Dowell penalty helps Forest conquer Arsenal

Sunday 7 January 2018  83 Comments  [Jump to last]
Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images
Kieran Dowell scored a controversial penalty to set the seal on Nottingham Forest's FA Cup Third Round victory over Arsenal this afternoon.

Having served up the opener with an inswinging free kick, the on-loan Everton winger was involved in Forest's first penalty, scored a few minutes earlier when Rob Holding tried to clear his back-heel in the box but tripped Danny Cash instead.

18-year-old striker Ben Brereton converted that penalty to make it 3-1 but after Danny Welbeck scored to make it 3-2, the Gunners had hope going into the final stages.

However, when Armand Traore was felled by Matieu Debuchy, Dowell was handed responsibility for the second penalty and scored despite slipping as he struck the ball.

Referee Jon Moss consulted with his assistant over calls from Arsenal players that Dowell had made contact with the ball twice — television replays showed that the kick should indeed have been re-taken — but the goal stood and Forest progressed to the Fourth Round.  


Reader Comments (83)

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Paul Strudwick
1 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:03:14
I just sat down to watch Dowell play against Arsenal with Forest and noticed Vellios has turned up on their bench.
Michael Lynch
2 Posted 07/01/2018 at 16:24:44
Goal for Forest made by a great free kick from Dowell. Let's hope he's doing it for us next season.
Kevin Prytherch
3 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:47:22
Anyone watching the forest game?

How’s Dowell doing against Arsenal?

I’ve read text commentary and seen he’s got an assist.

Mike Gaynes
4 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:49:47
Amazing. Dowell chosen to take a pen for Forest. Makes hash of it because his planted foot slips... double hit goes into the top of the net... ref Moss doesn't call the double hit... and Arsenal are down 4-2 and headed out of the Cup.

Two great goals by USA international full-back, Eric Lichaj, a Sunday league player who normally can't tie his own laces.

Mike Gaynes
5 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:53:29
Kevin, he's got a goal and an assist... and he's been very poor in my eyes. Only good moment has been a free kick delivery for Lichaj's first goal.

Other than that, no real impact on the game by Dowell until he just hacked a pen off his own boot and into the top of the net. Double hit missed by the ref.

So if you read the text, you think Dowell's had a great game. Not so.

Brian Williams
6 Posted 07/01/2018 at 17:55:26
Just shows how opinions can differ. I think Dowell has played well. Ghosted past the Arsenal centre-backs and cut a ball back into the box, just one of his pieces of skill.

Slipped on the penalty but still scored after one touch IMO.

He'll be a good player for us next season, I reckon.

Shows that at least some Everton players have bottle. :-)

Mike Gaynes
8 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:01:38
Brian, sorry but that was a clear double hit if you watch the slo-mo replay. Moss just missed it.

Obviously Dowell's having a fine season, because this was his ninth goal and sixth assist, but I saw multiple unforced giveaways and no assertiveness at all in his performance today. No doubt he has skill. But he did not step up today.

Very impressive from the teenager Brereton, who gave Mertesacker mares. Young player worth pursuing IMO.

Brian Williams
9 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:03:37
Mike. Sorry but I disagree on the double hit after watching several replays. But we're allowed different opinions aren't we? It's what makes the game so interesting.
Steve Ferns
10 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:05:07
Has anyone seen Dowell on a consistent basis? I have read the reports, and they are glowing when he scores or does something special, but it seems that he has magic moments in the games and does little beyond that. He is not running games, he is rarely the decisive factor.

I have not seen him on a consistent basis and so can only go off reports. Please, someone say they have seen him and my reading of the situation is wrong.

Ajay Gopal
11 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:06:24
Great experience for Kieran Dowell, will be come back to Everton and fulfil his potential, something that Barkley didn't quite do?
John Pierce
12 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:07:43
Blatant two touch. Clear from real time, the ball’s flight gives it away. Moss not looking at the contact point, more concerned with other stuff.

Got no time for Wenger’s bleating.

Dowell was Dowell, skillful to a point but like a ghost, no physical presence but just floats around. No progress on the games he’s had in a blue shirt.

Jacques Sandtonian
13 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:08:04
Ross who?
Peter Laing
14 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:08:59
Dowell has been a revelation at Forest this season and will hopefully come back stronger and well prepared to be fast tracked into the team for next season.

I'd rather we also give Vlasic and Lookman a good run for the remainder of the season and forget signing the likes of Walcott who appears to be another has-been.

There has been a lot of angst and the wringing of hands following another derby defeat. There are definitely reasons to be optimistic and the likes of Kenny and Dowell can offer us blues some hope.

Geoff Lambert
15 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:11:36
I thought Dowell was quite good in a bang average side.

The penalty was a goal, end of.

Peter Anthony
16 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:12:13
Kieran Dowell certainly has great artistry and a pure wand of a left peg. I would certainly love to see him grace Goodison Park and Bramley-Moore Stadium, evoking memories of the great Kevin Sheedy.

But I am a dreamer, and through experience have learnt to expect to see an announcement of him being sold to a lower league team for a nominal fee. I hope I am wrong, but if that does happen, we have a guaranteed buy back clause. I believe he really is a special talent.

Mike Gaynes
17 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:12:22
Well, Brian, you also disagree with both game commentators and the Fox studio crew, who were unequivocal... as well as the ball, which was spinning like a top when it hit the net.

But I love it anyway. Happy to see the young man chalk one up. And watching the Arse walk off humiliated is going to keep me grinning all day.

Liam Reilly
18 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:19:25
Not this kid Peter; he must not be sold.

They love him at Forest; he's got a magic left foot and has a great career ahead of him.

The club should be tying him down to a long-term contract as soon as he's back from loan.

Brian Williams
19 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:20:05
Robbie Savage on BBC says one hit, see, opinions.

You say tomayto I say tomarto.

That's me done :-)

John Pierce
20 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:20:30
Mike, the ball never lies. 🤣
Mike Gaynes
21 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:21:48
Brian, potahto it is!
Mike Gaynes
22 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:22:57
And I hope your view of Dowell's Everton future is more correct than mine.
David Pearl
23 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:27:50
He does have a bit of Sheedy about him. Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Stones... we should have kept them all and added more quality to the team. Instead we've sold them all, ripped up the team sheet and have to start again.

I'm hoping Calvert-Lewin can have a rest now. And that Lookman gets more game time. For all his minutes, he'd of also benefited more by a loan. The much maligned Williams and Schneiderlin seem to have picked up a bit. Allardyce looks to be trying to play better football now he has organised the defence a bit.

So fingers crossed going forward as we have a lot of good young players that need to be brought along in the right manager.

I'd actually take Walcott. Something to prove (and he is better than what we have).

Jim Bennings
24 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:34:43
To be honest, it should have been young Tom Davies out on loan this season and bring Dowell back.
Barry Pearce
25 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:36:27
Kieran Dowell, just oozes class. He has great vision, great left foot. Fantastic prospect. He can't possibly be sold.
Brian Williams
26 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:41:10
Hey Mike. The Mirror agrees with you.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/cant-wait-var-arsenal-fans-11813459

Having said that that rag has already decided Firmino is innocent and Holgate was mistaken!!

Who knows, or even cares lol!

Jack Convery
27 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:47:46
Walcott? Never – not a has-been... a never-was. We have four wingers already – it's at centre-back and left-back we need more players. A 2nd forward wouldn't go amiss either.

Great to see Kieran Dowell getting a decent run at Forest and taking full advantage of it.

Peter Anthony
28 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:48:12
You could say we were unlucky Rooney left, you could say we are unlucky that Barkley left. Let's hope it is third time lucky and we hit the jackpot with Kieran Dowell staying and fulfilling his potential with us.
Les Martin
29 Posted 07/01/2018 at 18:58:42
Very pleased for the lad, he looks like he is really enjoying his football.
Also I am over the moon for Arsene Whinger, could'nt happen to a more ungracious moaner, he looks like a heart attack waiting to happen and should retire or get out of the game for his own health.
Ian Bennett
31 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:06:32
The clutch of players coming through is a real bonus for any long term manager.

Davies, Holgate, Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, Kenny, Pickford, Dowell, Vlasic all have good careers ahead of them plus maybe one or two others.

Steve Carse
32 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:34:18
True Ian (#13), just a shame that the best of them all has just been allowed to leave – I'm talking Liam Walsh of course, not Ross Barkley.
Mike Gaynes
33 Posted 07/01/2018 at 19:58:53
Sorry I can't join the full-throated chorus on Dowell, but today – in probably the biggest game of his life – he was frequently a bystander, as he was so often in the U20 WC. The free kick to Lichaj for the first goal was superb, and he had some excellent touches, but also some head-slapping giveaways in midfield, and he tended to drift as less-talented teammates asserted themselves more.

I expected to see him conducting the orchestra from his #10 position behind the gifted young striker Brereton, but he spend much of the game floating anonymously. I had almost forgotten he was on the pitch by the time he took the ball for the pen. David (#6), sorry, but none of those players wanted to be here. Lukaku was never going to stay no matter what we paid him. Stones brought us what was the highest price for a defender in footy history until Van Dijk and nobody can convince me that wasn't a good piece of business. Deulofeu has utterly flopped at Barca, playing his way from a starting job to the bench to the stands in just nine appearances, and now has apparently played his way off the club forever as they try to sell him to Roma for €20m instead of loaning him to Inter.

I do agree with you that Lookman rates more playing time, but I've been singing that song for a year and a half and three managers have ignored me so far. Ah, well.


Charlie Lloyd
34 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:17:31
Made up for Dowell and the loan is doing him wonders. Playing at a decent level every week.

I have seen quite a lot of him at U23 level and for England and the talent was never I doubt but games seem to pass him by a bit. The step up to the first team is huge and so the decision to loan him out was not popular but for his development was probably the best.

I'm looking forward to his return next season when I hope he can kick on and cement a place in the match day squad.

Dave Pritchard
35 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:45:09
I agree with Mike @ 15 about Dowell, including the hope that me and him are wrong and the rest of you are right.

Looking back at the youngsters who were allowed to leave for no or nominal fees I am struggling to think of any who have gone on to have top class careers. Most are plying their trade in the lower leagues.

Happy to hear of ones I've forgotten about – maybe Eric Dier although I was never quite sure what was going on with him when here.

Dave Abrahams
36 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:46:46
I haven't seen Kieran play for Forest, just some of his goals.

What I have seen of him and stated quite a few times on here, he drifts continually out of the game, doesn't go looking for the ball, doesn't fight for the ball, but when he gets it he makes you sit up and take notice. Loads of skill, great passer of a ball, excellent at dead ball situations, maybe Forest have improved his all round game; I hope so.

If not, I can see Kieran dividing opinion a bit like, erm, what's that fella's name, who has just been transferred to Chelsea. I could be hopelessly wrong, I hope so.

Colin Glassar
37 Posted 07/01/2018 at 20:57:42
Young players make mistakes. Young players tend to be inconsistent. Young players need TLC to develop etc... unless you're a prodigy eg Pele, Maradonna, Messi etc... even Ronaldo was iffy at Man Utd to start with.

In today's world of instant gratification, and zero patience, how the fuck are these kids ever going to develop? A few years ago, they wouldn't be anywhere near the first team until they were in their early to mid-20's. Now, some of you want them to be world beaters before they are legally allowed to drink!

Andy Meighan
38 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:20:39
Every time I see Forest, albeit on the highlights shows, Dowell always seems to be involved in all of their play. Of course it's been well documented on here about the goals and the impact he's had for Forest. But – and it is a big but – I don't know if anyone else has noticed this... he somehow reminds of Bilyaletdinov.

I don't know why I think this. It might be the languid stride or the lack of that extra half-yard of pace that makes me think... "Mmmmm, has he got what it takes to make that step up?"

He's certainly got the attributes: good height, good weight, great balance, obviously a fantastic left foot. But there's something that just doesn't tick all the boxes for me. I just don't know what it is.

Now don't forget, I've only seen him play live 2 or 3 times and on the highlights shows so I'm sure someone can enlighten me.

I will say this though: He 'll never be another Sheeds... No-one will. Now that was a magic wand of a left foot... Unbelievable!

Jay Harris
39 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:50:25
Have to agree with Mike that Dowell was rarely in the game today but when he was you could see the quickness of thinking and the accurate passing ability.

Those two traits plus his scoring ability will see him surpass Barkley in due course.

Mike Gaynes
40 Posted 07/01/2018 at 21:50:46
Didn't say anything about world-beaters, Colin. You just want a youngster to do something to really catch your eye in a big game. I saw that today from Brereton (wow!), Cash and Walker for Forest and Iwobi for Arsenal.

Dowell I wouldn't have noticed unless I'd been watching for him. At least until the pen.

John Pierce
41 Posted 07/01/2018 at 22:07:45
I watched the game; whilst Forest were excellent, Dowell looked no further on from his performances in a blue shirt.

Still silky on the ball, but also physically inept. I’d have thought that league might have beefed him up a bit.

Ultimately it's up to him to want to be better, especially physically and without the ball. I just don’t see the drive in him to be a Premier League player? Maybe but time is running out for the step up.

Jon Withey
42 Posted 07/01/2018 at 22:34:10
Love watching him on the ball and thought he stood out in preseason with some match winning moments. Maybe he could do another year on loan if this is working out?

Forest are a decent sized club and he seems to be picked a lot in a successful side.

For me it's definitely the way for them to develop – and the best way for us to know if they can be in the first team.

Sam Hoare
43 Posted 07/01/2018 at 22:39:30
Our best players are always those out injured or on loan!!

Dowell has had a very good season in a very average, mid table Forest team. It does not mean he is better than or even as good as Barkley who should have been sold for £35m.

Dowell has great talent for sure but scoring a few wonder goals does not mean you are Premier League ready. He needs to keep working and hopefully show a roundedness to his game that some coaches believe has been lacking in the past.

Carl Allan
44 Posted 07/01/2018 at 22:50:30
He reminds me of Sheedy with that sweet left foot. You can't underestimate the plusses of a great set piece taker. For so long now most of our corners never beat the first man (Baines the worst culprit). When was the last time we had an Arteta type of free-kick taker?

Get him back for next season, I say.

Andy Williams
45 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:04:49
Bloody hell – lets slag off our young ones out on loan as well why don't we.

He placed a perfect cross for the first goal, brought the ball into the box and back-heeled it to the player that was brought down for the first pen and scored (jammily) the second pen.

If he could do that every couple of games, I wouldn't care if he spent the rest of the time sitting in the corner of the pitch reading his book. Obviously he has got more to learn but come on!

Dave Bowen
46 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:37:09
Ian (#13). Have you seen Calvert-Lewin play? Can't win a header, can't hold the ball up, can't score goals. Even Niasse, who is slagged off regularly in here, has scored more in about a quarter of the playing time. I can't disagree with the rest though.
John O'Brien
47 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:38:34
Spot on Andy. It's about time people on here looked at what they can do rather than what they're not so good at.

Kieran's gone to Forest as a young player learning the game, a genuine No 10 midfielder who is the leading scorer at the club and also 2nd in assists.

He is as a No 10 always going to drift out of the game if you play for a side with 30% possession as is the case today – Ozil and Silva would drift out of the game if they were playing with those stats.

As for the physicality, well he's improved massively in that area and playing in a physical league he more than holds his own, he defends competently in the zone at defensive set pieces, I've seen him win 50/50s on a regular basis, not every time.

The Forest fans adore him by the way and can't believe that they've got him.

I say all this as I go to nearly all the games at the City Ground as I often work in the area. There are some people on here who want every midfielder to be a Reid or Bracewell. Yes, you need those players but you also need the quality, guile, vision and goal potential this lad has who is on course for around 20 goals this year as a midfielder

Brian Williams
48 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:43:12
John (#29).

People slagged Sheedy, who Kieran's being compared to, rotten even in his heyday. Used to listen to blokes shouting "Lazy bastard" and "He can't fucking tackle."

Thing is, even Everton have supporters who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Bobby Thomas
49 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:54:19
Ian (#13),

I feel you're being a little harsh on Calvert-Lewin there but, admittedly, his back-to-goal play the other night was pretty poor. I thought he got well had off by Van Dijk, which may be expected at this point in their respective careers.

John O'Brien
50 Posted 07/01/2018 at 23:54:28
Brian, yes, I remember it well. I was a season ticket holder in Lower Bullens 1984-85 – our greatest ever season and the majority of the people round me were slagging off Sheedy all season – didn't even praise him when he did the twice-taken free-kick against Ipswich.

Many supporters seem to have an inbuilt mistrust of flair players like Sheedy and Kieran may come into that category.

By the way, Kieran only has 18 months left on his contract and I'm told his agent is the same as Barkley's. We should be looking to get him on a long-term deal very quickly to protect our investment.

Ed Prytherch
51 Posted 08/01/2018 at 00:57:54
I watched the Forest-Arsenal game on US TV today just to watch Dowell as I am from Ormskirk. He only needs one touch and his vision is excellent but he rarely challenges for the ball – too much like Barkley in that respect.

Maybe a team can afford to have one player like that but he will have to be balanced by a high energy player who gets stuck in. He will be much better if he becomes more aggressive.

Rob Halligan
52 Posted 08/01/2018 at 01:15:01
Just to slightly correct the last paragraph of the OP.

Referee Jon Moss consulted with his assistant over calls from Arsenal players that Dowell had made contact with the ball twice — television replays showed that the kick should indeed have been re-taken — but the goal stood and Forest progressed to the Fourth Round.

If a player touches the ball twice, then it is an indirect free kick to the opposition. So in this case, IF Dowell did touch the ball twice taking the penalty, then it should have been an indirect free kick to Arsenal.

Alan J Thompson
53 Posted 08/01/2018 at 02:23:08
Colin (#20); How far back is a "few years ago"? Would it include Ball, Harvey, Kendall, Royle, Husband, Hurst, Wright, Whittle or more recently Davies, Kenny. Calvert-Lewin, Holgate, et al?

The difference seems to be that one group played under a manager that encouraged them, albeit not all were Everton juniors, while the other group seemed to have succeeded through necessity.

It's not entirely true in every case but, if they're good enough, they're old enough. It's the man who can give them the opportunity that we must look to.

Mike Gaynes
54 Posted 08/01/2018 at 02:39:43
Andy #28, the backheel went off his own leg and then off a defender. It wasn't what you describe.

Nobody's "slagging off" the lad... just being realistic about what he does well and what he doesn't. Yes, his free kick was brilliant. He also hit the first defender on three corners. Yes, he controls the ball brilliantly. No, he doesn't win it off an opponent - ever.

Sheedy's my all-time favorite Blue, so please excuse me if I don't immediately buy into the comparison between the two.

Mike Gaynes
55 Posted 08/01/2018 at 02:42:56
Rob #35, sorry mate, but no. Any improperly taken free kick is re-taken, not awarded to the other side.
Ajay Gopal
56 Posted 08/01/2018 at 02:56:22
To those saying that Kieran doesn’t do defending well, he reportedly made a goal line clearance to keep the score 0-0 against Leeds last week. Just saying...
Andy Williams
57 Posted 08/01/2018 at 08:31:16
Dave (#46). Can I ask if you go to the game? If you do, then you must be having a chat or slipping off for a quick pint when the ball is played to Calvert-Lewin. He wins more aerial duels than anyone in the Premier League – that is a verified stat. He holds the ball up well but just doesn't have runners close to him.

Mike, that's the kind of criticism I am taking about. I apologise if you weren't slagging Dowell off in the same manner – I am just sick of the abuse that our young players receive on this site. I truly believe that one of the reasons that Barkley has just gone in such an appalling manner is due to the unrelenting criticism of him.

Rob Dolby
58 Posted 08/01/2018 at 09:07:44
Does Fabregas, Mata, Ozil, Eriksson or Mahrez win tackles and track back? No they don't they win football matches with flare, guile, skill and timing. If he can keep on developing, Dowell may turn into one of the above.

There is nothing wrong with ghosting in matches. I watched yesterday's game and he did a lot of running that created space for others. All of a sudden Brereton was open for an easy pass and run at the BFG Mertesaker.

Just because a player isn't in the action constantly doesn't mean he isn't impacting the game, when in position he always wanted the ball which is a good sign.

There is still a long way to go but this lad has a great chance of making it with us. He could be the elusive left mid that we have been missing for years. If he ever gets a run in our team we have Gueye, McCarthy, Davies and Schneiderlin to do his running for him.

Sam Hoare
59 Posted 08/01/2018 at 09:44:07
Rob (#58), the answer to your first question is yes, to a degree. These days even flair players have to do some of the basics too within the requirements of the team.

Eriksen is one of my favourites and works hard for his team. He makes more tackles, more interceptions and more clearances than Dowell per game. He also has a higher pass completion rate. And wins more headers. That's why he is a top player.

Dowell has great talent and i'm a big fan believe me. I really think he has a shot at making it as a regular our first team and hopes he gets a shot but he will need more than just an epic highlights reel. He's still very young and there's no reason he cannot develop his all round game. Many of those things can be taught, unlike his God given left peg.

Brian Williams
60 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:15:11
In the case of a "double hit" penalty, the penalty isn't retaken. It's disallowed and the free-kick goes to the opposition.

http://lebuzz.eurosport.co.uk/viral/photos-riyad-mahrez-scores-freakish-penalty-disallowed-bizarre-double-touch-28336/

Derek Thomas
61 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:17:30
Rob @ 58; Schneiderlin to do his running for him? Give over, he can't do his own running.
Rob Halligan
62 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:33:22
Mike (#55). There was an incident a couple of years ago, when a penalty taker, (can't remember who it was or the game) kicked the ball onto his other foot and the ball then flew into the net. The goal was disallowed and a free kick given to the defending team. See below, section 3. Unless this rule has changed as part of the law states the goalkeeper must stand on his goal line without moving his feet, as we all know now the goalkeeper can move along the line but not actually leave it.

Law 14 - Penalty-kick

A PK shall be taken from the penalty-mark and, when it is being taken, all players with the exception of the player taking the kick, properly identified, and the opposing goalkeeper, shall be within the field of play but outside the penalty-area, and at least 10 yards from the penalty-mark. The opposing goal-keeper must stand (without moving his feet) on his own goal-line, between the goal-posts, until the ball is kicked. The player taking the kick must kick the ball forward; he shall not play the ball a second time until it has been touched or played by another player. The ball shall be deemed in play directly it is kicked, i.e. when it has traveled the distance of its circumference. A goal may be scored directly from a PK. When a PK is being taken during the normal course of play, or when time has been extended at half-time or full-time to allow a PK to be taken or retaken, a goal shall not be nullified if, before passing between the posts and under the cross-bar, the ball touches either or both of the goal-posts, or the cross-bar, or the goal-keeper, or any combination of these agencies, providing that no other infringement has occurred.

Punishment:

For any infringement of this Law:

by the defending team, the kick shall be retaken if a goal has not resulted.
by the attacking team other than by the player taking the kick, if a goal is scored it shall be disallowed and the kick retaken.
by the player taking the PK, committed after the ball is in play, a player of the opposing team shall take in IFK from the spot where the infringement occurred, subject to the overriding conditions imposed in Law 13.

Rob Halligan
63 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:36:27
Brian (#60). Sorry, mate, just seen your post. Yep it was Mahrez and I clearly remember the goal being disallowed and a free kick awarded to the opposition.
Brian Williams
64 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:37:48
Rob (#62).

It was Mahrez v Man City. See my post #60.

Brian Williams
65 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:38:26
Ha. Musta been typing at the same time!
Chris Gould
66 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:40:46
Unfortunately there's little evidence to suggest that lazy players change their ways and become hard workers. They can sometimes produce it for moments in a game but quickly fall back to what comes naturally.

It's almost a casual arrogance that seems to make some players swan about the pitch looking barely interested, while others energetically put a real shift in.

Dowell has always played as if he doesn't like the physical aspect of the game, and will undoubtedly have been told hundreds of times to up his work rate and get more involved. I doubt he's capable of change but hope I'm wrong.

Rob Halligan
67 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:48:10
Brian, that incident was only May last year. Thought it was well longer than that.
Alan McGuffog
68 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:49:13
Total shite. I can't wait to see him next season and give him a sound booing. Don't worry... we'll soon break him!
Brian Williams
69 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:53:03
Rob, You're mind's going, mate. Don't fight it – it's less painful. I know!
Rob Halligan
70 Posted 08/01/2018 at 10:57:20
Talking of penalties, I see VAR (video assistant referee) is to be used in tonight's cup game between Brighton and Palace. It includes assisting in penalty decisions. I wonder if it also means the defending team can dispute a penalty decision?
Kevin Prytherch
71 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:06:08
Rob (#62),

Should it have been an indirect free kick or should it have been retaken?

Reason I ask is...

‘The ball is in play when it has travelled a circumference', the ball hadn't travelled a circumference before the second touch so it technically wasn't in play. Can you give a free kick before the ball is back in play?

Rob Halligan
72 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:14:09
Kevin, I understand that part of the rule, but I think it would be virtually impossible to determine how far the ball has travelled? If you think about it, when a kicker kicks the ball, his kicking foot is behind his other foot, probably a good two feet behind. As he slips and knocks the ball onto his other foot, I'd say it was a distance more than the circumference of the ball.
Rob Halligan
73 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:23:03
Sorry, I meant to say virtually impossible for the referee in real time, to determine how far the ball has travelled. Even using VAR would probably take too long. You'd need mathematicians using protractors to determine how far the ball has travelled.
Steve Bird
74 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:29:43
Rob, I played with you – your mistimed tackles and VAR would have turned your poor disciplinary record into a virtual criminal record!!

ps: I hope the sun is shining.

Rob Halligan
75 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:32:52
Haha Steve. Pot, kettle, black.
Brent Stephens
76 Posted 08/01/2018 at 11:58:44
A point re the use of VAR (I must look up the answer, anyway). I think the decision to use VAR is solely the ref's not the players (as in rugby?), unlike in cricket where a captain can request a video replay).

If so, will we now witness teams surrounding the ref calling for VAR, with some teams doing that more than others (guess who!)? I read in the Grauniad that players aggressively gesturing for VAR (with a square signal) will be cautioned "just like they are for asking for an opponent to be booked"). I can see that rule working more in the favour of some teams than others!

Chris Gould
77 Posted 08/01/2018 at 13:06:14
Alan (#68),

That is the biggest fear I have for Dowell. He doesn't appear to put a shift in, so unless he's getting assists or goals certain fans will lose patience quickly. We've seen it on here many times with many players. If you think it was bad for Ross, I fear it would be worse for Dowell.

If you think he can change his style then I hope you're right. But I don't believe he will be able to. The same criticism has been levelled at this kid for years and he hasn't changed. He actually reminds me of Bilyaletdinov more than Sheedy.

However, I will always support him and hope for the best for as long as he's ours.

Derek Knox
78 Posted 09/01/2018 at 13:00:05
Having read and agreed with most who have watched matches with Kieran, he does seem to do a 'Houdini' during the game.

He doubtlessly has talent; apparently we have been looking at Ben Brereton, Kieran's young team-mate who got MotM against Arsenal. Forest are desperate to keep Kieran, so logically we could arrange a swap, provided both players would agree to it.

Food for thought.

Gio Mero
79 Posted 09/01/2018 at 15:14:04
Did I read 9 goals and six assists? In his first experience in the Championship? Beginning of Jan? I'd say he's doing better than anyone associated with Everton at the moment.

He doesn't stamp his mark on matches? Goals and assists aside I guess? I haven't seen any of his performances. I guess if he as to play to the level some here are requiring of him he'd probably be on 20 goals and 20 assists... wasted talent

Jay Harris
80 Posted 09/01/2018 at 15:21:44
He reminds me of a latter day Duncan McKenzie.

Silky touches, spectacular goals but never puts shift in.

Dave Abrahams
81 Posted 10/01/2018 at 14:18:46
Gio (79), you have a point but, when you see him, you might understand what those of us pointing out his faults, also his many good points, are talking about.
Michael Kenrick
82 Posted 11/01/2018 at 16:36:05
Looks like any possibility of Kieran Dowell returning early from his loan at Nottm Forest has been ruled out:

Everton Youngster Remains At Forest
.

Jon Withey
83 Posted 11/01/2018 at 17:08:50
For sure let him finish the season – not enough competitions to accommodate him in the first team right now.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

84 Posted 11/01/2018 at 17:27:01
Kieran staying at Forest is a positive, Michael!

As Jon says, he is likely to get more game time there which is priceless at this stage of his career. He has genuinely sublime skills you can't teach.

Like many, I was surprised and disappointed to learn Liam Walsh was sold, but you have to say, no academy player that we let go or sold for a fee has seriously 'bit us on the bum' and showed it up as a bad decision.

Some may quote Eric Dier, but he was never fully our player, just loaned from Sporting; and Mustafi, who we poached from Hamburg as a 17-year-old, so not truly a 'full Everton academy babe'.

Of the rest very few made it to PL level and even then only with low ranking teams. Most find their level in league one and two.

Dave Abrahams
85 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:09:49
Jay (#84),

I think a lot of Everton fans would like the ins and outs of Liam Walsh's transfer explained. How much did he go for? Is there any percentage fee due to us when Liam is sold on? Did Everton try to persuade him to stay? Had Allardyce seen Liam in training? Did Steve Walsh have any say in him staying or going? Was Liam adamant that he wanted to go?

The reason I am asking these questions, like yourself Jay, is I was disappointed that Liam was sold on. He is not just a run-of-the-mill player, but one who has a big chance of being a top player, illustrated by him going straight into Bristol City's first team (as a sub) against Man City in the semi-final of the League Cup.

Maybe Liam insisted on going, but there was very little about the transfer spoken about by the club and some of us would like to know some more. Treat us with a little respect now and again. I don't think we are asking for anything out of the ordinary.

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