Davies withdraws from England’s U21s squad

Wednesday 8 November 2017  157 Comments  [Jump to last]
Tom Davies has returned to Finch Farm from the England Under-21 training camp because of minor hamstring strain.

The Everton midfielder will undergo treatment back on Merseyside in a bid to be fit for the Blues' trip to Crystal Palace after the international break.

 

Reader Comments (157)

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Mike Gaynes
1 Posted 08/11/2017 at 20:44:23
Good lad. Keep yourself healthy.
Paul Holmes
3 Posted 08/11/2017 at 21:12:48
He needs to sort out that barnet... Goldilocks Mk 2!
Neil Copeland
4 Posted 08/11/2017 at 21:14:49
Looks more like Alan Whittle by the day.
Mike Jones
5 Posted 08/11/2017 at 22:03:30
And because he isn't very good. Let's be honest.
Peter Gorman
6 Posted 08/11/2017 at 22:52:28
Ah, that explains it – probably from all that over-hitting the ball into touch.

(I think the world of him before anyone has a go but still, oh dear, Tom!)

Peter Mills
7 Posted 08/11/2017 at 22:58:02
I’ve no idea whether our players, or their mates/family read these sites. But if they do, pass on best wishes to Tom - his form has dropped off slightly, to be expected under current circumstances, but his attitude hasn’t. Good man.
Steve Carse
8 Posted 08/11/2017 at 23:24:18
His form may have dropped a bit but for me he's a starter every time. He gives us energy and purpose in a midfield area otherwise bereft of it.
Colin Glassar
9 Posted 08/11/2017 at 23:32:21
Good point Peter. If true, could someone tell us why Colleen still isn’t wearing her wedding ring? The papers would pay us a bomb for that kind of info.
Andrew James
10 Posted 08/11/2017 at 23:36:56
One of my favourite players.

Doesn't always go right for him, might lose the ball or his sometimes inventive passes go astray but he's back trying to win the ball.

He is an irritant. Driving forwards, defending, blocking...

Quality player and I wish Barkley was in our team because the pair suit each other as no side wants two midfielders coming at you and playing passes thus creating space for one another.

Anybody calling him out doesn't understand his role and the importance of what he does compared to our rather more agricultural midfielders.

Steven Jones
11 Posted 09/11/2017 at 07:44:32
He is also learning in the heat of the premiership but epitomizes the fight we and Unsie needs

After all he is only 21 and has more time to develop . ;-)

Ajay Gopal
12 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:23:29
Hope he gets over his injury quickly, but what I can't understand is how players like Harry Winks and Jack Cork get picked over him for the senior squad, and Davies is asked to play for the England U-21s?
Tony Marsh
13 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:28:21
I don't wish to upset the tinted blue-spectacles brigade but I don't think Tim Davies is or will be good enough to make the grade at the very top level. Tom is too small and lacks pace.

Look at the likes of Dele Alli or Paul Pogba. These lads are typical of what The Premier League is all about: Power, Pace, Height, Physical Presence. The days of the Alan Ball, Peter Reid type player has well gone...

Tom Davies won't be in the Everton side once we get a decent manager. The Premier League is too quick for him. Sorry, Guys.

Kevin Prytherch
14 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:29:41
Steven – he's not even 21, he's still only 19!!

He could be the driving force of our midfield for anything up to 15 years.

Rick Pattinson
15 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:33:25
Gets bad-mouthed a lot but this lad plays 90 mins with an engine that keeps going. He WILL make it at top level and, provided he gets the right training, will become an Everton great!
Charlie Dixon
16 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:36:57
The Katie Hopkins of ToffeeWeb strikes again. Tony Marsh, you don't half talk utter shite.
Tony Marsh
17 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:56:58
Charlie Dixon, what are you on about? Do you think Davies would get in the Spurs, Man City or Chelsea sides? Well, if you believe Moshiri we are destined for the top 4, aren't we? There are NO passengers at that level.

The likes of you hold this club back. Accepting average players as though they are world beaters just because they are local lads. It is Kenwrighitis all over. Davies scores a great debut goal against Man City last season and he dines out for life on it at this club. Remember Cadamateri?? Tom has been worryingly poor this season – a lack of pace and a quick brain being the main reasons.

Get a grip and think about it without the Blue Blinkers on. If Tom isn't a top 4/6 player, he isn't good enough for us. I thought we were thinking big, going places these days? Typical response from a dreamer.

Dermot Byrne
18 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:59:15
Tony, that seems an overly negative view of Tom. I think he has shown some great moments and good energy and commitment.

Perhaps he has also been mismanaged and whoever you think should be manager today will really help Tom develop?

Ian Jones
19 Posted 09/11/2017 at 08:59:15
To be fair to Tony, I sort of understand his comments about Tom Davies. But, of course, he's not the finished article. Doesn't have the build of Pogba or Alli. He has a great passing range (although needs movement from others around him to help him demonstrate it and is a tough tackler. He is also playing in a team devoid of confidence. The fact that he was selected to train with England when he was 17 speaks volumes.

Perhaps a quick look at this link might help put height and build into perspective. If link doesn't work it's about Pirlo. Not tall, not much pace, probably a liability for most teams, but he did ok. :) Tom will be fine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41903596

Mike Jones
20 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:00:33
I also suggested Tom Davies wasn't good enough.
Tony Abrahams
21 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:03:02
He's 19, Tony, but then again I hope he does read ToffeeWeb, because your post will probably do the kid more good than harm!

Everyone loves talent, it's the second greatest gift that can be bestowed on anyone (maybe its first?) but this kid has got the greatest gift, imo. He's 19 and he never lets his head drop, no matter how many things he does wrong.

I've seen senior players go hiding, but it's not in Tom's make-up. He's not the best, but he has got the best belief in himself and, along with Jonjoe Kenny, they have the type of attitude that Everton haven't had since little Tim Cahill left.

The club needs this scouse heartbeat because, although Tony Marsh is half right about the way football has gone, do these players have that true feeling for their team that our young kids have got?

It will hopefully drive them on and make them much better players, in a similar way that it worked for Man Utd in the early nineties. Holgate looked the much better footballer but who would swap him for Jonjoe's heart right now? Same with Tom Davies, a kid with so much to learn, but I think he's already got the greatest gift.

Ian Jones
22 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:05:44
Tony, I also appreciate that Pirlo hasn't experienced the Premier League so my comparison with Pirlo is little tongue-in-cheek. Tom isn't pulling up trees, but he's young and plenty of time in a team playing well.
Ian Jones
23 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:08:23
Two Tonys! My post at 22 was more for Tony Marsh. Agree with post 21 as well.
Eric Paul
24 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:08:49
David Silva and N'Golo Kante must be rubbish to name a couple who are the same height or smaller than Tom Davies and where were they playing at 19?

I agree, his form is not the best this season. He is one of 3 or 4 teenagers starting most games in a side full of seasoned internationals who have been a lot worse than Tom.

Kevin Prytherch
25 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:09:55
The 2 youngest midfielders to start a premiership game this season are:

1. Tom Davies
2. Beni Baningime

Let's give them a bit of slack before we write them off.

Regardless of whether we're a top 4 side or not, they've obviously got massive potential to be starting Premier League games at that age.

Ray Roche
26 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:14:24
Tony Marsh (#13, #17).

"The days of the Alan Ball, Peter Reid type player have well gone..."

"Do you think Davies would get in the Spurs, Man City or Chelsea sides?"

Do you think Alan Ball wouldn't?

John Smith
27 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:15:52
The dreaded Everton hamstring bug strikes again.
Charlie Dixon
28 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:20:48
Tony, how many 19-year-olds do the top 6 teams have in their midfield, Alli & Winks excluded?

I'm under no illusions that he's not the finished article by any stretch of the imagination, and my blue-tinted glasses cannot stomach watching Barkley; however, to start saying he'd be dropped if a decent manager came in is complete and utter drivel.

His effort and determination are second to none and, with the right players around him, he can be top drawer. It's well known the likes of Chelsea were sniffing around him in the summer and I imagine that'll be the case each window until we show the same determination and ambition as he does at the Club.

Jon Withey
29 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:20:49
Let's wait a couple of years before he gets the Barkley treatment...
James Hughes
30 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:22:43
Tony Marsh #17, That is a truly unnecessary and unwarranted post. Just because you don't rate Tom, doesn't make your opinion the only one. Nor should we all bow down to your brilliant insight.

I think that he has been playing olay so far – not great but still trying and putting in effort. Does that mean I wish to hold Kenwright's hand and skip joyfully into the sunset with him? Because I can assure you I don't.

To say that a fan is holding the club back is twisted logic. Should he stand on the terrace and scream like a banshee: 'Tom, you're SHITE, LAAAH!!!'

Not sure about the Katie Hopkins comparison based on that post – more Peter Hitchens, all spleen and vitriol.

Best go, I need to polish my blue blinkers.

Mike Doyle
31 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:23:25
Hope little Lionel Messi doesnt read TW. He's not the biggest lad on the pitch is he?
William Cartwright
32 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:25:19
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Relying on youngsters is a risky business, loaded with sentiment and wishful thinking.

If you are good enough you are old enough (true).

If a player is expensive he is not an assured success (also true).

Reality is that quality is like cream it rises to the top. Everton have a good record of bringing youngsters through and that's great. However, if the books balance, then any youngster in the first team should be the best there is in his respective position.

Davies, Dowell, Kenny, Baningime, Walsh, etc should only be played if they are the best firstly within the club playing roster and secondly, if there are no viable better options in the market.

I think this is the dilemma between Moshiri and Kenwright. Moshiri believes you can by success (and you can). Kenwright feels success will come, eventually, if you persevere with the old-school values. Sometimes it does (aka Leicester) but very infrequently.

This is the background of the new manager's appointment. Nouveau riche vs historical association. Is there some middle ground? I hope so, but in the long run, cash will in.

COYB.

Tony Marsh
33 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:30:44
Mike Doyle, read the posts correctly, lad. How many games has Messi played in the Premier League?? Spain is a piece of piss compared to here.
Eric Paul
34 Posted 09/11/2017 at 09:56:27
Tony,

So Aguero is better than Messi?

Martin Nicholls
35 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:01:49
Tony (#33) – so you don't think Messi could hack it in the Premier League then?
Guy Hastings
36 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:02:59
TM33 - so you wouldn't have Messi at Goodison Park? Maybe rest him for Stoke away on a wet Tuesday in February as Football Cliche No 19 goes?
Charlie Dixon
37 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:21:38
I agree with Tony. Messi is toilet. La Liga is dreadful and all his Champions League goals have come against dire oppo.... all 97 of them.
Dave Williams
39 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:35:01
I cant believe people criticising our young players and expecting perfection at 19! Colin Harvey took terrible stick in his first couple of years before becoming the White Pele.

Okay, it's all about opinions but the guys to criticise are the seasoned pros who should be establishing a solid base for the youngsters to work from – not the youngsters who are trying to do a man's job with zero help from the senior players.

Lay off Tom, please – he will be a great player for us!

Tony Marsh
40 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:50:16
No-one is criticizing Davies. I am giving my opinion on Tom being a top player or becoming one. Facts are facts – Davies is small and lacks pace. He looked lost against the big lads of Watford.

Like it or not, the Premier League is all about power, pace and physical presence. Sandro is finding out all about it...

For those shouting "Aguero" – well, he ain't a midfielder. We are discussing midfielders here... Doh!!!

Winston Williamson
41 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:51:42
The lad is 19 - does this mean he has reached the top of his game or does he have a significant space to improve within?

Why is that some fans reserve special abuse for lads who have come through the ranks at EFC?

He's fast becoming my favourite player at the club - incidentally, he was linked with a move to Chelsea in the summer too! I also believe he would get games at clubs in the top 6, maybe not a guaranteed starter, but he would not look out of place in any team in the Premier League.

Mike Doyle
42 Posted 09/11/2017 at 10:51:47
Tony (#33). None that I'm aware of. However his record in the Champions League over the years and his recent performances for the Argies (check their World Cup Qualification performances when he plays and when he doesn't – and you'll get the idea) provide strong anecdotal evidence that he'd probably struggle by over here - a bit like little David Silva seems to.

On a separate point, many thanks for referring to me as 'lad'. As these days an increasing number of youngsters offer me their seat on the bus/train, any suggestions that I might still be young are much appreciated.

Sam Hoare
43 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:24:57
Tony, if you want to discuss facts then Tom Davies is 5ft-11in (bigger than average height in UK) which is bigger or as big as Cesc Fabregas, Ngolo Kante, David Silva, Fernandinho, Wijnaldum, Coutinho, Aaron Ramsey and Frances Coquelin to name but a few midfielders in the top 6 teams.

Pace is harder to find measurements for but I'd wager he is as quick as a few of those players.

I'm not saying that Tom Davies is a top 4/6 player necessarily at the moment, but then we are not a top 4/6 team. For me, despite not being at his best, he has still been one of our better midfielders this season and if nothing else he certainly shows an exemplary attitude. Until we have a team with the likes of Pogba and Alli to pick from, then Tom Davies should absolutely be one of the first names on the teamsheet for me and one day, if he develops his all-round game, maybe he will be able to withstand comparisons to the top midfielders in the Premier League.

Rob Dolby
44 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:34:13
Davies is a future No 10 for me. He has an eye for a pass and isn't afraid of a tackle. He is in my starting 11 all day long.

I don't get the obsession in wanting Barkley to sign a contract. He has been offered a deal and refused it, let's move on.

Eric Paul
45 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:35:43
I was comparing Aguero to Messi. As they are forwards and you were suggesting Messi isn't good enough for the Premier League and Aguero is one of the Premier League's best performers... Doh!!!!
Paul Mackie
46 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:39:58
Tom Davies is an above-average midfielder who will only get better by playing first-team football. How the fuck are young English players supposed to get better unless they're allowed to play at the highest level?
Justin Doone
47 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:42:57
Tom Davies is the best all-round midfielder we have brought through. Chalk and cheese to Barkley who's the best attacking midfielder. Davies has the brain to back up his ability and, more importantly, will always put a shift in and make things happen. Keeps it simple, sees a runner and plays the through ball.

Barkley has the skill to turn and run at defenders but needs to then play the ball. He has become too indecisive.

I would love the two to play together for Everton but I think, unless we get a top class manager before January, in his own head he's better off elsewhere.

And yes, they would both get in any of the top Premier League teams. Maybe not as first choice but they would play plenty of games. Winks, Delph, Couqeline, Ferdaninho, Fellaini, to name a few that are given games but could replace.

Steven Jones
48 Posted 09/11/2017 at 11:55:18
Kevin -14 - that was my point hence the wink :-0)

Dear old Tony Marsh... well, well, well.

Tom's goal, going from one end of the pitch to the other, out-muscling and out-pacing YaYa Toure, and scoring one of the most memorable goals in Goodison history against Man City... shows he has the pace, power and presence to make it in the Premier League.

One of his strengths is to see things instantly and react instantly – that is the real speed of thought at top level. This is what Man City are doing and why Pep has been linked with him.

Ian Tunstead
49 Posted 09/11/2017 at 12:29:27
Marsh talking crap yet again. The opposite is always true. Have a read of what Stephen Gerrard had to say about himself when he was playing in the Premier League at 19, completely out of his depth, when it was said he was too small and not strong enough.
Peter Roberts
50 Posted 09/11/2017 at 12:46:27
Tony

It seems nowadays if a kid isn't pulling up trees 100% of the time at 18 then he won't be good enough. Look at the likes of Kane, Alli, even Vardy who didn't become a Premier League player until 29. Hell, even your idol Osman didn't make his first team debut until he was 23 and he turned out alright (regular in a top-5 team at the time).

Darren Hind
51 Posted 09/11/2017 at 13:29:57
Tony Marsh,

You are embarrassing yourself. Davies has already achieved more than 99% of 19-year-olds trying to make it at the top end of the game.

You're criticism of Davies's performance against Watford is myopic. The kid was having one on Sunday, all teenagers do. He wouldn't have needed anyone to tell him that, but he has the heart of a fucking lion... even now, as a far from fully developed teenager.

Instead of talking nonsense, go back and look at the Watford game again. When their (for the moment) more composed mature and fully developed midfield players had run their race, young Tom was still hunting and getting the victory.

In a period of soulless, lifeless Zombie football, this kid has stood out like a fucking lighthouse. He never hides, never gives up and never stops trying. These are qualities few if any of today's young footballers possess; he is not short on skill either, as we have all seen. This kid will be a Premier League player as long as he stays healthy; how far he will go is impossible to say... but his attitude and natural ability give him every chance.

You might want to get back to championing Big Sam for the job – at least then you won't need to concern yourself with the development of our young midfield players. They'll be redundant as the missiles are launched over their heads.

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth...

Jack Okell
52 Posted 09/11/2017 at 13:57:40
Classic Tony Marsh..."I'm not critisicising the player, I'm just giving an opinion."

Why are all your opinions so negative and idealistic? We don't have players of top 6 calibre, but we have talented youngsters with bags of potential.

Get behind the players for a change and stop spouting your negative drivel, Rodney.

John McFarlane
53 Posted 09/11/2017 at 13:59:06
Tony Marsh (numerous posts) – I am a self-confessed "Glass half-empty" man... but it appears to me that you don't even have a glass.

I have read ToffeeWeb contributions over the years, and (now and then) posted comments myself; I get the impression that, when things are going reasonably, well you are conspicuous by your absence, and now that things are not so good, you have re-emerged.

While I may agree with some of the arguments you put forward, I strongly disagree with the manner in which you deliver them. It seems to me that you take pleasure in promoting controversial issues, which in turn leads to heated debate, and (more often than not) personal abuse.

A few years ago (if memory serves me right), the recipient of such abuse was a chap named Richard Dodd; it appears now to be the turn of Steve Ferns. This is likely to be the only post that you and I will share, because I have no desire to become involved in a war of words – a situation that I believe you relish.

Pete Clarke
55 Posted 09/11/2017 at 14:55:50
There have been periods (many of them) in the last 25 years when the only good thing about watching us was certain players. Andrei Kanchelskis, Beardsley, Arteta, Cahill to name a few.

I would say right now that Given his age, he is the best footballer we have had for years. The only thing he lacks is the positional sense.
Love the lad and hope he becomes our captain.

Peter Cummings
56 Posted 09/11/2017 at 15:05:21
Don't really care what the naysayers have to post about the lad, he personifies what Everton should be all about, guts, love of his club, and above all BLUE from top to toe.

He reminds me of Dave Hickson who literally did sweat blood for the club many times in his career.

David Graves
57 Posted 09/11/2017 at 15:18:16
He's endured a couple of indifferent games this season but then he's been playing in a poor team. He may well give the ball away at times but he's still prepared to get forward and he's one player who will at least try to change the pace of the game.

He's only 19 but I'd still prefer him ahead of Schneiderlin, Besic, Klaassen and Gueye all of whom are vastly more experienced internationals!

Charlie Dixon
58 Posted 09/11/2017 at 16:13:25
Darren Hind (51) spot on! Really hit the nail on the head.
Brent Stephens
61 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:23:55
I wonder what our TW Moderators have to say about Marsh's posts: personally insulting to those who post contrary views; invariably negative; in sum, the characteristics of a WUM.
Stan Schofield
62 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:25:05
It must be incredibly difficult for a young player coming into the 1st team when the 1st team is struggling, and let's face it, the 1st team has been struggling for several years. Given the circumstances, Davies has done remarkably well. Indeed, all the youngsters who've come through have had to handle difficult conditions with team morale and tactics, and bad management.

Once the 1st team starts cooking on gas, and it will happen, these youngsters, especially Davies, will really show what they can do on a consistent basis. In a way, Dowell and others are a little fortunate to be gaining experience eksewhere, whilst the 1st team is in the current situation.

Let's just get behind these lads, they give their all.

Eric Paul
63 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:35:58
I don't agree with Tony Marsh's comments but I don't think he has been out of order. He's entitled to his opinion – just like the rest of us.
Tony Marsh
64 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:38:09
Brent, who have I insulted?

Don't know what you are on about mate... If you mean calling our fan base delusional and dreamers, I have included myself in that also?

As for this thread, please show me where I have made any personal reference towards any fellow contributor... If you can't, then please pipe down.

Brent Stephens
65 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:40:06
QED, Mr Marsh!
Mike Gaynes
66 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:40:23
Darren #51, outstanding post. Heartily agree.

Whoa, wait, did I just write that?

Mike Gaynes
67 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:43:37
Tony #64, I would say that "The likes of you hold this club back" is pretty damned insulting.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
68 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:47:28
Brent, I think we've always recognized that Tony Marsh has strong views and also has an abrasive way of expressing them.

Most of us who've been around a while are familiar with his MO and it does not change. He makes ridiculous predictions and never owns up when he's wrong. He "gives up" on a weekly basis, but it does not stop him coming back to dole out more of his own particular misery about the club he says he loves. I could go on and on characterizing his posting style... but to call him a WUM crosses a line, in my opinion.

Are you really a WUM if you actually believe what you are posting? Call me a fool, but I suspect, having read hundreds of posts from him, there is no way he's putting on an act to just wind people up. In fact, descending to that level, Brent, I find rather disappointing from you, to be honest. You do this, I believe, so you can more easily reject anything he says, and to my mind, that rather goes against the idea of open debate on these forums.

Forgive me for being cynical, but you cannot say that he is too far removed from at least a few other Evertonians you know, surely? Or are all of your mates sunny-side up types who "only look for the positives"?

As I've commented before, those of that persuasion will always have issues with those from the other end of the spectrum. Some books even say the two should be kept well apart as they will never agree, given their polarized positions. I say that's something you have to embrace on a forum like this, and not seek to shut down just because you don't like what he's saying, or the way that he says it.

Jim Jennings
69 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:48:11
John (#53),

"I get the impression that, when things are going reasonably, well you are conspicuous by your absence, and now that things are not so good, you have re-emerged."

A very astute observation.

Tony Marsh
70 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:50:51
Darren (# 51),

Time will tell about Davies. Gush all you want and embrace hard graft all you want but the Premier League is getting faster and physical presence and power are going to become even more of a commodity.

Look at the difference in players from say even just 10 years ago. All sports are now being based on more size, more power, more speed. Davies will not suddenly develop another 2 ft and a bit of Hussain Bolt pace, will he?

I hope the kid has something in the locker we have yet to see... I'm not so sure and not see easily sucked in to the hype like most.

Danny Cadamatteri, Micheal Branch, Micheal Ball, Jack Rodwell, James Vaughan etc etc etc... I've heard it all before, mate. Even believed in it myself.

It's a tough league to make an impact in when you are small and slow – that's all I am saying.

Andy Crooks
71 Posted 09/11/2017 at 17:54:36
I can recall a really positive post from Tony, just the one. I think he blagged a corporate frebbie and wrote about the club in glowing terms afterwards. I think, Tony, you owe me for the physio I had to have to have my toes uncurled after it.
Jay Harris
72 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:08:42
Let's bring the thread back to Tom instead of Marshy.

I believe one of the problems he has had this season is playing in a number of different positions due to the incorporation of Sigurdsson and Rooney in particular and occasionally Gana and Schneiderlin as the preferred defensive midfield partnership.

I think the different setups now have him confused but it's nothing a good manager can't sort out.

With the way Schneiderlin has performed and behaved, I think we'll see a Gana & Davies defensive midfield setup which IMO is his best position.

Tom will go on to have a great career – that's my opinion.

John Pierce
73 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:15:03
Most Premier League midfielders now of any worth are not Yaya Toure or Patrick Vieria.

They are more like Sterling, Silva, Coutinho, Wilshire, Ozil, Iwobi, Mata, Hazard, Erikson, Kante, Gana, Lanzini, Arter, Shelvy.... The list is endless. All players compare to Davies in that they play in and around midfield.

The speed of the game they play is for the most part in their head; their ability to take players out of the game and technical accuracy is used to forsake the physical advantages of others.

Sure your defensive midfielder might be a bigger fella but not always. They have high energy and good movement; their ability to keep a fast tempo is the key. Davies has all of those attributes and, like the team, he has suffered this season. He is less assured and gone is the one-touch wall he was when Barkley was in the team. Coincidence?

To criticise an emerging player with so much yet to give in the context of our season is, well, confounding. Pit him against many of our squad this season who are falling way below of the standards they are capable of in comparison. Laughable stuff, He has more assists than most of the team this season.

Pair him with Sigurdsson in front of Gana would be my preference. A very good player with a high ceiling.

John McFarlane
74 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:17:07
Hi Michael (68), now in my 80th year, I was dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming, can you tell me (if it doesn't offend public decency), what is a WUM?
Tony Marsh
75 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:17:51
Andy @ 71,

I have my own corporate tickets mate. Don't need to blag anything...

Were you not telling us how great Koeman was about 5 weeks ago? Shows you how much you are on the ball with your views.

Brian Williams
76 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:21:05
John (#74). It stands for "wind-up merchant".
Steve Ferns
77 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:23:06
I think Tom Davies is absolutely brilliant. The one game that makes me think he can become an Everton great is the Lyon game.

He was terrible in that game. He was hitting the ball out of play from simple passes, he was getting beat in tackles, and he was generally having a bad time of it.

Why did I rate him so badly on the back of a bad game? Well, my view of that game was we were clearly second-best. The players had their heads down and gave up after 1-0. All but Davies. He kept running. He kept getting on the ball. He kept demanding the ball. He kept trying to make passes and make things happen. We turned it around and got back to 1-1 and it was all down to Davies for me. He never hides, no matter what. He's not playing well, so he rolls his sleeves up and tries even harder to play well.

His passing can be sublime. He's got vision, he's got touch, he's got finesse. But remember guys, he is actually a defensive midfielder. He is a No 4, that's where he has always played. He is a good tackler, let's not forget him getting stuck into the massive Yaya Touré. He will tackle anyone.

But he is a kid. He gets dropped off to training by his mum, that's how young he is. Unlike the modern footballers, he's an intelligent lad with Grade A A-Levels. He is like no footballer before him, despite his 70s throwback looks.

Davies can get bigger and stronger, he's 19, so he will fill out. He will also get quicker. He hasn't finished growing. He will develop much more physically.

As for being too small, I despair. I assume anyone saying that is a proponent of Sam Allardyce? He's actually 180 cm tall, or 5'-11" in old money. Are you serious?

The greatest central midfielder of the last 50 years was just 168 cm tall. He ripped every side in the world apart at a time when every team was going for bigger and stronger and completely changed football for the last 10 / 15 years as a result, winning 8 league titles and 4 Champions League titles amongst other things.

The bottom line is Tom Davies can only get better.

John McFarlane
78 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:29:25
Hi Brian (#75), thank you for the information. I can now go to confession safe in the knowledge that the priest won't be overly offended if I call him a WUM when he talks of the better life that awaits me.
Brian Williams
79 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:30:00
Tom is undoubtedly capable of great things on a football field. That goal against Man City is a prefect example. He's also capable of naivety and giving the ball away. He's 19, it's gonna happen. He's also "probably" going to improve.

I partly agree with Tony in that the Premier League "in the main" is about power and pace. A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un as they say. But there are exceptions to that in the likes of Silva, Aguero and the like.

Tom's learning his trade, he'll do great things sometimes and he'll make mistakes sometimes.

Brian Williams
80 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:31:29
John (#78).

Don't you know yet, mate – you're already in hell!

Steve Ferns
81 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:32:06
Power and pace can always be beaten by skill and precision.
John McFarlane
82 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:34:39
Hi again, Brian. I meant 76 – I didn't have my specs on.
Christy Ring
83 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:34:44
When Davies plays in his proper position, attacking midfielder, with pace and power, he's immense. Would he make it in a top 4 team? If Chelsea had their way, they'd sign Tom & Ross in January. Enough said.
Steve Ferns
84 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:37:04
His proper position is as the jersey he has mostly worn shows: No 4, defensive midfielder, just in front of the back four, hitting passes to the flank, dictating the tempo and driving his team forward. He's a bit too young to do that in this side, but that's where he will be within another 4 years.

Don't mistake his skill and technique for him being a natural attacking player. He's at his best getting the ball deep and getting the team to attack.

John Keating
85 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:41:39
Right now, in this present squad, is Davies worth a start? Of course he is.

Look at the present alternatives in midfield: they are all slow, one-dimensional, predictable and totally out of form. Davies may well make wrong decisions, may well have an off-game... but then look at our so-called experienced internationals.

At least Davies will not hide. Right now, an out-of-form Davies is ten times better than an out-of-form Gueye, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson et al.

A few more young, if possible local, eager lads introduced slowly into the first team can only be beneficial both to themselves and the Club.

John McFarlane
86 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:42:31
Brian (80) just back from "Specsavers"... you've dashed my hopes – I thought I was in "Purgatory"

Is there no end to my suffering?

Tom Bowers
87 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:44:15
Tom has not progressed as well as I would have hoped but that could be due to the general malaise of the whole squad for the season to date. He, like Lookman and a few other skilled youngsters, needs the coaching and the guidance of older players to compliment their undoubted ability and we then will see this lad and the club rise up.

The whole team has been guilty of far too many passing and tackling errors which has made so many teams look like world beaters against Everton; when this happens in midfield, it has created much easier offence for opponents. Everton have looked wide open almost every time an opposing team attacks.

Brian Williams
88 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:45:13
John (#86).

Afraid not, mate. Remember "Once a Blue" etc, etc. .

Mike Gaynes
89 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:46:02
Agreed, Steve (#77).

The best player in the world right now is just 170 cm and 72 kg, and not exactly bulging with muscles.

Steve Ferns
90 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:48:30
Davies needs to play in the position occupied by Gueye, with a player like Schneiderlin was last season, alongside him. He can learn the discipline of the position he is destined to play, whilst playing the role he is best suited to now, hunting the ball, intercepting the ball, winning the ball. Unlike Gueye, if he does get it, he can immediately drive us forward and has the technique to put people through on goal.

He also did well in the false No 10 position against big sides, where his job is to stop the opposition deep playmaker from getting on the ball, smothering him, and making him be on the back foot.

Davies has lots to learn, and it's essential he has a decent coach to help him learn it.

Mike Berry
91 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:48:38
Rather have him playing against Palace than playing international football.
Steve Ferns
92 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:49:21
Glad someone knows which player I was referring to, Mike. ;)
Darren Hind
93 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:56:10
Tony @70,

I personally prefer people like you writing in the manner in which you talk. It's real. Those taking offence must go to the match or the ale house with cotton wool in their ears... but you are miles away about young Davies

There is a real difference between Tom Davies and the others you are comparing him with. He has "it" and by "it" I don't mean world class ability, I don't even mean top class ability. I mean he doesn't know how to quit, his head doesn't go down. He competes for everything, he fears nobody.

As I said earlier, he did have a poor game on Sunday, but with players like him, you always have a shout; when others are calling it a day, he wants more. Despite his poor showing on Sunday, I don't believe we could have won the game if he wasn't on the pitch.

Start counting them, lad. There'll be plenty more days when his spirit hauls this team of soft arses over the line. This is a little street fighter and he will grow to become a bigger street fighter.



Steve Ferns
94 Posted 09/11/2017 at 18:59:37
He ain't little, Darren. He's 5'-11", which is about average. And I agree with your street fighter assessment which is similar to what I was saying earlier.

To put this in perspective, Davies is 12 cm taller than the Premier League's best defensive midfielder, the double Premier League champion, and so called one-man midfield, N'Golo Kante. So can we accept his height is a non-issue?

Darren Hind
95 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:05:09
Steve, I know how tall he is mate, somebody already said, but he is slight and he will be a lot bigger and stronger in a couple of years time.
Phil Walling
96 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:06:36
I don't believe in Tony Marsh. Seems to me he is trotted out when these columns are getting a bit dry and need livening up.

John Mc @ 53 has a good memory, Marsh first appeared as a 'balance' to Richard Dodd whose love for David Moyes and ridiculous positivity about all things Everton so outraged posters that he allegedly lost his council job, having been reported to Sefton Council for wasting public money!

During one of Moyes's worst troughs, his one-eyed support of his hero even had search parties out looking to 'reason with him' at his beloved Freshy.

Oh, such lively times, I'm almost disappointed that Davey chose West Ham to relegate rather that us!

Dave Abrahams
97 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:10:55
Darren (#93), I think Tony Marsh was mainly having a go at Tom Davies because of his performance against Watford. I doubt very much it could be based on Tom's performances overall since he came into the side.

On Sunday, Tom had a poor game in my opinion for the simple reason he was trying to do too much. He was everywhere, fighting for his club and at times he was getting in people's way, trying to do their job as well as his own; he needed an experienced player to tell him to calm down. He got over-excited wanting to get Everton back in the game, and in the end he had a part in helping us to win; he should learn from this match.

As you say, Darren, he will become a player Evertonians will love having him play for our club and he will get to be a bigger and better player for the Blues. I also agree that Tony Marsh loves Everton and is a good Bluenose.

Steve Ferns
98 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:13:18
Tony is a knowledgeable guy on the city though. During the Kirkby Stadium arguments, we had a big row about whether people from Kirkby were actually from Liverpool!

Tony set them straight with a nice little history lesson about social displacement after the war, and I found out, from one of the things that he said that my own grandparents were actually part of the social displacement which is why we ended up in Huyton.

Mike Gaynes
99 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:15:25
Steve (#92), yep... and when you refer to Davies needing "a decent coach to help him learn it"... I know who you're talking about there too!
Mike Gaynes
100 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:16:41
Darren (#95), when I shook his hand last spring, I couldn't believe how slender his arm was. Mum needs to fill him up with a little more pasta before she drives him to practice!
Steve Ferns
101 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:16:42
Nice one, Mike!
Tony Marsh
102 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:18:16
Darren,

Like I said, time will tell. I have seen too many future world beaters fall by the wayside at Everton. I seriously hope Tom does make it.

He appears to have gone backwards this season... maybe it's Koeman? I don't know... but anyone who can't see this is fooling themselves.

Danny Broderick
103 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:20:14
Davies has suffered this season because he has been in and out of the team, and also because he has had nothing up front or out wide to pass to. Would any of his doubters have liked playing centre mid for us this season? It's no coincidence to me that all of our centre mids have suffered – there's no out ball for them.

Despite this, young Tom created a cracking assist for Niasse against Bournemouth, and he made another sublime pass to Lennon against Watford to win our decisive penalty.

This team should be built around him.

Darren Hind
104 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:32:11
Peaks and troughs, Tony. All youngsters suffer them.

Koeman has played this kid here, there and everywhere so as to avoid upsetting his tackling machines. That can't have helped his progress.

There seems to be a reluctance to give our mistake-ridden ducklings time to become Swans. Two years ago, John Stones was being absolutely fucking murdered on here. The philistines were blind to his potential. They highlighted every error, even when he was playing for England. (I guess he didn't boot it far enough for their liking.) They were over the moon when we traded him for Williams and still banked a fortune.

After hearing very favourable comments about Stones recently, I read that Pep adores him. I watched him give a near faultless performance against Arsenal, every time he touched it he turned defence into attack. He is well on the way to becoming a very fine swan indeed. The best in the world... and we are stuck with Ashley fucking Williams.

Andy Crooks
105 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:44:24
Tony (#75), fair enough. Could you give me a link to the posts where I said how great Koeman was? I don't recall saying it. I can, though, recall your evangelical advocacy for Unsworth which, I believe, dissolved after two games.

By the way, how many games will you give Allardyce? Also, how about giving a link to the last good thing you have ever had to say about our club?

It' s not hard to sit on the wings, bitching. I know that because I did it with Moyes and Martinez.

So, what do you suggest as the way forward? Sam Allardyce? Is that fucking it?

Tony Hill
106 Posted 09/11/2017 at 19:59:35
I agree with Tony Marsh that Tom has had a difficult season so far. There are all sorts of reasons for that probably but he does lack a half-yard of pace.

Will he blossom? Don't know and neither does anyone else.

He's got loads of guts, and a fine eye for a pass when in form, which will take him a long way but he'll need more than that of course.

We can only hope.

John McFarlane
107 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:01:48
Hi Steve (#90),

If you have been following recent threads, you will know that I am in my 80th year and have been attending Goodison since 1948. I appreciate that the game has seen many changes in that time, some for the better. but unfortunately some for the worse.

In your post, I'm afraid you touched a nerve when you referred to the false Number 10 position. I've heard on TV commentators praising a player with Number 22 on his shirt, as being the ideal Number 10. Brendan Rodgers, when he was at Liverpool, even had a false Number 9 in his team... why should we not go all the way and refer to all positions by their numbers? although I shouldn't fancy seeing Seamus in the number 2 position (if you get what I mean).

I come now to the player who shoots with his favourite left foot, when I played I sometimes had two left feet, but I can't say I had a favourite. Another one is "There's only one team going to win this game" do they think we don't know that?

If you give something away, isn't that classed as a gift? And if you sell something at a bargain price, aren't you letting it go cheaply? If so, how can a player give the ball away cheaply?

You may think that it's not something to get upset about but to a "dinosaur" who was brought up on full-backs, wing-halves, centre-halves, wingers, inside-forwards and centre-forwards, it gets a little confusing at times

To finish off my little rant, Old Timers like me will remember the W formation (you may have to ask your Dad or your Granddad about that). Meanwhile, I'll try to get my head around the Diamond and Christmas Tree systems.

Just trying to bring some light relief to a rather sombre period in our Club's history. The nurse will be around with the tablets in a few minutes.

Steve Ferns
108 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:11:44
John, have you ever read Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson? It's an excellent book on the history of tactics and formations and goes into a lot of detail about the WM formation. It's books like that that gave rise to positions being referred to by numbers.

For example, it's not enough to say 'defensive midfielder'. Is it a Lee Carsley, a Kante? a Pirlo? or a Xabi Alonso?

Lee Carsley played in front of the back four and an old-fashioned anchor. Kante hunts the ball, intercepts, tackles and closes down. Pirlo is a graceful passer of the ball launching attacks from deep. Xabi Alonso is a much more direct quarterback-style defensive midfielder.

All played the same position, in very different ways, so sometimes we need to refer to their numbers to explain it a bit better. Do read the book though. It's superb and will make you see similarities from your youth to now, that you hadn't thought of before.

John McFarlane
109 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:12:54
Hi Dave (#97),

Are we still on for the Atalanta game?

Dave Abrahams
110 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:18:59
John (#109), yes, I haven't got my ticket yet, doubt there will be a big rush for many to get to the game, but I will be going. We can make arrangements closer to the game. Tell Josh I said "Hello".
John Graham
111 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:32:14
Was a great find for the team at the end of last season. Got all of the skills but feel he has been missing a bit of guidance. At the moment I feel he is trying too hard and trying to do too much to cover the rest of the team.

He seem to have a bit like a headless chicken syndrome trying to get all over the field. Not sure what job he is being given by the managers (Koeman or Unsworth) but feel all of the good things are going from his game.

I feel he is a bit too tenacious at times now and that is taking the creativity from his play. He needs to get back to his A game and start threading those balls through to the attackers again.

Good luck, Tom.

John McFarlane
112 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:39:58
Hi again, Steve (#108).

It's not the numbers that baffle me, it's the false numbers, although that really shouldn't be the case, because I've seen my fair share of false dawns.

I must confess that, when I go to the match, I see 10 outfield players, pitting their wits against the opposition's 10, and I view the game as a sport and not as a science, which I feel many of today's supporters do, because of the television coverage, and the (so-called) experts' in-depth analyses.

I believe that any two contributors to ToffeeWeb could sit in a studio and tell the world what the players should have done, eg, they should have kept the ball out of one net, and put it in the other net. It may surprise you to know that I have never missed a tackle or spurned a goalscoring chance from my seat in the Park End.

Brent Stephens
114 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:45:03
Michael #68 - I've been out for a while so just come in to see your post (and haven't yet read anything below that). Thanks for the response. You say:

"Are you really a WUM if you actually believe what you are posting? Call me a fool, but I suspect, having read hundreds of posts from him, there is no way he's putting on an act to just wind people up. In fact, descending to that level, Brent, I find rather disappointing from you, to be honest. You do this, I believe, so you can more easily reject anything he says, and to my mind, that rather goes against the idea of open debate on these forums".

First, I was open enough to post on open forum rather than just "Flag the comment" in private, as it were.

Second, it's not Tony's substantive views I find objectionable, and my post wasn't so I could "more easily reject anything he says" - I don't see how it possibly could.

My objection is to his sheer level and frequency of ad hominem attacks on other posters. I think that demeans ToffeeWeb.

Tony Marsh
115 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:46:14
Andy Crooks, I don't want Allardyce – never did. he isn't coming so what's the use in mentioning him?

The club and the team have been poor for a long time, mainly due to Kenwright. If I'm honest, I am still fuming over the King's Dock and will never forgive Boys Pen Bill for that.

David Moyes, I believe, is (with the blessing of Bill Kenwright) a major factor in the way the mindset and persona of the club and its fans became so dumbed down. It's as if we have all been brainwashed into accepting mediocrity. Something I refuse to do. Moyes, in 11 years, never won an away game at any of the then big 4. I hated him being our manager.

I've seen the best and worst of Everton and I was on to Koeman last season, even when we were winning games at home. It was obvious Lukaku was all we had. We couldn't win away from home. The football was awful.

Our fans wouldn't have it – called me a moaner etc. I was right about Moyes and I was right about Koeman. He let Romelu leave without a fight. I hated Koeman being our boss.

When I feel things are looking good and we the fans stop eating up the crap we are served up both on and off the field, I will let you know, mate.

Tony Abrahams
116 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:52:07
Mike, who do you reckon Steve thinks is the best centre midfield player of the last 50 years? I reckon he meant Xavi, and I would have to disagree with the both of you over that mate!

Anyway enough about Tom Davies, I reckon this other kid Benni, is going to be just as good, so imagine Ross Barkley, stayed at Everton, and became the player we all hope he can be.

Another holy trinity? I’m only messin Tony M, don’t take me seriously mate!

Steve Ferns
117 Posted 09/11/2017 at 20:53:31
Davies playing as a false 10 simply means he's a defensive player playing in an attacking position. That is, instead of being part of the attack, the primary reason he is there is to be a part of the defence, but high up the pitch.

So if playing a team with a Pirlo, you put a defensive player on him to nullify him. Stop Pirlo from hitting his passes and his team has 10 men. The difference being that our guy, particularly Davies, does have skills on the ball and so can actually be positive as well as destructive.

As for the false 9, it's never been better explained than here

Steve Ferns
118 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:03:16
Of course Tony, little Xavier Herndandez. Who would you say is a better midfielder than him? It can't be one of his contemporaries surely? MY guess is you'll go for Cruyff (more of a forward though?), Platini, or our own Alan Ball?

There's a video on Xavi where he's talking about his influences and raving about Matt Le Tissier. Xavi loved watching the premier league and obviously enjoyed clips of Le Tiss doing outrageous stuff.

Peter Anthony
119 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:06:48
Tony (@115), I can't disagree with any of that. There have certainly been plenty of missed opportunities and mistakes in the management of both the team and the club over recent years.

NSNO even led to the bloody UK Prime Minister taking the piss out of us.

Can the future live up to our motto? Is Moshiri going to facilitate the delivery of a fantastic new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock within 3 years?

On the field, please lord, let Unsworth be the man to lead us to glory again. We need re-energising on and off the field. Moshiri – please don't be another false dawn.

David Currie
120 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:09:41
Darren (#93 & #104) – great posts.

Tony (#13), Tom will get better as he has the drive and desire to get better and the talent. Little David Silva is way better than big Pogba and has been sensational for Man City in the Premier League for years. What a midfielder he is.

Andy Crooks
121 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:16:22
Tony Marsh (#115), I was convinced, utterly convinced, that you advocated big Sam as our new manager. I was fucking determined to prove you wrong. Well, I can't. So all I can do is apologize.
Tony Abrahams
122 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:18:42
I've told you before, Steve, I always thought his partner Inniesta was the better player, he's my favourite anyway.
Will Mabon
123 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:19:50
Steve, Le Tissier is one of my favourite players. Half a stone less weight, 10% more fitness and 20 years later in the right team, I can't imagine what he'd be. I've heard he was highly admired by Messi, too.
Justin Doone
124 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:25:34
Mancini please asap. Winner winner Tom Davies needs a bigger dinner. I'll repeat, the best all round midfielder we have been fortunate enough to have on our books.

Don't get me wrong, like all U21s keeping their attitude and effort up is just as important as improving their weaker attributes to be a top, consistent professional in any walk of life. Good fortune with injuries and coaches who believe in you are also required.

I believe the hunger and desire are not in question (same for Calvert-Lewin and Kenny). I hope they also get some luck.

Steve Ferns
125 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:33:51
Inniesta or Xavi, it's impossible really to decide between them. They go together like Fish and Chips.

I put Xavi forwards simply because he came first. He played in the era where the giants ruled and he was the one who changed it before Iniesta came along and they made each other into better players.

Xavi spent his career being told he was too small, too sleight, too slow. He was told he couldn't play as a defensive midfielder as he wasn't a hard man. He proved them all wrong. Iniesta just played on the left wing before Guardiola changed everything and brought him inside.

John Charles
126 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:34:21
Re-writing history much Tony “I would beg Sam Allardyce” Marsh?
John Charles
127 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:43:02
Having said that, I agree with Tony that young Tom has neither the stature and physical presence of a Pogba nor the skill and imagination of a Silva nor the engine of a Kante.

I am sure he will have a good solid career, but more than that, I am not convinced.

George Cumiskey
129 Posted 09/11/2017 at 21:55:02
Tony @115,

I agree with everything you said, but stop beating about the bush and just say what you think... ha ha.

Peter Mills
130 Posted 09/11/2017 at 22:16:59
John (#107), they just present mystique to it now, so they can spend hours analysing and arguing.

Our 1966 team was probably perceived as some kind of inverted W formation. 5 players defending (Wright, Gabriel, Labone, Harris, Wilson) : 2 in ‘midfield' (Scott, Harvey) : 3 in ‘attack' (Young, Pickering, Temple). 5-2-3
But Gabriel could suddenly appear at centre-forward. The full-backs could attack. Scott would move to his preferred right-wing spot. Young would drop deep. Temple would play left-wing or alongside the No 9. It was mobile.

Our 1970 team is renowned for its Holy Trinity midfield. For me it was always 4-4-2, Johnny Morrissey is the forgotten hero of that team, always dropping back to add some muscle, then moving forward to intimidate the opposing fullback with skill and studs.

It was fluid, but also needed discipline. Players like Morrissey, Gabriel and Kendall epitomised those qualities. The best players now do the same, Scholes was magnificent, Beckham worked his socks off, Aguerro and Silva are wonderful. You can play any system you want, but if you have players with talent and a great attitude they can usually fit in. Tom Davies has got those attributes.

Peter Gorman
131 Posted 09/11/2017 at 22:22:15
Tom is having a tough time and has been pretty poor lately if I'm being honest. Not that the senior pros have done anything to help, goes without saying.

He could do with a break in the ressies to get his mojo back but to think he will NEVER make the grade? Can't see how anyone could come to that conclusion ever.

On the contrary, he is one player for whom the sky is the limit.

Steve Ferns
132 Posted 09/11/2017 at 22:32:57
John Charles, you will be very, very surprised when you watch the Palace Game and see the distance covered stats. They only show them on Sky after the game, they're not on the website except for some irregular analysis each game, but Davies has often topped our distance covered charts. So he does have one hell of an engine in order to outperform Gueye, who can outperform Kante.
Tom Bowers
133 Posted 09/11/2017 at 23:02:19
John McFarlane (#107), Love your post and agree with it.

We are in the same age frame and have seen it all. A lot has changed and not for the better for many reasons but, of course, the main one is money and worldwide TV coverage.

We still follow our club the same way we did when we went in the Boys Pen even though the standards have fallen and the results are poor. The in-depth analysis and the American style reporting of the most useless of stats is boring.

Who cares if one team has had 65% possession in the last 10 minutes. It's meaningless and counts for nothing – especially if it's in your own half.

Players are now obsessed in keeping possession at all costs because that's the way they are coached and it doesn't matter if you only have one shot on goal as long as you don't lose.

The play acting is still rife and referees still cannot spot the subtle fouls being committed, especially in the box.

Like everything else in life, we have to adopt to the changes or just not watch at all... but, being die-hard fans, we do – no matter what. COYB.

Andrew James
134 Posted 09/11/2017 at 23:06:21
Tom is, I believe, 5 foot 9 or 10. Which more or less is the type of height most players in his position are.

He doesn't have electric pace but he can work on that. He does have quick feet and a quick mind. He looks to go forward. Industrious and when he sets of on a run, it's always very exciting.

He will fill out a little more, he might even grow an inch.

My opinion is that should we retain the services of a certain other Evertonian in the ranks who is taller and can knock people off the ball, Tom will be a delightful foil.

Steve Ferns
135 Posted 09/11/2017 at 23:07:22
He's 180 cm, Andrew, or 5'-11" in old money.
Brent Stephens
136 Posted 09/11/2017 at 23:12:26
Great to see so much support for Tom from the blue-specs brigade on here. For a young lad with so few games under his belt, he's shown so much potential. I'm confident that potential will be realised.
John McFarlane
137 Posted 09/11/2017 at 23:49:19
Hi Peter (#130), you are absolutely right in your assessment of the media hype, they need to justify the appointment of the so-called experts, and what they do for thousands of pounds, you and I (and countless others) did for nothing over a bottle of Guinness in the pub.

I appreciate that we look back (in our case) through "Royal Blue" as opposed to rose tinted glasses, but I feel that television has created more bar room pundits, and that the game itself has been transformed from sport to science.

I am just glad that I was privileged to watch the beautiful game as it was known, when good solid tackling did not result merit a charge of grievous bodily harm, and players who suffered injury (pre substitute days) played on the wing as nuisance value.

No rolling around feigning injury in those far off days, and no sustaining an injury during a warm up, in fact no such thing as a warm up, just a few minutes kicking in before the game started.

The players you mentioned in the 1966 and 1970 sides were a joy to watch. I take my 13-year-old Grandson to the match, having bought him his first season ticket when he was 6. I hope that he can be telling his grandchildren similar tales, but I'm afraid I won't be around to hear him.

John McFarlane
138 Posted 09/11/2017 at 00:26:13
Hi Tom (#133), I'm pleased to hear that you enjoyed my post, I tried to introduce an element of humour into what was essentially a serious subject, although my reference to not wishing to see Seamus in a number two position seemed to pass Steve by... mind you, it was a shit joke anyway.

You are right in your view of stats meaning (in some cases) absolutely nothing. I can think of one glaring example: Two seasons ago, Everton travelled up to Sunderland, allegedly enjoyed 72% possession, and lost 3-0.

As you observed, possession in your own half counts for nothing. You may recall (I think it was in the Hotspur comic) a story about a footballer named Nick Smith, "It's goals that count". Just as true now as it was then.

I believe there is a system whereby dogs have chips inserted, thus allowing their owners to locate them should they stray. I think I have a similar chip that dictates, should Everton have a home game, I am compelled to attend. I suspect that you may be cursed in the same manner... the best of luck anyway.

It's 00:17 now so I'll retire to my bed to dream of Ted Sagar, Nobby Fielding, Alex Young, and Roy Vernon, or God forbid, the nightmare that Ronald Koeman has left us with. I hope we can keep in touch via ToffeeWeb, Goodnight.

Mike Gaynes
139 Posted 10/11/2017 at 00:43:58
Will #123 and Steve, me too. Le Tissier was my favorite non-Blue of all time. I loved watching him, with the big nose and the crooked grin and that magic right foot. He was especially my idol on pens, because he never missed. (I took the pens for my teams, and didn't miss for 14 years at one point.)

Plus he had the best title ever for a footy autobiography, Taking Le Tiss.

Michael Kenrick
140 Posted 10/11/2017 at 05:46:11
Brent,

I don't like Tony's style... but ad hominem attacks by him on other posters? I can't really see anything that meets that specific standard.

Give me some examples of what you mean . Preferably offline in case we incur Lyndon's wrath.

If you'd said he relies far too much on appeals to emotion (the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence), I'd happily agree... but it's hardly a crime, is it?

"Instead of facts, persuasive language is used to develop the foundation of an appeal to emotion-based argument. Thus, the validity of the premises that establish such an argument does not prove to be verifiable."

A perfect description of Tony's approach to stuff on here! But sorry, I don't think he is setting out to cause as much disruption as possible by goading you or anyone else. However, you appear to react as if that is how you are processing what he posts.

Brent Stephens
141 Posted 10/11/2017 at 08:41:46
Offline, Michael, as requested.
Darren Hind
142 Posted 10/11/2017 at 08:43:03
I think this waving of imaginary red and yellow cards to the moderators is embarrassing – not to mention Hypocritical.

Brent Stephens

I guess you have taken a look at the number of responses Tony Marsh gets in comparison to the number you get and you are jealous. It's a familiar pattern with you.

The reason he gets lots of responses is because he actually has something to say. It may be insightful, it may be controversial, it may even be shite (see above) – but he always has something to say about our club. You seem to spend your time seeking attention by telling ancient jokes that were about as funny as mid-flight engine failure first time around. Asking people what they are having for their tea... or complaining what other people have said.

You do see the difference?

Your high moral standards and attempts to deodorise debate would carry far more credence if you hadn't come on a recent match day thread to tell a "fellow blue" to "STFU" (shut the fuck up).

If you think somebody is wrong, counter their point with solid argument. It's far more effective than shouting for Miss every time somebody in the playground upsets you.

Charlie Dixon
143 Posted 10/11/2017 at 10:24:18
Tony, who would be your preference for the manager job? It's very easy to write endless negative drivel without really putting your neck on the line.

Also, what's your preferred midfield if Davies isn't part of it?

Dermot Byrne
144 Posted 10/11/2017 at 10:58:41
Micheal K interesting comment on the "Tony Marsh phenomenon". Now we know editorial position, people who dislike TM's manner can just stop commenting on it. Then his view is just about as significant as the rest.

But... the danger of that is TW becomes "beige" and like so much of internet, just a place to back up your own views.

Totally agree with editorial stance but, if you think the manner (not beliefs) of the likes of Darren Hind and Tony Marsh is just how they are as people and in no way contrived, then that is naivety at a new level!

Tony Marsh
145 Posted 10/11/2017 at 11:06:45
Charlie I don't get involved in such trivialities. Picking starting 11s etc. Who I want as next manager is irrelevant as we have to stay within the boundaries of reality. Most of our fans I listen to, including my own pals, are so out of touch, it amazes me. Some of the names being called out are ludicrous.

Tell you what, Charlie – let's throw a cheeky bid in to Man City and try to get Pep Guardiola here. Better still, let's offer Rooney back to Man Utd and ask for Jose to come down the East Lancashire Road... There is no list of who I want as next manager – more like a list of who might accept the job.

Were does this dreamy romantic nonsense end? We are not a big catch or a big club. We still sell our best players every season. So calling for elite managers is as futile as it is idiotic.

As for Tom Davies, I don't have a problem with the lad. At this moment in time, the whole squad is unbalanced so I don't really know what we can do. Sigurdsson is not what we thought – and don't get me started on Gueye and Schneiderlin.

What I said about Davies is that I personally don't think he will become this superstar some of our supporters think he will become, due to his lack of pace and lack of physical presence. To me, he looks lost. Apart from the goal v Man City last season, I haven't seen enough from Davies to warrant his elevation to God-like status amongst Evertonians.

Hope this answers your question, Charles?

Dermot Byrne
146 Posted 10/11/2017 at 11:17:29
A brilliant sidestep, Tony. Who would your realistic choice be?
Eric Paul
147 Posted 10/11/2017 at 11:52:56
Tony, are you a politician?
Tony Marsh
148 Posted 10/11/2017 at 12:30:15
Eric Paul, no mate, I am not a politician. I deal in reality. In the here and now. Fantasy Football has never interested me and I don't intend to start indulging in it with EFC. I don't have a problem with other supporters having a go but I refrain.

John Charles
149 Posted 10/11/2017 at 12:56:51
Steve, thanks, not really a stat looker (though maybe I should be). Watching Tom from the Park End against Watford, he did run a lot but to very little effect that is saw.

But I take the point maybe he has a better engine than I thought.

Charlie Dixon
150 Posted 10/11/2017 at 14:18:39
Thanks, Tony. Didn't really answer my question.

I've never thought of Sean Dyche as "dreamy romantic nonsense" nor have I ever referred to Davies as "godlike".

I think you're way too quick to criticise when you cannot even answer a simple question like who you would like in as our next manager.

Tony Marsh
151 Posted 10/11/2017 at 17:45:22
Charlie, I would like Zinadine Zidane as our next manager; hopefully he brings some of Madrid in used squad players with him.

Hows that? Not going to happen but hey ho let's all join in the fun and games then.

Andy Crooks
154 Posted 10/11/2017 at 21:01:07
Tony, no fun and games. You don't want Unsworth. No fantasy football, here. Who do you think we could get? Apparently you would " beg Sam Allardyce", So you actually DO have an opinion. Not that long ago, three weeks or thereabouts, you wanted Unsworth.

Tony, reread your own posts. Have you ever in fifteen years said "I was wrong"? Provide a link to it if you have. You haven't got it in you. It is sad to see your nonsense defended on here by some who should know better.

Barry Pearce
155 Posted 11/11/2017 at 09:57:19
Pete (#131). Spot on.

Can't wait for Kieran Dowell to come back into the fold next season. I think he's the most talented player at the club.

Tony Marsh
156 Posted 11/11/2017 at 13:45:16
Andy Crooks, if you are still on thread... Do you not understand sarcasm, gallows humour, Scouse wit, etc. Do you honestly believe I want Allardyce here? Can you not comprehend when someone is taking the piss?

After we lost 3-0 to Lyon, when I said we should beg Sam Allardyce to come here, it was more a dig at the current regime and dread state of affairs rather than a genuine request for Big Sam. Jeezus, mate, come on... you can't be that naive.

Darren Hind
157 Posted 11/11/2017 at 14:28:53
Nice try Tony.

Andy only lives in Belfast, so he'll have little trouble understanding Scouse wit and absolutely no trouble at all understanding gallows humour.

You were championing Allardyce alright, only now you have come to your senses.

Was it before or after the Lyon game when you calling for "Fireman Sam to come and put the fire out" ?.

Stop digging.

Tony Abrahams
158 Posted 11/11/2017 at 14:41:08
He also said Lukaku’s movement used to create chances for the other players, which I thought was very witty!

Someone just told me it’s Unsworth and Stubbs, but I don’t know how true this is?

David Nicholls
159 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:02:53
Davies too small? I always think he looks a bit of a brute for a teenager. When I was his age I had to use tape to keep my socks up.
David Barks
160 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:10:20
The too small thing is ridiculous. Coutinho, De Bruyne, David Silva, Hazard, Ramsey, Sterling, Mata, Fabregas. The list is endless of midfielders in the Premier League not needing to be giants. Davies is just under 6 ft tall. Cahill was shorter.

Davies is one inch shorter than Gerrard and Lampard were. His passing, positioning and decision making need to improve. None of which has anything to do with pace or being one inch under six foot tall.

Steve Ferns
161 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:34:13
Dixie Dean was an absolute giant of a player in the 1920s, towering above most. Tim Cahill was nicknamed Tiny Tim, because he was so "small". Both were the same height, 178cm or 5'10". Whilst some liked to call Tim tiny, none would do it to his face. He was a fighter on the pitch and could never be accused of not being tall enough or strong enough to play. Pele was only 173cm or 5'8", but in 1970 he had bulked up and belied his height to be dominant in the air by clever running and often heading home unmarked.

Tom Davies is bigger than them all. With 4 years of growing left to beat 6'0" and a lot longer to put on muscle mass. I think he looks quite broad in the shoulders and I expect that he will fill out and become a strong player. Also, watch the Lyon "fighting" again. See it's Tom Davies straight in there to break things up. The lad ain't scared of anyone. watch this vid to see how he three times gets involved, and in a peace-keeping capacity, but putting himself in the line to get whacked, whilst leaving himself defenceless by pushing people away.

I've never been so sure of a future captain by watching a teenager play before.

David Barks
162 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:45:18
It’s funny that Davies is said to be too small. But we all saw how that extra muscle weight hurt Barkley’s speed and agility. He’s a footballer, he’s not short, he’s young and he will continue to build muscle.
Alan McGuffog
163 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:47:41
Would have thought that Tim was called Tiny for the same reason all Tim's are called Tiny. Like anyone called White gets called Chalky ?
Steve Ferns
164 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:51:04
Maybe Alan, but he was referred to as small to perhaps draw more attention to his leap, which was formidable. I wonder if anyone ever measured it and how it compares against others? Surely one of the greatest leaps in football?
Steve Ferns
165 Posted 11/11/2017 at 16:52:21
Davies is 6cm and 4kg heavier than Idrissa "Gana" Gueye, for what it's worth.
Tony Marsh
166 Posted 11/11/2017 at 17:01:06
Darren @ 157
Yes that's true but that's just shows you the shit we are in.Do you honestly think Any of us want Allardyce FFS what's up with you all? It's s needs must situation we are in.No decent coach/ manager will touch us the position we are in so it was a choice between Dyche, Unsworth Deadly Dave or Fat Sam on short term basis I am going Fat Sam every time.

Suppose you think Anchelotti or Conte or Tuchel or any amount of pathetic shouts are going to come in on a white charger and rescue us..Ha Ha come on Lad were did you grow up.

In an ideal world Allardyce or Dyche or Deadly Dave wouldn't be given a thought.
Thing is we Evertonians and the club are far from being in an ideal world. It's a bit like asking a vegaterian if they had to eat meat would the prefer Lamb or Chicken when the answer would be niether of them.

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