FA could investigate old Holgate tweets

Wednesday 10 January 2018  94 Comments  [Jump to last]
Mason Holgate could face an investigation by the Football Association into years-old posts to Twitter by the defender when he was 15 and 16 that contained homophobic epithets.

Holgate was involved in a verbal showdown with Liverpool's Roberto Firmino after his shove ended with the Brazilian tumbling into the stand at Anfield during the FA Cup Third Round tie last Friday.

Holgate reacted furiously at something Firmino said as they squared up to each other, accusing the forward of racist abuse.

No formal charge of racism has been levelled at Firmino by Everton or Holgate, nor did referee Robert Madley, who was standing between the two players, take any action but the FA are said to be investigating the matter.

The aftermath saw enraged Liverpool supporters combing through historical posts on Twitter, however, looking for dirt on Holgate which saw posts from 2012 and 2013 from the then teenager resurface.

Holgate has long since deleted the offending tweets but there are reports from outlets like The Telegraph that the FA could consider taking action against him regardless.

His age could be a mitigating factor in any censure from the game's governing body.  


Reader Comments (94)

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Brian Williams
1 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:11:06
I genuinely wanted to find out if it's officially homophobic to call a mate a faggot or a batty boy. I came across a couple of interesting articles. The first involving Rio Ferdinand:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2006/oct/02/radio.bbc

The second was a random one I came across.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/casey-cavanagh/an-open-letter-to-people-_b_8011324.html

The second one caught my attention because the author states:

You don't get to impose your own meaning on words and use them on, or against, other people... at least not while holding the ignorant belief it will go without ridicule — that the context you're using it in is excusable. You can't reclaim something without a thorough understanding of where it came from and the problem surrounding it. And the fact that you use it so carelessly leads me to assume you don't have that thorough understanding.

And yet the homosexual community do just that by, instead of using the term 'homosexual', using the word 'gay'. 'Gay' never used to mean 'homosexual' but it's now a term that homosexuals readily use to refer to themselves. Is that not a case of homosexuals imposing their own meaning on words?

Either way if Mason Holgate is banned for some ill advised tweets between friends or acquaintances from when he was 15 years of age then I despair for the existence of common sense!

If he'd tweeted "he's a fat bastard" would he be in trouble with every overweight person who happened to be born out of wedlock?

Anthony Hughes
2 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:11:55
I wonder if any social media savvy blues could go back and drag up some shite on their players? But then those fuckers are angels aren't they?
Ian Bennett
3 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:17:09
When he was 15 or 16? Have they nothing else to do?

How about providing decent pitches for grass-roots football that isn't submerged with dog turds or waterlogged due to under-invested drainage!

Mark Tanton
4 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:17:36
This is what happens when you upset the footballing establishment. Liverpool, the old ties brigade.
Anthony Hughes
5 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:17:44
The existence of common sense has long since vanished in this country. Everyone and anyone seems to find offence or take offence on somebody's behalf for the most minor of things.

If racism or homophobia is present then by all means punish the offenders as it is no way acceptable but it feels as if every comment or written word is constantly under censor and scrutiny.

Paul Hughes
6 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:24:08
Horrible Reds dredging up what a kid posted to try and deflect from the Firmino bust-up. Horrible Times newspaper having it as the main back-page headline too. Not a word of course about the cheating Lallana.

I'm so glad there's no record of what I said and did as a teenager and student.

Stan Schofield
7 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:37:42
The FA should focus on stamping out cheating, which is a form of corruption when it's open but goes unpunished. The central event to be investigated from Friday's game is Lallana's dive. It should be treated like the Niasse penalty incident was treated, otherwise it smacks of corruption at an underlying level within the FA.
Phil Bellis
8 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:38:47
"Fuck off, Rush, you ugly big-nosed turncoat, kopite, Welsh bastard!"... A classic shout that started an altercation twixt nationalities in the Lower Gwladys many years ago... Today, there'd be "investigations" and banning orders all round.
Jay Harris
9 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:53:57
It is a sad day in human history when "Free speech" is now restricted to "Controlled speech" by the politically correct brigade.

I am by no means racist but you can't even have a joke or banter with people anymore for fear of falling foul of the rules.

Minority groups are far more dangerous than the average man in the street,.

Paul Doyle
10 Posted 10/01/2018 at 17:57:54
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

No mention about either incident at the dung heap last Friday.

Fran Mitchell
11 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:06:03
Let's not let this rather silly situation turn into a space for the "It's so unfair, we can't even be racist, sexist or homophobic anymore" brigade. The "Us straight, white males are so oppressed" brigade are the most pathetic group of then all.

Of course, all homophobic, racist, sexist, misogynistic comments should not be condoned. But that does not mean punishing a 21-/22-year-old for comments made when 15.

Brian Williams
12 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:09:41
If you look up the definition of homophobia it's pretty damn obvious that Masons tweets don't qualify!!

Insensitive maybe, but not homophobic.

Last time I checked, there's no law against insensitivity.

Des Farren
13 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:17:14
Brian 1) Really, times change. Words that were used 40 or 50 years ago, like queer, homo, etc, are not acceptable anymore; not just to Gays, but to the vast majority of decent fair-minded people.

The word "homosexual", because of it's clinical history, is deemed offensive and mainly, imo, used by people in an aggressive and insulting way.

And finally, I think I was in trouble with yourself for using the name Fat Sam recently which you deemed a derogatory term?

Anthony Hughes
14 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:18:19
Not yet, Brian!
Oliver Brunel
15 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:26:42
This should be out of the reach of the FA, they are not some sort of moral police force – they should mind their own business.

Is it just me or is anyone else in the UK just bored shitless by the liberal inquisition?

Anthony Hughes
16 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:27:14
The thing is though who decides which particular word is or isn't acceptable? There's a very vocal hard left minority now that sees fit to tell us what we allowed to think or say. I doubt if any ToffeeWebers are racist or homophobic but we all have to watch what we say and, as Jay said, banter is very dodgy ground now.

Ray Jacques
17 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:32:48
I feel guilty being a white middle-aged, middle-class man in this country. I also play at a nice golf club.

I've only worked hard all my life and paid fortunes in tax and National Insurance for all those years and not caused any bother to others or asked for anything.

This country is now a politically correct shithole where people are looking for excuses to be offended.

Brian Williams
18 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:41:13
Des. The word 'homosexual' is the word in just about every recognised dictionary there is, to describe people attracted to their own sex. The word just cannot be compared to the words you used 'queer' and 'homo'. There's a huge difference as it's not derogatory – it merely describes, without prejudice.

I seem to remember the Fat Sam thing, yes. So tell me, when are you up in court for that? When does your ban on here begin? How long have you been out of work after being fired for using the FatSam name? See how ridiculous that would be?

There was another footballer quite recently who tweeted or posted in a homophobic manner. He said something about "burn all gays". That's homophobic. Calling someone you know a faggot or a batty boy most definitely isn't. It's not right but is calling your mate 'a fat bastard' right?

Incidentally, a guy I know states that he's homosexual because he considers the word 'gay' (his words not mine) ... "so gay". So, while I respect your opinion, that doesn't mean your opinion suits all situations and, after all, is the view of one person in this instance.

I certainly don't use the word in an aggressive or insulting way. I use it because I believe it's the correct word and not a derogatory one used 40 or 50 years ago.


Rob Young
19 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:45:18
The reason Holgate is being investigated for something he said years ago as a teenager is because some knobhead with no life dug through his Twitter history because a white-toothed ladyboy racially abused him on a football field?

He should have tackled him like Funes Mori.
.

Nigel Munford
20 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:45:29
Jay at 9, should that not be ‘the person in the street'

Only kidding, heard a news story on the radio this morning about the armed forces having to look into other areas for recruits, as they are 'under-manned' – I was half expecting a news item condemning that comment this evening.

Len Hawkins
21 Posted 10/01/2018 at 18:58:52
Well the old saying "the lunatics have taken over the Asylum" is alive and kicking in the Anfield area. I hope every red neck gets terminal piles and uncontrollable bowel movements. Horrible scum.
Phil Bellis
22 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:09:11
If Barkley ever does show up at Goodison, there will no doubt be chants of "Chelsea rent boy..." Next 5 games behind closed doors, then, if that happens


Dave Lynch
23 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:21:50
The PC police have done nothing but divide gender, race, sexuality and creed.

There was an incident in my job when a lesbian worker called a heterosexual female a "Breeder". When a complaint was put in, the heterosexual female was told to stop being over sensitive.

Charles Brewer
24 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:22:03
Because using a standard Jamaican insult when you are 15 deserves much more punishment than anything Liverpool supporters have ever done in the past.

One of the uses of language is insult. It is a normal and socially useful function. Which is more than can be said for the totalitarian PC culture which infests our most useless public bodies, such as the BBC and the FA.

Mark Boulle
25 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:31:34
Not to put the cat deliberately amongst the pigeons or anything, but we have no proof at all do we that Red Shite supporters are behind this...? Millions of people will have watched that game, millions more will have subsequently watched replays of the altercation and the rumours of racist abuse by Firmino.

The way social media seems to operate these days, unearthing whatever Holgate once tweeted many moons ago could be the work of any bedroom-bound geek who's not seen natural light or clean underwear in weeks!

It fits our narrative of course for a red to have done it, and I'll be as hopping mad as the next man if Holgate is banned for some infantile crap he posted as a teenager – after all, we know footballers aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer on the whole anyway, even less so when they're adolescents!

But to conclude from these rumours that a coordinated Red Shite effort is behind this does seem a little far fetched... doesn't it?

Phil Sammon
26 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:34:05
This is simply wrong. If it's illegal, let the police deal with it. No way should the Football Association be getting involved in this business, particularly 7 years after the event.

Was Giggs punished for his alleged affair? How far do you go?

Barry McNally
27 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:38:49
Another reason not to engage in social media!
Stan Schofield
28 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:40:08
My take on this kind of episode is that it reflects what politicians have always done with people: Divide and rule.

Whether it's Catholics vs Protestants, Christians vs Muslims, Capitalists vs Communists, Public sector vs Private sector, Black vs White, Straight vs Gay, Male vs Female, Young vs Old, it doesn't matter, the politicians love it. It takes focus away from the real issues, the really big fish to fry, like corruption in government, arms dealing, drug dealing, and the associated vested interests of the powerful.

And the problem is, a lot of people fall for it time and again, hook, line and sinker.

Des Farren
29 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:41:33
Brian. I think we may be at cross purposes here. I am not talking of dictionary definitions. I am simply saying that, in my experience, the word 'homosexual' is not anymore used in social discourse. Of course my opinion is..simply that..my opinion.

Btw, were you seriously offended by my reference to Fat Sam? I hope not as I intend to continue its usage (if allowed). ;)

Anthony Hughes
30 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:45:39
Suspecting Liverpool fans of unearthing these comments is surely Redshiteism? Completely acceptable, is it not?
Shaun Sparke
31 Posted 10/01/2018 at 19:48:30
Guys, it's 2018. There is absolutely no place for name calling and offensive language. Back in 1977, Clive Thomas was a cheating Welsh Prick! In 2005 Collina was a bald Italian cheat and in 2007, Clattenburg was a Gerrard nob-sucking English son of a whore! But we have moved on from all this, we are better than this now. We are far more enlightened.

Firminio is a Brazillian gentleman with a penchant for teeth whitening and occasionally allowing himself to utter words of dubious racial reference. However, he plays for Liverpool and therefore he couldn't possibly be guilty of being anything other than a true professional, who is ever-so-slightly misunderstood.

I will be first in the queue to buy A Firminio T-shirt when Klopp comes out with this bold and original initiative. All we really need is one gigantic collective hug. So, my message is to find your nearest Kopite and give him/her a big hug. Then the world would be a much better place…..Ahem!

Jim Knightley
32 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:00:49
What is the rubbish I'm reading on here..a vocal hard left minority define things do they?! Last time I checked the Tories were in power, the society is capitalistic, and right-wing media dominates the UK. Maybe I've been living somewhere else... or maybe political correctness is used as a tag to dismiss left wing people or ideas? Like Corbyn who risks being drawn and quartered for criticising the empire... a contradiction there perhaps?

We have always be told what we can and cannot say and do. Could you swear at school or in certain social situations? For long was blasphemy a problem? For much of modern history people couldn't vote or compete for certain jobs because of their skin colour, gender etc etc. It is odd that now the grievance is criticising words that have the capacity to hurt people – i.e the normality of homophobic words. And I was at school in the 90s and words like batty etc were commonplace. Anyone outed as gay in my all boys school would have gone through hell. Less masculinised boys were bullied and subject to these terms.

Holgate's words are a product of that – a way of disciplining and regulating people through words and that is changing now. But he was 15 and 16 - it is not the same as saying it when he was an adult and we've all said stuff in the past we'd hate to be brought up for all to see. It doesn't deserve a ban – just the warn him about future conduct bullshit.

My concern would be Holgate risking a red in the first half in our most important game of the season. He needs to mature in that respect.

Bryan Houghton
33 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:15:02
I suspect that the only reason the FA are only involved to some cursory degree is so that they cant be accused of institutional racism, for NOT becoming involved – if that makes sense, ie, To ignore it is to condone it.

At least I hope so. God knows what the 'jumpers-for-goalposts' old boys will make of it at the FA, though I only hope that they make a statement to say they have been alerted about it, they have considered it, and they have decided that it is neither a matter for the police, nor is it a matter for the ethics committee.

For an old cynic, reading what I'm just about to post does sound a bit naive though. Sadly I think that common sense won't prevail here.

Mike Gaynes
34 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:22:08
Jim Knightley, well said all around.

I too dismiss the argument that all this is "totalitarian PC culture" to quote Charles Brewer. I live in a country that has never been more conservative or bigots more emboldened, and in which the infantile insult is the president's daily style of communication. Yet the awareness of race-, gender- and religion-based abuse is at an all-time high. Basic respect isn't a PC value, it's something that every human being should be entitled to.

That said, I don't believe Holgate should be suspended for the stupid things he said as a kid.

Brian Williams
35 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:22:59
Des (#29).

So you appear to support homosexuals who are allegedly offended by being referred to as homosexuals and then proclaim you will continue to exhibit weight based discrimination by referring to our slightly calorifically challenged manager as "Fat Sam."

I'm horrified and feel "third party harassed."

Don't calorifically challenged people have feelings too? :-0

Steve Bird
38 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:28:12
You cant bring people to task for what they said when they were 15/16. That's just a snapshot in your life.

I'm in my late 50s now and am aghast by some of the things I said in my 20s and 30s.

It's all about cultural and personal development.

Nothing to see here move along.

Jim Bennings
39 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:29:20
What with this shambles and the insane Moshiri comments about voodoo in the AGM, it's just adding to the farce that's starting to surround this season something terrible, this is not going to be a season we look back on with any fondness at all YET AGAIN!!!
Des Farren
40 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:32:53
Yes, Brian, your point does appear to be "weight based"!

My Netflix appears to be recovering so I'll say goodnight.

Rob Halligan
43 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:38:15
Steve, I clearly remember two little words you said in your 20s, 30s and 40s.

"I DO".

Don't think you've said them in your 50s yet.

Steve Bird
44 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:40:45
Rob (#43),

You are on the invite list.

Martin Clark
46 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:44:07
It seems to have achieved what it was most likely intended and that was to distract the focus from their actions. Lallana must have trouble on a windy day standing and this rubbish about Firmino just calling him a son of a bitch is ridiculous as it's obviously what was said afterwards that incensed Holgate that is out of view from the footage I saw.
Jack Convery
47 Posted 10/01/2018 at 20:47:35
I keep thinking I'm going to wake up and find its mid July 2017 and the season is about to start and all this crap EFC are embroiled in is actually just a nightmare brought on by a bite of Cheddar, with a nice Merlot just before bed time. If only!
Dave Abrahams
49 Posted 10/01/2018 at 21:00:24
Jim (32), very good post.

Dorothy Parker famed writer and critic in the 1930's said, "The do-gooders of the world are the louses of the world".

The do-gooders in today's world are the politicaly correct people who, in most cases, would be better minding their own business. (That is, if no-one minds.)

Derek Thomas
50 Posted 10/01/2018 at 21:06:47
Two 'wrongs' still don't make a 'right' – clear case of rs deflection here. The key question is why and what are they trying to hide.

It's 2 separate issues/cases... they're going to need a lot of boots to jump on everything every stupid 15-year-old says... at that age, you're pretty much the definition of stupid. Some even grow out of it, probably not jounos or FA Officials though.

Lev Vellene
52 Posted 10/01/2018 at 21:27:25
Heh, at 13-19, I was totally suicidal in my mind-set, although the execution was rather poor and not directed to shout for help (!)... I'm still alive after I grew up some 7-10 years after that... I was dead serious about not ending up that way after that the hormone-time, though... ;P

If the FA decides to make Holgate pay dearly for juvenile jibes that anyone in his bracket did by rote at the time, then shame on them! The male brain is not fully developed until at around 22-year-old. The part dealing with risks and consequences is the last one finished! I wonder how history could tell us that one is quite on the mark?

If the UK would jail anyone for those tweets, at that tender age, then there is nothing we can do! But if parroting any kid's phrases/slang in his neighborhood, is to condemn a more adult individual, then we are all defenseless!

Rob Dolby
54 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:03:23
Consistency is what we need not just one rule for the media darlings and open season for the rest of us.

If Holgate is guilty of homophobia based on historic social media then every players history should be investigated and treated accordingly though god knows what punishment could be handed out.

This smacks of the "offended by everything and ashamed of nothing" brigade.

Shearer and his family were getting slaughtered by that crowd just because he disagreed with the pen decision. The whole thing is a joke.

Peter Gorman
55 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:10:52
I am just in from work and have variously heard the Holgate incident described by Reds as 'an assault' 'deserving of a straight red card' 'throwing Firmino into the crowd where a child may have been hurt' (I'm hoping that one was tongue-in-cheek but I really cannot say) and even 'playing the race-card'.

I'd like to say that making the tweets of a 15-year-old kid the focus of any investigation is frankly ridiculous, but I am afraid of stooping to the depth of sheer hysteria I've had to hear from our neighbours ever since the derby.

Brent Stephens
57 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:20:07
Don't let the rs fans shift the focus of the debate, don't fall for it - stop discussing possible historic issues.
Steavey Buckley
58 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:27:10
The alleged tweets were not flagged at the time nor was Mason Holgate at Everton. He was with Barnsley. If the FA do decide to investigate Holgate this would be a form of persecution of a former young person.

If I was any high profile person I would not have any social media accounts in case I was persecuted for the rest of my life if I stated something wrong at any time. At times like this, it is good to be a nobody.

Don Alexander
59 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:36:33
In Yarksher t'terms worree used meanz wer mates yer daft buggers!
Barry Williams
60 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:47:04
Does anyone think gays/homosexuals (delete as appropriate) would actually be offended by this?
Tom Bowers
61 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:49:55
Political correctness and all it's affiliates are just becoming ridiculous because of social media pettiness by so many morons.

Like most of us I despise racism, homophobia, sexual harassment or sexual abuse in any shape or form but these days it's become an excuse for people to retaliate against anyone they don't like or are jealous of and in some cases an excuse to extort money.

Once an accusation is made public, the accused is generally thought to be guilty come what may.

It is time for common sense to prevail but I fear the posting of anything and everything on social media has become a disease for which there is no cure as yet.

Philip Bunting
62 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:55:07
All blues need to bind rock solid together and fight the wave of negative publicity spouted by the redshite and their media partners.

This stadium is killing them, they are gonna dig and dig, critiscise, debate, redicule, belittle etc etc just like the playground bully. Its up to us to stick together, promote, encourage, reason, stand tall and hold our ground. We have had a shit 5 months of the season but now is the time to move forward.

When I read that Liverpool fans have spent their time going back 5 years to dig dirt on a young lad that was not eligible to vote, could barely make beans on toast, I felt pity for them, I really do. Never mind the FA getting involved. Shameful to say the least.

Colin Glassar
63 Posted 10/01/2018 at 22:57:42
Just heard that Tommy Lawrence died. RIP, The Flying Pig. We all used to have a good laugh at his expense back in the day. But he was a good sport about it.
Charles Brewer
64 Posted 10/01/2018 at 23:10:42
Colin, Tommy Lawrence was, to the best of my understanding, a decent man who may have played for the opposition, but not the enemy. RIP
Eric Paul
65 Posted 10/01/2018 at 23:20:12
The meek really have inherited the earth, hats off to Jake Livermore for taking matters into his own hands and the FA for taking no action.
Colin Glassar
66 Posted 10/01/2018 at 23:20:27
Absolutely Charles. He was known, fondly, as the flying pig due to his “size”. He was a brilliant reflex goalie but you could roll a ball past him with relative ease (as he couldn’t get down fast enough) and both sets of fans would have a laugh at him and “Honey” West.

Those were the days of the friendly derby. Tough but fair games without any of the hatred we see today.

Will Mabon
67 Posted 10/01/2018 at 23:38:14
"The PC police have done nothing but divide gender, race, sexuality and creed."


Correct, Dave. As designed from the very top. "They" will have us totally nailed down in not so many years with words and -isms at this rate. Divide, conquer, and reformat society.

How many "Genders" are we at now in Snowflake world, thirty-odd and climbing? "Gender" is being used as the word, the concept, to blur, separate and pare down what people naturally, biologically are... their sex.

Social engineering in full swing. Sadly, too many are gobbling it up (no specific gender-offending connotation intended). It's going to get worse in the future, you'll need an app to tell you which bathroom room to crap in.

Will Mabon
68 Posted 10/01/2018 at 23:49:10
"Minority groups are far more dangerous than the average man in the street".


Correct there also, Jay. How did all these minority groups appear in recent decades - just organically grow from committed people's desire to right perceived wrongs: Or was there more to it?

How do they always seem to receive prime media coverage? Why does the "Law" seem to increasingly be on their side? How come they're promoted as being representative of a much larger aspect of society than real life experience would appear to indicate?

Was there a background supporting force behind all this? There was, and there is. A little off-mainstream research will reveal the truth for anyone interested.

David Barks
69 Posted 11/01/2018 at 00:06:59
Will Mabon,

What in the hell are you suggesting?

Barry Williams
70 Posted 11/01/2018 at 00:44:29
Be careful how you refer to each other folks!

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/top-grammar-school-bans-pupils-called-girls-case-offends-transgender-students-104622401.html

Will Mabon
71 Posted 11/01/2018 at 00:48:36
David, I don't know which specific part of my post(s) you refer to, but spend some time looking into what's going on globally, where the world is being taken, and who's behind it. It isn't countries' governments pulling the strings anymore, it's global.
Will Mabon
72 Posted 11/01/2018 at 01:09:38
Case in point, Barry @ 70.

Is this just local authorities "Nannying", copying each other or being "Out of step/knee-jerking/pandering to feelings"... schools and local authorities just simultaneously addressing gender identity "Issues". Or is there something pushing it all?

People sleeping on the streets, a whole generation struggling to house themselves. Disabled people having their benefits reduced. Swathes of the population earning minimum wage. Huge post-university debts. Working in the middle of the night Sundays for single time, minimum wage. Zero hours contracts. And more.

Meanwhile, young people are being "Helped" to question their gender identity. What's driving all this lunacy? Is it just, happening?

Ernie Baywood
73 Posted 11/01/2018 at 01:19:41
The message this sends is just horrible. If you accuse someone of racism, you will have every inch of your life scrutinised to find a stick to beat you with. Even if that means a couple of silly, but insensitive, tweets when you were in your early teens.

Now, was he racially abused by Firmino? Right now nobody except Firmino and Holgate knows. What I do know is that we're getting nothing more than speculation and a witchhunt and that's disgraceful mishandling.

If Holgate maintains he was racially abused then I'd hope to hear something from the club and the FA.

What really needs to happen in this investigation?
- Ask Holgate what was said. If he says it was racist, then go to the next step.
- Ask the ref what Firmino said while his head was turned. Doesn't know? Next step.
- Ask Firmino what was said. Not racist? Next step.
- Check the video angles. Not conclusive? Move on.

Release a statement that the facts cannot be established and publicise Kick it Out.

That could all happen in about an hour.

Barry Williams
74 Posted 11/01/2018 at 01:41:23
Will Mabon - 72

Divide and conquer? Put everyone in a bracket at a young age, have enough brackets, people are divided.

I live away from the UK a lot, and believe me many communities just don't have a community anymore. When I left my town in Liverpool in 2001, my area had 5 pubs that I would go to depending on the occasion or who I was with. Forward to 2018, how many are left? Zero! Not to be replaced!

Also, at what age should kids be discussing their sexuality!!?? Rhetorical question!

Back to things Everton, yes what is happening confirms my paranoias/suspicions!

Geoff Lambert
75 Posted 11/01/2018 at 01:44:58
This could drag on longer than one of our signings.

Am I allowed to say drag??

Jim Harrison
76 Posted 11/01/2018 at 02:08:00
I think it’s quite straight forward.

All young people should be educated in the proper use of social media and its pitfalls.

The FA should issue a statement to the effect of “the FA are committed to eradicating all forms of discrimination from the game. Whilst we are investigating the alleged comments we would emphasise caution in coming to any conclusion. We have issued guidelines to all clubs regarding education on players in the use of social media platforms”.

15/16 year olds are not always aware of how their actions affect others. An ill advised tweet does not make a child a homophobe, it makes them naive. That is not to say excusable either.

I find it funny that the FA are not interested in the Liverpool player shouting either son of a bitch or whore, depending on how you translate, at another player on camera? Given the current climate surrounding the treatment and attitudes towards women I would have thought that the use of such derogatory terms would be at least worth a rebuke?

Perhaps it would help if an aggrieved fan made a direct complaint?

Steavey Buckley
77 Posted 11/01/2018 at 02:32:56
Jim Harrison, are you accusing Holgate of something that he has not made statement about? All young people do say things that may not be appropiate, but it is part of their learning curve, that comes with experience.
Jim Harrison
78 Posted 11/01/2018 at 02:41:04
Steavey, not at all, and apologies if that’s how it reads.
Alan J Thompson
79 Posted 11/01/2018 at 02:47:51
Smoke and mirrors.

It's one of their favourites being accused so all kinds must be thrown at the fan to confuse the matter. So what's new?

Jim Harrison
80 Posted 11/01/2018 at 02:51:29
Steavey, that said, and I am not sure if this happens already, teams should be educating players from a young age about the pitfalls of Social Media. Holgate wasn't with us as a youth player so can't say it has anything to do with the club's approach.
Steavey Buckley
81 Posted 11/01/2018 at 03:11:00
Jim Harrison: Every time the left are in power either in the USA or the UK freedom of speech is eroded unless they approve. No wonder there was a surge of support for Nigel Farage and Donald Trump. Yet, I am glad I had my upbringing a long time ago.
Jim Harrison
82 Posted 11/01/2018 at 04:16:22
I don't think it's about freedom of speech so much as being aware of your surroundings and the scope of your actions. If I did what Holgate is accused of I may get rebuked by some mates, he as a young footballer at a professional club would have been in a position that his potential career projectory could (in his case has) put him in a high profile position where fairly or not he is judged/scrutinised more closely.

The nature of Facebook and Twitter has changed since it emerged, the reach of an innocuous comment previous would be your mates. Now it can go worldwide in no time. In this case people have actively tried to find something to pin on the lad and seem to have had some success. If someone managed to find my old school work books, I imagine they would have found far worse scribbled on the inside covers!

Steavey Buckley
83 Posted 11/01/2018 at 05:26:32
Jim Harrison, even Lewis Hamilton, a really big favourite of mine, a real winner, has deleted his social media accounts for stating something sincerely yet others took offence to, as if big brother is actual watching over people, as prophecised by George Orwell in his book 1984.
Darren Hind
84 Posted 11/01/2018 at 05:41:49
I've watched this game again and the over-the-wall incident was not an isolated case, they had been at it pretty much throughout the game. It was a derby game FFS and they were doing what their fans demanded of them.

The reaction of the RS fans to the incident was shear hysteria. this "He could have killed him" nonsense is typical of your average Kopite. The fact that the young Brazilian didn't have a mark on doesn't seem to have registered.

I loved the way Young Mason stood his ground in the face a player who's rage seemed to be fuelled by the outrage of a couple of thousand RS in the stand... does anybody here doubt they would have cheered if the roles were reversed ?

I wouldn't want to condone Holgate’s actions. No sir, Not me... but if he wasn't my favourite player before the game; he is now.

Kristian Boyce
85 Posted 11/01/2018 at 06:22:03
Despite lacking in morals, the RS PR/Media team have pulled off an absolute blinder here. I'm disgusted with myself for saying it, but they've been really clever and have diverted all the attention on to us instead of them.

I'm skeptical that 'fans' dug up the Holgate tweets, and as per usual it was highlighted by the Mirror, the RS mouthpiece. I wouldn't be surprised if the paper was fed this info from the club. The media scrutiny now has basically tarnished Holgate's reputation and labeled him a homophobe. From digging up a couple of tweets made by a teenager, they've successfully questioned his character in front of the national media. Basically, they've gone about discrediting him and turned him into a hate figure. Technically there's proof that he's a homophobe, but Firmino can't be proven to be a racist, so he comes out of it looking good.

It's funny how an off the cuff remark from Morshiri has caused a huge uproar in the media, and even on here. Lyndon covers it great in the AGM thread, but it's amazing how a comment can get blown completely out of proportion. Isn't it funny how it's been twisted now that its a racial comment towards a play of African descent? Conveniently making our owner look like a racist, again directing attention away from other racial incidents. Even the slightly bizarre Joe Anderson/Barkley story makes national news, making us look slightly ridiculous. All these stories have sprung up right after the Firmino incident, coincidence?

The RS PR team have loved this as it's drawn coverage away from the whole Lallana dive. Remember the uproar for the days after the Niasse dive? I believe he was charged either the tue/wed after the game, mainly due to the constant media attention it brought. While 99% of the media said it was a dive at the time, somehow all the other junk that's gone on has overshadowed any interest in that dive.

Colin Glassar
86 Posted 11/01/2018 at 07:54:36
Are you surprised Kristian? I've been saying this for years but have been accused of being OTT, paranoid, silly etc... the rs dominate the media in all its forms and are quite unapologetic about it.

How many rs pundits are there on radio and tv? How many rs have newspaper columns? How many rs (who are not regular media contributors) are constantly called upon by the media to comment on anything rs related? Tons of them!!!

Ffs, Stevie Me lar is constantly in the papers regarding his work at their academy. Their fucking academy!! What other academy coach ever gets a mention in the press?

Holgate, Moshiri and any other Evertonian is on a hiding to nothing if they ever dare bring LFC into disrepute. In a way, I admit that slimey bill has managed to avoid any controversy with that shitty club over the years. He knows how the cookie crumbles with the media.

Tony Hill
88 Posted 11/01/2018 at 09:08:05
I should imagine that Holgate cares not a jot, not deep down, though he may express or be required to express some PR niceties. A proper, hard-faced competitor in the team is great to see. Him, Kenny and Pickford bode well in that department and I doubt that Mr Tosun will be a shrinking violet.

Long overdue.

Steve Cotton
89 Posted 11/01/2018 at 09:09:25
Spot on, Colin, look at the shit dished out for Alan Shearer for saying he thought the Lallana collapse was not a penalty, literally hundreds trolled him, his wife and his kids… Even the Russians don't get on social media that much when trying to influence elections!

If a single article appears in a newspaper column or on the internet allowing comments, then their supporters fill it with vile and personal attacks immediately…

And another thing while I am ranting, we support them 100% over Hillsborough, it's like we are all one. The next day, they are slagging us off every chance they get. Makes me think about not backing them next time...

Bob Parrington
90 Posted 11/01/2018 at 11:23:54
Ultimately this is about whether or not Firmino made a racialist comment to Holgate on the evening of the game. Either he did or he didn't. The rest is gobshite. If the powers that be can't decide on this issue then they shouldn't be in the position to preside.

It's a "yes" or a "no". There cannot be any grey areas. So get the fuck on with it and let's play football.

Yes, I am peeped off with the whole subject!!!

Rudi Coote
92 Posted 11/01/2018 at 13:09:56
It's not like he murdered anyone, is it?

Just shows how vile and nasty kopites are.

James Morgan
93 Posted 11/01/2018 at 13:17:15
I can't stand social media; I'm glad I'm not on it. The twitch-hunt mob are always on the lookout for someone's offensive tweets from years ago so they can whip up a storm and hound them out of a job. I'd hate to think what would've been said about some of the stuff I said when I was 15, jeez.

What riles me most is the “holier than thou” attitude these people have who are so offended. I bet they've never said something offensive or insensitive.

My brother is at college and the tutors can't even say “boys and girls” whilst addressing the class.

The pendulum has swung so far left that the right feel the need for a Trump. Divide and conquer.

Christian Watson
94 Posted 11/01/2018 at 13:30:18
Quite pleased I'm not famous or in the public eye! They could fill an entire newspaper with what I said when I was in my teens. Thankfully even if I was to gain notoriarty for something, anything, these days, the Internet wasn't around when I was 'airing my views'. Phew!!
John Keating
95 Posted 11/01/2018 at 14:54:10
When I was a kid going the match in the late 50s with my litte rattle one of my aunties was well into knitting. She used to cut lengths of royal blue and white wool and make men figures out of them, a bit like the telly people wear for prostate cancer awareness now

Anyway, I was in town a couple of years ago and mentioned these wool figures and compared them to be like Robertson's golliwogs. Jesus, I nearly got lynched. Called for everything and initially never realised or understood what I had done.

Obviously a generation thing with no offence made.

Someone mentioned previously the word 'gay'. That has been hijacked and if brought up in general conversation you get some looks!

Pity that you now have to think so much before speaking...

Stan Schofield
96 Posted 11/01/2018 at 15:38:24
The bottom line here is that Holgate's tweets are a diversion from the cheating that goes on, which Liverpool do habitually. Not only is Lallana a cheat for that dive (and many others he's done in the past) but Klopp is a systematic cheat.

The way Klopp went apoplectic (and made a fool of himself) after the derby league game contrasts with his attempted diversion after the FA Cup game. This is the problem with the modern games, cheats like Klopp who's showmanship and histrionics are always geared towards gaining an unfair advantage. A very ugly form of gamesmanship, which goes unpunished, and therefore reeks of corruption.

Liam Reilly
97 Posted 11/01/2018 at 17:29:06
Phil (#8),

"Rush, you ugly big-nosed turncoat, kopite, Welsh bastard"

I can't have that! He did not have a big nose; he just had a small face.

Stan Schofield
98 Posted 11/01/2018 at 17:50:32
Colin @86:

Yes, there is clear bias, but despite that, they still can't win anything. At least we haven't spent anywhere near them, despite the signings in the summer being questionable, so there's a good reason for us consistently finishing 10 points (on average) below them.

At least there's a chance of us learning and progressing from the experience of the summer window, but they never seem to learn and haven't progressed. Their 'customers' are frustrated even more than us.

Charles Brewer
99 Posted 11/01/2018 at 18:20:11
I think I have found the RS's new news handling employee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdnyrzq96s
Paul O'Neill
100 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:05:23
As a gay person myself, what Mason allegedly tweeted was grossly offensive. I'm disappointed that some of my fellow Evertonians feel that discouraging these terms is somehow an affront to free speech and that ‘minority groups are more dangerous than the man on the street'. I'm unsure what that even means.

The last time I suffered homophobic abuse I offered out the knuckle dragging cretin ‘man on the street' in question, offered to rearrange his face for him and he soon backed down.

That said Mason was 15-16 at the time, has probably grown up and I don't agree with censorship. But this stuff, if you say it, should never go unchallenged in a civilised society. To compare calling someone fat or ginger (or Mancunian or scouse) with homophobic or racist abuse is not comparing like with like.

Joking aside, people don't tend to get beaten up, locked up or murdered for those things and that still goes on all over the world if you're gay or from the wrong ethnic group. And I say that as someone who lives in Manchester, and used to be a tubby kid. 😀 #coyb

Brian Williams
101 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:14:17
Paul. Salute for having the bottle to post that. Not that it should need bottle in this day and age but, you know what I mean, I hope.

ps: An Evertonian is an Evertonian, end of.

Brent Stephens
102 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:27:47
Paul #100 - excellent post.
Colin Glassar
103 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:48:41
Good on you, Paul. Racism, homophobia, misogyny etc... has no place in a modern, progressive world.
Brian Williams
104 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:52:51
Kopitism on the other hand is totally acceptable, though, Col!
Christopher Nicholls
105 Posted 11/01/2018 at 19:56:51
On topic - retroactive policing of juvenile behavior in response to a current situation, if it is not directly related to that situation, is clearly a flawed response. If Holgate was racially abused, that complaint should be treated very seriously.

Off topic - I remain optimistic that the, hopefully, inexorable path to an inclusive and supportive society that celebrates the entire diversity of human experience and where minorities feel no threat of continued physical or verbal abuse, is supported and understood by the majority of people.

On the other hand, I logged on to TW and thought I'd stumbled onto Breitbart. I hear that Bannon is looking for a new gig, maybe he can cover away games?

Let's check racism, sexism, homophobia at the door, folks, and focus on what unites... footie and EFC.

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