Column Why? David Moorcroft 12/09/2007 89comments | Jump to last I was born in Kirkby in 1956 but little did I know of the trials and tribulations that lay ahead of me. I was 10 yrs old in 1966 when my mam died and left me absolutely fucked up. My two older brothers were already crazy Evertonians who were 17 yrs and 19 years old, Before my mam died, every Saturday I would say "Where are Robert and John going, mam?" My mam would say to me, "They're going to watch Everton, lad." I would say, "Mam, why can't I go and watch Everton with them?" She would say, "You're too little, lad; there's too many people there ? 60,000 people ? you might get lost." So one week in 1966, after pestering them for weeks to take me with them, they took me to see Everton V Sunderland... 64,000-odd people there. I was sitting on my brother's shoulders in Bullens Road... I had never been so happy in all my little life! The summer of 1966 was and will always be the worst time of my life because my mam died. But what my two brothers done by taking me to watch Everton before my mam died gave me something to turn to for comfort. From that day day when my mam died, most people would say i lost the plot because i would not listen to my two brothers, I ran away from home and any kind of authority. Where did i run to? I found a mate whose mum had also died that same year, and who was also introduced to Everton at the same time as me. Dave Coey was his name. We decided the best way to cope with what we were going through was to follow Everton ? no matter where we played. We hitch-hiked all over the country at a time when they hadn't built most of the motorway network. We were running across farmers' fields in Hampshire coming back from Southampton because we were shit-scared. So that's my passion for Everton FC. I have read most of the posts on ToffeeWeb concerning the vote (I would have voted No if they would have sent it to me). My title is Why?... Why don't the club want to talk to anyone (they might have a better deal even than Tesco). Surely as business people you keep your options open? Why have the club allowed this divide to happen? Why are the people who own and run the club deaf to everyone who is just asking them to talk to anyone who has a suggestion? I don't think they realise the mistake they are making... or they don't care. People come on here and dismiss thise who voted No as if they're a piece of shit and say to them "Just get over it!" Well, it doesn't work like that. People who are passionate about anything in life will not just "get over it"... Nevermind if its something that has dominated your life more than anything else (apart from your children)... But, as soon as they are born, you start making them Toffees. So, when you see a so-called clever man being paid half-a-million quid to come to our city to move us to a smaller town and then dissapear to wherever he wants to... We will be totally screwed playing Marine and so on. Since this exclusivity crap was started the club made a statement, "We cannot talk to anyone because of the said exclusivity deal." Two weeks later, Evertonians are told "Vote for Kirkby or we're Doomed!" Then they tell us they are sending 36,000 ballot papers out; considering we only have 22,000 season ticket holders, a couple of hundred shareholders, and a couple of thousand Evertonia members... Where did the other 9,000 ballot papers go? Everything has been done so underhandedly, there has been no clarity on anything ? just how good it will be because we are getting it for next to nothing. Let me tell you, if you're getting something for nothing ? it's worth nothing! If you're getting something for next to nothing, it's worth virtually fuck all. By the way, I do wish the people who keep describing themselves as the Winning Yes voters would enter into proper dialogue instead of just dismissing anything anyone says that they don't agree with. There are a few yes voters who are excellant debaters but most just keep repeating the same rubbish. This is too big to "just get over it". The point is 60,000 every week in Goodison Park... there's more of us in this city so lets stay and fight for whats ours; build a new stadium in the city and we have the people to fill it. More people are in work in the city, the city is booming, we will fill 60,000 in our city! All we need is the commitment of the owners. Reader Comments Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Mike Hunt 1 Posted 12/09/2007 at 05:52:47 Report abuse Why? Cuz it appears we can?t afford to build the stadium we need anywhere else but Kirkby. I?d love a more central stadium, but if there was money for it it needs to be put up from somewhere. In an ideal world some Evertonian Billionaire would stump up the cash to foot the bill on a stadium that?d put those yankee redshites and other premier pretenders in the shade quick smart. It seems the world aint ideal though :-( Tom Hughes 2 Posted 12/09/2007 at 06:50:46 Report abuse Mike: Or converesly take GP upto 50k+ by building one new stand at the Parkend..... and re-roofing the rest this will cost less rhan the £30-50m we will pay for Kirkby Neil Millichip 3 Posted 12/09/2007 at 08:16:06 Report abuse Why??? Because We haven’t got the funds for a stadium in the city. Why??? Because when Everton asked the council to find a suitable site in the city they dragged their heels and bent over backwards to accommodate Our neighbours on Stanley park. Why??? did it take the announcement of the Kirkby project before alternative sites were found by LCC leader Warren Bradley and co. I would love Everton to stay close to its roots. But until someone comes up with a meaningful way of funding a stadium in the city, moving to Kirkby seems the only realistic option of keeping the club competitive. Shaun Brennan 4 Posted 12/09/2007 at 08:46:32 Report abuse Why? Because alot of people have been taking in by the propaganda and scare mongering. See things in black and white. If you see in other shades you would have voted no! Sid Dunning 5 Posted 12/09/2007 at 08:41:42 Report abuse Coming up with the funds to build a new stadium IN our City should have been a central prioity of the club’s Board of Directors.Their failure to do so is just another indication of their total incompetence.Personally,I don’t believe that Kirkby will ever happen but it takes the pressure off the shisters in charge whilst they go through the motions. Chris 6 Posted 12/09/2007 at 08:57:59 Report abuse THey have gone through all the options and the Kirkby stadium option is the best of them... Let it rest.... If you lot had got 50.000001% of the vote you would all be falling over yourselves telling everyone the Kirkby option is dead... Now you lost, you are trying desperating to pull any deal apart... Get over it, the majority that voted are happy with moving... Steve Lyth 7 Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:01:01 Report abuse I dont accept that 5000 fans have the majority say for our club Chris and this issue is not going to go away until its finnished one way or another. Chris Masey 8 Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:01:23 Report abuse What a sob story?! Get over yourself. Why! Why! Why! Crying like a baby. We live in a democracy mate, and the fans voted yes, end of. Most No voters are getting on with it, and placing trust in the board and manager. If you’re that pissed off, don’t buy a season ticket, and go and support the RS, in their swanky, pretentious, spanish piece of shit stadium. I am totally sick to the death of this Kirkby shit, and the morbid, brainless fans that can’t accept any sort of change. Michael Tracey 9 Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:00:18 Report abuse If we need to still come up with 30 million pounds even after all the Deal of The Century Krkby crap then I agree with Tom Hughes why don’t we just build up the Park End and fix up the roofing and there you go? We can stay where we belong, Tesco can well who cares what they do really? We will still have the 50k capacity not lose any of our fans and retain our Liverpool roots. Then we don’t need any partners just ourselves. No businesses go under,everyone can keep there match day rituals and The Grand Old Lady might be Grand again. Neil Millichip 10 Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:23:16 Report abuse Michael Tracey.. You cant polish a turd. Goodison Park has seen better days, restricted views and very few corporate boxes. The place wound need to be leveled to bring it up to the 21st century. Neil Pearse 11 Posted 12/09/2007 at 09:07:18 Report abuse Thanks for the article Dave, it is a voice of calm in this debate, and so prompted me to respond. I voted YES, but let me say a few things.First of all, I do not follow at all the ’get over it / move on now’ line with those who voted NO. Obviously this is something that is incredibly important, and is still hurting, and it is not going to magically go away. Anyway, it is not for me to tell anyone else what they should or should not be feeling.All I ask from the NO voters is that, likewise, they accept that YES voters are intelligent people who feel passionately about this subject too, and have acted in the best interests of the club they love as they see it. All the accusations about who are the ’true Evertonians’ (from both sides) sound like children in a playground, it’s embarrassing, and prevents any meaningful discussion or progress. If we weren’t true Evertonians we wouldn’t spend our time on this (excellent) site. End of.Secondly, on Keith and Bill and the ’Everton management’. I think they deserve huge credit for giving the fans a vote on the move (no other major club has ever done so), but, boy, have they cocked-up the communications around all this big time! Personally, I don’t know why they weren’t much more straightforward about stating the case for Kirkby (only Terry Leahy did so), because I think in the circumstances it is a very good case. However, I am much more of a believer in the cock-up than the conspiracy theory of history. They are very far from perfect, but I think the view that Keith and Bill are somehow evil geniuses only in this for their own financial gain is self-evidently ridiculous, and is completely ruining any possibility of a sensible debate. Again, we could well do with the end of the ’evil Bill’ line of argument - it takes us nowhere. Finally, I wanted to endorse Neil Millichip’s excellent post above as the shortest and best statement of the YES case I have seen. (And this is not just because us Neils need to stick together!)In essence, those of who voted YES did so because we do not want our club to be left behind and become non-competitive in a decaying Goodison. And, given that the club have been looking for years for other alternatives and have not found any, we are reluctantly but wholly convinced that there aren’t any which can now be reliably delivered in the timeframe required. We have no faith in the last minute options trumped up by LCC, essentially to save their own political faces. I support Everton management at this stage in not getting sidetracked into discussions with people who obviously cannot deliver. We believe that Bill and Keith would ’keep Everton in our city’ if they could (why on earth wouldn’t they?), but that this has not proven possible. And we also believe that Kirkby is scouse and is Liverpool, and we are therefore not abandoning our historic roots in going there.Hopefully, Dave, this is what you see as ’entering into proper debate’ (it is certainly what I intended). Of course, I do not expect NO voters to agree with what I have just said, but I do ask that they respect that this is a view which has been thought about long and hard, and is held passionately by someone who is genuinely concerned for the future of our club if we do not move from Goodison in the near future. eddy elton 12 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:02:06 Report abuse We keep hearing aboutlost revenue while Goodison park is developed. Could we not groundshare withe RS for one season. This would give us a year to redevelop. Joe C 13 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:23:21 Report abuse Eddy Elton:Yes that would be very philanthropic and humanist of the RS to let that happen so their competition (us) builds up their finances.Would be exactly in character with them, don’t you think?Or do they not get a say in the matter? North Sea Blue 14 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:21:58 Report abuse We could even move back to Anfield for a couple of season’s after their new Airport Terminal is built. Wouldn’t it be great if we were the first and last title winners at Anfield. Dave 15 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:22:42 Report abuse Another posting written with the heart. David - we won’t be getting a ground worth virtually fuck all, we will be contributing a small amount to a ground hopefully worthy of a premiership club I would have loved to stay at GP or to have moved to Kings Dock. I live in Kirkby and really don’t want us to move here, however I have more faith in what comes out of the Everton boardroom than what comes out of the LCC, so I voted yes. That was my vote and no-one elses.Tom - Will putting a new stand at the park end get rid of the obstructed views? Will it give better facilities to supporters everywhere in the ground? Steve Lyth 16 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:48:45 Report abuse Massey, you get over yourself, you speak for no one but yourself with regard to your rancid bile over this issue.If anyone is brainless its you lad.Most NO voters will see this thing through to the end irrespective of your take on the matter and in the end we will do what we want.Why dont you go and support the RS you have got the gob for the job. Christine in Blue 17 Posted 12/09/2007 at 10:28:22 Report abuse Hang on guys, whilst we argue the toss about who is right and why, Rome is burning. Actually its not Rome its our club.The FACT is we DO need to have a serious plan for the future development of Everon FC including ground location and development. Its should form PART of the strategy and not become the only part of it.We could argue that Goodison is the right or wrong location, we could argue that the present capacity could keep us afloat for the next 3 years, we could argue about Kings Dock, Stanley Park, Scotland Road or even how the heck we are supposed to make it all work.The only FACT is we haven’t got a Strategic PLan and we haven;t been given any options. How can we evaluate any management decision when we don;t know where they are going. All we are left with is emotion. Our passion. Our gut feeling. By voting Yes we may have done our club a huge disservice, one that we may forever have to live with. But the choice, the vote, was flawed because there was no alternative solutions offered, no plan for the future, nothing to base a reasoned decision on.Coming from Liverpool myself, born and breed in blue, I went to my first match where Albert Dunlop saved a penalty with his legs, I think it was against West Ham or Burnley, around 62 63 saeson..I love Goodison Park with all its bad spots and lack of corporate hospitality. Its called CHARACTER and SOUL. But business rules the heart. But GOOD Business must justify decisions and explore all options. BAD business just goes for the "too good to be true" deals. Its not the best deal we have been offered, its the best deal thats been sold to us. The only deal the board wanted.Just because they have a YES vote does NOT mean the deal is a good one. They are making the cardinal sin of all business, ignoring common sense.Why? Keep asking... ryan crest 18 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:01:29 Report abuse We can’t afford to build in the city and redeveloping Goodison would be like putting lippy on a bulldog.We had a vote on the subject of the move. The majority voted YES and the continuation of the NO campaign is cynical and disingenuous. If the vote had been NO, would it be fair for the club to turn around and say - oh it doesn’t matter what the majorty want - we’re pressing ahead with the move nonetheless? There’d be uproar. murf 19 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:01:42 Report abuse I didnt get a vote - I live too far away these days - but if I had I’d a voted NO. It’ll be a sad day when we leave Goodison Park, where I virtually lived in the seventies and early eighties, but after my original despair at the vote I accept life moves on and wherever we end up I will still attend when I can and support what is left of Everton FC (the name???).I just hope I am not sat next to anyone like the yes men up this list!Murf Neil Fitz 20 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:01:26 Report abuse The garbage that comes out of the YES voters mouths does my cap in!!! Got all the answers haven’t ya’s just like them pair ov nutend’s Kenwright and Wyness!! Thousands will be lost forever once this move goes ahead end ov!!! Michael Tracey 21 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:03:38 Report abuse Neil Millichip. That was a bit uncalled for don’t you think? We don’t have funds for a stadium in the City? Well then how in hell are we gonna pay for the 30-50 million pound shortfall in the Kirkby proposal. The Krkby Stadium is not free the sooner people realise this the better! We will be in more debt and walking into the unknown! At least if we stay at Goodison at least we know the Fans will still be here! Tom Hughes seems to think that this is possible! He has done plenty of work on the very subject! At least we could look at it! ah thats right the board already have.(hahaha)I would rather we stayed at Goodison than go to Kirkby any day. Anthony Jaras 22 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:35:45 Report abuse Ryan Crest;’PUTTING LIPPY ON A BULLDOG’Must be the greatest statement of all time, I am gonna use that one Ryan, with your permission of course. Steve Ryan 23 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:29:15 Report abuse Neil Pearce says, "I support Everton management at this stage in not getting sidetracked in discussions with people who OBVIOUSLY cannot deliver". Can you please explain this comment Neil, bearing in mind that Bestway have yet to submit their final proposals. Is this further conjecture on your part, do you have a crystal ball or do you have inside information that we are not privy to. Andy 24 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:46:24 Report abuse i’ve just seen leaked pictures of the kirkby stadium and im sorry but its simply not good enough, it looks cheap as and i really don’t know how people can be happy with it, this stadium can and should look like one of the best grounds in the country, instead were getting a stadium thats getting built in the cheapest way it possibly can.don’t you think we deserve a better stadium than whats on offer because in my eyes the kirkby stadium is a million miles from what we deserve. Gerard Madden 25 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:57:52 Report abuse The only and I mean ONLY sad aspect of this whole move to Kirkby situation is my thoughts of the dear old lady, our historic home of 115 years but those thoughts would apply wherever we moved to.I think it’s always important to remind people that it was the fans in a democratic ballot that was looked after by the highly reputable ERS who are taking us to Kirkby - no one else, no one was forced to vote ’yes’. The result was that 60% of us want this move to Kirkby, only 40% don’t want to move (for a plethora of reasons) and there were 11,000 voters who don’t care where the club play - those are the factoids of the situation no matter how difficult they are to take in for some. Rob F 26 Posted 12/09/2007 at 11:59:13 Report abuse The garbage that comes out of the NO voters mouths does my cap in!!! Got all the answers haven?t ya?s just no money or way of delivering!! The club will be lost forever if this move doen’t go ahead. end ov!!! Andy 27 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:09:29 Report abuse gerardas i understand it you are a yes voter, im not gonna have a pop at any person who voted yes because you voted for what you believed to be the right decision, but are you completely satisfied with the quality of the stadium? seriously it looks cheap as any stadium i’ve ever seen, don’t you think that we deserve better? MCB 28 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:09:41 Report abuse Is anyone else totally pissed off with this topic? Christine in Blue 29 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:08:15 Report abuse Gerard: Its hardly a democratic vote when the only question asked is based on a singular option.Do you want a move to a new stadium in Kirby or not? Or not What?? Stay at Goodison, pursue other options?? The question was asked under a poor premise. But thats where we are, we didn;t have a choice of options or questions to vote on.All I am saying is don;t delude yourselves into thinking we had options. Kirby was chosen in the absense of another choice. (No Plan B)Oh Yee of little brain.... Mr Wyness... We may end up in Kirby, but the board owe it to the past and future generations of supporters who have made this club what it is, to consider all options. CONSIDER other proposals with an open mind. EMPLOY an independent party to assess best options and recommendations. Cut out the emotion and do it properly adn make the call armed with all the facts. Gerard Madden 30 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:21:07 Report abuse Christine in Blue - there was a clear alternative to voting ’yes’ and that was amazingly enough ’no’. If the vote was ’no’ then we wouldn’t be going to Kirkby, we would stay at Goodison and wait and see what developed over the next few months and years. Simple as that. Rob Fountain 31 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:21:54 Report abuse Christine - only after the vote was announced have the LCC and Bestway made a few half arsed attempts to give us pie in the sky alternative. the board have put together a package of a new stadium, part financed by outside investement, and asked for an opinion on that. could they have looked into more options, and could they have added more questions on the voting form? possibly. but seeing as the MAJORITY of fans are happy with this stadium option, then their decision has been vindicated.Well done BK and KW - you?ve delivered a stadium the fans want Andy McKenzie 32 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:45:09 Report abuse rob f, bk and kw have delivered the cheapest looking stadium in english football.i?ll watch us in kirkby if thats were we end up but theres no denying that the stadium looks bog standard. Rob F 33 Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:10:22 Report abuse Andy, i’ve not yet seen that many pictures of it, so please point me in the direction of any - did someone in this post say there are new ones out?If it does turn out to be pap, then I’ll be happy to revise my post above. UP TO THIS POINT however (i.e. prior to final design and build) I think all has gone well. Chris Masey 34 Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:06:57 Report abuse MCB - yes very much so. However, I must apologise for my last outrage above, I was simply reacting to this topic in particular, as I am so frustrated with it. Please do not accept my above comments on the mailbag. Andy McKenzie 35 Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:18:14 Report abuse robthere on the nsno website, there a slight improvement on the night vision shots but it looks really cheap. John Allison 36 Posted 12/09/2007 at 13:44:44 Report abuse Let me say now I was one of those who didnt vote yet had my ballot paper and I am sick of people slating those who didnt vote. I had 3 choices, yes, no or dont vote. I chose not to vote simple as and I guess most who didnt vote did so more because had they then it would have been a YES rather than a NO. Gerard Madden 37 Posted 12/09/2007 at 14:02:39 Report abuse John Allison - outragous! despicable! didn’t you know that all those 11,000 non-voters would have voted ’no’ if they bothered to vote. You must alter your position pronto! Neil McKinney 38 Posted 12/09/2007 at 12:23:21 Report abuse Keep on debating by all means guys, but I am sorry, this article brings nothing to the table!No offence David, but you have done nothing but repeat questions that were raised and debated months ago.And so follow all the usual people, saying all the same things, yada yada yada, blah blah blah. You will not find the answers on here, believe me I’ve been looking for some time.I did think that the continued debate was a good thing and (obviously from this post) I am always looking out for the stadium articles, but this article, along with many of the recent ones, have put me off as there is no progress being made at all. You will not change each others minds with these arguments. There are even identicle posts under different names?!I will say two things about the way I feel though...Groundshare - NO F***ING WAY!GP - Love the idea, but we need to do more than increase the capacity and put new roofs on. Come on, we need better facilities and something that will generate revenue. People keep going on about how we are not going to fill Kirkby, so how is expanding GP to 50,000 and putting new roofs on it, going to solve our problems? All for the same cost as the supposed contribution to Kirkby? Well maybe I’m nuts, but despite my reservations about Kirkby, I would rather contribute £30m to a new stadium than on patching up GP. If it’s not going to be a proper redevelopment then I don’t see it benefiting the club in anyway. Pouring money into a hole.No offence to anyone who still feels strongley about this issue, but it feels like we are chasing our tail at the moment. Neil Millichip 39 Posted 12/09/2007 at 14:21:53 Report abuse Michael Tracey..The answer to your Question "Well then how in hell are we gonna pay for the 30-50 million pound shortfall in the Kirkby proposal..... Selling Goodison Park and the naming rights would help fund the £50m.http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/kirkby/articles/article.asp?submissionID=2354 Neil Pearse 40 Posted 12/09/2007 at 14:39:37 Report abuse Steve Ryan - I do not think they (LCC / Bestway) can deliver because: (a) the Loop site is intrinsically unsuitable for a modern football stadium; (b) this is transparently a last ditch face-saving device from the LCC, who so far have delivered nothing for us; (c) Bestway are a small cash and carry, and do not represent an adequate commercial partner for a club of Everton’s stature; (d) after several months there is not even a basic outline proposal as to how this might be funded (here I am not asking for detailed numbers, just some very basic ideas about this might work). Neil Fitz 41 Posted 12/09/2007 at 14:38:11 Report abuse Rob F the people who run our club have NO idea or NO money that’s the bottom line and they are the sole reason why this pityful situation has arose. In any other kind ov business these balloons would have been lashed years ago!! But certain Everton fans seem to be content with having a story telling chairman(we’ll be here till Christmas writing down the whoppers he’s come out with over the years) who, hasn’t got a carrot to his name and is the man who is saying to every Everton fan, f*ck your 130 years of tradition and the club’s home this is my way and we’re doing it my way like or lump it!!Don’t even insult my intelligence by saying "we all had a vote on it" and "it’s a democracy" Gerard Madden 42 Posted 12/09/2007 at 15:43:05 Report abuse To quote Neil Fitz - ’Don?t even insult my intelligence by saying "we all had a vote on it" and "it?s a democracy".No I won’t insult your intelligence mate, i’ll say some soothing words that you will no doubt approve of - 60% of fans voted NO to Kirkby, only 40% of fans voted YES and those 11,000 who didn’t care enough to vote? They would have ALL voted NO - That’s it the end of Kirkby. Thommo Gibbons 43 Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:03:58 Report abuse I really don?t care if you?ve voted or not, if you?ve got something reasonable to say then say it.Can anyone tell me if Terry Leahy has ever considered a Tesco buy out of Everton? We might not want to be known as the Tesco Team but does it make more financial sense to Tesco (and probably Everton) in the long run?You see, there we go again with those never before asked or answered questions, that little bit of clarity of purpose that seems completely lacking from our current leaders. Tony Ateman 44 Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:01:51 Report abuse Where on the NSNO website are the latest graphics of the new stadium? Can you give us a link? Tony Ateman 45 Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:39:56 Report abuse Found it!http://nsno.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?311032 Neil Pearse 46 Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:43:27 Report abuse I am stunned by one thing here, and that is all the complaints at Bill about the vote.Tell me if any of the following is wrong. He gave us a vote. He didn’t have to, and no other club has done likewise over their ground moves. There was a very real vote - if the vote had been a majority of voters voting NO, then all negotiations regarding Kirkby would have stopped.Actually, for all the cries of "propaganda", in my opinion Everton management put together a piss poor job of communicating around Kirkby, with the only well-stated case coming from Terry Leahy.Guys, I can understand you not wanting to go to Kirkby, and I can understand you being unhappy that the vote went against what you wanted. But unhappy that there was a vote? Neil Fitz 47 Posted 12/09/2007 at 16:38:18 Report abuse Gerard Madden the stat’s are there in black and white for all too see mate but the people eligable to vote were carefully selected by the board with the knowledge they would come back with a majority "Yes" vote!! The conduct out of Wyness(done a boss job of the mighty Aberdeen’s finances) was nothing short of disgraceful and Kenwright nowadays hardly put’s his fat head in front of the camera’s coz you know, and he know’s he’s bound to come out with another stormer to add to the list.Kenwright has got one man to thank that he’s still in a job at Goodison and that’s Moyes. Neil Pearse 48 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:01:34 Report abuse My fellow Neil (Fitz). If I read you correctly, you are saying that the Board "carefully selected" 36,000 people so that there would be a YES vote. I assume you cannot possibly mean this? John Lloyd 49 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:06:56 Report abuse Everything written about this debate has been conjecture or bullshit and people re-acting to the likes of. Its worse than a fucking general election where politicans spit out lies or "exaggerations" to impress people to win a vote only to go on & not deliver.....EVER.This is the same, Everton have done business like 8 yr old children, no plan B, constant changing of figures (all projected anyway) and writing off any other proposal without proper & thorough investigation!!The LCC have been even worse, dragging thier heels over offering land, that lying twat Bradley in the papers every two minutes waving his season card about. (I’d knock fuck outta him if I saw him at match).All I want is facts not opinion, facts that can be backed up. a) Who is paying what for Kirkby project? b) Explore ALL other possible site & give reasons why, if found to be not feasible.c) List all voters of vote and results because if earlier post is true & we have only 22,000 season ticket holders, 2/3 thousand Evertonia members & a couple of hundred shareholders then WHO THE FUCK ELSE GOT THEM???????My head is battered with this, I voted no, because although the ’FACT’ remains that we do need to leave Goodison (kills me writing that) I dont believe that Kirkby is best option, never mind only option. There is something not right with Wyness whoring the project, if it was the deal of the century you wouldnt need to sell it as much as he has!!1-0 saturday, Yak 1st goal at goodison. Gerard Madden 50 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:31:49 Report abuse To quote John Lloyd - ’b) Explore ALL other possible site & give reasons why, if found to be not feasible’.But but but the club have given public explanations why GP and the loop are unsuitable, they’ve used their own experts but some of the ’no’ voters don’t want to believe them. I don’t see what more our club can do to that minority of the minority who continue to support such small sites and don’t believe a word our club says. Neil Pearse 51 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:33:32 Report abuse John, as I understand it, those who were elegible to vote were season tickets holders and Evertonia members FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS. (Correct me someone if I am wrong.) Quite easy to see how that could get to 36,000, given that of course it’s not exactly the same people who are season ticket holders or Evertonia members every year. Neil McKinney 52 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:26:48 Report abuse Hi Neils - I thought I’d join in with the rest of you.The conspiracy theories are rife on this site at the moment.I find it hard to believe that the board would be capable of such manipulation of the vote (especially as we are persistently told that they are all morons). Anyway, all they had to do was not give a vote if they were so desperate to get the move. I don’t buy the crap about them relinquishing responsibility to the fans by giving them a vote as it is clear to see by the posts on this sight it has not succeeded in lifting responsibility/blame from them at all.Anyone? Neil Pearse 53 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:45:38 Report abuse Thanks Neil! Never seen so many Neils in one place before. Do you think more Neils support Everton than other football teams? Should we form our own subgroup? Neil McKinney 54 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:50:49 Report abuse Neil Satis Nisi Optimum! lol Rob Fountain 55 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:46:00 Report abuse Neil McKinney - spot on.And the NO camp need to seperate reason from emotion, otherwise they?re just gonna go round in circles. I mean ?saying BK is an idiot and got us into this mess? only works if you think we are in a mess. You may not want to move from GP, you may not want to move from the city, but that is personal opinion not a sign that the club is in a mess. On the contrary, we have a new stadium on the way paid for by outside investment, and the best squad for years. BK has done well in my book.1-0 sat too. aj to slot it home Tom Hughes 56 Posted 12/09/2007 at 17:23:09 Report abuse I couldn’t clarify my points before about redevelopment of GP, I literally only had 2 mins. It is very possible to get GP upto 48-50k seats by building just one new stand at the Parkend. This could also be partly funded by an enabling scheme at the Parkend. The city planners and Trevor Skempton the consultant Architect for Grosvenor agree on this, they actually believe this might be achieveable in its entirety. For 48k seats the new Park end would be 14,000 seats. This would cost between £16m and £25m dependent on the format. (ie. double decker or single tier, and the specification of fittings, concourses, lounges etc). The Mainstand could be remodelled as per my outline report creating a full executive tier under the Top Balcony, with a new roof. This would result in zero obstructions on this side. For the two classic Leitch stands new roofs would reduce upper tier obstructions to zero. Reprofile the Paddock-lower Bullens into one stand going up as far as the second row of columns, this will reduce the number of obstructions in this stand by half, and the filled pathway at the back of the paddock will make up for most of the loss of seats at the rear of the lower Bullens, and of course all these new views will be unobstructed. New roofs and remodelling for the 3 old stands would probably cost £15-20m. Remaining obstructed views? Make these half price to allow some of those who currently can’t afford to go to get in. Only sell them after all other tickets, or on the match day, I’ll guarantee the queue would be around the corner for them. But the thing is they will have been reduced in number by over 80%, at very little cost, and we would have the the most historic stadium in the world. The fabric of these structures is solid, and massively over-engineered. Rangers have preserved and added to their Leitch stand, and it is the most notable stand in their ground. LFC are currently bending over backwards to inject more character into their new stadium by highlighting the new Kop and building individual stands..... we would have the real thing. In the future if demand was to rise, the Upper Bullens could be expanded into the street behind, there are no serious planning restrictions, likewise, the new Park end could be continued around to the mainstand side, by bridging this road, again Trevor Skempton cannot see any serious planning restrictions. This could all be done incrimentally, and who knows perhaps that sugar daddy might arrive in the meantime, or we might start winning things, I’m not sure which is most probable. The main point being that 48-50k seats can be achieved at little cost, some of the rest is optional and dependent on other factors. Andy McKenzie 57 Posted 12/09/2007 at 18:13:32 Report abuse some interesting points there tom, if theres any way goodison can be redeveloped then it should be done, but the question is would or are they willing to do this? bk and kw are hell bent on getting to kirkby and they seem not to want to listen to any alternatives. Neil McKinney 58 Posted 12/09/2007 at 18:08:39 Report abuse Tom - Ok, you’ve got me listening. I’m always intrigued by GP talk.But as I’ve posted previously, what about the corporate stuff and the facilities etc. Can we improve them? Can we tap into some other revenue streams once we’ve made these modifications? The costs you mention don’t seem to be negligible, so if we are to invest that money in GP, will we be able to recoup it? We would have no partner or investor in the GP renovation.Of course I don’t expect you to just pull these answers out of the air mate, but I am always ready to hear the GP alternative.Are people still working on this option (obviously the club aren’t)? Jersey Blue 59 Posted 12/09/2007 at 19:27:02 Report abuse This sort of tiresome nonsense is EXACTLY the reason why I’ve only visited this site once this month. Before, I used to be entertained by well written pieces about Everton’s history, statistics and performances (both financial and football).Now 9/10’s of the articles are about Kirby and feelings. I don’t want to spend time reading about peoples childhoods, I want answers, options or at the very least, somekind of hint at when Kirby gets the green light. I appreciate the gravity of the issue... but surely now, it has been done to death. (A slow and very painful death at that).Why spend our time arguing over Bestway, KEIOC, LCC, "The management". If you have no input into the relocation of Everton FC, keep quiet on the matter.The only FACTS at present are: 10% of matchday Evertonians (which is Statistically viable) voted, with the majority voting YES. Other than this... there are no other options as of yet. Maybe in months, years, decades there will be other options... but can we rely on maybes? Colin Riley 60 Posted 12/09/2007 at 19:02:33 Report abuse Nearly all the yes voters are woolyback out of towners and wouldnt give a toss if we moved to prescott, rainhill,scem or st hellens even formby.Most would bore you with their self righteous waffle.Most of them think they?re more educated than you and no voters just voted with there hearts and not the head.They miss the point completly.We did vote with our hearts but only because our heads told us to.Personally.my heart sinks when i think of Kirkby and our shed at thebottom of the garden.And it sinks even more when i think of me next door neighbours .My heart also sinks when i think of the propaganda used by our custodians running my club,and how we are so skint we have to bend over backwards to tescos for a sub.But it sinks even more when i think me neighbour is loaded and can buy what he wants in a park that used to belong to us.In general my heart sinks for the future of my football club in ten years time and that is why my head says no to any proposalls this club give us right now.When this club gives us something along the lines of say Kings dock we wont need any debate the head and heart will be as one.Unfortunately the club dont care what we want but they will give us what the think we need.And they used the woolyback out of towners to get it for them.If you dont believe me check with the electoral reform society where the voting papers are at and youl get your answer.Its free for the public if you ask.Thank god the teams on the up,but in a way its diverted attention away from the biggest issue this clubs faced in a hundred years ,and we let an out of work couldnt act anyway phoney to do it for us and a tight jock sidekick looking for a brucie bonus.They may get what they want but they?l never rest in peace i can promise you that.EVERTONIANS TILL WE DIE,GOD BLESS Rich Jones 61 Posted 12/09/2007 at 23:08:04 Report abuse im sick to death of all the yes voters reminding us of this so called democratic vote, where people with season tickets had no vote and the very people who wanted a yes vote ie Kenwright and Wyness controlled the data going out, give me a brake you niave fools I wont stop fighting until its done and like ive said before youve given Kenwright what wanted release from blame when it all goes wrong. Neil Millichip 62 Posted 12/09/2007 at 23:06:25 Report abuse Some good idea’s Tom.. The problem i see are we would still have restricted views. There should be no restricted views in any modern stadium. You also fail to mention how long the redevelopment of Goodison Park Take? Gerard Madden 63 Posted 12/09/2007 at 23:25:17 Report abuse Just thank your lucky stars ’rich jones’ that we got the vote, in no way did the club have to give us a vote and it’s a unique thing in football that a club chairman has delegated such a major decision to the fans - so well done Bill. Tom Hughes 64 Posted 13/09/2007 at 00:04:49 Report abuse Neil Millichip: Well, it all depends on how far you want to take the redevelopment. The scheme I modelled had no obstructions. The one I described above would only have a few hundred. Is that a fair price to pay for preserving 2 really historic and iconic stands? You cannot buy nor reproduce what they or the site represents. There will also be significantly more totally unobstructed seats than at present. If the old stands are combined with 1 or 2 new structures, the combination could form a dramatic contrast that will probably not exist anywhere else in Football given the quality and importance of these stands, what price/value would we put on that? I guess it’s down to personal taste and opinion. Personally, I feel there’s a lot of mileage in this approach, because I think if done well the result could be breathtaking, and I don’t think that could ever be used to describe the Kirkby proposal. If these options where drawn up and presented to a similar standard to the ones we’ve seen for Kirkby I am sure it would turn even more heads, and the figures are getting closer. Then it perhaps comes down to how much people prefer the relative locations and the pros and cons for each of them. In terms of how long it would take. A new Parkend could be built in one close season and a bit. Half of it could be in commission for the first game..... we could have 48,000 seats for next season. The other stuff could be done in subsequent close seasons. I Illustrated how premier seats, and exec seats could be included in these structures in my write up. If planning permission for a big enough enabler at the Parkend could be secured, this first stand could cost the club less than £10m, and our target capacity would be realised. Rich Jones 65 Posted 13/09/2007 at 00:34:29 Report abuse It was a sham of a vote Gerard. Thommo Gibbons 66 Posted 13/09/2007 at 06:06:05 Report abuse Tom Hughes; I?ve been reading your submissions on improvements to Goodison for what seems years, now. I still find them fascinating reading and, in all honesty, I would dearly love to see out my football where it has always been seen. But like so many others I tend to find your figures a bit off putting in that they are suggesting that the whole ground could be improved and modernised over five years at the cost of a semi-decent footballer each year, and with little or no loss in the number attending at that time. Especially, when opposed by Kenwright?s flat refusal that anything like this would be even remotely possible. And so many can?t understand why it can?t be demonstrated one way or another to the satisfaction of both parties. Probably just the naivete of my dotage..... Chris Taggart 67 Posted 13/09/2007 at 07:32:32 Report abuse Colin, Who made you king of the evertonians?i was born and brought up in wavertree and now live in speke and voted yes, am i a woolyback out of towner?so if the design for the new stadium was the kings dock one but still in kirkby you would have been ok with that?The current design is adaptable and can be expanded on, it will not be the finished stadium, but will be 1) better in terms of facilites(than what we have now)2)serve as a foundation for a better stadium in the futureEvertonians till we die (upon the proviso that your opinion of what an Evertonian is, is in agreement with Colin Riley)br /> Brian Wolf 68 Posted 13/09/2007 at 09:44:32 Report abuse Colin Riley - Foxtrot Oscar. Neil McKinney 69 Posted 13/09/2007 at 10:08:39 Report abuse Colin Riley - What are you on about?By your logic, there are more season ticket holders and Evertonia members (the people who had the vote) from "out of town" than there are from "in the town".What a load of balls. By all means argue against Kirkby, but flogging this woolyback, out of town crap is insulting to all Evertonians, wooly or otherwise.As Brian said before FO! Neil Fitz 70 Posted 13/09/2007 at 10:31:22 Report abuse Neil Pearce 36000 is a very small percentage of our total fanbase in the UK let alone in Liverpool. Now without sounding condescending i would say that the majority of that 36000 can afford a seaon ticket every season for the last 3 years. I do believe these supporters are not in the same bracket as the thousands of match day going fans who by my guess are ordinary working class people who can’t offord but would love a season ticket.As we have one of the highest percentage of fans that come from the city that the club was founded from(I think Blackburn in the top flight are the only club that has a higher percentage) this would have been a matter that our board would have been fully aware of and that’s why they never gave these fans a vote in my opinion coz they would have told them to shove Kirkby up there you know what.It really is a shame that a lot of these fans whose families laid the foundations of this club never had an opportunity to have a say in it’s future people who have hitchhiked on motorways on a cold midweek night to go to place’s like Swindon and Bristol City in the league cup all for the love of the blue’s. It’s these people who i fear will be lost for good our club’s backbone!! Chris Taggart 71 Posted 13/09/2007 at 14:19:57 Report abuse Neil Fitz, what an emotive picture you paint about the poor regular match goers cruley denied a vote even though their families laid the foundation of this club. Almost had me in tears, and then i remember such stalwart members of our fandom couldn't even be arsed to buy an Evertonia membership giving them such benifits as1 week ticket priority period to ensure you are first in line to purchase home Premiership tickets.Free entry to Everton Reserves and Ladies home fixtures.Free membership to our Away Travel Club (worth £5).and would have given them a vote all for the princly sum of 20 quid.If you can afford a ticket for the game on a regular basis then you can afford for a membership. There had to be some criteria set for those eligable to vote or would you rather we were an autonomous collective? Neil Pearse 72 Posted 13/09/2007 at 14:37:57 Report abuse All you guys complaining about the vote frankly just make yourself look stupid, and undermine the NO case.The Board did not need to give us a vote. No other club ever has. 36,000 people got a vote. These were season ticket holders and Evertonia members for the last three years - a perfectly sensible way of giving the vast majority of our core support the vote (without also including people who rarely attend). If over 50% had voted against Kirkby, we would not be going (i.e. the fans had a very realistic opportunity of over-ruling the recommendation of the Board). The vote was conducted by the highly reputable ERS, and was in no way rigged.What on earth is your problem? Neil Fitz 73 Posted 13/09/2007 at 14:58:41 Report abuse Chris Taggart they can’t afford a ticket on a regular basis that’s the whole point. I know loads of fans who have to pick and chose their matches beacuase certain things in life dictate that to them like having a family and paying for food etc. But what the f*ck we’ll just sacrifice all of that for the b*llocks that you have quoted above because we all have a crystal ball don’t we and we all new 3 years ago that our chairman and his cronies were gonna have the kek’s right off us with this vote.Tony Marsh came out with a quote the other day that a lot of Evertonians have become tit’s nowaday’s and i’m starting to think he’s right.As for your sarcastic comment of nearly being in tears, you’ll know all about that when your sitting in a half empty stadium in Kirkby and you’ll have them 15000+(Massive percentage of Everton’s support) to thank for that. My guess is they are mostly woolybacks like you with a fair wedge in their pocket everyweek. Neil Pearse 74 Posted 13/09/2007 at 15:31:16 Report abuse Actually Neil Fitz, you didn’t need a crystal ball to know there would be a vote - Kenwright has been clear there would be a vote for years.But what exactly are you asking for? That the vote should have been open to anyone who wanted to vote? That ballot papers should have been handed to anyone who attended a game at the ground? That the vote should have been given to everyone except those who can afford a season ticket? That the vote should have only gone to those living in Liverpool? That there shouldn’t have been a vote at all?What? Neil McKinney 75 Posted 13/09/2007 at 15:37:47 Report abuse Keep digging Fitzy Neil Fitz 76 Posted 13/09/2007 at 15:48:13 Report abuse Neil Pearse moving out of Liverpool shouldn’t have been an option. I still can’t believe to this day it was even considered.This situation has arisen because of a incompetant Chairman end of story. He’s been on the board during Everton’s most trajic comedies and this stadium b*llock’s just about cap’s it off for me. It’s still not as good as his shout to James Beattie when he signed saying "You could be the next Dixie Dean"!! Just think you halfwits are trusting that clown. Good Luck!!! Neil Pearse 77 Posted 13/09/2007 at 16:11:31 Report abuse Thanks for the good luck wishes Neil. However, since we are currently third in the table, in Europe again, and have the best squad we’ve had for twenty years, it doesn’t look like we’ll be needing it. Neil Fitz 78 Posted 13/09/2007 at 16:42:46 Report abuse Neil Pearse all down to a good manager that is. Steve Lyth 79 Posted 13/09/2007 at 16:40:28 Report abuse Mr Pearse, I can assure you even as a Yes voter, that Everton will always require a fair proportion of luck given the state of the modern game and the future of it to come. Gerard Madden 80 Posted 13/09/2007 at 16:51:31 Report abuse Neil Fitz - Bill Kenwright is not perfect by any means but then again no one is, he’s been a terrific chairman for this club and i’m sure he will be for quite a few years to come - just look at the state of the club at this moment in time, sitting pretty in the higher reaches of the premier league, about to embark on a European adventure, just made our record signing, new stadium and don’t forget Bill made his most important signing of all in the magical signing of David Moyes as our manager. When you consider the RS are about to have £500M of debt put upon them by a couple of yanks then good ol’ Uncle Bill doesn’t seem quite as bad after all does he? I haven’t been this happy about my clubs prospects for a good future for 20 odd years. Neil Fitz 81 Posted 13/09/2007 at 17:41:04 Report abuse Gerard Madden all the things good at the club have been down to Moyes’s talent as a manager!!! It’s not Kenwrights doing. I’d say a weaker character would have walked years ago having Kenwright as your Chairman coz Moyes had no support for years and still i think he doesn’t get enough now. My anger is not vented at YES voter’s it’s vented at him and them oaf’s he has with him on the board for putting our club in this situation.If the move goes ahead i’ll be devestated. Neil Pearse 82 Posted 13/09/2007 at 18:19:27 Report abuse It does seem that in the end what drives a lot of the NO voters is extreme anger and hostility towards Bill Kenwright. And I suppose a lot of us YES voters just don’t get it. I certainly don’t.Not that we don’t understand the problems in the past - King’s Dock, NTL, Fortress Fund etc. - but they don’t seem to justify the extreme level of hatred. And most of these things are now pretty far in the past, so maybe Bill is learning. And Bill also has a lot on the ’plus’ side of the ledger - replacing Chairman Johnson, bringing in Moyes, finding money for Johnson, Yakubu and the rest, and giving the fans a vote on the move.And when you compare him with the scum at some other clubs (I think we all know which clubs and Chairmen we are thinking of), it really does seem hard to hate Bill THAT much. But - obviously not. I don’t think many YES voters think Kenwright (or Wyness for that matter) are in any way perfect. I certainly don’t. But one of the big divides in the fan base seems to be grounded in the extreme antipathy to Bill felt by a section of the NO vote. Michael Tracey 83 Posted 14/09/2007 at 00:10:44 Report abuse Bill Kenwright is hopeless. Keith Wyness is waiting for a big bonus. Is Gerard and Neil Pearse the same person I wonder? There should never of been a vote if this really was the "Deal of the Century". I think you will find that the vote is the reason for such division now. The vote is probably the stupiest thing that BK has done in his whole time as Chairman of this great club. Neil Pearse 84 Posted 14/09/2007 at 08:55:02 Report abuse Michael, your extreme and irrational hatred is just what I was talking about. Where on earth did you get it from? Kenwright’s team is third in the Premiership - but he is hopeless. The Wyness big bonus claim has no basis whatsoever. This just makes you look deranged. Michael Tracey 85 Posted 14/09/2007 at 09:09:21 Report abuse Neil, never said I hated either of them! (twisting words again) Just don’t believe Kenwright is the hero that you make him out to be. I think he is hopeless, incompetant and needs to go, so if thats irrational then I’m irrational then. You must be deranged if you don’t think that Billy is getting a big handout from this deal. I know Everton is third in the Premiership, I suppose Kenwright picks the team now does he? So what is the latest goss coming from the Bill Kenwright Fan Club Website then? Im sorry if I don’t agree with you, we can’t all be big no it alls like yourself. As I have stated before I will be more rational as you put it when Your Mates on the board give concrete details of what our Club is in for. But thats right they dont exist yet do they? Neil Pearse 86 Posted 14/09/2007 at 09:28:10 Report abuse Michael, Bill is not my hero. I have actually posted on this site that I think he no longer has the money for a top Premiership club and should move on. I have criticised Wyness and the general running of the club on quite a number of occasions (most recently for example on the mismanagement of JJB). I know neither Kenwright nor Wyness. So all your charges are way off the mark.However, yes, I do think that Kenwright, in particular, has done a decent job of getting Everton where we are today. He may not pick the team, but he provides the environment in which it all happens. So he should get some of the credit. Look at Tottenham and Newcastle (and of course Leeds) if you want to see clubs where real incompetence and worse in the Boardroom has hit the team on the pitch. And there is no evidence that Kenwright is in this for purely selfish financial motives. None whatsoever, and much evidence that he is not (he’s put his own money into the club after all). If he and Wyness were really desperate to get the Kirkby deal for their own interests, why on earth did they hold a vote? Just tell me that.Bill is not God and he is not the Devil. That’s actually all I am saying Michael. I still don’t know why you hate him with such a passion. Michael Tracey 87 Posted 14/09/2007 at 09:44:04 Report abuse Once again I don’t hate him at all. Actually I don’t think I hate anyone to be honest. I respect your opinion about the matter. This is what I love about these forums is that they let people put there 10 pents worth in. I don’t know why they gave us a vote Neil and I have stated previously that I think that is the stupidest thing that he has done in his whole time at the club! It automatically created division. I wish he had of just done it. At least all the fans would still be united. Maybe I have been a bit over the top about it but its only that because I love Everton (as you quite clearly do)and it has been such an important part of my life. We are special and I just don’t think that what is happening is right. People that follow Everton are all real supports. Because I mean really if it was just about success and all then everyone would follow the Red Shite, Manure and now the new flavour of the month Chelsea. I currently live in Laos and its funny to see all these people wearing kits from the above mentioned. They might have many people from around the world who do the same thing but went it comes down to it, We are Everton and you will only see an Everton shirt on an Everton fan.Heres to a new future for our Great Club. One name, one City, Liverpool. How about just One Name Everton.Cheers Neil Pearse 88 Posted 14/09/2007 at 10:30:22 Report abuse Cheers Michael! I enjoyed the exchange. Passion in the end is what it’s all about. Yep - whatever our differences, it really is One Everton in the end!My dad, another big Evertonian, always maintained that supporting Everton makes us all a bit deranged. Think he’s probably right!I have nephews now in Devon and in New York - they all support Chelsea, Manure, or the RS, and have all the shirts - what the fuck?Good luck in Laos! Terry"marsbar"Maddock 89 Posted 16/09/2007 at 13:17:04 Report abuse Neil Fitz:but the people eligable to vote were carefully selected by the board with the knowledge they would come back with a majority "Yes" vote!! well they fucked up there, apparently those nasty schemers sent ballots out to 11,000 yes voters as well...your so right Neil , they cant get nothing right..Bring back Johnson..and we can ask that nice mike walker to be manager..we always passed it on the floor when he was boss..and the end of season was so exciting..will we stay up..will we go down.oohh and none of this having to fork out for trips abroad....I right with you Neil.. © ToffeeWeb