Lyon prove too strong for beleaguered Blues

Thursday 19 October 2017  275 Comments  [Jump to last]
Everton 1 - 2 Olympique Lyonnais

Everton's Europa League hopes were dealt a potentially crippling blow as they were beaten again, this time by Lyon who won a testy encounter at Goodison Park.

The Blues fell behind early following a rash moment from Mason Holgate who upended Marcal in the box and Nabil Fekir despatched an unstoppable penalty to make it 1-0 with less than six minutes gone.

Ronald Koeman's side fought back in the second half and levelled when Ashley Williams headed Gylfi Sigurdsson's free kick emphatically past Lopes in the Lyon goal and the Iceland international hit the post with another set-piece.

Bertrand Traore scored what proved to be the winner shortly afterwards, however, and only Jordan Pickford, whose personal display deserved much better than to end up on the losing side, prevented the score line from being worse in the closing stages.

Koeman made a number of changes to his line-up, one which exposed the weakness in the squad and the average age of his defence. Williams came in for Phil Jagielka and Leighton Baines, who dropped to the bench, with two nominal right-backs in the line-up in the form of Holgate and Cuco Martina, the latter playing as an awkward and ultimately ineffective left-back.

Meanwhile, Idrissa Gueye made way for Tom Davies, Davy Klaassen came in for Sigurdsson, Kevin Mirallas replaced Wayne Rooney (who, like Jagielka, was presumably rested and didn't make the bench) and Dominic Calvert-Lewin led the line.

Both sides made an energetic start as they sized each other up but the French team's first real foray forward reaped dividends. In attempting to clear the ball, Holgate cleaned out Marcal with a badly-timed hack, handing Fekir the chance to put Lyon ahead from the spot.

It was the worst possible start for Everton and Williams had to come across strongly to prevent Memphis Depay from making it worse three minutes later after Klaassen had been caught in possession in midfield, the visitors looking to press home their pace and superior use of the ball.

With Klaassen struggling in the centre and the team as a whole visibly bereft of confidence, Everton's response was tentative and lacking in cohesion. It wasn't until the 17th minute that Vlasic had the first sight of goal, a volley that sailed high and wide from 20-plus yards.

Mirallas then finished a purposeful move down the left by cutting inside and driving a low shot that skidded a yard wide of Lyon's goal and Schneiderlin bounced a first-time effort wide on the same side a few minutes later.

Lyon continued to be the better side going forward but Everton carved out another half-chance when Mirallas found space but when the loose ball fell to Davies, his shot was deflected behind and the resulting corner came to nothing.

The Blues' best move of the match thus far came in the 32nd minute, however, when Davies picked out an excellent run from Mirallas but Lopes closed the angle and made a terrific save.

Lyon came within inches of making it 2-0 eight minutes before the break. Schneiderlin slid through Fekir 30 yards from goal and Depay lined up the resulting free kick. Davies got a head to his direct effort, diverting it onto the top of the crossbar and behind.

At the other end, Vlasic turned his man smartly but his shot flew across goal and behind for a goal kick before Klaassen seized on an awful pass out of defence but with Calvert-Lewin to his left, he went it alone and Lopes palmed his deflected shot away to safety.

Everton remained vulnerable to the counter-attack, though, and when Holgate's attempted pass inside was intercepted, the ball was worked to Depay who drove into the box but shot fairly tamely at Pickford.

And Traore went close with a curling effort from the right flank that narrowly missed the target.

Everton started the second half on the front foot after Lookman had come on for Klaassen and the young winger had the first chance after the interval. A wicked cross by Holgate was pushed away by Lopes and, from the resulting dead-ball situation, Calvert-Lewin flicked a deep ball on towards the back post.

Lookman tried to knock a high bounce in on the half-volley but then 'keeper was well placed to save.

Another giveaway in midfield almost let Lyon in again, however, and it required a saving challenge from Schneiderlin to prevent the second goal going in.

Unfortunately, the Frenchman was injured in the process and he was forced off to be replaced by Sigurdsson with 57 minutes gone.

An incident of "handbags" flared up into something more sinister after 63 minutes when Williams went in on Lopes and left him in a heap by the advertising hoardings. Traore reacted angrily and a scrum developed in which punches appeared to be thrown but the two players escaped with yellow cards.

Aouar, just on as a substitute, fouled Vlasic, setting up a free-kick chance from the right which Sigurdsson delivered and Williams powered it home to make it 1-1.

Another free-kick from a similar position on the other side was also swung in superbly by Sigurdsson but his whipped delivery bounced back off the post and was headed behind.

Lyon restored their lead, though, when they caught Everton cold following a poor touch on the flank by substitute Sandro. Despite being heavily out-numbered in attack, Traore's move ahead of Keane was picked out in the centre by Cornet and he flicked it inside Pickford and his near post.

And Traore had another chance to deepen the Goodison gloom but his curling effort flashed over the crossbar from 20 yards out.

Everton pressed and Sandro's cross was almost headed home by Calvert-Lewin but Lopes was there again to beat it away. A successive corner was cleared and Lyon countered, Pickford called into superb emergency action to close down Cornet to keep the score at 2-1.

Pickford would deny the same player again in injury time, making himself big and blocking the substitute's shot from the angle.

Combined with Atalanta's win over Apollon Limassol, this was another hugely damaging result in the Europa League for Everton and their record now represents the worst start to a group stage campaign by any English club.

The defeat also extends the Blues' record to just two wins in 12 under Koeman, a sequence that will only intensify the pressure on the manager's shoulders as he prepares for another difficult game in the form of Arsenal's visit to Goodison this Sunday.

Everton: Pickford, Holgate, Keane, Williams [Y:], Martina, Davies, Schneiderlin (57' Sigurdsson), Klaassen (46' Lookman [Y:]), Vlasic, Mirallas (68' Ramirez), Calvert-Lewin.
Subs not used: Stekelenburg, Baines, Besic, Gueye.

Referee: Bas Nijhuis  


Reader Comments (275)

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Timothy Sebastian
1 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:09:20
More likely a back 3 of Holgate, Keane and Williams with Davies and Martina as wing backs. But why Williams and Martina? Haven't any lessons been learnt? Looks like another nervy 90 mins ahead.
Clive Thomas
2 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:13:27
Hope I am proven wrong but Williams?? And Martina??
Both a liability.
Jamie Evans
3 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:17:33
People screaming for weeks about how awful Rooney and Sigurdsson are. We are about to find out how we do without them.
Andy Dempsey
4 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:17:37
Holgate will be left-back in a back four. He's played there before.

A pretty decent side from Ron, let's be fair to him. Lookman on the bench at least. I can't see them just magically clicking into form though. Although...maybe?

John Roberts
5 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:26:22
Mass changes for a last roll of the dice from Koeman, I reckon. Really hope they all gel in these 90 mins!

Williams won't help his case! I'd rather play Stekelenburg at centre-back.

John Dyer
6 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:29:12
This is the game of our lives tonight – we need to kick-start our season. I hope Lookman gets a look-in.
Tony Kost
7 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:30:34
For me, Sigurdsson is a much better fit than Schneiderlin – as long as he is played in his best position – which hasn't happened so far.
Bill Gienapp
8 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:33:18
Defense looks a little suspect, but I like the attempt to shake things up. Let's see what Klaassen can do as a lone 10.

Mirallas, Vlasic and Calvert-Lewin should offer a more balanced attack. Rooney should be getting rested more anyway – there's no reason he needs to start three matches in the span of a week.

Raymond Fox
9 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:36:43
Team signals to me he's given up on the competition.
Steve Hogan
10 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:38:10
I wonder whether Koeman thinks it's shit or bust now in this competition? Almost two out-and-out wingers in Mirallas and Vlasic, so plenty of available pace.

Guess we'll know around 9:50pm...

Brian Porter
11 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:44:35
I guess he's treating this as an expected defeat.
Brian Wilkinson
12 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:53:03
Happy with the attacking formation at last. I actually think Williams will play better with no Schneiderlin in front of him playing the sideways pass and backwards. It may go tits up but looks a bit more attack-minded with width.
Mike Kennedy
13 Posted 19/10/2017 at 19:58:33
Where can I stream this game? I am in Holland at the moment.

Do I really want to? Yes... until their second goal goes in.

Mark Morrissey
14 Posted 19/10/2017 at 20:00:15
I can't get to the game tonight.

Could I ask a favour, can a couple of you unfurl a 60-foot banner that says in foot-high lettering "Okay, we've had enough of you, Koeman, okay!" And can you then get the entire Gwladys Street to start chanting "Koeman Out, okay" from just after half-time.

That needs to happen whether we are 3-0 up or 3-0 down. Thanks ever so much

Dean Cooper
16 Posted 19/10/2017 at 20:04:47
More attacking formation, yes. But I am extremely worried about Traore & Depay vs Martina & Holgate. We're going to need more than one goal, I think.

But as always: COYB!

Ernie Baywood
19 Posted 19/10/2017 at 20:28:33
A goal down early, but this is actually watchable. We lack quality but the effort is there.

COYB!

Mike Kennedy
20 Posted 19/10/2017 at 20:37:55
It is so frustrating listening to 10 seconds of the official site optimistic commentary until it freezes.

May be I give up, Everton appear to have done so...

Christy Ring
21 Posted 19/10/2017 at 20:58:47
Very frustrating, lacking composure and confidence. I believe Koeman has totally lost the dressing room.
Ciarán McGlone
22 Posted 19/10/2017 at 21:02:12
Mike,

Game is on RTL7 in Holland.

Not sure what I'm watching here.. Not the dullest game ever, but Lyon look like they could carve us open at any moment. We'll press to get back in this and concede more.

Bye Ronald. Clown.

Stewart Lowe
23 Posted 19/10/2017 at 21:09:20
Oh Dear!!!!!!! Koeman on the touchline with his stubble looking very dishevelled, must know it's time to go.

This doesn't seem right but I had a 3 team acca with Lyon to beat Everton tonight. Everton losing seems to be a real banker these days. I cashed out early and banked £38, may as well earn from this pain we are going through.

If the TV pundits can see that the fans don't like Koeman, and the fans don't like him, why is he still our manager? It makes no sense that we are prolonging the inevitable.

Mike Kehoe
24 Posted 19/10/2017 at 21:32:17
How didn't Williams not get sent off? Luck's got to be on our side tonight.
Mark Morrissey
25 Posted 19/10/2017 at 21:34:34
Sack him tonight. I promise I'll go to Church on Sunday and I'll say three Hail Marys... "Why the three Hail Marys?" I hear you ask... because I'm about to use foul language.

Koeman, you're a clueless, egotistical fuckwit and you've been found out. You peaked at Southampton and you've been rumbled.

You're just another Roy Keane, a once footballer who thinks he can bully other younger promising footballers because you were once a star. You both work in a world where you are surviving on a reputation.

Well, now you are no longer a star –in fact, you've less talent than a fucking starfish, so pack your XXL chinos and sod off into the sunset 'cause you've been rumbled, me old matey.

There is nothing going on in your head other than "Okay, so I am now wet, I have some stubble, okay but this is football." Bye.

Chris Millar
26 Posted 19/10/2017 at 21:35:15
Shocking behavior by a so-called Evertonian, throwing punches at the Lyons players while he has his child on his hip. Jesus wept. Embarrassing.
Brian Williams
27 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:02:24
We lack quality in almost every area of the pitch. No goal threat, no creativity.
Alan Jones
28 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:02:44
Just seen Holgate wandering around grinning while Koeman was berating the officials. Disgraceful.

Maybe he knows something we don't...

Jonathan Miller
29 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:06:23
Koeman out!

He doesn't have a clue.

Chris Neal
30 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:06:33
Time to go before it is too late to salvage anything. Poorest managerial decisions I have seen for many years. No ambition by leaving key players out. Will we get anything from the Arsenal game?? Doubt it under Koeman.
Andrew Keatley
31 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:08:06
I'd be interested to hear from the Koeman apologists now...

Surely there can't be many of you left.

Joe Foster
32 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:09:28
I just can not see a win any time in the near future. This is very worrying.
Anto Byrne
33 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:10:14
Dead man walking. Sandro, Klaassen and Martina brought nothing to the club.

We could have lost 4-0 quite easily other than Pickford. The front end is blunt, the midfield have no penetration, and we're leaking goals. Utter crap, Koeman; time to go.

Rick Tarleton
34 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:10:52
The team selection smacks of a man who has given up on this competition. Many of his better players on the bench or simply not playing.

What is this manager's aim? Is it to win any games? Does he want the sack so he can pocket £12 million and apply for the job as manager of Holland?

Does he care about this club and its supporters? He must go and soon.

Liam Reilly
35 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:11:21
Just watching Koeman having a go at the ref and in the background, Holgate (who had fucking shocker, along with the other fullback) fucking smiling like it was a training exercise.

Dave O'Connell
36 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:13:25
Bye bye, Koeman. Totally out of your depth. Players not playing for you, our season over, relegation battle to look forward to. Thanks again, Mr Koeman.
Ross Edwards
37 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:13:50
It's finished. Koeman is finished. Performance was a bit more encouraging but he can't turn this around. Everything he's tried has failed. He's chopped and changed and we still look average. Lose on Sunday and he has to go because the season is practically over after this.
Amit Vithlani
38 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:14:59
Koeman is definitely finished at this club. His body language tonight spoke volumes – he really cut a dishevelled, disenchanted, pathetic figure.

The spotlight is now on Moshiri. We know Kenwright is a buffoon but Moshiri is rapidly heading that way.

Sound financial management, ambitious plans and a summer of spending has given way to cretinous utterings to Jim White and a highly questionable approach to the current situation with Koeman and Walsh. Both should be sacked pronto for overseeing the debacle we are now witnessing.

Persisting with two men who have saddled the club with a bloated squad with at least 10 players who are at best average is bad enough.

Koeman then adds his own, unique, turd flavour to this particular soup with some mind-bogglingly bad tactics and selection.

Grim, grim days.

John Duncan
39 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:15:25
Oh dear, oh dear.... what an embarrassment. Useless. Clueless. And downright awful. Williams, Martina, and Klaassen are not fit to wear the Everton shirt. Jury out on Keane and Holgate.
Peter Laing
40 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:16:10
Keane rinsed all night – the lad has an awful lot to learn. Sandro and Klaassen overwhelmed by the English game at present and the young players are struggling under the burden of over-expectation. Change needed.
Stephen McNally
41 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:17:20
This guy will have us relegated. The camp is far from happy and confidence is at an all-time low. That said, I do think we've got enough decent players to make a mid-table team but not with Koeman at the helm.

If I was in control of things, I would do my best to get Benitez in; otherwise, our long standing history in the top flight will be under threat.

God help Klaassen, he's out of his depth.

Joe Foster
42 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:18:36
If £6m a year can't buy you a win, what does?
John Duncan
43 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:23:55
Koeman must go. There is no way back. But, whoever gets the job,, whoever they bring in, it must NOT be Benitez. Under no circumstances.... Never! NEVER!! NEVER!!!
Christy Ring
44 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:24:20
Moshiri and Kenwright have to grow a pair, and not prolong the agony, sack him now. We need a manager to take responsibility, not blame the players, and castigate them in public. He made a total mess of the window, and everyone new, apart from Ronald, buying three No 10s, and not replacing Lukaku, was his downfall.
Ian Lloyd
45 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:25:11
We are shocking, he has to be relieved of his duties tonight!

I sat in the Lower Gwladys Street and watched that crap again. 😩

BTW, Klaassen is without doubt the worst footballer I have ever seen at Goodison – and that's including Mickael Madar!

Gordon Crawford
47 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:26:04
On a side not why the flip is Holgate laughing? He was crap tonight, he should be embarrassed by his performance. Some of these players just don't give a hoot.

Tonight hurt like hell for me. I honestly don't recognise this club anymore. Moshiri needs to step up to the plate and get rid of all the dead wood.

Gerard Carey
48 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:26:25
Bye bye, Ronald. After Roberto, I thought it couldn't get any worse, but it has. And that on the back of spending a £100million+.

Get rid of tonight.

Christian Watson
49 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:27:57
Just how long is it legal to flog a dead horse for until you get your collar felt. Fuck off, Koeman, do I not like orange!!
James Ebden
50 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:31:48
Stewart (#23)

Me too. Backed the 2-1 win for Lyon at about 12 to 1. We were nailed on to lose. If I don't read tomorrow on BBC that he is gone, I'll be really pissed off.

James Byrne
51 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:32:44
Koeman has to go?

It's horrible to get to a point when the best football fans in the world, Evertonians, are calling for the sacking of their manager.

It's time to relieve the Dutchman from his duties. His whole tactical approach is consistently shit and he's now making good, decent players look terrible.

Thanks for the effort, Ronald, but your time is up. Best of luck.

John Charles
52 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:34:03
Koeman needs to go as he doesn't have a clue but my god how bad are some of those players.

Yes, I know he signed most of them.

Holgate is never a Premier League standard player.
Williams maybe once not now.
Martina clueless.
Schneiderlin spineless.
Klaassen the worst of the lot
Keane, England &Man Utd... really??
Calvert-Lewin, a long long way to go.
Sandro clueless.

We are in serious trouble. These players will not become world beaters or even Burnley beaters with a change of manager. Though surely they would improve a bit?? Staying up has got to be the aim now.

John Dyer
53 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:35:15
Why, oh why are we putting up with this!!! Say goodbye, Mr Koeman.
Jamie Crowley
54 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:35:35
The effort and passion of the younger players, despite some mistakes down to a lack of experience, was admirable. There's a team in there somewhere.

I really want to see Unsworth in and see what he can do with a few select "older" players and these kids.

Koeman will be given the boot after Sunday's inevitable loss (sorry...) to Arsenal.

Chris Barnes
55 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:37:06
Only positive to take is Tom Davies. He is the future of our club.

What we could have done with Barkley tonight...

Andrew Clare
57 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:38:50
Absolutely embarrassing night. We have an awful football team made up of some players who shouldn't be any where near the club.

The Williams incident with the goalkeeper and the ensuing melee was disgraceful.

The manager has totally lost his grip and should resign immediately.

A really really bad time to be an Evertonian. We are the laughing stock of English football.

Eddy Bernard
58 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:39:42
Peter (#40), Spot-on

Keane found out tonight, sorry to say, it but looks a Championship player at best. Koeman doesn't seem to know his best players or best formation.

Can he be trusted to get it right in the January window?

Dave Older
59 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:40:15
We need Seamus and Yannick back for starters. That is saying something about Yannick because he hardly set the world alight for us last season.

I am just dreading every game we play right now. The team's confidence is shot to pieces and I honestly don't know what the answer is. The fans have no confidence in the team, or manager, and things really have gone downhill.

Koeman is in such a state he can't even remember to shave his ginger stubble. I would offer him my razor but I worry what he might do with it in his current predicament.

How are they going to beat Arsenal on Sunday?? I have no idea. If they don't all get their arses in gear, pardon the pun, we will get royally spanked.

I fear Ronnie's days are numbered at this rate. It is not a matter of if, but when he gets the push. I see no alternative but to bring in Unsworth to bring in some kind of organisation in every area of the pitch. NSNO.

Steve Dowdeswell
60 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:42:17
That's it for me– - just thrown all my citrus fruit (apart from the limes for the gin) in the bin. Just can't stand to see those smug oranges looking at me any more. Surely Koeman has to go the same way in the morning.
Andy Meighan
61 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:42:57
Stewart Lowe, You're a fucking disgrace. Betting against your own side to lose in a game. We desperately needed to win. Hope you fucking choke on your 38 quid. Absolutely bad, as if things aren't bad enough – we've got our own so-called fans betting on us to lose. Shocking!!!
Ciarán McGlone
62 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:44:14
I thought Davies was poor... one defence-splitting pass aside, he was simply running into opposing players and giving the ball away constantly. Not the worst tonight, but I wish people would be honest about Tom Davies.
Kunal Desai
63 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:44:48
The exit door is ever nearing...
Minik Hansen
64 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:45:55
The best moments the lads had tonight, if only they could do it in 90 mins on Sunday. Arsenal barely won this evening, brings some hope for the blues in next game. COYB.
Colin Glassar
67 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:47:52
I wonder if Moshiri will call Jim White and say, “We expected to lose against a team like Lyon”?

This club is weak from top to bottom.

Mike Green
68 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:48:17
Indeed he was, Ciaran.
Tony Marsh
69 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:48:26
If the idiots who run the club aren't careful, Koeman will ruin the promising youngsters we have here and destroy all of Unsworth's great work.

I am positive that we will improve no end once Ron has gone. Just fucking do it now, Kenwright, you smug devious waster.

Christy Ring
70 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:49:53
What have we got to lose, putting Usworth as interim manager? We can't be any worse.
Rick Pattinson
71 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:50:21
My predictions: Koeman gone first... then Klaasen back to Ajax for around £18m... scapegoat??? Not a chance – the guy's utter garbage – one of the worst players ever to wear the shirt.

Ramirez back to Spain as soon as possible as he will become unsettled. Coleman, Bolasie and even Funes Mori to save us from relegation.

Steve Barnes
72 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:50:26
I really wanted Koeman to be a success. I thought some (but not all) of the signings were good ones. He has proved me wrong. I cannot see how he can survive this any longer.

Only a stupendous win against The Arse on Sunday should be good enough to save his job.

Interesting to note that one Mikel Arteta was watching at Goodison tonight.

Gordon Crawford
73 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:53:41
I am being honest about Davies. I think the boy done well considering the statues in front of him. Lukaku was a statue at times last season, but now most of our team are statues. The boy needs to be played consistently, as does Lookman and others, but he chops and changes all the time.

What summed up the night for me was when Cuco and Sandro didn't know what to do with ball and ended up losing it. They both nearly tackled each other. Embarrassing is an understatement.

Ernie Baywood
74 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:54:42
The problems so far this season have been:

- Lack of effort/urgency
- Lack of width/attacking intent/too many Number 10s
- Focus on keeping the ball in defensive positions
- Square pegs in round holes
- Poor recruitment/lack of quality in key positions

To be honest, I think some of those were addressed tonight. I saw a huge effort and finally we got width instead of a bunch of defensive midfielders behind a bunch of Number 10s. Unfortunately there's a lack of quality and that did for us.

So responsibility still comes back to the same people. But at least it was competitive and watchable (small mercies)... just goes to show... the things that Ron can do to improve this side are relatively simple. They've all been covered on this site.

Oliver Molloy
75 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:56:33
Never worry, lads, we will be back on track on Sunday!

As others have mentioned, I don't know what Holgate found funny at the end of the game.

On a separate issue, the fan with his kid in his arms looking to get involved during that load of shenanigans is an absolute idiot.

Gordon Crawford
76 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:57:39
Oh and If Walsh recommended any of these signings apart from Pickford, then he needs sacked too.
Kunal Desai
77 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:57:41
Imagine the headlines, Koeman, Walsh, Kenwright and Woods have all resigned. Be like winning a trophy that. Clear out the shite at the top as well.
Chris Jones [Burton]
78 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:58:58
Some observations.

Pickford kept us in the game and, sadly, their keeper made some good saves too. I believe Pickford is one of the few positives of 2017-18 thus far. He'll do for me.

Since our players often don't have a man to pass to, it's a real shame that our passing is so bloody poor when a pass is on. There's a lot of highly paid pros not 'delivering' on the basics.

I find it hard to credit (the loss of Lukaku aside) how we've spent so much money, including huge sums on premium rate transfer targets, and are playing so poorly compared to last season.

Finally, criticism of our performances aside, I cannot understand the moron who was abusing Sigurdsson while the Icelander was about to take a corner. He'd put Williams's goal on a silver salver for him, and had done all that was needed for a second goal – another peach of a free kick ending up hitting the inside of the post. And yet, as he was preparing to take a corner, this 'fan' was screaming at him: "You're shit, you're shit, you're absolute shite!" Way to go, Blues... :(

Stewart Lowe
79 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:58:59
Come on, guys!!!! There is one beam of positive light: Do not underestimate that Pickford, Keane, Ramirez, Vlasic, Lookman, Kenny, Onyekuru, Gueye, Sigurdsson, Davies, Calvert-Lewin are the bedrock of our future.

Everton lives big and strong beyond Koeman; our time will come.

James Marshall
80 Posted 19/10/2017 at 22:59:56
I watched the first half, and only managed to see highlights of the second – I thought we were much better than we have been in recent games from the bits of the match I saw.

The formation was definitely better, we had some width and pace from what I saw. Of course we lost the game, which is obviously what matters so it's not much consolation.

That said, we did appear to be a lot quicker and more direct at times.

Like someone said above, there is a team in there somewhere – and it was good to see the right formation for a change.

But... we lost... again.

Ian Riley
81 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:00:59
It's all a dream! I'm going to wake up and it's 3 August and the season hasn't started.

Really, it can't be this awful!

William Cartwright
82 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:01:35
I got to the pub just before the penalty and missed the team sheets. I honestly did not know Klaassen had played in the first half until I heard the commentator stating he had been substituted! What the hell is going on with Everton FC?
Tony Hill
83 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:03:24
There was some spirit there tonight and the crowd got more involved but Koeman is just throwing things together on the pitch and hoping something works somehow. That's a terminal approach.

Be in no doubt, though, that we just haven't got goals in us. That's not going to change with a new manager and that's what worries me most of all.

Pickford is a bright spot.

Andy Williams
85 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:05:23
Spot on, Stewart (#79). Players don't turn shit in a couple of months. Their ineptness and lack of confidence is entirely down to an inept arrogant manager who wants out.
James Marshall
86 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:08:02
Not everything is down to the manager – players also have a responsibility to build their own confidence, they're not 5-year-olds or robots.

I never understand this blaming the manager for a lack of confidence – you ask any ex-pro and they'll all say the same thing. The players have to take some of the blame.

Aside from that, I thought we were a lot better tonight.

Danny Broderick
87 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:08:03
I thought that Koeman at least had a go at freshening up the team tonight, and giving us something closer to the team that everyone has been asking for – we had 2 wingers and even Lookman got 45 minutes.

In all honesty though, the damage was done this summer. Having let three number 9s go (Lukaku, Valencia and Kone), it's criminal we didn't get one number 9 in. We have a lad up front who is full of effort, but at the end of the day, we have replaced a £70 million striker with one who cost £1.5 million from Sheff Utd. And we have no alternatives.

January can't come quick enough. It doesn't matter who is in charge – this squad is so unbalanced that you could have Mourinho or Guardiola in charge, it wouldn't matter. You can call for Koeman to be sacked all you want, but not much is going to change because we simply have nothing in the final 3rd of the pitch.

We seem to have no longer have a transfer strategy at the club. Steve Walsh was supposed to unearth gems, but can anyone see these gems? Where are they please?

If Koeman goes, I hope Walsh goes with him, because the transfer business we did this summer was a dereliction of duty. Our number 9 tonight was signed as a recommendation from Davie Unsworth. Which begs the question – what are we paying Koeman £6 million a year for, and why did we pay Leicester £2.5 million for Walsh?

There is a bigger problem within the club than just the manager.

Mick Conalty
88 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:08:33
Do the honorable thing, Ronald, fall on your sword. Better still sit on it so you will be shafted, just like you have shafted EFC.

Makes you wonder how Moshiri and Kenwright became rich and powerful when they appear to be fucking thick.

Pete Clarke
89 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:10:19
When he first became Everton manager ,it looked like he just popped pins into the squad names as his team choice was all over the place. He has since tried picking his strongest but unbalanced best team and that has been crap so he reverts back to pins. He is clueless and totally bereft of qualifications to be a top manager.

The only thing that's worse than him at the club is the living nightmare of Kenwright. If Moshiri wants to prove his business acumen – and I don't mean through Jim White – he's gotta get rid of these ASAP otherwise He will prove to me that he is nothing but a phoney.

Gordon Crawford
90 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:10:29
Crap eventually sinks to the bottom and that’s where we are going if things don’t change.
Neil Copeland
91 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:11:12
I fully expect that the complete knob who aimed a punch/slap at the Lyon keeper be banned from all football grounds for life.
Derek Knox
92 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:11:25
Surely, this has to be long awaited, 'last nail in the coffin', for Koeman.

Like many have said, apart from a bit of an ill-tempered spirited 20 minutes or so, we looked like the away side.

There was little on show tonight to account for the money that has been spent. In fact, from a supporter's point of view, it was embarrassing.

Rumours abound of an emergency meeting, but will that be tomorrow, or when?

The sooner the better.

Lawrence Green
93 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:12:30
Tonight was a weird match. Going behind so early on was obviously a hammer blow to the confidence of the players, it wasn't until the mad incident with Williams that the team really woke up and for a little while it looked as if Everton may go on to win the game. However, the quality at critical times was lacking and Lyon took advantage and left Goodison the victors – deservedly possibly if not probably.

On to Sunday and I don't even think that a good win against Arsenal will be enough to turn things around. It looks from the outside in, that the issues between the fans and the manager and the manager and his players are far too many in number and Ronald doesn't have the right sort of personality to get the fans back onside anytime soon.

I would put Unsworth in charge tonight or tomorrow morning in order to give the club back it's beating heart, at least until a more suitable manager is found for the long term.

Of course it means that somebody at the club will have to admit that they made a mistake by hiring Ronald and it will also cost the club a significant amount of cash to pay him off, however, that is surely a price worth paying if we want to stop the rot and avoid a disappointing season turning into a calamitous one.

Effort is laudable and there was plenty on show tonight but organisation and discipline are perhaps more important, thus far this season, we don't appear to have either of those vital ingredients and that's why Ronald's race is run.

David Edwards
94 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:14:21
Better effort tonight, but very little quality. Confidence absolutely shot, missing a true target-man striker, and a manager who looks like he has given up and is waiting for the axe to fall – designer stubble, my arse!

We are a pitiful shambles and Williams was actually lucky to stay on the field tonight (his desperation, despite the goal, smacks of a player who knows his time is up). Our young players look overawed or under-prepared at present.

The future is not bright. Koeman going will not be a quick solution, but surely anyone else is better. (Although I thought that about Martinez – so what do I know?)

Michael Stevenson
95 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:15:30
Did Koeman not do a post-match interview? I didn't see anything from him. Not that I care what he has to say. Just that, if he's bottling out of interviews now, he really must be under pressure. Or he's at an 'emergency meeting' as Derek says. Fingers crossed.
James Marshall
96 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:15:56
He won't be sacked after that – it's Premier League games that will do for the manager, not European ones in my view.

If we lose again at the weekend, then I think the board might do something – my worry is what they do, and who they hand it over to.

Most clubs if they don't have a plan in place, pass it on to the second in command, which in our case is his brother so that's not really an option... which leaves Unsworth as the fans choice, but my view is that it would be unfair to hand it over to Rhino in our current state.

Brian Mahoney
97 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:16:02
Lookman did more in a minute than Klaassen did all the first half.
Andy Meighan
98 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:16:42
So Stewart (#79), Do you know them players you reckon are the bedrock of our club. Are they the same players you bet on to lose tonight?
David Costall
99 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:16:44
Alright, people... first-time poster here. I'm not one for slagging off our managers but!!! I think Ron has to go but I doubt the board will get rid.

I've seen the names people have been suggesting: Eddie Howe! Sean Dyche!! Tony Pulis!!! Sam Allardyce!!!!!!

Has it got this bad, not one of these comes anywhere near good enough to manage our club. Just to throw a name in the hat, anyone for Laurent Blanc!!!! Available now if we do get rid of Koeman.

Jamie Crowley
100 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:17:16
Unsworth in charge of:

Pickford
Kenny Holgate Keane Baines
Gueye
Lookman Davies Sandro
Rooney

At least you'd see some fight and spirit! And not from some pot-shot fans tossing in haymakers at the first sign of a scrap.

What the fuck do we have to lose? I'd take a few inevitable bare-bottom spankings with all the youth because I think that lineup has a better chance of long-term success than what Ronnie is dishing up!

Andy Williams
101 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:20:03
James (#86).

Of course players have to take responsibility but when they have been played out of position so many times, have nowhere to pass forward to because the shape is wrong, have the crowd on their back because they don't know what they are supposed to be doing they are bound to lose confidence.

Look at Barkley. In any other team he wouldn't be expected to tackle back – chase back and get in the way maybe, but not be the box to box that Koeman and so many fans expect him to be. His confidence was shot last season. Spurs and Chelsea wouldn't want him if he was as crap as the manager and many on here would have us believe.

Eddie Dunn
102 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:20:40
Chris (#78). The prat should be banned from the ground – disgraceful.

Koeman looks doleful, his ginger beard gives him a desperate quality. Surely he knows he is on borrowed time. Only a good win against the Arse will give him some leeway.

Will he fall on his sword or will our club grow some balls and despatch him tomorrow?

Stewart Lowe
103 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:20:44
We can come on here and slate Koeman, the board and all that might be bad about this hole we find ourselves in, but for god's sake look to the positives. Not even Alex Ferguson came back from something like this when Mark Robins came up with the goal that allegedly saved Fergie's career.

Koeman will be gone in no time. It's just a case of how we go forward. Personally, I never wanted Koeman in the first place as I felt his name preceded his ability. The next man must be the man who is proven and has won many titles, no more of this bullshit choosing a manager with 'potential'.

I'll be honest and say there are only a handful of managers that I would trust with my club: Mourinho, Guardiola, Tuncel, Ancelotti, Conte, Klopp, Emery. As far as I am concerned, anything less than the listed is not good enough for my club. And it so happen's that one of those is currently out of work and just about won everything in the game.

Can we start feeling positive, Koeman falling on his sword will be very short lived, we are Everton, Nothing But The Best... remember??

James Marshall
104 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:23:43
Andy @101,

I don't agree at all about any player not being told to track back – watch any of the top teams, who have the top players, and the reason they are the top players is because of their work rate.

All the creative players in all the most creative teams work harder than anyone else without the ball – Barkley will never be a top player for that exact reason.

Bayern, Man City, Real, Barca, all of them have hard working creative players – what we lack is creative players that can be arsed to do the dirty work as well. So basically, we lack everything required to be a top team!

Steve Little
105 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:26:58
Three really good reasons not to be too disheartened tonight:

1) The return to Saturday afternoon footy in the New Year.

2) No more Thursday night arguments with the Mrs: 'Do you think I'm stupid? Even I know they don't play football on Thursdays!' 'They do, honest!'

3) Koeman one game closer to the sack.

UTFB.😜

Kenny Smith
106 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:27:53
The problems run deeper than the 11 that started and finished tonight. Lyon had five first-teamers out injured and played with several 19- and 20-year-olds including the two central midfielders and they looked far better than anything we've got in our entire squad.

Davies apart our kids aren't on that level and that showed tonight. Which means we have to buy and, with the exception of Pickford, we've bought some shite!

We need a centre forward and can't wait till January. There must be someone out of contract somewhere in the world. Walsh is a culpable as anyone -or not getting a striker in.

On another note, the lads in the Street End who got involved in the Williams thing need banning for 3 games and Williams needs banning for life.

Danny Broderick
107 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:29:47
I can't believe that idiot with a child in his arms looking to get involved in that skirmish with the players. Hopefully he is having a long hard look at himself somewhere. Why on earth would you do that when carrying a young child? What chance has that child got? That has disappointed me far more than the result to be honest.
Kevin Tully
108 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:30:12
Even if this group of individuals manage to 'gel' or things 'click into place' then please explain what they will achieve?

I was quite happy with the signings of Pickford, Keane, Sandro and even Sigurdsson when we eventually got him. By my reckoning, we've been had off for about £100m for the rest, including the signings from last season.

How is that even possible? Rooney had the choice of the MLS, Chinese League, or the likes of West Ham or us. Not his fault we had a dickhead chairman who was desperate to make up for selling him on the cheap 15 years ago, but imagine what £150k a week could get you? Would any of the teams who we hope to emulate have been in for his signature? Not a fucking chance!

We all called it as the window shut (so could a 7-year-old) but no striker and lack of pace buys you the Everton we are all watching today, a disjointed mess of a squad which will never achieve anything, never mind entertainment value along the way.

To think one of the masterminds of this shambles will walk away like a lottery winner makes me want to puke. Sick tonight.

Andy Williams
109 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:30:27
I didn't say he shouldn't track back but he is not a good tackler. Every top team has players like that. How many tackles does Mata make?

If he was so poor why would Chelsea and Spurs want him? He is a player who through the efforts of Martinez and Koeman has lost his confidence.

Even low on confidence he produced more than most English players. I can't be arsed finding the stats but they have been widely published.

Oliver Molloy
110 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:32:32
Derek, the emergency meeting has already happened during the week when Moshiri popped in to see Koeman.

If we lose heavily against Arsenal on Sunday (a game that Wenger can get his own back on Koeman for mocking him last season) Koeman may be relieved of his duties, one would think, but it's a funny old game and I think we could win. Rooney to score another screamer!

It will be a blessing in disguise to get the fuck out of this Europa League.

The team and Koeman and us lot are really missing Coleman's attacking and defending at right back, and when both he and Bolasie are back, it will make a massive difference to us, as would Barkley's ability.

I've a feeling this is what is keeping Koeman in his job for now.

Paul Holmes
112 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:34:19
The players tried but, let's be honest, we have spent £140 million on what? Klaassen, Keane, Sandro – for that money, we could have bought a half-decent centre-forward.

Posters on here are right: we have not got any quality, we are in a relegation fight with these average players and bad management skills from Koeman and Walsh.

When the likes of Watford, Burnley and promoted Newcastle are outshining you, then you know things are bad.

We need to sack Koeman and Walsh, then let the new manager get these average players out the door in the next two transfer windows and buy some fucking quality players, like Watford seem to have found!

Nicholas Ryan
113 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:34:42
I am a boring, middle-aged, lawyer; not prone to rash judgements or dramatic gestures. I try to see both sides of an argument, and weigh up the evidence carefully. Well, I have; and my conclusion is this:

If Koeman is still the manager of Everton at midday tomorrow, I am going to set fire to my season ticket at 12:01. Very carefully, of course!

James Marshall
114 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:36:18
Like I said earlier, player confidence comes from the players – I've heard several ex-pros say exactly that recently, Graeme Souness was one of them on Radio 4 yesterday morning, bemoaning the way that managers are held out to dry these days when things go awry.

Yes the manager has to take some of the blame for many things, but this notion that he is the sole reason players gain or lose confidence, is pure fantasy.

Gordon Crawford
115 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:41:06
Whoever that guy was, he should seriously be embarrassed by his actions. He will most probably be banned and that will also mean his little boy missing out on precious football moments with his dad. Seriously, what was he thinking?
William Cartwright
116 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:44:11
Although it was a sad result and a generally poor first half, and an embarrassing melee following a desperate sending off action by Williams, there were some bright spots such as the added passion on display.

Big question for me is; If we showed a better performance by having width through the presence of wingers on the pitch, why has it taken until now for the Manager to wake up to the need to change the formation? That for me is the most damning nail for his coffin.

Jamie Crowley
117 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:45:00
I've no problem at all with players scrapping a bit. I had no idea one of those idiot fans – and fans should never get involved in physical altercations never mind ones that are on the field of play – had a child in his arms!!!

What in the holy hell is that neanderthal thinking? That is just awful!

Mike Berry
118 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:47:22
Lyons 2nd goal may well have had a P45 attached.

I can't see us beating the Arsenal on Sunday for the simple reason that Koeman will revert to type and try and stop them from scoring and pack the midfield with players thinking "What are we supposed to do"?

Tonight's result may be a long term blessing, I've never seen Koeman looked so agitated, his supposed aura of cool well and truly exposed...

James Marshall
119 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:50:05
To be fair to Koeman, and for whatever reason (Lyon are known for playing with quick wingers, hint hint) he did actually play with some attempted pace & width tonight... it sort of worked and we were much better to watch, I thought.

We did lose though, but it was fine margins against a decent Lyon side.

Alasdair Mackay
120 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:50:28
I didn't think we played badly in the 2nd half, but the damage was done by the pedestrian reaction to going behind in the 1st half.

All the talk of there being no pace or width and Lookman and Mirallas were our most positive players today. Apart from Pickford, of course.

Andy Crooks
121 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:50:36
Koeman has nothing to offer Everton. He is done. There is something odd about his continuing tenure. I admit I was slow to see it. I thought it would take a little time. However, there is nothing, not a thing, to indicate that there are better times ahead.

The custodians of our club are guilty of negligence if they do not act. The players are not blameless, they have been woeful. But, the expectation of several months ago has vanished due to Koeman.

I would not be confident of us beating any team in all divisions. We are, in my view, the worst team in the Premier League. We have relegation written all over us. If Koeman is here at the end of October, I fear for the future of our club.

Tony Hill
122 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:50:43
We do not have a single senior player who can manage tempo and resilience on the pitch, either when things are going well or when they're going badly. That has been true for a long time now.

We have no strength or intelligence in our play, nothing to bind us together, which is why even last season we only managed episodes of higher quality and couldn't build or maintain a game rhythm.

The same lack of constructive hard-mindedness is evident with the manager and the Board. That's where we must start: getting some rigour and savvy into what we do throughout the club. That's a massive task which has been long neglected. Good luck to our next manager.

Andy Williams
123 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:52:10
I wouldn't listen to a word that yard dog says – even if it is on R4. How can so many players be short of confidence? Players in Souness's day were different but they were also almost always played in their position.

Look at Martinez's first season. The team played with his attacking gusto but still had the defensive qualities instilled by Moyes. By the end of his tenure, the same players generally were shot.

Managers now try and impose 'philosophies' on teams. That is what happened to Barkley – Martinez tried to suppress his natural desire to run at players straight into the box and suddenly he was holding back looking for the next pass (and told players like Jags to try and play football round the edge of our box). Koeman compounded his lost confidence by so publically slating him.

Tony Mace
124 Posted 19/10/2017 at 23:54:52
Nicholas #113

Can I call you at 12:00 before you strike a match and claim your credits for a Lyon away ticket?

Steve Ferns
125 Posted 19/10/2017 at 00:02:10
I thought we were the best we've been for weeks tonight. There was fight in the players, we had pace and width and at times we even had urgency.

To the guy criticising Tom Davies, yes he was not perfect, and it was not a shining example of his capabilities but all of the above was down to him. He didn't hide, like Klaassen or the others. He got stuck in and worked harder and harder and he raised our tempo and he got us playing and he dragged us back into that game.

That game was an example of who Tom Davies is. A winner. A fighter. Someone who will not quit. Someone who will roll up his sleeves and just work harder and harder and dig deeper and deeper. It doesn't matter if he's not having a good game, he will five everything he has. And he has to play every game. The lad is what this club should be about.

Whilst this was better and the team selection was largely better and there was a welcome return to 4-3-3, it was too little too late. I don't think Koeman has lost the players as they were fighting for him. But he needs a miracle now.

As for the next guy. No not a proven manager like Ancellotti. He's a terrible coach. Listen to the Chelsea, Madrid and Bayern players. They don't rate his coaching at all. We need a coach.

This needs to be fixed on the training pitch. We need a coach first and foremost. Silva is the man for me and I'd use Unsworth as caretaker until he agrees to come, also giving rhino time to stake his claim. But not Ferguson, no. We need coaching and he hasn't proved himself a coach yet, maybe he can take Unsworth's job and show himself.

I just hope we act quickly.

Hywel Owen
126 Posted 19/10/2017 at 00:05:27
Koeman's problems started when he allegedly told Lukaku that he would have to move on to achieve anything. Whilst maybe this was true, time will tell, it is something that a manager should never do because it alienates the rest of the squad. Nobody likes to be told indirectly by the manager that there is no future and that they are second rate.

The way the players are performing is not lack of confidence – they are effectively on strike and things will not change until we have a new man in charge who can control the dressing room.

I cannot believe Moshiri and Kenwright do not realise this. If they persist with this ridiculous situation much longer then EFC as a Premier League side are doomed

Nigel Gregson
127 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:06:28
Steve Ferns, what are your views of Maurizio Sarri from Napoli? Not that he'd want to leave in the middle of a Champions League campaign, but I'd like to think we can offer more opportunities than Napoli.
Steve Ferns
128 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:08:41
Not a chance, Nigel. Don't even think about him. He's destined for a top Serie A job or better.
Dave Southword
129 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:13:49
Our friend in the Gwladys reminded me of a game against Wolves 5 or 6 years ago maybe. I was in the Lower Bullens and was easily distracted from a poor game by commotion in the Gwladys. This fella kicking seven shades out of the seat in front of him until the stewards picked him up and carted him up the stairs.

After a few seconds, he wriggles free and runs back down, we thought to have another go at whomever had riled him in the first place. No, he picked up a 7- or 8-year-old child and went back up the stairs.

We have our fair share of bells.

Oh, the game – not as bad as usual, Davies back on the bench for Arsenal nailed on. Koeman out, but not until Moyes takes the Scotland job.

Conor Skelly
130 Posted 19/10/2017 at 00:23:53
I thought Davies had a decent game tonight. He gave the ball away a few times. But, to be fair to him, the movement in front of him was terrible again – which leads me on to my second point.

Calvert-Lewin is not, nor will he ever be good enough to lead the line for a Premier League side. Anichebe is much better. Vaughan is much better.

I still think we have the players to turn things around after Christmas but we will be seeing out 2017 in the relegation zone regardless if we stick or twist with Ronald. The damage was done in the summer when Management and The Board failed to land an appropriate Striker, left centre-back,and to find a replacement Left-back.

The worry for me is the lack of confidence. Not just on the pitch but in the boardroom. On the night of the Jim White / Moshiri fiasco Mk 2, in August just gone, I was alarmed listening to our new majority shareholder. He sounded drunk and like a man desperately in need of the Barkley sale. Has Moshiri lost his nerve with his cash, like Randy Lerner did? Is he on tilt?

If so, the board will be reluctant to sack the manager. Moshiri has already been burned for enough cash as it is, without paying Koeman however many millions to go away.

I think the sensible business move from Moshiri's perspective will be to hope that Koeman can turn it around. I think he will wait and see until late November at least before making a final decision.

And don't expect a big-time striker in January either. It'll be someone like Charlie Austin for £8M, which for my money is still a 100% improvement on Calvert-Lewin, who is shite.

Barry Williams
131 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:35:36
Well, it was a lot better tonight, a lot more balanced and we actually looked like a team, at times.

However, saying this, we still had a right-back playing at left-back and a centre-back playing at right-back, and it showed. What was also clearly obvious was that we lacked a focal point for the team and had no one on the bench to bring on to rectify that, which brings me onto my next point.

We have looked disjointed on the field up until tonight. I initially put it down to gelling problems, but it may go further than that. Why was Martina playing at left-back tonight? Well, Funes Mori is injured, but isn't a left-back anyway. Galloway is out on loan, Garbutt isn't even registered. The knock-on effect our natural right-back cover has to play there, thus a young centre-back still learning the game has to play right-back. The reason we have no recourse to change things upfront, well our other Number 9 (Niasse) wasn't registered either. Unbelievable.

This brings me onto something I said in a previous post, summed up in one word!

Disorganized!

It seems that the disorganization is not just down to the manager or on the pitch. Have things gotten too convoluted and complicated? We have 2 blokes in the chairmen role, a director of football, who I thought was brought in as a scout, and a manager operating with some backroom staff that weren't his choice. It all seems so far removed form the chairman, manager, scout scenario of previous regimes.

All these 'experts' couldn't get a striker in to replace a want away striker, who has wanted away, and made it known, since he virtually joined the club. Madness!

Yes, all aspects of the club seem to be shrouded in complication, from the set-up to the team selection.

Saying that, I saw some reasons to be slightly (and I do mean slightly) optimistic tonight. Arsenal will be the catalyst as to what happens for the rest of the season!

David Barks
132 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:50:22
For the first time in my life I'm ashamed and embarrassed to go in public with anything Everton. Been through horrible derby maulings and could still go outside with hope that it would get better. But at this point, no. Enough is enough.

I hate everything I see going on at this club right now. It's pathetic from top to bottom. This is not the Everton I was born into and raised with. It disgusts me.

Nobody inside this club has a single ounce of desire to win something with Everton. The ownership can't give a shit. They just want to watch the value continue to rise by default, as the TV revenue increases.

The players? They aren't here to win anything. Those that have stayed, like Baines and Jags only did so out of a lack of ambition. Any with quality and ambition rightly got the hell out at first calling. The entire thing is rotten.

Gary Hughes
133 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:51:26
I actually thought that was probably our best performance of the season which, considering we could easily of lost by a greater margin, doesn't bode well.

Unfortunately we have the twin curse of not only being shite but we're also unlucky which is the worst possible combination. We know via Jim White that defeat against half decent teams is not only expected but also accepted. So losing to Lyon is not so bad as they're a decent team.

So on to Arsenal, well we can't expect much there so that one can slide. Chelsea in the League Cup away? Well that's a given so forget that one & so acceptable defeats will be continue to be tolerated unlike at Palace & Leicester who both appear to be disturbed enough by failure to act accordingly.

My guess is that this shite will continue until January when we're dumped out of the cup, probably at home to a championship team, when the board will spring into action & put this Dutch disaster out of his misery when the season is already over.

I think back to those two pivotal matches at the end of Martinez's reign when everyone knew the derby & the cup semi final were guaranteed defeats unless the poor hapless bastard was euthanized for his own good. Faced with that season defining moment, what did our glorious leaders do? That's right – fuck all... & what happened next? That's right .we promptly lost both games.

So then... I suggest we accept our fate because our club has become so comfortable with 30 years of abject failure that failure has now become the status quo & in truth it doesn't even hurt any more because it's not only accepted – it's also expected.

David Booth
134 Posted 20/10/2017 at 00:56:01
Call me a cynic, but I'm beginning to wonder if the reason Moyes hasn't been offered the Scotland job is because Kenwright has told him to wait a while to see what happens with the Dutchman.

And if that IS the case, it would prove who really is still in charge at our club – and who was the sentimental fool who brought Rooney back!

On a separate note, Koeman really has not got a clue what to do has he? And never had one from the outset, based on the 60-odd games he has been in charge.

Still only one good performance so far, against Man City at home last season. The other 59-odd have been worse than watching England. Every single, solitary, sickening one of them.

He has to go.

Not when we get beaten by Arsenal. Or knocked out of the League Cup at Chelsea. But now, while there's still a chance we can win one or both of them.

Waiting to see if things will change is as stupid as his persistence with the same dreadful team selection time, after time, after time (repeat until fade...).

David Barks
135 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:03:22
David Booth,

You know what is really sad? I would actually welcome Moyes back at this point. One thing I could at least count on then would be organized defensive effort. And playing without a striker wasn't unusual under Moyes sadly. Good God, how low have we sunken?

Raymond Fox
136 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:06:42
Stewart 103, positives like what!

The club's a bloody shambles from the manager through to the owners. We haven't a player that the top teams want, except apparently Barkley and he's been shown the door by big shot Koeman.

Then you come out with you only want one of the world's best managers, I can only hope you have had too much to drink because your grip on reality is way shot.

Koeman has lost all credibility and has to go. The way things are shaping up, we will do very well to finish above half way in the league and that's being overly optimistic.

Whoever is the new manager he will have his work cut out to getting us playing good football again in the short term.

I will concede you one positive, our youth set up seems to be one of the best in the league. As for the rest of our club, well enough said.

Terry Underwood
137 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:06:53
Okay, we win 2-0 in France, 3-0 in Cyprus and rout the Eyties 4-1 at Goodison We qualify and go on to win the cup... Seeeeemples. Now, who's next on this bong?
Kevin Moorcroft
138 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:17:53
Looks unlikely to be turned around despite a slight improvement tonight. I don't think this lot are playing for the shirt and what it counts for. Bound to be crowd frustration after such a bad run.

Don't worry, the Directors will know that and any fall from the Premier League means financial disaster (Newcastle the exception).

I couldn't see this lot climbing back immediately anyway – they've no guts. I do hope they prove us wrong but we let our best striker for years go which shows the ambition of the club has'not changed.

Never sell your stars – we sold Alan Ball initially and then Rooney, Lukaku, Arteta, Stones... need I say more? I'm afraid there's no passion since the John Moores Era and the Kendall Era. Players sold for short term gains- never works I'm afraid.

Lots of fans have had enough – who can blame them? Moshiri won't make.a scrap of difference... and as for.the Walsh handout, that typifies the club – he just had lucky spell at Leicester and we were stupid enough not to realise it.

Him and Koeman probably hate each other's guts anyway.

Soren Moyer
139 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:36:38
Kenwright Out!!!
Stewart Lowe
140 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:37:31
Raymond (#136): Have you heard yourself Raymond?? A positive is that, although Koeman is a garbage Manager, we have actually bought a lot of great players. Don't be fooled by this poor form, as most of the players we have bought will be great players.

They just need a great manager to put them into a system and give them the confidence to go out there and show what they can do. Just because Koeman is garbage, it doesn't mean the players are, Koeman just doesn't know how to fit them into a system that creates a coherent team.

Secondly, Raymond, have you heard yourself??? Do you actually know what Nil satis Nisi Optimum means??? Nothing but the best!!! That seems to be a strange concept for those not old enough to remember the Kendall days.

I have supported Everton since 1982 and we expect the very best. Why shouldn't I expect a world class manager?? this is Everton. Why should I have to accept an Allardyce, or Pulis etc??

Forget Chelsea, Tottenham and Manchester City, we are the 4th most decorated team in the land, so why shouldn't we demand the best manager in the land??????

You should feel ashamed of yourself.

George Stuart
141 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:38:44
God!

P45, no not yet.

Just looked at the fixture list:

Arsenal. Everyone knows they will beat us. An unremarkable 2-1 to them.

Chelsea's kids and B players. Winners.

Leicester. Interesting one this. They are in a bit of trouble. So if fairly committed and if they do us, its P45.

Lyon away aren't going to be as poor as Lyon at our place, and they still won, and they weren't all that poor. Possible P45.

Watford are playing very well. So a loss to them might be expected. No P45.

Crystal Palace Away. Anything less than a win it's P45. But would it be too late?

Scariest time since Moyse's bad season.

I suppose the key question is who's next? Reading back through the posts, it's sad. Halfway through October and I'd settle for avoiding relegation. :^(

Sean McCarthy
142 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:50:15
Stewart (#79)

If Sandro Ramirez is part of the "bedrock of our future" then we are surely fucked!!! He is, along with Klaassen, absolute dog shit!! He came on tonight ran around a bit and got in people's way!!

When you think of the history of the number 9 shirt at Everton (Dean, Lawton, Pickering, Royle, Latchford, Sharp and (sometimes) Ferguson) then look at the two most recent custodians of that shirt it is heartbreaking!!

And if Ramirez is an example of the type of player our "highly regarded" Director of Football is bringing to the club then heaven help us!!

I'm not saying Ramirez was the reason we lost tonight but, when you're chasing the game and in need of a goal, is he seriously the best we can call upon??

As for some of the others tonight, Holgate is simply not a right back and had a mare. Keane looks like a Championship player but I'm prepared to put that down to his confidence being shot and playing alongside Ashley Williams who should have been sent off before he scored, looks about 2 stone overweight and even had the temerity to give the Gwladys Street crowd the eyes after his goal as if to say "Who's slagging me off now??!!"

Martina is hopeless both defensively and offered nothing going forward. I believe Kenny is injured though, so maybe we have no alternative to Coco at the minute.

Mirallas was his usual self. A few attacking bursts before running out of steam after 60 mins.

I thought Davies did well and looked to get things moving going forward. Also wasn't afraid to get stuck in when needed

Calvert-Lewin is an odd one. Can someone tell me what he's meant to be doing? All the pundits seem to think he's the best thing since slice bread but he very rarely even looks like scoring let alone actually getting a goal. Someone enlighten me .what am I missing??

I could go on but I'll only depress myself further. I hoped he'd take us to the next level, but he's failing miserably. So, for that reason and the utter shite he's serving up, I think it's time for Ronald to go. But does Moshiri have the balls to do it??

Peter Fitzpatrick
143 Posted 20/10/2017 at 01:54:19
I hate myself for saying it, but if they do hire an experienced manager straight away and don't leave Unsy in charge, I would take the likes of Allardyce all day to get us winning games again.

I can't see how Koeman can turn it around now and a back-to-basics approach of playing simple football with players playing in their natural positions could hopefully mean this season isn't wasted.

These players have had either Martinez or Koeman putting god knows what ideas in their head over the past couple of years, and when you see videos of Joe Royle's team from the 90s getting the ball forward quickly, it could be something to get some results and a platform to build on coming up to the January window. We've got no chance of getting Giroud now though.

David Barks
144 Posted 20/10/2017 at 02:02:02
Guys, let's not fight amongst ourselves over small details when we can all see and agree how horrific the current manager is at his job. I happen to believe that Klaassen is not a horrible player because, until he came to this team with Koeman managing him, he was fantastic in both the domestic Dutch league and Europe.

Same goes for Sandro. He came through at Barcelona so they saw his talent. Then like so many others there, he moved on and established himself. Now, under Koeman, he looks like he never played the game before.

Next up: Sigurdsson, a brilliant player for Swansea and Iceland. He goes away on international duty and just scores goals for fun, as well as setting them up. He comes to Everton under Koeman and he looks out of place.

Next up: Keane. Was solid as could be in previous years. Now, under Koeman, he looks worse with every match. Williams also has gotten worse over the past year.

There is a clear trend here, people. These players are not all useless. But the team is useless under Koeman.

Logan Shave
145 Posted 20/10/2017 at 02:02:43
Neil (#91),

“I fully expect that the complete knob who aimed a punch/slap at the Lyon keeper be banned from all football grounds for life.”

Well that's one way to stop Koeman picking him at Centre-Back. ;)

Peter Barry
146 Posted 20/10/2017 at 02:16:18
And on to the next 'Must Win' game... which we will lose, of course, like we lose all 'Must Win' games. Koeman Out!
Ian Smith
147 Posted 20/10/2017 at 02:44:23
I see Leicester are keen to have a big-name manager; I have sent them Ronald Koeman's name.
Phil Sammon
148 Posted 20/10/2017 at 02:45:20
David Barks (#144),

I came on here to write the exact same thing! It's no coincidence that almost every player is having a horrible season.

He has to go. Whether you think it's his fault or not, he is the only person we can change that is going to make any difference. Even if the players are partly to blame, we can't axe the entire First Team can we.

No point in waiting around. Get him out and give Unsworth the rest of the season. The board should be up for it, at least they wouldn't have to give Unsy any money in January.

John Smith
149 Posted 20/10/2017 at 03:34:08
Siggurdson got an assist.
Phillip Warrington
150 Posted 20/10/2017 at 03:52:05
Another loss and another display witch showed just how bad and far away we are. Lyon fielded a weakened team and still outplayed us.

Williams I think summed up the players' attitude when interviewed after the game, when asked about pressure on the manager after another loss, casually replied "That's football".

These players do not like or agree with Koeman's tactics and are just going through the motions. He has already told them through the media he doesn't believe they are good enough to beat the top teams, so why would they want to give 110% for someone who doesn't believe in them anyway?

It is a ridiculous situation that is even more unbelievable as it is allowed to go on, week after week, and destroying any chance Everton have got of attracting any players of pedigree – only players that can't make it in the top teams but still demand big fees and wages because they were in a big team's squad.

Clive Mitchell
151 Posted 20/10/2017 at 04:26:20
Just back. Ernie (#74) – that's what I saw too. The guys tried hard tonight.

As well as what Ernie said, I'd say we had a young team with precious little confidence who showed some real talent. When the crowd rallied to the cause after the fracas, the boys gave it a go. At the end, you could feel they'd been lifted a little by the passion in the crowd.

Lyon were the better team but ,with a bit of luck, the boys could have got a result tonight that might have been a turning point.

So they've not stopped playing; they're not great – and for me, McCarthy, Funes Mori and Barkley, never mind Seamus, would lift this team – but they're not hopeless either.

I'm sorry but I just switch off when I read stuff like 'Got to the pub late... didn't realise Klaassen was playing until half-time' or 'ashamed and embarrassed to go in public with anything Everton' or 'watched the first-half and highlights...'

We've got problems and the Pope's a Catholic, but you can't half tell the difference on here between those who've been the game and seen (and heard) the thing in the round and some of those who seem to be on here just to sound off.

David Barks
152 Posted 20/10/2017 at 04:41:47
Clive,

Oh to hell with you mate. I was there when Carsley struck to beat the shite and watched the players pile on top of one another while I lost my voice for a week. And that's exactly why I said I'm embarrassed right now. This club from top to bottom is showing absolutely no heart and soul and no commitment to win a fucking thin.

Don't fucking lecture me about who has been to the ground and who hasn't. Those at Goodison and following the club around have made their feelings quite known; they're disgusted. That Lyon side was missing half their regular starting 11 and were away from home, and still we looked toothless most of the match.

You cite an idiotic fight that lifted the team? In that fight, Williams should have been sent off; he was lucky. What would you say if the ref had taken appropriate action then?

Ben Attwood
153 Posted 20/10/2017 at 04:51:39
Same old, same old. How much longer do we have to put up with this crap? He should have been sacked after the Spurs, Atalanta, Man Utd week of defeats.

Nothing is improving. Results are crap. Performances worse. Time is being wasted in not acting and giving someone else a go.

Soon we will be too far behind in the Premier League and out of major cups. Come on board – do your job.

Peter Lee
154 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:06:40
Lyon are not a strong side and the manager gave this one away – again.

He set up as 4-1-4-1.

He had a centre-half at right-back and a right-footed, weak-defending player at left-back. He continues to play with a right-sided centre-back on the left of the pair.

I have some sympathy for Williams. His choice above Jags, who at least had the "benefit" of being forced to play on the left for 18 months to accommodate Stones, is bizarre.

Keane was never a top defender. His replacement looked very solid against us because Dyche has a system and consistency from front to back and everyone knows their jobs. Not so here.

Schneiderlin was our holding midfielder. Can't understand the comments all season about playing with two. We don't. Not really... both him and Gueye play five yards too far forward of a back line that won't push out. Space behind our sitters is always easy to exploit.

Schneiderlin lets people run past him and is too focussed on the ball. Cost us a goal Sunday as a result. Same lack of awareness as Barkley. If we were going to play one, it should have been Gueye. The centre-backs should have been told to push up and Gueye told that if he was too far away to piss on them then he was too far away.

The four across the middle? I can understand why some described it as 4-3-3. Both Mirallas and Vlasic came inside from the off with the full-backs supposedly providing width. By its very nature, this is slow and gives you a crowd scene on the flanks. Lookman did better. Can only assume that the others played to orders. Mind you, Mirallas does as he pleases anyway. Extended contract? My arse.

Davies worked hard without being creative as he can be and as for Klaassen! Does anyone seriously think he can make the grade in the Premier League?

Calvert-Lewin has potential. But if he carries on with these stupid flicks, I swear I'll go to Finch Farm myself and tear him a new one. He desperately needed someone with him to clatter their centre-backs. Despite what I said previously, Mirallas might, Sigurdsson probably would. He would also be able to drop off into the hole.

Oh, and Pickford. He puts us under pressure all the time with his short distribution. He has a great, accurate left foot but it gets us nowhere. He is so one-footed that you can see the back four hesitating when they play it back to his right foot. Great goalkeepers use both feet, well. He doesn't, he can't, he isn't and won't be. He's also too short. Poor buy.

We need a manager who can use the squad we've got to get some defensive solidity. Won't be easy. The squad is very unbalanced but we have to go with what we have for the next dozen games. We are looking at a relegation scrap to get above 18th. Brighton and Huddersfield will go back down so it's just one place in reality.

Pick a back four and stick with it. Let it build understanding and confidence with Robles behind them in goal, or Stekelenburg, don't mind but stick with him. They've got to push out, as a unit. Forget marauding full-backs until we've got that solidity.

Kenny, Keane, Jagielka, Baines.

Middle four has to have width and energy to work the flanks from back to front, get the ball forward/wide quickly and protect the back four.

Vlasic, Gueye, Rooney, Lookman

Front two, Calvert-Lewin with Sigurdsson working alongside and off him.

Tell the squad that this is the team and that whilst personnel may change roles will be the same.

The man to do this? Benitez. If he won't leave Newcastle, then Allardyce.

John Pierce
155 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:08:31
The thread is littered with posts that saw improvement tonight!?

Have our standards become so low that we see a team with no purpose energised by the stupidity and violence of Williams, andn suspect refereeing decisions?

The quality we showed tonight was moribund. In truth with the exception of Pickford we could have been hammered. He was excellent, acting in desperation several times after we were cut open.

Sadly, the fact Koeman felt he had the remit to rest players in stead of Sunday's game tell me he's far away from the sack as he can be.

We as a club are in a horrible mess. Another month of this and the ‘R' word will be in regular circulation.

Carl Tiler is laughing his tits off atm! The lad could walk into that side with Keane & Williams playing the chuckle brothers.

Truly abject.

Will Mabon
156 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:16:31
John, from what I heard in the commentary, saw in brief highlights, and read on here, there was an improvement in effort and commitment. It's only a small thing and we're still woeful, but that's the way many saw it.
Will Mabon
157 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:19:20
Peter – Allardyce; no, just No.
John Pierce
158 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:33:02
Will,

The ‘effort and commitment' were players crashing into the opposition, Davies & Mirallas in particular, with nothing to show for it. It was just an illusion of energy.

Williams behaved like a thug, even his goal ‘celebration' merited a 2nd yellow, the crowd – starved of any other sustenance – latched onto this as a way back into the game. In reality nothing was further from the truth. A mirage.

The selection of a younger side, and the introduction of younger players later in the game whilst it artificially feels great – and yes they run around a lot, –it provided very little quality to proceedings.

So desperate are we for an inkling of improvement that ‘that' performance was considered gutsy and unlucky.

We were terrible, directionless, scored a set piece and did a passable impression of a colander.

One note on the idiot that presides over this shithousery. All night, Koeman was chastising players from the technical area. No encouragement at all.

As per my first post, Pickford deserves great credit for his performance, most poignantly to him, it must just feel like last season. 😵


Brian Murray
159 Posted 20/10/2017 at 05:52:32
Nearly 6am and I thought I woke up to Unsworth on tv with big proud grin, saying "I will maximise everything from this squad and play men in proper positions."

Plus Bill moved sideways into an ambassadorial role... Alas, just a dream. Hopefully just until Sunday night. Get a grip. We are family, Farhad.
Will Mabon
160 Posted 20/10/2017 at 06:27:54
John, I'm not defending anything nor being positive, just acknowledging that at least some of the team tried something, it appears. A touch of endeavour perhaps, against the whole backdrop of flat, surrendering play so far this season.

It's long past the point of no return – a total re-set is required.

Paul A Smith
161 Posted 20/10/2017 at 06:38:18
I thought the players played for Koeman tonight to be honest. Unfortunately, it's the same point again. They are nowhere near good enough.

Even the potential players are not ready to be starting games at this stage.

Ian Hollingworth
162 Posted 20/10/2017 at 07:18:00
The manager is obviously out of ideas and just shuffling the pack each game hoping something works. Clearly he is not, nor will he be, the top manager we hoped he would be.

Players are shot of confidence and we have too many that do not have the quality required anyway. Inept transfers, the selling of 3 strikers and recruiting zero should be enough for some heads to roll.

Yes, we all got excited at our early business but let's be honest we have been starved of success and any signs of ambition for so long that we were easily fooled.

Kenwright is still chairman and presiding over the clubs worst ever run in terms of any success. Moshiri is not looking like the billionaire investor we hoped for but more and more like just another Kenwright business associate.

We, the long suffering fans, deserve more but we really should be used to it, as at Everton for the last 30 years we have been saddled with no leadership or ambition. The club is happy to just plod on.

Sam Hoare
163 Posted 20/10/2017 at 07:24:08
This lame horse needs putting down. It's cruel on everyone to ask things to continue as they are.

I like the idea of Mauro Silva. I also think that Fonseca from Shakthar looks interesting. I really like Unsworth but to hand him this complete mess as his first team debut would seem a bit unfair to me.

The board will be slow to act as usual so I expect it will take a loss vs Arsenal and Leicester to bring things to an end.

I just pray that these players are capable of better as Koeman's failings in no way excuse all of their shortcomings too.

Sorry days

Raymond Fox
164 Posted 20/10/2017 at 07:44:33
Stewart 140, I think you need to live in the present mate.

You say we are the 4th most decorated team in the land, yes but that's 20+ years ago and something to be proud of, no doubt, only history does not win you anything now.

You go on to say we have signed great players? This is part of some fans' problem, they over-estimate the quality of our squad and this only leads to more and more disappointment.

I've been a supporter since 1965 but that means fuck-all as far as the position we are in. Again you state you want a top manager and list a number of the so-called elite managers. It's okay wanting something but it's another thing getting your wish. Bear in mind these managers have some of the best players in the world playing for them also.

You mention Big Sam as someone we don't want... I'll tell you what, he would whip us into shape. I would take him all day long as he gets the best out of the resources given to him; it's nice to win pretty – but we need to win first!

Steve Bird
165 Posted 20/10/2017 at 07:52:43
Amongst all this crap, Steve Walsh slinks away in the shadows...

I wonder if he has his a perpetual smug self-satisfying smile plastered to his kite now??

Ray Jacques
167 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:11:04
David Barks. I don't always agree with you, but I cannot argue this time.

2 wins in 12 matches, not the bright new dawn we all expected at the start of the season is it? More worrying is the style of football and manner of the defeats and no signs of a recovery (bit of huff and buff in the second half only last night but ultimate failure doesn't cut it for me.

For those who live in the past and go on about an Oxford moment, well did we not get that a few weeks ago against Bournemouth when the forgotten man scored two and we came from behind to win? Not exactly kicked on, have we???

I've been a supporter for 45 years through good and bad but my enthusiasm levels are at an all time low. The Koeman effect has rubbed off on me so god only knows how the players must feel on a day-to-day basis. It just isn't working.

Craig Walker
168 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:12:56
Everton and me are nearly at an end after 40 years of being together. We're only staying together at the minute because of my 6-year-old son. How did it come to this from the glorious and happy days when we first met to the point where I can't take any more of having my days ruined and endlessly arguing with our neighbours and other people who don't give a shit about either of us?

I keep looking longingly at others now thinking "why can't you be like them?" The emotional and monetary expense has got too much for me now. I think we should try a bit of a separation and then get together again at the weekends once you've finally listened to my grievances, seen the light and changed your ways.

Ray Smith
169 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:35:40
Would big Sam be such a bad appointment! He was good enough to get the England job, he is certainly an improvement on what we have got.

What I do like about Sam is his philosophy on life, when he says that he only sleeps for 5 hours a night, because there is too much going on in the world that people who spend 10 hours in bed are missing. Life's for living, not wasting time sleeping. However, I can't see him coming anyway.

The board will stick with Koeman and we will have to wait to see how much further we sink into obscurity.

Once a blue, always a blue.

Phil Walling
171 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:43:00
So Koeman's view is that it was all the ref's fault but "we have not the quality to play the short game".

I wonder whose fault that is?

Once the blame game starts, it's all over. He's just a big defeat to Arsenal away from the trap door.

What a big let down he's been!

Peter Laing
172 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:53:13
The good ship Everton right now needs steadying. Massive ego and dodgy dealings aside the big Sam shout in the cold light of day is not a bad one – certainly until the end of the season on a short term contract. It's too risky in my opinion bringing in an untried and untested European coach as our current predicament is perilous and such a gamble could prove to be catastrophic.

We need somebody with a no-nonsense attitude to galvanise the team and get a tune out of a group of players clearly under performing and bereft of confidence. Unsworth could be a shout; it's a complete no to Moyes.

Phil Sammon
173 Posted 20/10/2017 at 08:54:25
I'm really shocked how many people want Allardyce at Everton. A more arrogant man you will not meet. I think him or Pardew at Everton would completely end it for me. I love this club so much, I couldn't bear to see someone like that at the helm.

Unsworth just seems like a no-brainer. At least he would have the players playing for him and the fans would be 100% on his side. He may even have some idea how to organise a football team.

Michael Lynch
174 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:02:31
I feel for the likes of Calvert-Lewin because they may well always be associated with this dreadful team. If it wasn't for the club's incompetence, Calvert-Lewin would still be in the U23s learning his craft, maybe getting the odd first-team game from the bench or in the League Cup.

As it is, he'll be tainted as one of Koeman's disasters. I think he's got real talent, but will he get another chance at Everton under the next manager who will surely buy in at least two experienced forwards?

Craig Walker
175 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:02:55
Realistically, Unsworth or Benitez for me.

Allardyce or Moyes II and I'm done.
Kim Vivian
176 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:12:33
I am not mitigating anything from last night but I did think we showed at times there is definitely a decent team in there somewhere. Some glaring inconsistencies and errors which need to be ironed out but not a lost cause for sure.

I do not know exactly how much it would cost us to pay Koeman out of his contract (and I guess also it is likely we will have to compensate another club if we lure their manager in), or just what the prize money is this term, but if we got someone who could shift us a minimum 7 or 8 places up the table by the end of the season (easily doable if the squad is used right) there's about £15/£16m(+) straight off recouped.

This is all getting out of hand now and it pains me reading the club, players, manager and virtually everyone down to tea lady getting slagged off day after day on here and in the media. Even Dan Meis and the stadium plans. Quite depressing. Please let it all be over soon and let's get some optimism back.

Smell the coffee, Moshiri, wake up and move us onwards.

Anto Byrne
177 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:14:14
It was pretty awful. Disjointed and misplaced passes. Holgate is a central defender so why not have 3 guys in the back? Davies and Baines as wing backs and rest Baines on Sunday?

Sigurdsson and Klaassen in the middle and let's go for it with Mirallas and DCL (running as centre forward ffs). If it's so important to win do get Rooney there for half time then get Lookman on. Koeman needed to get this team up for it as a massive game 3 points and not to worry about Arsenal.

Koeman has lost it and 12 games in it's going backwards. The fans would have settled for a point with a game on Sunday then to Chelsea to try and build something. 3 games in the Europa still worth 9 pts but we're unlikely to qualify now. Koeman has blown it so let's do the limitation management and let him go.

Ray Smith
178 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:14:20
Phil (#173),

Sam may appear arrogant to you and possibly many others.

A mate of mine and me were in the clubhouse of a golf club in Spain. Sam was there on his own. We offered him a beer which he declined whilst taking a phone call.

5 minutes later 2 beers arrived courtesy of Sam, then he came over and asked if he could join us. We spent the next hour talking about life in general, rarely discussing football.

If that's arrogant then I'm a Dutchman! Excuse the pun but in comparison our current incumbent Ronald Koeman is arrogant.

However, we are stuck with him, so we can whinge and whine all we like... we are stuck with him.

Neil Gribbin
179 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:15:50
If Allardyce is what people are thinking is the answer, then we are in more trouble than I thought.
Dave Abrahams
181 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:22:52
Koeman has said, it is out of his hands it is up to the board to make the next move. Losing his job at Everton doesn't bother him, but he is not moving without his pay-off. He will cost us financially, but I believe he will do a lot more damage to the club, in the long term, for every day he stays from now.
Colin Glassar
182 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:23:36
I wouldn't be too upset with a Euro ban for the shameful scenes last night. We blame Heysel (quite rightly) for our demise in the 80s, maybe a new ban will shake the club to its foundations and rid us of the mediocre shithouses in charge. We need a revolution at Everton.

As for the so-called parent who attacked the Lyon players, I hope he gets a lifelong ban.

Ray Roche
183 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:24:31
I am not advocating Allardyce as next manager, but I was quite surprised to read an article on him recently that made the point that he was years ahead of the game when it came to diet, sports science and some of the attitudes and ideas that are now taken for granted.

As a manager he did not buy into the snooker hall, betting shop and ale house after training that many footballers did and did not allow his players to go down that route..

John Keating
184 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:25:53
Apart from playing two wide players, a plus in my opinion, that is the only thing I can take out of last night's game.

So we put "a bit" more effort in to the second half – great. My grandsons U14 team put as much if not more huff and puff into a game than these overpaid wasters. Can we fall any further?

To be honest, I am glad to all intents and purpose we are out of this nonsense competition. Play the Under-23s against Chelsea next week and lets concentrate on Premier League survival. concentrate.

As regards anyone slagging off any supporters misbehaviour, if we ban them then we have to include Williams.

George McKane
185 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:26:32
A wholly dreadful evening - - went up early straight from work - - pouring rain -- got to The Dark House and the general opinion before the game was Koeman has to go - - however, we all bravely predicted a 1- 0 or 2 -1 win to The Blues.
Consensus after the game was one of pure embarrassment - - 100% opinion that Koeman has to go Now before its too late.
For me personally as a Blue watching Everton since the 1950's it was rather cringing. I sit in the Park End and I could see Williams foolishness and rashness and then to see an Evertonian with a child in one arm raising fists to players and pushing their goalkeeper - - dreadful dreadful stuff to witness - - very poor play - - substitutions that carried desperation with them - - no plan - - no tactics - young players being destroyed - - I am in The Park end and there were many new faces around us who had moved from other parts of the ground - - the sheer vitriol and unpleasantness screamed at certain players - - especially Klassman who was constantly swore at by certain fans by us - - was horrid - - I asked one guy who spent most of the game screaming swear words of a dreadful nature at Klassman to give it a rest - - now that does not mean that fans cannot show their anger and disagreement with the team, manager and players - -of course not - - but serious dreadful foul mouth language aimed at individuals is not what I expect at Goodsion - - I am worried at what Koeman and Moshiri are doing to our great Club - - although we haven't won anything for years our reputation as a Club has always been in high esteem - - after the Williams incident, the fans throwing punches ( and throwing things at the players) and the sheer unpleasantness of a few - - I feel our reputation is slipping into the mud - - if anyone who has any courage or self respect in this Club now is the time to stand up.

On my way out of The Park End I overheard 2 French Fans chatting I went up to them and shook hands and wishes them well. This is the way football should be.

Time to do something Everton. Evil only exists when good men do nothing.

Damian Wilde
186 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:28:43
People talk of banning the fan (agree), what about banning Williams? His behaviour was the worst and a disgrace.
Trevor Peers
187 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:28:58
Why not take Allardyce and have Unsworth as his assistant? Rhino could then learn, while putting in his own ideas.

My fear is Unsworth might be too overwhelmed by the size of the task ahead to be thrown in at the deep end without any experience or guidance. We have to get the next appointment right or it could be disastrous.

David Connor
188 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:42:23
As good as out of the Europa League at the halfway point of the group stage. How bad is that?

The lack of quality in this squad is as bad as I've known for the last 25 years. Below-average players signed for huge sums on huge money. What a fucking joke we have become since this idiot got the manager's job.

I have watched the blues for over 45 years and I have to say that it really pains and upsets me to see how low our standards have become. I hope Koeman along with his brother and Walsh are shown the door next week. Because this team won't even beat Chelsea reserves on our showings this season.

As for the Arsenal game, I expect a heavy embarrassing defeat. Please prove me wrong.

Ciaran O'Brien
189 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:44:43
Koeman has to be sacked as soon as possible. In fact, he should resign after the Arsenal match. The whole first team coaching set-up has to go. Our tactics and performances are absolutely dire, never mind the shite results.

Judging by Holgate's disgraceful laugh, Koeman quite clearly has lost the dressing room. But Koeman is not the sole problem of our total shiteness. Our whole squad is full of piss poor players lacking in pace, height, work rate and intelligence.

Stekelenburg and Robles are dirt backups in goal. Pickford is alright but might never be world class. Martina is a decent crosser, but that's it. Not good enough!

Williams is pure shite – and to think he captained Swansea and Wales. Holgate isn't good enough and was bigged-up too early, he gets bullied too much and is bad in the air.

Baines is finished as a top level full-back, time to move him into a holding midfield role. Besic has heart but Is shite and was bought off the back of one World Cup game. McCarthy is always injured. Klaassen is shite but he may come good but is not a £24 million player.

Keane is totally bereft of confidence and we paid way over the odds for him. Sigurdsson is a dead ball specialist, not a true Number 10, which we wasted too much money and the summer on pursuing.

Lennon isn't good enough but is one of our only options out wide. Mirallas blows hot and cold but rarely gets a run of games. Sandro looks like a headless chicken who doesn't know his role. Niasse is shot but he is a striker. Rooney has been our best player which says something. He is past it as a top striker.

Davies is in poor form but is young and needs to be playing regularly, same with Lookman who hasn't been given a chance.

Schneiderlin has been total shite for so long now and needs dropping when McCarthy's fully (if ever?) fit. Gueye is a great ball-winner but nothing more.

Calvert-Lewin gets rave reviews for his performances but he doesn't score goals. Vaughan, Anichebe and even Beckford did. Bolasie is one of our only wingers with pace but is injured and never really lit up the place before his injury.

Jagielka is our best centre-half but is 35, ffs. Funes Mori is decent but has a clanger in him, but he is left-footed and is a danger from set pieces. Kenny hasn't been given a chance.

Coleman is our only world class player who should be captain but he may never be the same from his double leg break. Vlasic and Barkley are our two other players with a touch of class but Barkley has been messed around for too long by Koeman, Martinez and England. Vlasic will be a great player but needs support.

We need a good striker ASAP in January and a left-sided centre-half and left back.

Koeman has to go and Unsworth needs to replace him till the end of the season. Then we sound out a top coach/manager or give Rhino the job permanently.

I'm just sick of the amateur ineptitude of this club from top to bottom. We have no ambition and are too nice and seem to want to be everybody's second favorite club.

There... rant over.

Colin Glassar
190 Posted 20/10/2017 at 09:57:29
Damian, lifetime ban for both of them would be justified. Where were the stewards last night? One arl fella to control hundreds?

If we don't get banned, expect a hefty fine and maybe our next home game (Atalanta?) to be played behind closed doors.

Kenwright and Koeman out!!

Michael Lynch
191 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:00:00
Just been announced that Merseyside Police will be investigating last night's incident. I'm assuming that means they're sending in the Fraud Squad to look at our manager.
Tony Marsh
192 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:00:05
Ciaran @ 189

Well said, mate. 100% right on the button. If we leave Koeman in charge any longer, he will ruin the decent youngsters Unsworth has nurtured for years. That is unacceptable.

Colin Glassar
193 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:11:11
This embarrassing fiasco is all on the heads of Moshiri, Kenwright, Walsh and Koeman. Every single one of them is guilty of gross incompetence.

The first two for hiring this Dutch gobshite in the first place; secondly, for letting him squander the Lukaku money. Walsh and Koeman for overseeing what is now considered to be a disastrous recruiting campaign in the summer.

Koeman needs to go. A manager who constantly criticises his own players, players he bought, is not acceptable. He's a fucking coward in every respect who's only interested in himself.

James Marshall
194 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:11:21
It was said that having a big-name manager and getting Rooney back would raise our profile, and we're all over the news this morning... sadly for all the wrong reasons.

That fan was pretty incredible, I don't think I've ever seen anything like that before. The worst thing is he'll be banned and his kid will not be able to go to the game again either. What a dick.

Keith Monaghan
195 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:12:17
Just a point on the game, in particular the incident where Williams could/should have been sent off:-

Did nobody notice it was a clear push, with no attempt to play the ball (and therefore a penalty), on Williams by the keeper immediately before Williams reacted stupidly by barging into the keeper on the line?

David Connor
196 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:18:20
Just seen the post match interview with Koeman. He stated he is going to play a more direct style of football because the players he has are not good enough to play his style of football. Well, he signed most of them, didn't he? If they aren't good enough, why the hell did he sign them in the first place???

I really think he is asking to be sacked so he can pick up a huge pay-off because he knows he isn't good enough. Fucking unbelievable what shit he comes out with. Get rid, for Christ's sake, please.
Colin Glassar
197 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:20:01
James, our profile has been raised but for all the wrong reasons.

The French media are saying how poor our football was last night. The world's media is focusing on the yob with the kid. The red tops are talking about Koeman looking like a dosser, and the broadsheets telling everyone that we now are the worst English team in European history.

I think we should ban ourselves before we cause ourselves more shame.

James Stewart
198 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:32:55
Correct, Colin. It really is embarrassing to be a blue right now. Even more so than in the slow death of the Martinez era. The fact that Koeman is allowed to continue tells us all we need to know about the board and Moshiri.
Steve Ferns
199 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:39:46
Dominic Calvert-Lewin has all the tools in his locker to be at least a very good player. He is fast, committed, gets about the pitch well. He has scored goals consistently at a lower level, and showed good finishing.

Obviously, it is a big step up to the Premier League from youth level, even U20 World Cup level, and he's measured in goals, and in goals he is coming up short.

One thing I would point out is that he has rarely, if ever, started two consecutive games up front. He seems too desperate at times for me. I think the manager (as it may not be Koeman for this entire period) needs to say to Dom: "You are my Number 9, you will start the next 5 games, no matter what. Just play your game and the goals will come." If he got such a run, without pressure, then I believe the goals will come. If not, we are practically in January by then anyway.

Klaassen appears to be completely shot on confidence. I am one of the few who really do rate him. Now, I do not rate him on what I have seen for Everton, it's on what he has done for Ajax. But people need to remember what he is. He is an excellent one-touch footballer; he has a rare and exceptional skill of controlling the ball whilst running at full speed, and somehow changing direction like he hasn't got the ball.

He moves like he's on a computer game. But it's all about one-touch passes, flicks, lay-offs, and these are all done with similar players in tight congested places. The problem I see is that the players around him do not play his way and he cannot be what people want him to be.

Is he a bad signing? Yes, I think he is, but not because he is not a top player, or could not be a top player, but because he is very much a square peg for our round holes. We should look to loan him back to Ajax in January for the rest of the season and then look to recoup our money when he's back in form in the summer. Or appoint a manager who can utilise his exceptional skills.

Last night's formation was certainly a 4-3-3. There's no doubt about it. The midfield 3 were tight and compact. The thing is, the formation can look like a 4-5-1 as the two wingers were actually wide, but they didn't track back like in a 4-5-1. Also, when Klaassen pushed on, it can look like a 4-2-3-1. Push the wingers back a couple of yards and a 4-2-3-1 is a 4-4-1-1. There's tight margins in football.

The key thing between the 4-3-3 and the 4-1-4-1 is Schneiderlin's position. He was in the same plane as Davies and Klaassen. Klaassen was certainly the furthest forward, but Davies got beyond him on occasion, and he certainly was beyond Sigurdsson. Davies dropped deeper than Schneiderlin at times as well. At the end of the game, it was like he was playing centre-half at times, as the players went gung-ho looking for a goal.

It certainly was an improvement last night. Does that mean the performance was good? No. It means it was better. It could not be any worse, that's for sure. But the commitment and the aggression of players, their willingness to accept defeat, has been very visible for the last couple of months. For me, and I assume others, there was a real sign that they cared. They seemed to fight, quite literally at one stage, and they seemed to care.

Does this mean we would accept that performance last night? No, it was still not good enough. What I mean is that last night was slightly better. And you would hope that they can use that as a level to build on and to get better and better.

Why was it better? Davies provided energy and we looked a different side. Had we had Gueye's energy alongside him, even with Schneiderlin sitting, then I think we would have seen even more, as Klaassen was simply dreadful.

Then we move on to the pace and width. Mirallas looked hungry and was having a decent game, by his own low standards, and Vlasic was showing some great attacking play and linking up well with Holgate. With the pace and width, we looked a lot better, like we all said we would if he did it.

The only downside is that defensively Vlasic was appalling – he let the man run past him, which caused Holgate to make the dreadful rash challenge for the penalty, and this was repeated several times in the game. Vlasic has a lot to learn, and as good as he is offensively, he needs to work on his game defensively.

The substitutions were poor. Lookman came on and we went 4-2-3-1 with the 3 of Mirallas, Vlasic and Lookman. Vlasic struggled as the Number 10 and was much better wide. Mirallas was inexplicably yanked off for Sandro. Like Klaassen, Sandro is a decent player, but it is not working. Koeman know's that that substitution could cost him his job or save his job, so why not keep Kevin on?

I would have thought the sensible substitution would be to send on my least favourite player, Besic, and have him sit alongside Davies, and push Sigurdsson to Number 10 and send Vlasic back wide were he had been playing well. Lookman did a couple of things well but, other than that, he was not good either. Like Calvert-Lewin he seems desperate and needs a run of games without pressure.

Sigurdsson looked okay, but that's boosted by a couple of decent set-plays that included an assist. He was too fleetingly alongside Davies in the 2 in a 4-2-3-1, but he showed glimpses that maybe he can replace Schneiderlin there and play as a deep-lying playmaker. He certainly has more skills to play that position than Schneiderlin does; the question will be over his discipline, tackling, and defensive reading of the game. If Schneiderlin is injured, I would like to see Sigurdsson be given a go there.

James Marshall
200 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:51:39
So against Hajduk we have almost a full-on punch-up inside Goodison which we get fined for; now this. Our reputation is pretty shitty across Europe right now.

Not to mention our shit team.

What a mess.

Derek Knox
201 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:53:25
Well, several hours have passed, and there are no reports of any meeting, so therefore, we can assume that Koeman will be in charge for the Arsenal game.

Another game I fully expect to lose in; how much longer can this be allowed to go on?

We will very shortly, be approaching the stage where, irrespective of who takes over, it will be too late to turn things round.

The new man will take time to instil confidence, get the best team combinations, to start getting results. I fear, if the Board don't act quickly, it will be too late.

Ciaran O'Brien
202 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:55:07
Another thing I'd like to point out was what was the bloody point of the “Italian job” by Walsh and his entourage during the summer? We didn't make one bid for a Serie A player. All our business for the first team was one from Spain, one from the Netherlands and the rest from the Premier League.

It seemed like an expensive and pointless transfer mission which might have been a holiday for the scouting team. It is another example of the amateur workings of the club.

That's alongside the tacky and stupid Angry Birds promotion on our shirts, a shirt sponsor with a dodgy Tanzanian betting company which make our home shirt look like a Sunday league shirt, and Moshiri's weird connection to Sky Sports and his mouthpiece in Jim Fucking White – who's a Rangers fan.

Laurie Hartley
203 Posted 20/10/2017 at 10:56:33
Well the Williams incident made the main news here in Melbourne. Not a good look!

Reading George's post at 185 really saddened me. The club needs grabbing by the scruff of the neck and sorting out. It is going to take someone who won't take any nonsense from anyone, players, coaching staff, scouting system, and the board.

I now think that has become too big an ask of David Unsworth – save him for the future.

Red Adair Is no longer with us so that only leaves Sam Allardyce. He will take a bit of persuading (£s) but he will sort it out and, all things going well, set it up for David Unsworth.

Les Green
204 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:01:40
The last couple of games appear to have answered the question of whether Mason Holgate is good enough for the first team
Alan McGuffog
205 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:05:34
Banned from Europe? Someone once said irony died the day Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize. Seemingly not.
John Hammond
206 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:07:53
All of you calling for Koeman to be sacked are off yer rockers. The man's a genius: a bit of width and pace and look how we played. Who knew?! I'd give him a new contract.

Much better last night so there's a bit of positivity – at least there seems to be some fight in the players and they haven't completely given up. Let's take that into the Arsenal game on Sunday although I can see Koeman reverting back to shoehorning Rooney in and it completely ruining the balance of team. Mirallas definitely deserves to start.

Steve (#199): Mirallas was knackered as usual at that point in the game. I'd forgotten he was still playing.

James Marshall
207 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:19:25
It's funny, people wanted pace, width and commitment, which we definitely saw last night, then the same people are on here this morning saying how sad it is that we've fallen so far as to dare see improvement in the team last night...

You can't have it both ways!

James Marshall
208 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:20:35
Also, that fan has been banned: An Everton statement read:

"Club officials have reviewed the footage of an incident where supporters towards the front of the lower Gwladys Street End became involved in a confrontation between players.

"We have identified one individual against whom action will now be taken. This will include a ban from attending future Everton fixtures, and the club registering a formal complaint with Merseyside Police."

Brent Stephens
209 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:25:47
Colin (#190):

"Maybe our next home game (Atalanta?) to be played behind closed doors."

I live in hope.

Ciaran O'Brien
210 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:26:13
I also wonder what Koeman and the coaching team do during training. What do we work on? Do we work on our shape, partnerships, off-the-ball movement, attacking plays, set pieces defending and attacking?

Football is a simple game being ruined by “philophosies” ,“Tiki Taka”, “Gengenpressing” etc. It's as if these styles are a modern phenomenon but they have always been around. I was always told to try and win the ball back after you lose it and to make sure you keep the ball.

Players have too many instructions which is why there's more headless chickens around like Sandro.

Koeman goes on and on about “pressing” but we never do it and always play deep which invites pressure and then we can't counter-attack because we have no pace, runners or play any wingers.

Mike Berry
211 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:27:50
It's not big Sam that we need – it's big Sean from Turf Moor, he will turf out the dead wood.

A top manager that for some does not look fashionable, but he will, and when he goes on to bigger things, we will be kicking ourselves for not bringing him in.

Having David Unsworth alongside as assistant could be the dream ticket!

Steve Ferns
212 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:29:47
#206 I was in the Park End, John, so Kevin was opposite end to me when he was hoinked off, but he still seemed to have running in him,

But as I said, Vlasic centrally was not working, so it made more sense to push Sigurdsson forwards and Vlasic back wide and bring on Besic, than send on the out of form Sandro, when we are desperately chasing a result. We needed scrappers and, for all of Besic's faults, he is a scrapper.

James Marshall
213 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:39:08
Besic is a passenger – he's headless and a walking red card. Please let's not start down the 'Besic is the answer' route again!
Martin Mason
214 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:41:31
Andrew @31, I'm a big Koeman apologist... I'm really sorry he came to the club, I'm really sorry that he's still here.
Alan J Thompson
215 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:44:12
If he doesn't walk then he needs to be escorted from the premises. His replacement? David Unsworth with an assistant of his own choosing.

It's not time – it's past time and it's fast getting to that point for the Board. Will it happen? I don't think any of them has what it takes, it's now a matter of self-preservation.

Lawrence Green
216 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:47:48
Simon Hughes in his match report in the Independent, for the Lyon fixture writes:

Farhad Moshiri was not one of them but there were those high up at Goodison Park – let's call them old timers – who were not unimpressed by Koeman's start as Everton's manager, not because of results but approach; his reluctance to ingratiate himself into this club's very particular culture, his sense of otherness...

I can't be 100% certain but surely Simon Hughes meant not impressed? Otherwise that paragraph makes no sense?Hughes continues:

It is Moshiri and not Bill Kenwright who makes the final decisions at Everton now but with Kenwright still heavily involved in counselling and considering he places so much value on personal relationships, especially in lean periods, will Koeman have displayed enough ardor for an institution he loves so much? Koeman was never viewed as a long-term appointment by the fans. It feels like he is running out of friends.

It's little wonder that the team are in disarray and the manager isn't performing as well as he ought to, if the leadership at the club is apparently divided.

Moshiri, if it is he who calls the shots, needs to find out what is happening behind the scenes at Goodison, he has to ensure that it is his vision of the club that prevails; if the Chairman or his board are undermining that vision, he has to act and act now.

The only way that Moshiri has spoken to the supporters on many occasions is via Jim White, why is this? Why doesn't he use the communications department at Goodison to air his views?

Bill has been mostly silent in the last couple of years, as have the other board members. Therefore the supporters are left to fill in the voids when things are going awry and it leaves the club looking amateurish and dysfunctional and open to criticism.

I think I would have preferred a complete break with the past when Moshiri purchased his shares in Everton FC, that's not a slight on any of the previous owners or board members, only an observation that two jockeys riding the same horse in the same race is not usually a recipe for success.

Changing the manager may not have any effect on the team's results if the owner and the board aren't in agreement about the ultimate direction of the club and the method of getting there. It may not be a struggle for power, as has been the issue in the past, but Moshiri and the board have to present a united front for the benefit of Everton FC. Who runs the club is unimportant but the way that the club is run is very important.

John Hammond
217 Posted 20/10/2017 at 11:55:30
Steve (#212): Fair enough mate I hadn't heard from him in a while so thought it was his usual stamina issues.

Not sure I would've brought Besic on. Sandro puts himself about and has more chance of getting a goal than Besic but as you say the downside is he's out of form/low on confidence.

Ciaran (#210): I brought this up recently on here that Koeman banged on about pressing last season but this season I don't recall him saying much about it, if at all. I stand corrected on this though!

Tom Bowers
219 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:08:58
I disagree that Everton's Europa League hopes dealt a crippling blow. They never had any intentions of doing well in this competition much as they have no aspirations of the League Cup or whatever name it goes by now. Team selection tells everything even if it's the same team that is struggling in the Premier League.

Everton in hindsight have signed a useless manager and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise this and that is why Moshiri has to have the guts to fire him now.

This is an awful time for the Everton fans and the club in general. They appeared to have so much talent but nothing is happening on the field. One can clearly see the lack of confidence in almost all the players and those like Holgate and Davies are now going backwards under Koeman and his crew.

Koeman has been unable to inspire or create an intensity level at all this season in any game and it will not change, one can see that in the body language of the man himself. He couldn't even shave before yesterday's game.

Come on, Moshiri, save us from any more pain.

Colin Malone
220 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:21:04
To all who are slagging Koeman, including myself, we were too glad to see him come to Everton. I have not read any, "I told you so" threads.

As for, "Let's put Unsworth in temporary charge" – I'm gobsmacked, unbelievable. Big Joe, yes, with Sheeds. Not Unsworth.

James Marshall
221 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:24:58
I saw Koeman bellowing at the players during the game yesterday, and they seemed energised and up for it. We lost though obviously, so people get the impression it was all Koeman's fault again. I just think we lost a game of football last night.

My worry is who we bring in, and if it will actually make any difference. All he needs to do is play with some width and pace, which he did last night, and we were much more competitive in my view.

Colin Glassar
222 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:30:33
Has the kid been banned as well? I’m sure I saw him egging his dad on.
Michael Lynch
223 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:33:13
Colin, I'm not sure that was a kid to be honest, he looked a lot older than Lookman.
Rob Halligan
224 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:35:54
Uefa have now charged the club for the incident last night, with the case to be heard on 16th November. Like you, Colin, I've thought they can make us play the final home game behind closed doors but with the case only a week before that game, I doubt this will happen. I suppose they could say the next European home game after Atalanta, whenever that may be, will be played behind closed doors.
Anthony Hughes
225 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:37:23
I think we lost more than a game of football last night. The pent-up frustrations with fans and players went over the precipice last night and, in doing so, has cast our club in a negative light in the football world.

Rightly or wrongly Koeman must go. The whole atmosphere around the club, fans and players seems really dark and heavy under Koeman's tutelage.

Colin Glassar
226 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:42:08
Rob, I hope our next three games are behind closed doors and without cameras. It's too painful to watch sometimes.

Michael, I can lip read and I could see the kid whispering in his dad's ear, “Go on, dad, smash him in the gob!”

James Marshall
227 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:45:09
Press conference live at 1pm on the OS and Facebook... Looking forward to this one...
David Graves
228 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:45:40
Steve @199,

Previously I've enjoyed your analysis but I'm afraid that the discussion over 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1, or 4-1-4-1 is now just a massive irrelevance.Last night, we had as poor a "footballing" back 4 as I can remember.

Add to that the fact that, as much as Calvert-Lewin tries his hardest, we are clearly going to struggle to score goals and I begin to think that formation has very little to do with our terrible situation.

Like some others have already said, I fear that the job may be getting too big for Unsworth and we are rapidly heading into Big Sam territory.

James Marshall
229 Posted 20/10/2017 at 12:55:11
I think giving the job to Unsworth would be unfair on him – he'd be inheriting a shit-show, with fans seriously pissed off. To my mind, it doesn't serve him well to hand him he reigns when we're in such a mess.
Derek Thomas
231 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:05:59
James @227; He didn't resign – nothing to see here.
James Marshall
232 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:08:41
I'm watching the presser now... it's really dull.

Phil Sammon
233 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:12:36
Just listening to Koeman's press conference and it almost makes me feel for the guy. He looks like a dead man walking. He says a lot of the right things but ultimately that counts for shit. The team aren't performing and he has to be held accountable.
Jim Lloyd
234 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:14:18
George (#185) If you've been going since the fifties (as have I) then you should be no stranger to the darker side of humanity. It's gone on and goes on at all levels of football.

I've seen Refs in Sunday league beaten up, threatened, intimidated and a big percentage is parents who have their own kids playing right in front of them!

It's happened at Heysel, it's happened when Leeds supporters (some of them) ripped up the seats, lunatics have set off flares and killed or seriously injured other fans and there's loads more examples of scum-bag behaviour by supporters of clubs throughout the world.

So swearing, foul-mouth invective aimed at players, is awful but only worse in the level of foul-mouthery. (I know that isn't a word but it's the one that says what I want to say.)

There's a feller that sits behind me who loudly criticises players from the start of every match and carries on right through it. He doesn't swear but what kind of support he gives to the team, I'll let you work out. and makes no concession to our younger ones either... they all get it. He doesn't swear but that seems to make him happy.

Any big crowd where emotions run high, is likely to contain a percentage of cretins who will use the anonymity of a crowd to give themselves an opportunity to display there idiocy. It should not be condoned. If they are spotted, then kick them out.

But by no means let it be spread about, that it is something that happens only at Goodison Park. There will be plenty vultures enough who can't wait to do ordinary men and women down, don't add to it.

It was the football we played that depressed me most last night. I wrote on T/W about a month ago, maybe longer, that to me, we are as bad as in any of the bad times that I've witnessed in getting on for 60 years of watching the Blues.

I can just remember the state we were in before Bobby Collins came to Goodison (poor!) and within a couple of years, we were watching some of the best football I've seen from a team in Blue. Opinions differ but my own is that Catterick dismantled the team that Johnny Carey was building. Others will differ but we saw some great football for nearly a decade. Then it was nearly 15 years of stuttering and sometimes dire, football until we saw Kendall's kids... fabulous but gone all to soon.

Then again, some narrow escapes from relegation, one solitary cup win and then more ups and downs with Moyes and Martinez.

Now, this club, in my view is in real danger of seeing our team relegated. It is in as bad a state as in any of the bad times that I can remember.

I can remember signing the petition to see Howard go. He turned the fortune of the team round and we became the best team in Europe, then it was allowed to be dismantled all to soon.

Can Ronald Koeman get these players to start playing as a team? I very much doubt it.

The Board have a massive, massive decision to make! If they do not make it soon, and in my view it would be right after the Arsenal game, then the chances of us getting right in the middle of a relegation scrap increase with each week that goes by.

I hope to the gods that I'm wrong.

Michael Lynch
235 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:14:57
A Koeman press conference without the words "and for that reason, I am resigning as of now" is not worth watching.
Dick Fearon
236 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:16:52
And another thing: prior to the introduction of subs they go through page after page of sketches and instructions that do not seem to have any bearing on said sub's game. Surely, a player having had at least 20 years of specialised training should not need an in-depth list of instructions.
Tony Marsh
237 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:17:58
The handbags that went on last night at the Street End are the least of our worries. The club is crumbling at the foundations and the custodians of EFC either don't give a fuck or are clueless morons. Either way, we are in the mire here and the Billionaire and Bill just sit there and do nothing.

I am still sticking to the "We don't have the funds to sack him" line as I can see no other reason to keep Koeman.

It's not all bad though, guys – we've still got that shiney new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock to look forward to. After all, Moshiri and Kenwright promised us so it must be a cert to happen. We do trust our board, don't we, Guys?

Brian Harrison
238 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:24:11
I think the question the board are now deciding is when (not if) Koeman is to be replaced. But anyone who thinks a new manager will turn this around quickly, best think again.

Watching last night Michael Keane was slow and ponderous and I have seen tankers turn quicker in the Mersey than he does. I think playing for Burnley played to his strengths which is heading the ball, and at Burnley he defended just in and around is own box. Now, when we push up, he has no pace to get back. So whoever replaces Koeman isn't going to make Keane quicker or turn better.

I said the other day by and large we have a group of journeymen players, no real special talents and the others are kids trying to learn and make their way in the game. Rooney was a special talent but that's not been the case for the last 3 or 4 seasons. Because of our failure to buy at least 2 top quality strikers, Calvert-Lewin has had to play virtually every game whether wide or down the middle. I think he looks to be a prospect but to expect him to shoulder the burden of being our main striker is bordering on being cruel.

So we can't alter this till January; so I can't see our league position altering too much till then. So a long hard and worrying season ahead, I fear.

Kevin Tully
243 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:25:17
You really couldn't make it up. After splashing out over £220m since he's been here, one of the highest paid managers in the world has just said:

"We need to go long and fight for the second balls."

He's basically admitting he can't coach his team to pass a ball! I fucking give up. If this board don't act within the next 7 days, we will be at serious risk of relegation. The manager has admitted to the whole of Evertonia his plan is to twat it long and hope it sticks. I literally don't even want to go on Sunday. Never said that before.

Paul Holmes
244 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:29:28
After spending £140/150 million and as a fan watching all the games this season, we are rubbish! Can any fan say they have been entertained by Koeman's football philosophy?

Moyes will be back in charge by the time we play Leicester with the aim of keeping us in the Premier League, we are unfortunately that bad.

Hopefully we can offload these bad buys in the next two transfer windows and buy some good players like Watford scouting system managed to identify.

Carl Taylor
245 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:35:02
Just debating with another Blue in work and he said Koeman should stay because what will a new manager do, we still won't have a striker. I asked the following;

What system do Everton play?

Which attacking player has started 3 matches in a row, in the same position this season?

What is, for example, take Holgate, Martina, Vlasic, Sigurdsson – what is their preferred/strongest position?

Don't Know, Don't Know, Don't Know.

Why? The manager doesn't know either.

So, get someone in who has a system, plays people in their right place and tells his first 11 that they are his first 11, so they aren't frightened of trying something because they'll be benched next week. That is were the fear we are continually told we are playing with comes from.

Koeman has to go now or, come January, our only signing will be 'Big Sam' to try and save us from the Championship.

Rob Halligan
246 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:37:47
Come on, Kev. Don't give up the fight, mate.

See you in the Winslow on Sunday.
Tony Marsh
247 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:40:11
Carl @ 245,

Tell your mate that Koeman has lost the dressing room, he did so last season. You can never get that back.

Another manager will at least give some energy and new ideas. Koeman's tactics are prehistoric. Making decent players look terrible. This is why we must change.

Jim Lloyd
248 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:41:13
I think if we leave it to January and the "Window" it may well be to late. My fear is we will not be able to alter the situation if Koeman stays. I think we are on the precipice looking down at a relegation battle and although we can't change the playing staff until then, we can have a change of leadership.

I agree with Brian Harrison, that whoever comes in will not likely see us shooting up the table. My view is that we need to have a captain on board who can stop this ship from sinking.

For what it's worth, my view is that a new manager now is probably the biggest risk we take. We have Joe Royle, we have David Unsworth and we have Duncan Ferguson and we should ask them if they would be prepared to take on the job of getting us out of the mess that we're in.

It seems to me that we need to start building a Team from scratch, a team where each man has his strengths improved and his weaknesses covered by the fellow team members around him. That would be a start.

Craig Walker
249 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:42:38
I think "but okay that's football" and "it's difficult" are starting to grate as much as "phenomenal" now.
Raymond Fox
250 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:43:41
The incident last night was a handbags job. Their goalie nudges / pushes Williams, he in turn pushes him a little harder, no big deal except Lyon players pile in and so the pushes continue!

One of our ardent fans pushes a Lyon player and common sense prevails and its over in less than 20 seconds.

I'm not condoning the incident by any means but everything gets blown out of all proportion by the media, who like nothing better than to sensationalise anything that will titillate their customers.

Phil Sammon
251 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:44:42
Surely it's a massive boon that, if Koeman goes, we get Barkley back. I mean the lad has work to do but I'd pick him over Koeman any day of the week.
Michael Lynch
252 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:45:50
Brian @238-242,

I think you've hit several nails on the head several times there...

Charles Brewer
253 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:54:19
Frankly, the most exciting thing that went in last night was the scrap. It was strictly handbags and no-one even looked like getting smacked properly but it was still more exciting than anything else in the 90 minutes.

It also led to a goal based on aggression and passion. Two things entirely absent from Goodison for a long time. The last time it was really present was in the Dogs of War years.

As for the supporter who had a flap at their goalie, despite all the pearl-clutching from the media, it was far less thanhappens in any town centre on a Saturday night. This was not Inter city firm stuff and would not even get noticed in most European matches. This is a football match, not Magnus Carlsen's defence of his world chess title.

When you get players who spend most of the match diving when someone gets within a couple of yards, I am perfectly happy when Tom Davies, Mo Besic or Ashley Williams gives them something to whine about.

Maybe they should start with a scrap vs Arsenal...

David Israel
254 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:55:03
The notoriously articulate Simon Jordan has made some good points on Sky. We could do with someone like that on the Board (yes, I know Palace went into administration with him in charge, but that's not my point, obviously):

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11671/11089035/ronald-koeman-not-the-right-man-to-get-everton-out-of-trouble-says-simon-jordan

David Graves
255 Posted 20/10/2017 at 13:56:15
Raymond

"Hand-bags"?? Williams was the captain for god's sake and he clearly lost it. Sunday pub team behaviour.

And if that's what it takes to be an "ardent fan" then I despair.
It was shocking and abhorrent behaviour that is being shown around the world.

Raymond Fox
257 Posted 20/10/2017 at 14:09:09
David, 'shocking and abhorrent behaviour'???

Williams should have in a perfect world calmed down, admittedly, but he was grabbed by the Lyon player and the rest of their team then joined in.

As Charles (#253) says as well, it was strictly handbags. You see much more violence on the field of play every match day when players get shown yellow or red cards.

Colin Glassar
258 Posted 20/10/2017 at 14:15:22
The highlight of the presser, for me, was that he’s had a shave. The rest was like watching tulips grow.
Joe Edwards
259 Posted 20/10/2017 at 14:44:35
Although the accent is different, the pre- and post-match comments by Koeman are as alarmingly detached from reality as Martinez in his last few painful months.

Koeman looked completely shell shocked on the touchline last night, but the guy does himself absolutely no favours whatsoever with his woeful team selections. Martina must have nude photos of Koeman in clogs to blackmail him with as I can see no justification for his selection in our team; the same can be said for Klaassen Williams and Sandro.

The resting of Baines for the Arsenal game was nothing short of incompetence. Calvert-Lewin is going to be a good player in the future but at the moment he is buckling under the weight of expectation where he should be allowed to develop .

I hope Schneiderlin remains injured for the rest of the season we were much stronger without him. The only positive that can be taken from last nights game was Koeman playing one No 10.

I can only hope and pray that Moshiri ends this soon before we end up in the same self destruct spiral as Aston Villa and Sunderland did.

George McKane
260 Posted 20/10/2017 at 14:46:49
I will be on Granada Reports this evening around 6:15. Live talking about "the incident".

Mmmmm....

Nitesh Kanchan
261 Posted 20/10/2017 at 14:50:46
Any links for the U23 game?
Jim Lloyd
262 Posted 20/10/2017 at 15:00:47
I think there's a real danger that the media are rubbing their hands with glee that they will have "something sensational" to gloat about; and if we're not careful, this aspect will do nothing but harm to our club.

It has already taken over the headlines from the poor state of our team. Let it rest.

At least last night the team showed some heart, the fans were up for taking Lyon on and possibly beating them, until Martina and Ramirez played footsie on the touchline.

We weren't good by any means and we're still miles from being a team; but last night, for about 15 minutes we began to show some bottle (not bottles!!!)

David Graves
263 Posted 20/10/2017 at 15:11:32
Raymond,

Sorry for not being clearer – I believe that the behaviour of the adult with the child was "shocking and abhorrent."

Williams's behaviour was just stupid!

Sean Patton
264 Posted 20/10/2017 at 15:47:08
It's all thoroughly depressing...
Ray Smith
265 Posted 20/10/2017 at 15:54:17
Tony (#237),
I agree with most of your points, but the ‘handbags being the least of our worries' is actually part of the problem in the bigger picture of our crumbling empire.

Raymond (#250),
Are you being serious? It may have been blown out of proportion by the media, but it is totally unacceptable behaviour by the so-called fan, and Ashley Williams, who despite people's opinion of him is a senior pro and should know better. What an example he showed as a representative of our club. This will only mask the real issues we are currently facing, which in turn will allow the board to hide behind doing what they should be doing. P45s for Koeman and Walsh.

Charles (#253),
Words fail me, you do see worse things on the pitch and in town on a Saturday night, but that doesn't make it right.

Raymond (#257),
Sorry, mate, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The club is well and truly in the doldrums and we don't need this type of behaviour and publicity to further compound our current situation.

David Barks
266 Posted 20/10/2017 at 15:58:24
It doesn't matter. Come the weekend we will be just about 25% through with the league season and, pending results with Stoke and Leicester who both have very winnable games, we will most likely be sitting in the relegation zone after being taken down by Arsenal. We are also all but out of the Europa League now, but we're required to play the remaining games.

In this same situation, the manager would be gone from each of the following clubs: Man City, Man United, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool. Hell, It might even force Arsenal to get rid of Wenger, except he usually goes out later in the Champions League and floats around the top 4.

This club does not really care though. They have no intentions of actually trying to win anything. The owners of this club view Everton more like Stoke, West Brom and West Ham. Just a club in the Premier League to make up the numbers and keep getting hose fat TV revenue checks.

Only when they feel their gravy train is truely under threat will they take action. That's why it doesn't matter to them that this is yet another wasted season where we've already thrown away any chance of challenging for honors. They never expected that to begin with. The owners simply do not care.

Will Mabon
267 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:18:46
Pics/vid or it didn't happen.

Do we live life completely through the media now? There are thousands of people like Dad of the Year in every large town. And much worse going on. Don't hear much of a fuss. No doubt there's an outcry on "Social" media, a hashtag or two... #takethechildintocare?

No worries, it will all quieten down in a day or two, when the next moral meme comes along – until the club get a fine and other penalties for being unable to predict the exact behaviour of every human in the ground.

Add me to the small minority that thinks the response is inordinate.

Eric Paul
268 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:37:14
Quite right, Will, if "Dad of the Year" was a player and he mug-pushed the keeper, what would the punishment be? A yellow or red card and a maximum ban of 3 games for violent conduct.
Tony Everan
269 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:39:11
Koeman has 2 games left to turn it around.

4 points from Arsenal and Leicester will buy him time.

A narrow defeat by Arsenal and a good win at Leicester may be enough.

Anything less and Moshiri can not afford to keep him .

Anything less means relegation is a real and present danger. That will cost Moshiri a fair bit more than Ron's undeserved payoff.

The groundworks for a replacement will be being discussed in private.

Stephen McNally
270 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:45:27
Has Koeman been sacked yet?
Andy Meighan
271 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:52:04
Kevin (#243),

Did he honestly say that? What a disgrace! I could weep at the thought of this imbecile coaching our team and getting £6 million a year into the process.

He hasn't got a clue and that one statement tells me everything I need to now about the man. For fuck's sake... how have we fallen so low so quickly???

Oliver Brunel
272 Posted 20/10/2017 at 16:53:27
I found Henry Winter's comments on the fan typical of the UK media take on Liverpool; the sanctimonious pontificating, the undertone of 'those violent Liverpudlians', the chance to patronise and belittle...

It was one fan... so he extrapolates with a sociology thesis about those terrible Liverpool parents. Did he never go to a football match in the 80s, the utter bore.

Brian Porter
273 Posted 20/10/2017 at 17:27:12
Koeman is still insisting he has the full backing of the board! Only Everton would continue to back such a loser. I hope he's talking out of his arse, much like his after-game comments which are beginning to sound more and more like those of Martinez before him.
Stan Schofield
274 Posted 20/10/2017 at 17:37:55
Oliver, I'd never heard of Henry Winter until your post. If he's another media pundit or commentator, perhaps the best thing to do is not read the shite that such people churn out. It's only the football equivalent of those gossip magazines.
Charles Brewer
275 Posted 20/10/2017 at 17:38:19
All this crap about people being "horrified", "disgusted" and things being "abhorrent" – exactly how do you react to what the Spanish police did in Catalonia, what happens at any Antifa rally in the USA or any Labour party meeting where Momentum turn up? Exactly what words do you use about ISIS, the London Bridge attacks, Charlie Hebdo, Las Vegas or the Manchester bombing?

In fact, no-one was hurt, at all, not even a little bit. People got a bit excited and there was an idiot in the crowd who tried to get involved. The idea that he could have done any damage while holding a child is just silly.

This was far less serious than the coin throwing which still happens across the park on a regular basis. It was nothing compared with what goes on at matches in the former Yugoslavian countries or Russia.

But in football authority (and journalism) circles, there does appear to be a hysterical reaction to everything so that some Neanderthal insulting a player is instantly an event on the level of Heysel.

Not everything that is bad is as bad as everything else that is bad. Otherwise we find that nicking a couple of sweets ranks alongside genocide.

Stan Schofield
276 Posted 20/10/2017 at 17:45:58
Charles, good perspective, as opposed to drama queen over-reaction.
Will Mabon
277 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:02:01
"But in football authority (and journalism) circles there does appear to be a hysterical reaction to everything so that some Neanderthal insulting a player is instantly an event on the level of Heysel."

Charles, what you've highlighted is the intrusion of the machine into one of the last bastions of the people – sport. Been hyping up the drama and the memes apace for the last 20years. Social media has been a godsend.

All part of the modern day bread and circuses.

David Graves
278 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:12:25
How the hell is stretching the argument to ISIS offering a different perspective? How about sticking to the actual event?

An adult who had a duty of care for a small child decided to get involved in physical aggression rather than consider the well being and welfare of that child. It was a shocking and disgraceful action.

Ciaran O'Brien
279 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:28:21
Another common trend under Koeman's management and Walsh's tenure as Director of Football. Our transfer dealings have taken ages to complete. Gueye, Sandro and Martina who was free and without a club. These three cost about £12million in total which is nothing in today's market but we dithered around for ages.

Koeman being on holiday in Portugal on deadline day was also unforgivable when we desperately needed a striker.

The whole Barkley Transfer to Chelsea fiasco which is totally unheard off.
Everything reeks of mismanagement at all levels.

Charles Brewer
280 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:35:49
David, I was showing that there is a very long road from nicking sweeties to ISIS and that not every location on the road is of equal standing.

I found the police action in Barcelona "shocking", I found 9/11 "horrifying" (as I did Auschwitz when I went there in the 90s). I find Corbyn's support of terrorism, murder and torture, "disgusting".

I found last night's incident silly, and that the man should have shown a bit more self-restraint, and should have received a bit of a talking to, but that's about it.

To reiterate, no-one, absolutely no-one, was hurt (so it wasn't anything like as bad as Neil Taylor's tackle on Seamus Coleman, or Keane's deliberate assault on Haland, or many of Steven Gerrard's antics), so in terms of outcomes this was utterly unimportant.

It may be that the club deserves some criticism for not having perfect stewarding, but then the players had left the pitch and were encroaching on the crowd. If they had stayed where they should have been, the supporter could only have got near by climbing over the barriers, which he did not (and I suspect could not have).

David Graves
281 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:49:45
Charles.

Williams was an idiot and his conduct as Captain of Everton was significantly below what could reasonably been expected of him.

You are right that no-one was physically hurt but the experience of that small child must have been terrible and possibly traumatic. The actions of that idiot adult can not be condoned in any way by referring to the level of stewarding.

Nitesh Kanchan
282 Posted 20/10/2017 at 18:58:16
Charles, there is no problem with on the face aggression and little bit of passion with pushing and verbal duels, but that crossed the line for me. Someone could have easily ended up bleeding heavily, had one of the punches landed properly.

I just can't understand what exactly happened that triggered reactions of that sort from Williams. Surely Williams is not a madman to hit anyone like that. Probably Koeman didn't even get the message of aggression across correctly.

Charles Brewer
283 Posted 20/10/2017 at 19:14:35
David, "traumatic" derives from the term "trauma". In non-physical use, this has the following definition by the American Psychological Association: "Trauma is an emotional response to a terrible event like an accident, rape or natural disaster."

Small children get very upset when they lose their mothers in a supermarket (the mothers get quite excited too), but again, the experience is not "traumatic".

Being picked up by your father while he takes a swing at someone is probably rather confusing, and may even be a bit frightening. But I'm pretty confident most 3-year-olds would rate being alone for 2 minutes in Sainsbury's as far worse than accompanying your father in a bit of handbags at Goodison, and way below "accident, rape or natural disaster".

We really need to turn down the volume on responses to minor events. I know that there is a vogue for minor perceived slights to be cranked up to hysterical levels by the police and public services, but it does mean that there is nothing left in the vocabulary of emotional response cupboard when something actually bad happens.

And all Williams did was to push the goalkeeper back, I'd have preferred a bit more aggression from a few more players, at least then they look as though they care.

Alternatively, we could introduce rules which ban all football supporters who show more emotion than is evinced when a decent slow bowler gets a maiden on the first morning of a county cricket match. But I don't think it would result in very big crowds.

David Graves
284 Posted 20/10/2017 at 20:56:27
Charles, go and spend some time familiarising yourself with the work of any child development psychologist and then reconsider your ill-informed opinion regards what constitutes trauma for a small child.

You attempt to demonstrate an understanding of developmental psychology but clearly you haven't got a clue.

Colin Glassar
285 Posted 20/10/2017 at 21:00:15
Sounds like we’ve got a few men in white coats on here. Interesting conversation btw.
David Graves
286 Posted 20/10/2017 at 21:17:58
"Traumatic events have a profound sensory impact on young children. Their sense of safety may be shattered by frightening visual stimuli, loud noises, violent movements, and other sensations associated with an unpredictable frightening event."

So not a rape or a natural disaster. But very probably from being carried into a violent incident by the adult that you trust to look after you.


Mike Dolan
287 Posted 20/10/2017 at 21:31:47
Against Lyon last night, I think there were a lot of things that went well. It would be easier to say that of course if we had a result but there were lots of signs that this ship is beginning to turn around.

We might even benefit by no longer having any meaningful games in Europe as we set about repairing the damage to the collective psyche of the club's players and supporters alike and get back to playing attractive winning football.

If we ever had confidence that the manager and the players that we started the season with were the ones that were to begin lead us to the promised land then surely there has to be something wrong with the currant consensus that the manager is a fool and that his players are just a bunch of overpriced, weak-hearted donkeys.

We all know that this team will play better and that in spite of the disappointing start these players with the addition to a strong number 9 will begin to climb the table and this collective panic will be past us,

We can only look to the evidence of their past history the manager might not be in the worlds top 10 but based on the total body of his work and not the dreadful start he is having to this young season, he would at least be in the worlds top 20.

Even though him not naming the team chosen before every game by the armchair managers like Larry from Litherland, Garry from Gateacre, or Derick from Dingle make him seem like he's stubborn.

Koeman deserves to have a complete season before he is judged. The players that came in in the summer deserve to have a complete season before we judge them.

For me, the players who have been the most disappointing are Baines, Jagielka and Williams and even Rooney – all of whom as senior pro's have not shown any leadership at all.

Eric Paul
288 Posted 20/10/2017 at 21:37:52
As the adult in question held the child close he was in effect protecting him regardless of what was going on around him as opposed to putting him down and therefore leaving him exposed to danger, but the best course of action would be to carry the child away from any danger.
Will Mabon
289 Posted 21/10/2017 at 06:03:31
"Trauma" – really?

I could also do without hearing about Safety and people feeling safe every other waking hour, this last few years. It's laughable.

Tony Everan
290 Posted 21/10/2017 at 09:30:51
I'm traumatised twice a week, every week. Stopped shaving, hair falling out, muttering profanities.

Oh wait, that's normal behaviour. I'm an aging Evertonian.

Alan J Thompson
291 Posted 21/10/2017 at 17:16:55
Charles (#275);

As Abraham Lincoln said, "If slavery is right then everything else must be wrong". However, this is a website about Everton Football Club – not the rest of the world and comments/submissions should be looked at from that perspective.

Everton losing does not mean we sanction anything or everything else happening in the world.

Andy Crooks
292 Posted 21/10/2017 at 19:06:49
Good God almighty we are talking about child psychologists and trauma to a small child. The guy has been banned. David Graves, dismount from your high horse and find a modicum of perspective.
Martin Mason
293 Posted 21/10/2017 at 19:12:24
We should have safe space areas at the ground where anybody suffering micro aggression can go for protection.
Eric Paul
294 Posted 21/10/2017 at 20:42:55
David Graves,

How do you think the human race managed to get to the 21st century if we don't like loud noises or violent disorder like alpha males fighting for the right to breed?

And yes we still have the same instincts deep down – that's why the man in question didn't put the boy down. Go to the zoo and watch the apes.

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