce: see Chris Leyland's succinct analysis at #396.

I also maintain that Kenwright was behind Rooney's return following Duncan Ferguson's testimonial. Koeman wanted Barkley out because he said he wasn't signing his contract. Koeman would say Rooney's a good player. He's not going to say he is way past his best now, is he? It seems to me that Koeman is not the type to take interference lightly and has washed his hands of it.

Now before Martin starts with his staunch defense of Bill that is only my feeling at the moment because that would go a long way to explaining the disinterest and soulless display on the pitch unlike last season when we had a really good home record and. Europa place.

And with all the ex-Evertonians scoring in the Champions League, I could do with a cheering up.

COYB

Koeman will have been aware of the size of his warchest. I believe he would have been told that he had x amount (buttons) plus whatever we could bring in through sales (not buttons).

Despite the crackpot "I don't care how much we spend" attitude of some on here, Koeman would have known his war chest was not bottomless. That being the case, he should have been prioritising a striker from day one of the transfer window.

If, as is being suggested by some, Koeman has been mislead, or let down, why hasn't he said so? The guy has never been backward in telling us the blame lies elsewhere.

I'm all for exonerating the coach of all transfer dealings as long as we don't have to suffer the ridiculous claims of "shrewd bit of business by Koeman" every time a player signed since he got here has a decent 45 minutes. You can't have it both ways.

Of course, if we are going to accept that the coach isn't going to be responsible for the players signed, then we have to ask ourselves why we needed to pay £ 18 million for such a high-profile name? I mean, surely any twat could go and sit in a deckchair on deadline day.

More depressing though, is the thought that he is being paid a ridiculously high salary solely to produce some of the most spirit-sapping dross seen in the Premier League since its inception.

A second-rate manager hired by an amateur board... Why the fuck do we spend so much time analysing and agonising about where we might be going wrong?

I might be wrong but it looks like he doesn't give a toss and the team is playing in the manager's image.

Criticise team selection, style of play, transfer dealings by all means but I think that's stretching it isn't it? You have no evidence or reasoning behind that suggestion.

To be fair to him, he has several times said he has not sole responsibility for signings ( thus setting up Walsh for the fall?) and there does seem to be a disconnect between him and the Club Board and admin. I bet Chairman Bill misses all those cosey chats he had on a daily basis with Davey and Bobby!

As far as Moshiri is concerned, his PR leaves a lot to be desired and, as I warned, he was never close to the action at Arsenal and brought little experience of wheeling and dealing in the Premier League cesspit to our Club.

Perhaps he'll do a better job when he deems the time right to replace his first pick and doesn't get over-absorbed with the stadium project. Relegation would render that superfluous !

If, as I suspect, he is the Manager then surely he has final say on who comes in to the club?

Hope he proves me wrong and that we have a great night tonight

It may be called Manager in the UK but on the continent that position is Head Coach and that matches Koeman's responsibility at Everton. All contractual negotiations with players is done by Walsh; all approvals by Elstone and the Board. The idea of having a Director of Football is that all responsibilities apart from coaching the First team are stripped from what would have been the managers responsibility. Erwin and Dunc would report to Koeman but Unsy and the other age level coaches wouldn't.

Koeman's responsibilities would be to coach the first team, establish a coaching philosophy for all age groups and identifying his player requirements to Walsh. Koeman would have no responsibility for contract negotiations with players and agents although I would expect him to be involved at some stage when we are trying to sell the Club to a player we want.

Whether it's called manager or Head coach (it's head coach at Spurs and Chelsea) the position is nothing like the autocratic power centre that the Manager used to be. the business is just too massive nowadays.

The Organisation is basically:

Moshiri - Owner

Kenwright - Chairman -Manages the activities of the Board

Elstone - CEO - Manages the day to day running of the club

Elstone is very powerful

Is that true? Where did you get that from (Masonite call for evidence!)? Sounds unlikely to me – but I might be wrong.

We're guessing on a lot of this and my guess would be that Michael (#418) gives a plausible division of responsibilities between the various people involved.

The Chairman is responsible for the leadership of the Board and is pivotal in the creation of the conditions necessary for overall board and individual director effectiveness, both inside and outside of the boardroom. It is also the Chairman's role to ensure effective communication with the Association Members and to chair General Meetings. 

The Group CEO is responsible for the day-to-day management of the business, in line with the strategy and long term objectives approved by the Board. The Group CEO may make decisions in all matters affecting the operations, performance and strategy of the Group's businesses, with the exception of those matters reserved for the Board or specifically delegated by the Board to its Committees, executive committees or subsidiary company boards.

That wasn't his role at Leicester and I haven't seen him referred to in that capacity here.

Unfortunately, Moshiri failed to factor in his previous managerial problems and didn't have an established Director of Football already in place like Les Reed.

As I say, the logic behind it is that the Head Coach does only what the Head Coach needs to do, with a set up using a Director of Football, there would be no logic in the Head Coach having anything to do with contracts and finance.

Where I think I was probably wrong is that Unsy would probably answer to Koeman as a coach. Guessing for sure but I believe how I described it is logical and typical.

I believe that Walsh Identifies the players based on the stated requirements from the Head Coach and that he investigates the availability of the players, perhaps makes up a short list and then goes to the board for approval to buy.

My apologies here, I should perhaps have said that he is involved in the contract negotiations; I believe that the man responsible is Kenwright and members of his team. The point I wanted to make is that Koeman wouldn't be the man. that is why he was churlishly playing golf on TDD.

As long as they are all dedicated to maximising the the success ratio of the team, they can do it as they think best for me!

It matters only in so much as people on here and elsewhere know who to blame when things go tits up.

If Koeman genuinely had no "power" to sign a striker, despite banging on about it ad nauseam, then it's fair to say it's not his fault.

The signings we have made do not make us a balanced side and do not allow us to function properly as an attacking force. Someone is to blame for this, surely?

99% could see we needed a striker, and defensive cover. Most can see we have too many players at No 10.

Someone somewhere has taken their eye off the ball in a big way.... Whodunnit?

Koeman is responsible for team tactics, management and motivation. He will identify and approve players.

The board/recruitment team are responsible for negotiating deals and getting the players Koeman wants. That's why I have no issue with Koeman being away. I underestimated how much work it took to get a deal over the line until I spent a couple of days working at a large, well known club.

They are all responsible for working effectively with each other.

For me, it's best to keep these issues separate, though there appears to be a theme of incompetence throughout.

Sorry but, coach or manager or whatever he's called, that's not good enough.

I can just imagine how that conversation started – "Where did you find him ?"

An important aim for Walsh is never to arrive at a situation where an incoming manager has to sell half the squad – he must play a part in managing the squad before it becomes uneconomic. We might say it is Walsh's job to constantly improve the squad with a specific aim in mind, working with the current manager.

Walsh's role must partly relate to managing business too as buying and selling players is a huge part of every budget.

The manager just needs to win now – to take an extreme example, he doesn't have to be overly concerned about next season so you could imagine a manager filling a squad with 33-year-old superstars if he were left to his own preferences. He would then stand a chance of winning something and getting a better job, however the club would most likely lose a lot of money as the value of those players rapidly drops!

A balance between the two is struck. Koeman is currently concerned about the next 2 years, Walsh the next 5 years or more.

We are currently around halfway to building a squad that might stand a chance of competing for a Champions League place in 3-4 years time, when the new stadium is ready to go. Contrary to some of what is said, I don't think there is a huge rush to get there before then as our current infrastructure is not capable of maximising the financial benefits of Champions League, making repeat appearances expensive and less likely. If we do get there we are ahead of schedule and someone will have to prop up the necessary squad strengthening with a lot of cash spending – risky!

I believe that Koeman has an important part in selling the club and vision thing to potential targets. With a Director of Football though he will not be responsible for the selection process or in negotiating a fee or contract. I'm sure though that he works closely with Walsh to make sure that he gets what he wants.

Does Walsh as Director of Football have input into how the players are coached? No. Koeman is a jumped up coach and Walsh is a jumped up scout. The power at the club is above their pay grade.

Was Koeman responsible for not getting a striker? No, that was down to Walsh and Kenwright. Was there blame attached automatically? I'd say no because if nobody was available at acceptable price and wages then they are correct not to buy. No deal is always better than a bad one. We should know that surely given the tripe we've bought at times. Otherwise the blame is with Walsh and the board but not Koeman.

Regarding the apparent purchase of midfield duffers during the window? I'd say Walsh and Koeman.

Applying the same principle to Koeman's appointment as our manager (to use the old fashioned description) one can offset the negativity of his tenure at Valencia against his playing record and success in a relatively uncompetitive Dutch league (certainly compared with the Premier League) and I do wonder sometimes how much depth was gone into when researching him as a potential target.

The feeling pervades with me that a rather blinkered view may have been taken by our board (Moshiri in particular who is displaying a fair degree of football naivety such as with his Sky Sports News appearances). Indeed I for one, and many on here as well I suspect, listened to the hype, saw the successful player, the 'saviour' at Southampton when players were being sold from out underneath his feet and a certain degree of success in the Eredivisie and was quite unaware of the downsides to his history before being enlightened by many comments on here. His CV on the face of it seemed pretty impressive until one starts digging down.

Now I hope I am mistaken and I sincerely hope he becomes a resounding success with us but the overall pattern that is emerging so far leads me to doubt this will happen. I see and hear no passion, dire performances and tactics on the pitch, player unhappiness and lame excuses/buck passing.

If everything continues as shit over the next couple of months then we seriously need to consider moving on, pay him off, let Rhino see the season out and – as someone else has mentioned (Colin G I think) – take at look at Ancelotti if Bayern are going to trigger his break clause as rumoured.

On other rumours,I see we are supposedly interested in another midfielder (!) from Werder Bremen. I'd rather see us get back in a hunt for Timo Werner tbh.

ps: Have we got a game tonight?!

1. Youth – we have brought in a lot of young players for not inconsiderable sums, a lot of this was done quickly and quietly. Of course, there's less egos and issues here, so it is easier to do so.

2. Early Transfers – Keane, Klaassen, and Pickford were brought in early in un-Everton fashion, without any real issues.

3. Later and failed transfers – Sigurdsson was a protracted mess. How much is that down to Everton, and how much is down to Swansea trying to milk us like we milked Man City for Lescott and Stones?

Giroud, we all know that this was close, very close. If we signed Giroud then would everything have been better? When we didn't sign Giroud, why was no one else brought in?

For me, 1 and 2 come down to Walsh. Koeman clearly had input in Klaassen as he was spotted scouting him at Ajax. I would bet Koeman was involved in the other major transfers of Keane and Pickford, in that he selected them, and then Walsh's team would have got them signed.

Martina is a curious one. Was it Walsh's transfer? No. Was it Koeman? Certainly was. Martina was available for transfer on a pre-contract Dosman from 1 April 2017. Why did he take so long to arrive?

If Koeman really wanted him, and he did or why's he playing so much? Then why wasn't he signed on the first of July when he could be registered after his contract expired at Southampton? Was it that Walsh told Koeman how crap he was? Or did Koeman have second thoughts? Or did Martina wait to see his options? Very curious for me.

As for The Giroud replacement, we had 3 weeks. What happened in those three weeks? Did Koeman not fancy someone? I cannot foresee Everton spending £30+ on a striker and Koeman not being in agreement 100% I can foresee us signing a striker for £30m+ and Walsh not agreeing 100%.

As for Walsh ensuring we do not need a new squad when we replace the manager, no that is not the case. We have no left winger. We have 2 strikers. We lack pace. Any new manager will want to reconsider this. This squad is clearly setup to Koeman's narrow, pressing specifications. Koeman identifies the players and Walsh or his team complete the deals.

Everything done without Koeman seems to have been done very well and very quickly.

I initially saw the headline to the thread as "Calls for Koeman's resignation after Spurs defeat".

We can rationalise all we like, but the cold reality is we sold our star player to a rival in the same league, a rival we supposedly (hah!) have aspirations of matching or overtaking under Koeman's tenure.

All the politics around the transfer, all the player's own demands and shenanigans, it's all background noise to that fact. And that fact is the true "tell" of where the club is, which direction it is headed in, and its true ambitions.

Now whether changing the manager so often is beneficial I don't know, but Chelsea have proved you can be successful provided you can by the best players and employ the best managers.

1. To think a lot on here were touting Frank de Boer as Martinez's replacement and some were disappointed we didn't and went for Koeman. Hands up, those to which this applies.

2. Yes we do have a game. And a tongue in cheek comment to the site admin team – seems that not only is the first team going to struggle with enough personnel this season with all the extra games :-) Sorry lads, you do a great job.

Cant get much worse? Sorry, but it could be a lot worse!!

The last game was a very bad performance. Up to that point it had been going okay. Lose away to the Champions? Not the end of the world. Clearly a far better team. Results before then were what, played 6, won 4 drew 2? It could be a lot worse.

It needs to get a lot better, yes. The manager has to prove he can get this group performing a lot better than they have in the past two matches. But its 4 games into the Premier League season. We have faced the top 3 from last year already, two away from home.

We are currently 3 points behind Spurs, Liverpool and 2 off arsenal. Let's not write it all off just yet. This isn't a defence of performance or tactics, just a dose of reality.

The manager obviously has a say regarding first team players he would like. Sigurdsson and Klaassen were clearly his preferred choices. That doesn't mean he has anything to do with getting transfers completed with regards contracts and fee negotiations. But not being involved in these aspects doesn't stop him from speaking with players once talks are initiated.

There is still a degree of interview about the process. Maybe the manager has to sell the club to a player; maybe the manager needs to see that the player has the right attitude. But once that is done the wrangling passes over to the transfer team. Koeman has been quite consistent in saying he doesn't handle transfers, not that he doesn't know who we are trying to sign.

I worked for a large private schools group, in charge of my area. When I needed new equipment I would identify what I needed, maybe find a couple of suitable options then send to purchasing, who would follow it all up arrange for samples to be sent or meetings with reps to which I would be invited.

They may even say no, you don't need that model you can make do with this one. When all was agreed in principle all the payment and delivery terms etc would be handled by them. I would ask for updates if it seemed to be taking too long, but they would handle it.

Now, we were buying gym boxes and bikes not footballers, but the process is fairly standard

As for not getting a striker, it's the whole lot of them to blame!!

Who is to blame for Lukaku leaving is the issue – not who we didn't buy. We needed another striker when Rom was still here so people at the club have fucked up. We didn't buy, we sold – that is why we are fucked.

Please stop looking in the wrong place to place your blame. We had a striker, we let him go; end of story.

Saturday was terrible, I cannot remember the last time we rolled over like that at home!! We all want progress but it's hard to see the light at the minute. We've missed some sort of replacement for Lukaku and I think we will pay for it.